Lisa Stephenson on understanding your story

Josh: It's The Daily Talk Show. I'm Josh Janson.

Tommy: I'm Tommy Jackett.

Lisa: And I'm— oh, can I say hello already?

Josh: Yeah, say your name.

Lisa: I'm excited. I'm Lisa Stevenson.

Josh: Hey Lisa, and this, this is a conversation sometimes worth recording, but I think with Lisa being on, we can get rid of the sometimes because it will definitely be worth recording.

Lisa: Well, maybe should we make that decision at the end?

Josh: Well, it makes me— whenever I have someone on, I always get like, uh, the first two 2 minutes is me freaking out about the recording, making sure that we're— the levels are okay.

Tommy: But have you— as you've gained Lisa, yes, that's Josh on macro scale. Yes, freaking out about majority of things going on.

Lisa: That has been my experience of him already, and we've been here for 10 minutes.

Tommy: You've talked about applying creams to your cut, you've talked about shitting yourself.

Josh: No, that was Lisa was giving me feedback.

Tommy: No, but you've talked about— you've both—

Lisa: okay, sure, there was a debrief.

Tommy: It's been good.

Josh: But so yeah, Tommy, explain how you know Lisa, please.

Tommy: Maybe, no, I want Lisa to explain how we know each other and then I'll see if that, you know, works together because I told Josh on the way here how we kind of met.

Lisa: Yes. And my version might be different.

Tommy: Yeah, I know, I want to hear it.

Lisa: Yeah, okay. So I would say it's about 8 years ago. I went to this little event called MBE, Mind Body Emotion, which was really code for we're going to make you vomit on the beach and run really hard and exercise like a boot camp styled experience.

Tommy: It was a bit of that.

Lisa: It was a bit of that hosted by our mutual friend, Mr. Craig Harper.

Tommy: Yes.

Lisa: And you were there and I think you were 12 at the time.

Josh: Pretty sure I wasn't that far off.

Lisa: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Your hair was like it is now. You've always had your quiff going on.

Tommy: It's a toupee. It hasn't changed and it won't change.

Lisa: And we, um, you and I worked out together.

Josh: Yeah.

Lisa: And at that time you were in your personal training phase.

Josh: It is a phase, isn't it?

Lisa: It is a phase, I think. Well, it was for Tommy.

Tommy: Most personal trainers want to get out of being a personal trainer to get to the next thing.

Lisa: Do they?

Tommy: I think so. Most of the ones I know are like trying to transition out, create their own online program.

Lisa: I feel like you've interrupted me already.

Tommy: Well, this is it.

Josh: This is the shtick.

Lisa: This is why.

Josh: We have a segment called Close the Loop where we collect all the shit that we've not finished.

Lisa: All the storeys that we started and didn't finish.

Tommy: But we'll let you finish.

Lisa: So, well, that was it really. No, no, no, I'm joking. So, we, yeah, so, and then after that, I think we decided we kind of liked each other. I was at that time in a really interesting— well, interesting is not the right word, but had just very suddenly become single mom and trying to transform life, body, and all of it. And we used to hang out in your gym together and you used to train me.

Josh: Yeah.

Lisa: And look at you now, all grown up with a podcast.

Tommy: Isn't it the same here?

Lisa: And the same hair. Look at you go.

Josh: I remember a few months ago, maybe 6 months ago, Tommy was telling me that how he was speaking to you on the phone. So, this is how I—

Lisa: Which was not appropriate for our podcast.

Josh: No, this is my first memory of Tommy. It's funny how when you connect up with someone, the first conversation, I remember Tommy being like, mate, 'cause we would have before the podcast.

Lisa: I just wanna laugh already. Yeah, where is this going?

Tommy: I don't know.

Josh: Everyone's nervous.

Tommy: I'm nervous.

Josh: Everyone's nervous. No, but Tommy, you know, we're always, looking at inspiration and what people are doing and all that sort of thing. And I remember Tommy got off the phone with you and was saying, mate, she's going to America. She's doing all this.

Lisa: She's— Did he say it with that tone? Yeah, that's my voice.

Josh: Going to America, like big smoke, going to America. She goes to America.

Tommy: US of A. Yeah, they fly her there.

Lisa: In an actual plane.

Josh: Yeah, in a plane. And she's, Um, and so I started talking about all the leadership stuff and all that sort of thing, and what I was getting out of it was how annoying Lisa— no, the personal, like how, uh, um, maybe a bit about on personal brand and how someone can actually build a business around themselves first and actually scale it up to be something that's like fairly, like, that's really successful versus just paying a salary, like getting to a point where it's like you're coveted, that people want you, like want to actually get you somewhere to, and your main commodity is, and you can correct me if I'm wrong, but it's like your mind, it's your ideas, it's your ability to facilitate all of that sort of stuff. What is it that you do now? How do you describe it to people?

Lisa: Oh gee, right. So, well, firstly, that was nice. And it is, I have worked really hard. I have been consulting, coaching, facilitating, learning, studying for about 20 years. So I know I don't look that old, do I? I know you're shocked, I can see it on your face.

Josh: She started when she was 5 years old, guys.

Lisa: Yeah, 5. And so there is something that is super cool about someone saying, we are going to, pay you to go to another country, whether it's Asia, America, New Zealand, to work with our people.

Josh: Yeah.

Lisa: And I think that's about lots of really hard work, building trust and rapport, exceeding expectations of what people actually expect from you. Yeah. And I'm really committed to creating an experience and an environment where people can learn about themselves. Yeah.

Josh: How do you measure? So, like, how do you actually measure whether you're doing a good job at what you do?

Lisa: If they're laughing at my jokes, that's my measure. That's my measure. Are they having a good time? And if they're laughing at me, which is normally something I ask them to commit to upfront. Yes, it's a good idea. It works for me. It just keeps my energy going. So, I think you know you're doing a good job because you can see people reflecting and thinking, and the emotion is normally quite obvious if someone is doing the work on themselves. And also people do tell you if you're doing, if you're hitting the brief or not.

Tommy: And you get hired again.

Lisa: And you get another job and your invoices get paid. Correct. Yeah.

Tommy: What clients are you working with in that coaching consulting?

Josh: You don't have to say exact names.

Tommy: I mean, but can you?

Josh: It's bang on.

Tommy: I mean, I'm trying to get her to pick herself up a bit.

Josh: But no, I also want to give her the opportunity not to shitcan things, but talk openly without the—

Tommy: But don't answer a question for her.

Josh: I know. I just saw Lisa flinch when you said, what clients are you working for?

Lisa: And I couldn't tell.

Tommy: And so now I've seen Lisa speak a lot of times and she talks about all this stuff. So I'm asking a question I know the answer to.

Lisa: Yeah, which seems weird, but can I just say, Josh, I really appreciated your sensitivity and support. Tommy clearly doesn't care. And I appreciate that.

Tommy: I'm a little bit too dicks, as Craig Albers says.

