Mental health

Josh: It's the Daily Talk Show. I'm Josh Janson.

Tommy: I'm Tommy Jackett. That was a fucking— that was a weird way of you saying your name.

Josh: Really?

Tommy: I'm still just getting used to this whole thing. What I realised though is that we—

Josh: this is a conversation sometimes worth recording.

Tommy: And it is confirmed Josh is a robot.

Josh: If I was a robot, I wouldn't have let you, uh, yeah, do a little bit in between.

Tommy: No, you've been— you've been slightly programmed to be human.

Josh: What was the word that you were trying to say then?

Tommy: Tamed.

Josh: Okay, you've been— yeah, I think they're tamed.

Tommy: No, no, no, but I was just thinking as you started talking, I was half picking my nose and looking down, and I look really weird where I'm sitting. But I was thinking, we are going to start filming these at some point.

Josh: Yeah, we'll have to pick up our game, how we look.

Tommy: Pick up our game.

Josh: I mean, I've got like the worst neck beard.

Tommy: You need to shave that. You're like a gorilla. Between your chin and your chest.

Josh: It's so bizarre. Someone said to me, you— it's funny when they say, are you growing a beard? Like it's some intentional thing. For me, it's like the equivalent of saying, oh, you're not showering.

Tommy: You're not a manscaping guy. If you just gave it a nice line around the neck, I think it'd look quite good. You're just too lazy.

Josh: I just need to get— just get rid of it completely.

Tommy: No, no, I reckon you look 2 years old when you get rid of your beard. Like, just keep— see how I cut mine underneath.

Josh: The problem is that I make a mess when I do it and it drives Bri insane.

Tommy: Yeah.

Josh: So, and because we're house sitting, I don't want to like clog up drains or some shit.

Tommy: I mean, having the hair add-on for the robot is quite difficult. They don't understand that when you're shaving.

Josh: It's pretty, yeah, the neckbeard's pretty gnarly. What's going on? What's happening?

Tommy: Oh, mate, I'm a bit exhausted from yesterday. We did the podcast late. But all day, like, we had— I was working all day with a friend of mine, and it was just purely around coming up with—

Josh: Kel.

Tommy: Coming up with concepts. Yeah, my friend Kel. We were coming up with concepts for a development of a TV show, and they asked us to come on board to just like basically come up with a whole bunch of different ideas that they could bring into the development phase. But the point being is like we had one day, and I'd, you know, read about what we needed to do before that day, and it was like committing to this creativity within the constraints of, you know, a time period, and we did it, but it fucking drains the life out of you.

Josh: Yeah, I think that that's my preferred method though of doing anything. Like, clients will say to me, ah, hey Josh, no rush on this. That's like the worst possible outcome for me.

Tommy: Yeah.

Josh: Ah, easy. Like, so easy clients, it's a paradox, right? The paradox is that, um, easy clients can be the hardest clients. Yeah, because the easy clients don't necessarily care that much, or they're— they're— whereas I need the fire under my ass to get something done, or at least know that what we're making is important enough that there's some sort of deadline on it.

Tommy: Yeah, yeah, it does. It— we got some good feedback on today, so, you know, because you can walk away from being— from doing something creative and to feel like, oh fuck, did we do it right?

Josh: Very insular because you're spending this day, you lose complete context.

Tommy: You're thinking so much of it, you know, you're so in it and it's hard to step away from it. So yeah, I I am a bit drained, but I'm just gonna— Tonight I'm gonna have a little— Amy's going out with her girlfriend, so I'm gonna have a night in with me little man.

Josh: Is she still doing— Because she was doing like a— It wasn't a book club, it was just a bunch of chicks that used to go to your office.

Tommy: Yeah.

Josh: Is that still a thing?

Tommy: Nah, not a thing anymore.

Josh: What happened?

Tommy: Well, I think it's like when you get on a run, they got some momentum. And what she was doing—

Josh: Can you explain what it is first? It was a book club?

