Habits

Tommy: It's a very low barrier to get into the Gronkh Squad.

Josh: That's crazy! We've committed to do the Daily Talk Show for 10 years.

Tommy: Say hi, guys. Hi, guys.

Josh: Put it in the calendar. I just like to cheque the temperature in the room. I told you my squeegee story.

Tommy: It is outrageous.

Josh: Come on, let's go. It's the Daily Talk Show episode 1017.

Tommy: You just looked to that cup and you probably thought, I can't drink that, whoever's it is.

Josh: Well, yeah, I was about to drink— no, I was about to drink it and then I realised that was George's cup. The problem of everyone having— Yeah. Everyone having the same cups here. Yeah. But I love it.

Tommy: Yeah.

Josh: I was thinking about habits. Think about The Daily Talk Show.

Tommy: Yeah.

Josh: Think about everyone that's listening right now. They might be in their car.

Tommy: Might be smoking.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: It's one of your habits.

Josh: There might be—

Tommy: Ciggy in The Daily Talk Show. If that's your habit, let us know. Love to know.

Josh: Or—

Tommy: What do you smoke?

Josh: It could be walking along the beach in the sort of the late afternoon. Can imagine M'Ling doing that in Queensland. That's a good life. Yeah. But I think that's something I was just thinking about with the daily talk show, how being daily, there is a habit that's associated with that, not just for us, but for all the gronks. Yeah.

Tommy: Does it even, do you even think about it as a habit? You know, like it's not a, you don't have a habit of brushing your teeth. You kind of do. You do when you dissect it like that. You just fucking brush your teeth. And so, for me, I haven't thought of the daily talk show as a habit. You just do it.

Josh: Well, I think that we— It's not as consistent. We actually, whilst it's consistent, we haven't really had a strong habit, have we?

Tommy: But what is the habit?

Josh: So, the habit, like what I think about it. So, say for instance, we're doing the show right now. It's Thursday. It's midday on the dot. There's times we do it at 2 PM. There's times we do it at 8. There's times we do it at 9. I think there would have been a benefit which we never got there in cementing a really strong habit around when we were doing the show. Yeah.

Tommy: But then no. If you think about it.

Josh: Well, that we did, we obviously did this for a reason, which is like the flexibility worked. There's probably too much pressure on, you know, there was the, remember we spoke about, okay, maybe we both get in at 7:00 AM and do almost like a breakfast show, like, you know, do the show, get it done and then sort of have our day.

Tommy: See the. Timing thing. So, it's good. I agree that for some people it might work. But if you're hung up on the time being the only time you can do the thing or act on the habit, I don't think you say it like that. You just, it's when you do it. It's the habit has been get it done within the day and make it, make that happen.

Josh: I think it's probably more people that would say, if I don't go to the gym in the morning, I won't go at all. Than people that just like—

Tommy: No, but I mean, the thing is that—

Josh: Have you been the morning gym guy or no? Just like, if I just do it in the morning.

Tommy: Yeah, but I also call bullshit on that for myself because it's like, if you want to get it done, you'll get it done in the afternoon. And if you think about what we've done, it's that. Yeah, give or take a few in the last little bit. Um, but as with the trajectory, you can, you know, kind of say Why? But the thing is that if you don't do it because you're like, oh, if it's not done in the morning, it can't be done at all. It is also if you're annoyed that you can't do it, that if you're annoyed that you haven't been doing something, it could be the essence of why you haven't been able to stick at a habit.

Josh: But it could also be the reason why you get up in the morning with a certain level of excitement or energy. If you're the person that's like, yeah, I operate really well going to the gym in the morning. Yeah, if that serves you and 99% of the time that's the reason why you get up and go, then that's probably more beneficial than the 1% where you miss the morning session and then don't do the afternoon.

Tommy: Yeah, but I think there's probably more people that miss a thing. They think they're that certain type, they miss something and they don't do it, and then next minute they're pissed off. They haven't been to the gym in months because they can't go in the morning.

Josh: What are your favourite habits?

Tommy: Life's got in the way. Fuck, I just, I don't look at life like that, like the habit thing. I just, I mean, what I like doing, I like going to the gym. I just, but even when I was personal training, I'd train every single day, twice a day, but I just, in the morning I got it done because it was a spare bit of time, but I still did it.

