Money, parenthood and suicide

Tommy: Wait a minute!

Josh: Crossface, The Daily Talk Show, a conversation sometimes worth recording with Josh Janson and Tommy Jackett. 1:05 of The Daily Talk Show.

Tommy: What's up, guys?

Josh: It's, um, it's Monday, Queen's birthday. Yeah, most parts of Australia.

Tommy: I just didn't even think about the part where it's the Queen's birthday because I actually don't know if it is The Queen's legit birthday. It feels like a Sunday here in Melbourne. There's a great vibe. It is.

Josh: Where have you been?

Tommy: I've been at home, but just driving, you tell people are just loving the weekend. I went out for a coffee this morning and there's a lot, a lot more people out than even on a Sunday. Yeah, so it's like, it feels like people are just, just lapping it up.

Josh: We went to, um, Cheerios Cafe just on, uh, Lennox.

Tommy: Oh, you really ventured off your norm.

Josh: Yeah, yeah. Tommy's saying that because I go there a little bit. Is that what you go every day?

Tommy: That's it. Actually, it's a Monday, so I guess it is your routine.

Josh: Yeah, but we sat down, had a— had brunch. Yeah, we got one side of, um, halloumi and bacon to share. Bree and I both got the same thing. Okay, so we got avocado, like toast, and then we said, can we get one side? And they ended up screwing up and giving us both bacon and halloumi.

Tommy: Well, you know, you're not paying for that, so you were bloody—

Josh: Yeah, it was great. Very happy. Yeah, they said it was almost like a bit of a treat. They said, ah, the chef got it wrong, enjoy. But that's a lot of halloumi for one guy.

Tommy: Yeah. Did you get my— what I said to you? Did you hear what I said to you when I spoke?

Josh: No, what'd you say?

Tommy: I said, oh, you're out spending more than you need on something you don't probably need, about the breakfast. Isn't it ridiculous, fuck, the cost of breakfast?

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: How much did you spend? Let me guess, $52.50.

Josh: I think it was $53. You're pretty close. But I don't know, I think that it's the equivalent of, I mean, what would you pay in car repayments on your car?

Tommy: Oh, I don't know, $300 a month. Okay.

Josh: So, like, because it's all relative, right?

Tommy: That's functional for daily use.

Josh: But the thing is, this is my thing on like the, because I feel like there's a war on brunch that's happening or a war on coffee. That's like, yeah, I have spent less than $50 in my entire life on alcohol. And that's including like, I'm just saying 50 bucks 'cause I'm sure I've shouted something in some weird way where I've bought alcohol, but I've never bought alcohol.

Tommy: So, when you don't have— The markup is ridiculous. I guess that I'm not even, 'cause I do it too, right? I buy breakfast out. So, I'm—

Josh: You're part of the problem. I just don't think it's, but I reckon, I think that you get, caught up in the hyperbole that is the reason that we can't buy a house is because of avocado or this is gonna— I reckon—

Tommy: I'm far against that. I reckon plenty of people are buying houses. The whole point of being in debt is that you're taking someone else's money that you don't have.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: Maybe the person bringing in a $200,000 savings to lower their mortgage is the person that probably doesn't buy avocado on toast.

Josh: But I just think it's all these choices. I reckon like we are, yeah. I don't think that you, I think that there's an assumption that if you eat out and you spend money out, that you're somehow financially irresponsible.

Tommy: Yeah, I think there is elements of it. I think you're not a part of it.

Josh: Well, it's just like you just pick your battle. Like you just pick your battles, you spend on some things that, and so Bri and I don't go out, like we don't like, In the sense of, it's not like we, like where I find that you'd spend so much money is in like the shouting culture of going out and getting drinks for people and shit like that. Like I feel like if I was playing that game, I would be way overpaying than what I should.

Tommy: 'Cause you're generous.

Josh: Well, 'cause I just naturally do that. And then I'm sure it would just be before you know it, I'd be spending a lot of money.

Tommy: Yeah, I spoke to a mate the other night, he dropped $1,000 out.

Josh: Yeah, it's crazy. So that's the thing, like, this is the thing, like, I mean, we have— it's just about prioritization. Yeah, Bree and I have an i30 that's through the company that we spent $15,000 on. Yeah, so it's like we— and it's so everyone's got their different priorities, right? And I think, um, For me, stuff like coffee, like you just do the math. Even Barefoot talks about it, Scott Pape. It's like you are not going to become super rich just by cutting out your latte.

