What's the point of social media?

Tommy: Wait a minute! Crossface! The Daily Talk Show, a conversation sometimes worth recording with Josh Janson and Tommy Jackett.

Josh: It's a Daily Talk Show episode 130. Was that embarrassing, Tommy, seeing me do it 3 times?

Tommy: Yes, we finally got there. Um, what is happening?

Josh: Yeah, I must have a bit of a Monday, Monday-itis, unable to just say the podcast name.

Tommy: Oh mate, don't we all? I just got an email from Gideon, who is one of our listeners, and he's been travelling around Europe. So I've been watching his Insta storeys and yours and hating the fact that it's so freezing here. But the other day I mentioned that the heater is like crack. And he just emailed me saying, I now understand why the heater is like crack. 'cause he's just got back to Melbourne.

Josh: So he's back in, he's back, yeah.

Tommy: Yeah, freezing. So I just need a quick update. Amy, my wife, has just sent a text message 10 minutes ago. She must have been listening to last week's message, last week's show. Sorry, fucking Lawrence, someone was creeping behind me. What are you doing? You could, ah, I just—

Josh: So Tommy's currently in his office and Larry, one of the guys who subleases off him, was just walking past.

Tommy: Oh, I could, I could just see him apparently walk past on me. I could see my peripheral. He was behind me doing something. I think he just like froze because he knew I was recording. Anyway, so you know last week, Josh, when I was talking about Jehovah's Witness as a religion, and I was talking about the storey of Lawrence who was creeping behind me. I don't know what he was doing. He was at a wedding where the DJ was playing Jehovah's Witness tunes, and it was a Jehovah's Witness wedding. And when I say tunes, I just mean all the profanities and sexualized lyrics were removed from top 100 songs. Anyway, I must have said something in that episode that said Christianity is similar to Jehovah's Witness. Look, I can't remember saying it, but My wife thinks that's what I said, and she's just—

Josh: I do remember you saying it. I remember I asked you, was it a sect of Christianity? And you strongly and confidently said yes.

Tommy: No, I don't think it—

Josh: Which I wasn't comfortable with.

Tommy: I don't think I said it was a sect.

Josh: I don't know.

Tommy: I mean, if you can be bothered—

Josh: Well, we have the recording. This is the thing. This is what happened when I got a security camera in my home office. Every time Bri and I would have an argument, Bree would say, play back the tape, let's hear the audio.

Tommy: So Amy just messaged me, Jehovah's Witness is so different to Christianity. I just wrote, but that's what they all say.

Josh: They're all— apparently they're all different. I'm not buying this.

Tommy: And then I said, what's the main difference? I'll mention it. She said, so many. And the first one she said, and this is probably— this is the only one I'll mention because it really just shut me down. As soon as I read it. The main one for me is how they cut you off, like Scientology. If you have, if you have a blood transfusion or abortion, even if you were raped, etc., so families lose contact with their kids because they cut you off.

Josh: Oh yeah, yeah, I, I, I've, I've heard that, but I don't know if that means that, like, if they believe in everything, if it's— yeah, I don't know, it's— I know nothing about religion.

Tommy: Yeah, Josh, don't do it.

Josh: It's not— that doesn't mean it's dissimilar.

Tommy: If I can give you a, uh, a piece of advice, um Don't act like you know what you're talking about when it comes to religion. I think it's just— I mean, Amy went to Bible college, so I think she would have some idea of the differences.

Josh: Yeah, but my thing is, I wonder, because the cutting off thing I knew about, and obviously there's a lot of sort of religions or, you know, churches that are from the Christian sect or whatever that are like really full-on and that don't like picket in front of, you know, um, you know, gay people's funerals or soldiers' funerals, things like that.

Tommy: That's, that's who do that.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: And see, here's the thing, you're talking— we're talking about a religion, and there's so many variations of, and, and I guess depths that people take it and beliefs within the one thing. So there could be Christians that believe a whole plethora of different things. Which doesn't mean one's right or wrong, it just means that there's variations of it. So I don't know, I mean, all I wanted to do was talk about a DJ that played, uh, you know, top 50 songs without any sexualized lyrics.

Josh: The, um, I wonder what the— it's interesting around the, like, identifying specifically, like, around what religion you are and things like that, because in, in a lot of ways what people, my friends describe who are you know, some that are really religious, um, they're all like, uh, qualities or values or virtues or whatever you want to call it that I believe in as well. Um, so yeah, it's— I find religion super interesting.

Tommy: Yeah, I mean, you're in a very Catholic environment at the moment, you know, a lot of the population across Italy Very religious churches, a lot of churches. It's unbelievable. Have you been, have you been, um, getting into that stuff, deep diving?

