Leon Sjogren & The Mastinators

Leon: Wait a minute!

Tommy: Crossface!

Josh: The Daily Talk Show, a conversation sometimes worth recording with Josh Janson and Tommy Jackett. It's The Daily Talk Show, everyone. This is one of the pre-records.

Tommy: Uh, we've got a special guest.

Leon: Hang on, I didn't even make to the daily. I'm just one of the—

Tommy: Yeah, so this is—

Josh: we've got Leon Shergren on the show. No, we've, um, we're just pre-recording the guest ones because we're going away.

Tommy: Yeah, currently Josh is sunning himself in—

Josh: Do you say sunning myself?

Tommy: Sunning himself in Mykonos. Yeah, or somewhere within Europe.

Leon: Is that where you're going?

Josh: Yeah, I've got a dedicated ISDN line. Do you actually? I was gonna say, we've got a big budget for this show, Leon. How impressed would you be if I had an ISDN line?

Leon: I'd be very impressed.

Josh: But I was even thinking, wouldn't it be great to, there's a part of me which was like, if the internet's really shit, which is what I'm gonna be relying on to do the podcast.

Leon: Where are you going, by the way?

Josh: Bree knows, but we're going to, we're going to, Bree's in the room, that's why I said that.

Tommy: London and then to Italy. Italy.

Josh: And then we're gonna do like Eastern Europe, Montenegro, Turkey. And a bunch of other places. And a bunch of other places. Yeah, great. So I know that Vodafone in Italy's got the fastest 4G.

Tommy: Yeah. Geez, what's happening over in Italy with Vodafone?

Josh: I know, I know, that's where it's at. So anyway, we've decided that we're banking our guest ones 'cause it's good to have it in person. Thank you. And we'll put these out if there's any either one, technical or design.

Tommy: Leon, do you remember the days of us working on the street team?

Leon: Oh, I fondly remember that.

Tommy: Do you remember the day it was—

Josh: It sounded like people are gonna say, "Hey, I thought you didn't edit the show," Tommy's managed to do what sounds like an abrupt edit. Yeah, because I was boring.

Tommy: You were really boring.

Leon: Thank you so much for saving that. Remember, I tune out.

Tommy: So Leon and I worked at Fox FM in the early days, um, on the street team delivering icy cold cans of Coke. There was that one—

Leon: people say that and like as a joke, but we actually did that.

Tommy: We did exactly that. There was this one shift though that you and I did, and I want to know if you remember. It was after the Christmas party. I was so hungover and you were so hungover and we were driving out to where Josh grew up. We were in Berwick. We were in Berwick.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: And we were at some chicken shop and it was hell.

Leon: I don't remember that one. Like a lot of the shifts were hungover, but I don't remember that one specifically.

Tommy: No, that, that scarred me. It was, I think it was towards the end of my career as a street teamer.

Leon: Yeah.

Tommy: But it was hell. And you were there with me, so I'm glad I supported you through it.

Leon: I've got fond memories today because of me.

Tommy: You support and you, you drive, which I was really appreciative of.

Josh: Someone willing to take the—

Leon: Let's not say who drove.

Tommy: You can't breath test them. I did the pass.

Josh: I've never met someone that could drive so well completely drunk.

Tommy: No, I just hung over. I didn't say drunk. This is the day after.

Leon: Yeah, I just like, you can't breath test the past.

Josh: You can't breath test or the street team apparently. Yeah, it's like you get pulled over, oh mate, just give him a few cans of Coke, you're off. Mate, we're not doing anything.

Tommy: But when we used to drive these street team cars, they would have like, um, Hamish and Andy on the side, like their decals. People legit thought, oh, Hamish and Andy are in there, aren't they?

Leon: Yeah, exactly, because that's what they do is drive around cars with their faces on it.

Josh: Well, funny you say that because I was pitching to Tommy to have the Daily Talk Show on a decal, but I've quoted it up too expensive.

Tommy: How much?

Josh: $2,800.

Leon: What was the decal going to be, like your faces?

Josh: Yeah. Yeah, so well, it was going to be—

Leon: that's pretty like, no offense, not many people know what you look like.

Josh: But that's why we need to get our face out there.

Leon: Okay, you're good for it.

Josh: It's sort of like, you know, new, new team to the market, need to push hard.

Tommy: I was just thinking you've literally done the classic work your way up from the street team. Yeah, a legitimate role within the radio station.

Leon: Yeah, it's, uh, December this year will be 10 years in the company.

Josh: What do they give you after 10 years?

Leon: I think you get long service leave.

Tommy: No, you have to be— you have to have been an employee. We were just casuals.

Leon: No, I was employed because I was a panel operator. I was a street teamer. Do I actually— here's the fun— I don't know if you know this, but I was— I started off at Fox FM, the radio station, as a panel operator, so pressing the buttons for shows like the night shows, um, like, um, Jack Post. Yeah, used to do Cackling Jack. Cackling Jack. And, um, Episode 9. I wanted some— I wanted some extra cash and I wanted to get more job, like, you know, hours within the radio station. So I applied for the street team just so I can do that as well. And I got rejected.

Josh: Why? Because I was told— Metho test?

Leon: It's all my driving. I was told they wanted me to focus on panelling because not many people could do it. And then about a month later, 4 people quit at the same time. They came crawling back.

Tommy: You said, yeah, yeah, all right, just this once.

Josh: Well, Leon and I worked together for 11 months. Did you?

Tommy: Yeah. Oh, that's right.

Josh: Yeah, fond memories. Yeah, it was good. Leon's saying it with a smile on your face. What do you remember of that time?

Leon: Whenever you say that, I just remember you in an arnott's shape costume.

Tommy: Oh, that's right. And so what were you doing at the time, Leon?

Leon: I was a junior producer on that radio show, Fifi and Jules.

Josh: Yeah, and I was the digital content producer, and I was the classic trying to weasel content ideas. Yeah, on air. Very hard for me to get to do any social media stuff, but always had a phone.

Leon: I always want to be the talent.

Tommy: Was there a vibe of Josh wanting to be on air?

Leon: Absolutely. I'm still convinced the time that he pissed his pants, he did that on purpose for content.

Josh: Yeah, wouldn't put it all for content. All for content. Wouldn't put it past me.

Tommy: Okay, so then at that point you were a junior producer.

Leon: Yeah.

Tommy: And then, then you moved to Sydney.

Leon: Uh, no, then I was an EP. I was the EP of the National Drive Show when Dan and Maz. And then went to Sydney with Dan and Maz to do Breakfast for 9 months and were axed. And then did like a month on Rove and Sam and then went to Triple M and worked with Merrick.

Tommy: That was the length of the show, wasn't it? One month of Rove and Sam?

Leon: No comment.

Tommy: And, uh, actually, you don't know, that was in Sydney.

Josh: Leon has already said prior, I DM'd him today saying, hey, can, uh, I said, can you come on the show? He said, well, he didn't say yes straight away.

Leon: He said, I had some limitations.

Josh: Hey, I just don't want to go into sort of the right, the political side of the radio stuff, because if you're within the local context, uh, it's been very popular for radio personalities or going on podcast and thinking that it's just some conversation that's not being recorded.

Leon: A lot of people just don't realise they're being recorded.

Josh: Yeah, so it's a, um, I'm happy to—

Leon: I'm, I'm just talking about my where I've come from, where I am.

Josh: Yeah, exactly.

Tommy: And where you're going.

Josh: I was gonna ask before, I was gonna ask that over the 10 years, has SEA ever lifted the pay freeze? Because when I was always told—

Tommy: Pay freeze?

Leon: What's the pay freeze?

Josh: Maybe that was just for me. I was told that I couldn't get a pay rise because of the pay freeze.

Leon: I've had a few.

Tommy: It was for all the arrogant assholes trying to get on air that didn't know their place.

Leon: They were paying you in content.

Josh: That was sick.

Leon: We'll give you an Instagram post and then you'll be happy.

Josh: I had a recruiter tell me, they said, look, if you prove yourself after the first 6 months, you'll be— I asked for 10 grand for more than—

Leon: because you've been there for 6 months. As I said, I'm almost on 10 years, so I think I have the right to ask for that.

Josh: Yeah, I was still a bit disappointed.

Tommy: So, uh, we won't slander any, uh, past radio shows you've worked with, uh, but now—

Josh: and then Tommy's got nothing.

Leon: Can you hear Tommy's like, so, uh, I want to know then you— because I was at Triple M with Merrick.

