Women in radio

Mason: It's The Daily Talk Show.

Josh: I'm Josh Janson.

Tommy: I'm Tommy Jackett.

Josh: And this is a conversation sometimes worth recording.

Tommy: It's a fucking good day.

Josh: Yeah, you've got stuff in your teeth. What have you been eating? He's got a mirror just behind him.

Tommy: You know what that is? Have a guess. This is a guessing game.

Josh: Okay, it's, uh, I'm currently smiling really large.

Tommy: It's, uh, you won't get it.

Mason: It's a bit from pesto. You had something with pesto.

Tommy: 2 more guesses.

Mason: It's a seed.

Tommy: No.

Mason: It's avocado, smashed avo. It's a chia seed.

Tommy: You didn't get it.

Mason: What was it?

Tommy: It's seaweed.

Mason: It's dog shit.

Tommy: It's seaweed from sushi.

Josh: Ah, people love seaweed. Just like eating it just is. Yeah. I saw—

Tommy: Stop listening if that's you.

Josh: What I saw on Instagram, Insta story. Who was it? Someone— oh, Stacey June.

Tommy: Was she?

Josh: Yeah, she was, um, on an Insta storey just going, having a bit of a snack, and I'm sure it was— I was like, is that paper?

Tommy: She eats some funky shit. And by saying funky shit, healthy, very progressive food. She would always eat really well when we were working on radio together in Shepparton.

Josh: Yeah, it's so disciplined to be able to to do that.

Tommy: Oh mate, she would prep, but it didn't sit, yeah, she, we should just get her on to talk about what she eats.

Josh: Yeah, we should do that. The, yeah, the food thing, I've got issues in general. I was gonna say with food and I'm like, I've got issues. I'm actually, that sums it up pretty well. I'll just stop there, issues. No, food, fuck. I told myself that I wasn't going to replace um with the F-bomb today and I've already done it.

Tommy: It's because I'm here.

Josh: It's from you, I think I picked it up from you.

Tommy: Yeah.

Josh: You know, working our way to episode 100, we're not stopping swearing, but we're just trying to rein it in a little bit because literally Bri was playing the fridge grab and we dropped the F-bomb 3 times in a matter of 60 seconds on an ad for a fridge. Probably in regards to context, probably not completely necessary. I think you had one, like you said the F-bomb 3 times.

Tommy: Right. So, it was all about that.

Josh: In a hashtag? You know, you created that hashtag.

Tommy: Yeah, that was to really drive home the hashtag as well.

Josh: Yeah, that's good.

Tommy: Because it would be an unusual hashtag to see.

Mason: Yeah.

Josh: No, so the food, lately what I've been doing every morning, getting an almond flat white coffee.

Tommy: We're not even at the food bit yet. Yeah.

Josh: So, that's it. So, I have that in the morning.

Tommy: That's not food, buddy.

Josh: I know, but then I've been, I haven't been eating that healthy in the sense of like not a lot of fibre and stuff like that, but I'm just, I'm basically eating from like 1 o'clock, I have my first meal, 1 PM, and I just, I normally have lunch at like 2 PM and then eat again at like 5 or 6 PM.

Tommy: I just was imagining people almost falling asleep at the wheel of the car listening to this.

Josh: It's been a while since I, if for long listeners of the show, I wanted a segment which was sort of what I've ate, Josh's food diary.

Tommy: Just updating, and it's not even food diary because it, You speak about it, don't write it down. So, it's—

Josh: And I also don't say what I eat.

Tommy: Touching base with Josh's food.

Josh: No, what I've— Do you know my favourite food at the moment or meal? Chimichanga.

Tommy: What is that?

Josh: It's called chimichanga or chimichango. I think chimichanga.

Tommy: I like the name.

Josh: Yeah, it's like an enchilada, but fried.

Tommy: Okay, it's probably not the healthiest thing.

Josh: Yeah, it's not great, but it's got beef in it. So, there's a bit of protein there. That's how it works. So, I've been— Yeah, doing that bit.

Tommy: Mate, you got to take ownership of your food.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: Get your shit together.

Josh: The annoying thing is that I've got enablers all around me. It's like when we saw Jack the other day for episode 90, he's like, man, you're looking great.