Josh: And so, I feel like you're the habit guy. I think you like going, say, like a café. There'll be certain cafés that you really build a habit. Like, I can basically guarantee if I'm coming into the office and I'm after you, you're at a café. Like, you're—

Tommy: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Josh: So, like, that's a very specific habit.

Tommy: That's an addiction. Coffee. It's usually for the caffeine. No, but I like going to cafés in general. I go to a bunch. I love doing it with Bodhi. But yeah, I don't know, this— it's definitely just a— yeah, I don't know, what else is a habit? Brushing my teeth. Did that this morning. That's good. That's a win.

Josh: So what's the energy towards habits then?

Tommy: Oh, I think if— yeah, why do you do things and why don't you do things? Why do you stick at something? Why don't you? And so if maybe there needs to be a level of thinking like, you know, the habits and, and the way of framing that to put the emphasis on it so you start sticking at shit.

Josh: Yeah, I think there's an— habits allow you to connect to the external with the internal. So it's like, when this happens, I do this. So for instance, when, when you go to bed, you brush your teeth. And so the thing is, you've probably done this before where you go into bed and then you realise I haven't brushed my teeth, and it's like a trigger point where you're like, I need to go like I've skipped a step here. So, you go and brush your teeth and go back into bed. And so, I guess that's what habits are doing. It's giving you little indicators. So, it's like, okay, I get into the office. Okay, before I set up my computer, I need a coffee.

Tommy: Is routine your habit? Because I'd probably more likely look at routine.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: Than use the word habit.

Josh: I think routines would be consider— I think if you looked at sort of the hierarchy of the language, it's like rituals.

Tommy: Yeah.

Josh: Which I think rituals is something that's deeper than a routine. And then there's routine and then there's habits. So, I feel like a habit is just— A routine is something consistently every single day, it becomes a routine. You could have a habit.

Tommy: Well, I do that meditation. Mm-hmm.

Josh: What time do you do your meditation?

Tommy: I get it done either morning or the night. I just have to do it. So that's it. So yeah.

Josh: What's the trigger point normally? So do you, when you wake up, are you, do you go into another room and sit down?

Tommy: Yeah, sometimes. Sometimes I don't. If I go to the gym, I'll then do it after the gym in the morning.

Josh: What does it look like? Explain the morning one. What do you like?

Tommy: But this is where I don't like the marriage to like you know, the, like, I'm this process. Yeah, it's like I can do it at night. I'm just being a fucking lazy cunt if I don't go at night and I've wanted to go in the morning. I'm just being lazy. There's something, there's definitely like habit porn, people becoming obsessed with the thoughts, the thought of habits. And I mean, you said yesterday, yeah, you said yesterday, like, the people making the never-ending cycle of people making content about content.

Josh: Well, it's just you asked, I was watching a Hard Drive video and you said, is this guy a production guy, and I think I said I think he's a YouTuber that makes videos on YouTube, like about YouTube or whatever.

Tommy: Yes, which is the never-ending cycle of content about content.

Josh: Yeah, which is definitely like, there's so much to that.

Tommy: But it is also in the habit space of like people obsessing over understanding people's habits and all of that, which, yeah, no, but it's interesting.

Josh: Like, don't you think that I feel like you're probably like, like what you're describing there around like you being a lazy cunt. We haven't said—

Tommy: I'm talking about myself.

Josh: Yeah, I know, I know. But like, isn't that— and sorry for all the swear words, guys, getting them out on the final, final week and a half. Hi, kids in cars. We put explicit on each of these, so it's your own fault. Bad parenting. Seriously.

Tommy: Do you think people look to see if there's an explicit sign on a podcast?

Josh: I don't know. With ours, I think it's just probably assumed. No, but That energy that you're bringing that you're a lazy C, it's like it's, that's the other end of things. Like that feels like a really intense version. Like you say, like habits, like it doesn't, I'm not married to this. If you don't do it, you're a lazy C. Like to me, that seems—

Tommy: No, that's the reason. If you're using the reason as to why you haven't done something is because you couldn't do it in the morning. And then it's like, think about, it's like the person's body that isn't the genetics they wanted and treat it like something else. It's annoying because if that's your situation, it's not going to fucking continue to work. And if you were annoyed because you were the morning person that got it done in the— and it's best optimised in the morning but won't do it then in the night because of X, Y, and Z, it's like— and that's the only time you have. It's like when things get in the way, it's not the ideal habit because there's plenty of things in life that it's not ideal. And so I think we've probably got further with this without having a time slot?