Tommy: It wasn't a book club. It was just—

Josh: Do you say was or wasn't?

Tommy: It wasn't.

Josh: Okay.

Tommy: A specific book club. Club. That wasn't the theme of it. Some weeks they basically went and looked at books, and other weeks they would do arts and crafts and make candles and do— it was, it was like girls getting together for a little community to create and talk and, and do what girls do best, just talk.

Josh: Yeah, just you fucking feel— I think amongst their feelings, if we've learned anything though, that it's not exclusive to, to women. I feel like we're slowly— the thing that I'm discovering with this podcast is the more friends I know who listen to it and even people who I don't necessarily know that well, when I catch up with people and I see them, they're way more willing to open up.

Tommy: Because they know you talk or that you have the podcast.

Josh: Yeah. And I think that's so—

Tommy: That's cool.

Josh: So, I think that there's the, you know, a friend of mine opened up about his brother committing suicide.

Tommy: Wow.

Josh: And Recently to you. Yeah. And so, you know, I think that the conversation, you know, being in a place where you can have these conversations and actually talk about, man, life is a bit fucked.

Tommy: I saw a guy the other day and he said to me something, it fucking scared me a bit. He said, oh, you know, he said something like, I'm, yeah, I've just been hanging on or something.

Josh: I was like, fuck, this is a friend.

Tommy: This is a guy I've known for 10 years. He was— he used to come into the gym that I worked in. He was a young kid at that stage, and then he's kind of, um, from what I can tell, he's maybe had a bit of a hard time over the last couple of years. And, and so we've got that connection of being, you know, young and working at the gym, and he was a member, and, you know. And so anyway, I messaged him today and I said, um, I said something like, you know, hang in there, bro, it's fucking a weird world we live in, you know, finding what you want to do. Sounds like you had a good plan. Yeah. And he wrote back saying, man, I so appreciate that message.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: And I was just, yeah, it's, it's full on.

Josh: The Osher Ginsberg podcast, I remember I was always funny about Osher talking about mental health because it felt like, you know, for whatever reason there's that pushback that I have in which is like, it's maybe that repressive. I don't know if that's the right word, but it's like you almost don't— We don't feel comfortable about people talking about these things.

Tommy: It's stigma.

Josh: Yeah. And I feel like I've gone on a journey of development through listening to Osher's podcast. Like, I think at the beginning I was sort of like, yeah, we get it, but you have— You don't have to really talk about it. And then—

Tommy: It's uncomfortable hearing it, though, isn't it?

Josh: Yeah. And so, but I've come around to, as, you know, I think normal, like there's a part of me which is, I don't know, maybe I was uncomfortable with the idea of normalising this thing or making it define, you know, define you, if that makes sense. So, for instance, I think that I've had the opinion that If I talk, you know, talk about my problems, that it might somehow define who I am. Where I think that what Osher's doing is so important because it actually— him going into details and talking about the, you know, he spoke in a recent episode about beginning of the year, went off his medication. He's gone through psychosis, you know, serious issues, right?. And for me, it was actually this sort of therapy, this weird sort of therapy by proxy where it was sort of like, actually, it's okay. Here you've got someone who's super successful, who is, you know, able to host shows. Maybe basically what I was thinking is maybe I could host The Bachelor one day.

Tommy: Well, fucking Osher Ginsberg would never let his neckbeard get that fucked up. Exactly. But no, it was really.

Josh: Yeah, it's been interesting, um, those hard conversations.

Tommy: Uh, well, it's like with me experiencing at least 10 people in my world killing themselves and you having zero, but me talking to you and us having this and you feeling and seeing me sad is like you gaining an understanding. You don't have to be a drug addict to talk to addicts about how to recover. You just need to be empathy— empathising and understanding what world they're living in. And someone like Osher, it's Talking about what he's going through is actually allowing people to show a bit of empathy because they're connecting to his story, especially if they're fans.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: Because then it's challenging them and they're more open to, you know, being open.