Tommy: So, does that mean that you then go off and fucking blow it?

Josh: No, I do the— I just continue what I'm doing.

Mason: Yeah.

Josh: Because I think that it's actually calorically, it's probably okay. Like, it's pretty hard to have 2,500 calories in the, in, you know, 5 hours.

Tommy: So you got a compliment from Jack, but you're not receiving compliments all around at the moment.

Josh: What do you mean?

Tommy: Well, you got trolled.

Josh: Oh, that's for being a, I'll read you the actual comment.

Mason: We need to bring out the actual comment.

Tommy: So this, it went down on YouTube in the comment section and it's gone down in the YouTube comment section for me. I've been trolled, but I'm glad that you're on the receiving end of this one.

Mason: It's the problem with being, going viral. As soon as you go outside outside your friendship group, people are assholes. Alright, mate.

Tommy: The term of viral—

Mason: I mean, I'm using it very loosely. Yes. But when I say viral, it went beyond people that know me.

Tommy: Okay.

Mason: It's pretty loose, isn't it? Pretty loose definition. No. So, Ritwik Singh writes, you're not even trying and you come off as such a soy boy. You introduced me to soy boy. I didn't realise that it was so common, commonplace.

Tommy: I think there's a bit of a movement for the phrase soy boy. The person who told me about soy boy, we were at the service station yesterday and we're buying protein drinks and he said to me, "Oh, wait, hang on, does that have soy milk in it?" So, the idea— I said, "What, are you worried about becoming a soy boy?" Yeah.

Mason: So, it's where it's come from. The one issue with soy boy is it has there is a small amount of negativity around feminine attributes. Correct. So, it's a little—

Josh: It's slightly—

Mason: I think it's funny, but I can also see it as a slur that people actually get behind as something where it's like it's a bit of an anti-femme thing.

Tommy: If you break it down, what a soy boy is.

Josh: We've got the Urban Dictionary thing here.

Mason: Okay. Yes.

Tommy: Perfect.

Mason: Slang used to describe males who completely and utterly lack all necessary masculine qualities. This pathetic state is usually achieved by an overindulgence of emasculating products and/or ideologies. Yes.

Josh: So, it's that idea, like, I think the—

Tommy: When you actually read it out, it's a little bit dark because it's referring to these ideologies of like, you know, that to have masculine traits means that you're this, that and all that sort of thing, which And if we just have it at the surface of what we know it, yeah, and what we found funny about it is that soy milk can slightly increase your oestrogen levels within your body, which if you're a female, that's naturally going on.

Josh: Yeah, it's fine, quite a lot. But man boobs is a real concern.

Tommy: Yeah, so I think, I don't know, it's just, I think when you, if you don't look too deep into it, you're thinking, oh, you're gonna, your voice is gonna be less deep and you're gonna grow some, you know your nipples are going to start pointing out a bit and this all happens.

Josh: Yeah, I, uh, Bree was on some medication for a while just to sort of like neutralise her hormones or whatever and had oestrogen patches. And I woke up and she wears it on her, like on her ass type of thing. Anyway, woke up one day and it stuck to me and I freaked out. I was like, I seriously was like getting a little bit, concerned because I'm like, this isn't just like having a bit of soy milk. This is— I've been micro— like, I've been given a dose of oestrogen.

Tommy: That is so good.

Josh: It's not ideal.

Tommy: If we had doctors administrating it, administering it, would you take a bit of oestrogen?

Mason: I'll do testosterone.

Tommy: If anything, I need a bit of testosterone. Yeah, definitely.

Josh: But the one thing that I— thing with testosterone is the, um, the hair loss, and I'm already worried. I feel like—

Tommy: not worried about severe amounts of testosterone would make your hair go. But you know what we should do for this show? And I know you wanted to get— do some testing before you did some fitness stuff, but it would be cool to get our testosterone levels tested.

Josh: Here we go, now you're on board.

Tommy: Yeah, but I'm more on board just to see what they are and if there is a difference, because you just said I probably need some testosterone.

Josh: Well, I don't think I actually do. I think—

Tommy: is that because I stomp around like a—

Josh: yeah, you're a bit more silverback gorilla. Yeah. You've got that vibe.