Josh: Well, no, I think like, so, Tiny Habits, which was one of the books that we had on the book club.

Tommy: Great book.

Josh: BJ Hogoff.

Tommy: Hogoff?

Josh: Hogoff. BJ Hogg, I think. Anyway, he's a, like a, specialises in habits and all that sort of thing.

Tommy: Yeah.

Josh: But it's the hard bit about what you're describing, why I don't necessarily connect with it is because there's actually no strategy in place to succeed. What you're describing is it's in the realm of the motivation thing, which is if you're motivated enough to do it, you'll do it. If you want to do it, you have enough willpower to do it. And I think that the science shows that that actually doesn't work. And so we need to have anchors. So there's the version which is like, uh, don't be a piece of shit, just do the thing.. Or there is the other version, which is before I, before I leave the house, I do 10 push-ups. And that 10 push-ups thing is actually way easier to manage mentally than the huge—

Tommy: I just think there's a way of framing it all. And then who is the guy? Like, who is the person?

Josh: BJ Fogg is his name.

Tommy: No, no, no, no.

Josh: I just remember.

Tommy: But when you think about the robotic nature to how these things are explained, And how everything is so like simplified, but then life is so much more complex. And I've heard, you know, walk under a doorframe. Every time I fucking walked under a doorframe, I did 10 push-ups. Well, I think this is, you know, that vibe is like, sure, at some point, but then think about your own life. Think about—

Josh: But this is the trap. The trap of all of this is that we are led to believe that good things need to be hard. That somehow, like, it's the same around advice around if you wrote a page for a book every single day for a year, you would have 365 pages.

Tommy: Or be 3D Dylan, write it in a few months.

Josh: Exactly. But our previous intern. But you can see, like, there is a— there is something to the simplification of stuff and the willingness. It's like when it comes to food, the calories in, calories out thing, you know, energy in, energy out stuff, we all love to complicate it, or I do anyway, right? Like, there's been— and I remember having so many conversations with my brother James, uh, who's an exercise scientist, who had to leave the country because of it. Yeah, exactly. But he, you know, like, you can, you can come up with all of these different hacks or different versions or say, nah, but this or but that, but um, the overcomplication of these things. So that sceptical mind which is like, man, are you kidding me? What, you think 10,000 steps a day is going to do something for you? But it's— I actually think that it does.

Tommy: I think it really— I agree, it would do something for you if you did 10,000 a day. Not about— I mean, that's like 28,000— sorry, 20— 28 $280,000 a month, $310,000 a month. It's actually quite hard to do that. I did that last November. Hard. Much harder than I thought. I'm going to be walking a lot.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: You're out there. And so that— But isn't that— So the simple— So you're saying the simplified can be the trap, but then how is getting it done in a day regardless, is that simplifying it?

Josh: Well, no. So this is the thing. So it's like there is a— Simplifying it, I don't think it's a trap. Simplifying it, like, I think our perception on things, when we say simple, we don't think that it's going to have a high impact. That's what the Tiny Habits book was all about, is it's like, no, it's actually the really small things. In, um, uh, another habits book, I'm trying to remember what it was, they spoke about, um, keystone habits. A keystone habit is a specific habit that will then trigger off a bunch of things. So Having a bottle of water and filling it up, all of a sudden you're drinking more, you're walking to the tap, you're going to the bathroom. All of these other things happen.

Tommy: Yeah. I mean, but why does someone want it more than someone else? Or why does someone fulfil the thing or get through the thing or do the thing?

Josh: What have you discovered in your own journey?

Tommy: I don't know. I can't understand sometimes. I can't understand. And I think the thing is we try and always understand, but there's like a random nature. You know, like if you're bringing it down to— I mean, I can't speak too much on it because I don't have a good understanding on it. Free will conversation versus determinism.

Josh: It's like, why?

