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Tommy: Wait a minute! Crossface, the Daily Talk Show, a conversation sometimes worth recording with Josh Janson and Tommy Jackett.

Mason: It's a Daily Talk Show episode 169.

Josh: Happy Friday, everyone.

Tommy: I don't want to jinx this episode.

Josh: It's gonna be a good one.

Tommy: I have realised something, Josh. The place where I am right now doing this podcast, because if you've just tuned in, first episode out of 169 of them, Josh is overseas on a trip around Europe and I'm currently back in our hometown of Melbourne, but I'm at the foreshore at Brighton Beach. So, I'm just sitting in the car, but I've realised An episode from here has never gone live.

Josh: What do you mean?

Tommy: Oh yeah, I've done— I've— we haven't done an episode where we've recorded and it's successfully worked for a full half an hour. This is the spot. I've just realised because I've, I've talked about where, like, I've talked about a few things around my surroundings and I was like, I could talk about that again. And they're like, nah, it's already gone out. And then I thought, no, it hasn't because this is a spot where an episode has never been successful.

Josh: We talked a bit about Brighton Beach. We talked about the—

Tommy: No, no, no. That was Green Point. That was the car park.

Josh: Different spot. So, this is—

Tommy: Yeah. Sorry. When I say Brighton Beach, I mean Elwood. I can see Brighton Beach from where I am, but I'm at Elwood Beach.

Josh: Okay. And so, I can't remember what— Like, so for people who don't know, yeah, we've had A couple of it. We've probably lost maybe 3 episodes that we've had to completely can. Would that be about right? Over the last 2 and a bit months?

Tommy: Yeah. Which means we have to do pretty much 2 in a day because that even if we get through half of it and we lose it, it's pretty much like doing a full episode.

Josh: It's bullshit.

Tommy: Yeah. It's, it's currently 6 AM where I am and you've just arrived in Croatia.

Josh: Yeah, we're in Zadar, which is a small coastal town, and it is, uh, it is beautiful. We arrived on the bus and, um, from Ljubljana. The, the way, like, to remember Ljubljana at the beginning, I think we were saying Ljubljana or some shit, but I just broke down the word. Lube, lee, oh yeah, ana. It's very like, once you do that, it's a lot easier to, um, to remember.

Tommy: Or Lee and Lana love the lube.

Mason: There you go.

Josh: That's how it really does actually help, having those, uh, I'm impressed, those memory things. What are they called? Mon— mon— mnemonic device? What is it?

Tommy: Yeah, well, use whatever your technique is on that thing that you're talking about.

Josh: I just can't Pneumatic device. There we go. Everyone in their cars.

Tommy: Yeah. Something that triggers the memory.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: Something that triggers.

Mason: Yeah.

Tommy: Interesting. And what's the smell of wherever you are?

Josh: We're in Zadar right now.

Tommy: Zadar. Yeah. I always like when I go to, you know, like something that sticks out or can stick out is the kind of smell of a new place. You're in the summer of Oh, you're on the— actually, you're on the other side. So, you're sort of just on the back end of summer in Croatia. Is it like— what's the vibe there?

Josh: Perfect. Like, it's not too hot, not too cold. We arrived late-ish, so we arrived at 7:30 PM, and so we've had dinner. But yeah, it was a— it's perfect. The climate's perfect. The hard bit was getting here. Because JJ, in, you know, geek fashion, gets carsick sometimes. And it was windy roads, and we'd booked the first seats, like paid the extra €8 to be able to sit at the front. And it turns out that the seats at the front aren't actually at the front. It was the second ones in. And I haven't been motion sick really at all on this whole trip, but very close to vomited on the bus. So.

Tommy: And you've been on buses and shit through Positano, which is like wild.

Josh: Mm-hmm. Yeah, I think I was just like, I was actually, I felt before I even got onto the bus, I was feeling sick. But then, oh no, Bri gave me some medication that she'd gotten earlier in the trip in Singapore when she had food poisoning. And it was— I had the best sleep. I can understand why people get into medication, and I know the exact reason why I don't do it much, because I was like, man, that was such— like, it was— it blacked me, like, I could see black. I couldn't see any light. Um, and yeah, so I was, uh, I was thinking this, this could be a little life hack, just taking one of these when you need to go to sleep.