Tommy: But you get a lot of hair going on, chest hair, back hair. So my thinking is that there is a fair bit of testosterone being generated out of those nuts of yours.

Josh: Yeah, potentially. But let's test it. How do we test it?

Tommy: You need to go to a doctor.

Josh: Okay.

Tommy: And so if you do have abnormal levels of testosterone, we can get you on some testosterone. You can have it. It'd be quite good.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: And then we'll get into the gym. We get Tommy D to start training you, you'd be a— you'd really start being a superhuman.

Josh: Bulking it up and get a bit angry.

Tommy: How did that make you feel though when you saw Soy Boy?

Josh: Like, I laughed really hard because initially I'm like, has Tommy created a YouTube account? That's my initial thought. And then when I clicked through and I was like, oh no, this guy follows other people and he's a real person. And that's the thing that surprises me about this stuff where people are leaving comments. These are real people. Yeah. It's like, what sort of state of mind is Mr. Singh in that he feels so sort of compelled? And so, that's what I worry about. It's almost like his ideology. He's got this vision of like the world and, ah, this guy's a soy boy.

Tommy: Well, you— You informed me about this Reddit thread. Is it Reddit?

Josh: So, it's a subreddit.

Tommy: Okay, subreddit.

Josh: I don't spend much time on Reddit.

Tommy: Yeah, but you informed me of the Casey Neistat subreddit.

Josh: Yeah, some people spend probably what I spend on— Funnily enough, I was watching a podcast. I'm just getting into— Is it Rooster Teeth? Rooster Teeth? Yeah, that's the studio that I sent you a link to.

Tommy: Melbourne-based podcast?

Josh: No, no, no, no, no, no. That's—

Tommy: Oh, Rooster Teeth is the big company over in the States. The United States have, they're a juggernaut.

Josh: Yeah, they do some cool shit. Anyway, they've got a, they've got their main podcast, which is Rooster Teeth, and they were talking about social networks and saying that Instagram appeals more to women. And funnily enough, like I spend most of, like I think that that's where I'm maybe low in testosterone because it's true though. I spend a lot of time on Instagram and then also Pinterest. Like, if you think about it, I have sort of femme qualities in that regard if you were to do it. But anyway, Reddit, some people spend the sort of time that I spend on Instagram on Reddit every day. They're like going through all the, you know, conspiracy theories and there's so many different subreddits. So, you're talking about the subreddits.

Tommy: Okay, the subreddit. So, you sent me— Well, you didn't send me there, you just told me about it and I jumped on it just to cheque out what was flying around. Putrid people on that. Yeah, because I did think when I started reading some of these things and just the speculation about Casey Neistat and his family and him and what he's doing and what he's thinking— outrageous. Yeah, what was one of them? Just like talking about how Casey, he's got that new, you know, business of his, 368, and how he's gonna— he's getting bored of it already. What, you fucking listen to him and you know him? And saying how he's—

Josh: that swearing works. Was in context, you're angry.

Tommy: How he's going to mess around and fire that Dan guy, and he's just been taken to the cleaners. Crazy. But it's— yeah, I thought about them as human beings. I bet you what one of them is, is some teacher from some little state in America who gets on there, goes savage, and then goes, hi kids. And like, yeah, it's just this total juxtaposition of what you'd think he'd be.

Josh: I think, yeah, if you're writing that sort of stuff You've got to have some serious things going on that you need to sort out. Like, why? Like, it's exciting in some regards because people are so invested with this stuff that they feel the need to do it. But I feel like we just don't have that in Australia. We don't have even the biggest names in sort of Australian pop culture, I don't think would be getting that sort of— They're not having Reddits created and people talking.

Tommy: I think you'd be surprised. I mean, these Facebook pages are pretty brutal as well. Twitter's pretty like, you can fly under the radar or just be a little pest on Twitter. Yeah, a lot of people just have pest accounts. Yeah, I don't think that's the technical term, but it's just an account, but they're pestering people.

Josh: I remember when Twitter first started, I created an account. I only sent one tweet, so I won't give you— it was a very good account name. But basically, someone I knew was having an issue with someone else who was like trolling them on Twitter. So, I created this cool name and then did basically gave this, yeah, tweeted at them just being like, hey, you've been picked for being an idiot for this week. That type of deal.