Josh: Uh, we've been go— we've gone to a few churches and stuff like that, but, um, and the— we're wondering why the bells were going. Like, I love the bells that go off every hour or whatever and every half an hour, but they were going crazy yesterday, and apparently it's because there was mass on. Or whatever.

Tommy: Yeah, Sunday Mass.

Josh: But yeah, but I have no idea on that type of stuff.

Tommy: I saw something that's been popping up in my newsfeed and it's, you know, WeWork, the—

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: So they're like coworking space.

Josh: They're like a coworking? Yeah.

Tommy: Crazy, they're like worth $20 billion. So I think they end up owning a lot of the real estate where they're, you know, having their coworking spaces. And so, you know, the business isn't just how you rent this desk. It's a lot more than that. But they have started banning meat within their co-working spaces. So the— so sorry, the business itself have started to no longer reimburse employees for meals that included red meat or poultry or pork.

Josh: But so that's so different, right? Like, what I'm— what I'm not sure on is There's a difference between being a co— being in a co-working space.

Tommy: Yeah.

Josh: Um, versus being an employee of that co-working space.

Tommy: My— sorry, I fucked that up because, yeah, it's such a weird thing. Their business is looking after other businesses. So the company itself have 6,000 employees. So WeWork as a company to manage their $20 billion of office rental spaces, they have for their own employees started banning. And so it's like just a big business making a move to reduce their carbon footprint, which is crazy. I was like, and so they've done that, they've banned the employees from.

Josh: But I think it's such a strong word. Like I think that this is an example of a headline which seems so misleading 'cause you put it into Trello and the headline in Trello is WeWork bans meat.

Tommy: No, I just said WeWork banned. WeWork banned.

Josh: No, no, no, no. So Business Insider, the article was called WeWork Bans Meet.

Tommy: Did you look at that?

Josh: Um, yeah, I, I looked at the article.

Tommy: That's so funny because I half the time I want you not to look at something and then I put a, put something in there so I can tell you fresh and then, uh, you open up my board, you cheeky prick.

Josh: Should I have not looked at it? Well, I was just curious. No, it was seriously a click. It's a very clickbaity thing. So, I was like, man, what the fuck? This is outrageous. But I don't know. I think that if it's— there's a big difference. I think that the thing that would have annoyed me about it would have been controlling the choice of people who are co-working in those environments.

Tommy: Yeah. So, I don't think it's the co-working environment itself. It's the, the business, so the people who work directly for WeWork. I thought it was awesome. I thought it was like, you know, like I, I ate meat and I should probably do more to reduce the amount of meat that I do eat. But I was thinking it's, it's such a great move for a big business to just enforce something that's not really gonna ruin people's days just because you can't go out on the company card and drop a fucking $300 steak at, uh, Wilinski's and Smith or some, you know, high-end steak restaurant. I think it's one in New York. But it, it totally makes sense. It's, it's big business coming to the front to, to do something that's not like outrageous. I don't think it's that outrageous.

Josh: Yeah, well, I think that it would have been outrageous if they were— like, the use of the words banning and stuff like that has this implied, you know, thing that they're banning it sort of within the whole business. I mean, this is just if you are getting your lunch free from the business, if the business is paying, then they're not— they don't want to be paying for me. Yeah. Which I think is very different.

Tommy: It's a, I think it's a forward step though, 'cause imagine if like majority of the big companies, you've worked for big businesses and they're always putting on lunches or, you know, it's always cured meat plates hanging around. So if like you remove that across thousands of businesses, you would at least contribute and you don't even have to be a vegetarian, just don't eat it within the work hours. Yeah, I think it's fine.

Josh: I wonder about alcohol. Like, I've worked at businesses where, like, meetups and company events, it's common to have like a real piss-up. And, um, you know, these are companies where the founders don't even drink. And so I've always, I've always wondered where, whether the next stage of these sort of, um growth for businesses, you know, with the sort of in line with the, you know, the Me Too campaign and things like that, is to actually say, well, is alcohol, is providing unlimited booze at a work function a good, a good sort of concoction within the workplace?

Tommy: Can I just tell you about one, one of the stories? Christmas party. I think it was the same Christmas party I, um, someone at the workplace— I mean, you could probably guess from listening to the podcast which one it was. I was working there for a little while on the street team, and then, uh, the one Christmas party, I— there was people like necking bottles of red wine because it was getting late and like the bar had closed, but people just grabbed bottles of red. And I— this was like one of, I reckon, probably the last time where I've had a blackout where I literally couldn't remember how I got home. And so, but the funny thing was I woke up in the morning thinking, holy shit, how am I in my bed? How do I have my phone here? And I had to go to work. But 2 weeks later, still couldn't remember Josh. And I know you've probably never had this, and it's something you do not want to have— blackout. I was on the tram going past the office, and I looked over to the fish and chip shop, which is directly opposite, and I saw the owner Jim out the front, and it just fucking came flooding back to me. It was like a movie scene where they do a montage of just what had played out. I literally— I would—

Josh: if it would have been me, I would have eaten a minimum chips, a few flakes. Like, I would have— if I'd flaked out, I would have been like, I ate all of that.