Tommy: Okay.

Leon: And then I last— a year ago last week, I moved back to Melbourne to do the breakfast show on Fox FM.

Tommy: Right, now I'm up to scratch because I lost you for a couple of years. Yeah, you're in Sydney, I was in Melbourne. I was in Sydney, you're in Melbourne. Yeah, actually, yeah, yeah, we literally did the opposite. Yeah, so now we're back together, best friends. Early morning, nothing, it's like the street team.

Leon: Exactly right. I've got some cans of Coke.

Tommy: I'm actually drinking Diet Coke.

Josh: Coke Zero. Okay, which brings me to Coke Zero versus Coke No Sugar.

Leon: Oh God, finally got a sponsor.

Josh: Yeah, I wish.

Leon: Finally got a sponsor.

Josh: Um, breakfast, breakfast hours. How much does it fuck your life?

Leon: You know what, it doesn't for me much. Like, I, I have massive FOMO, so I like— I love going out. I go to a lot of gigs. Um, I just like not being at home, and so I make sure that I still do.

Tommy: What's happening at home? Is something going on?

Josh: That's really—

Tommy: is everything okay?

Josh: No, but you've got one of the best sort of bar areas. Yeah, exactly right. In your apartment. Yeah, it's very impressive.

Leon: I'm saying away from home to avoid that. Yeah, no, I just, I just, I, I don't nap heaps, but I try and get a little bit here and there. I go to bed 10 or 11, I'm up at 4.

Josh: You're outrageous. Like, I need 9 hours. If I, if I get less than 9 hours of sleep, he's a princess. Or 8 hours, so less than 8 hours. It's not ideal.

Tommy: Yeah, well, it's a bit— that's hard to achieve when you are waking up at 4 AM for your breakfast.

Leon: You run on adrenaline for a few hours and then you get busy after the show finishes, and then, you know, you get to 1:30, 2 o'clock, you're done.

Tommy: So now you're EPing the show.

Leon: Yeah.

Tommy: And for anyone who is thinking that an EP role sounds really glamorous, what— like, what's the What is your— how long are you having to stay in at work?

Leon: Uh, it changes around. Like, I'm— I get in at, you know, quarter to 5, um, scour the internet, look for ideas, and then the show's 6 to 9, and then you have meetings and action stuff that you need to do, and then you're usually out by like 1, sometimes 2 o'clock. It's like a— it's a normal work day, but then you're just always monitoring. I'm constantly monitoring news, Twitter, anything like that, just for content in the afternoons to, you know, follow up the next day.

Tommy: When I was in Shepp, I felt like it was constant, even though you finish at like 12, 1.

Leon: It definitely is constant, but I feel like— I know, I think regional must be a lot. I haven't done it, but I feel like it must be a lot. You haven't got as many people working with you.

Tommy: Like, there's two of us, mate, the two people on air.

Leon: I think including our on-air guys, there's about 10 of us. Yeah, so, you know, everyone's sort of like looking at the right things. We've all got enough brains to bring content.

Josh: And I just remember watching Paul Dowsley do that job, like, and it's like it takes a certain like type of person to be able to just like be relentless. And he now does, um, Channel 7 News.

Leon: I feel like the chasing leads and that sort of stuff, it's the same sort of thing. I love that as well, like chasing when a big news storey breaks scouring Twitter, looking for Facebook, like, finally, the family friends, and trying to get someone on the show.

Josh: What's the best get that you've gotten through all of that sort of stuff?

Leon: Um, I once found— actually, my first producing job when I was, um, on the Hot 30, the countdown show, I moved up to Sydney for that. It was when One Direction were just taking off and they were massive, and it was— Twitter was big, and I was just trying to find any angle to get— you speak to anyone about them and, you know, you'd get that's great content. And I tracked down, was it Zayn? It was Zayn's mum through like a lot of just searching around, looking on Twitter. Found out that one of Zayn's mum worked at the canteen at the school. So I would stay back till 2:00 AM one morning till the canteen was open, called and said, I'm just calling for this person, got her on the phone and then convinced her to do an interview.

Josh: Nah, amazing.

Leon: Back in the day.

Tommy: Was she a nice lady?

Leon: She was like, you went to this effort? Yeah, sure, great.

Tommy: And you told her, so what's the, sell to her?

Leon: Hey, I'm just from Australian radio station, massive fan of your son, he's coming here soon to tour, would love to, you know, hear about his childhood. And she was like, oh sure, great.

Tommy: Fuck, I wonder how removed they are from, you know, like he's amongst the fame, he's getting it, all the people around him are understanding that there's people coming from every angle. But mate, I mean, she still works in a canteen.

Leon: That's it.

Tommy: He's not funding her life on a yacht.

Leon: Yeah, exactly. Exactly right.

Tommy: So she's just thinking, "Oh, this is lovely." That's the canteen on the yacht.

Josh: The Canteen is just the name of the yacht. Man, that actually just reminded me of the— remember the producers conference that would happen at the— and I just remember it just popped up. I was doing some research for another guest and Rhys Maston's name came up.

Leon: Yes, man.

Josh: Do you remember Rhys Maston?

Leon: Yeah, like, what's he doing?

Josh: Like, is he— like, you're very much on top of pop culture.

Leon: Pop culture, yeah, yeah.

Josh: What's it— what gig level is he, is he doing now? I—

Leon: look, I've seen— I think he's still working on music. I think he's doing a lot of writing, not so much performing. I think— I know I've seen him around doing things, but yeah, I don't think they're commercial radio.

Tommy: Is that the same as— I'm, I'm Currently building a business.

Josh: Yeah, no, if you're freelancing.

Tommy: Business hasn't taken off yet.

Leon: Freelancing, yeah. For all I know, he's writing a lot of songs for massive pop stars.

Josh: No, I'm not going to shitcan him.

Tommy: I saw some people interviewing him recently from our station.

Leon: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Luke and Lewis.

Tommy: Luke and Lewis.

Josh: So it's all still fresh.

Tommy: But I think they're playing on the bit of the fanboying on Rhys Maston because he's not as prominent as he once was, but they still love him.

Leon: Nor are they, so.

Josh: Yeah, yeah. We've got to come together, right? If we're going to bring Rhys down, let's get them all. Hey, who else we got? Who else we got?

Tommy: No, Sam Kavanaugh used to use, who is one of the— what was he called, Sammy? What is Sam's role now?

Leon: He's an executive producer, content guy, slash content national. Yeah, he's— yeah, actually he's—

Tommy: he can call himself whatever he wants, but he's been, he's been at the forefront of some of the biggest shows in the radio industry in Australia. But Sam was doing a Prezzo and he would use Rhys Maston And have you seen this?

Josh: No. So I was— he— I remember Sam interviewed Rhys, and I think we took away from it like, oh, we need to— Rhys was saying like, you need to give your fans a name. Do you remember this?

Leon: Yes. So it's like, um, One Direction. Yeah, Directioners. Gaga has the little monsters.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: Um, Believers. Believers.

Josh: Believers.

Leon: Yeah, yeah.

Josh: So he was just saying like, the key to all of this shit, like, just, you know, is to come up with a name for your fans.

Leon: But I feel like it was— was it Mastinators? No, I feel like it was something like that.

Josh: Mastinators.

Tommy: That's what he wants to do. No, but he led the charge.

Josh: Wow. It's a real— I'm sorry, Leon. No, no, no. You really entered into a smut fest.

Tommy: Mate, we don't have filters here. We don't have a radio boss to hold us down.

Leon: I do, but—

Josh: Not anymore.

Tommy: Podcasts killed the radio industry.

Josh: Talking about podcasting, I mean, people are talking about podcasting a lot now, but what would have been over a year ago now that you did your Am I Funny podcast?

Leon: Yeah, it was like a year, uh, yeah, a year, 2 months ago, 2 weeks ago.

Josh: Sorry, what, uh, what inspired you to do it?

Leon: Um, I was looking for something to do creatively outside of work but in the same sort of industry, just something creative to work on. And I thought about maybe trying stand-up comedy because I was mates with a comedian, Justin Hamilton, and we've been talking about it. And then I caught up with Sam Kavanaugh for dinner once when he was up in Sydney, and he's like, what's your audience name?

Tommy: Fascinator Robot.

Leon: Yeah, that's been taken.

Josh: So, um, so sorry, Reese's Coin Mate, gotta get out.