Josh: Yeah, because I think that it's, um, I think normalizing, normalising it is the solution. I think that what I still worry about is there is an element that there's sort of this niche That's all. There's almost like a mental health niche where, that you can sort of, you know, that's the content that you're constantly consuming. And so, I think the biggest concern that I've had is, you know, whilst I've had my own struggles that maybe the talking about it or spending too much time on it would make you more defined. Like that, for you to identify as someone who suffers from a mental illness, or not even, you know, like I've never been to a therapist, never done any of that sort of thing.

Tommy: Is there a reason why you haven't, or you've wanted to, or you just—

Josh: I think that I, I don't know, I think that part of it is, part of it is my feeling that through self-development that I can crack like all these issues that I can crack myself. I think that the realisation over the last few years is that that's not necessarily, like doing it alone doesn't make sense. It doesn't, like why, you know, if you're going to share your life with people, people, you know, like Bri, who I've been to, you know, been with for over 10 years, it's like, well, you Being able to unpack that and being able to say, okay, like, I think that it's almost this habit that we've, a lot of people have created, which is like, I don't talk about X, Y, and Z. And then we have these actions, we do these things, and then we're always, and we wonder like, wow, why did he react that way? Like, what's it? And, but if we'd actually uncovered and said, ah, actually it's because of these things that you're feeling that you're actually not talking about.

Tommy: You know what would piss you off most about going to a therapist is that you have to fucking bring them up to speed. And you'd be like, you know, Amy and I, we've been to couple therapy.

Josh: Just listen to the podcast.

Tommy: I know, you'd be like, guys, this session is, I could have done 3 podcasts in this session.

Josh: So was the therapy, was that like based around, 'cause I know friends who have done it through religion, right? Where it's like you get, if you're a Christian or whatever, you'll get like a pastor who will be assigned to you when you do all that sort of thing before you get married.

Tommy: No, we, when Amy moved to Melbourne and she was finding it tough relocating to a brand new city, no really close friends, me working and she chose not to work. And I think it was a bit insular for her. And then I was focused on this thing and there was the whole thing about really living together, like 8 months into actually living together and discovering a new relationship. So I brought all of my bullshit when she had all of her stuff going on. And to be honest, I don't actually remember what we went for. Like, it was not like, um, I had a porn addiction and we went, you know, like, wasn't that— I mean, that's why we're going now.

Josh: You do have a porn addiction.

Tommy: No, but my point is, I don't even remember it being a big thing, but I remember it did help. We talked about, you know, what annoyed me, and, you know, like, it's just basic.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: And it's just communicating, and it's just within a structured environment. And Amy really appreciated it. I, I, I wouldn't have done it off my own back, but she wanted to, and so I was a part of it, obviously. And I see the— I talked about on this podcast about how I used to go to a psychologist when you're a kid, and I remember crying at it and just— but I remember maybe it is those times that have helped shape me.

Josh: I almost think that I need to Detachment of ego, I think, is a big part of it too. Like, for me, I think that I've almost, uh, you know, Bree's seen a psychologist and stuff, and sometimes I feel like some of her sessions were actually more for me than for her, because afterwards I'd be like, oh, what'd you guys talk about? She's like, oh yeah, so we spoke about you a lot. I'm like, oh yeah, what'd you say? Like, what? How are you?

Tommy: In the sense that they were Fuelling your ego?

Josh: No, no, no. It was proxy. No, in the sense of the— my ego isn't allowing me to go to therapy.

Tommy: Yes.

Josh: Because I'm— because of the stigma attached to it. But I don't apply that judgement to other people who go, only to myself for whatever reason. But the thing I found that was happening is that Bri would go to her psychologist and It was almost like couples therapy, but only she was attending. Where— But the interesting thing is that her psychologist was like, "Oh, if you're— If you wanted to do couples therapy, we wouldn't go to her." Like, apparently, like, if you have them as an individual relationship, you can still have that.

Tommy: Yeah, because she hates you.