Tommy: So, you know, determinism could be that we— everything that— all the decisions, everything in our life is quite worked out without our control. So, freewill doesn't exist. So, we can't choose to do something necessarily because it's a, you know, our history impacts every decision now. And even though I think I want to pick up this glass of water, there's been a bunch of things that have played out for me to get to that point, which it's kind of like can be seen as a bit woo-woo.

Josh: What do you think is better?

Tommy: But by the time you stick at something, what, you know, the things that have been in place for you to then action something and stick at a podcast for 3 years, do it every single day. Like, it's very hard to understand, you know. I think you could point to a few things, but really it's like a moment in time. So when you think about that for your own self, your gym routine Your food, your career. It's like, it's very hard. Like, if you're not the person, if you think, ah, fucking why me with money, but you're not the person that really cares too much about money, it's hard to understand why you're the person that doesn't care and to control the care. Because if you just don't, you know, why do you not, why do you not like Chinese food? It's very hard to understand. Very hard to understand. So, on the spring roll, I mean, if you just don't like the taste of spring, but why do you not like— if you dig down into it.

Josh: So, on the money thing, there's people like— so, if you're using motivation to save money, might not work that well. But if you know that you're going to take 20% of your salary every month and without thinking about it, you transfer it into another account, that is a version of a habit. That requires no motivation, and then all of a sudden you could be good with money. And so, it doesn't really take much. If you're guessing every month, if you're saying, oh, you know what, if you're having to make the decision every month around, am I putting money in or whatever? All of a sudden, you're not good at money. And so, that habit, these tiny habits become— This is who we end up becoming, really. Yeah.

Tommy: And there's a simplification in this. So, it is simplified. One glass every morning of water helps you, like, but then why don't you stick at that if you know it's good for you? How many things do you know that are good thing? How many things do you know that would help you but you don't do? But then why don't you do that? What is it? What's the essence of that? That's kind of what I'm pointing out with the easy nature of motivation online and things like, I think the books like The Habit, you know, Atomic Habit fit into this sort of understanding of something that's really complex and has many layers, but sort of paints it in this really sort of simplified way, which a lot of people connect with. I'm not saying that.

Josh: So, what's the other option, though?

Tommy: I'm not sure. I'm not sure.

Josh: Yeah, because—

Tommy: But if you're just a walking sort of regurgitating these books, it's like, but it doesn't actually sit for you. Because I think there's a lot of people like that, read a heap of books and understand them, but don't actually act on anything.

Josh: Well, because the thing is there's like intellectual knowledge.

Tommy: Yeah, yeah.

Josh: You know, like, I think most people know what they need to eat, what they need to do, like, all— like, I think we, we know it. And so it's not about the intellectual side.

Tommy: We know what we need to do, but we don't do what we— yeah, I think something like that.

Josh: But so, but I think they're like— I love habits. I think that for me, when I'm feeling my best, it's when I have habits and I have routine. I think that for me, say, in sort of transitional periods like right now, um, yeah, a lot of people say that you default back to basically what you know. So what is it like? What is your default? What do you know that when you're pushed against a wall and you— Fucking kickboxing, dude.

Tommy: Kickboxing and some slight grappling.

Josh: But there's probably something in this, right? Like, you think about even you, think about how you approach life or how you approach things. What are the things that you do just based on if you're exhausted?

Tommy: GTL.

Josh: What's that?

Tommy: Gym, tan, laundry.

Josh: Do you actually?

Tommy: No, no, no. It's a Geordie Jersey Shore reference. They have it, their atomic habit. Gym, tan and laundry. That's the day.

Josh: And so, like, from it, yeah, I think.

Tommy: No, but going to the gym, Write, like doing 20 pages. Like I'm answering your question.

Josh: But that's not the default, though.

Tommy: You just asked me what the default is. So, you're saying what do you when you're pushed against a wall?

Josh: So, not default as in, so, I think that that's like it's for me, it's like walking more. It's this, it's that. No, I'm not talking about the default obvious thing that we know that's going to make us feel better. It's the default things that we do that aren't say necessarily wrapped up in the habit stuff, but it's just our go-to. So, for instance, for me, it's like food related, it could be sleep related. So, it's like, you know, how many people like, you know that you're tired, but you just keep watching, like there's a resistance to going to sleep. And so, the thing is—

Tommy: Scrolling.

Josh: So, the thing is—

Tommy: Just lighting your mind up more.