Tommy: What the fuck was in it? What, what did you take? I don't know.

Josh: It knocked me out though.

Mason: It's—

Tommy: you're probably super sensitive because like you said, you, you didn't take painkillers as a kid. You kind of have an aversion to them. What was the reason for you having an aversion?

Josh: I don't— like, my brother, he's probably— I reckon he was going through a stage of having like, you know, a Nurofen each morning type of thing. But no, I— it wasn't necessarily like— my parents aren't hippies. Your parents are hippies. Was your mum very sensitive to you not taking medication? Would you go to like a Chinese doctor?

Tommy: Oh, we kind of had a bit of both. But we always had Panadol in the house.

Josh: So good mix.

Tommy: Yeah, I definitely, yeah, it definitely wasn't a house that didn't have any actual hard drugs. I mean, hard drug being Panadol. Hard drugs. Hard drugs. Panadol or, uh, yeah, or Chinese medicine stuff.

Josh: Did you, what was the weirdest thing that, uh, ever like that you ever sort of did? Like that your mum— Did your mum ever take you to like a witch doctor or anything like that?

Tommy: No, I went to— She had this guy who was a Chinese doctor and he used to do a bunch of healing. He ended up dying of brain cancer, unfortunately. How horrible is that?

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: It's like a medicine man and then he gets struck down by that.

Josh: Seems like a common thing that happens. My mate Naysan. His dad was a doctor and was, um, you know, really sort of well respected as someone who went to Papua New Guinea and served there and looked after a bunch of people. And he went in for heart surgery and, um, never came back, you know, was unconscious. And he was unconscious for 2 years. And so the family, like Nay San and his family, would massage his dad each day to keep blood flow going and stuff like that, but he passed away. He was, you know, like a medical dude.

Tommy: Yeah, yeah, it's hard. I mean, it's like you see doctors that are overweight. There's a lot of doctors that are overweight. Doesn't mean that you're not in the— Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's a hard one. Um, I was walking yesterday in Collingwood, and there's this thing, and I don't know if you've, if you get like this, but there's a local business that it's a cafe and no one goes there and no one's been there since it opened. And I walk past and I look in and I just look at the guy who started it and I've seen him around and maybe I've built out the storey bigger than it is in my head. But I just look in and I just think, fuck, my heart breaks for this guy who's probably put all his chips on this, on this thing, on this business. I can't remember the name of the cafe. It's probably contributes to the reason why it's not really doing any good.

Josh: What street is it on for Collingwood folk?

Tommy: It's on Smith Street. And just for your context, and I guess people who live in Melbourne and Collingwood, it's near the pasta place. You know, the, Mama's Pasta.

Josh: Bria and I actually went there. It— He— I feel like they charged a lot for almond milk, but they were— I actually, I literally, we went there because the guy, he was open super early in the morning and no one was there. And it made me feel like I get sort of a sick, sad feeling whenever I see, especially restaurants and cafes, because you think like, You hear those stories, it's like, oh, you know, they've taken their, you know, big loan out to, you know, finance the fit out or whatever it is. It's depressing.

Tommy: Oh, and, and so you feel it too when you go in?

Josh: Yeah. Oh, I just— yeah, it's, it's a, um, I definitely like any small business that's not busy and doesn't have people in there. I just, um You know, I just, I just look at the amount of shops that are out and about and you just do the math and it's like, how are, how are they surviving?

Tommy: Oh, totally. I built the storey in my head that he's a drug dealer laundering money just to make myself feel better. Yeah, it actually was like, at least he felt better. Well, at least he's got a profitable business that he's needing to, uh, clean the money through, um, a business like the cafe. But the, the guy was doing like He, one week, had a bain-marie out the front trying to, trying to do like different, you know, different bits and pieces. And it's, oh my God.