Lisa: So, so, so of course we actually sign a lot of confidentiality contracts. There's lots of clients that we work with on a one-on-one basis that we would never talk about publicly because we do work with elite athletes, entrepreneurs, CEOs, all different types of people really. It doesn't really matter what they do. Coaching is kind of relevant to everyone. But in terms of who are the people that we service with as organizations, shall I pull out some names? They're nice ones.

Josh: Tommy's gonna fucking love it.

Lisa: So just do it. Okay, so we've delivered programmes and work for Telstra, for Macquarie Bank, NAB, National Australia Bank, Australian Unity, Treasury Wine Estates, which are the people that send me to America, to Napa. Can you believe they actually pay me to go to Napa?

Tommy: It's crazy. I mean, we beefed it up, so it felt bigger than it was, or it needed to be by saying the clients' names.

Lisa: No, I think that was—

Tommy: No, I'm saying Josh saying, prefacing that what we're about to do is big. But the reason I wanted to to give you the opportunity to talk about what you're doing. Because I think like if we go back those 8 years when we met, you said it was a time that was tough for you. And I mean, everyone was on that programme because they wanted to change something. Craig had 100 people who, you know, were in all sorts essentially. I remember people crying. It's a weekend where you're kind of opening up.

Josh: I don't know if I could handle a group setting like that.

Tommy: It's not, it's not, I don't think it, it's not all like that, but there is isolated instances where that is going on. I mean, Lisa and I are laughing and training.

Lisa: Vomiting on the bench.

Tommy: But to be honest, from knowing your storey now and knowing you at that time, I had no idea what you were going through. And it's like 8 years later, you've been able to tell the story. Can you tell the storey of what you were going through at that time?

Lisa: Can we? All right. We'll do a small version of that. Um, so at that time, it's about 8 and a half years ago, I very suddenly became a single mum and found that my husband at the time— we had been together since we were very young— had left and was not coming back. And I found myself in the position of being the sole carer of 3 little people, and It was just the most overwhelming thing to think that I am now going to have to be responsible for their emotional, spiritual, physical well-being, and I need to find a way to earn an income. And I think what was significant for me at that time was that I was prepared to do the work that was required to create an awesome life. And it was, it was a traumatic time. Like, we're talking sitting in the bottom of the shower and going, how do I do tomorrow?

Josh: Sitting down in the shower is pretty underrated though. Like, you know, like—

Lisa: Now I do it just for fun.

Josh: Yeah, exactly. Like, it can be a traumatic experience, but it can also be a way of life.

Lisa: Yeah, that's right. Therapeutic strategy, a life strategy.

Josh: Yeah, just put on some goggles.

Lisa: Yes, until the hot water runs out. This is where we solve the big issues. If only we had known how many things could be solved with a hot shower, sitting in the bottom of a hot shower.

Josh: And now you have your own Plastic chair that you put in there.

Lisa: Yeah, with a little railing just for me.

Josh: So, you were going through that time, what was the default? Was it worrying about your kids as the default thing? Or what's like, when something like that happens, where does your mind first get? Like, what's the first thing that you actually think about?

Lisa: That's a good question because it's a simple answer, which is survival. It's about survival. How am I going to pay the bills? How am I going to get them to school? How will I keep them safe? How will I give them everything they need? And in the middle of that, as a grown-up, you know that there's something that's required about looking after yourself.

Josh: Yeah.

Lisa: You know, and—

Josh: It sounds pretty selfless in the sense of I feel like if that, something like that happened to me, the default would almost be like a bit PR strategy where it's like, what's the storey that I'm going to tell the world of what's just happened to me? Which probably says a lot about my own issues.

Lisa: That's interesting. Should we maybe unpack that?

Josh: We can unpack that.

Lisa: Maybe. Yeah.

Josh: But did you, how much of that storytelling for you was the important thing of understand, like how much did you need to understand what happened versus just moving forward?

Lisa: So I've only just started sharing the storey recently. There have been times over the years where in the spirit of building trust and sharing and honouring my clients, I have shared some of the storey because they have been courageous enough to talk with me. But in terms of the public speaking that I do to large audiences and the book that I've written and the conversations that I now have with people, it's actually pretty recent. I would say the public version of that was an event that Tommy and I were at together not that long ago, really.

Tommy: It was another one of Craig Harper's camps.

Lisa: It was.

Tommy: It was. Isn't that funny?

Lisa: Does that mean you and I are awesome and/or we just need to get a life? Well, we paid to go to the first one.

Tommy: Now he then pays us to go to his menu to help him out.

Lisa: Hang on, hang on, just stop right there. I didn't get paid. Oh well, did you?

Josh: Well, I make videos, so minimum wage, to be clear.

Lisa: Yeah, I did get dinner. I did get dinner.

Tommy: Yeah, but that— you did share that.

Lisa: I did share that. And so did you?

Tommy: Yeah, I was crying up the back.

Lisa: Oh, thank you for caring.

Josh: You're gonna collect these tears? Like, thank you. Well, I've got the jar.

Tommy: I can just—

Lisa: because mostly, did you notice my shock? Most of you, mostly you just laugh at me and make fun of me. So it's nice to know that you cared a little bit as well. So if we kind of circle back to that question, you know, back in the first years of establishing this business, I wasn't. It was about the little entrepreneurial voice saying, well, you could just go and get a job. And I had always had a career that I had been proud of, but it was just something that I did, you know, being a mum and being a wife and being a friend and part of a family, and all of those things were really important to me. And then I found myself in the position of saying, well, if I was going to be brave and if I was going to absolutely be the person that determines what my future is going to look like, that means I need to do the work to work out what that would be. And I didn't sit there and go, oh, how about, you know, a global consulting company and maybe someone will pay me to go to Napa. But I did think big.

Josh: Yeah. And so did you— how much in your mind, because as you were saying, you only recently started externalising that story, how much did it actually play on in your head? Was it something that you thought about a lot or was it something— did you use it as fuel or like what happens to that storey in over an 8-year period? When you go through something traumatic, like what is the actual, what's the journey in regards to getting to the point of telling the story?

Lisa: So basically I was just told to by our friend Craig Harper. But no, there's been a real evolution. There's been an evolution of sharing with clients and sharing with friends and in drafting and redrafting a book and how it is that I wanna share that.. And also even conversations actually with my ex-husband to say, you know, have I got this right? You know, am I really honouring kind of the truth of what happened and making sure that I'm being respectful of what is true? Um, and so I would say that, I don't know, the work we— that I've done with others and the work that I've done on myself is what's allowed me to be really good at my job. By having experiences that really push us to find out what we're capable of, we then see it in others.

Tommy: Yeah, yeah. I've been thinking a lot recently about where you are right now, and for me personally, and thinking about the place in the storey of my life of, of where that is. And so it's with my business, and I was talking with someone recently about— they said, is— do you think this is the thing for you? Like, your business, do you think that's 'Is this your big thing?' And I was thinking, I don't know, I don't know if it is. And where does it fit within my story? 'Cause it's a hard thing to swallow if you're like, you've just started this business and you're like, this isn't the big thing for me, but it's a part of my storey that needs to get me to that big thing. And so, I mean, for you, it's like, were you conscious of that story? I guess it's kind of where Josh was going. Are you conscious of like, maybe this is just that part.

