Mirte Van Der Lugt - Taking a pill

Mirte: Wait a minute!

Tommy: Crossface! The Daily Talk Show, a conversation sometimes worth recording with Josh Janson and Tommy Jacklin.

Josh: Hello, it's The Daily Talk Show. We've got Mirta. Mirta, how do you say your last name again?

Mirte: Von der Lucht.

Josh: Vanderloch.

Tommy: I just learned something, you're part Dutch, Josh?

Josh: Yeah, my pa was Dutch, he still is Dutch but he's dead. But yeah, no, I—

Tommy: We'll dedicate this app to you.

Josh: Yeah, to pa. So getting into the Dutch roots.

Tommy: Yeah, well, I've got no idea what heritage I have, but I don't look Australian, do I?

Josh: I don't know, the beard's kind of going on.

Tommy: I'm gonna say I'm Dutch too. So there's 3 Dutch in a room, so how are we guys?

Josh: The 3 Dutch.

Mirte: You fixed my first name as well, because wait, how did you just say that?

Josh: Myrta.

Mirte: Myrta.

Josh: Have I fucked that too?

Mirte: Myrta.

Josh: Myrta. So M-I-R-T-E, Myrta.

Tommy: Myrta. What stuff-ups have you had people say when they're reading that one?

Mirte: Marita. Like, that's beautiful. And the most best, the best way is very Australian, Mira.

Josh: Mira.

Mirte: I'm like, I'm gonna bullshit that thing.

Tommy: So English second language for you?

Mirte: Yes. Yeah, yeah.

Tommy: So can we just convert? Can we just do this in Dutch?

Josh: I know nothing. Wow. I know nothing, man. I would love to learn another language.

Tommy: Yeah, I feel very—

Mirte: That's what all Australians say and nobody does it. Everybody also from America is like, I would love to learn French. Nobody says I would love to learn Dutch though. That's not really a language on anyone's list.

Tommy: I had a girlfriend years ago and her father was Dutch and I remember he had a bit of an attitude and—

Josh: He had an attitude?

Tommy: Maybe it was because you were fucking his daughter. But anyway, it was— I spoke to my dad, he said, oh yeah, you know, they have a reputation, the Dutch men. Is this a thing? Did you know about that?

Mirte: In what way?

Tommy: To be a bit standoffish? Arrogant's probably not the best word, but it's like—

Mirte: Arrogant is actually the word that I would say.

Tommy: Okay, yeah, yeah, I mean, I wanted you to say it, not me.

Mirte: I think that the Dutch tend to be be quite inclusive, but I do think that there is an arrogance. And with men, yes, I think so. And so how— I don't think it's meant to be arrogance, but I think it comes across as arrogance.

Tommy: Yeah, but that's the— how do you think the men got that? How did you think that's come about from, you know, your on-the-ground research living—

Josh: you're out owning it.

Mirte: It's like, oh, oh, you guys, like, don't dare.

Josh: True.

Mirte: There is a real, in our culture, culture, there is a real thing about, like, you know how sport is a real big thing here?

Tommy: Bloody oath.

Mirte: Yeah, it's so bloody oath. It's such a, like, also in school it seems like, you know, the cool kids do sports or footy and all that kind of stuff.

Josh: Yeah, the cool—

Mirte: I feel that a lot of the— it's very cool in Holland to be smart. So if you do good, if you get good grades, if you become like, you know, an academic, that's seen as very cool. So I think that comes with a little bit of arrogance, as in, okay, I need to be learned. Yeah, you know, I, I know what I'm talking about, like that, that kind of attitude.

Tommy: Yeah, Josh's vibes. Well, I'm superior thinking. It's all right, I play footy.

Josh: No, I remember having my— uh, no, I remember we had some Dutch relatives and we would constantly get into fights. Like, I remember mum got into a big fight with one of them about, um, is it a fight though or a discussion? It's a heated discussion that you're not used to though, right?

Mirte: Like in Australia?

Josh: Yeah, well, especially when someone's coming and staying at your house and then all of a sudden like mum is having this biff with the guy about fluoride in the water.

Tommy: Really?

Josh: Yeah, that's interesting. Because he was saying how bad it is.

Tommy: Outraged.

Josh: Mum's a dental nurse and she was saying like teeth have never been better, or some bullshit.

Tommy: Outrageous.

Mirte: Again, you know, here, like, what I— one of the things I found difficult when I came over here is that the Dutch love a discussion, right? And it's almost, you know, when you're sitting around the table with everybody, the Australians have this real mateship. If you don't agree with me, oh, you know, are we mates? Like, this is like a bit awkward. Like, this is confronting that you don't agree with my point of view. But in Holland, it's almost if you straight away agree with everybody, it's like, oh, you're holding back, man. There's something— this is not right. Like, you're— so it's encouraged to have a different opinion. So you often will see in conversations that somebody will just take the counterpoint just to have that discussion.

Josh: That's so interesting because I miss— yeah, because I feel like I definitely have been in taxis or stuff like that and they'll say something racist, and in that moment, like, they're like, oh, you know, the fucking Lebanese. And in that moment, I'm like, yeah, fucking Lebanese.

Mirte: Because you, as an Australian, you— yeah. You align with it just to not have the confrontation of owning it. Yeah, so I'll lean into it.

Josh: Yeah, you're a good lean into.

Mirte: Tell me what, why is that?

Tommy: So what is it? Her nickname, pushback Mita.

Josh: Pushback Mita.

Tommy: Anything you say, she'll push back on.

Josh: So Mita and I, like to explain for people how Mita and I know each other. Mita is the creative director of Hey Tiger, which is such a big deal 'cause if you look at any of their stuff, Everyone's always talking about the branding, the Instagram, all that sort of thing. Mute is behind that.

Mirte: Only launched in March too.

Josh: I know, it's crazy.

Mirte: It's going well.

Josh: And so Bree was working at Hey Tiger and now we're travelling and—

Tommy: She didn't get fired.

Josh: She didn't get fired.

Tommy: She's left to go on a full month holiday.

Mirte: I'm so nervous about it. This is gonna be her first week without. I'm so nervous.

Josh: It'll be fine. But yeah, so, but the funny thing is that Whilst Myrta is the creative director, we worked out, out of coincidence, I was looking at some old, I was looking at, you know, I love a bit of nostalgia. I was looking at like old lists and it has a photo like of a course that I did at VCA Film and TV. And there's like a photo of Myrta and I saw like the last name. I'm like, oh, that's a Dutch last name.

Tommy: How do you say that, Josh? What's her last name? How do you say her last name?

Mirte: It's actually Spits van der Lucht.

Josh: The funny thing is Bree tried to teach me before we got here and it was nothing like what it is.

Tommy: Just own the stuff up. And so you got, what year was that?

Josh: That would have been 2007.

Mirte: That would have been like 11, 10 years ago or something. So then you called me or you messaged me like, we need to, I need to like tell you something.

Josh: I was like on the DMs, I slid into her DMs. I was like, man, this is crazy.

Tommy: And so you guys didn't, do you remember, were you working together? Did you?

Josh: Well, I was uni. Uni up. I was like.

Mirte: I don't really remember. That sounds real bad. No, but we— it was, it was a foundation course at VCA, and we all kind of had our own groups and stuff that we did films with. We probably did something together. Yeah, we did. Then, then he— oh, have you spoken about this story?

Josh: Oh, that's the Todd Winkler story, the murderer. Yeah.

Tommy: Oh yes, we've talked on the podcast.

Mirte: Oh my God. So he says, call me, I have a big storey to tell you.

Tommy: So you were in the murderer's class?

Mirte: No. Yeah, and I did a film with him and everything. Like, it was This is crazy.

Tommy: Wow. So just to summarize, someone I went to school with killed his wife.

Josh: Yeah, his wife.

Mirte: Most likely his previous wife as well. Yeah.

Tommy: Oh my.

Mirte: Go on YouTube and watch that. There's a whole documentary about it.

Josh: Yeah. I mean, it might just turn on, by the way.