Tommy: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I agree. I think there's habits and mindsets around it that are unique to the individual, meaning some people who are going out 5 days a week for breakfast legitimately can't afford it. That's an individual case though.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: But maybe you can, maybe you can drink coffee.

Josh: Yeah, I think that Yeah, there's definitely— there would be people who are living beyond their means.

Tommy: So many people.

Josh: I think that you'd probably, if you buy a really expensive car, if you were to buy a Tesla before you were to buy a house, maybe you have it the wrong way around.

Tommy: But maybe your priorities are—

Josh: Yeah, but maybe that's— Maybe you sleep in the Tesla. No, but the thing is that you might actually, yeah. Yeah, there's so many factors. Like some people won't, some people don't see the end game as owning a house, which is another part. Like there's people I follow online who have a super successful business and they just lease like Airbnbs and stuff and they go like, so they'll spend, you know, a month in Italy, then they'll go off and they'll go to South Africa, they go to all these different places.

Tommy: So once you've got two properties, there's probably not much chance of you doing that. Yeah, because people are stretching themselves to get a property, but that's a nice lifestyle. That'd be great. Yeah, but it has to be in alignment with— it's like what we talk about fitness regimes. They have to be tailored directly to you and your goals. And if, and if that is this person's goals of, I want to be able to live remotely wherever I want for a month or 3, then it's aligned with what they want to do. Then it's in alignment.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: Yeah, you're right. I gotta, you know, we spent $10 on coffee this morning anyway, so yeah.

Josh: I mean, it's just never, um, it's interesting, like you and I talk about it a bit, this idea of, you know, how you look at money. And I, I definitely have been of the school of if you, if you hold it on too tightly, then you're probably too focused on your grip and not enough time on experiencing life. Or it's that idea of if you hold it so tightly, or if you value— if you put it up so high, it's going to own you. It's going to become such a— every conversation is going to be about money.

Tommy: Yeah, well, I think there's things in life like children that add new elements to the way you look at money. And it's, you know, thinking like you and I talked about putting money away for Bodhi. If you could put $100 a week away for the next 10, 15 years, he'd have a nice little amount of money that would be generating some good interest that would keep going.

Josh: And that's like, that's the thing with kids and all that sort of thing. It's like part of the reason that Bri and I haven't got kids is 'cause we don't really think that we could afford, like we could do it in a way where it wasn't super stressful and a massive impact on the things that we want to do as well.

Tommy: I think it's one way to look at it because I don't think it is the, the truth. Because my dad lost $100,000 when we were young kids in a business that went pear-shaped.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: And he was sending us to private schooling.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: And he's lucky that he didn't lose our house and everything that he had.

Josh: But the thing, I reckon the thing is then, then it's this It's a shift though that if you're making that choice, it's this ownership of choice. And so it's not the, I can't afford X or I can't afford Y, it's I don't want this or I don't want— I choose not to have this because I'm choosing this other thing.

Tommy: But as you stretch, and so my dad had to stretch himself to then make it work because it was the reality that he was in. And it's like Amy and I we're stretching ourselves for something that we can't— can't just handball off Bodhi. Yeah, we could if you're a real piece of shit, but we're not going to, and we're making it work. In reality, Amy and I could be living in Bondi with the amount we're spending in a 2-bedroom looking out over the water, $900 a week, $900 rent.

Josh: Do you have moments of thinking like whether you think about that reality and you think about your choices, or is it when you have— is a kid— because it feels like the kids are those sort of sacred sort of area where it's like once you're— once you've done it, yeah, it's a done deal.

Tommy: So yeah, I think, um, biologically, I, I feel like I, I say these things to you like the Bondi But in reality, it's not really inside me. The feeling that like, oh, this like, oh, I could have had that. Maybe for some people, I don't know, I don't feel it at all. You see this, you see the kid smile.

Josh: But do you reckon that's part, do you reckon this is almost part of like, say, the mental health conversation or things like that? Do you think that people aren't willing, like, so what is it called, postpartum depression or whatever it is, you know, like the depression you can get after having a kid, whatever that's called. Do you think that part of the reason that people have that is because they have these feelings and there is this rhetoric or this conversation that it's, we don't have these, like, oh, you don't think, like, biologically it doesn't really happen? Like, it's okay to sometimes think, like, you know what, like, this is— to have those thoughts that you have around we could be living in Bondi. Yeah, I mean, you don't want to be having it every day because it's not from a mindset point of view, it's it's probably not great for you.