Leon: And, uh, I told him I was thinking about doing comedy, but then I also was— I was talking about podcasts and just sort of occurred to me, I was like, why don't I try and do them both and just do a bit of— it was essentially I gave myself a deadline to learn stand-up comedy and perform it.

Tommy: And the show's called How Am I Funny? Am I Funny?

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: Awesome, I loved it. Have I seen— have I told you that?

Leon: No.

Tommy: Well, this is a nice—

Josh: I feel like I've texted you and said I love the show or something.

Leon: Oh, maybe you did. I got a lot of those sales calls.

Josh: You thought I was joking? It sounded like you were gonna say, "How am I funny?" How was he funny?

Tommy: Am I funny? Well, the thing is, it's the complete opposite of this podcast.

Leon: It was fully produced, scripted, you know, but the hard thing was I didn't realise that at the time, because I did it in real time, so I would learn things, but, you know, catalogue it during the week, but then put it all together in a scripted package each weekend whilst trying to still like learn comedy and plan a live stand-up show. And a few other hurdles got thrown in there in the meantime.

Josh: Like the one where there was the exact same show in New York.

Leon: There was that, but also like things like I was looking at moving, I was moving back down to Melbourne, but I couldn't talk about that publicly because it was a new contract and other people hadn't been moved yet. So I was stressing about moving my life whilst trying to do this podcast and write stand-up comedy and had a bit of a breakdown. Oh really?

Josh: What did the breakdown look like internally?

Leon: Like, is it just a panic attack, anxiety attack? Like, I— it was, you know, um, just everything was overwhelming.

Tommy: Fuck, isn't that the reality though for life when you're creating and you've come out the other side of having made it?

Leon: Yeah.

Tommy: And it did well. Yeah. And it was awesome and you did an amazing job and it's like, but it still has, that always happens. Like I've found that things that I've had the most creative success with have been like fucking torturous in some respects. Oh, absolutely. Hard and annoying.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: I could have started this podcast with Josh.

Josh: It's like this trip that I'm going on. Like I leave— Oh, here we go. I leave in a week. No, but I'm like really anxious 'cause I know that I've got this.

Tommy: It's that thing—

Leon: You don't even know where you're going. How are you anxious?

Tommy: I'd be anxious if I was in Korea, I'd be anxious.

Josh: Well, it's that thing of like I wrote on an index one thing I found that really helped me was actually write down what I need to do. You know, like you just have no sense of what it is that I actually need to do before it gets to the end. Do you feel like, how did you work out the podcast? How did you work out what you actually needed to get done?

Leon: Like storyboarding, planning. I'm a very, like, I love lists. Like I will list things I have to do even like on the weekend. Like I've got these things to do. I've got to catch up with that mate as well. Or I'm going to this thing.

Tommy: 7 Bs.

Leon: Yeah, that's it. Like I will go, great. In my producer mind, I'll go, how do I fit this all in? You know, it's with tasks and same with this podcast. I looked at how many weeks it would look like. And then I do talk about this podcast as in doing this show.

Josh: It's like I worked out your reach. I worked out and then how much I like you guys both came up with a number and I had 45 minutes.

Tommy: But were you saying, Josh, that the reliever of the anxiety is you writing out the process of doing it?

Josh: Like the process of actually writing out has helped me tremendously. Like, it's actually like, okay, I can actually place all of this stuff. You—

Leon: it actually relieves your anxiety a bit because you go, oh, it's just once I do that, that pretty much covers that thing, and then I've got 2 other things to do and it's it. Like, it— yeah, I think visualising like that is a great way to do it.

Tommy: And so you had a breakdown during the—

Leon: like a couple of, I would call mild— I've never had them before, but I assume they'd be mild panic/anxiety attacks where it was just Everything was overwhelming. I just wanted to be away from people, like, you know, just, it was overwhelming.

Josh: Where did it, where did they—

Leon: I remember it was actually Anzac Day last year, and my mates wanted me to go catch up with them, and I was like, I need to do this other work, and I need to write the podcast, and like, just them texting going, why aren't you coming out? I'm, you know, doing this.

Josh: Never happened to me in my life. Go on.

Tommy: Yeah, you're feeling the anxiety now, Josh, aren't you?

Leon: I was in at work doing extra work plus the podcast stuff, and I just went, I need to go home. My housemates were away, and I just— I was at home, and, uh, actually my ex-girlfriend at the time was like, can I come over? And I was like, you know what, I literally— I can't just face seeing anyone right now. I'm just like overwhelmed by everything. So, um, yeah, but like a few hours later, it was kind of like— I did, I just wrote it. I actually wrote it out and I went 'Okay, there's a few things I need to do, but some of them are time sensitive. I'll be fine. I can just—' Yeah, visualised it.

Josh: It seems like— do you think it's the creative field is more likely to have mental health issues? Or like, why is it? Why is it that we're all fucked?

Leon: Um, that's a very broad question to ask.

Josh: It's what we do here, asking the broad—

Leon: why are we all fucked?

Josh: Why are we all fucked?

Leon: Now just riff on it. I don't know. I think there's a lot of pressure these days. Pressure from everything. Time, work, everything.

Josh: It's like, is it external pressure or is it pressure that we create ourselves?

Leon: I think this is— I created it myself because I said, yeah, I'm gonna do this podcast. And the point of the podcast was I'd thought about doing comedy before, and I was like, I'd always get to a point and go, nah, it's too hard, I'll just do it another time. But publicly saying, in 7 weeks on this podcast you'll hear my stand-up comedy, whether it's good or bad, I'll do it. And so that set that limit of like, I have to do it.

Josh: How Tommy has one of his awesome skills is being able to capture things in the moment, capture life as they happen.

Leon: Whereas I really— ABC, mate, always be contenting.

Josh: Always be contenting. ABC. I've got the domain name allforcontent.com, which is sort of—

Tommy: Up for sale, and if you want to buy it, make your offer.

Josh: Just throwing out there, do you want it?

Leon: Is that Australian Federal Crimes?

Josh: Oh, that's .org. All 4 Content. I've got AFC.

Leon: AFC is the Australian Federal Crime. That's probably .gov.au maybe.

Josh: Yeah, no, no.

Leon: Have you got that one as well?

Josh: To be clear, I don't have the acronym. I've just got All 4 Content.

Tommy: Oh, you can't buy any acronym— you can't get acronym websites anymore. They're all taken up though.

Josh: That's not how it works.

Leon: I mean, you could have like a— I could create my own acronym.

Josh: No, but like, sorry, sorry, you could have a 20-word—

Tommy: I'll say it again, 3-letter acronym.

Josh: 3-letter websites. You can't get expensive.

Tommy: They're all They're all done, all bought.

Josh: No, but what the fuck was I just talking about?

Tommy: So I capture stuff in the moment.

Josh: Oh no, yeah. Oh yeah, capture it. So Tommy captures shit in the moment. I tried it, went to a, Bri and I went on a holiday to WA and I'm like, you know what? I'm gonna be a bit of a fucking vlogger. Recorded for like the first 2 minutes. I'm just like, this is too hard. How did you find when you were creating the podcast, all of that anxiety, the panic attack probably would have been the best bit of content you could have created.

Leon: Yeah, it was actually. I mean, I would have— it was so real. That was the thing. Like, I, I think for me, and I'm always like this when I'm producing any sort of content, I would try and— I know what I want to try and get. Like, I will, I'll go in somewhere going, yeah, I'm probably going to get something around that. I'm going to this comedy show, so I'm going to record my thoughts straight after what, what it was. And then sometimes things will pop up that you record, because I hate just recording for hours and then going, what have I got?

Josh: Yeah, well, the pop-up stuff I think is is the hard bit, right? Because it's the, 'cause that's the stuff that can add something completely different. But it's also meaning that you might not be going necessarily the same way that you intended.

Tommy: Pop-up meaning just the direction of something might change.

Josh: Yeah, just those events that Leon was talking about.

Leon: Yeah, like one of the parts of the podcast is I originally aimed for 8 weeks, 8 episodes. And I booked the gig venue in And then it wasn't until the week after, or during that week, Sam Kavanaugh, who was sort of co-producing it with me, he said, hey, I'm going to call you, record this call. And he called me and told me, you've booked the wrong date, that's a week earlier. I was like, fuck, my parents were already planning to come up, my sister was flying up, and I was like, I just— all right, I'm just gonna have to do one less episode. And yeah, I'm doing it a week earlier.

Tommy: Like, we've found the cause of the anxiety.