Tommy: It could be, if you go back to VCR, it could be your next film. He's really just—

Josh: I found some, um—

Mirte: And then I just, like, I just found a list that he added me on Facebook, which is like probably Facebook saw that I searched for him after you told the storey and then like suggested, oh, remember that he asked you to become friends? I'm like, Facebook?

Tommy: Oh my God, I wonder what—

Josh: I wonder what the deal is when someone goes into jail. Like, because there's, there's literally— you go onto his Facebook profile and the last status is, seriously, Todd is in jail. It's had zero likes, obviously, but someone was—

Mirte: seriously?

Josh: Yeah, do you remember? Yeah. They did a bunch of like Facebook posts. I won't bore you with them, but they literally went through and was saying, no, uh, Todd has been arrested or something like that. Yeah, but I wonder what happened. It's like when someone dies, like, have you thought about that? Like, when we die, what's gonna happen?

Mirte: Some of them, they use them. I've seen that happen, and some people use it as a memorial type thing. Yeah, so people go there and sometimes post, or the family really use it.

Tommy: Oh, I've got friends that their pages are still up and Every year it's just like people are piling onto it. It's full on. You can request to have them remove the family and take down pages. But, um, it's going a bit dark here, isn't it?

Josh: Well, we also— Misha and I also have something in common, which we started like video stuff young. You were like— I reckon the similarities, uh, both started like editing and stuff when we were 12 years old. And, um, you were actually— were you diagnosed with ADHD?

Mirte: Yeah, I was.

Josh: I was never diagnosed, but it was a threat every day. It was pretty fucking obvious. It was literally a threat. My mum would threaten to medicate me all the time. She was like, if you don't behave, we're going to the doctors and we're getting you sorted out.

Mirte: So with me, it was the opposite.

Josh: Really?

Tommy: Well, yeah, my teachers threatened me.

Mirte: Yeah, so nobody threatened me with it. It was more that eventually, like, I was kicked out— not kicked out, but I was a fucking difficult student. Like, I always was having arguments with the teachers, and I think in the end it came out that I actually was quite smart, but they thought I was dumb, but I was bored, you know.

Tommy: But, um, just sounds like Holland. Yeah, just push back. Whatever they're saying, I don't believe what you're saying.

Mirte: I'm not gonna get into the whole school system, but it's just like my blood is boiling. Yeah, so much anger. But eventually I was gonna get kicked out of my school. Basically said she's not even going to finish in like 4 years, like she's never gonna be able to do this.

Josh: Was this high school or was it?

Mirte: Yeah, this was my second high school. And then I said, you know what, I wanna try Ritalin. And I never had tried it before. And that was an instant change. And I finished it in like 2 years after that.

Josh: And you finished as in finish school or finish the Ritalin?

Mirte: Finish school like that and then went to the next level and stuff. So Ritalin definitely saved me. I stopped taking it now only this year actually.

Josh: Really?

Mirte: Yeah.

Tommy: 'Cause we were having a meeting the other week and about some video work that we're doing and you just dropped in there, we're talking about the healthcare of Holland versus Australia. It's much better over there.

Josh: So Holland is a specific area of the Netherlands, is that right? Or what's the difference between?

Mirte: Yeah, so there's a bit of confusion between the Netherlands and Holland. It's the same thing. Holland is a part of the Netherlands. So you got North Holland and South Holland and then Amsterdam is, basically it's provinces. And Amsterdam is in one of those, but it also used to be— ah, no, I'm not going to go into it.

Tommy: This is probably one of those things. Is it your hometown, Holland? Was that where you—

Josh: are you from? Do you say you're from Holland?

Mirte: You say you're from the Netherlands. It's just sadly because of English people having taken on the word Holland, I make the mistake sometimes as well. And some people, when you say I'm from the Netherlands, they look at you weird, and you say Holland, they're like, ah, yes, now I know.

Tommy: Yeah, yeah.

Mirte: So it's just a weird thing.

Tommy: Yeah, so healthcare, we're discussing much better in the Netherlands than Australia, but you said something like, oh yeah, I was taking ADHD, my ADHD tablets were cheaper.

Mirte: Everything is kind of, so you in the Holland, it's required, how do you say, sometimes like it's obligated, you're obligated to have healthcare.

Josh: So, it's a standard thing.

Mirte: Yeah, it's a standard thing, so you have to pay for it and you, so here you get Medicare like for free, right? In Holland you have to have healthcare, you have to pay for it. But, and even if you like, let's say you guys move to the Netherlands and you've lived there for 5 years, um, and then you're like, oh, I should probably get healthcare, you get fined for those 5 years that you haven't had it. So it's like, it's obligated, right? However, then everything is kind of taken care of. Like, if I would go to the— I would never pick up my card. Now here I go to the doctors and I wanted to walk out and they're like, hey, excuse me, come back, you need 'No, I got private.' And they're like, 'Yeah, so you still have to pay like 80% or something.' What, some mad number.

Tommy: Yeah, it's a bit ridiculous here. And so when you started taking the tablets, 'cause I'm sure I probably could have taken them too, but I don't know. What did it do?

Mirte: Look, psychology-wise, you can almost look at it two ways, right? I made a decision that I wanted to make a change, so that probably helped me as well. The fact that I actually, I basically was like, I'm gonna now, it's no longer the fault of my teachers if I fuck this up, it's my fault. So I need to make a decision to commit. But at the same time, I also went on Ritalin and Ritalin definitely does, if you have ADHD, not if you don't, because otherwise it just like, let's go party. Like it's speed, right? In the end it's speed. But for a company with ADHD, it does baseline you. So you are finally able to concentrate. And the way ADHD works is, not only you're hyperactive, which is I think a little bit of a misconception that ADHD is just, um, hyperactiveness, it's also the inability to make decisions. So your brain sends like, okay, I want to do this, or I have a list of things to do, but the receivers are muddled because, ah, I can't really explain the full process. But it's also decision-making. So a lot of people with ADHD, they know they have to-do list to do, and they can literally sit on the couch like still and they can't move because the decision-making process is impaired by ADHD. I don't know if I'm right.

Tommy: Josh's word, that's procrastination.

Josh: Man, I reckon I've got, I've 100% got it.

Mirte: Oh, I know as well, look at you.

Josh: No, but it's like, but the idea of medication, like what was the weaning off process? Like what made you decide To not have it? To not do the meds?

Mirte: I think it gives me anxiety.

Josh: Yeah.

Mirte: So I already, I think I am already like a person that has a lot of anxiety and doubt and goes into my own head a little bit too much. And Ritalin does, it's speed, right? It's like coffee. It does add to your stress hormones and everything. So I do feel that since I've been off it, I've been a lot more like a happy person, I feel. But look, it helped. I struggle a little bit with making it sound bad because it did help me as a child for very, very long. It helped me in early stage of my career as well. So it's just like now I'm done.

Josh: So you, are you less focused now? Happier but less focused?

Mirte: I think I need to work harder on my habit. So I create like a habit process as in like, okay, in the morning I wake up at 5 and like I have the things that I do in the morning and then I have like a coffee, my nasty coffee.

Josh: It sounded like a coffee.

Tommy: I live like that stuff and I'm like a breakfast radio. It's in a bag. Well, that's fancy.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: All of the powdered crap.

Josh: Well, I think it's like basically, I think it's the same sort of shit, right? They just put it in a bag now so you can't see the instant coffee.

Mirte: I'm so about health and when this is like so like the opposite of what I love it. Anyways, you know, it's just about creating habits, but it's procrastination is a hard thing. But it's just, at one point you need to do it without, right? You need to come up with ways that work for you. And we all have that shit.

Tommy: Is there anything that you did like a physical activity or something that stimulates your mind that has sort of helped?

Mirte: Yeah. Oh, I think meditation is a really good thing. I'm doing a little bit less now, but I do yoga every morning and I do exercise obviously like running and stuff like that.

Tommy: And that helps?

Mirte: I feel all of those things help. So if you're going, if you are on, If you're on Ritalin and wanting to go, wanting to go off it, I think exercise, meditation, and creating like healthy habits is like how to do it, I feel. And I think that's for everyone really.