Lisa: Was that your way of saying I didn't answer his question?

Tommy: No, no, no. No, but yes.

Josh: Do you know one thing I just want to say about TJ? And it's something that we're constantly talking about. I don't know if it's a masculine quality that he has, which is just—

Tommy: I'm currently flexing.

Josh: Yeah, he's flexing. He's got a big mouth. Sorry, I'll stop flexing. No, but Tommy just has this— Tommy is kind, thoughtful, and also just can rub me the wrong way in the way he says shit sometimes. And I reckon that it's just, it's, and he's learning over time. This is a 360 review, I thought, given we've got the coach.

Lisa: Should I be taking notes? Yeah.

Josh: No, it's interesting, right? Like Toby says these things where I'm like, I've known him long enough to know what his intentions are and what he's trying to say. But the question or the words that are sometimes used don't necessarily match with the softness. Like he's got this like, harsh, harsh.

Tommy: I'm just being me.

Josh: No, but you know what, I do it.

Lisa: You're very authentic.

Josh: No, but in the sense, but it's interesting with guests and stuff like that because it's like, I think sometimes I feel like I need to preface where I'm like, he actually, what he's saying, he actually really loves you and really.

Tommy: But at least he knows that. I mean, you've seen, you've known me for a long time now.

Josh: But do you know what I'm, do you get that sense? Like having worked with Tommy and all that sort of thing, It's almost like this tough love or unapologetic, not even unapologetic, just this honesty.

Lisa: Well, he's direct. Yeah. He's direct and he has clarity about what he needs and wants. And we laugh a lot, don't we? Yeah, we do. I mean, we've travelled together and been on planes and sat in a monster club.

Josh: Have you been to America yet?

Tommy: No, no, I didn't get that bloody invite.

Josh: America, that would be big. We've got people who listen in America.

Tommy: I think it would have affected me as far as looking to who I am.

Josh: No, but so your question—

Tommy: But your business is—

Lisa: This is what we do. This is what we do.

Tommy: You ask people to look at themselves and say, who am I?

Lisa: Who am I in the world and who do I wanna be? And that kind of breaks down into a few different things. So there's the past storey of us, and I'll come back to your point, Tommy, about the different chapters that we have in life and how do we actually know. But there's where we've been, where we are now, and where we're going. There's something that's always really important for us to look back on the storey and say, well, what do I wanna take from that? What are the learnings? What are the things that I like about myself? What are the things I've done that perhaps I regret that I need to do differently next time? And then there's where am I now? So where am I getting my energy from, my passion from? Am I actually learning stuff? Do I have opportunities to meet new people? You know, whatever your things are, And we also look quite carefully at what people value, you know, so am I living in a way that is aligned with the things that actually really matter to me? And then aspirationally, who do I wanna be? So they're kind of big questions, but we don't tend to go to work each day, do we, and go, hey, hi, shall we get coffee and have a conversation about where you'd like your life to be in 10 years' time?

Josh: Do you think most people's storeys that they've created Do they serve them in a positive way or do you find that the storeys that people are creating work against them?

Lisa: Well, we do self-sabotage a lot, particularly people who are high-performing. You know, they're often very critical of themselves, I find. So the— and we do tend to write a storey that suits us, particularly the one we're telling other people. I think that's human nature. But you know, when you're alone in the bottom of the shower, what's the truth that you're telling yourself? You know, when you go to bed at night and put your head on the pillow, do you like who you are and how you are being with others and the career choices that you've made and how you do relationships? Or is there some stuff that you'd like to be doing better?

Josh: How do you differentiate though, I guess, between— I remember hearing the saying Thoughts aren't facts. So if you're going home and you're in the shower and you think, "My life is shit, these relationships aren't," how do you decipher whether that's an anxiety, self-sabotage, or actually something that needs greater reflection?

Lisa: So the stuff that we think is really important. Can I just stop here and share a little bit of theory for a minute?

Josh: Yeah, great.

Lisa: And if it's boring, you can indicate to me by yawning.

Josh: Tommy will— if we know anything, Tommy will just tell you. He'll just say, "I'll tell you." Yeah.

Tommy: Shut up.

Lisa: You could probably just give me a look. So, I actually— I find this really fascinating. So, do you know if you just think something, it kind of passes through your brain and it goes and it doesn't mean a lot. If you have that same thought 6 times, you actually start to create a pathway in your brain. And the way that our brain works is to look for evidence to make us right, to keep us safe. So if you collect, if you have a series of thoughts and beliefs about yourself that say, I'm not good at that, or people don't respect me for that, or why can't I do that better, you will actually be looking for evidence each day to make that right. Yeah.

Josh: And that's almost like me being critical of myself with Tommy. I see him as this masculine dude who, and so my default is almost like I'm hyper-aware of always looking out for aggression or things like where it's like 1/10 of the time he's doing it. And I guess we do that with everyone, right? It's like—

Lisa: We do. It's like if you're about to buy a new car, all of a sudden you see cars everywhere that you think are beautiful. Or if you're thinking about having a baby, everyone's pregnant, you know, and that's the way that our brain works. And so, what we think is really important. So, a lot of the work that we do in coaching with people is to actually find out what's going on in their head. What are the beliefs that you're really attached to? And it's, I think, really interesting to consider what beliefs do you have that are even yours? A lot of them come from our parents when we're growing up and then in the education system and the world around us. What beliefs do you have that will serve you and help you and support you in creating your own version of success?

Josh: Tommy and I have spoken about fake it before you make it and us feeling a bit uncomfortable with that idea, 'cause it feels like you're not being your true authentic self.

Lisa: Not being authentic, yeah, yeah.

Josh: What's your vibe on fake it till you make it?

Lisa: No, we don't fake it.

Josh: Yeah.

Lisa: We don't fake it. Absolutely do not fake it, but we do trust ourselves and we do give ourselves permission to try out new things as if we know. That's how we build muscle memory. So it's absolutely okay to, you know, often people will talk to me about, I'd love to be a speaker, I'd love to learn to be able to present and share my story. So, you know, you have to step on stage and do the hours. You have to build the muscle memory and how it feels to stand in front of people, how to read the room. So we don't fake it, but we have to step in and do it, like, and trust ourselves that we can.

Tommy: It's that imposter syndrome.

Lisa: Oh yeah.

Tommy: Do you experience that?

Lisa: Yeah, of course. Of course. I'll share something with you that I haven't said to anyone.

Josh: This is an exclusive.

Lisa: It's an exclusive.

Josh: If we love anything more.

Lisa: Will you pay me extra for this?

Josh: Absolutely. We're gonna pay you as much as Craig paid you for the last—

Lisa: Yeah, that's right. Which would be zero.

Tommy: We'll give you dessert as well as dinner.