Josh: So, for instance, with you feel like when you're feeling terrible is the first thing without even really thinking about is your default just like, "Fuck it, I've picked up a pen and a paper." Oh, no, no, no. I'm writing it like that's just naturally. It's like I can't even control. I've just woken up in the morning. I just need to fucking get this done. Right.

Tommy: So, you're talking about unconscious. So, what you've just said is unconscious things that you go to.

Josh: Yeah, it's whatever the default is typically.

Tommy: I think, I mean, I've had the, like the scroll, like scrolling, being sucked into just, it's like almost a removal of, it's like a removal of your mind. It's this weird, like you plug into something. I can't do as much of it now with Bodhi. Especially when he's around because he's on to me. So it's interesting how that sort of broken me out of it. But I've even noticed a few times where, yeah, it's like, I should go to sleep. But the meditation thing, actually, like, no joke, I reckon I consume more of that type of content when I'm in a harder spot, listening to shit, you know, like I did it one year. Yeah, definitely. But I mean, there's, yeah, food, eating food that makes you feel good, drinking. So, it's like, what are the traps? Is that what you're saying?

Josh: No, it's not even the traps.

Tommy: Because they're pretty negative, all the things you've listed.

Josh: So, but there are individuals that have really, like, so for instance, potentially the opposite to what you're describing. Like, I think that we're probably in the, the common camp. But there's another version, which is it's probably people who it's like they start to try and once their life's out of control, they start controlling food more. So, they actually eat less, they're like, or they forget to eat or like—

Tommy: Oh, you forget. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's not— I don't forget to eat, son.

Josh: And so, but that's another version too. And so, the thing is that there is, I can see the times where I've struggled in life, it always goes to these common defaults. And those defaults, I guess, is probably a mix of your upbringing, genetics, your environment, your friendship group. And then it becomes— I think that habits, for me anyway, are about creating, recognising, okay, these are what my default things are. This is why I do when I don't put in any effort. My default isn't if I'm feeling shit to go on the exercise bike., but I know that it will make me feel better. Great. And so, then it's working out, okay, like the habits for me become almost medicine from the other issues. And because once I start doing that, then other things happen. I think the idea of it hasn't worked or, you know, we say we're going to do these things and they don't stick or whatever it is. I think that's, uh, for the most part because we tend to overcomplicate or we overcommit. So when we started the Daily Talk Show, it wasn't about doing 1,000 episodes or 10 years. It was about just doing it and testing. And then we said maybe we'll get to a, to 100. And so I think for most is it's like our creativity, our ambition We think about what we can become. We think about, you know, we think about the abs before we've, you know, even, you know, gotten to anywhere.

Tommy: You feel pretty good about the abs that you are going to have, or think about like the good feelings gone.

Josh: Well, think about like golf. People look at like— the fucked up thing about golf is most amateurs spend a lot of time watching the PGA Tour, right?

Tommy: Is that right?

Josh: Yeah. No, so, so the thing is, the fucked up thing about golf— so the different— the difference between like many sports, I I think like golf and other sports. Golf, um, you, you sort of, for whatever reason, there's a— there's— you feel like there's— I think a lot of golfers see that there's less of a difference between them and what a professional golfer could be. Like, there is— like, you're not talking— there is a bunch to it, obviously, but it's, it's not like, um, It's not like tennis or like basketball or things like that. And so, I think that heaps of people spend time watching professional golfers and then they get, you know, pissed off on the course.

Tommy: That they're not as good.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: Because they can see, because they go on a golf course, whereas I didn't go into an octagon where, you know, up against some guy beating my head in. So you don't— Yeah, but you, but you're playing golf. I'm just trying to get—

Josh: Well, yeah, yeah, there's a, there's a sense with golf that you can, um, it's an— It's, it's not like, uh, athletic prowess necessarily. And so it all comes down to technique. And, and so I think that a lot of people fall into that trap of trying to be, you know, ridiculous. Um, But yeah, that's probably not great enough.

Tommy: No, I was trying to get there. The biggest thing I know, you can, you can be the golfer because you can go and play at a really nice golf course where Tiger Woods has played. Yeah, but you're not Tiger Woods. But you can be annoyed because you're playing the same golf course. You have access to it.