Tommy: But the problem is that taking a pill is easier.

Josh: But that's like anything, right? Like even headaches and shit, like that.

Mirte: But that's what I mean. So it's a hard thing to say. It's just, I know that kids can also substitute Ritalin for meditation. I know there's courses to to do that.

Tommy: Yeah, that's cool. And was any of this stuff talked about when you were on it as a kid back in the Netherlands?

Mirte: No. And also not the— I remember coming back after a run, I was still living with my parents, that would have been, I don't know, probably around the age of 16 or I don't know, something like that. And I just went for a run and I came back and I was really angry and I was like, I'm so focused and concentrated now, why did the doctors never tell me I could also go for a run instead of taking a pill, right? And I was really pissed off about that. About it. Um, but my parents did say back then, I think they probably did say that, you just weren't listening, right? So you're right, it's easier to take a pill than it is to make those healthy choices.

Josh: Yes. How do you work with other people? Like, because obviously you can control your internal stuff, but I think that like what stresses me out is when my procrastination affects other people, or if I'm like trying to commute. It's that whole thing that you talk about where it's like, you know, the things that you need to do. And so sometimes I'm like, okay, I'm gonna do the thing, but then I forget to communicate that I'm doing the thing. Or I'm like, someone would say, hey, it's all about communication. So I'll spend all my time in the email like communicating that I'm doing the thing rather than doing the thing. Like how have you dealt within the context of like working with others?

Mirte: Hmm. Good question. I like working from home and having that balance. I work from home at least 2 days a week, and then I'm in the office for like 3 or 2 and a half, and then it's all meetings, meetings, meetings, and communicate. Um, I don't know, the communication part I don't think I have that much trouble with. Procrastination I, I definitely have.

Josh: Yeah. How do you communicate your procrastination? I like—

Mirte: because I feel I'm just trying to fix the press— I know my procrastination, that it comes from a fear of failure. I know that it comes from that. So generally, what I'm trying to do, and I'm getting a little bit better at it now, is that if I'm procrastinating with something, I literally walk away from it and I'm like, what, what, what is worrying you here? So I go through that, I'm like talking to myself and I'm like, I'm going through this thing. And then I most often will find that I am afraid that something will happen that will make it bad and therefore people will judge me and therefore I'm not to be loved. And generally when I come to that point, I walk back and it's fine. But I found in the last, probably in this year really, that it comes down to that I'm afraid of failing. My procrastination generally comes from an underlying fear.

Josh: What about like small tasks? I struggle with like the creative stuff, the things that I'm like getting fulfilled on, that's really easy. The shit that's just like—

Mirte: Yeah, that doesn't feel that important. Yeah, yeah. I really struggle when I feel when I'm doing something that really actually isn't that important, and I think I try to delegate that. Yeah, I know, but then again, we have to do some stuff.

Tommy: Yeah, exactly, you've got to do the boring stuff too.

Mirte: I think we all have that as well. It's not really just—

Josh: Well, I think that's part of the thing is like for— because I reckon when you have been doing it for a while, like, because I started so young, I think that I've got all this— it's almost like a bad golf swing, you know? Like, it's hard to, like, using it, you know, like golf, you know, you play golf.

Mirte: I know golf, thanks.

Tommy: Do you have that in the Netherlands?

Josh: Just fucking mansplaining on the sport. JJ having a go at sport. Woof woof. 'Cause you know, there's golf, right? We all play it. You play golf?

Tommy: Josh loves metaphors. So he's referring to the person that's played golf for years and has got a fixed swing.

Josh: Oh, swing as in like— So the thing is, and so I reckon—

Mirte: See, that was obvious.

Josh: You said the exact same thing. Mansplaining the mansplaining. The thing is that it's the, yeah, I reckon the longer that you've been doing it for, you sort of pick up all these little nuances and habits and things. Yeah, bad habits for sure. And then all of a sudden you realize— and like, one thing that I've noticed is the, the things that, like, you— I heard this great quote which was, um, time is the fuel of fear. And for me, so many— like, even just finishing up work tomorrow, and I'm— I've been met with all of these things I've been putting off, and I've realised that there's been stuff that I've put off for a month that's taken me less than 20 minutes to do.

Mirte: Yes, but that's because it's already— you've stopped, you didn't do it because it's part of your habit of pushing it away. But that's like how your brain works, right? Like, you know, like a, like a field of high grass or something, right? And you have a little barrel in the middle of that field and you go from your, your farm to that barrel the same way every time. So over time that grass goes flat, right? And it creates a path, right? And that's your habit path. Path. And that's what you always do. And then you decide, ah, actually it's, I'm gonna go this way this time. So it's like you're going left instead of right. So it takes a lot of time to create a new path to go over that grass again. Right. So that's the first thing you need to spend a lot of time creating that new path. But the hardest thing is that that other path now needs time to grow over with new grass. Right. But that takes a lot of time. So it's very easy for your mind to go back to your old habit because that's it's not grown over yet.

Tommy: 100%.

Mirte: It's just time.

Tommy: And then you're scared of getting bitten by a snake going through the new grass.

Mirte: That sucks.

Tommy: It's all scary. Is it raining? Yeah, it's— yeah, we're like—

Mirte: there is— it's—

Tommy: yeah, we're our own worst enemy to our— to ourselves in our mind.

Josh: And it's also like, I think it's a— it's a common thing as well, right? Like, I think there's— there's a—

Mirte: I think every single person has it. Some people are just a little bit better at doing the new path thing.

Josh: Yeah.

Mirte: I don't know.

Josh: Or even masking it.

Mirte: It's just like, or the commitment to do that.

Josh: Yeah.

Mirte: And to notice when it happens. I think that's a big thing as well, that you're noticing, oh fuck, I'm doing this. I'm doing that fucking habit that is not good for me. You know, snap out of it, do the other thing.

Tommy: Yeah. Thinking about your thinking, you have to, that's the first step to actually starting to create change.

Mirte: Yeah.

Tommy: Just thinking about what the hell is going off in your head. Cause It's going to happen.

Josh: Well, and yeah, being able to identify it. I wonder, um, you know, you're into branding stuff, you know, creative direction. Tommy and I have spoken a lot about personal rebrands. Have you had—

Mirte: I love that photo that you posted.

Tommy: The one on the elephant?

Josh: No, no, the chequered one. The one that your mum said that I—

Mirte: I love the caption, a few, a few rebrands ago. Perfect.

Tommy: Yeah.

Josh: Have you noticed specific times in your life where you've had active rebrands? Where you've said, you know, I'm going from one career to another career, I'm going to change the way I look, I'm going to change the way that I communicate to people?

Tommy: No, no, me either.

Josh: I'm literally just trying to find a single person.

Mirte: Yeah, he's like, come on, it's a normal thing, right?

Tommy: This is not weird. Yeah, yeah, Josh is very conscious around these things. I mean, the closest thing I have to a rebrand is when my wife goes and buys me heaps of new clothes.

Josh: And that only happens when Cotton On has a sale. Exactly. Tommy's rebrands go perfectly aligned with Cotton On.

Tommy: Yeah, now I've got a mix of two rebrands. This was from previous and this is from now. But I don't think about it.

Mirte: No, no, it's just something that progressively happens. Like obviously I've looked totally different.

Josh: That's what I was gonna say.

Mirte: I look so different. I was looking on your Facebook and that you had like a Super short hair, shaved up.

Josh: Yeah, because you were— so did you do— so were you a model or what was it?

Mirte: So I did, and I had at one point I had white blonde hair and bleached eyebrows because that was my look.

Tommy: What, so that you couldn't see them?

Mirte: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Josh: I'm just showing a photo. Yeah, like so different.

Tommy: You actually don't even look like you today. You know, the cheeks, you've really aged. No, you probably look older there.

Mirte: Oh really?

Josh: I don't know.

Tommy: It's a masculine look, right?

Josh: Very short.