Tommy: Having a kid, you're thrusted into this life that is brand new, so it's like already capacity stretching in a massive way. And for women, dude, what Amy went through and what women go through, like it shakes up your body and your mental, like imagine you're drained of so many of your natural chemicals that you were creating.

Josh: I can relate, I had 7 hours sleep the other day.

Tommy: No, I mean, you can relate. You had an epidural.

Josh: Yeah, I've had an epidural. And it's a full-on thing, but then I didn't have something come out the size of a bowling ball.

Tommy: You would have gone to the toilet after.

Josh: Yeah, no, but yeah.

Tommy: So the point around people feeling depressed, for one, there's a chemical issue there, but for two, Amy was very sad. Yeah, like, there's a— it's a— there's this— it's a reality cheque almost.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: Holy shit. Yeah, but I think you get through it and it's like, but is that—

Josh: there's a lot. I look at that too practically then because I think you'd look at— I see all of this stuff and I'm like, like, yeah, this is— and that's not a reason not to do stuff, but I look at the— I think I put so much weight on having kids and it's not even a selfish thing, it's a thing of wanting to give the best for kids and knowing that the idea of just having a kid and then trying to figure it out.

Tommy: Yeah.

Josh: To me, from, from my life and from Bree and I, it's like we don't want to necessarily put that pressure.

Tommy: Yeah, you're very analytical on what happens in your head, and I think there is a lot of thought there because I think half of the thing with parenting is you can't be thinking logistically too many, too much, because it doesn't make logistical sense to have kids. Having kids, yeah, in this day and age is super hard. Like, money financially doesn't make sense. Yeah, like, um, on your own time, in your own career, doesn't make sense. And but so that's where it's like, but people like my old man got through losing $100 grand, sending his kids to private schooling, bringing us up well. Still showing us love and all these things. So it's like capacity, we talk about that a lot.

Josh: Yeah, but I think that's the thing, whether it's having a kid or whatever it is, I think that the, the learning is that we are adaptable, very adaptable, and whatever that is, whatever that challenge is, we're normally way better probably than what we think to be able to take.

Tommy: You know, we have a greater capacity than we feel.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: At any moment, I think, for anything. Funny thing, I was out with Jules Lund's wife. Jules is in America raising money for Tribe.

Josh: Okay, raising money for Tribe sounds like it's a charity.

Tommy: Well, almost. He's hoping it's a profitable one. But so we're out and his wife said, oh, when it was just— she was reflecting on Jules working and always, you know, being away from work or whatever it be. She said, when I was in labor, Jules was on the phone to Josh Jansen.

Josh: And Amy said, holy shit, when my waters broke, Tommy was on the phone to Josh Jansen. When Till, our mate's wife, was having contractions, I was over at his house collecting a light stand. I've, um, Breen, I don't need kids. We've got everyone around us having them and we can be part— does Anna remember the conversation?

Tommy: No, it was because you were working on Faux Fan Jewels.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: And so there was some— do you remember it?

Josh: Oh no, I do. I definitely remember it all sort of happening. I, and I was so, um—

Tommy: you were getting the social posts ready. What would you like it to say?

Josh: Yeah, definitely. I remember he came on, he was on air, um, you know, between 4 and 6 PM and did a, you know, announced it and all that sort of thing. Yeah, it's, it's interesting. Sad news, uh, end of last week— it's Monday today— Anthony Bourdain, uh, dying.

Tommy: Yeah, well, so I, I heard that. I mean, he's got— I love his shows. He's such an interesting dude, great presenter. And I had— didn't really know much about him, and I saw it come out and I read the article and he's like I saw his age and I immediately thought he's killed himself.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: Because he's young, he's a young dude.

Josh: Well, I just thought my first reaction was like an overdose. Actually, I haven't read any articles since.

Tommy: Yeah, I have.

Josh: So, I don't know, I don't know much. But the thing, I listened to Marc Maron, who has WTF with Marc Maron, the podcast, one of the biggest podcasts in the world.

Tommy: Oh, yeah, that's right. He had Obama on, didn't he?