Josh: But it was interesting. No, but the funny thing is they write down all, you know, all the names and all that sort of thing. And apparently, The psychologist kept calling me Adam, which is Bree's, you know, brother's name because she's just written down the wrong name.

Tommy: Yeah, they are taking notes. And yeah, I mean, from the ones I've experienced, just caring people who listen. And for me, it didn't feel like some of the time we were going anywhere, but then it kind of does. They've got strategies. They're smarter than us, dude. Like, I think they're smarter than us about strategies of, you know, how your brain works and best practices, because they're outside of you. They're not in your head.

Josh: If I was to deconstruct it even more, I think that part of my reluctance is that when I was 16 or 17, I was working on all these films and it was through a course. And one of the people who I did the course with was a psychiatrist and I got along with her well and talked a lot, and then it ended up being like, I ended up not really liking that relationship in the sense of it felt like it was very much like, here's this young gun editing for her all the time and she's sort of building her empire and stuff. I think that I was like a little bit dismayed by this idea that she was also just this human with a bunch of flaws, and maybe I'm, I think that What? Yeah, there is that little bit which is like, you know, we— How do we know? Like, we're all just people.

Tommy: Yeah.

Josh: And—

Tommy: Yeah, I know.

Josh: Do you know what I mean? So, I'm like, yeah. So, because the thing is that you might even, you know, I remember we, Bri and I went to a— This hotel called Pump House Point, which is in Tasmania. It's on a lake and you can do this— dinner that they can include in the room. And we did that. And you basically, you're sitting on a communal table, which is just a fucking nightmare for me. Like, it's just— This is what the problem is with these places. It's like this communal shit. So, anyway, we ended up sitting with a psychiatrist and a farmer who, it turns out, the farmers, like, you think farmers like, oh, yeah, cool, you're a farmer. Turns out they produce 25% of Australia's cherries. It's a pretty big farming operation. But yeah, the psychiatrist, like, I just feel like I'm sort of almost trying to deconstruct what they're saying and what they're doing. And I think about like, oh, what sort of person do they need to be to desire to be a psychologist or psychiatrist? It's like, I feel like I've heard that saying where it's like people who become psychologists do it because they're a bit tweaked themselves.

Tommy: Yeah, I mean, it's going to be tweaked. Psychologists, psychiatrists, look at the priests, pastors. It doesn't mean you're a pure person just because you pick that, you know, that, that job. But they're here to help. I think from what you're saying is if you were struggling enough, I think you'd probably go. Yeah, I think you see, you'd probably— your ego would be crushed and you would have no option. I think, and it doesn't— and I think the, the whole thing that maybe the stigma is around people who are like you that feel like they don't need to go at that point or they've got those reservations, but maybe that's when you need to go.

Josh: I don't know. Yeah. Yeah, it's hard. I think that like there's so many elements to it. The, like the other part of it is it's like, okay, you know, if this session is going to be $150 or whatever it is, would I be happier if I gave myself every week $150 to spend on Jimmy Grant? Like, would the joy—

Tommy: there's a psychiatrist going, oh, fuck, this guy's fucked up, get him in, get him on some meds.

Josh: No, but if there's the, um, yeah, no, but there is that sort of thing where it's like, are you— if it's just a mindset shift and it's all like, it's an internal journey, isn't it?

Tommy: I think, just sorry to interrupt you, feeling like something's wrong, you're in this waiting room and it's a bit cold, like the room we're in now, My feet, you know, my toes are a bit cold. There's a heater on, I'm trying to get some warmth off it. I feel like I'm at a doctor's surgery.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: So, there's this clinical feel to it where you feel like a naughty little boy or you feel like you've been doing something wrong and you're going in to seek help, which essentially it is because they're helping you in some sense. And that feels confronting.

Josh: Yeah. And I think that the other thing too is I would worry that I was would fall into entertainment mode where I'm telling storeys as a level of entertainment for them, if that makes sense.