Josh: It's Sam. It's also Sam, every single time he's got Bad news, mate, you might wanna record this. I'm like, if this is about my nana passing away, I'm gonna be really pissed off. Mate, just press record and see what happens.

Leon: It might be good. Yeah, it might be really good. We don't have to use it.

Josh: Yeah, it might be really good. Hey Sam, how you going, mate? Nana's dead. I knew it, I knew it.

Leon: But I was recording, which is good. Play this back at the university.

Josh: What is ABC again? What is it all about?

Leon: Always Be Contenting.

Josh: Where is that from? What's that reference about?

Leon: I feel like it might be—

Josh: Rhys Maston said it. Rhys Maston said it. I've never seen Rhys Maston's. There's a bunch of my little contenters, hey?

Leon: I can't remember where that came from. I think it might have been, it could have been Dave Thorn, the comedian. Yeah. I worked with him briefly in radio and when he left, I gave him a, I made a mug. I think, yeah, he must have been saying it because I made a mug for him that said always be contenting on it. And every now and then I just get a text from him just holding up the mug saying, got a lot of content. Man, I love Thorno.

Josh: He was the one who, when I was thinking about quitting my job, was like, yeah man, just do it. Look at you now. Yeah, look at me now.

Tommy: Was he in a job at that point?

Josh: Yeah, he was at the company that I was quitting. He's just like, yeah, you'll find something else, go for it, man.

Tommy: Well, I think you learn that always be contenting when producing is like an amazing skill to have. Yeah, if you want to be a creator. Yeah, totally. Like, I think drawing all the things, you know, you're going to make this podcast. Yeah, yeah, it's like you're the talent, but you've also got the content chops, absolutely understanding of it all. Yeah. And then so you, you made this show and you— what, how did you actually feel about— because it led up to you doing stand-up for the very first time. Yep. Fuck that.

Leon: Have you done it?

Tommy: I think you'd have done it. No way.

Leon: No, it's interesting. Have you done it?

Tommy: I'll be, I'll be honest, but I could do it is what he's about to say. I haven't, but I could.

Josh: No, you were listening. He wasn't here. I never ever multitask, but I wanted to reference something on my phone, and I thought that maybe Tommy could have the conversation and the floor without me for a minute.

Tommy: I didn't even ask you anything, Leon.

Josh: Sorry, back to your phone. What was the question? I want to bring up this phone thing.

Leon: The question was, have you done stand-up? I thought you would have done stand-up.

Josh: No, I've watched stand-up. Okay. It's not the same thing. I only know Dad, Karl Barron, David Attenborough.

Leon: It's very late '90s mainstream comedy.

Josh: Yeah, well, I was going through all my DVDs. I had— Can I guess?

Leon: Did you have any more comedy DVDs? Uh, yes. Yes. Did you have Jim Owen?

Josh: No, but Mum and Dad did, but then Mum—

Leon: Scared Wee Little Guys? Never had Scared Wee Little Guys. Umbilical Brothers?

Josh: No. And Arj Barker? Yes. Yeah, got it. Arj Barker, my favourite line, I'm never going to forget it, was It was a— do the accent. No, I can't do the accent. Was he Canadian? Is he Canadian?

Leon: He is, yes, still with us.

Josh: Still with us until Sam gives us the call. He said, mate, got news on Arj, might want to record this. Sam Blab is getting so many shouts to shout out.

Tommy: Sam, we need to get you on the show.

Josh: We need to get him on.

Leon: He wouldn't do this.

Tommy: I've asked Josh before, does he think he's funny? He says, of course I do. Yeah, yeah, he thinks he's funny. No, but the way you talk to me then, you're like, okay, I'm surprised you haven't done stand-up.

Leon: Oh, you're just very confident. You're very confident. I feel like you're all just because you're funny.

Josh: Yeah, not both. No, I don't think Tommy's that funny.

Tommy: Well, no, I don't, I don't say I don't feel like I'm funny. I have fun, and you and I have had heaps of fun. We laugh heaps when we were together. Yeah, I didn't think that you, that would, I didn't know that that was somewhere where you were.

Leon: I've always, I don't think I always want to do it. I don't think I I just, I'm a massive comedy nerd, big comedy fan, whether it be stand-up, yeah, movies, radio, TV, all that sort of stuff. But I'd always just been really intrigued about it, and I'd seen enough stand-up comedy. I used to go to Melbourne Comedy Festival just all the time and go to heaps of shows when I was growing up. Yeah, I started to get to the point like, oh, this is— I kind of understand how this works. I just never had the guts to apply it to actually doing it.

Tommy: And how did you feel when you actually Did the stand-up.

Leon: I was so relieved afterwards. Like it was a blur up there, but like it was this weird thing where, yeah, it was, I remember that I said, oh, we've got a light in the back of the room. 'Cause I never knew this, that when you're on stage, you've got 5 or 7 minutes, whatever they give you a time. And usually they flash a light in the background when you've got 2 minutes and then like flash it again when you've got 1 minute.

Josh: I've heard a torch, like some on the real sort of smaller open mics, they have like a torch. It's like LED. The ones that you get from the surf though?

Leon: So yeah. Yeah, there's different types, those sort of things. But like, I didn't even, I couldn't even focus on anything. I was just blindly getting it all out.

Josh: And so how long did you, how long was the set for?

Leon: Is that what it's called, a set? Yeah, about 6 minutes, 7 minutes.

Josh: That's not bad. I've only got one bit that I think is good enough for a stand-up thing because I wrote down in case I one day I'm interesting enough to have a memoir. I've got a few ideas, but I'll tell you one very quick storey and then you can laugh if it's funny. No, I bought a domain name the other day.

Leon: Are you adding the Seinfeld theme in post?

Josh: Or you— People have said that when anything that I— and I think this happens across the board— anything that is funny, Seinfeld's probably like come up with. Like any observational shit, he's basically done it all. But this involves domain names, so maybe not. Uh, internet. No, I'm aware of that, yeah. Uh, no, I, um, I bought the domain name, uh, offthegrid.com. I actually did. Yeah, no, that's— Actually, it's not— you know what, it's only funny within the context of— Oh, that was the joke, sorry.

Leon: I forgot that you were actually trying to do some stand-up.

Josh: So the joke is, the joke is I bought off the grid and I was like, couldn't believe it. Yeah. And this is a true story. This is what's annoying, 'cause it's a true storey and it's really funny because it's true, but it might not be funny if it was just a fake story. No, but I bought offthegrid.com. My heart was beating. I thought it was a really great domain name. And Bree's looking at me like, "Oh, I don't know if this is gonna translate." So supportive. Improv during the set. I got the email that it was all confirmed and I'd purchased it and I'd bought offthegird.com. See, it doesn't have the same effect.

Tommy: Depends on where you're doing. Domain name conference.

Leon: I've gotta say, yeah, yeah, it's good specific niche gear.

Josh: I told Dr. Jason Fox, who we've had on, told him on the weekend in the car, it got some serious belly laughs.

Tommy: I mean, you're in a car, you have to. Yeah, there's the awkward response.

Josh: I was driving. He was scared. It's all the delivery. So maybe that was part of it.

Tommy: So do you think you're funny? I guess the—

Leon: I reckon, yeah, I think I can do it. It was—

Josh: and you wasted our time with the whole podcast.

Leon: Spoiler alert. I think it takes a massive skill, but a lot of practice. I could probably do it a bit more. I haven't done it since. I keep saying I'm going to, but I just need— I probably need another podcast to do it. Yeah. Am I still funny?

Tommy: I mean, what I'm getting out of this is I'm feeling a bit more confident that maybe I could do stand-up. I think most people can, because maybe you don't need to essentially think that you're a funny person.

Leon: The thing that really turned turned the corner for me was someone told me, a comedian told me that it's just, you know when you go to a pub and you're talking to your mates and you've got, nah.

Tommy: Yeah, he's excluding you from the conversation. We're talking to your parents.

Josh: He's having a go at me for a little bit.

Leon: You've probably got classic storeys of things that happened to you. And you tell that storey and then when you meet new people, they go, "Tell them that story." And you tell that story, but you remember the last time when you told it, you got a few reactions. And you go, yeah, there was a few parts I told that told that storey really well. You remember those, the way to tell that story, or you go, oh, maybe that was a bit flat there. It's just telling that story. If you tell those storeys enough, you know the points where the laughs are gonna be. It's just a matter of broadening that to an audience. And being aware of it too.