Josh: Well, you've got to ask yourself, what game are you playing?

Tommy: What game is it?

Josh: And so, well, I think that most, like, where you will find the most amount of happiness is playing the game that's for you, not for Like, so if you play a game that's for like— and people will play better golf if they actually try and play their version of golf, which means maybe not trying to hit the skin off it. But you can actually, if you can actually just avoid the bunkers, that can be a good version.

Tommy: Putt the whole course.

Josh: Yeah. Now, there you go. Just put the putter out. No, but I think that the habit thing—

Tommy: I think you're spot on. But the habit thing and the way of framing it works for some people reading these books. And then for other people, it probably doesn't.

Josh: And what do you think it is?

Tommy: I don't know.

Josh: It's—

Tommy: I've got as much information as why I stick to one and I don't stick to another. You know, it's very hard to sort of pinpoint.

Josh: What's the—

Tommy: Why in the past I've stuck to something really hard and others—

Josh: How do you learn to understand yourself?

Tommy: Well, there's a lot that you don't understand, I think. So, think about your own experience with a habit you've stuck to. What's one that you've stuck to? Daily talk shows, probably one for both of us that we've neglected everything, but you've stuck to it, right? And so, but then why haven't you done that with something else? I think that it's, um, I think you can come up with, we can all come up with some answers, but whether they're like It's actually a trend.

Josh: Well, I guess like the hard thing is, and this goes back to the storey conversation the other day, it's like, you know, don't tell stories, like, you know, everything's a storey and all that sort of thing. It's like, where do you—

Tommy: It's not don't tell stories. What do you like to land? What storeys are you telling?

Josh: Yeah. Where do you land with all of this? How do you actually like— I think that this is a version now, like, it to me, it's like, okay, you've had some pain in it, like this, say this. So, this is because I can't tell you what you're thinking. So, it's very hard. I think that like my version—

Tommy: You can't tell anyone what they're thinking because you don't know.

Josh: My version is it's like this habit not working out or has— Because there's a version of like you like habits are important, like, you know, habits are things.

Tommy: I don't think it's that this habit hasn't worked out. I don't think it's— I wouldn't frame it like that.

Josh: But I think there's a bit which is um, a way of coping with not doing it or whatever, which is like push it away. Like, no, you know what, habits, habits are actually bullshit. Like, it doesn't fucking matter, all of that sort of thing. But I think there's another version.

Tommy: Habits are bullshit? I don't think I've said that.

Josh: Yeah, what is it? What's, what's the, what's your version?

Tommy: I think not everybody looks at it as black and white or as simply as, you know, stick to this little thing. And I think, I think even if the people who say this stuff, I mean, so what would you suggest?

Josh: Like, would you suggest someone said to you, TJ, I really want to get my life in order.

Tommy: I'm not a fucking life coach. How? I'd say go to Craig Harper. He'll sort you out.

Josh: But what is the like? What do you, what do you know to be true? What do you like? What is the jacket version?

Tommy: It'd be like, then what, what have you stuck at? Like, what have you just gravitated towards? So it could be something around that space. And you can— and you could— I mean, you can always look for— so we can look for why we've done this. It's like, um, other people, having, having somebody, uh, to keep you accountable, um, you know, or a coach or somebody that you're going to rock up to a mentor that might keep you consistent or keep you, you know, keep, keep your eye on the prize. But because then what will— I don't have the answer for this person. They're not coming. I mean, they're not paying for this advice, so, um, can't give you money back. There's nothing to give. Yeah, I think it's, um, I just see, I just see how this stuff is just regurgitated from books and no one fucking changes their life. No one actually does anything.

Josh: But a lot of people do.

Tommy: Yeah, some people do.

Josh: What you're describing is actually most people don't do the thing that is in the book.

Tommy: So, it's very peculiar. So, what about this? So, if you have a crack at something and it doesn't stick, it doesn't mean that you're bad or that you're at fault.

Josh: But you just had said that you're a lazy fuck.

Tommy: No, I didn't.

Josh: When you're talking about the gym stuff, it's like if you don't go, like—

Tommy: No, but that's— Yeah. And I'll still say that in that context. If you're using the morning thing as the reason why you aren't doing something, But maybe that's the reason. Don't have the constraint of I'm the morning person, I can only get up in the morning.