Josh: I can understand. Like it's got that same level of empathy, doesn't it?

Tommy: Yeah, but it was hard. And I think, you know, as a business owner, I look at that stuff and for that kind of business where you're relying on people coming to you. It's such an old sort of model of, you know, where we actively pursuing and not relying on people walking into our office, you know, to land work. And we can't, you know, we can travel for our work to, you know, move it around. It's such a, it's an old model that just is scary. And it's like, I don't know. I don't know who thinks it's a great idea. It's like 1 in, I think it's like 1 in, 2 in 3 cafes fail.

Josh: Yeah. I mean, that doesn't surprise me. I think the—

Tommy: Something ridiculous.

Josh: I think that I even get sad when, or guilty, if I go to a cafe that has cheaper coffee. There's one specifically in Abbotsford that I go to. The people are super nice. But I get really guilty when I use their cards where, you know, you get stamps and all that sort of thing. Loyalty cards.

Tommy: Yes.

Josh: And when it comes to the free coffee, I feel bad every single time getting the free coffee. I feel like maybe I shouldn't even get the free coffee. I should just let it go.

Tommy: No, that's ridiculous. You've earned that. You've purchased.

Josh: They come around so quickly.

Tommy: 10 or whatever you need.

Josh: No, they give one every 2, 3, every like 5 coffees. It's literally, it's like Bree and I would go there 3 times. Every time, every 4th time we go there, we would get a free coffee.

Tommy: It would average your coffees out to be what, $3.20 each, which is probably what they should be.

Josh: But they don't even charge extra for almond milk and they use Milk Lab, which is like the best milk. Almond milk you can get as far as I'm concerned.

Tommy: But I've been to that hipster joint. That's fine. They're not struggling. I think there's something about—

Josh: This is the one that's like got the— I mean, you probably think that they're hipsters, but no, it's like an older, like Greek lady. It's got like a really nice vibe, that one.

Tommy: And yeah, yeah, on the corner, they sell the sandwiches as well. 'Nah, they're good. Nah, they're not, they're not struggling. They're okay.' I think there's— the problem is when something doesn't catch on, like a business like this, guys, it's just a— it's like a self-fulfilling prophecy. But no one's coming in. It's like the chance of actually getting people, converting people now, that like— as if I'm the only one who walks past that place and doesn't I purposefully don't make eye contact with this bloke who owns it. So I feel bad for him. There would be a bunch of people that work around that area and then you just like avoiding it. And you, it's like the uncomfortable feeling I would feel. I think that's what it is. I think about how I feel and I could imagine it's like 10x for him. Right. Do you, do you think like embarrassing or something?

Josh: Do you think that, um, We're going to look back at our lives and think how ridiculous it was how much we spent on coffee. Like, like, I just feel like in, in the history books, they're gonna be like, yeah, they paid, like, coffee only costs like 40 cents to make, but then everyone would spend $6. Like, surely that's going to be, we're going to look back at that and think we're pretty stupid.

Tommy: I think it's going to get worse before it gets better. You know how I went a couple of weeks ago to that coffee roasting factory to make that video?

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: About that business. The guy who I met, I just got this little taste of the sort of world that he's in, and I really want to have him on the podcast. He was super interesting and he has just a— it's almost like an inside look at, you know, he's the guy that creates the coffee that everyone's drinking around Melbourne or, you know, some, a big portion of the coffee everyone's drinking around Melbourne in Australia. But just the vibe of, um, just sort of what, how, how deep this goes from a money perspective. Like it's such big business. And so I think that's going to keep it going for quite some time before we see people real, and people are addicted to this shit. So it's like my coffee habits got so much worse. So, I think it's still— I don't think it will be awakened anytime soon.

Josh: What about like making your own coffee, though? Like, it's so much cheaper to make your own coffee fresh than it is to buy like at a café, right?

Tommy: Yeah, 100%. I think we're going to— for our office, we'll have like a Moka Master. Yeah, or that kind of brewed style coffee, you still need to buy the roasted beans, but you probably have—

Josh: There is still a cup or something at the high end, right? Versus, you know, paying a few bucks at a cafe.