Mirte: So I was very androgynous and like I had— so that was long hair put up, but they shaved it like it was shaved up and it was like that pixie cut. I think back then there was this one model, Agnes Deane or something that was way back when. And that look was— to have that androgynous look with that blonde white hair was rare, but looked after or look how you look.

Josh: It was only 2012. That's like the funny thing with all this stuff is it's like you look back at me like that photo of me, that was only 2012. Like, could you imagine just us hanging out?

Mirte: Our shirts do look the same a little bit.

Tommy: Were you in Australia at that point?

Mirte: No, that was in the Netherlands. It was Fashion Week in the Netherlands, that one.

Josh: Yeah. What was the whole model thing like?

Mirte: I don't think that I ever had the commitment to be like, I really wanna do this. But what was good about it is that I could do that and earn some money on the side of studying and I didn't have to work in a bar or something. That was awesome. And also I was studying fashion at that 'cause I did fashion and branding. So I did branding focused on the fashion industry. So that was great as well 'cause it allowed me to go into places that I think, yeah, you're in that school already, you're in that realm and it gives you that extra access. So that was all, it all kind of merged together. But I started modelling as like a baby, as a kid as well.

Josh: Really? Yeah. Bree always talks about her modeling. You mean extorting, your parents were extorting you.

Mirte: Well, no, the best thing was, the worst thing was, so this is gonna be interesting if my parents hear this, but like, so my parents at one point when, what was that?

Josh: I believe they listen regularly.

Mirte: Yeah, of course. Yeah, I mean, totally. No, but my parents gave me, eventually like they gave me, I think the card of the money that I had earned being a model as a kid. So they were like, hey, you're now at a certain age, this is your money, so do with it as you wish, right? And I think, I just bought weed. I think so.

Tommy: I don't know.

Josh: Do you remember how much money was on the account?

Mirte: I don't, man. I think it was, in my mind, it was a lot, you know. I was like, damn.

Tommy: Yeah, any money's a lot when you're a kid.

Josh: What made you move to Australia?

Mirte: I fell in love. Yeah, I was travelling in Thailand when I was 18 and I met Damon, which is now my husband. So amazing. 12 years, I think 12 years or whatever amount of time.

Tommy: We're really bad with How old are you now? 32?

Mirte: I'm 30. 30.

Josh: Thanks.

Tommy: Well, I was trying to do that. That just shows you my math.

Mirte: Yeah.

Tommy: Shows you my math, mathematical.

Mirte: I can't, I'm not good at math either. What is that? Ah.

Josh: Yeah, it's been a while.

Mirte: So yeah, fell in love with Damon and then we travelled for 3 months through Thailand and I met him like in the first month or something and then we travelled together for 1 month and then we basically said, how about I just come to Australia? He was like, "Cool." And then I was like, I don't know if this is a Dutch thing of me, if that's like that independence, but I was like, I wanna do something here that's mine. So I did VCA, which is why I did VCA at that time.

Josh: Oh, cool.

Tommy: Interesting. You see the sort of movement in Australia with women in the workplace and the emphasis on making it very equal. What's the deal back in the Netherlands? Are we having the same discussions?

Mirte: I'm so irritated by this conversation. I have so many opinions here.

Tommy: That's good, just choose them wisely because we don't edit. No, but I want to know, like, is the conversation happening back in the Netherlands?

Mirte: I'm sure it is in a lot of ways. I think my— Holland is very equal, so I, for example, had a man of honor, not a maid of honor. My best friend is a dude, right, in the Netherlands, and I had a lot of guy friends and they all came over to the wedding as well. When I first came over here, I noticed there was a real separation between men and women. I remember the first time when I came here, so I was like, would have been 19. And I said to one of the guys I was working with, "Should we have a beer, right?" He's like, "Don't you have a boyfriend?" I'm like, "Dude, I don't wanna fuck you. Like, I wanna have a beer. Are you serious?" That was the first thing that I noticed there is a real, and I still have that these days as well, is that I have guy friends and that when they get a girlfriend, there is a difficulty or, which in the Netherlands I haven't experienced. So there's a real thing about equal, being equal in the Netherlands more so than it is here. I think there is the expectation a little bit more that women, they'll get pregnant and they stop work. I don't know, I've noticed that a little bit more here than I've ever noticed in the Netherlands. However, I'm obviously at a different age here than I was when I was living back in the Netherlands. I've lived here for more than 4.

Tommy: So what, so what you're picking up on now is a lot different when you're, when you're 18, you kind of—

Mirte: I think so.

Tommy: I think about getting stoned.

Mirte: Yeah, you know, like if you— yeah, I don't know. So that— but I definitely noticed a big difference between the relationships that women and men have here with each other.

Tommy: Okay.

Mirte: And what is man and what is woman. There's a very clear separation. Like a lot of my European friends call it an Australian barbecue when you go to a party and all the men go stand together and all the women go stand together. That's not a European thing. That doesn't happen, but here it fucking almost always happens.

Tommy: Interesting.

Josh: I think I've always struggled with that in the sense of Tommy and I always talk about the fact I've never been like the— I haven't had like a boys— like if— it's not like really a thing in the sense of like Tommy's got his boy mate, like if he's hanging out with the boys that means something. Where it's like—

Tommy: and I don't even have it that— like I know other dudes do footy club stuff. Like I've just got, I've got my close guy friends, but then I've got friends that have like serious packs of men.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: So it's like one beyond.

Mirte: Like, you know, and I think that that's okay. What I meant before as well with getting irritated by, I feel there is such an uproar about like feminism in not in a positive way as in like, it's all the men's fault. It's like, let's you know, we're all humans. Like, let's try and solve— if there is issues, which there is, let's try and solve them, not make— like, point at a group and say it's all you. I don't know. Yeah, I feel like it's becoming very, you know, Instagram aggressive.

Josh: Yeah, it comes— becomes a bit headlining and stuff like that because I just want to like know. I think that's the, that's the thing with all this stuff is it's At the end of the day, I'm just like, what can we do to make things better?

Mirte: Yes, yes. And open the conversation and ask questions and allow also men to ask questions because some men, they've grown up with a certain— you know, there was a guy at work and he put his hand, not at this work, but like another situation, he put his hand on my shoulder when he was telling someone and all of a sudden he pulled it off. He said, I'm so sorry. And I was like, what the fuck are you sorry about? Oh, I'm so sorry. Like, you know, you know, that's your space. I'm like, oh, this is so sad that we're now getting into this space that that was sexualized. No, that was just a human being friendly to another human. So I think it's becoming— it's a necessary conversation. I'm not saying we shouldn't, but it's just, yeah, we shouldn't also blame—

Josh: I don't know.

Tommy: I heard a comedian last night— yeah, that's what I do it all the time. I heard a comedian last night, female comedian, talking about the fear of going on radio. And she's been doing it for years, and that she started this new job and she was like, um, basically scared that she would stop talking and blah blah blah. And it was on a podcast called The Guilty Feminist. And so you can imagine where they were pushing it. And so she said, the host said, do you, were you scared of the, uh, do you think men would feel the same way? And she said no.

Mirte: About what?

Josh: About being worried about being on, worried about coming onto a going on air and feeling like you stop talking.

Tommy: And I thought it was full on that she said that she thinks that men don't, because I think men, I feel my self-doubt. And so if we're stripping away, trying to go, do you think the opposite or this other group is feeling like that? I mean, and we're just like, do humans feel fear? I do. And I've done a bit of radio. I see my best friend, Jules Lund, you know, he's a successful presenter. And I see the doubt and fear he goes through before a bloody speech. And it's like, yeah.

Mirte: I think that question is also a little bit warped because you can't judge the other gender based upon like, you know, they don't get that fear. Of course they do. However, I do understand with talking and everything, and there has been research on this. If there is a meeting room with like 5 men and 3 women, or let's say 1 woman, right? 5 men, if the woman speaks 3 times and the men speak 10 times, they will still feel that the woman spoke the most. And that research is there. So from that perspective, which I think is maybe where she was coming from, is in, are you nervous that you're going to be judged?