Tommy: I probably would have remembered if I did that. But no joke, I saw Jim's face and I thought, oh shit, it flashed back. I saw Jim as I came out of the building. I was pissed and I was like, mate, what are you doing? Are you going? And I was like, can you give me a lift home? And I remember him giving me a lift home and I was nearly sick in the car and I got home safely thanks to Jim from the fish and chip shop.

Josh: That was nice of Jim. So did Jim, was the look on Jim's face one of like excitement to see you or was he Did he look a bit sort of— what was the vibe you were getting off him?

Tommy: Well, when he gave me a lift home?

Josh: No, when you saw him the day, like when, you know, afterwards.

Tommy: Oh, fuck no, no, it triggered all those sort of things. I was on the tram and I— and he didn't see me, but I saw him, and then I felt embarrassed because I was like, I would have been a bit sloppy. And, uh, I did see him again and I was like, oh, thanks for the lift. And he was a bit like—

Josh: how often do you apologise for being like, uh, drunken behavior? Well, it depends on in your life how many times, how many How many times have I done it?

Tommy: Oh, I think only a couple of times. I probably should have more though. I remember once I was fly kicking a roller door. I don't even know why. Of James, who I talk about on this show a bit.

Josh: Our mate.

Tommy: Our mate, yeah, our mate. I was fly kicking James's roller door and he had people, clients inside. It was like on a Saturday and he cracked it at me. He's like, mate, that was not on the next day. I was like, oh, I'm so sorry, dude.

Josh: So it's like during the day and you're just hammered.

Tommy: It was like afternoon on a Saturday, but then I got these texts from him and my heart fucking sunk the next day. And I just have these— I just— the montage of me doing a fly kick into a— to a roller door because it sounded cool.

Josh: What do you think about text messages for like delivering bad news? You know, text form versus in person. Do you have any strategy around when you send a text versus when you call versus when you email?

Tommy: Oh, I think I've probably got them, but I've probably broken them all. I think I broke up with girls over text when I was a kid, when I was year 8. So, 3210, 3210, just typing it out. I could do it with my eyes closed. I got good at that. But, but yeah, you shouldn't break up with people over text. You shouldn't do anything serious over text, but I have. I know sometimes it's like maybe it's the right thing to do because you can articulate what you want, but even if you do articulate to the best of your ability, people can still perceive the tone of a text message. So you can't really— you can't communicate tone, um, yeah, through anything that's written because you could say—

Josh: I feel like I almost do it So to give the other person, like, to help them save face. Like if I'm sending a message, say in James's case, you send a message so it gives you an opportunity to reflect rather than be caught in this situation where you might escalate it or you don't have time to reflect.

Tommy: Well, I mean, for James's case, I think a text message was perfectly fine. And it was, I mean, all I was doing was fly kicking a door and there was no massive repercussions from it. I didn't break anything, but it was more like, dude, think about this, you're a fucking idiot. Yeah, I was, I was. Hey, at that same party that I was talking about that I can't remember, I think a girl broke her elbow because she slipped over in the kitchen. But I mean, if you're sober, do you think she would have broken her elbow? I don't know, maybe. But I think you do have a point.

Josh: Yeah, and I mean, I've been to ones where they've had ice sculptures and they'd be delivering shots through a hole and shit like that. I don't know, I just think, I don't feel like I'm a, what is it, a fuddy-duddy or whatever it's called, but I just wonder whether booze, because like I've known companies where people have had sex in the disabled toilets and all that sort of thing, it's like, is, I don't know, do you think that that's— oh, if there's two single people, uh, who are at a Christmas function, do you think it's okay to have sex in the disabled toilets?

Tommy: See, I, I, well, actually, I don't think so. I don't think it's that bad if it's consensual and it's like whatever. I think it's just two people acting, but I don't think that people would do it if they weren't drunk. So it's like, I don't think it's the best move. Um, yeah, I don't—

Josh: but if you're drunk also, like, what is being consensual if you're off your face anyway? I just feel like bring the workplace, bring in booze, bring in sex, and it's probably— and like being at the office and stuff, it feels like it's a—

Tommy: it's not a good concoction opportunity, I think. Yeah, I think for anyone it's like probably you shouldn't do it. I don't know anyone who— I don't know anyone personally who's done— who's done that at a work function. I know people have made out at work functions, but there's always— you cannot— nothing stays a secret at a work function. It's always—

Josh: well, clearly, once JJ knows, he's sending out text messages.