Josh: But maybe that's the problem you have with habits is you're attaching it to the person rather than it's like, hang on.

Tommy: But that's all you've got, attaching it to the individual.

Josh: Which I don't, I guess that that's like the difference. So, what I'm describing, the great thing about the habit for me is it becomes about the process, about like, okay, it's not about how I feel about getting on the bike, it's not about who I am on the bike, it's not about that. It's just about getting up and doing that thing. But as soon as you— I think that the reason why I have failed previously is because it's very— if you miss a day and all of a sudden you're the lazy fuck, it's very hard to change who you are. It's very easy to change it.

Tommy: I'm only saying the lazy fuck thing if you were— if your only chance of doing it was ever in the morning.

Josh: But maybe— But is that true?

Tommy: That's all I was saying. And I was saying, no, it's not true because there is the 24-hour thing. You can get it done.

Josh: But I think that you're— What you're communicating, I think, is very common. I think that's what a lot of people would think, but it doesn't give you much. It seems like— I think that the hard bit is that tough love on yourself where it's like you're a lazy fuck or like whatever it is. I have never found it to work personally for me. But this is for many people.

Tommy: Look at David Goggins, you know, sits there for fucking 20 minutes tying his shoes, talking about how he doesn't want to go. Come on, pussy. And goes. And so this is the thing. I'm not in a room with a guy who's just told me that they aren't doing something every morning and me calling them a pussy. So You can't take that out of context because it's me talking to myself and what I've battled or what I've gone through is don't make it about the time slot. Don't make it about fucking the weather. It's like at some point you can get it done and you can. Like this show, we got it done.

Josh: And so the thing is, this isn't about like creating excuses.

Tommy: That's a great piece of advice for somebody. Clap it.

Josh: What was the advice? Say it again.

Tommy: I'm just saying, like, you just— the point is What I said may resonate and you're saying doesn't resonate, but that doesn't mean it doesn't resonate with anybody.

Josh: Yeah, I think like the habit thing is interesting because I think like you haven't always been against that idea.

Tommy: But I also don't— But I've also just done things not and haven't necessarily framed them in the— Like it's probably more tricky for my mind to dive into some sort of like, you know, like the way that you're speaking.

Josh: What about the PT? So, you being a PT. Um, you know, when you were younger, how would you have communicated to a client for them to get good at something? Like, what's the version? What are you good at? What? Or like, just get to their health goals. How do you take a health goal and actually make it something that's achievable?

Tommy: That's it. And this is— what's the health goal? What's the individual like? What's their past? It's so unique to the individual. And so it's not just like But there's also another— Don't do this.

Josh: Well, no, there's another version, which is at the end of the day, we are made up of, like, whether we like it or not, we are made up of habits. You are made up of habits. There are a bunch of habits that you have throughout the day. And so, my thought is if we know that we're made up by our habits—

Tommy: But are we? Like, I don't know if it's framed like that.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: I think there's probably a little bit more complex— Complexity to that.

Josh: No, like—

Tommy: We're made up of habits. Yeah.

Josh: Well, like that's all.

Tommy: Habitual thinking.

Josh: That's all. Yeah. Like the thoughts that you have every day, the things that you do, there's a lot of consistent. If you actually zoom out, there's heaps of consistency there. Yeah. And so, that idea.

Tommy: But do you associate them like you would to brushing your teeth? So, your thinking versus the brushing your teeth thing.

Josh: Well, what you're talking about is.

Tommy: Because when most people are, when these books are about habits, referring to either actions you were needing to take.

Josh: So what it's, what it's doing is it's trying to shine a spotlight on how the habit comes to be, and then it's your choice whether you want to consciously have an impact on that. So for instance, using the brushing the teeth thing, whilst we don't have it— like if you said, tell me your brushing your teeth habit, You wouldn't say, okay, when I, you know, before I go to bed, you know, or like when I take my socks off or when I do this or when I do that, I brush my teeth. But that's what we unconsciously end up doing. We create these habits and triggers and all of this sort of thing. Before I go to bed every night, I cheque the door's locked. Like, that's just a habit that I have every, like, Chip, okay, done. And so, the habit there is What— think about, like, think about the habit of— so for me, it's like turning the lights off, turn it off in the kitchen, turn it off in the lounge, cheque that door. Like, there are so many versions every single day that we do. And so for me, it's just— I under— I think that where you're coming from, which I understand and I empathise and I feel the same way, which is like Uh, there are many people who will be stuck in theory, that will be stuck in the perfect hypothesis on how to live your life, the perfect version on how you should be doing things, but they never move forward. They never take it to the next step. Is it the people who are trying to make habits stick that don't? I don't think so. I think that the frustration that you're feeling is the people that don't necessarily take it to the next step and actually give it a proper crack. And I think that there's probably a version even in myself, which especially on the back of something that you could perceive as a failure or not doing what you hope to do.