Josh: Yeah, I think there is a great chance.

Mirte: I think that is true. It's just that judging somebody else is like, don't men get fearful? Like, what the fuck?

Josh: Yeah. I mean, I think, yeah, prefacing, Yeah, playing in that space, like with that question, it sort of leads you there, right?

Tommy: You see where the answer is gonna come.

Josh: But I think there's definitely, I think that the hardest thing is that some of these things divide and create doubt. And the stuff that I'm always keeping in mind is like not throwing the baby out with the bathwater in the sense of like, just because some people are being pretty extreme with certain things, like my thought behind it is it's like, yes, there is unconscious bias out there and like, we all have unconscious bias and we don't recognise it. That's like the problem. That's, that's the unconscious bit. And so I'm always like trying to, especially working at somewhere like Envato, I was constantly, and being around like the HR team and stuff like that, you just are exposed to the things that you would never really think of. And I just think about—

Mirte: what kind of stuff do you mean?

Josh: I think it like, because of the HR, you're hearing about.

Mirte: Oh yeah, you just—

Josh: no, well, you're just like more, more aware of the things that people are bringing up as concerns, and you start thinking, okay, like maybe, you know, how I communicate, or how, how like that unconscious stuff around letting people speak and stuff like that within a meeting. And even that thing of— I'm always wondering with, um, uh, you know, if you hear someone on the radio. We did an episode which was called Women in Radio, and we're talking specifically like one of the areas around the, you know, sometimes you'd be like, oh, I don't like that person because they have these qualities. Like they're really loud and obnoxious and all that sort of thing. And sometimes I think that we think that because we think that women shouldn't have these types of traits. And so I think it's just about being aware of it.

Mirte: That's so, yeah, I agree with that. Like if a woman is very, like a woman will become a bitch, but a man will become, you know, ambitious.

Josh: Yeah.

Mirte: And I think that, that is def— and I've definitely noticed that for sure.

Josh: Do you think— do you get over talking about this stuff?

Mirte: Like, I'm reading this book at the moment that says, um, I'm Not a Feminist, which is awesome to read. So I'm very interested in it. But which— I, I am a feminist, it's just not in the kind of hashtag feminist Instagram.

Josh: Yeah.

Mirte: Crap that you're seeing these days, because I don't feel that the majority of the women out there that are flagging, you know, waving that flag are actually doing anything to make it better than just shouting.

Tommy: Making noise.

Mirte: Making noise. And I don't agree with that, but I do find it interesting. I just found it very complicated. It's such a broad thing to talk about, you know, the whole #MeToo movement, which I think is so needed and so worth it. But for example, things— remember when Oprah did that talk and everybody was raving about it? And she said with this her beautiful, like, I mean, Oprah's fucking amazing, obviously. And she says with that amazing voice, she says, "And we will one day, we will live in a world where no girl has to say 'me too' again." And everybody was like, "What? Yes!" And people were talking about it the days after. And I was like, "This is fucking bullshit." Like, we live in a reality here. Like, it's a dangerous world out there. Like, shit, come on. There's bad people in the world. Yeah, shit will always happen. You can't just say one day we will live in a world where nobody will say Me Too again. Like, that, that is not real.

Josh: It's pretty naive.

Tommy: And then the next minute she's having a photo with Harvey Weinstein. Have you seen that? No. Oh, Oprah and Harvey just like in hands, like face on each other. They were friends for years.

Mirte: Yeah, but this, that's—

Tommy: yeah, they're Hollywood, they're Hollywood elite.

Josh: Yeah, I mean, the, the annoying—

Mirte: yeah, and they don't—

Tommy: they live in the, you know, yeah, it's not a real reality when you get a billion dollars in your bank.

Mirte: But I just think that that's just sensation shit. Like, that's, you know, the way politics is right now. Like, that kind of saying that shit is so unrealistic. And it's blaming also, like, saying that the cops are not doing their job. I mean, there's obviously— that's a whole nother conversation. But you can't just— there's bad people out there. Shit will fucking happen.

Josh: Yeah, yeah.

Mirte: There's also going to be men beaten up, and there's also going to be men that are going to be raped And all that kind of stuff does help. Now we're really taking it into it. This is like having a conversation.

Tommy: We're talking about how finding someone to blame for something outside of your control is like, it adds a level of power.

Mirte: Well, and there is also, I think, a little bit of a revenge mentality with women, which rightfully, that's understandable.

Tommy: Oh, understandable, yeah.

Josh: Well, there's been a power, like, do you think there's been a power imbalance Fuck, of course.

Mirte: So I think finally there is a time that women are able to speak up and there is a little bit of a, well, fuck you right now. Listen to our problems and you better fucking listen. That kind of mentality I think is there, which this is also the course that we need to go through. So as much as it sometimes irritates me a little bit, it's also understandable. I understand that as well.

Tommy: I would probably be shouting fuck you too.

Mirte: Yeah, you know, and also listen, like fucking listen, you know, that kind of, 'cause you know, with the three women speaking and I know that I speak a lot, so that is not because I'm a woman, I just talk a lot. There is a point that now women are saying, well, no, you need to listen to me. And yes, that's, I don't know.

Tommy: How did your husband, now husband, how is he when he was your boyfriend deal with the bloke, you know, your mates being guys and?

Mirte: So, so, um, he's Australian. Yeah, yeah, okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, it's— I think Damon is— Damon and I are like honestly in that way so perfect for each other because he, he's always been so understanding. I remember in the— he never had any problems with it to begin with. I think there was like at one point there was some friends that said to him, she has all the photos with dudes on her social media. And I think then he was a little bit more for the outside world. He was like, oh, maybe people are seeing it in the wrong way. So that I remember having that conversation once with him, but he— and I've had this conversation with him a lot. I remember that he always said, every time that you become very close with a guy and you bring them home and introduce them, they're always such good guys. Like, he becomes friends with them. So most of my guy friends, like, he got so close with all of them. So that whole group that I grew up with, um, they all came to the wedding, and you know what I mean? And they're so like such mates with Damon and Yeah.

Tommy: I see. I had a bunch of girlfriends, close girlfriends, and the learning for me from my wife, she was— some of them were probably emotionally inappropriate.

Mirte: Right.

Tommy: So there might've been a reliance from the girl, not me. You know, I'm thinking, ah, it's just my mate, you know, cause I can have my thinking and it'd be clear as day to me, but maybe not to somebody else. And so that's where I had to emotionally cut off from some relationships that then ended up severing them.

Josh: Well, you talk about like emotional sustenance or whatever. It's like, where are you getting that from?

Mirte: Yeah, I do think, and I do think that if you've been in a relationship for as long as we have, like I do think you have to watch out for becoming too close of friends with somebody and getting that emotional support from your friend as opposed to your partner. I think that can happen. And I think it has happened with us. And then you need to realise that that's happening. Like, oh no, when something happens, I should be calling my husband. That is—

Josh: How do you course correct? Have you worked out mechanisms where, or like boundaries? How do you do it?

Mirte: I don't think it naturally happens. I think it has to do with your own relationship and where you're at in your relationship that it allow— that it can happen. Like, I'm, I'm the most monogamous person that you'll ever meet, probably. It's a very Trump statement. But like, like, you know, I'm such a monogamous person, but I don't actually believe in monogamy. Like, I believe that naturally we are— I don't think that that's how humans work, that they fall in love, like finding the one. I don't believe in that. Yeah, but what I find so romantic about Damon and me is that we chose each other, and we choose each other every time, you know. We keep choosing each other. And I think naturally you will maybe meet somebody and be like, oh, there is a real attraction there. But that's also okay. So to not see that as a threat and be like, okay, that's, that's, that, that probably was a, you know, a possibility or something, but I choose to be with my husband, which is powerful.

Tommy: And then when something like that happens —which is reality, seeing someone or meeting somebody you connect with. You were choosing to be with them. Exactly.

Mirte: And that's what I find so romantic. I find that most romantic, but so many times people live in, you know, that's romanticism, like thinking that you find the one. I'm like, that is such bullshit. Yeah.