Tommy: I know you've got an audience. I don't think you would. I think it's the environment is just so different to what you think. You should go, man. I would like you to go. I mean, it's nice to just open up because I think it's like an exercise. It's like a PT. Some— you train clients in a way—

Josh: I hate PTs.

Tommy: Yeah, but I'm saying if you have a good PT, they'll train you the way you really thrive. And so for you, it might not be getting fluffy. It might be actually talking about how your brain's working because you think a million miles an hour. And so maybe them sort of deconstructing what's going on for you because you're deconstructing everything else, maybe that will work.

Josh: Do you know what I think was interesting about Bree's experience is that Her psychologist is so like matter of fact in the sense of, I just imagine for whatever reason, psychologists being like, oh, you know, how can you improve? Like, what's— But so many times, like Bree would have come out of a session and she was like, yeah, they just said like, fuck them. They sound like they're asshole. Like the psychologist is saying this about the people that Bree's talking about. And so, that was always really interesting is sort of the personalities of the psychologists and the therapists and all that sort of thing.

Tommy: Well, they're humans, man. They're not robots yet. So, imagine if you had a robot just— Yeah, there's no connection. I think half the thing of a psychologist is connecting with the patient as well as informing them and, you know, pulling out the information. Yeah.

Josh: Yeah, it's interesting. The—

Tommy: I'd love a psychologist or psychiatrist to dissect the conversation of this and then just record a little piece for us. Well, to then us play it back.

Josh: And one of my clients is like an organisational psychologist. He deals in, you know, the area of, you know, big corporates and things like that and leadership. I wonder if he's like, Yeah, I, yeah, I wonder around. It feels like there's so many different sort of realms and different versions. But, um, yeah, it's just, it's been on my mind, especially, uh, with Osher talking about it so much, um, and being like, you know, if we can do a little bit to destigmatize and maybe show like, hey, you know, and also social media and stuff It's annoying because it feels like you're beating a dead horse in regards— Is that what you say? Beating a dead horse? I've got an image of me beating a dead horse in my head right now. Is that the phrase that we use? To beat a dead horse?

Tommy: It's the one you're using, so sure.

Josh: Okay. Not to beat a dead horse.

Tommy: Yeah.

Josh: But it's— Social media doesn't help when we're putting up all these highlight reels of our life. I mean, if you look at the move that Bri and I just went on, you'd be like, oh, it looked like it was a bit of fun. Like it was pretty stressful.

Tommy: You're saying it looks like picturesque. It looks— Yeah.

Josh: And we also, we've created this, you know, these little mini worlds that people actually think. And so, it gives these unrealistic expectations to people around what life is meant to be.

Tommy: You're right, because when it's pretty jarring when you look at someone's profile and they're being raw and crying at camera. Because then you think, fuck, are they just looking— is this bullshit? Is this them trying to up their likes or something? Is they trying to connect because they think it will?

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: And so I get it. Yeah, the, the perfect life and then throwing that into it. I mean, that's— yeah, it's honesty. I mean, I don't share much in a personal sense on my social media in terms of my real feelings, more so on this podcast. Yeah, but I feel like it's a medium that you can actually go through the ups and downs of, you know, your life in that long form. Whereas a small little video, if it was just about how I was pretty sad at the moment, it doesn't feel like it would fully— Yeah, I mean, not for me as a creator. I don't know if that's what I want to share. But then again, I'm not battling severe depression, you know, thankfully.

Josh: Do you remember when I wrote the poem a few months ago? I never, never made that video. I did a poem. I can't remember. It was pretty—

Tommy: Amy, and Amy's response was almost like, oh yeah, yeah, it's slightly crazy. I can't even remember the topic.

Josh: I can't remember it either.

Tommy: I think it was just about life.

Josh: I think it was about, yeah, I think it was about something about around struggle or something like that. But it's, um, yeah, I mean, what's your outlet?

Tommy: Because I don't think you're battling that much.

