Working for free

Tommy: Wait a minute. Crossface, the daily talk show. A conversation sometimes worth recording with Josh Janson and Tommy Jackett.

Josh: It's a daily talk show, episode 127.

Tommy: What is up, yo?

Josh: We've, uh, This has been probably the longest it's taken us to sort out from a technical point of view.

Tommy: I don't care what they say, it's easy to do a show, international, every single day.

Josh: Yeah, that's okay, it's alright. At least we're getting it done, which makes me happy. But just so you know, there may have been 7 minutes of recording before this.

Tommy: It was possibly the best podcast you'll never hear. Yeah, that's the name of this. That's the name of this episode, The Best Podcast You'll Never Hear.

Josh: I know. So, I guess we recap what we're saying. I was saying at the top of the show that I appreciate Dom Evans, who does the podcast, Prodcast, where he interviews like radio imaging people. So, the people who make all the sound sound good and shit like that. Man, I've done the worst explanation.

Tommy: You were saying, thank you. Well, he's an audio producer, and you were saying he made the intro to this show. He didn't personally voice it.

Josh: Yeah, I gave him all of these, I gave him these elements, and I was like, mate, can you put a little bit of something something on top of it, make it sound good, mix it up? And, um, yeah. Yeah, he nailed that. That was on, I remember, episode 100 before we had, before we had Hamish on.

Tommy: Here's the thing, there hasn't been a massive amount of compliments, and this is nothing to do with Dom. You just, you just put the, the pieces of wood together and made it look good. But there hasn't been a massive amount of compliments on the intro, which doesn't tell me that it's bad.. It just doesn't tell me that anyone's gone out of their way to say it. But I caught my brother walking down the stairs in my office humming, mm-hmm, mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Josh: And it works. It's more so, it's subtle. It's subtle, right? Where slowly, what's it called when you get people under their control, under your control? What's that called?

Tommy: Mind? A dictatorship?

Josh: Doing a thing with my hands. No, no, dictatorship.

Tommy: Puppet master.

Josh: No, not a puppet master. It's the thing that we're going to— I'm going to put you under a hypnosis. We're hypnotising people. Yeah. Through— if you actually slow it down really slowly, it says, um, I don't know, we don't even have anything to sell. I was going to say, buy our DVDs.

Tommy: We're definitely not selling DVDs. But I was actually talking to Craig Harper today and this is not— he asked how the podcast was going, but my point being that this is nothing about wanting to talk about our podcast, but how you gauge how something's going. And a lot of the time it's even— I mean, business, it's money coming in. You could look at videos as views to your video, or, you know, it's like there's a— the most go-to metric within anything you're doing. And it's weird because it changes across everything because it's like if something feels good, maybe that's the better metric than the numbers that are coming in, because over time it will equate to something great.

Josh: And, um, well, I think the only metric that we have is that it, it happens every single day. Yeah. And so, and that'll let— and it really— we realise that we've got a level that we want to get to in regards to entertainment factor, how interesting we are. But at the moment, we're really, we're really at the stage that people are when they're trying to lose weight, which is like we're literally going for a walk every single day. We're just trying that.

Tommy: Well, you gotta start somewhere and you can't jump steps. Like, you can't expect something to be awesome from day one, and it might be. There's no, there's no assurity in that it won't be or it will be, but chances are anything you're doing, anything you're doing, yeah, takes so long. We're talking— I was— Craig Harper, who was on the show, episode 90, I think it was something, I don't know. One of the 127 that we've done. But yeah, we're talking like he can put on a conference or a workshop and get 700 people there. And that's like, it sounds, you know, you go to it and it feels flawless. It feels like, oh, it's not that much effort's been put in. Look at him up there. He's just talking. But then it's like on the other side of that is like, that is actually so hard. The one thing going to all these events and filming them is like, Fuck, it is an absolute, uh, mission to actually get that many people to something. Like, it is so hard to actually make someone go out of the way to go to somewhere to watch you do something. It's fucking phenomenal.

Josh: I think that the other interesting thing that happens that I've been observing over the years is how other people's success or doing something rubs off on other people. In a good way, but also in a way that almost makes them feel like they have done something themselves. So, I've like worked at companies where employees will say, "Oh, I think it should be done this way or that way," as if they built this multimillion-dollar business. Yeah. And what they're forgetting is the person that's making the decisions, the founder or the CEO or whoever it is, they have actually done it. Like, it's if people forget those sorts of bits. And it's the same thing with going to those types of events. I think there's a lot of people that run events after seeing another event being run, and they bomb because they just— they think that they've done it, that because they've, they've gone to an event, or they've— people who watch movies think that they could make movies. It's like there is a huge jump between being a consumer of something and actually doing something.