Tommy: And then the one, that's the power that keeps you together. But yeah, no, it's not.

Mirte: It's not a magical thing. It's a conscious decision. That you stay together and grow together. And if there is issues, 'cause nobody's perfect, like fuck, I can't believe Damon is still putting up with me.

Josh: Even off the meds and everything.

Mirte: Yeah, even off the meds.

Josh: Yeah, it's interesting. Like it's the, yeah, there's definitely like some people would see it as unromantic, but I think it is that, 'cause I feel the same way, which with Bree and I, it's like, this is optional. And that's like the best. The best thing is that it is optional and like we're choosing to do it.

Mirte: Exactly, we're not together because of, you know, this is it. It's like, oh, this is a choice, like an I choose you.

Josh: And did you, like, what sort of, what do you see having been in a long-term relationship? What has that given you that you think that, you know, that you can share in regards to like what has been that success? What's the success?

Mirte: Um, I think like having a partner in life and, and really growing and learning together, um, and pushing each other to grow and learn and supporting each other in that. Um, and Damon is 8 years older than me, so for example, a recent thing that happened, like, I, I wasn't ready to like buy a house or all that kind of stuff, like, you know, that millennial kind of thing thinking of like, I'll never want to do all that crap, which is totally fine. Um, but Damon was kind of at that space like, I really want to do this. Um, and he was like, I want to do something in Daylesford, like, you know, buy a piece of land or something and build something. And I was like, well, you know, yeah, I'm just not really in that space yet. But he kept kind of talking about it and he kept trying to convince me to do it. And then at one point we're in the car and we just looked at this block of land and he kept trying to convince me. He's like, oh, you know, like, we could do this. And I at one point said to him, this needs to be your decision, because if, if you convince me to do it and I say yes, then I will feel obligated to be involved with it, and it would become a bad thing for us. Because I don't want to go every weekend to Daylesford. I don't maybe want to do this. I'm not ready for building a house. I'm a bit nervous about it. But if you start to do it I'll probably be inspired by you and I will want to be a part of it, right? And then he was like, fuck it, I'm gonna do it. So then he started doing it, and now it's exactly what happened. I'm getting really inspired about it, and now it's become this project that we're doing together, right? And we were sitting having dinner last night, and I said to him, I'm so grateful that this is— I would have never done this. I would have never right now been in this position doing this amazing project with you. And so I was like, thank you for taking me through this. And then he was like, thank you for pushing me to make my own decision. Like, which was such a cool thing. Are you watching?

Tommy: She slid the divorce papers and said, I'm taking off, get the fuck out.

Mirte: Yeah, it's like, you know what I mean? Like, you're giving each other experience because it's probably not something that I would have ever done, and him making the decision might have not been something that he'd done, but we've given each other these opportunities. Um, yeah, I don't know, is that— does that—

Josh: yeah, I definitely feel that with travel with Bree and I, where it's like I'm full on, like I make quick decisions and I'll do crazy stuff. Whereas Bri is more calculated and takes time. But at the same time, she's so dedicated to things. So when she was at her last job at Suzanne, that was like, she couldn't think of leaving. She was like, if I leave, it's just like, what are they gonna do? And what am I gonna do? And then she goes to Hey Tiger and she's been, Hey Tiger for, you know, 7 or 8 months and now she's like, how can I do this without them? Amazing, I love it. And so it's so interesting how like we are really adaptable too. And by having another person in your life, you can sort of help each other on that journey and you can sort of, and so there's push and pull, which at times is like, it'd be really good if I didn't have that tension point. If I just, if the person was like, yeah, let's do it. And like, we're on the same path. But then I'm sure that I'd be going way to the extreme and it wouldn't be good.

Mirte: Yeah, and you get better. Like, you know how people— some part— oh, this is another thing with, with romance and the one, right? So many people think if somebody says that I'm doing something wrong, they must not fully love me for who I am, right? They must reject a part of me. And romanticism says then that person is not the one because they don't fully accept you. I don't believe that either. Like, there's shit that I need to learn in order to become a better person. And if there is this counter that reflects with me and points out my mistakes and points out the things where I should grow or learn, like, wow, what a fucking gift that is. So yeah, I'm so grateful for what I have with Damon.

Josh: With work and stuff like that, how do you keep inspired and keep interested in what you're doing?

Mirte: I think that I work 7 days for sure, because I'm always looking for inspiration and like a different way of looking at stuff. And I try to always find inspiration not in my field because I feel otherwise it all kind of stays a little bit the same, I think. So looking outside of things and for example, with Hey Tiger, it's a chocolate brand, right? But what I'm looking at more, and that's probably 'cause it's my background, but I'm looking at fashion and the way that gets branded and the way that gets marketed because it, because it's just a different way of looking at it and I feel that that makes something more unique or more different because you're approaching it from a totally different perspective. It's a creative approach to something.

Tommy: Yeah. Doing the opposite. Yeah. Of what you think you should do.

Josh: Yeah, yeah. Have you had any times of saying I want to complete career change or just getting over it?

Tommy: Or as Josh calls it, the rebrand.

Mirte: I think that I, I think this is what I do. Like, this is what I enjoy doing, like creating and building and, and, and, um, telling storeys and stuff like that. I think that's what I want to do, and I think that's what I've always wanted to do. So it could have taken any form, but at its essence, at its core, this is what I do. Yeah. But yes, it could have been something totally different. I could gone into movies and, you know, like, which would have been a similar creative thing, but it just, yeah.

Tommy: Well, it's handy when you're not fixed on the vehicle to get to where you think you wanna go. Yeah, yeah. 'Cause then, yeah, a job comes up and draws on all these different elements that stimulate you and yeah.

Josh: What's the biggest difference, like being someone who grew up somewhere else and coming and living in a different country? What's the things that you pick up on day to day? And do you feel different? Like, do you—

Mirte: Yeah, I definitely do. Like what you said before about the discussion stuff, that's a big thing for me. Like, I tend to want to have a discussion about things, and that's not always— like, I'm very passionate about stuff, and I'll be like, "Rah, you know, that's supposed to be this way." But in Holland, when you have a big opinion about something, it doesn't mean the end. Like, somebody can still convince you. But here they feel that you have a very strong opinion about something. So, it's like, it's infinite or how do you say it?

Josh: It's, yeah, it's you're doing a thing with your hand, which I know exactly what you mean. Cutting. No, it's like, yeah, no, it's like the only way, like adamant, you're adamant.

Mirte: This is the, yeah. Yeah, so, if I'm saying blue, she's definitely always meaning blue, which seems like, no, it's fluid. Like I might have a different—

Tommy: I say it now, but it might be different. Approach of a relationship, a good relationship. Yeah. Because you do with your partner. I'm always arguing with Amy, not in a bad way, but we have discussions and yeah, you know, I'm not—

Mirte: and it's honest. Yeah. Like if you can't have a good discussion with a friend and be afraid of conflict, then what's—

Tommy: yeah, it's a good, it's a good lesson for a business partnership too. Josh and I are going into a business partnership and it's being honest and open about what we think and standing for it. But then being, ah, maybe I can change that. Or if you care more about it than me, even though I care a little bit, it's reflecting on what you're thinking at the end of the day.

Mirte: It did take me a long, it still is difficult though, I have to say, being here because language isn't just language. I can speak your language, but language is so much more than that, right? It's like, it's your mannerisms, it's your interests, your background, you know, it's everything combined. And I do often feel a little bit lost in translation or I feel not understood, if that makes sense. Which in— when I came to the Netherlands, like, because I hadn't been home for 3 years, so just for New Year's I went back home again because we had the wedding in Thailand, all our friends came over there. And so there were things, reasons why we didn't go back. But I like, I was in the train from Berlin, I first like visited some friends in Berlin, so I was in the train going home and all of a sudden the loudspeaker went to Dutch, like, "Guten Mittag, Damen und Herren," you know, like, "Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen, we're now driving into the Netherlands." And I started to cry straight away just because there is this real thing of like your language and being understood. And the next day I was sitting in this cafe and I was just watching everybody and I understood them. You know, they were my people, as in like their mannerisms make sense. The way they interact, like the way the lady came to, you know, take my order, that was also, yeah, like I understood that. And here I always kind of feel like 10%, 20% not myself. Do you know what I mean?