Tommy: That's not the case.

Josh: They could. But I feel that this is how I feel. So, it's like, okay, I said I was going to do something. So, the 10-year thing. And I'm not doing it. There is a version which you could say, or I could say, it's like, you know what, like, your words don't really mean much. Or like, like putting that, like, what did putting that out there do? I think that failure makes you feel like you shouldn't have had a crack or you shouldn't have said that thing or you shouldn't have put your neck out on the line. Whereas there is another version too, which is like, I learned something by saying 10 years, we got to 1,000 episodes. We got all of this, like, look at all of the great things that happened. But I think that the making yourself small or saying you can't fucking do that, like you're not the fucking Habits, like you're not that, like to me, that's where I can relate to it is that is definitely a thought, an internal monologue that happens every time I fail. But we only have the choice that we have is—

Tommy: I'm not thinking that though.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: What about the person that hasn't been able to make anything stick? But is hearing the sort of simplified nature of these books and these people who kill it.

Josh: I think that there's probably—

Tommy: And then are trying to understand why they haven't been able to make any change.

Josh: So, it's mindset because there is actually like it's purely perspective. There is shifts that happen. It's just whether you're willing to see them or not. If you like, we could easily sit here today and say, you know what, we actually haven't learnt much. I actually sort of feel pretty similar to what I did when I started.

Tommy: But I think that's— I think that there's truth to that. And so, because it does feel like— because all you've got is now and you're like, fucking, I don't really feel like I'm just— it's just me.

Josh: And so, that's a perspective. So, the perspective—

Tommy: No, but the thing is you have. You always will have.

Josh: Well, but yeah, and this is— yeah, that's what I'm saying. So when with the thing of like it's not sticking, uh, maybe it's not meant to stick if you're like— and, and, um, uh, and that's I guess where it becomes— this is like the finite game versus the infinite game. This is like trying to be output, uh, sort of output focused or, um, uh, arriving destination focused rather than process. If you can focus on, okay, say if you're doing a YouTube channel and you're only getting a certain amount of views or whatever it is, yes, you could say, uh, it's not sticking. But does that mean that you're not like gathering a heap of information to like what's next? And I think that that's, I think that anyone that's doing something, anyone that's executing on a habit is learning something. And so, yeah, I like, I think that habits will be the backbone of what I do next. And that's like the— and it's stripping it right back to the basics because if I go too complex on it, if I try and fucking add every single habit, it won't work for me. It's like, okay, waking up at this time and then doing X, Y, and Z, like, you know, 3 little things that I'll do every day. But if I was to, you know, try and do these big things and not have any process in place, like, what do you expect?

Tommy: Yeah, it's hard. Million steps a month. I want you to hit that though.

Josh: I reckon you could. I'd fuck me hamstrings. But yeah, hi@thedailytalkshow.com if you want to send us an email. What is being the habit that you've connected or the anchor for the Daily Talk Show habit? So, when do you listen? Do you find that Do you cheque your phone? Is it a lunchtime thing? Is it when you're going to bed? Going for a walk?

Tommy: Or straight after sex with your partner?

Josh: Yeah, maybe. During? Hi@thedailytalkshow.com. Extra points if— Have you had sex whilst listening to the podcast?

Tommy: Have you thought about us?

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: Just after?

Josh: In the early days, I've definitely had an episode. Bri wanted to hear an episode. Of the Daily Talk Show and just so happened things happen. And so it may have been on in the background, but I made—

Tommy: I'm sure it has. I'm sure it's happened before too.

Josh: Yes. All right, have a good one, guys.

Tommy: Yeah, see you guys.