Tommy: Oh, 100%. There's time, trust, like everything you've done previously, 20 years of experience that might, you know, attribute to why you can even get anyone anywhere. It's like the people that have come to you and I, and I've had a few of them, and it's the ones that want to create an online course. And, you know, the stats the math works out really great. 1,000 times by $30, if I sell it for $30, there's a lot of money.

Josh: Yeah, $30,000.

Tommy: Yeah, I didn't want to go there because I didn't know the math, but my point being, it's like, fuck, that is simple but the hardest thing you could possibly do.

Josh: Yeah, well, it just doesn't work. It just doesn't work out like that, right? It's just there's a huge— and we've been really realistic, I think, with even say the podcast metrics about like expecting way less. Yeah, but when I was on my— I went on a long walk around, um, Serrano yesterday, and I was like thinking the whole time, I was thinking about what you and I are doing next with our business, all that sort of thing. And I was thinking one of the, the filters that I think about is, uh, learning fast But growing steady, like steadily, rather than people like— I think people want to grow really fast. They want like the success really fast. But the problem with that is you haven't gone through the whole process to learn all the different things. And it's way easier to— it's way easier to end up losing that, right? Versus just growing it. It's like I was thinking about, it's like age, right? You can be more mature, you can learn more things than an 18-year-old, but if you're 18 years old, you can't all of a sudden rock up and say you're 25. It's just like the only thing that, the only thing we're working with is time in that regard. And you can't, there's nothing that can make you skip ahead of that time.

Tommy: Well, it's an even playing field with the equation of time. Although when I was 15, I was rocking up and I was 21 according to my fucking fake ID. And it worked.

Josh: What do you think about— I was reading a thread on Twitter about doing free work. And there's this massive movement at the moment where even MTV or their parent company had a class action against them which they lost. So the class action actually won. They had to pay money to a bunch of— just to be— Bri, can you make sure that you're— Bri's currently standing naked and I'm on FaceTime with Tommy, but you're fine there. But I just wanted to—

Tommy: no, there's no— your reception's gone shit house, so I can't see anything.

Josh: Okay, that's what you're saying, but we heard it. Um, but the, um, no, uh, so MTV was basically sued for having interns working for free.

Tommy: Interesting.

Josh: And all these people are saying, fuck free work, free work's the worst. Yet people are happy to spend a shit tonne of money every single, every single year on college. What's your vibe on free work?

Tommy: It's got its shelf life, but then You and I have done so much free work in our time, but it gets to a point where you— there has to be massive value in it. For me, I'm doing something for free for somebody, but it was my initiative this week, and I made it clear that the thing that I'm doing is worth $2,500 minimum is what I would charge, and I would rather do it for free than $250 or whatever, but they weren't offering that. So for me, the values high in it, in that I will have creative control to it, and I will then, as a good gesture, and pass it on to them. And it's like, I'm not even doing it because of that. It's sometimes— it's— you can be— I think I'm being selfish in some ways, but offering value on the other side of it for them. So it does even out the selfishness versus the value that you're bringing. So, um, yeah, I think it's got its shelf life doing free work. And you—

Josh: Yeah, well, go on. Yeah, well, one of the things that they're talking about is that if you have the ability to do free work, that we're somehow— we're in a privileged position. So, they're sort of saying, okay, if you can do free work, it means that you've got a roof over your head, you've got food on the table. And so, The thoughts around not allowing free work is that what they— what I was reading was that they say free work is a, um, something for a group of privileged people who don't need to necessarily make money to live. Yeah, but I just think that the— my view on it is probably the best way to get out of the poverty cycle would be to be doing free work, because if you're getting paid for it, you like— it's always going to be those menial tasks and it's going to be very transactional. Whereas I think about like, I grew up in, in the burbs. I didn't have, I didn't have a family that was in media. I didn't have, um, you know, I didn't have any contacts in that regards. But doing, you know, a course at the Victorian College of the Arts and doing all these sorts of things and doing heaps of free work and going into the city, like, that how that was like invaluable. So I feel like it's almost a missed opportunity.