Tommy: Yeah, so here's the thing, there's these— there's all these little— I updated the intranet There's little snakes who are walking around and they're not drunk and they're taking notes. That's what you're doing.

Josh: Are you calling me a little snake?

Tommy: No, not directly. I'll text it over to you pretty soon.

Josh: I don't, I feel like that is one of my fears. I feel like when I am not drinking at a Christmas party or whatever is that I have that perception of myself that I'm like a little snake. And there is that sense of like, okay, I don't want to, Whatever happens here that people are just getting loose, I'm just not going to mention it.

Tommy: Uh, have you heard that stuff about Netflix and the protocols while working for Netflix when it comes to interactions with other colleagues? I heard that it's— it sounds— I thought it was— it sounded like a complete joke. So the headline is 5 Seconds of Eye Contact: Netflix's Most Ridiculous Rule. So New rules reportedly include no looking at anyone for longer than 5 seconds, no lingering hugs, no flirting, and no asking for a colleague's phone number.

Josh: Yeah, interesting. Yeah, I mean, this is the thing. I feel like within the— once you take anything out of its original context, which I guess is what the news does it, um, it can completely change the vibe of what's going on, right? If this is part of a much bigger cultural shift that's happening at Netflix that we're not a part of, it might, might make complete sense.

Tommy: Yeah.

Josh: And this is the same thing with the, um, the WeWork meat ban, is it's like the people have gone through some sort of onboarding to get to this sensitivity which we're just not, um you know, we don't experience.

Tommy: Well, I think the— I mean, the meat ban is low scale in comparison to telling people how they should actually communicate and interact on a human level. Just, just saying, look guys, you can't eat that. But in saying that, I, I— yeah, I agree. Taking away— if you take away alcohol from Christmas parties and shit like that, people— you'll find half people half the people won't rock up in the first place, but maybe it would push towards more people slowly being able to deal with, you know, social engagements without alcohol. So it's a, it's a, it's an interesting one. I think if the big companies do make the move to do alcohol bans, it probably will reduce broken elbows, people having blackouts and having to say sorry to their fish and chip shop owner.

Josh: But it would definitely, I think it will also definitely reduce the amount of people that are attending meetups and stuff like that. 'Cause there are a lot of, the other argument of it is there's, it is a social lubricant and there's a lot of people who wouldn't be talking to each other if they hadn't had a glass of wine or a beer.

Tommy: Yeah, well, I'm 16 days off the piss. Haven't had, haven't had that. Really? Yeah, I, uh, I'm doing Dry July, mate, without the donation part.

Josh: Ah, it's July. Oh, great.

Tommy: So I got on board, I got on the bandwagon.

Josh: You're like the sick people that do Movember without having an account, just growing a mo.

Tommy: Hey, you know, I'm doing my bit for charities in other ways. I donated $1,600 to Clean Up Australia Day last year. I'm just going to find my thing for this year.

Josh: Uh, no, I think you just say, just got to find the receipt, wink wink.

Tommy: No, there's a bit of inside gear there. And yes, for anyone who is thinking that I never did actually donate the money, I did.

Josh: You were paranoid that people didn't think— you were trying to work out ways to communicate, not because you wanted to show off about how much you donated, but because you're worried that people would have thought TJ ran off with it.

Tommy: Yeah, I mean, it's very tempting when you have that cash there. You see how you actually see how people slip into when they're doing charity donations.

Josh: Well, I— yeah, well, there was, there was a lady who got done. Um, she was the CFO for a— or treasurer for a big charity And she was just done recently in the past, like, couple of months. She was working in regional Australia and she'd sort of bought a house using the money.

Tommy: Oh, fuck.

Josh: And, but she had like a plan of like paying it all back and stuff. It's a bit of a disaster.

Tommy: You've totally lost it if you think that is sensical. Oh, I'll pay it back before they realise.

Josh: Yeah, it's pretty crazy. Hey, I've got a new segment. Oh, shit. It's called What's the Point? And what it is, is I will ask you what's the point of something and we can just riff on it.

Tommy: I like this.

Josh: So, today, Monday's What's the Point? is what's the point of social media?

Tommy: Alright, he's gone very big for the first ever What's the Point? Maybe we should get heads up for some of the big ones. No, Amy's actually— she deleted her Instagram and Facebook, and she was saying, she's like, I actually just didn't go to— I didn't, I didn't go to the apps because I wasn't getting notifications. And so like, when I wake up, I have Instagram notifications Facebook.