Tommy: You really need to, it's so easy to say just don't read them or don't. But I think there is a shift, like I remember being in Shepparton going into a new place, had been people on before, obviously. They were liked in, in, in some way. And then you— I actually didn't experience a lot of it. My co-host experienced more of it, seeing some stuff come through. And I, and I remember me getting a little bit of people just like, oh, this idiot, or something. Yeah. And it like, it's that your heart sinking moment.

Mason: Yeah.

Tommy: But then it's a weird thing because you, you have to push through it. And that's the hard bit about progressing in technology and people wanting to take their careers online, it's like this is going to happen. How do you build a thick skin? What do you think?

Josh: Yeah, I think, well, on that point about your co-host, I think that for whatever reason, women are more targeted in this sort of area, I think, than men.

Tommy: Why do you say that?

Josh: I think that if you just, if you look at the subreddits, especially even this Casey Neistat, there's women that's in his life, women that are in his life that are targeted. And it seems like, for me, it sort of screams this misogynistic, um, you know, it's sort of belittling. Oh, this person can't, like, they're not creative. All of these things, which to me is purely an unconscious bias or expectation of, uh, You know what it is like? I just, I think what came to mind just then is people thinking, oh, this person's a tryhard. They might do the exact same thing as someone else, but they're seen as they're a copycat, they're not original, they're doing it. And then we elevate the other people. Do you not? Do you, you know, what's your view on it?

Tommy: I don't know. I don't know the answer.

Josh: Well, I think that, I mean, the thing that you I think struggle with is this, the idea that man versus women, that men versus women, you don't want to play that. Like, similar to Sam Harris talks about it on his podcast too, it's just talking about gender stuff isn't necessarily fun, and it also feels like it's creating a divide sometimes.

Tommy: But to imply that women are more targeted, yeah, would be implying that, um, the man— like, so what's the, what's the thought around you that the reason why men don't get targeted?

Mason: Okay, well, so I know I understand more of you. All right, so thinking if the example that I, that I saw was when, uh, a radio show was, uh, canned and it was an all-female cast. Yeah..

Josh: And the comments that were on the article were all about like, well, it was, there was a fair bit about like, say, two chicks, like that was never going to work.

Mason: But then also talking about, you know, get some real talent. Like all the comments to me seemed like they were, yeah, it just felt Like if it was someone else, if it was dudes, there wouldn't have been the same level of commenting.

Tommy: So, do you want to talk about the show that you're talking about?

Mason: I don't know. Well, I don't know if it like, because what I was going to do is I want to try and find the actual article that I was referring to, because I was going to go on there and actually just be like, why are all these assholes getting into the comments? I just, I'm trying to find, I'm just trying to find it now because it was a few months ago. I don't, a part of me doesn't want to mention the name just out of a, you know, because it doesn't seem fair in some regards.

Tommy: I think the show you're talking about, I won't mention it, but I know the types of topics that they were touching on would slightly offend people in a commercial radio sense. And so, I get it, they're polarising, but maybe that's the brand of what show they were doing. But if you're saying that they were targeted just because they were women, by a small minority of people online is an interesting thing. I don't know the data, and you can only really make sense of this if you have a bunch of data to, to go on.

Josh: I feel like that's potentially the, the problem is, and this is the thing with Reddit, is we all theorise and say, okay, like, and prove it, like, prove that it's very hard to prove unconscious bias.

Tommy: So if you push a point of— it's a, it's a thought I feel that it's about this. You're still pushing, you're still proving it in your own sense. And I'm not saying it's not true, right? I'm just saying that if you were to go, yeah, I think it's this, that's— you're running with something.

Mason: So, this is what people are saying. So, these are the comments from last year. And so, for me, listen to the tone and how they're being talked— talk to. So, it's like I'm just going to read all a bunch of them and yeah, I'm not going to filter them out based on what they're actually saying. I'll just do them all so we can just see naturally what people are saying. So, Sally Wright quoted someone's, the content director of the show and said, "I know our listeners are going to love their unique and hilarious take on the world." And then Sally said, well, they didn't.