Josh: 'Cause you can have one funny joke, but you can't, if we've learned anything from Off the Gurd, you can't build a career off it.

Leon: Comedian, there's a comedian, Nat Harris. She told me—

Tommy: another fellow street teamer. She's not a street teamer.

Josh: She should get her on, but Tommy's been mentioning her as well. She's a legend.

Leon: She told me when you're getting up there, don't stress about being funny, just be interesting. Like, you want to get their attention, get— engage them. And if you're having— if they're sort of comfortable and listening to you and enjoying it, they'll naturally just laugh or enjoy it as well.

Tommy: Yeah, you sounded like you were having a good time and you heckled someone in the crowd or something, didn't you?

Leon: Or you were drinking a beer Oh no, yeah, I got such dry mouth halfway through. I just said, guys, I've got really bad dry mouth. If you could all just round of applause for a second while I take a drink, just to pad that time. Because I did not want— I just— and that was spur of the moment thing. And I think it was Will Anderson or Justin Hamilton later on said that was the cockiest thing I've ever seen. I genuinely couldn't talk and I didn't want to watch people just watch me drink.

Josh: No, I think it's constant failing.

Tommy: Like, there's such an opportunity to fail in those moments. Totally. And so I— and like shamefully fail.

Leon: Like when you get off that stage, you're there in the room still. There's no like— like these small comedy rooms, there's no backstage. It's like you walk up from the crowd and then you get off and you walk it back out through the crowd.

Josh: I think that that would be the— my problem would be going into a shtick. Like going into a place where it's— There's that word again. I love shtick. Yeah. But it's that whole, um, trying to protect yourself by playing some sort of character? Were you, did you feel like you were playing a character?

Leon: Yeah, that's, again, I was lucky with the podcast. All these comedians give me advice just to do not put on a character unless that's what you're really trying to do, a character. 'Cause then if you are, how would you react as that character? You have to think about all these things. How you react as that character? How would that character say this? Whereas I was, yeah, be yourself unless you're going, I'm doing it like a, you know, Chris Lilley style character.

Josh: It almost has the stench of, A stench is such a bad word. A stench of a rebrand. I've recently gone through a rebrand. Yeah. Have you noticed?

Leon: I like the glasses. Thanks. Good job, mate.

Josh: The hair isn't fully rebranded at the moment because I only paid $15 at Just Cuts on Elizabeth Street.

Leon: Go on. Is that another sponsor you've got on board? Exactly, Just Cuts. $15. Grant Daniels is the face of them, isn't he? Is he? I think he is.

Josh: Maybe his Best Cuts. No, he's—

Leon: Wait, here, is it two different? Is it Just Cuts?

Josh: There's Just Cuts, Best Cuts, and there's another Cuts. I can't remember that Cuts. But no, I did see the— wasn't it Grant? I saw Grant Denyer. Best Cuts. I think it may have been Best Cuts. It was in Doncaster.

Tommy: Where were you going with the rebranding?

Josh: Sorry, go on, rebranding. No, in regards to doing the whole comedian thing, did you feel like that was an active— was that a go at a rebrand? Was there, okay, I'm gonna become potentially— I don't think I don't want to become a comedian.

Leon: I think it's something I still write down comedy now, notes, but I just don't perform it. I just, it's quite therapeutic to write out these things. One day I might, I don't know, but like you essentially write a diary.

Josh: It's really funny though. Leon's Funny Diary.

Tommy: When we first met Leon, it was probably the time when I wanted to be a a presenter, but I know what you mean. It's like, at what point do you come out and go, I'm a presenter, or I want to be a presenter? Are you saying that's like that you're leading with this thing that you're putting out to the world? I'm going to be—

Josh: well, you had yourself as a digital, uh, Tommy had on his Twitter bio digital personality. That was years later.

Tommy: Huh? That was years later that I changed that. I— that wasn't—

Josh: but you only changed it like a few weeks ago.

Tommy: No, but I think when the time I'm talking about, as in the rebrand, I Well, you have different versions of rebrand.

Josh: So I had my rebrand and then I'm like, you know what, I haven't, if I'm gonna do the hair, I can't have the neck beard. You can't half-ass it. That's your rebrand. You can't half-ass a rebrand. And so you learn these things where it's like, oh, this thing that I actually did only works on the previous version.

Leon: I didn't think it was a rebrand for me. It was more like a, it's kind of like a hobby, not a hobby, like an extreme sport. It was like trying skydiving.

Josh: Well, you had one of the biggest rebrands. You texted me a few. Yeah, I was wondering why you were tiptoeing around that. No, I'm not tiptoeing around it. I just wanted a seamless fucking— what's that called? Segway. And Tommy just said, you know, you're coming out and then I'm like, here we go.

Leon: Fuck.

Josh: Should I stuff him there? Yeah. So I was texting later on.

Leon: Is all that chat going to be cut just to get to this part?

Josh: Yeah, exactly. The real meat on the bones. It's all going to this. No, but I remember— We'll leave the Reese Masterton bit in. That was a big part of— We weren't planning on— what's going on, Bri? Do you need to go? No, no one— does anyone want to try?

Tommy: Don't talk for me, I'd love a chai. We're just having, uh, yeah, I'd love a chai latte. I'll have a chai. We'll have a couple of chai lattes. I'll take a soy chai latte, thanks Bri.

Josh: Uh, can I have a flat white maybe please? They do have almond milk now, you can pay on full. This way you could have played the song. Yeah, this was— no, I told Bri as soon as I said get awkward with the coming out bit, ask for coffees, ask for chai. No, Bree said, "Oh, I'll get him a coffee." I said, "No, he's bi, babe. Get him a chai. He needs a chai." So I got a text from Leon basically, you were having drinks for your birthday and there was clearly the point where you're like, "Oh fuck, Josh is gonna rock up to my birthday drinks. I'm gonna have a boyfriend." And so—

Leon: That's gone through my mind so many times with so many different people recently.

Josh: It's like, oh, that's just, I just don't want Josh to be like, "Oh, like, could you?" I could just imagine Leon's mind.

Tommy: Two awkward things. Josh as well. Yeah, yeah. And drinks.

Josh: Well, the biggest compliment I got was he thought that I was gonna rock up to the drinks. No, so Leon was at the gym basically. And he was like, "Hey mate, like, oh yeah, can we have a phone chat?" Basically. And then you said, "It's taken me a while to work it out, but I'm bi." And then you've gone through 'Cause I'd said, you said you had some news. I said, "Ah, you were gonna be a dad." That's exactly what my mom said. You said, so not a father. What was it like? What's that whole process been like?

Leon: It's been really weird, but like fine.

Tommy: It's not another podcast, is it?

Josh: Yeah. This is all.

Leon: Am I straight? I'll give you a spoiler alert. No, it's been weird. It's like, it's just such a weird thing. It was a long time coming. Like, I dabbled when I was younger.

Josh: Long Time Coming is a great title for your memoir.

Leon: Long Time Coming is good, yeah. I dabbled when I was younger and just didn't really like it. And I also think maybe that was just like part of the growing up in the suburbs and everyone, not many people, I didn't know anyone really that was gay or bi or anything like that.

Tommy: In Lilydale?

Leon: In Lilydale, out in the burbs. And then it always sort of like, I'd had girlfriends and attracted to girls and I'd see attraction to guys but never really act on it. And then there'd been times when I had, and then it wasn't until the same-sex marriage vote stuff was coming through and everyone was sort of— That's the bandwagon jumping if I've ever seen it. I thought this seems in. I tried to see. Yeah, exactly. But then like, I just see. Seeing people I grew up with in suburbs posting, "I'm voting yes," and stuff on their social media. I was like, "Oh, I actually think like they're sort of quite accepting and stuff." And I'd mentioned to a few of my close friends that I'd hooked up with dudes. And then I remember speaking to one of my friends who was bi. She had been dating a chick for quite a while and then she recently went back to a guy and she realised she thought she was a lesbian and then she went, "Oh, I think I'm—" you know, my sexuality is quite fluid and I'm with a guy now. And I'd never really thought about that and went, maybe that's what I am. And then the big day came where I changed my Tinder to guys and girls and just doubled all my options.

Josh: Is that how it works? Is that how it works? Would you, when it comes to Tinder and showing you males and females, is it sort of a 50/50?

Leon: Do they go one for one? Uh, no, I think, I don't know actually how that works.

Josh: I mean, it's a good question. It's a very good question.