Josh: So she's just turned off notifications, did you say, or she's deleted the app?

Tommy: Deleted the apps. Um, the— so my point being, I don't even have anyone liking my shit. It's just random notifications, but then I'll click into it. So you start just— it's just sucking time. I think, what's the point? Uh, I think there's their point that they have, which is, uh, Mark Zuckerberg initially wanting to connect people. And now it's to make as much money.

Josh: So that's the thing, I, I think about like the individual, like think about it at an individual level. What's the point of you having social media?

Tommy: To connect with other people. Isn't that just what it is? It's a social networking, so it's over the internet, so it's like just removing the face-to-face and the, uh, the geographical issue for anyone. Yeah, but so what are you thinking about? What— why are you thinking about—

Josh: I've been thinking about— I've been thinking about, uh, being away, and there's like— there's a lot of comments where it's like, oh man, uh, I'm so jealous of your trip, or it's like, oh, fuck you, you're in Europe, that sort of vibe from people. And I think about, I'm like, the only, I have a moment of like, oh, if it's not bringing people joy, why are they consuming the content? And I think that there's, even going away, there's a bit of a, there was sort of a thought that I had, which is like, oh, how much should I be posting? How much is a respectable amount to post? So that I don't sort of come across as gloating or stuff like that. And it was just, it got me thinking around social media. And it's like, does, I guess the question that people need to ask is like, is their Instagram feed making them happier?

Tommy: Mm. There's, I just typed into Google Drake and his song lyrics from his latest album where he, does this whole thing about social media. And I'll just, I'll just read for you Drake's lyrics. In one of his songs, he says—

Josh: another segment, Drake's lyrics with Tommy—

Tommy: Drake's lyrics explaining, uh, what, what's the point. He says, I know a girl whose one goal was to visit Rome. Then she finally got to Rome, and all she did was post pictures for people at home, because all that mattered was impressing everybody she's known. I know another girl that's crying out for help, but her latest caption is, "Leave me alone." I know a girl happily married till she puts down her phone. I know a girl that saves pictures from places she's flown to post later and make it look like she's still on the go. Drake.

Josh: Drake. Who's the girl?

Tommy: I don't know.

Josh: Who's he talking about?

Tommy: I don't know. Loser. No, no. But I—

Josh: No, it's interesting, but I just, I feel like it's a conversation worth having because, um, uh, yeah, I don't— because like, what is the point? Like, I guess what's the point of— I was asking myself, what's the point of me posting on social media? And, um, you know, for me it was like, okay, I post— like, the actual— if I go real deep, one of the reasons that I post on social media when I'm travelling is because I started using Instagram in the early days, and I would post when I would travel. And Instagram used to have a map where you'd be able to see everywhere you've been. So I could— I remember when I went on my round-the-world trip a few years ago and zooming out, and I'd be able to be like, oh cool, like I can, um, see where I ate in London or did that thing in London and go back there or do this or do that. And so For me, it was sort of the accumulation of these like GeoMap type of things, which, which got me sort of really into it and into that habit.

Tommy: Yeah.

Josh: Um, and then also like my mum, like my parents and my family enjoy it. But I mean, what's your, what's your gauge on this stuff?

Tommy: Yeah, so like, I think if it's, I think it's like why are you going to the gym or what you're trying to do with your business. If it's like working out the goal of what you want out of it, and that's okay to have. If your goal is to build a following to then, you know, give you influence to then be able to build a brand or a business out of, that's okay. I think, but I think, I think people, I think there's a majority of people that will not even go that far, that deep.

Josh: Yeah, but this— but that's the thing, most people aren't trying to be influencers in a big way. So then the question becomes, you know, I guess it's a two-part question: what's the point of posting, and what's the point of consumption?

Tommy: Yeah, I don't see much point of consumption, and— but I feel like it's a problem. I think about when I'm spending time with Bodhi, my son, and I catch myself just looking at bullshit, swiping through bullshit. It's like it is just ingrained into my— it's like a pattern of just like, you sit down, you go for it, and you pick up your phone. Like, it's, it's so toxic. I mean, I— yeah, I think it— and I think the more I consume, the more ill it makes me feel. Like, I feel like it traps me.

Josh: Why? What is the— what's the actual feeling?

Tommy: I feel like it's sometimes— it's like paralysing for me to then create. So I feel like I think about that I'm not creating and I'm consuming and I'm watching all this shit, and then I feel like, fuck, I'm in this pattern. It's like a cycle.

Josh: Yeah, and so it's, it's almost like, um, like I was thinking about it potentially in the idea of comparison. So it's like where what I found interesting is I've seen like probably half a dozen posts that have mentioned, um, that people's friends that are currently in Europe.