Tommy: So you know how I told you that I got an email from a guy named Mason and the subject line was, I want to work for you for free, Tommy? And, um, I thought, perfect opportunity to exploit someone for free. No, I didn't. I, um, I appreciated his email and he's coming in tomorrow. He came in last week, but I I kind of said he was kind of communicating to me what he wanted to do for me, but I kind of was like, okay, I get that, but what do you want out of this? Because I thought that's really important. If someone's willing to do something for you for free, there's something, there's an agenda there, which is okay. The agenda just could be, I want experience. It doesn't have to be, I want to one day get money out of you. But I think it's, if Yeah, something interesting that he told me was his dad, because he's 18 and he was, you know, started going to uni and now has kind of pulled the pin because he said it was lame and not progressive, the business course that he was doing. But his dad was blown away that he was doing things for free for people and he couldn't quite understand, and maybe it's generational, that he was like, why are you helping this person for free, which is one way to look at it. But the other side is I know how powerful it is doing stuff for somebody for free. It's like when Craig Harper, when we— I've known him for 10 years, but I haven't been close with him like I am now, considering one of my really good mates. But I remember I emailed— I just started my production business nearly 3 years ago, and I pulled him up on Facebook, and I'd seen his content going up, and I messaged him. I said, hey Craig, uh, it's Tommy, hope you're well, mate. I've just, um, started my production company. I love the content you're putting out. I would, uh, love to help you out. I'm not looking for money, I just really believe in the content that you're creating. And so if I can be of any help, let me know. And he messaged me back, he said, I'm sitting here at my computer looking through my contacts working out who could help me with video stuff. What's your number? Which was like, serendipitous, like you'd never believe. And now we've created a friendship beyond our, you know, exchange business-wise. We're really good mates. We have lunch all the time. And so I saw that, but it evolved from there. And so if you're looking at that, he gave me an opportunity and he gave me an opportunity that trust was involved and he allowed me to be creative. And it's like shaped a lot of the content I've created from those opportunities. So doing stuff for free can give you a huge opportunity.

Josh: Yeah. And it's also the— it's a value transaction. I think that you need to look at it like rather than— because I just think about the numbers. I'm like, if, say, if you were to pay an intern $10 an hour or $20 an hour or whatever it is, like what would that do for their life? Like I actually much prefer saying, if you're really passionate about this, do 2 or 3 days of free work and then, you know, work a job, work 2 jobs to make it happen. And I think that, yeah, I also, I even think about like, sorry, I'm still clearly sick. The podcast, right, what we're doing is people really quickly, surprisingly jump to sort of how are you going to monetize? What's the, you know, how are you making money off this? And I guess we're in a unique position where we know that we can do this for free, for fun. Maybe one day that we make direct money from it, but we would be happy doing 1,000 episodes where we're not making money off it. And that's because we know that we can make a bunch more money making video content and telling storeys and doing that type of thing.

Tommy: Well, you can only get good at something by doing it shit to start with. And if you're getting paid while you're working it out, you're probably pulling the wool over people's eyes. And I mean, I've probably done that in the early days because I've— it's been out of alignment with, you know, my ability to sell something and my ability, uh, selling something, a product, versus my actual ability to create that thing. But then it, it definitely irons out. Like, I've I've seen this growth in what I've done the first year into the second year kind of dip down where it's like aligning because I'm understanding the value that I actually need to bring for the money that I'm asking for. And so when it evens out, yeah, you— it makes you know that if you are charging for it, there has to be a lot of value that you are bringing. It's just more promises. Money just brings a promise, right? It's a promise of delivering something. It's a promise of value in some way.

Josh: Well, yeah, I think that, and what we're doing is still a promise. I think that we're, us doing it every day is the one and only promise that we've really made. Yeah. So, as long as we're doing that, I'm really happy. But I think even with Patreon, which is a website where people can back you, they can basically give you a little bit of money every month. Month, almost like a subscription. You pick different tiers, and I've seen podcasts do that where, so they have 25, 30 backers, and say if those backers are giving $10 a month, that only— that's bringing in, say, $250, $300 a month. And for me, if you do the, if you do the calculations, what you're losing in regards to I feel like if you ask people to pay for something, then they've got skin in the game. They're expecting— they can get really pissed off when they're like, the audio was bad on this episode, or stuff like that, where it's like, it's not worth the cost of a Telstra bill to me.

Tommy: Yeah. What were you saying recently? As if, as if it's free, like we're still doing it as if we're not making money for it. I might be getting that totally wrong.