Leon: Or could you be like, I think it It just depends on how many people there are on. It doesn't go one guy, one girl. It's just random, I assume.

Tommy: Because the thing with— that's an interesting question. How are they doing the ratio?

Josh: I wonder more, like, I'm just curious about, like, from a mind point of view, how, like, does sometimes— like, one question I feel like people, a lot of people would sort of like, ah, you're bi, or is it just this transition to being gay?

Leon: It is actually sometimes I'd thought shit, it would be so much easier if I was just gay. Because it still is that confusing thing of like— so I'm, I've been dating a guy for like 8 months now, I think it is, and he's gay and he's only just come out as well. Yeah. And so that we kind of bonded over that sort of thing. But there was a few times where he's like, are you just not— are you sure you're not gay? And I'm like, well, I don't know, like right now I am because I've got a boyfriend. But yeah, yeah, like I'm still very attracted to girls and I've had relationships with girls in the past.

Tommy: And I mean, I'm feeling his insecurities because when you're with a girl who is a straight girl, she might look at other guys, but now there's the other 50% of the population. Yeah.

Leon: So it's like, I can look at both. You got the—

Josh: who are you looking at?

Tommy: You can't look anywhere.

Josh: Does it feel like a bit of a switch? Like, how does it work? Like, using the Tinder example, if we're doing a bit of user experience testing, would I— if I was working for Tinder, would you suggest that I 'Guy and girl, switch between it,' or would you like a selection where tonight I feel like dating?

Leon: Um, I don't know, for me it doesn't really feel like— it's just person to person, I think.

Josh: Yeah, like, that's probably personality, you know, like, that's such a big part of it too, right? Do I actually like this?

Leon: That's exactly right. Yeah, it's a—

Tommy: it— I think the complexity, like you said, is like people want to know, want to put you— and I think it's I think it's okay that people want to put you in a place where they understand you. Yeah. And so I guess that's gay or straight or—

Leon: That's it. I think a lot of people don't understand. That's it. Well, what do you mean? What do you mean?

Josh: Like, you know, I feel like— Greedy. You're being greedy.

Leon: I've got a lot of that. But then, yeah, I don't know. It's a hard one to— especially with like— so I— telling my parents was kind of weird because I was like, fuck, do I have to explain what bi is to them? Do they know what that is? Yeah.

Josh: And they were like, yeah, we do it at Big W. No, not lay-by, Mum. I haven't lay-bied.

Leon: And what was their response? Um, it was great. They were both really supportive. Dad more so. Like, Dad, I thought Dad would be— because Dad's like pretty blokey, into his cars, you know. We don't talk— like, we talk, we catch up when we catch up. He never calls me and we chat or anything like Mum and I do. But, um, yeah, like, he was, he was great. Mum was great as well. But the next day Dad called me and I was like, oh no, what's What's the day calling before someone died? Yeah, I was like, he's just like, Sam Cabs on the line, record this. It's like, just checking in how you are after the news. And I'm like, yeah, I'm great, thank you. But like, yeah, really great. My sister, I actually, I, um, I got to, I went to a phase where I was starting to feel comfortable with friends, and I would, I'd be drunk, I'd be drunk and I'd go, who can I text and just tell? Just because then I wake up the next morning and go, oh, that's done, it's easy. Like, yeah, just because the inhibitions are gone, I'm You know, it's the ultimate rebrand. I end up tweeting the day that the— is in December— the day that the, um, the legislation passed. I was at a gig that night and I was a bit drunk and I thought, fuck it, I'm just going to tweet it because I know a lot of my friends aren't on Twitter, like my close friends. Yeah. And it was just a good way to just do it. And then I got like so much people retweeting and tweeting because that day was full of support for everyone. And then I think my sister's friend followed me on Twitter and told my sister. My sister called me and was like, is there something you want to tell me? And I was like, yeah, I suppose so.

Josh: Yeah, I clearly don't cheque Twitter because you didn't tell me until like January or something.

Leon: And that's why it's that hard thing where— and now I'm still in that phase where there's a lot of people I haven't caught up with for a while, and I— and if I'm bringing my boyfriend Ian along, like, I just hate doing that introduction straight away. This is my boyfriend, by the way.

Tommy: Yeah, the feelings there. I mean, for for me, I haven't seen you in a while. Yeah. And did you think that I would know? Not that— I mean, it's your news. It's not like some fucking—

Leon: oh, maybe, because I remember telling Sam Kavanaugh. That was a great experience. But like, I just assumed— I was like, it was just really funny. We're again, I was drunk. Yeah. And we were driving back from a gig and there's a few of us in the car and two of them got out and I was like, I'm gonna go to a bar and meet someone else. And I was going to meet the guy was seeing. Yeah. And he goes, who are you meeting? And I was like, I'm going to tell you now, I suppose. And we're in an Uber, and I felt so sorry for this Uber driver for this moment happening. Great. I was, uh, in the back and Sam was in the front, and I was like, well, um, I'm bi. And he's like, what? And we're both a bit drunk. And I was like, yeah, I've started trying to see dudes as well. And he was like, hang on a minute, ask the Uber driver to pull over so we can get in the back to have a proper conversation. This poor Uber driver But yeah, I assumed I'd told enough people that would all filter back and then—

Tommy: Yeah, and I guess my question in asking that was, are you thinking when you are seeing someone like me, other than you probably knew you would talk about it, but it's like, I wonder if they know and do I have to tell them?

Josh: Yeah, there is a bit of that sometimes.

Leon: It is, there is an idea around that. Yeah, sometimes.

Josh: Do you reckon the panic attacks were at all connected to this, like trying to discover what was going on in your head? Or—

Leon: No, I don't think at that time I was kind of—

Tommy: Give the bloke a break, he's fucking about to do stand-up comedy.

Leon: No, I actually already thought about that, um, because I had a girlfriend at the time and we actually— I hadn't spoken about it with my girlfriend, um, but that wasn't really playing on my mind because that was the stress for me was that I was moving away and I just was not sure if long distance would work.

Josh: Um, yeah. What— so it sounds like alcohol has played a part in helping you deal with shit in the sense of like, oh, you know, like I get it.

Leon: It kind of has, which is like, I'm not promoting it, but it's known as a social lubricant. Absolutely. And the lubby, right?

Josh: There we go. Uh, I'm just trying to think of the headlines. This is going to be— this is going to be great. I was thinking like, we can do you a service. This can be like, if we can get this out far and wide enough, then you're very cocky that a lot of people are listening to this.

Leon: No, I don't think that they will, A lot of people might be hearing it for the first time.

Josh: I'm gonna call Leon Schoegren is now bi as the headline. Are you cool with that? Yeah, sure. Actually, I feel like bi's too far in the headline, so we have to go bisexual Leon? Question mark? It's putting it, it's putting this, not burying the lead, but looking for the clickbait option.

Tommy: They have to sit through a lot of shit to get to this, don't they?

Josh: Exactly. They're like, Rhys Maston? Put it in the show notes. Yeah, it's all ABC. ABC, all—

Tommy: always be contenting. Are you thinking that people have a lot of questions for you?

Leon: Like, is that something that goes through you sometimes? I think with bi as well, I feel like it's a, you know, I feel like being homosexual for a while was like a lot of people had questions, and now it's very common.

Tommy: Well, there's been a lot more thrown into the mix. I had a 16-year-old work experience kid in here for a couple of months, and she was telling me about some of her friends. Yeah, pansexual.

Leon: I have some of those questions about some of those things. I don't— I'm not like— and that's the thing, like, I'm not into that culture at all really either, is like, I don't— I'm not really across all that. Maybe I should be, but I don't think you have to be.

Josh: I don't know if that's how it works. I better go study. You can even go to bloody uni for this, guys. Did you hear that? Leon just fucking jumped into it without going to uni. Got a scholarship. Exactly. No, you got a doctorate. Like, what's the— you got the, uh, honorary doctorate degree. Yeah, exactly.

Tommy: Yeah, fuck, if it doesn't make it more confusing with all these new labels. I mean, feeling what you are feeling is—

Leon: It's confusing as hell. And I've like, it's weird to think maybe this could have been me from early on since I was like, I reckon I was 19 or 20. And I think, yeah, maybe that's just, I don't know. Well, here I am now.

Josh: And so what's the, how have you reconciled it all from back in sort of December when you were sort of going out hard versus now? Coming out hard.

Leon: Yeah, what do you mean coming out?

Josh: Going out hard. Oh, do I say going out? I meant coming out. Coming out hard.