Josh: Yeah, yeah. He had Anthony Bourdain on in 2011. He gets rid of all of his older episodes, but he put that one out. Oh, that's nice. Um, you know, sort of to celebrate his life. So interesting. I listened to the whole 70 minutes or whatever. Super interesting dude. A guy, you know, Anthony Bourdain is someone who sees himself as having had two lives. He was a massive junkie, um, and so he— but he got beyond all of that. So he had, you know, a pretty terrible life Uh, well, it's this interesting sort of, uh, contrast of from a pretty well-off family, but then just sort of doing the whole sort of chef thing and enjoying the lifestyle that was being high and working and all that sort of thing.

Tommy: Amazing. He was a heroin addict as well at some point. I don't know how that fits into actually keeping a job. Yeah, maybe I mean, there are some functioning heroin addicts. It's so scary. I mean, he's— yeah, he was taken by that and then came back. That's amazing because I never knew that history until recently about him being a heroin addict. And you see him and he seems like this together, you know, well-spoken, you know, driven dude on his shows. Like, I mean, he's presenting—

Josh: well, someone who is, um— I think what I find interesting is that he's a guy who— that has been extremely celebrated. And he's— I think that the— what he represents, I think, is a lot of positivity for many people, which is like, you can have all these things happen to you in your life, but there is— you can choose to have a second life. You can choose to whatever's happened to shift. And to— and people will. The thing is, he talks about— he's like, I've bankrupted a lot of people who have bought into my shit over the years, where it's like, he's like, you know, he would, you know, come into a restaurant and speak to the owner and say, you know, like, this is what you need to do. And he'll throw out a few French terms to describe the different types of food that he would make, and he would get the job. And he was just like full of shit. He would just— I don't even know if he necessarily knew that he was full of shit. He just he was— he had a real high regard of what he did.

Tommy: Yeah.

Josh: And the interesting thing is the more successful he's gotten, the more you hear him coming to the realisation that none of it really matters.

Tommy: I think you see people like him, and then Avicii also took his own life, and you see these— like, it's such a clear thing. Success doesn't determine your happiness. Money doesn't determine your happiness. Like, when you see it at that scale, like him the achievements and the, you know, internal conquering he's done of demons. Yeah, it still isn't enough, right? His friend was on— my dad told me this— his friend, he heard them talking on ABC Radio. It might have been taken from an interview she'd done, and she said, she said, it is a permanent solution to a temporary problem, meaning taking your life and the way you're feeling right now. And I was like Fuck, it is so true because as much as, you know, depression, you might not get rid of it.

Josh: That's our doorbell. We've got a guy named Andrew, Bree's friend, picking up some free plates, which if you've ever listened to our episode about Gumtree, you'll know that somehow whenever we give shit away for free, it becomes a massive ordeal. Yeah, and we end up putting in way more work.

Tommy: Well, I hope Andrew just takes them and really gets out of here. No, but it's, you know, the— I think about all my friends that have taken their lives, and like, I know that they haven't felt that deep sadness at every moment of every waking minute of their life. And so that's— I— that really rang true for me, that a permanent—

Josh: what about this idea? What are you— you know, this is a weird area to talk into, but what about this idea of diminishing returns? Like, what about if he felt that he's like he'd peaked and that all these, like, you know, and he's in this pain. Like, I think that that's this interesting thing of, it's like we're celebrating Anthony Bourdain now, um, and he's, you know, I guess it's just a really this interesting thing where in his mind he's like, okay, yeah, I wonder where, I wonder where he was from a, from a mindset point of view. Can you, I guess that the The hypothesis is that you have to be completely mentally unstable to do that. But I wonder if there was, what was the details of, like, did they go into it? Like, 'cause I haven't released. Yeah. So, I don't like, 'cause I mean, would he have practically said, it's like, okay, I'm looking, like, I'm 61 years old or whatever it was. It's like, okay, what's the, has he looked at the next 20 years?

Tommy: I would, I would tend to think that it is not as thought out like that. I don't think that you're in fog. Yeah, you're in this, this foggy existence where it is the— you have to think about it. I think about my mate who killed himself jumping off a bridge.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: And I, I think about the moment I put myself in his shoes, and that's not the dude I know who would converse with me about everything and, and His clarity was not there. He was emotionally charged in that moment.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: And that's the thing that scares me most about and makes me so sad is listening and hearing about how someone has done it and thinking about where they were at that moment.