Tommy: The experience though is too great for people. I, I think it's, it's like little communities, people come together. 100%. And you don't even like socializing, but you still like going to a coffee shop to get a cup of coffee. I've got you as well.

Josh: I just— for the coffee. So I've gone the other way around. Like, I, I just see it as like, okay, if people are going to be around, I'll deal with it because coffee is going to be there.

Tommy: You may as well. Yeah. It's, um, surprisingly, I don't think— it would be hard. Like, how much money are people really making from coffee after power bills? Oh, that is one thing the guy said. That I met, he said, you know, people are very concerned about coffee cups and the issue with the environment, right? Which is a, you know, it's a legitimate concern because there is hundreds of thousands of these things going out. But you see, what people don't think about is the power bills and the power consumption of all of these coffee machines around Australia because they suck a hell of a lot of power. Oh, interesting. And so, yeah, it's one thing that we— you wouldn't really, you know, the power and the water, huge amounts, huge amounts. So like 7-Eleven, all the, you know, these companies that are doing this dollar coffees, like there is a lot of power going to these little machines every single day, 24 hours a day in some cases.

Josh: It's like, um, watching that documentary, I think it was Cowspiracy, that was talking about The impact of changing your light globes, which has been this big campaign that we've, you know, all followed along with and changed our light globes to be more energy efficient. Or changing our taps, like our shower heads, from the awesome rain style ones that feel awesome to the shitty environmental ones that feels like you're getting stabbed in the fucking back. And, uh, it turns out that we're, you know, it's like 50% of all of this energy and shit's coming from the meat consumption.

Tommy: Yeah.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: I mean, it's, we are definitely advertised to, uh, be influenced into what we should be caring about as well. And so there is a lot of stuff that we're not seeing. Um, just, just an update, Josh, on where I am. It's become light now. And, um, I'm getting quite a few stares from people who are riding past or exercising, running along the beach. I've got a pair of big—

Josh: We need like a sign, the Daily Talk Show sign that you can just have illuminated so people know.

Tommy: It's a great idea. I know you wanted to get the car stickers. Maybe we could settle for a magnetised thing that can be taken on and off.

Josh: That wouldn't be a bad idea. Hey, I was actually, I'm subscribed to this, uh, email newsletter called Pod News, which is done by this, um, podcasting radio dude. It's very, very informative, but they've done a whole, um, bit on the latest one about how fucked the iTunes charts are and how basically what's been happening they did this whole comparison and working out who's paying to be able to get, basically to game the system and to get on the top charts.

Tommy: Oh, um, you don't care. Is this, is it a similar thing to the New York Times bestseller?

Josh: Yeah, well, it's, it's not too dissimilar. So what's happening, people are just going to Fiverr, you spend $250 and there's a dude in Bangladesh that that has hundreds of, um, iPhones, and they literally just— a team of people go in and subscribe. And the point the guy was making who did sort of this exposé was that, um, subscription— like subscribing on iTunes seems to be the metric that they used. So for a long time I thought it was reviews and ratings and stuff like that, but What he was able to show was that these people in the top 200 on iTunes that have like, like 5 ratings. So, um, he was—

Mason: but it was basically pointing out the fact that Apple have done a little bit like they've neglected podcasts in a lot of ways when you think about their podcast— podcasting software like iTunes.

Tommy: Yeah, it's— people always work this out. I think for the huge businesses, we always think— well, I know I do think that they've got their shit together.

Mason: Yeah.

Tommy: But then they just— you hear this kind of stuff, it's like, how much— how big is that company? How many people are working there? And how much of an oversight is that to just have people be able to game it?

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: I think, I think they're moving so fast they create this stuff and then they just— it's almost like it helps them. They rely on people working this shit out because then they're like, okay, that's where we weren't looking. Well, that's our, that's our blind spot.