Tommy: Yeah.

Josh: Um, and people like— I've seen more people talking about their friends in Europe than I've probably seen posts of people in Europe. And what I was thinking about was the, um, that's that quote around like, comparison is the thief of joy. And so if comparison is the thief of joy and social media is this feed that gives us these small moments to compare ourselves in our current situation with others, doesn't that mean that's almost like the thief of time? Yeah, not to get super profound, but, um, yeah, I just think that it's, um, I, I, I really wonder about it.

Tommy: I don't know how much joy social media is actually bringing people on a deep level. It's, it's, it's very surface.

Josh: It's—

Tommy: I think it is, it does rob you of a bit of joy. Like, I— there's probably times that I felt worse after looking at social media than I have. Yeah, before I even started. It's, it's, yeah, I, I've thought I would love to go away and disconnect and, and be forced to, but then see, I think we're in this, we're in this tricky part because we're creators and it's a part of our business. And so maybe it's an excuse that we're just putting out there, but it's in our best interest to optimise what we're doing. Like, I think about You and I both talked about the strategies of, you know, some people using on social media that is like, just comes across as a bit gross, or like you just see that they're trying to build up their following. And it's like, maybe my aversion to that actually is detrimental to the thing, you know, increasing that for the outcome of the business or to build influence online. To, you know, it's like for this podcast, we think about how are we going to get this out there doesn't just tell its— yeah, doesn't just find its way into people's ears. There is a level.

Josh: I think that, yeah, like with the, with the social media, like one of the other observations has been how I might not see someone in a while and then they've, through social media, they've manufactured their viewpoint of me, whether good or bad. Through social rather than through interaction. So I've had like cases where it's like people have all of a sudden been really weird and I'm like, hang on, I haven't actually— we haven't really had any— we've had normal interactions in person. And then so it becomes this really weird thing where I'm like, actually, I think that maybe there must be something that you've interpreted through my online communications that have made you feel weird.

Tommy: Yeah, but then that's your personal brand. So then that's, I mean, something we've never had to think about before. It's very fresh. 2004, wasn't it? Facebook started in 2004, something like that. But it's like we've never had to think of our personal brands at the scale that we do now. And social media is the platform where you are communicating your personal brand, whether you like it or not. Whatever you post, your comments to people, like every interaction And so it is probably something within your madness of JJ world that you've, you know, you've done some crazy storey about this thing that you were curious about. You're like a dog with one dick, because I'm the dog with three dicks. But you've been so, so excited about something, someone's just haven't understood that. It's like, do you see that post I put up? And it was like, uh, a massage parlour in St. Kilda that was— I thought it was just a normal massage parlor, but they got closed down because they were a brothel. And I filmed Amy going up to it, and then she turned away, and I said, "Oh, what's going on here?" I said, "You always look happy when you come out of that place." Anyway, I was thinking about— and Amy was like, "Oh, don't post that." And I was like, "Should I post that?" It was one of my best posts, by the way. It got a lot of traction, but it was a bit smutty. But it was probably better that it was Amy that I was saying looks happy than a bloke. But I was like that, I was just breaking down even that simple, like that single post to go, what is that communicating? And what do I, is it worth it? And I was like, maybe I'll just try it. 'Cause I saw maybe it's like a bit insensitive to people that end up being in brothels and having to work there and I'm being insensitive. And I was like, I could go down that and then just not do anything. But just a shout out to Trevor Long, he said he watched it 10 times, laughed his ass off. Thanks, Trev.

Josh: The Insta story?

Tommy: Yeah, the Insta story. But I'll post it up on our, I'll post it up on our, the Daily Talk Show if you haven't seen it.

Josh: Yeah, give it a new bit of leg. You've clearly, you've been at, we've been able to reconcile, hear your thoughts on it. And we're now going to go hard. Let's do it as a sponsored post.

Tommy: Isn't that crazy though, that that's how much thought went into that thing? And I just like, I was just considerate even though I posted it, but I was like, this is where my mind has gone. This is what social media does. It has the world thinking in a way that they've never had to think before.