Josh: Pete said, was always a late night show at best. Good luck, girls.

Mason: Which to me is a bit condescending.

Josh: Chris says, the radio station did some great things this year. This was—

Mason: this one was not one of those.

Josh: Good decision here.

Mason: Very good decision. Kelly writes, nice girls, but not all podcasts work on radio.

Josh: Like, the thing is, uh, Chris writes, has two females ever worked anywhere on radio ever?

Mason: No.

Josh: And know that—

Mason: and then going on about industry-specific stuff.

Josh: And this is just like this, I'm just—

Mason: have done this in order. Nick writes, worst show to ever to be broadcast.

Josh: I understand that there you could say, oh, maybe it's just not a good show.

Tommy: What's your take on it though? Because you need to push it. So like, we went into this talking about women.

Josh: So, so my take on it is that when, uh, I haven't seen an axed show that has that sort of sting or that sort of, those sort of comments. And for me, and it's using the Casey Neistat example, if you look at, yes, there's some stuff with Casey and all that sort of thing, but there's all these sort of assumptions around like women should only be talking about these things. They're like—

Tommy: and well, um, Em Russiano was in a— on a podcast this week that's kind of gone mad, um, with Will Anderson. And we've talked a lot about it, but there's, there's one bit about her speaking of how she was kind of pushed into a role as a woman in a radio show, which was don't be overly opinionated, don't yell, and all these things. And she talked around these sort of bald-headed executives in radio. The fucking reality could be that radio in that way, it is what it is. There's this new medium where she's thriving, and people like the show you're talking about are thriving, and that's how they found their feet. So it's not to excuse these bald-headed people pushing women down in radio. It's like they're the fucking ones.

Josh: Did she really say bald? I'm pretty sure.

Tommy: I think she said bald-headed. I— it resonated with me. I liked it because I could just imagine a bald radio executive.

Josh: Craig Bruce is yelling out, it's not me, guys.

Tommy: No, it's actually not Craigy.

Josh: Maybe, I don't know. Well, yeah, so, and this is probably— I mean, my thing, my take on— I mean, now that we're talking about the Emre Ciano interview, I think there's going deep into the other side of that.

Tommy: We need to keep it to our topic because it'll take us in another whole—

Josh: No, but I think, I think that there's— I actually Yeah, my thoughts around some of this stuff is that I think that there's— it's not one or the other. Like, someone can be a pain in the ass to work with, and there's like— we've all worked with people who are really difficult to work with. And I just think that, um, yeah, as you said, it is—

Tommy: it's a tough— You don't even want to go down the pain in the ass. This is about her experience as a woman in the commercial radio landscape, and I'm saying that the commercial radio landscape might be ruptured. Like, there might be something actually wrong with that. And—

Josh: But that's why I think— That's why it's a systemic issue, right? So, the things I actually, like, could really resonate with what Em was saying in her interview is because if you actually listen to the interview, there's some bits where you're like, well, yeah, you're going to sort of get in hot water because you're saying X, Y, and Z, and you shouldn't. If you're going to bag out these people, it's probably going to sort of end poorly. But there is some of these issues where it's like, what I can resonate with, which is fuck the system. You know, this idea that the system is actually broken and it's not allowing these people to succeed. And the system, the radio system, is set up by the, uh, by society and what society is expecting.

Tommy: And it's old school, like it is operating in the past in some ways, as much as they're trying to sort of bring it into the new digital space. Yeah, there is the, the thought around, you know, the system and it being a bit broken in that respect. I mean, Seth Godin had it spot on— pick yourself. The podcast, the radio show you were talking about, they got axed and got all that slack. They actually built their brand through a podcast.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: So they were forward, and that, that was very impressive. Yeah. And we want to have those people on, which we're being— we should just say who they are. There's nothing wrong with it. Thinker Girls, my old co-host from Shepard. And my question to Stacey, looking back on it, it's like, and it's always easy to look in hindsight, but do you think it was the right move going into the commercial radio space when you had such success in the podcast landscape? Now with the podcast landscape skyrocketing, I mean, look at the daily talk show guys.

Josh: Well, I just think, I just think that like Even on that Em conversation.

Mason: Yeah.