Josh: No, I mean, I think this is the, this was the other thing I've been thinking. So There's the whole thing around Parkinson's Law, which is we fill the time that we allocate to something. And I've been thinking about the concept around busyness or idleness. And when we allow ourselves, when we don't focus on big things, when we don't have a big vision, we start focusing on real small things and we can get like obsessive and like worry all of a sudden. It's all like relative, right? And so, what I've been thinking lately is like I always need a big goal. If I don't have a big goal, then I don't have anything to compare to. So, if all I've got is smaller projects, all of them look way bigger because I don't have a big one to give it perspective. Yeah. So, that's been an interesting thing I've noticed where I'm like, actually, man, this is a— piece of piss, but because it's like the thing that you're working on, you elevate it. And then things like perfectionism starts to like cripple.

Tommy: Yeah. I mean, it's hard life. It's fucking a bit hard sometimes.

Josh: Well, think about like even yesterday with you. Think about the pressure. Like I even felt when you were, when you had that constraint creatively about doing Yesterday. From Friday, I could already feel the anxiety setting in. It's like, Monday's a big one.

Tommy: Like, yeah, you know what it is? It's what I— and I wasn't even feeling anxious about it. Yeah, I knew I only had that time, and so I filled the day with only that time. And you know what it's like having a business, you need it. I almost did a whole bunch of things to make sure that I could push out all the other distractions and clear out my head for that, because it's like, fuck, if I don't have my head space.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: And Amy and I had an argument in the morning, and then I was— ah, and but I had to do it. You know when you could stew on something all day?

Josh: And I was—

Tommy: ah, stew on something.

Josh: What did you say?

Tommy: Strew?

Josh: Strew. Strew. Strew. Beating a dead horse with straw.

Tommy: Yeah, you make strew out of a dead horse that you've just beaten.

Josh: The, um, yeah, I think the other thing too is it's like the, um people problems, trying to communicate and articulate, like, especially, you know, I see the next part of my growth is working with people more effectively. So, I think that—

Tommy: In a, like, a collaboration sense or—

Josh: Yeah. Or just, no, just being able to, I feel like I I just get over people really quickly in the sense of if I don't get, you know, I've had suppliers working on things. It was like the logo or I was getting some other work done from another contractor and I give them the benefit of the doubt at the beginning and I'm just like, yeah, it's all good, all that. And then they just take the piss. And that's what I even wonder about, like how much to pay people. Like what I've noticing over the years is it's like I used to be overly generous in regards to how much I'd pay contractors. I'd be like, oh, look, if I'm making a decent chunk of money, I'm going to pass this on. But then the interesting thing is that there wasn't as much of an attachment from the amount I paid versus how much people would try. Yeah. Yeah.. And so, that's what I find really interesting too, right? Because if you have this idea of like looking after everyone, not everyone works best when you're like looking after them. Yeah.

Tommy: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, but maybe it's you working out where you actually shine. Do you want to get, do you need to get better at working with people? Because if that's the end goal of I want to build a company that has 10 people working directly under me. Because I look at my mate James's business, yeah, you know, he's got it to a point where he's doing the thing that he really likes doing, and that's not directly managing people every single day, you know, like a, a big team. All right guys, today's thing. It's like, maybe that's— I mean, maybe he's done that naturally, but I think if you were to think about what you want to be doing and where, where you bring the most value Maybe it's not dealing with people on a small scale.

Josh: I think that maybe part of it is expecting a level of comprehension of my ideas too early on in the piece. So, I think that like I'll work with a new contractor and I sort of expect that they understand how to do it.

Tommy: Yeah, I've done that before.

Josh: And so, I think that that's the thing that I think that there's an onboarding process that I need to get better at, which is like actually the hard work feel like what I thought the hard work was, which is explaining everything up front versus what I feel like is the way that I would like to be treated, which is like, you know what, I, I'm going to allow them to be autonomous, to, you know, be ambitious without having someone micromanage.