Josh: But I think that the really interesting thing about it is that there's sort of almost this, um, paradox. I feel like I use this at least, you know, phrase every single show now, but the paradox of empathy, which is like, we— in that moment, you, you were bringing a lot extra empathy that you normally wouldn't bring, which was, how, how is this going to make all these people who follow me feel, right? And on the flip side, we have we then lose empathy because we don't have the face-to-face interaction. So, people judge each other on the one post they do and they try and create a narrative around, "Ah, they're posting this, but they're probably thinking this," or, you know, I think it's, um, I think that it's very common. Like, I made a short documentary when I was 17 all about social media, and it was a time where teachers were freaking out about it, and it was like, it was everything in the news and what we were even studying in school was like the effects of social media and the negative side of social media. And so I think that it's a, it's a, um, it's something that's been out there and it's such a common thought Yeah, but I also— maybe like we can look at it in a different angle, which is, you know, what is the point? Like, what is the point of me posting? I've definitely, um, removed the amount that I'm posting, um, like reduced— sorry, the amount that I'm posting.

Tommy: Yeah.

Josh: And I think that part of it is doing this podcast because I have a level of self-expression a different way.

Tommy: Yeah. And, and maybe it is— that's what you You hit the nail on the head finding the thing that's most congruent to who you like, your values or your art or your craft. Because maybe it is for the person that posts, you know, on social media every single day, like just a thought.

Josh: Like, I think it's so hard.

Tommy: Like, look at Craig Harper, my friend. It's like he does the whiteboard lessons where he literally just one day decided to write what he might just put into a status on a whiteboard and took a photo and put it up and it's just gained so much traction and it's changed his world in terms of his online presence and the way he's able to communicate with his audience and who he has consuming his content. So it's like his why is probably more thought out than most people's. And so, and his message is very clear. In terms of what he's trying to do in his brand. But, and I think maybe you, maybe you've dipped your toe in and pulling it out.

Josh: Um, and well, I think there's a difference, right? Because what, um, what Harps is doing is taking the, uh, he's, he's being a thought leader. He's taking his thoughts and his, in his ideas and he's elevating them versus if you're just posting your holiday photos or posting stuff around your house, you are the protagonist of that story. I reckon what Craig Harper is doing, the protagonist is actually the idea, and he has his themes around like, you know, how he, his own voice. But I think that it's harder to, um, you're not seeing his face every single time. You're not saying like, you, you are seeing, um, a whiteboard with text, which I think has a different emotional response to actual photos of people.

Tommy: Yeah. What do they say? Uh, there's the more— there's never been people more connected but disconnected.

Josh: Yeah, and, and I think that it's— yeah, I don't know. I, I think that the, the question that I'm even asking myself, and maybe this is helpful for other people as well, but it's like, who's someone who you haven't seen for, uh, seen for, say, the last few months, who you have had a negative response about them or thought about them in a negative light who at the time when you're hanging out with them, you are absolutely fine. 'Cause I reckon that there's been dozens of people in my life who every time I catch up with them, I love it and I have a great time. And then slowly, the longer that we're just connected through social media and not having that one-to-one interaction, you start to have doubt of their character or things like that.

Tommy: Well, pull a Campden and text message them, pull your fucking head in, mate, stop fly-kicking my door, and your personal brand is coming across like shit. But my thinking has always been—

Josh: But do you think, I don't know if it is, but this is the thing, I reckon that the feelings that we have about other people and what they're doing on social media probably has more to say about the person who's having those critical thoughts than what the actual person's doing.

Tommy: Yeah, but okay, so that's haters, right? You can't help have people hate on you when you're becoming successful and living a life. So then all you can control is how authentic you're being and how—

Josh: What about if the haters are your friend? Like, the question that I have is whether people who are close to you, if they're, you know, if they're giving off that vibe or they're you know, if you're feeling that way about a close friend or a friend or whatever it is, maybe you're not a hater. I just think it's, I think that it's—

Tommy: Yeah, but I think it's a level of hater 'cause I don't have any friends that are my true, true, true friends that I feel that way. And I have plenty of like associates that I do feel like that, but I—

Josh: Acquaintances.

Tommy: Acquaintances, I was waiting. But I don't feel—

Josh: Associates, you sound like you're some sort of hitman.

Tommy: Um, but I can't control how other people feel. So what are your controllables? How you are acting and putting yourself out there. That's all you can do. And how someone— and I get it, and I don't think we can avoid it because it's like if you were hanging around that person every single day, you would probably find something that pisses you off.

Josh: And now, do you think I'm more annoying being away than I am when we're together all the time?

Tommy: Oh, hell no. You're more annoying when you're around all the time, but that's why I love you.

Josh: Do you reckon that really, like, if you were to deconstruct it, do you think that's the case? Do you think that the distance makes the heart grow fonder, or do you think that there is a level that people think, like, when you're away, you get a bit disconnected with them or disenchanted because you're not spending, you're not being able to empathise constantly and be in it together?

Tommy: 100%, you are just, Even you, I feel more disconnected to you just because of the distance. We're talking all the time, we're doing 5 shows a week, but in comparison to what, how much time we actually spent together before, yeah, definitely. But it doesn't change anything. I think it's like, it is what it is. You can't really do much.