Josh: Yeah. I don't know if that relates. I mean, how does that play with creativity, do you think?

Mirte: I think there is an advantage in that a little bit. I mean, it allows you to look at, get inspiration from a lot of different aspects. Like, I get a lot of it from Europe, and I'm not so stuck in what is going on here. I don't really know, you know, everything that's going on here, but I feel when I travel, I have this heightened—

Tommy: not confidence, but it's like a bit of courage. You're in another country, I'm going to be leaving here, or it's like, you know, do you, do you feel that? And I've always thought, if I moved to America, am I going to have that consistently? Do you feel a level of that?

Mirte: No, in the beginning, yes. In the beginning I was like, "I'm Dutch, you know, I'm different." And it gives you— I think we all need a storey to tell. And if you have a storey like, "I come from Europe," like, that's a cool story. So you kind of feel a little bit— but the longer that I'm here, I got very insecure about that. So I'm much better now, but the year before this I was very like, "Oh, you know, like, I'm not understood. I don't have real friends that really understand me." That kind kind of stuff. So it took me a while to, yeah, like be confident about who I am. That's probably already a thing that I have, but being from a different country and having that kind of lost in translation feeling. Yeah.

Tommy: Well, the storey gets old, like you said, even to yourself, not to others, but it's like you start going, ah, well, I am from Europe. Is that what I am? Is that what I am? Yeah. I'm living here.

Mirte: Decided to live here. And, and friends, and having— because you guys grown up here, correct? So you have, you've known people for such a long time. The longer you people know, the more ingrained they are and the more you can really count on them. If I'm only been here for 3 years, maybe 4— I don't know, fuck, I'm so bad at years. Let's say 3 or 4, whatever. It takes a really long time to find people that you truly connect with, right?

Josh: And yeah, so you, you met Damon, what, 12 years ago? But did you— were you doing long distance for a while then?

Mirte: Yeah, so we— so I came here for then a year and a half, and then I went back to the Netherlands, and then we did long distance for a while, and then he came to the Netherlands, and then he lived in the Netherlands with me for 4 years. Wow. Um, and then he went back, and then we did a year kind of long distance. In the meantime, he asked me to marry him, which was very brilliantly done. Like, he tricked me, which is awesome.

Josh: How did he trick you? What did he do?

Mirte: Um, so he— his best mate— so this was like, we hadn't seen each other for like 6 months or something crazy, and his best mate called me. He says, 'Mirtha,' he— so you see, I say my own name wrong now. Um, 'I want to surprise Damon, so I want to buy you a ticket and you're going to come over to Australia and I'm going I'm gonna book you a room in a hotel that he's doing, 'cause he's a cabinetmaker and he'll be doing the bar area. So you'll come, you'll go in, and when you wake up in the morning, you're gonna surprise him, right? And I was like, oh, this is gonna be amazing. He's like, yeah, but you need to make up a storey why you can't speak to him, 'cause you're gonna be in the plane for like 24 hours, right? I'm like, okay, okay. So I get my group of friends together and I get this car and we all are standing there with our suitcases. It's like, We're gonna go to Paris and like, okay, 'cause it's like 5 hours to drive to Paris and it's 5 hours to fly to Dubai. And then the stopover, I'll just say that I'm partying all night, right? So this whole plan I had like figured out. So everything was sorted and I was like, oh my God, I'm the best liar. The moment that he sees me there, he's gonna be like, oh bitch, you're such a liar. Like, I was so proud of myself. So I was playing this for like, a month or more, I don't know, eventually flew over and I arrive at like the hotel and I go to cheque in and it's in the middle of the night, like 3 o'clock in the morning. And the man says like, just go upstairs and we have a fruit basket for you because it's the middle of the night, everything is closed. And because you come from far away, like you get some fruit in order to eat, right? I'm like, this is amazing.

Josh: That's a shit bit of the story. The fruit bit's amazing. I'd be like, why the fuck are you guys obsessed with the fruit?

Mirte: I don't give a fuck about fruit. Give me some croissants. So I go upstairs and I kind of unpack some stuff and there is a knock on the door and I'm like, fruit basket. And I opened the door and it's Damon standing in a suit and he goes on one knee and he says, you know, I know you wanted to surprise me, but it was all my plan.

Josh: And I'm like, what? Did he have fruit?

Mirte: No, this is also the thing I said afterwards, and he still says it after a while. He says, "So is there still coming fruit basket?

Tommy: Where's my bananas?" Well, I can see a fruit bowl in the kitchen. There's lots of fruit in there, so he's making up for it. So he's making an effort now. Oh, that's good.

Mirte: Yeah, amazing. He did such an amazing job. It was crazy.

Tommy: Yeah, I'd just be scared that, um, my wife is a really great liar. I know.

Mirte: So I was actually thinking that afterwards, it's like, wow, she was I was so comfortable lying, like it was. It was for a good cause, right?

Josh: Yeah. And the difference between being an employee and doing your own thing. Yeah.

Mirte: As a creative person, I've always thought of that, signing the contract here. Yeah. And then Sai knows, and Lauren as well. When I gave back my contract as well, Lauren looked at it, it's like, you didn't sign it, such a Freudian slip. I'm like, oh.

Josh: Yeah. Do you think that the end game for you is to work for yourself?

Mirte: I always thought so. And I was working for myself before I started here. I don't really see it as if I'm working for someone though. Like my passion for what I do is because I wanna do that, not because I'm looking for the wage, if that makes sense. That's just not, I just, it more worries me that I will, it's amazing to work for Sai because she's all about input you know, output not input. And she totally understands the creative process and that you sometimes need space to just think stuff through. I don't think I could ever work for anybody that is not like that, if that makes sense. Like, I need that space to really— because in order to really create unique and different things, you need to have that space to think. Otherwise you're just going to copy something else, you know what I mean? Yeah, absolutely.

Tommy: I mean, that's what we're always trying to get people to trust you enough to give you the space to then go and create.

Mirte: Exactly. Yeah. So, um, yeah, so I think, yeah, it's a massive emphasis.

Tommy: Back home, is there a lot of people doing their own thing?

Mirte: Yeah, starting their own businesses? Yeah, yeah, definitely. Where are the Northern Lights?

Tommy: They're in, um, Scandinavia. Yeah, yeah. No, my friend, my, my wife's best friend lives there, and her husband was talking to me. He was so curious as to me having my own business. Really? Because everyone works for somebody over there and there's this like— Oh, that's pretty common in Malaysia. Everyone's holding each other down. Oh, I don't know if you could do that.

Mirte: Really?

Tommy: So, no one's encouraging them to get out and do their own thing.

Josh: It's so important like finding the right community. How did you actually find the right people?

Mirte: People here? Here. There's a few. So, I have a few different groups that they'll tend to, for some reason they're all mixed up now as well, which I didn't realize, and not because of me, but just because for some reason Melbourne is so small. Again, there was— there's one group that I met through, um, so my school in the Netherlands had an exchange programme with RMIT, and so there was a designer that came over that I got quite close with. So when I came here, I met up with him and I got introduced to that whole friend group, um, and then there was another group that I met through work, and then there's a group of Europeans that I met through all different ways. Like, yeah, so it's just all kind of mix and match. Do you find friend—

Josh: I find the friendship thing interesting because, you know, you talk about me growing up here. In some regards, I feel like I've also moved because I went from the suburbs. Like, Tommy can walk the streets around here and there's people that he went to school with who are around here. But a lot of the people that I went to school with are out in the suburbs. So, it feels like I've sort of done a bit of a trip. Like, it feels like a different, like I don't necessarily, like it's not like I ever, I've never worked with someone that I ended up like, we went to high school or something together or anything like that. Is the, has the friendship thing been something that's really on your mind? Do you think like, I always think about being an adult and like making friends and how it's sort of a bit difficult.