Josh: Yeah, because it is a— yeah, as you said, it's a permanent solution to a temporary problem.

Tommy: And they think it's the only solution that time. And so I asked Amy I mean, it can be pretty dark, but I said to Amy, have you ever thought about killing yourself? And it's— and it's— and she said, yeah, when I was young. And she went into some details about some stuff, but she said, I never felt like I would actually do it.

Josh: Yeah, I think that I've, I've used it as a tool to create clarity. I've said, what if it's all over right now? Like, you know, if it was, then it's easier to have the harder conversations, right?

Tommy: But I mean, that's, that's pretty clear.

Josh: I mean, I think that's a, a, um, it's probably the equivalent of like if I was hit by a bus tomorrow.

Tommy: Yeah, yeah, I don't think it's the same. I think legitimately thinking about it is, yeah, different. And I'm sure a lot of people, like, I've definitely thought about it but never, it never truly, if I think about it, been something that I would have done. And it would, and it was only ever at a time where I had so much fogginess about what, where I was, where I was going, what I was doing. And it, and it comes from being in pain and feeling like, is there the solution to my pain? Is that— is this the solution to the pain I'm feeling?

Josh: Yeah. And so do you think, do you think it's driven— is suicide driven by ego?

Tommy: I don't know. Yeah, I don't know. I mean, yeah, I don't even know where ego fits in Ego is, I guess, it's, um, it's how we look at ourselves.

Josh: Yeah, our, our identity. And it's like, it's the point in which the way that I would see suicide is it's the— yeah, it's reflecting, it's reflecting on your identity. Or maybe it's not even that, maybe it's not even as deep as that, maybe it's literally like you've got a severe amount of pain inside of you, and this is the— in some regards, it feels like the easiest way.

Tommy: The solution to pain. I think that's— I think, you know, shortly summarising it, because if you think about, that's what people think, that is the solution.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: To this thing I'm feeling right now, because I—

Josh: yeah.

Tommy: Yeah, it's— I mean, it's full-on.

Josh: Yeah, the— this is like all these sorts of conversations is like the reason why I even think about like the whole kids thing and not having kids. Like talking— I was reading some article the other day where it's like this futurist is saying that there's like, um, you know, 80% chance that we'll— the whole world will be finished in like 50 years, and then 99% chance that it will be finished in 80 years. So I just like—

Tommy: sorry for that dude living in his, his mind. If he truly believes it.

Josh: No, but if that is that the, um, yeah, like maybe that is the real— like, I don't know, maybe that is like the reality. Like how much longer? I just have these moments of, um, what matters. Like what?

Tommy: Yeah, well, I look at Bodhi. And I think about all these things and I made a video that was of my brother's baby and it was just about, it was like a video for her, to her. And to be honest, the sort of driving force behind it was me thinking about all of this stuff, the challenge that people face, young kids, transitioning. I know for me, into being an adult, and how unclear it is, and there's no manual about how to get through it. And I was thinking, you know, in those moments where my friend was about to do it, thinking that no one was there for him or loved him or, or felt, you know, because a lot of people say—

Josh: I think that that's— do you—

Tommy: I think a lot of people say, I think a lot of people say in their last moments, uh, this will be better for everyone else. And that is a massive amount of fog in their mind because—

Josh: Do you think that's a reflection on the people around them or the internal state? Because that's the thing.

Tommy: It's an internal state. I think it's— I think for the majority of people, and I'm talking for the majority, I'm talking, I think more so the people around, people who are unwell, are actually loving them and there for them, and they're going through something internally. And I—

Josh: and sure, you have to accept love. So the thing is, people might be loving them and all that sort of thing, but if it's maybe their ability— like, I don't— it's their ability to accept that around it. And if they can't, if they're not— if they don't love themselves, if they can't reconcile that part, then it's very hard to let that in from around them.

Tommy: There's a— type in Jordan Peterson talking about suicide onto YouTube, and he's a clinical psychologist. Yeah, dealt with thousands of people with, you know, uh, talking about this stuff.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: And he got this, and he's reading through this email that he got from a father whose daughter had taken her own life. And he was— Jordan was talking, and it was so fucking scary because he said there are some instances where there is no helping these people. And that's from someone who understands the brain better than majority of the population.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: And he said, but it doesn't mean that you don't try everything.