Josh: Sounds like you're breaking up with me.

Tommy: We're over, mate. I was gonna do it in a text, but I'm fucking now gonna do it in person.

Josh: Do it on a podcast, that's a very modern day thing to do. Matty, Moulton sent us an email with a podcast recommendation, but he also said he's been smashing the 7-Eleven coffees and he can't believe how bloody good they are.

Tommy: Mate, how much cut-through does that have?

Josh: This is the thing, like you just, I don't know what it's taught us, but it's definitely got cut-through.

Tommy: Mate, oh, there goes the bell.

Josh: Yep, it's, uh, you'll hear it, uh, 7 times for 7 AM in the morning.

Tommy: What are you doing today? Just quick, just quickly, so today, no one gives a shit, but I'm interested.

Josh: So people have tuned out, uh, so we're in Serrano at the moment, mediaeval town, been here for 7 days, had a blast, spent a bunch of time with Chris, our Airbnb host, who's been Heaps of fun and super interesting, and I've been reading his book about Serrano, and that's been awesome. We're heading to Rome today, so we drive an hour to a train station, drop off the car, and then we'll be in Rome by around midday.

Tommy: Awesome. And where are you staying, at a house or an apartment?

Josh: No, we're staying— What's the place called, Breezy? What was it? Piazza Nemona or something. She's saying something, another word I can't understand.

Tommy: It's a piazza.

Josh: But it's, well, piazza is like a town, is a square, but it's, that's one thing that I learned just meeting at the piazza. But yeah, no, man, I'm having heaps of fun. And we've, it's been interesting. I was asking, Rob Ward of Quad Lock, who's a mate of ours, and I always love his thoughts and feedback and stuff. And I was asking him about the show and stuff like that, and he was saying, yeah, definitely it sounds different. And even this morning I woke up, like, we were gonna do the show at 6 and I woke up at 5, and like, it's so funny, the lizard brain, which can sometimes happen, which is like, ah, this isn't the best that we could be doing. It's a little bit harder remote. And it's really interesting in those moments to be able to flick it. Have you found that you've, through that and doing this different thing, it's almost like starting afresh?

Tommy: 100%. I just, I haven't been able to kick a cold for 2 weeks, 3 weeks. It's fucked.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: So yeah, I just wanna go home and sleep, but it's good. But this is it. It's like fronting up, doing something creative stretches you. That's like legit. If you can hold on and get through the times, it's like, it's not always fun. Nothing's— nothing is always fun, even the fun.

Josh: And that's not a reason to end shit. And that's not that. And I think that that's been the biggest lesson for me, is it's like, it's like this compounding thing where it's like, you think about investing or whatever, people always leave, you know, grab and run early, where it's like, actually, what happens if I just stay and keep going? Um, so yeah, that's interesting. Any, anything, any other, uh, internal business at your end? What's anything else exciting happening, mate? That's it from your— yeah, great. We got an email from Michelle as well who sent a great article around, um, subscribe digital subscriptions and basically, um, how we don't own anything anymore, which I can sort of relate to because I've just got all these, uh, you don't realise how many subscriptions you have until you you know, while we're traveling, we've got like a better budget. So I'm being very deliberate with, okay, the company's not spending money outside of the subscriptions I have. Yeah, you can see.

Tommy: But then you really start to see, hey, I checked your PO box.

Josh: Oh great, anything?

Tommy: Nothing.

Josh: Really? Absolutely nothing?

Tommy: There was one, one letter that was, I think it's just like a bank statement. Um, for Bree, but I opened it.

Josh: Oh, perfect.

Tommy: I didn't.

Josh: Yeah, great. It's probably the credit card or something.

Tommy: Uh, that's it, mate.

Josh: Yeah, great, mate. Uh, if you, uh, if you enjoy the show and if you've listened this far, it means that you, um, might not hate us. So you're the perfect person to leave us a review through Apple Podcasts or through iTunes. We had a couple— we had one person, TJ, say that, um, that we sometimes, uh, are out of our depth, but they still, um, like listening, which I can 100% relate to. If you hear our Jehovah's Witness—

Tommy: yeah, yeah, yeah—

Josh: stuff up front, you'd probably agree.

Tommy: I'm, I'm guessing that, that they're Christians that write that feedback. In fact, it's probably my wife.

Josh: Exactly. She's just created— she's got— babe, why have you got 7 iPhones in different accounts? What are you doing? Just like trolling you on every single one of them. It's a Daily Talk Show, everyone. Hi@thedailytalkshow.com if you want to send us an email as well. Otherwise, we'll, uh, we'll see you tomorrow. Bye.