Tommy: But if you would take a task and break it up into multiple tasks, Maybe those smaller tasks don't need any understanding of the big picture. Yeah, so if you're bringing someone on just to do—

Josh: I think it's an even bigger picture. I don't even think it's the vision. I think vision I'm actually okay at. I think the bit that I am good at is it's like getting everyone on board and excited. I think that maybe what I need to work on is the operational level and expectations around Yeah, this is what I expect. These are like just basic things. Like I think about how I shine. It's like I don't like necessarily clients that are too easy. So maybe I don't need to be too easy. Maybe I need to be more, and maybe that's a cop-out. Maybe too easy is actually vague. Yeah.

Tommy: Clear direction for people that aren't invested in it is important.

Josh: Well, you had a work experience kid.

Tommy: Yeah.

Josh: They fucked off. Yeah. Over it. What was the learning? I don't know.

Tommy: I guess that's how you can put it.

Josh: No. Well, so, yeah. What was your big learnings? Like, you know, you invested a few months, you know, with this 16-year-old finished school. Yeah. Yeah. What was the learnings?

Tommy: I experienced a lot of what, you were talking about, because it's going from a single operator, or in terms of a project where you've shot it, you're editing it, if we're talking about our world, and then we're, you know, producing something to show to somebody else. We understand we're taking on everything at the time. Tasking out that and sort of taking the job and then making— breaking it up into a process, and that's what it is. I was— it made me really look at everything as a process. And where can you pull somebody in to that stage of the process. And it is hard, tasking out somebody is hard. And it's a thing in business, I was talking to James, my mate, he said at the start, when he started, had a first person come on for him, it was, yeah, he had to think a lot of what he needed them to do. And that is hard.

Josh: Well, I give a good example, my mate Chris, came and helped us move. And because I didn't have all the boxes packed, what I realised was there was actually nothing that I could get him to do. I was like paralysed where I'm like, um, put— just go put all that stuff in that corner.

Tommy: Yeah.

Josh: It was just such a waste of his time, like, because the thing was that what his What he was going to be good at was picking up a box and placing it in the van. And so, but the idea of me getting him to sort out the things that I was going to keep and get rid of, I couldn't get him to do. So, I think that it's— I think that where it gets hard is that we're trying to do this complex work, we're trying to do creative unique projects, and unfortunately processes don't necessarily allow for that to come out.

Tommy: Yeah, 100%. Creativity sometimes is a process in your head that is hard to explain. Yeah, something's going on.

Josh: Well, it's a journey. I don't think it's like—

Tommy: Yeah, the journey.

Josh: Yeah, yeah. And if it can be— My argument would be if there's— If it can be turned into a process it's not the game that's going to be beneficial for us as an artist, as artists. If we can, if it's something that we can just hand over and say, okay, do X, Y, and Z. So, put the first layer of paint on, then you add the clouds by doing like just tapping it like that and then you're good to go. Like, then it's easily replicable, replicable? You can replicate it. And so, and then it's easily commoditised because anyone, like, then someone can say, okay, well, let's just get a bunch of people who can follow this process and they can go through and paint. And so, that's the— I mean, there's that area in China, I can't remember what it's called. I'm sure a bunch of listeners will know. China. What did you say?

Tommy: China, like Trump. China.

Josh: Okay, I don't know if you can do that. I'm glad that—

Tommy: No, it's not an accent. It's not impersonating a Chinese person.

Josh: That was—

Tommy: He says China.

Josh: China.

Tommy: China.

Josh: Can you put it in a full sentence? What does he say? Because at the moment it's just sounding like a Chinese accent.

Tommy: Does it?

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: Fuck. How can I do this? The—

Josh: Maybe not. No, no, no.

Tommy: I was going to fuck it up. But someone listening going, I've heard Trump say China.

Josh: China. What else does he say? Which is a lot of other stupid shit. He says some pretty funny stuff. Yeah, but there's an area in China where they develop, or where they've got like, there's a town where you can get replicas of any piece of art. And it's all just, you know, and that's the thing, like, that's not what art is. Art is, you know, these unique pieces that aren't easily replicated. Yeah, replicated.