Lisa: So I, you know, I have just, I'm actually really, you know, I'm proud of the work that I've done and this business that I've created. I think I haven't messed up my children too much.

Tommy: They're great. Your kids are awesome.

Lisa: Thank you, Tommy. They're pretty good. You know, I have beautiful friends. There's a lot in my life that is super cool. I've just written a book and it's terrifying.

Josh: Yeah.

Lisa: It's actually terrifying. And there are some really generous, supportive people out there who are buying the book. And I've got this app on my phone and a little, it just pops up on my phone each time someone's ordered.

Tommy: Cha-ching.

Josh: Cha-ching.

Lisa: But that's not what I think, Tommy. Like the imposter syndrome stuff is I go, oh God, I hope they like it. I should offer them a refund in case they don't. I have poured my heart and soul into this and worked so hard on it.. And there is of course this part of me that is a little bit kind of terrified. And who am I to think that I can— do I get to call myself an author now? You know, like, I think we all have that, that feeling of wanting to have, you know, purpose and credibility. And we want people to be proud of us. And in fact, I think lots of us even measure part of our success on that, you know, how other people talk about us. Which is essentially our brand. So I had not considered, and you just don't know what you don't know, right? Have you heard that saying? I like that one a lot. We really don't know what we don't know. And so I just thought I'd write a book and that would be fun and maybe someone would publish it. And I hadn't actually considered for a moment that it would get reviewed. What? What? Like there are actually people who are going to read this and review it, and what if they write something that makes me cry.

Josh: Yeah.

Lisa: You know.

Tommy: Josh got called a soy boy on the internet. I was like—

Lisa: I heard. Yeah.

Josh: Yeah. Trolls. I mean, I think that the— And I guess one of the mechanisms that can be used is realising why you're doing, like what that metric is. And so, reviews, like I guess the thing with, say, the Daily Talk Show using that as an example, it's like we're saying all these things every single day and we know, like, We're self-critical of what we're doing, but it's almost like you can't ever use the external— I find that you can't use that external comments. Like, it's— you've got to be as detached to the positive stuff so that when the negative ones come in— this is how I cope with it anyway. So, when the negative ones come in, I'm already detached that whole thing. I realise that they're saying one part. If someone says something positive, I'm like, they saw this one part which was positive, and I realise that I've still got a lot to to do, and when someone says something negative, I'm like, yes, there was probably that negative, but they're saying this one part. But I think, yeah, it's a—

Lisa: There's a complexity in this though, right? Because when we look at social media and this type of forum, I think it's an important filter we put on, you know what you're talking about. We cannot measure our own identity or our own success how we feel about ourselves necessarily by what people comment, right? But out in the real world where you are running a business, you are actually— I am. My business depends on what people say and feel about when they're in a room with me, and that, that's how I need to be able to pay my team and send out and distribute invoices. And, you know, so actually what people think and the commentary that they will they have about what you've shared, taught, learned, led them on is really important.

Josh: Yeah, and it's even talking about that, say, am I an author, am I this, am I that? There's, there's an element of me which is like, I don't, I'm not anything, like I, I don't want to put a label. But when you talk about brand, to be able to actually sell yourself, you need to be able to, uh, say what you are and what you do. How, how have you found that journey? Of describing— what are you laughing at? Is it too much?

Lisa: Well, no, because Tommy's given me feedback on this. Yeah, um, because when we've had conversations about brand before and he's provided me with some thoughts that I don't seem to have an issue in talking about who I am and what I do and my brand. And you know, when you think about things like networking and, you know, often people feel like that's hard and it's— you need to shower afterwards and it's kind of all gross.

Josh: Sitting down.

Lisa: Yeah, sitting down. That's clearly our theme for today. Who knew?

Josh: Sitting down in the shower with Lisa is going to be the title of this episode.

Lisa: Do you know what?

Tommy: I'm actually—

Josh: It's a little clickbaity and it might go on the Daily Mail, but I'm up for it.

Lisa: I'm really, really— I'm getting a visual that I'm not comfortable with. I think, should we just move on from that? I'm really confident that you and I will never be at the bottom of the shower, Josh. So, and also—

Josh: You paid to hear for another exclusive.

Lisa: Yes, that's right. And can I just say at this point, my children might listen to this. So, mummy will not be getting in the shower with Josh.

Tommy: Yeah, without it being filmed. So, you will be on camera if it happens.

Lisa: Stop, stop. So, you know, brand and, and talking to people about who we are, I think we need to get really comfortable with our own story. You know, it's, it's— and there's something about Australian culture that is, you know, particularly tall poppy conservative. When I go to America, I'm so awesome. Yeah, you know, I am hilarious and interesting. You know, in Australia, we, we absolutely expect people to earn their place, and we don't— we expect people to be very humble, don't we?

Josh: Yeah.

Lisa: Don't talk about being too good because that makes you ego-based. And but what we know is really successful people have healthy egos. You know, they do know what they do and who they are.

Tommy: So I've seen you talk in front of hundreds of people, and the main thing I've taken from seeing you speak— and I said to Josh— is that you're very sure on who you are.. And it's almost like refreshing. And that's why it was so polarising for me. Cause I was like, wow, this, you know, is a woman who's standing on stage talking to these ladies and she's super sure. And that's super hard. And that's why what I said, I was worried that you're going to say that I said something aggressive to you or something. No, what I said was you're great at selling yourself.

Lisa: Yes. Yeah. Well, because I don't think of it as selling myself. Right. And I think the, what, Well, what I hope is relatable to people when they're listening to me speak is that I'm sure of myself, but not perfect. There is a whole lot of stuff that I get wrong and need to do better at and still want to learn. And, you know, I think as soon as you set yourself up as an expert, you're in trouble. As soon as you walk onto a stage or into a client meeting with an expectation that you are the person that is going to change everything, bring all the solutions, add all the value, and people should listen, you're setting yourself up to fail. I'm very, very clear when I'm, you know, talking and sharing my storey that there's times when, you know, I get lonely. And being a single mom is, it's a big job, you know? And there's things that make me sad, and there's things that I've tried in the business that perhaps haven't gone as well as I wanted. As I would have thought. And I think, I hope, Tommy, that's part of it. I hope that people relate to the fact that I go, I've just got some stuff to share. You know, some lessons that I've learned.

Tommy: You do definitely communicate with the level of empathy for how hard life can be. And I think it really comes across. Like you're not out there just going, this is how you need to live and this is how your life should be. Which a lot of people are doing.

Lisa: Yeah.

Tommy: And it comes across as—

Lisa: Well, that is aggressive, Josh, when people do that. And people do do that. And this, I don't know, I think there's a shift at the moment around we don't have the connection in our communities that we probably should. And so there is a need for people who— I just find people are responding to stories.

Josh: Authenticity.

Lisa: Authenticity.

Josh: I think it's also, The most confident people I know, confidence is about being confident in your story, the good and the bad. And so, the— there's a fake confidence, I guess, that's been a thing where it's like, this is the highlight, like everyone's got their highlight reel now. They've got Instagram for that.