Josh: Well, I think that the, the other thing that probably suicide, you know, thinking about suicide and talking about it does is maybe reflecting on the thing before. Like, we can't control suicide. But we don't live with, you know, yes, we live with suicide, you know, people committing suicide, but it's the, it's the things before it that we can actually can control. So it's like, it's not like people go from happy to suicidal. There's this huge— you just have to go to Flinders Street McDonald's to see that there are so many people that are struggling.

Tommy: Yeah, but I think the difference in someone who does it— like, think about all the homeless people. Yeah, they're not— like, I don't know how many— what the data is, but they're not killing themselves. It's not necessarily the people who you think are going to do it. And exactly the case in some of the friends that have taken their own lives. I could not fucking believe it. I could not believe it. Like, the person they were I never knew they battled that hard.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: Or that— and that was why. And so I've gone there in thinking about somebody and knowing them well and them doing— and them actually doing that and thinking about that. Like, it's full-on.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: And so when you see someone that you go, dude, like, the conversations we had, the bubbly they were, the happiness they seemed— maybe a bit up and down, but the hiding of their true feelings internal was so good, as in they put on a really great front.

Josh: Like, what do you think it is?

Tommy: No, I mean, they're not— they're not— the people I'm talking about weren't seeming really sad and just so down. And so it's not— what I'm saying is that that's not always the way it shows itself.

Josh: Well, look at Robin Williams, or, you know, there's lots of examples. Um, yeah, it's like I even feel like with my extreme personality that I'd be more predisposed to this sort of stuff. So I try and think about it more, and I try and like keep it in check, you know, in a lot of ways. But, um, yeah, it's, um, it's difficult. You'd be happy to know that Bree— Bree, did you get rid of the plates? The plates are gone, everyone.

Tommy: Just in case you want—

Josh: just in case we want— we're closing the loop. I'm trying to bring a little bit of light, light to the shade.

Tommy: I think all this stuff makes you feel— it makes you think about what's important. And if I had no business, you know, I didn't have any career and I had my, my wife and my baby, and like that, the— where, where— what brings you joy in life? And that, and that definitely brings me joy, my family, and You know, and so what matters— and that's what I'm saying, it's like when something's stressing you out, it's so, so irrelevant.

Josh: I definitely said that to Bree where I'm like, you know, I could be—

Tommy: she's standing in the doorway looking at you behind you.

Josh: Perfect. Yeah, I could be hit by a bus tomorrow, and, and that gives it— you can't pull that card every single time you get told off for leaving the undies on the ground.

Tommy: Well, there's one thing if you got hit by a bus tomorrow you'd stink because your fucking jumper has been on for 3, 4 weeks in a row.

Josh: It's going well. Bree was behind you nodding. It's fine, I'm actually going to wash it in the next couple of days. But yeah, I think it's just, it's a moment to reflect. What do you think that you naturally reflect on in those, in these, when this news happens?

Tommy: I've been thinking a heap about what, what happened. Yeah, I, I don't know, I'm just—

Josh: it's—

Tommy: I've thought about this so much with so many people in my world taking their own lives. It's like, it, it—

Josh: what are the signs? Are there signs?

Tommy: Not necessarily. My friend who I talked about, um, on the bridge, he'd message me on It was MySpace then. Yeah, he messaged me on MySpace. No, MySpace, no, what was that messaging service?

Josh: Um, AIM, MSN.

Tommy: MSN. So we, me and him, used to just go hard on MSN.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: And he said to me, um, something like, bro, um, you haven't been hanging out with me, or something like that. I just remember reading through the logs after he passed away and I was like, oh my God, like you start looking retrospectively at any little thing. And that's what I mean, maybe there's not warning signs.

Josh: I mean, what did the psychologist— like, what did the therapist say? Did you— you saw the therapist after that, or was it before that? Is it never— because like, uh, not about that, because you can't like retrospectively look back at these things and say, oh, I could have done something here.

Tommy: It didn't take— it didn't tear me apart, but I was thinking, far out, like, you know, you know, that's someone who's not a cry for help, but it's like you—

Josh: there was a disconnect. There was an example of disconnection.

Tommy: Disconnection where, I don't know, now you could message me, bro, you're not answering. Yeah, fuck off, Josh.