Mason: There needs to be a level of accountability, right? Like, um, I wonder how much the, you know, the chat— like, because I've been thinking, I to and fro from this stuff where I, I I look at the numbers, I look at the metrics. We don't have that impressive numbers in a lot of regards, you know. We by no means have a huge subscription base, but what I'm proud of is that we're building every single, you know, episode. We, we, we're slowly gaining an audience, and I think that the way that we've approached it, which is like not trying to be a thing that we're not. Like, there's some— like, one of the podcasts I love, uh, Shameless, that's by, um, Mish and Zara. I think Mish listens to the show sometimes. And, um, they've gotten a great following and they're going up the ranks. And the reason is they've created a podcast that's specifically around a topic that people are into. It's like around reality stuff, and it's Their tagline is it's like, you know, like smart conversations around dumb shit, basically. So like, you know, having smart conversations around reality shows.

Tommy: It's actually crazy because our show's the reverse. Dumb conversations around smart shit. That's so shit.

Mason: It's fucking true. But like, it is, it's harder for us to um, to sort of sell what we're doing as a concept, I think.

Tommy: Yeah, there is a, a rapper, um, hip-hop dude.

Mason: I probably know it.

Tommy: You wouldn't know about it.

Josh: I would. Who is it?

Mason: Eminem?

Tommy: Russ.

Mason: Oh yeah, Russ Keys.

Tommy: No, Russ. He's a, um, Russell, a dude from— I think his name's Russell, but when you say it like that, it takes away the coolness of his brand, which is just Russ. He's not— no surname. I don't see surname, but he released a song a day for like 80 days on SoundCloud years and years ago. And he's made— he's done like 11 albums and he's, he's made it now. Gary Vee's like huge on him, loves him. Yeah, it's probably because of his, his work ethic, but But I was listening to an interview last night of his. He's dropping a new album, I think today. And he was saying that they were saying like, was there a moment like where it just like blew up for you? And he's like, no, it didn't. It was like this slow burn. I did so many projects and I just, I had a following that sort of, when I started the SoundCloud stuff, he got, he already had a, you know, maybe 1,000 people that would listen to his music, a small little thing. But he just said it just slowly, slowly started to build, which is just another way of doing it. I think everyone looks for that, that hockey stick growth, that explosive moment. But if you just like, it's similar to what Will was saying about this show, if you can, and it is one way of doing it, but fuck, it's painful because you, you, you, it, it's more impactful when you do have that big growth moment.

Josh: I guess.

Tommy: But if the other option is slowly.

Josh: Why are you doing it?

Mason: Yeah, why are we doing this show? What's the answer for you?

Tommy: I love getting up at 6:00, 5:30 AM to leave my baby and go to 7-Eleven, get a coffee and come down to the beach and do a podcast. That's pretty much why. No, no, I think it's, um, you mentioned your sort of goal for this year was creative momentum and I like the benefit of your goal because it has, it feels it's increased my communication skills. It's increased my creativity. It's nice to commit to something and actually, you know, fulfil that commitment each day. And it makes you proud. Like, so there is a heap of rewards to this. And it's hard. Like, I think when you do push through something that is hard, not every day it's hard, but there is that reward on the other side. So there's so many reasons why. And I think it's, it's nice. It's like this has, doing this podcast has changed what I'm now doing work-wise, cause we're starting our business together and it's like, you can't, that's what happens when you get to work.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: Things. Start to happen and you start to connect dots or form a new pathway or direction in something. It's the only way, I think, to do that stuff.

Mason: And I think it's not taking any— like, because I think that the bit that I'm torn in is like, I think even though I have that sort of opinion around the charts, I also think it's like amazing. It's like, it's a, uh, there's lots of different ways to measure things And, um, you know, for instance, for what Shameless are doing, like, that is, that is such a strong success metric because they're doing something for a big group of people and they're getting that traction. And it's like, I couldn't be happier for independent people to be publishing content and being in the same places as, you know, some of the biggest media companies. Um, I think that What can happen is for other podcasters or anything in life, I think that we can see the success that other people are having and say, "Okay, well, what do we need to do to get that success?" Versus remembering why you're doing it in the first place. And the more— when I remember why we're doing it. For me it becomes so much easier, which is, you know, the reason that we're doing this is to connect, you and I to connect, to be able to synthesise our thoughts, to have something consistent, and to also be able to, you know, share this experience with other people too. And that doesn't have to be thousands of people. Uh, you know, that could be literally having 20, 30, 50 people. That I, I, you know, I'm stoked with the idea that anyone listens to us.