Lisa: Yes. Yeah.

Josh: And so, I think that, yeah, people are seeking something greater. Which is, and that's why I think that in startup land, you know, fail fast is this, you know, big exciting thing now. It's like there is a celebration in screwing up.

Lisa: Yeah.

Josh: And realising that to get to some level of success, you need to trip over 100 times. And we're almost, you know, they talk about like within the startup world, they talk about hockey stick growth. And if something goes up too fast, that's now like not a great thing. 'Cause if it goes up really fast, it might, come down.

Tommy: So it's—

Josh: Yeah, it's—

Tommy: Well, I think it comes back to you're in a time now where being honest about your storey will have the greatest connection.

Lisa: I hope so. And I, you know, as a— I'm just thinking, you know, what are the things that people connect to? And there's a whole lot of, you know, theory and knowledge, and we do a lot of stuff around leadership and But the things that people remember are how they kind of feel in the moment and the stuff that relates to them in their story. So we all have a lens that we put on stuff when we hear it. I could share the same storey with you and anyone who might listen to this, maybe 2 or 3 people. You know— And that's just us. And that's just us. And I'll get my children and I think there's someone in France.

Tommy: Amy, Bree, 7, 8 kids.

Josh: Can they all do it on separate internet connections? This really helps.

Lisa: 'Cause we need that to look good. You know, the stuff that people remember is actually the things that fit with them that they can apply and maybe think about how that works. So, you know, Tommy, you've heard some of my dating stories. You know, like dating is, I mean, gee, we could do it. We should do a podcast on that. We should, yeah.

Josh: We could, yeah, a whole podcast, Dating with Lisa or whatever.

Lisa: Yeah, no, it wouldn't be called that.

Josh: Dating with Lisa.

Lisa: But you know, people—

Josh: I was gonna make a shower joke, but move on.

Tommy: I want a tattoo, Josh, don't worry.

Lisa: I have listened to some of your podcasts and there is a bit of a theme here because you did once talk about someone in a sauna.

Josh: Oh, I thought you were going to talk about the squeegee. Me too.

Tommy: She's laughing, but she doesn't know what it's about.

Lisa: I'm just laughing that you're laughing. No, I feel like I don't want to know actually.

Josh: No, you don't want to know. I was 14. So, oh.

Tommy: Anyway, curious, very curious.

Lisa: So, moving on. So, we all have a chapter in our story.

Josh: And you know.

Lisa: Some people forget. Yeah, yeah. And some we put to the side and say, let's learn from that and move on to the next one. So Tommy, I'm interested, you know, you mentioned earlier, how do you know if this is your thing, right? How do you know?

Josh: You're very good at closing the loop, by the way.

Tommy: This is great, we need to go over every episode to close every loop.

Josh: This is great.

Lisa: Well, I think that's a really common thing that happens for people is that at different stages in their life, they wonder, oh gosh, is this the deal? You know, is this the career path, is this the marriage, is this the relationship, is this, you know, the body that I'm going to have, is that all the study I'm going to do, and how do I know if I found my thing, you know, where my strengths are? So interesting that you would say that when you're clearly, you know, really passionate about what you do and you get to tap into all that creative stuff that you love to do. But so how do we know? And I think one of the greatest challenges for people now is that we are all so busy. And a lot of us are living life in a way that is kind of mapped, and I'm getting through each day, and I'm doing a bit of survival, and I'm trying to fit in some friends.

Josh: And then we die.

Tommy: And then—

Lisa: It's horrible. Well, that sounded quite dramatic.

Josh: It's true though.

Lisa: No, no, it's true.

Josh: We're literally like, we're just gonna—

Lisa: And you wake up and it's 5 years later, right? So at what most of us actually require a trigger.

Josh: Yeah.

Lisa: Well, you don't— did that sound like I said you wake up after you've died?

Josh: I did, but I didn't want to bring it up. No, so yeah, the trigger— I heard someone talk about the crucible moment. You need that crucible moment where it's like shit's rock bottom.

Lisa: Yeah.

Josh: To be able to then say, okay, that's when you get the most amount of clarity.

Lisa: Yes.

Josh: Do you think you can— can you hack a rock bottom?

Lisa: Well, yes, I think you can. And I think that's a really important question. And that was actually my trigger for starting to write. Because what I learnt about myself was if my life had stayed on the same path, then let's assume I would have still been married to that person and I would have had this many children and I would have had that kind of career. And so when all of that fell apart and one day you wake up and you don't have a husband and you don't have a house and you've never considered that this might be the life you now have to live, you have to find a way. And I'm honestly like, I'm not alone in that. You know, most people, I would say, let's make up a number so we sound credible. Let's call it 96% of people. Yeah, Tommy, do you like that?

Josh: Yeah, 96% of people off making shit up. You could see he got a twinkle in his eye.

Tommy: Yeah, I like committing to something.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: And so in the conversation, don't take it away from the story.

Lisa: 96%. Let's just put in a legal disclaimer. Disclaimer here, but 96% of people—

Tommy: it's actually in the show notes of our podcast— anything said here is probably not fact.

Josh: We're actually— if we ever got sued, I would be rapt because it means people are listening, you know what I mean? Like, I was talking to—

Lisa: maybe you want to take that back. I mean, that might not go so well for your family.

Josh: They can have it.

Lisa: Yeah, that's true. Okay, so 96% of people people in the world at some point in their life have crisis. Someone they really care about gets sick. Did you just laugh when I said that?

Josh: I laughed because I was like, fuck, 96, that's a huge number. I realised you'd just made it up.

Lisa: Sorry, were you not listening when we just had that?

Josh: I was listening, but it just, I had detached from that moment and I was in the moment again.

Lisa: Okay, would you like a different number?

Tommy: 99.999, because if you don't have some crisis in your life.

Josh: He's a full cowboy, isn't he? He's like, nah, you know what?

Lisa: He's going hard now, he's going hard.

Josh: Don't ask Tommy to talk numbers.

Lisa: I mean, who gets through life without something happening that requires you to stop right there and go, what? I'm not gonna swear, but you can.

Josh: Only 4% would.

Lisa: And then 10% of people in that go, well, I'm gonna get stuck here because I don't have the skill or the resources to know what to do in this situation. And then another 10%, let's just keep rolling with the made-up numbers. Go, "I actually see opportunity in this." And then you'll have a percentage of that population who will actually take time to process what's happened and have to learn some new stuff. But think about storeys where you see a dad who like lifts a car off his child and he didn't know he was that strong, right? So can we hack that? Yes. You know, it's being a grown-up. Tommy, Tommy, stop it. Can we edit that? No, there's no editing.

Josh: We don't edit anything.

Lisa: So how do we do something that says, you know, if I want more, if I want something to be more or less in my life, if there's something I want to stop doing, if I want to start something new, then am I prepared to do the work to make that happen?