Tommy: I thought you just meant he was out drinking a lot.

Josh: Yeah, he was doing that. Thank you, Brazer, for the, uh, the chais and the flat white. I'm always cautious. I don't like soy milk, so I'm always— the most important part. Have you got any questions? Yeah, so Leon's by, if you missed that bit, if you missed it, uh, and Rhys Maston still, uh, Leon nearly spat his coffee out then. Um, have a sip.

Leon: Ah, while you're looking at me.

Josh: Uh, oh, thank you, Brisa. Um, oh yeah, no, so when, from December to now, you've had the time to sort of reflect and maybe get to a slight amount of normality in regards to, okay, what's the difference? What does it feel like?

Leon: It's a good question. I don't know. Just, yeah, I think maybe is that less of that anxiety of, fuck, have I seen this person in a while? Do they know? Should I tell them? Because for me, I don't want to have any of that social awkwardness of that. For that example, for you turning up to a drinks and me introducing my boyfriend and you going, oh, um, I wonder what I would have done. But I also, it's more so I don't want to make other people feel awkward. Yeah, because I think because you're pretty self-deprecating, that's it.

Josh: Yeah, you're a pretty jokey guy, so it's like, I feel like in that moment I probably, I would have—

Leon: the funny thing is that over text it was like a lot of people didn't believe me over text. I was just—

Josh: no, but I thought it was good. Like, I think over text, over phone, or even just like you and I having a conversation at a party, it would be a hard one because I would fear— I think I would get hives. I feel like I get like anxious hives. I feel like in that moment I'd get hot because I'm like, I don't know, like I want to be I don't give a fuck and I'm like supportive and I don't mind, but am I like, is there some sort of joke that's going on that I'm not, that you know what I mean?

Leon: It's an awkward, it's yeah, it's so many, you don't want to offend people and it's just a really awkward one. Any weird ones? So I was just thinking then, so I started, so my boyfriend Ian is from Scotland. He moved here over a year ago and he's the same. Had— he's gay, but he had not come out. He came out to like one or two people, and then when he was over here, he sort of went to that same phase of just going, yeah, I'm going to start telling a few people.

Josh: Good for a rebrand when you go overseas.

Leon: That's it, you know, starting a new, new country. And, um, yeah, so we met on Tinder and we went on a few dates.

Josh: What was your Tinder bio? Do you, do you feel the need when you're on Tinder to say, hey, I did?

Leon: I think it was, it was, yeah. Uh, nearly by, still early days.

Josh: Had you connected with anyone you knew that would have known, or had you already told people at this time?

Leon: Um, no, I hadn't told many people, and that was for me another step of like, well, if they see me and they're looking for guys, uh, sure, they would probably either understand or, you know, reach out and chat or whatever. Um, but so we connected. I still remember our first date. We were both so paranoid. Me just specifically, I was just like all right, so if we bump into anyone we know, we're mates we met at Glastonbury last year, the music festival. No, we both sort of agreed on like a cover story. It was so weird.

Tommy: You had each other's backs. Yeah, yeah, that's always the start of a good relationship, having each other's back.

Leon: Absolutely. And then, um, uh, and then I think— so we dated for a little bit, and then it was kind of weird because a few people I knew knew, otherwise we were just sort of like, you know, mates hanging out. And then it was his birthday and he had a few mates from Scotland and England, um, because he's a doctor, so a lot of the doctors that are over here went. He invited me to his birthday dinner, so it was like 6 of us and it was 6, like 5 of his mates and me, just a mate he met at Glastonbury last year. And they had no idea that like, um, well, the reality is sitting there and he's— well, that's the thing, it was a perfect cover story.

Tommy: It was a good cover.

Leon: It was a great cover storey because That's how we connected. His photo was him at Glastonbury, the music festival. And yeah, so we're sitting there at this dinner and it was him, his best friend who he told, his housemate, and then like 4 or 5 other mates. And they had no idea. And I was just some mate that I met at Glastonbury and then happens to be in Melbourne where he moved.

Josh: How did you feel?

Leon: That was really quite awkward. That was like— 'Cause you were like— Covering all my— I was a bit more okay with it at that time, and he was still— he hadn't told them. And so I was more for his sake just being careful of what I was saying and covering my backstory and all that sort of stuff.

Josh: I mean, what could you have said? It's like, you know, when we fucked the other— oh shit, yeah, you know, I did it, I said it. What are some of it? Like, what is the actual internal monologue? Like, what are the things that you— we wouldn't just think of that you're actually thinking about that you can't necessarily say?

Leon: What, this is now or at that point when I wasn't telling people?

Josh: At that point. You're at the dinner, there's 6 of you and you're Leon the mate. 'Cause in some regards it's like that whole thing of like, don't overthink it, you're just a mate. But clearly there's gonna be that thing of like, well, if I say this, is that gonna sound too intimate or what is the reality?

Leon: It's all those little things. I can't think of a specific, but it's all those like, like, why are we still mates? Why are we hanging out in Melbourne still? Um, all that sort of stuff.

Tommy: We've, um, talked a bit about a movement around radical honesty. Have you heard of this? So it's like there's these groups that get together in a circle and they just throw out these, you know, uh, things they've been hiding or keeping behind. I hate Josh. And they one-up each other.

Josh: Nothing radical.

Tommy: But it's— there is something liberating about telling your truth or being honest. Yeah. Did you find— and I guess for anyone who's going through something where they haven't talked about it, was there like a progression of power or a feeling inside?

Leon: I think it is that, and I assume it's with a lot of people when they come out, like it's relief. I still, I feel like, you know, a lot of people come out and they, here's a Facebook post and like it's just bang, a lot of people, you know, at once get that sort of thing. It felt for me, it was just scatters of things here and there. Like my closest friends, I told a year ago that I, you know.

Josh: More sort of micro content. You're going for sort of the micro content strategy.

Leon: Yeah, I don't want a big spike. I just want a good long storey arc.

Josh: Yeah, and then you can do a big sort of, yeah, ABC do a big. But I actually said to you in the, one of the first things I wrote back was if I could have your, the coming out exclusive. Did you really? Yeah, I literally, I called you. I didn't even remember this. I did. You've got it, fuck, damn it.

Leon: Didn't even talk money.

Josh: Exactly, it's amazing. Make shiref, chocolate frog. That's the best. He said, I said congrats, that's so exciting you've found someone. Who's your bf? I was going to ask if I can have the exclusive coming out video on my channel. Oh, that was my YouTube when that was a thing. Um, the exclusive coming out video on my channel as I do great YouTube on YouTube. I don't have a YouTube channel.

Leon: I think they're saturated by that now. I think Yeah, it would have to be, uh, if I go back in and just go, no, I'm straight again. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Tommy: You know what I'm hearing though is he messages you because imagine what your response to him on text message, imagine if you found out in the moment at a pub when people are drinking. Absolutely. How weird would he go?

Josh: I would be pretty weird. But I think the thing is like there's a, um, my point, like that reaction is exactly what I'd say, like that is actually the reaction. It's like It's that thing, right, where you can be like, oh, you can get all tiptoe, like get all weird. Yeah. And I'm like, actually, like, how am I actually— like, what am I— this is Leon.

Leon: Leon hasn't changed. Like, yeah. And that's the thing for me. I've not had— I don't think I've had any negative— I don't think I've had any negatives or anything that's felt a bit weird. Yeah. Which is so— it's weird to think that's the whole thing stopping people doing it. It's like, people are going to think of you differently. I think it's also— I still think they do a bit, but I also go 'Ah, but I don't think I've changed much.' But it's also not knowing like how to communicate it or what it even means too. Well, that's it. It's like you never even thought about that sort of idea. I was like, it's for me, it was always like I was probably just one or the other because a lot of people do think, 'Oh no, it's just you're just saying bi because you're not ready to admit you're gay.' And I was like, 'I would happily admit that if I was. I just, I don't, I don't think I feel 100% towards one gender.' I wonder if it's the same in a straight heterosexual relationship.

Tommy: Is that what you said? Fuck, I'm not across it. A straight relationship. Straight relationship, yeah. Straight relationship. When it's like, are we official or not official? I wonder if there's a feeling from your boyfriend that's like, I need you to say you're gay so that we can—

Josh: Well, he's bi anyway, first of all. No, no, but I know what I'm saying.

Tommy: Your boyfriend saying, no, I need you to say you're gay.