Josh: Yeah, you're like—

Tommy: but I wouldn't know, you know. And so that's what I mean, I don't know if there is. And especially, um, yeah, I mean, you just— I think actively asking someone how they're doing. And me, like, I would never have sent that message. I said it on the podcast, I saw that dude who I used to go to the gym with. He was a younger kid, and I saw him at an event the other week, and he said to me something like, um, I've been at the end, or he's like, I've been hanging on, or something like that. And I was like, whoa.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: And he said in front of his mom and, and he, and to me. And so I messaged him, I said, bro, um, so good to see you. Sounds like you've got a really good plan ahead of you. Um, you know, life's hard to navigate, you know. You're doing well, bro, just hang in there. And he wrote back the nicest messages. Thank you so much.

Josh: Wasn't it who dis?

Tommy: He didn't say who it is. He wrote back, thank you so much, man, that means a heap to me. And I was like, that is just something that I picked up on a sign. But how would I have known that unless I've had all these people?

Josh: Yeah, it's tough.

Tommy: Like, it's a way to jolt you into really thinking about how people are communicating to you when it happens to you. So maybe the thought is just think about friends around you, ask them. That's those— what's the campaigns around 'Are you okay?' It's like just initiating conversation could jolt someone out of that, 'Oh my God, this life means nothing, I mean nothing,' you know, because it might just make you go, 'Oh, hang on, what the fuck am I doing?' Yeah, because hopefully it is just fog and it can be lifted. So I don't know, ask someone, give them a fucking hug.

Josh: Yeah, and I think it's, it's also trying to bring this sort of mindset beyond these, you know, issue, like, you know, these, um, instances where things happen, right? Where it's like, how do we 365 days a year have the mindfulness and the self-awareness to be thinking about these things rather than waiting for these terrible things in the world to happen? And also, like, the, the, also the reality is that we, we knew a character that was Anthony Bourdain. Yeah. And so that's, you know, there's a lot of people who were, you know, his family, close friends, colleagues, camera people dealing with him, working with him every day. That's the people that I think about as well.

Tommy: I empathise with people who have people like that in their world, just, you know, sticking in there. What more can you do? Just being there for them. If they need and just loving them because what else can we do really?

Josh: Before we go, some thank yous. Yeah, on the email hi@thedailytalkshow.com, Kathleen listening from London, so good, has been telling all of her friends, all 4 of them at this point, but just slowly but surely.

Tommy: She said she converted 3 to start listening.

Josh: It sounds like a cult. Well, we are. We are a slight cult.

Tommy: And we also got one from David Shiraz.

Josh: Yeah, who's at Canberra FM. Yeah, he's a, um, juno having a crack at the, uh, com radio.

Tommy: Yeah, commercial radio. Thanks, dude. Thanks for listening.

Josh: I like that you cleared that up. Not community radio.

Tommy: Yeah, big difference, especially if you're having a crack.

Josh: No, it's good. Um, thanks for listening, everyone. Please, uh, send those emails. Uh, always curious to, to get your take on these things as well.

Tommy: Yeah, 100%.

Josh: Um, we've got, uh 2 guests for the next 2 days. So tomorrow we have Rob Ward of Quad Lock, the iPhone case, and the day after we have Peter Shepherd, who is a creative coach and one of the coaches for the Alt MBA, which is the course that Seth Godin started. Yes, 2 Meter Peter. Yeah, 2 Meter Peter. He's a big look, big boy. 2 Meter Tweeter. Twitter. Yeah, he's really— I don't— man, he's done well with the brand. I like that. It's— I remember, I remember his name.

Tommy: I just typed in before to Google 2 Meter Peter. Yeah, did he play footy ever?

Josh: No, I don't think so. Why?

Tommy: Because there's a footy player that plays— played for the Gold Coast, played for Gold Coast or Greater Western Sydney, that was 2 metres and his name's Peter, and so he got called 2 Meter Peter. Slight confusion.

Josh: That's fine. He's also known as the, um, the Human Periscope, which is cool. He's got like a really cool logo, you know, like a periscope is a— I'm doing like a thing with my hand.

Tommy: Yeah.

Josh: Anyway, The Daily Talk Show, everyone. Thanks for listening.

Tommy: Thanks, guys.

Josh: Love you. Hope you, hope you're doing well. Bye.