Josh: Is this whole industry too individualistic? Is it all too me, me, me, ambition, that sort of thing? Like, how do you find— how do you get— is ambition a good thing?

Lisa: I don't think it is too me, me, me. I actually don't think we do that enough. So, one of the things that I talk to people about is make yourself your most important project. That's not permission to be totally self-focused. List. But if you think about what a project is, it means I set deadlines, I have vision for success, I create goals, I might go and speak with some experts or consult some people around things that I might need to know, learn, or understand. And I think we spend a lot of our time just getting through each day, ticking off our to-do list, and that's not because we don't care, but because we're in an environment where we are churning stuff out and expectations are so high about what needs to be delivered. People who are, you know, lots of people are juggling parenthood and working and trying to fit in exercise. I don't think we do enough to do the me, me, me stuff. Yeah.

Tommy: How much, and this is for me personally, I find it difficult to look inside and work out what do I want, even though I know I want you know, money to be able to have my family comfortable, but I still find it hard to get it out of my head onto the page. I'm sure you've dealt with a lot of these people. What's the block there? Why do we find it so challenging to look inside?

Lisa: I think there's lots of things. Sometimes it's because we don't value ourselves enough, we don't think we deserve that time. Sometimes it's actually about not knowing how to You know, we haven't had that conversation with ourselves or no one's asked those questions of us before. And also, we just don't, we don't know what we don't know. So, you know, that's where working with a coach or finding a mentor, you know, or a leader in your community works really well to have someone have that conversation with you. But I know someone, Tommy, who could do that with you. Her name's Lisa. Oh yeah. Yeah, she's a coach. She's awesome. Yeah, you should call her.

Josh: The working with the team then. So, if you take— Does this— Can you just transplant this approach for individual growth? And if every individual does it within a team, will you have success? Or what is the extra bit of glue to get teams working well together?

Lisa: Oh, that's a big question. Well, for starters, they have to want to. And they have to have a shared vision and they have to be prepared to work with each other and be resilient and have tension in that. And I think we, at the moment, I think we spend a lot of time talking about how do we be happy and how do we, you know, and we forget the value in people being really robust with each other and learning from each other. We talk a lot about respect. Have you noticed that? Being respectful and— You know, it's a really big word at the moment. We've got diversity, we've got all kinds of things happening at the moment. How's Roseanne Barr, by the way?

Josh: I don't know anything. What's—

Tommy: She did some racist tweets and her show got cancelled.

Josh: Oh, that's the one. Yeah, I'm not good when it comes to topical stuff, but I did see that. Yeah, it was on Twitter. She tweeted something.

Lisa: Yeah, it was a sleeping tablet though.

Tommy: Was it?

Lisa: She said, yeah.

Josh: The sleeping tablet.

Lisa: Yeah, the sleeping tablet.

Josh: It's annoying when they tweet. Doesn't it?

Tommy: I'm just trying to know your passcode.

Lisa: Who we shan't— will not mention, actually did release a statement saying that making racist comments is not a known side effect of the medication that they provide.

Tommy: I think that's a good marketing.

Josh: That is really good.

Lisa: Yeah.

Josh: It sounds like something like Oreos would do or something. It's like a whole campaign. They're really good with marketing.

Tommy: I mean, Oreos will kill you too if you eat enough of them.

Josh: So, sure. There's our first legal case if you've ever heard one. No. So, yeah, working in teams.

Lisa: Yeah. Yeah. So—

Josh: So, you're talking about there's all this discussion around respect.

Lisa: Yeah.

Josh: And—

Lisa: And respect is not meant to be warm and fluffy and be about laughter, you know. Respect should be about understanding each person's uniqueness and what they're bringing and the strengths. And I think we get really sensitive about the things that people say, and I don't mean disrespectful things or things that are deliberately harmful to someone or divisive. But really healthy, high-performing teams actually strongly disagree with each other about things. They ask questions that they haven't thought of before. They challenge each other and they have a really clear shared vision about where they're heading and what success will look like. They've had that discussion and they've mapped it out.

Josh: Judge of character and working out, so—

Lisa: I don't judge people.

Josh: Yeah. So, that's what— No, what I'm curious about is that, You know, there's, there's people that will say, I'm a really good judge of character, and they, they'll use it as a mechanism to be— say, you know, everyone's a bit screwed up, or I don't like anyone that they've got an issue with. It's like, I've got to judge a character. Don't— I'm a good judge of character, don't feel good about them. How well do you think we generally do at identifying other people's flaws and what they're like and the storey that we apply on others? Do you think we're better than the people themselves themselves in understanding that? Or do you think, 'cause I feel like I can paint a picture and I pick myself up doing it all the time and telling Tommy, I'm like, "That person's projecting because of this, because when they were a kid, this probably happened and they were bullied and they had that." When did you finish your psychology degree? Exactly, it's ongoing.

Tommy: He listens to podcasts.

Josh: Yeah, exactly, audiobooks. Anyone heard of audiobooks? School of audiobooks. Yeah, so I realized, but I think that It's not an uncommon trait for people to think that they've worked all these people out.

Lisa: Yeah.

Josh: What's your approach? Yeah.

Lisa: Well, I'm— I think we're all really good at judging others, actually, because we learn from a young age. You know, we learn from a really young age. I'm particularly, and I probably shouldn't admit this, but this is me being authentic. Is that okay?

Josh: This is great. Another exclusive for The Daily Dose.

Lisa: Another exclusive. Sitting at the airport.

Josh: Yeah.

Lisa: Oh, I make all kinds of assumptions and storeys and about, you know, what people are wearing and where they're going and, you know, why those people are sad. And I can actually cry watching people at the airport. I get so involved.

Josh: Could you imagine the storey they're telling about you? Just like, she's looking at, yeah, she's still looking.

Tommy: She's crying now.

Josh: She's crying.

Lisa: She's potentially a stalker, honey.

Tommy: There's a level of fun in it.

Lisa: It becomes a game. We all, yeah. Have you played that game in a restaurant?

Tommy: I definitely have. Yeah, definitely. And I think Josh and I, we've talked about this and you've identified that game as being a bit toxic for you. And I even have fueled that game by saying, Josh, what do you reckon about what's going on here with this?

Lisa: He's such a good friend.

Tommy: 'Cause then you get into it. I'm like, oh, I get a bit excited.

Josh: I'll be like, oh, that waiter seems a bit off today, what's happening? I'm like, they're definitely fighting with the barista because you can see their body language, that sort of deal.

Lisa: Right, okay. Let's have a conversation about this off air, Josh. You and I together.

Tommy: So that's not your approach?

Lisa: No, absolutely not. I mean, the instinct thing is valid. The instinct that we get when we meet people is valid, but our ability to connect, build rapport, build trust is actually more about how we ask good questions, how well we can listen. We, most of the time, we do not know what someone's storey is. And so when I'm walking around out in the world, that's kind of a checkpoint for me to say that person has a storey that I don't know. And what did they get up to this morning?

Josh: So what's that next? So you asked that question.