Josh: No, so no, the idea just being that like we're doing it as if it is the biggest show, right? We're doing it as if, I mean, it's the paradox. It's we're doing it as if there's a million people listening, but we're also doing it as if it's you and I in a room having a conversation.

Tommy: Yeah. And there's another bit around the, it's like, so if you see a lot of these creators, they start getting money in sponsors, it changes everything, right? And so if you can— I think if you could not monetize something and make that work out, that equation somewhere else, it's more powerful because you're doing it just because you love it, not because you're getting paid to do it.

Josh: Yeah, exactly. And I think it's a, um, it's definitely the, the direction that we're, we're going into. And it's, um, it's interesting, right? Because I think that we're playing in different, different models. The model of, um you know, getting, uh, having a client-based business where you're— it's an easy transaction where a company comes to you and they say, we are commissioning you to create this piece of work. And then, you know, they'll give you a brief in some cases, and you sort of do that versus where I guess we're wanting to play, which is doing, um, you know, doing original content and being paid by clients to bring our creativity. Because, um, I just— I'm not interested in being a commodity. I'm not interested in being a cameraman for hire. Or— I think that we have a lot more to offer than that.

Tommy: 100%. Um, how have you been? I haven't really asked you this. Like, I know we've talked about you disconnecting from what's happening here, but I could imagine if I was in your place where you haven't been running your business like you normally do, you haven't been in the day-to-day like you slip into in Melbourne. Um, have you had any shifts in your thinking in terms of, you know, what you want to do or be or create? Like, from a career point of view, has it been worth it, like, disconnecting from those elements of business and everyday life?

Josh: I think that the biggest thing is not compromising in some regards. So I think that we always have these intentions. I've started businesses before where I'm going to create original content, but it's been sort of a— it really has, whilst I've said it's Plan A, it's really been Plan B because I've needed to make money and I've gone into client type stuff. So I think that the biggest thing for me is constantly reminding me what it is that I actually want and not compromising on that. So, saying if this is— if creating original content, building this type of career and life lifestyle is what I want to do, then it doesn't make sense to be— doesn't make sense to be getting into the grind too hard on the other stuff because it's the wrong direction.

Tommy: I've been loving that book. I'm like 2 hours in. 2 hours audio reading. I've got another 8 to go of Small Giants, which, yeah, essentially he talks about challenging the norm on growth of a business. So it's like you build the business, you get lots of staff, or you, you know, you franchise, or you do an IPO, you list on the stock exchange, you get outside capital. So there's all these like traditional methods of growth in a business, but It's like he goes and investigates all these businesses that have at some point knocked back opportunities to have exponential growth or sell out for hundreds of million bucks. And it's, yeah, it's so fascinating because I'm so, I've been so caught up in, in my world and I think about every business I've had, I've had like 4 or 5 and all I've thought was start a business, you grow it, you try and scale it, you have this pain of working out how to get more people on board or sell, you know, more product or get more employees.

Josh: But it's like more clients, more employees, more work, bigger office. Yeah.

Tommy: And so it's, yeah, I've just been, it's like there is actually another way and all it takes is to actually, takes is you to think about on the other side what the success really looks like. And fuck, I've You literally hear so many people banging on about it. It's like, work out what your version of success is and then go for that. And it sounds so simple, but it's like, you— it's so easy. And I'm super guilty of being caught up in creating success that looks like someone else's, you know?

Josh: Yeah, and it's about being clear. I think that for most people, they don't know what it is that they're what success looks like for them. And so for us, it's taken a bunch of businesses and learnings and working from home, working from cafes, having an office, sharing an office, but, you know, all of these different combinations to then say, actually, I'm going to take these 6 things that I really like and double down on that.

Tommy: Yeah, yeah. It's, um, what Hamish Blake said, on episode 100, it's like what you're doing right now might not be the thing where you end up. It's the thing that you need to do to get to where you want to end up in the end. It's like, it's hard to swallow sometimes though, because when you were doing your Mediaflex business or your—

Josh: in, in— exactly.

Tommy: Um, if you were to think about that and get— it would be almost like numbing paralysing to think, oh, but hang on, if this isn't actually it. But I think as you get further, like where I'm now, I feel more convinced about where I'm going than I did the previous one. But at that point, it felt like the right thing to do in the moment. So it's like, it's, it's a funny existence.