Leon: So I can take that step across and then—

Tommy: You're leaving all these chicks on the table out there. There. Yeah.

Leon: And all that, come on, not that. Don't all of them. Sorry, I was gonna call them. Um, yeah, no, no, and we spoke about that and he's fine, but like, it's, you know, I think a lot of people would be an issue. Like, it would, like, as you said, make your mind up. Like, well, I have. I've chosen you as a person, not—

Tommy: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Leon: I mean, fuck it, in 10 years' time, he's a doctor, a Scottish doctor. I've won.

Tommy: That's a jackpot when you said that. Shit. 10 years' time, 15 years' time, this, like, these semantics around these things won't even exist anymore, right?

Leon: They're disappearing, so. It's fucking awesome, dude.

Josh: Do you look back at the how you've lived your life previously and how do you sort of reconcile that? What does that feel like?

Leon: It doesn't feel any different. Like, I don't think me If I'd come out as bi earlier, I don't think I'd be in any different life.

Josh: Do you think that you— I feel like there's some people who I've met who have come out later in life and they've almost been sort of the one to say, oh geez, that's a bit gay, or they play up sort of the antagonist to homosexuality. Yeah. Do you, do you, do you think that there was any of that, that you were like a desire to go into bro-ish culture or anything like that, or try and be more like something else. Well, like a lad. Yeah, I think so.

Leon: I've always been pretty true to myself and I don't really adjust to make it any different. I just— it's just a different label now, I suppose.

Tommy: I mean, there's no thought. This is a thing, right? It's like, for me, it's like I've never once thought anything about your sexuality or your sexuality. Yeah. And I think to people that, you know, When you're straight, they're not thinking about it. When something comes up, then people think about it. Totally. It is a bizarre— and that's just culturally from growing up. Like, I remember using gay a lot when I was a kid. I'm sure you fucking did too. Oh yeah, probably did. Yeah. And it's only because—

Josh: hey, Leon's like, probably did. Whoa, bro.

Tommy: Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. We've all said it.

Josh: We've all done it. We've all said it. We've all done it. Yeah.

Tommy: I remember being in a— I was 16 and I was getting a lift back from a party in Cobourg from a friend of mine's dad, and there was 3 of us in the car and her dad was driving. And if you've ever heard a gay man, like, you know, the— I guess how someone would put on a gay person's voice. Yeah, not that's doing a stereotype, stereotypical, offensively stereotypical voice, offensively stereotypical gay voice. That was him. And I knew his ex-wife because they weren't together. Yep. 'And he's gay?' And I said to her— and I was 16 and I was probably fucking a bit rude— I said to her, 'Hang on, so you're telling me you never thought he was gay?' And she said to me, 'No, he was from Europe.

Josh: I just thought he had an accent.' That's what she said to me.

Tommy: And I look back on that, it's like, that's offensive to two different things there now. Exactly. Yeah, I know, that's such a young kid being offensive to this lady, but It was quite a funny answer.

Josh: That's all you have to say when you're introducing your boyfriend now. He's just from Europe. It's the, the perfect cover story. Well, I'm off to Europe. Nothing in that. Nothing in that, everyone.

Tommy: Can we, can we finish, um, a bit off this topic? The time that you interviewed a guy, I think it was a guy or a girl. Yeah, because you had another podcast.

Leon: I had another podcast, you know, and this is my favourite podcast. I had a podcast that was, um, so successful before— way before podcasts— would have been 9 years ago. And we had a huge following. It was called The Boardroom.

Tommy: The Boardroom with Jackie, Bron, Steph.

Josh: Yeah, nothing's fucking changed, using the SEA, all the studios and stuff. Yeah, yeah, we're all employees of the company.

Leon: Yeah, perfect. And, um, it was essentially once a week we'd all come with one topic, and usually it would be something that's a bit, you know, controversial or just a bit filthy, and there'd be absolutely no, no, um, no limits. And we did the podcast for a while, and it got to the point where literally we had a client get on board. Sexyland was paying us to give out— it was when Fifty Shades of Grey was first popular— to give out, um, like little mini dominatrix kits to listeners who would write us the filthiest, um, Erotica, man. And there was one— there was one episode which—

Josh: the— oh, the dolphin. This—

Leon: this is again back to when we, uh—

Josh: I know I set it up, but you could see me get really— but I got really excited because I was like, I remember this is—

Leon: I'm not sure how much you— you'll be editing of the podcast, but none of it. None of it. Zero. Okay, so this goes back to when I loved chasing guests, going, I'm going to track down this person and get them on the show. Um, I'd read this weird clickbaity article about a guy that released a book, and I thought— I read the article and thought, this can't be real. But I found his name and thought, I'm gonna do some searching and see if I can get him on the show. Um, did he work in a canteen with Zane's mum? His name is Malcolm J. Brenner. Yeah, and he released an ebook called, um, Wet Goddess: Recollections of a Dolphin Lover. And what is that? This man had a 6-month sexual relationship with a dolphin at SeaWorld in San Diego in the '80s. Unbelievable. The author did? The author did, yes. So it was his retelling of that one summer. Wow. No one's optioned it for a film yet, which is weird. But it's, yeah, it's pretty remarkable. He was so blasé about how he spoke about it in detail. Like, and I, we were asking questions that were, it's like, is it got anything to do with the blowhole or? Well, that's just hilarious.

Tommy: So one of the things that stood out for me, this is 9 years ago or 8 years ago that I listened to it, was when he said you can't make a 200 or 300-pound creature have sex with you. And I was like, that's actually a fucking good point, because it was all around the dolphin wanted to have sex with you.

Leon: Hashtag rape culture. Yeah, I've just got a photo of him up for you. Holy moly, how— we'll put a link to this. Malcolm J. Brenner.

Tommy: Can we put a link to your podcast? Is the podcast still out? No.

Leon: Well, here's the other thing is a boss heard that from the company and said, look, the podcast, not that interview, there's some stuff on there that was a bit, you know, a little filthy. And, you know, um, and he said, look, I— it's very funny, I love you doing something creative.

Tommy: Yeah, yeah, start with a positive, start with a positive.

Leon: But if someone took that and, you know, print it in black and white out of context, it could be pretty offensive. So we may have to stop it.

Josh: That's so sad. So how many episodes did you do?

Leon: I reckon about 30-something, 40-something.

Josh: How do you feel looking back?

Leon: I still listen to them every now and then and they're fucking funny. Yeah. One day I will just release them for the sake of releasing them again.

Josh: Wait, so you took them all down?

Leon: We had to take them all down. Yeah.

Tommy: Well, you might lose your job soon after this interview.

Leon: Exactly. I will sell those episodes back.

Josh: Perfect. I'm still spewing that there wasn't a pay freeze at all and I was just Yeah, he's getting paid shit money. That's all right, I'll ask them when I'm back there. Yeah, maybe they could sort of do something. Yeah, do a, um, he's a Jimmy Grant guy, but it was a good gear. What? Um, the guy who had to pay all the— who's the George? No, not George. I'm doing this with my head. George Columbaris. Yeah, there was a lot of money back because he was accused of underpaying. Yeah, allegedly.

Tommy: Allegedly.

Leon: If anything, you may have been overpaid, so you must pay them back.

Tommy: Yeah, imagine if that's how it went.

Leon: No, Josh, we looked into it. You're You actually owe us money.

Josh: We looked at the CCTV footage, we realised you chatting with Jack Postle wasn't a production meeting. I actually remember that. I remember my boss Michael Eva coming in and saying, Josh, you have been sitting in that room with Jack for 4 hours. And I said, we're talking about content.

Tommy: Was that the day you were fired?

Josh: I quit, I quit guys. Just before they fired you. Get in before they do. Yeah, absolutely. It's the Daily Talk Show, everyone. You can send your emails to hi@thedailytalkshow.com. And the style of the show is that people aren't just guests, they're friends of the show. So we will, if Leon will come back, I guess you'll have a lot of time after the firing.

Leon: Plenty of time. Just around the corner. I'm happy to go on anytime.

Josh: Yeah, maybe we could get the dolphin guy on again and say, hey, can we do it?

Tommy: I'd love to have him on. Do you know what we should do?

Josh: We should try and have him on again, but say, look, it's a G-rated show. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Leon: See what he can—

Tommy: I'll come on and just stay anonymous. Yes, amazing. And listen to Leon's podcast.

Leon: Yeah, yeah, Am I Funny? Yeah, feel free. So good. Thanks, guys. Bye.