Lisa: Yeah.

Josh: Then my next thing is they probably had Weet-Bix. Do you not go that far? Do you?

Lisa: Really?

Josh: Yeah, well, I just—

Lisa: No, I don't. I do more of a question.

Josh: So you ask the question, but you don't necessarily answer it for yourself.

Lisa: I don't think we have a right to answer it. No, Josh, no. I think it's good to be curious about people. It's— and I think it's human nature to wonder who's around us, and that's actually how we learn, by observing from others, you know. But what I absolutely know from the work that I've done is that people have a whole lot of experiences, values, beliefs, thoughts, ideas, that we never get to hear. We all have, you know, just to get a little bit technical for a minute, we all have these different parts to our self-awareness and we all have a hidden self, which is the stuff that we don't tell people.

Josh: Yeah. Tommy and I were talking a couple of days ago about therapists, psychologists, all that sort of thing.

Tommy: Tell Lisa your sort of view on why you haven't gone.

Josh: The reason I haven't gone is because there's a feeling that through self-development, through all the audiobooks and that sort of thing, I know, like I can see the things that are happening, I can see my flaws or whatever. So, if I can identify them, I don't feel like I— I worry that, okay, a therapist is just another person who has a bunch of flaws, who has an opinion, which is based on not only their work not only the study that they've done, but also where they grew, like as much as they tried not to, where they grew up, what they've done, what their parents believe in, like that still sort of comes through. What are you smiling at?

Tommy: Lisa's smiling at me, I'm smiling. But what I was thinking is like, this is so quick for you in your head. You know, like the way you articulate it back to us takes time, but you're so quick, you're such a quick thinker. Is it serving him or is it—

Lisa: Two coffees, two coffees. No, no, no, it's not the coffees actually. And I think it would be good for you to go and have a chat with someone.

Josh: Actually, I had a sleeping pill before I got here. Sleeping pills.

Lisa: Is that a Roseanne reference?

Tommy: Yeah, exactly.

Lisa: Okay, so—

Josh: Is that a Roseanne? Of course it's a Roseanne reference.

Lisa: Yeah, yeah, I'm just making sure.

Tommy: She wasn't sure if it was the Oreo reference or the Roseanne reference.

Josh: Okay, you're closing, you're literally closing every loop. It's great, it's great. She's keeping us in town.

Lisa: So Josh, here's the thing. Have you ever heard someone say, "Oh geez, I regret working on myself"? It wasn't a real question.

Josh: Okay, sure, rhetorical. I'm not used to rhetorical questions. No, I think that there is something, you know, we overthinking. There is a certain interesting language and especially working closer and closer with Tommy, which is like, there is something detrimental in allowing yourself to think too much or give something too much energy in the sense of, like, we're talking about even self-development and all that sort of things. Some of the times where I'm actually happiest is when I go outside myself, when I actually consider other people and do things and service and all that sort of stuff. And so I wonder whether I'm like, you know, every audiobook I listen to has some sort of question or thoughts around that's constantly internally getting me to ask those questions of myself. And so, I feel like the missing bit or the thing that I actually need is to maybe not go in a room and talk about myself and think about myself, but to actually thinking about other people.

Lisa: Hmm. So, that's interesting. And there's something really, really valid about what we get personally when we give to others. You know, I love— I actually love listening to you talk about that, and I think we all have a role to do that for ourselves and for the community that we live in.

Josh: But it's a paradox, right? It's this idea that, hang on, I'm gonna— it's like that idea of exercise. Wait, you go to the gym, but then you get more energy? Wait, how does that work? Like I'm giving energy and so it's the same thing.

Lisa: By giving to others, it does give to us. But here's the thing, you are constantly evolving and your storey has lots of different chapters in it. And I think there's, and I don't mean for this to sound harsh, but I think there's—

Josh: Tommy does it every day.

Tommy: He shonks harsh on everybody.

Lisa: I think there's kind of an arrogance in thinking that we can work everything out for ourselves. Yeah, absolutely. If you think about the different roles of people who can help us to evolve evolve. You know, if you go to a coach, their job is to ask you questions and trust that you know yourself best, and you— and to help you work out what you want your agenda to be, what solutions, what you need to work on. So coaching where you are right now would be awesome for you because you could work through and be challenged on your own beliefs and, and do that work. But then if you go to a mentor Well, a mentor is going to nurture you and share wisdom and advice, and if you don't go and have that conversation, you never get to hear those stories. A psychologist will do that deeper work on you and help you anchor feelings and, you know, do a whole range of different things, which is different to what a psychiatrist or a teacher— you know, the roles that teachers play. So I, I think I'm really up for new experiences and I would like to set you the challenge right here to, and I know some amazing people, why don't you go and have a session with a psychologist and have a conversation? Because the thing is you're a grownup, right? So if you have that experience and go, I got nothing out of that.

Josh: It's still, yeah, it's like the same reason why I would sit through a shit movie is because by the end of it, I'll know what I, I'll still learn stuff about it.

Tommy: Not 'cause you paid $20 for the—

Josh: What about the scale of the— one thing that I've been thinking about is the scalability of these types of things. So mentorship, for instance, content. So the content that you're creating, the book— what is the title of the new book, by the way?

Lisa: So my book is Read Me First.

Josh: Read Me First. And so can people actually buy it, right? They can buy it right now.

Lisa: They can.

Tommy: I'll take care of this. Readmefirst.com.au.

Lisa: Oh, thanks, Tommy.

Josh: Amazing. Yeah.

Lisa: Leslie's gonna love it. She will. Book in book. Bookstores in August, like actually real.

Tommy: But you can preorder now.

Lisa: But you can preorder now.

Josh: And so, what I'm interested in is content and all of the things that are available to us now. Can they, how can they fit within all of this context? So, what does someone get as an individual speaking to you versus you going up and speaking to 200 people? And do you think there's a really clear distinction of when you said this is an individual problem that needs to be worked on a one-on-one level versus I can go on to masterclass.com and have what it feels like a mentor experience with some of the greatest people in the world?

Lisa: I think both are really valid experiences and give you different things, to be honest. The value of having one-on-one dedicated conversation about what's happening for you is, is can't be replaced by anything else. If you can find an amazing mentor that can ask you great questions, and people mentor because they get back to your point earlier, right? When I mentor someone, I'm investing in someone else, getting to share some of my wisdom. And often mentors say that they learn something from You know, I heard a storey recently about someone who is deliberately mentoring, mutual mentoring 20-year-olds. He's in his late 40s because they're teaching him things. So, they spend half an hour on him and then half an hour on the person he's mentoring. And so, the big room stuff is super cool because you get lots of energy, you get different stories. What I love about group environments is Q&A. Because other people will ask questions that someone else might not have thought of. So, you get to—

Josh: Is that a better business model? Like talking purely business point of view, is there more coin in doing the big stuff versus the coach stuff? Well, so—

Lisa: Like, purely from a business. So, yeah.

Josh: Yeah.