Josh: Yeah, I mean, how do you— what, what do you think is the— if people are listening who are at that sort of solo operator stage you know, they're freelancing. What do you think are the biggest traps that, you know, obviously for, for a lot of people who are freelancers, having multiple employees is a bit of a pipe dream. Maybe even having an office is a pipe dream. They might be doing, you know, they might be getting a nice salary a year through their, you know, doing their freelance work. What do you think is probably the biggest misconception that you've come to realize?

Tommy: Um, I, yeah, I think it's The misconception is the way you think you can, you need to grow your business and challenging that. You've challenged me heaps on that in, you know, a year ago. And, um, I think it was the right thing to challenge. It felt fucking uncomfortable for me to think about, but I almost knew it's almost like listening. Fuck, it's like relationships. You actually know if it's not right. It's, you end up just lying to yourself that Yeah, really like this chick, but no, I've done it plenty, plenty of times. And the same with business. I feel it's like I kind of know, and it's also like looking at what, what rewards you. Like, I think the best thing about you and I going into a business together, it's like, it's, it's, it's been lonely doing it by myself. And so it's like those other people around you. That helps. Like, so I have MySpace and I've got people in there and it's nice to have people around, but they're not sharing my vision of what I want to create. And so I'm— I guess it's not saying you should go and find someone and go into business with, but thinking about what it is that you want from the business. And I think it— for me, it's like sharing the journey with somebody that's aligned with where I want to go.

Josh: And, um, yeah, and I think the other thing too is it's, um, it, it's, it is like a relationship in the sense of we didn't go into doing the Daily Talk Show with the idea that we're going to have a business together at the end of it, right? And so it is that thing of, I think that what probably happens a lot is people think about the thing, and I think that this is probably the biggest risk that we have at the beginning is getting excited about having this new business and focusing too much on the business rather than the fact of like— what I was thinking about a lot yesterday was actually the, the things that we want to do, what the business is going to enable us to do. So it's like creating original content and going out and making that versus— I think a lot of people can get stuck in, you know, especially with the sort of the startup world. It's like, yeah, I've got a startup and I've got the— and I've got my Slack, and now, you know, this is all, you know, it's, it's that versus actually doing the thing. And so for us, the daily talk show is already that thing. This is a constant, and, um, we'll do what we're doing with this podcast within a video context and within a broader storytelling context as well.

Tommy: Yeah, which totally makes sense. But why you don't do it before— and I think that's why it's like with your own business, if you've got like a solo operating, it's like you need to grind through all these hard feelings of not, you know, not sure how to grow it, not sure what I want to do. It's like it all adds to the next thing, which it sucks, it's annoying. But for me, I've got to like what I'm doing enough to get through that, because if you weren't actually in love with the thing that you were doing, and you know, you might be selling socks but you're actually in love with marketing, so that's keeping you in the sock business. But it's like, you need to— I think that helps you weather the storm of what we're talking about.

Josh: Well, I think the biggest self-criticism I've had with with me is that I've, um, I've never stayed on anything long enough. I've always, you know, had these fleeting projects.

Tommy: Yeah.

Josh: And, um, I think that if I look back on it, that was all context building. It was me realising early on this isn't actually— I could never sort of see super long term with these types of things. Yeah. Whereas I think I'm now at the stage where You know, I had a blog called Melbourne Geek. I still get emails today with companies trying to get me to review their products. Like, I've had lots of different cracks at things. Yeah. And I think a lot of people— it's again that paradox, which is, um, people will stay in something too long, um, when it's not right, but they'll also end something way too quickly. So it's this constant balance of, of, um, using your gut instinct and understanding yourself and, and, um, you know, what drives you. But, um, I mean, the biggest thing with this podcast, which what's— what it's taught me is just it is the showing up every day. It is the— even, you know, over the last 127 episodes, there's definitely been times where I've thought this is a bit of a grind, but I know that it is— that is the fleeting moment. It's almost working out which is the fleeting moment versus which is the constant. And so it's the same with relationships. If you have fleeting moments of arguments and stuff, that doesn't define your relationship. If the constant is, you know, happiness and joy and fulfillment, then, you know, you shouldn't end something because of a fleeting moment.