Tommy: Yeah, I remember feeling a similar way when I was, you know, a year and a half into doing Radio and Shepard, and I thought, fuck, I've actually got good— how much I was reflecting on when I first started to now and how I could complete a show. Or for you and I, it's like the being able to do 30 minutes of a conversation with each other is so easy now in terms of like we can get through it.

Mason: Yeah.

Tommy: If you know, if the level of how great it is, um, you know, aside just being able to talk for 30 minutes to each other. I remember at the start of this journey, it was like, it was hard. And then you kind of get to this thing, it's like 30 minutes is so easy. And, um, I was like, I wonder if that's— that thinking can sort of be detrimental to, you know, how great you could get. Because I think people could be like, oh, now this is fucking easy, and they just hone in on that feeling where it's like it might get in the way of the quality of something. But I do like doing something so much that you're like, fuck, this is, this is good, and then the bar's higher.

Josh: And I think it's always a different thing. You start focusing on different things.

Mason: And I think for us, we have a long-term, you know, sort of strategy. And so that means if we're willing to do 5, 10 years— like, if we do— like, you know, some of the biggest radio shows have been going for 10+ years. And so, if— think about if this is year 1 of 10 years, you know, like it's a— I think you start to think about things in a different way. Are you taking a photo for Instagram?

Tommy: Yeah, I am.

Mason: Perfect.

Tommy: I just—

Mason: the—

Tommy: this sand sweeper just went past, I thought. Little content opportunity, ABC.

Mason: I've always be contenting, as Leon Shergrin says. It's a daily talk show. Anything else, TJ, before we head off for Friday, for the end of Friday?

Tommy: Mate, I'm looking forward to— I'm going away for the weekend, uh, so should be a few stories. I'm really looking forward to having a campfire with my son, just sitting around watching a little fire. I don't know how he'll go, he'll probably want to go touch it, but, um, you can't do that, mate. He'll burn himself. But yeah, marshmallows, that's a great idea. Get him on a sugar high around fire. Good one, Josh, great parenting.

Josh: But what, like, isn't that the whole—

Mason: like, for me, um, I don't know if this is too sort of, uh, being Americanizing things too much, but creating s'mores Getting a bit of chocolate marshmallows, a little biscuit.

Tommy: He's too young. He's only 19 months. You're not doing it for him.

Josh: You're doing it for you. Do it for me.

Tommy: The reality will be I'll set up the fire and he'll hang around for 3 minutes and want to go inside just because he's bored. And so Amy and him will go inside and I'll sit out there by myself around a fire.

Mason: Sounds amazing. So, where are you headed off to?

Tommy: Oh, Echuca, which is a couple— 2.5 hours from Melbourne. It's up near the river, the Murray River, the divide between New South Wales and Victoria.

Mason: Yeah, a great spot. I was filming there the end of last year for a documentary. It's a— Guessing it'll be pretty chilly still.

Tommy: Yeah, I think it's, uh, it's, it's starting to warm up here in Melbourne. And when I say warm, getting to 20 degrees feels like it's—

Josh: Oh, that's good.

Tommy: Summer again in comparison to it being 2 degrees. But it's kind of— it's currently freezing. I'm freezing in the car.

Mason: Amazing. Well, I better let you go. It's The Daily Talk Show, everyone. Hi@thedailytalkshow.com if you want to send us an email. And, uh, I'm off. And, uh, to explore Croatia. Well, I'm actually off to bed, but I'll be doing that and I'll report back Monday. And we'll be hearing all about your campfire—

Josh: fucking, what do you want to call it?

Mason: Campfire expedition antics. Antics. Yeah, there you go.

Josh: Have a good one, guys.

Tommy: See ya.