Lisa: I mean, when you're in a room with 1,000 people and you're being paid a rate as a speaker, It's an hour of your time compared to an hour one-on-one coaching someone. You absolutely are looking at more profit when you're dealing with more people. But of course, that's balanced out with what's the stuff. Like at my core, I'm a coach. Like when you put me in a room with someone and I have the privilege of working with that person on things that they've maybe never said out loud to someone else, or on something that is their dream, and you get to be the person that facilitates that thinking for them.

Josh: It's a deep connection.

Lisa: That is super cool.

Tommy: So that seems like more of your driver than financial.

Lisa: Absolutely.

Tommy: And Craig Harper is one of the things he says, if I had the opportunity to speak for $10,000 to 100 people or 10,000 people for $0, he'll go $0, 10,000 people because of the impact you can have. I see that as a driver of him. Do you think it's why you've found a level of success is because you're coming from that, that want to connect?

Lisa: I hope so. I hope so. I really do want to connect and I do want to share. And I don't just mean connect to me. I love connecting other people as well. You know, like when I meet people, I think, oh, they would really add value to that person's business, or they would have a great time having a wine together, or I love just connecting people for no reason. And it is a driver for me to, I don't know, I don't wanna sound too wanky, but I really, I love the feeling that comes with knowing that most days I get to make a difference for people. And as a coach, you never get credit, right? Because it's often confidential, it's not it actually has nothing to do with us. If someone is highly successful as a result of the work they do in coaching, you never hear about us. And if they don't do anything differently, you don't hear about us either. So you get to have this—

Tommy: It's probably a good thing.

Lisa: Yeah, that's good for business. But you, you have this enormous pride in watching people go out and do the work on themselves, and that you can't put money on that. You know, the storeys that I have, and there's not too many days where my phone wouldn't ring with someone to say, "Hey, Lise, you know, I've lost that 5 kilos," or "I've set up that business," or "I got pregnant," or "I've left that relationship," or "I was courageous enough to propose," or "I'm doing that study." You know, like every day I get those calls, and that's all about them because they did the work.

Josh: What about like with the coaching industry specifically? There's a bunch of cowboys offering.

Lisa: Oh, is there?

Josh: Yeah, doing that.

Lisa: Really?

Josh: Yeah, doing, you know, the 6-figure, you know, do this, you know, follow this course and you'll be able to be making 6 figures, you know, selling coaching and stuff like that. How do we define coaching? How do you work out what is good coaching versus snake oil.

Lisa: Yeah. Snake oil.

Tommy: Wow.

Lisa: That's such a random thing to compare it to.

Josh: Have you not heard of snake oil? The old snake oil sales? Well, because the thing is that I think that a lot, like, if you're 21, if you're 21 and you're a life coach.

Lisa: That's probably not a good idea.

Josh: Alarm bells. Snake oil is probably— I'm actually going to add that into my—

Lisa: I need to find a way to use that today. Conversation, snake oil. Yeah, look, and the tricky thing about this is that being a really great coach is not necessarily about a qualification. People very rarely ask me about qualifications, which is lucky. No, people rarely do because what you're bringing is experience. I can't coach someone around leadership if I haven't done leadership. So I've had to do the big jobs, right? So there is something that's about age and experience. Yes, there's absolutely study you can do, but how do you find someone? The industry is actually pretty small. You know, I'd ask a lot of questions and get a recommendation because we all know who we are, and the ones that are the cowboys, all you have to do is pick up the phone and ring a coach and they'll be able to tell you. But also just be aware that there are people who call themselves coaches that actually aren't. Consultants, you know.

Josh: What's the difference?

Lisa: So a coach, a purist coach, is just going to ask you questions and never provide you with advice. So when I'm coaching a client, I will say, and what's a different way you could have handled that? And what don't you think you've thought of yet? And if you were going to go out and try a different strategy, what do you think you might do? So purist coaching is very much about empowering you to come up with your own solutions. We trust that if you've done the work yourself on working out what it is you need to do, you're far more likely to implement. Whereas a consultant is— their job is to come in and provide information, provide frameworks, bring a level of expertise to the room. So you have people out there who are business consultants that will call themselves a business coach, But it's quite a different thing. So the challenge for the people you're talking about is probably to work out what it is they actually need.

Josh: Yeah, sure.

Tommy: So it's maybe being aware of if someone's offering up advice versus asking questions.

Lisa: Yes.

Tommy: Because I think there's a lot of people that are— everyone's coaching advice, they're giving or yelling and even yelling advice.

Lisa: Yelling.

Josh: I love yelling.

Tommy: More impact if you yell.

Lisa: Or just telling people what to do, that often works well.

Josh: Yeah.

Lisa: Just tell them.

Josh: Lisa, thanks for allowing us into your home to chat about ranting.

Lisa: I'd love to say it was fun. No, that was fun.

Josh: That was fun.

Tommy: Is this your first podcast?

Lisa: This is my first podcast.

Tommy: Well, we feel privileged.

Josh: Yeah. What's the vibe on it? I like to, Tommy always gets annoyed 'cause I deconstruct things on the air, but what'd you think?

Lisa: Are you asking for feedback now?

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: Coaching session starts now.

Josh: Yeah, what's the, I just saw she pressed the button. Button on some sort of— Yeah, we don't lose it going up. Yeah, this is faster than picture.

Lisa: Do you know what? You guys are great and I love what you're doing and the world actually needs more of just the good conversation and the humour and people being prepared to listen to each other. And I actually feel really grateful that you asked me and it has been fun and you are good guys. And in a world where there's crappy things that happen every day, It's actually really nice to sit at a table with you and hang out with you. So, thanks for having me.

Josh: Thanks so much. No problem.

Tommy: Your book, readmefirst.com.au is where you are.

Josh: And you're on the Gram as well. On Instagram.

Lisa: Can we just say that Instagram is a different name?

Josh: Yeah, sure.

Tommy: Yeah.

Lisa: So, Insta— No, you go the same way.

Josh: Can I get— Who is it? Who am I? Project?

Lisa: With an S on the end. So Instagram is @whoamiprojects and the book is Read Me First.

Josh: Awesome.

Lisa: Yeah.

Josh: It's The Daily Talk Show, everyone.

Lisa: You guys rock.

Josh: Send us an email, hi@thedailytalkshow.com. The difference with, I think, what we're trying to do with this podcast is not just having people on as once-off guests, but having friends of the show that pop up, like we sort of get you back. And I think that would be really cool in the sense of if people do have thoughts or questions around it or feedback, I think it would be cool to, um, we're slowly collating all of this stuff which we can, you know, have Craig back on, have you back on, and actually have this as a conversation that's beyond just us speaking, but it's involving everyone.

Tommy: So, and we love free coaching.

Josh: Yeah, exactly. And the clock stops now. Thanks everyone. Uh, hi@thedailytalkshow.com. And we do have a PO Box too, so we're legit PO Box 400, Abbotsford, Victoria 3067. Please send me something because it's just costing money. Bye.