Tommy: Yeah, and it's weird what we stick at, and because I don't know the equation, like, I don't know why the fuck we've done— been able to do so many of these. And you can say that it's been enjoyable, and we're— but I don't know, it's like, I don't feel like I quite get it, get it, even if I try and be logical about it. Yeah, deconstruct it. I don't know why. It's like Yeah, it's dead. I mean, one thing, having someone else to be accountable to is— so there's a bunch of different things that you can definitely pinpoint, but I still, I still don't know because I could easily have just got, I can't be fucked today, you know, so many times.

Josh: This is, this is the thing that's interesting is it's the, uh, it's like when, um, I had this moment of joy 6 months ago where I started, um I'd been really— I'd always push back on doing my washing. I was always like, I'd always be reluctant and I'd put it off. And I just, um, I just started because my excuse was I've always got so much that I need to— I've got all these big things that I need to do. And what I realised was doing the smaller stuff, you know, it's that whole sort of, um, piece of advice of making your bed. But the thing that I came to realise was the small stuff turns into the big stuff. And it's like when I was, you know, doing— putting my socks on the line and doing all of that sort of stuff and just being consistent with it, I felt really, really good. And I think that it's a— it's the, um, it is focusing on the small stuff. I think that with this podcast, if we're to use this, just because everyone knows who's listening to this would know about this, that maybe been part of the journey. I think it's been— we have had pretty low expectations around it, um, with this again a paradox, low expectations with a high idea of where it could eventually go if we just keep putting in the work.

Tommy: Yeah, it's the, um, the Jordan Peterson advice, clean your room, man, put your 'Put your shoulders back, stand up straight.' That's a very good impersonation.

Josh: Yeah, he also coughs a lot like us. He'd be great on an hour. I've actually been thinking, have you noticed that he does it like the devil's coming out of him or something? Like he's actually an alien.

Tommy: It's because the dude's speaking 5 hours straight per day on podcasts about serious stuff.

Josh: It's really— I don't know, there's something a bit villain-like about him, don't you think? Yeah, you know, I've been thinking about this a lot, Gerald.

Tommy: I want him on the podcast. I'd love to sit down for an hour with that dude. It'd be great.

Josh: I feel— yeah, it would be, uh, definitely interesting.

Tommy: I definitely wear a Woof Woof t-shirt. He'd appreciate that. Good to see you're taking your white privilege seriously.

Josh: Well, it's the Daily Talk Show, everyone. Um, I don't think we've had, um, uh, many emails come in, but we, we had one from Cindy, my cousin. Oh yes. Uh, She had a good morning listening on the train in Melbourne, her third last day working in Melbourne. She's just up to 113, so it's going to be a while until she hears this one. But also, Sean tweeted me with this great link of Italian hand gestures and what they mean. It's called— it's the secret Italian hand gestures revealed by Daily Mail.

Tommy: So, try one, try them out and get Bree to video it.

Josh: We'll see how we go.

Tommy: But if it's the one where you run your fingers underneath your chin at somebody, don't do that one. That's probably telling them to get fucked.

Josh: Alright, man. Well, everyone, it's The Daily Talk Show. Hi@thedailytalkshow.com. If you've listened this far, it means that you might give us a 5-star review through the podcast app, through Apple, iTunes, all of that stuff. I'm curious if anyone's listening One thing I wanted to know, Tommy, if anyone's listening through the new Android, Android has its own podcast app now. I don't know whether they do reviews, but I'm curious as to if people are using it, how it is, what's it like? I've been thinking about moving to an Android eventually, maybe Pixel.

Tommy: If you do that, our business will crumble.

Josh: We won't have any iMessage, won't be able to do anything.

Tommy: Uh, all right, mate, I'll, uh, I'll speak to you. I, I really feel like this, guys, I really feel like this episode is literally recording the majority of conversations that we have that aren't on the podcast. This is just like, yeah, what we've been talking about every single day for the last like 8 months, 10 months a year.

Josh: I know, I wonder, like, it is interesting. I think that I've— it probably— the hard thing about doing this show, and we've spoken about it, is when we just, I wake up in the morning and we jump into it and all that sort of thing. And the difference versus just being present. And I think that we can both get a bit showman-y with it where we're, we get a bit sort of radioed, "Oh, tell me what's been happening today." "Oh, Josh, tell me, I'll tell you about me sauna." Well, if they've got that criticism, they can fuck off 'cause this is so hard doing it remote. Yeah, exactly. I know, we're getting there. It's a Daily Talk Show, everyone. I hope you have a good one. Love you, bye.

Tommy: Yeah, except you love you at the end. That was weird as fuck.