Mirte: It is. It's on my mind a lot. Like, I found here that I've had quite a bit of trouble in finding like true friends, like people that actually hang around. I found a lot, and I don't know if that's— that's not Australian, but sometimes my brain goes like, it must be an Australian thing. I know it's not, you know, but you know how it's— I know it's not. The same shit happens in Holland as well. It's just that I probably put sometimes there must be an Australian thing. People can be very hot and very like onto you and messaging you and da da da, and all of a sudden there's nothing. And then you're like, oh, what did I do? But then all of a sudden they're again really hot and I never know what, and I'm not that type of friend. Like I'm such a loyal person. So if I'm friends with you, I'm friends with you and I'll do everything that I can to help you out.

Tommy: Well, when you grow up in primary school, you're forming these close friends And then sort of, so we get used to having a friendship group from very early on. And I look at my wife coming from Sydney to Melbourne and her worrying, you know, her being upset and not having these close friends. It is just another thing in life that's gonna take some effort and make you uncomfortable because she's got no problem in finding friends. And, but yeah, and then you think back, oh, there's nothing like your friend, true friends growing up. And I get that. Josh and I are fairly new of friends.

Josh: But I think it's a— I think that's the storey that we tell ourselves.

Tommy: But there's nothing like a 23-year friendship. Yeah, sure.

Mirte: Like, I've got friends that I've been— that trust and that faith.

Tommy: James and, you know, my friend Rhys, we've been friends forever. Yeah. And there's something in that you just can't replace with a new friendship. You can form— like, I trust you a lot, Josh, but there's a— then there's that element.

Josh: So who would you trust?

Tommy: The person of 23 years or the person of 5 years? You'd probably go the 23-year one if the trust is trust.

Josh: Yeah, no, it's true. I think that there's definitely a, that's a learning that I've had is because I am someone who like gets really passionate and becomes great friends with people really quickly. And I've seen that like drop off or even that thing that you think that you know people like this weird thing where it's like, oh, I think that like we've connected really well. Like it takes literally like 2 weeks in a workplace where you're having lunch every day and then you're like, man, we're best mates. We know everything about like what I like. And then you realize, you know, down the track that it's like, oh, like there's actually, people are really complex.

Tommy: It's like not knowing the difference between your best friends, your acquaintances.

Mirte: And you know— Especially these days with like all that social and all that kind of stuff. Oh yeah. There's such a, when isn't, you know, a friend, an acquaintance, and one is an acquaintance, a friend, and you're in each other's pockets.

Tommy: And so it's hard. I feel like I've got a good gauge between best friends, and I've got a shitload of acquaintances. Yeah. And I think it's just from growing up around here mingling. But it's like, I kind of, you know, if I don't tell them anything that I wouldn't— like, I know where they lie. Like, you gotta— you're reading the friendship, which you can get it wrong.

Josh: And I've never done— like, I've never done that. And I think that's probably hurt me, if anything.

Mirte: Yeah, what do you mean? What have you never done?

Josh: Well, I've never really like, I've never put people like, I've been pretty, I feel like I'm pretty consistent. It doesn't matter who I'm sort of speaking to. Like, so I will speak.

Mirte: I'm the same. So I don't really, when somebody is an acquaintance, I feel that it's a friend. Like I would do the same shit for an acquaintance than I would do for a good friend. Like I don't feel that difference.

Josh: I'll like help someone move who I've only met like, and so that's like the weirdness of it though, because I think that it's that whole like codependency or whatever, or the expectations that we put on people, which is interesting.

Mirte: I so agree with that, because what, what I would do for another person, you'd kind of in a way expect back, but that doesn't work that way. You know that shit advice like treat people how you want to be treated? Yeah, that shit's bullshit. Because you can't expect an expectation, you know, that's— you set setting yourself up for failure, like for disappointment because you're expecting a certain level of input.

Tommy: You're waiting for it, then you start looking for those moments where I need your help here. It's a tricky one, but you get better. If you're not good at it, you get better at it by fucking it up.

Josh: Well, I think the thing is too, like, I don't know if you can. This is the thing.

Mirte: That's what I'm saying. I don't know if you can.

Tommy: But hang on, your awareness now, like you thinking about your thinking, like you're a very thoughtful person.

Mirte: So you get better at disappointment.

Tommy: No, you get better at being aware of a situation that you've never been in. And so for you entering into this where it's like, okay, I've stuffed up there, I'll be more cautious here. And then you start, maybe you don't want to go too far. It was like, you don't trust anybody. I don't know who I can bloody trust. But I think there is a level of awareness that you're gaining that is allowing you to get better at it. 100%.

Mirte: And also understanding why you put yourself pull to certain people because like your psychology is also made up, you know, like all that kind of Freudism is in like you're trying to be, you know, solve past, you know, maybe a problem that you had with your mother or your father and you're trying to solve that issue, you know, with your friendships as well. I, I do feel that I look for acceptance in groups, like I want to be accepted for who I am or I want to be invited in, and if I'm not invited in, I don't feel that I'm accepted, right? Like So I feel, I think that for a while I was pulling to people that weren't that accepting because I was trying to fix that underlying issue rather than the people that were accepting me. I was like, oh yeah, they're good, man. Yeah. But I was putting effort into friendship that maybe weren't meant to be because that's just my psychology that's trying to fix something internally.

Josh: Yeah, I can completely—

Tommy: we don't need to have a shitload of acquaintances. Like, what works for me probably won't work for you for sure. Yeah.

Josh: Also, what I would just worry about is becoming too using that as a mechanism to try and stop me from getting hurt or something and missing out on heaps of opportunities where it's like, because I know that I could be closed, I could like say, yeah, I've got my close friends, but there's a part of me which is like, maybe this person I'm speaking to now is going to be a great friend. And so it's that constant balance of I don't want to just close off because of the possibility of getting hurt, which in some regards is harder it's harder to be open than it is to close off and say, I've, you know, it just has to be a mid-ground there.

Mirte: You can't just close off or be open. Yeah, there has to be that middle.

Josh: I think it comes down to like self-love, right? Self-acceptance.

Mirte: If you're good.

Josh: Yeah, if you can, yeah, if you can get some, a lot of the stuff that you're talking about through yourself and the confidence in yourself and realise that like everyone's a bit fucked. I think that's the big learning for me is like everyone's a bit tweaked, everyone's a little a little bit fucked and it's like we're all trying to work out this shit. What did Jeff Jowett say?

Tommy: We're all perfectly imperfect.

Josh: Yeah, yeah, it's really true. Our friend Myrta, did I say that name like— Myrta.

Tommy: Myrta. You just sound like a kid from international school. You know what it means? Slightly has an American accent.

Mirte: No, what does it mean? I'm sorry, I always, every time people say to me, oh, you've got such a beautiful name, I was like, you know what it really means? Myrtle. Myrtle. As in the flat, the— Myrtle, is that really old woman's name? Myrtle. Myrtle. It's a flower. It's a plant. Yeah, it's a plant. Myrtle from the sky is my English name. Von der Luft. Myrtle von der Luft.

Tommy: Sounds like a song. Myrtle from the sky.

Josh: Hearing other people speak other languages is just sick. Like I've been trying to learn this year.

Mirte: Not Dutch. Dutch sounds so ugly.

Josh: No, but I think it's cool. I feel like I did German in school and the whole Guten Morgen, wie geht's dir? That sort of stuff. Yeah, das ist gut.

Tommy: Josh looks like a big German, do you think?

Mirte: German man? No, I think he looks more Scandinavian, like Dutch or Scandinavian, like Swedish.

Josh: I don't know. Anyway, it's The Daily Talk Show, everyone. Mita, we'll have to have you back on when I'm back in Melbourne and we've got the whole studio set up and we can just regularly catch up and talk shit. Sounds good. The Daily Talk Show, everyone. Send us an email, hi@thedailytalkshow.com. .com, .com, .com. Have a good one. Bye.