Tommy: Oh, it is a hard one because we want to bring people in, and it's like you, you think growing is by bringing people in to your creative process. But sometimes, like, you— I know you, if I got you on to do a project, yeah, you by yourself, lean, I know you'll create something amazing.

Josh: Well, I'll bring my artistry to it. I think that the, the thing is that what we maybe need to realise is it's like We need to realise what are we hiring this person for? Are they doing something that's just sort of, that's process-driven stuff is probably the easiest way because if it's creative, it probably, it takes months and months and months of learning and building. It's like building this craft thing versus like being on, you know, sort of a line. What is that? What's that called? Yeah, car lines. What are they? Wheel line, wheel alignment, wheel alignment.

Tommy: No, I mean, don't go down the car metaphor.

Josh: Like, if you're making something and— what did Ford introduce? It's not the car line, it's, you know, when a bunch of people are in a factory and they're on a line. Yeah, yeah, what's that called? A factory line.

Tommy: Factory line's good for me. Here's the thing though, we're creatives, and I wonder if we had you know, someone who's a very successful business person and they're all about processes. Well, they're saying that this is bullshit, that you need to find the process within your artistry.

Josh: I mean, it could be a cop-out. I mean, that's the thing, that's the difference between, between, between— at the moment I'm feeling like, how many strokes have you had this episode? A lot. Uh, the difference between having a big 100-person agency and, uh, being a two-person shop. And so, but I think that there's, there's this middle ground that I'm interested in playing in, which is like, okay, maybe you can have the creativity, the artistry, the unique work, and then maybe you can have this other process stuff that, um, instead of playing these two worlds. Because there's a lot of people who go to film school who refuse to do commercial stuff, who end up spending their whole life having to live with housemates and living off ramen because they're not willing to do corporate work.

Tommy: Bro, they ain't living off ramen. That's fucking $17. I had it today.

Josh: Really? That's outrageous.

Tommy: First time ever having it. Expensive.

Josh: Delicious.

Tommy: But I get, I get it's, it's slop in a bowl. That's probably really rude to the Japanese who invented it. Wow.

Josh: You know, we've got a lot of listeners in Japan. Yeah.

Tommy: And I was with some Jap— part Brazilian Japanese dudes having it today. And they said, this isn't authentic. So, ramen in Australia is not your authentic ramen. He says, this is a bit— this is a bit—

Josh: Between the China chat and the Japanese chat, I don't know if we can—

Tommy: No, I want to find you this. This is— I want to find you the— I'm going to text you later this Grab of Trump saying China.

Josh: Okay. My favourite bit is him talking about all of his friends.

Tommy: Yeah, I make friends. My friends, my good friends.

Josh: Yeah, my very, very good friends. Um, all right everyone, it's the Daily Talk Show.

Tommy: Um, if you have any thoughts around what we've been talking about— process, creativity, even mental health. Yeah, if you've had a good experience going to someone like a psychologist, psychiatrist, and you've been in the position of Josh's of feeling like, nah, No way.

Josh: Yeah, there's a part of me which is like, I'm going to fix this through audiobooks. But I've got it from a dark room. I've had about 100 audiobooks so far and it hasn't worked. I'm fine, guys. I'm really fine. It's the Daily Talk Show. Thanks for listening. Thanks for all the positive feedback that we're getting through the emails. Special shout out to Trev, who's constantly on the tweets, and we'll be getting him back on the show very soon. Check out his podcast, EFTM, as well.

Tommy: And Matthew Eggleston.

Josh: Eggo. Eggo gave us a lovely message too, who's been listening. He's a CD, content director in Brisbane and kicking goals. But yeah, if you're— We do like hearing from you. So, it does extend the conversation beyond just Tommy and I to actually people we want to hear from.

Tommy: So, thanks, guys.

Josh: Have a good one.