Josh: You know, like the thing I find interesting is that she admits, like, I'm a pain in the ass to work with sometimes.

Tommy: I'm like— If we're bringing it back to what we're saying, though, about the bosses telling her to be a certain way, is it because of those things you're saying or—

Josh: Well, yeah, I think that—

Tommy: Or because she's a woman?

Josh: Well, I think that the thing is that there is like maybe there's 60%, which is probably being a female, you are expected to do X, Y, and Z on air, or you're meant to talk this certain way. And I guess the difficulty is, is that if, um—

Tommy: but that's saying that there really is a bigger issue in the society of saying that for the girls being on radio and you— and there was not going to be success. There's never been a successful female duo. It's like the There's something behind it that you're kind of tapping at.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: Of the society thinking that women can't succeed. Is that what you think?

Josh: Well, I think that the hard bit is this. I think that there is a lot of unconscious bias that happens where I'll be— I'll watch a show with friends and they'll be like, "Oh, man, I like this person, but that chick is just like trying to be funny and she's not funny," and stuff like that. Right. And I think that what it is, is it's like, We expect a funny person to look a certain way or we expect a radio presenter to be a certain way. And I think that that's the stuff, you know, the unconscious bias that I think that there does need to be some sort of work on. I think that the hard thing is with all of this is that there is muddying that goes along where it's like some people will say, use that as an excuse, you know, use that and say, hey, I haven't gotten the same opportunities because of this. And sometimes they're not the people who should be talking about it. They're not the one— like, they actually don't have the talent, and that's why they're not on.

Tommy: Do you— I mean, you, you bring up that unconscious bias, and I've heard it a few times with you, but is that where you sit though? Because I mean, that person going, and that person, if, if they have got unconscious bias they're just verbalising without even knowing, right? And you are identifying it as that, that's some unconscious bias coming out. Where do you fit on that landscape? Are you actually, do you enjoy listening to female-led podcasts?

Josh: I mean, you've heard me talk, I'm pretty femme anyway. I listen to Instagram and listen to the Thinker Girls. So on the spectrum, I think that it's a, I don't understand. Everyone has unconscious bias, right? I have unconscious bias.

Tommy: Yeah, but what do you feel, though? That's what I'm saying, like about these things.

Josh: So, the thing is that what you find entertaining is a level of unconscious bias, right? And we can't necessarily change what people find is entertaining. But at the same time, things that, you know, like Australia Day being a good example, right? Like when Australia Day 7 years ago, you could have some fun. You know, if you were a, you know, a white dude in a barrack, you would have an awesome time and celebrate and all that sort of thing. And now it's gotten to a point where it's like you learn, you get all of this empathy and understanding of like, actually, this is really offensive to some people. And that's like, oh, now that I have that extra context, I now don't necessarily, like, I don't need to celebrate. Australia Day. Yeah. And so, and so, and the people that hang on to these ideals, I think is like the— I think that the thing that we can do, if we can take anything from it, is it's like before we write something about someone or before we have a thought, even have a thought, just asking, why am I having that thought? And I think that like over the last few years, I've been doing that more and more.

Tommy: Because is that your filter? Because I don't think you've answered my question as far as What's coming up instantly? Or is your reaction to go, am I experiencing unconscious bias now because I don't like listening to this girl on the radio?

Josh: No, I think that there's— Yeah, I don't know. I think that like, just like everyone's not going to like Triple M and think it's too blokey, it's probably the other side of the coin. But I think that there is a— Yeah, there's a broader—

Tommy: because I mean, the person that says it's, you know, I cannot stand Carrie Bickmore, like, is that person, if they're a man, like, there's a broad sense, 50% of it is probably some sort of ex-girlfriend that they had that treated them like not right, that's now like having a go.

Josh: Like, I actually think that there's more of that triggering and shit that's going on. Or I just think that people who are, who have strong personalities who are female aren't necessarily, you know, some people like there's the common names like Emmerichiano spoke about Kate Lambrouck as someone who, and I've heard, I think Kate's so funny and I love that duo. Hussey and Kate. And but I've heard people go, "I just can't stand her." And it just feels like it comes from a different place. And it's hard. I know it's hard to articulate, but I think that what we can potentially do. And so, I don't think that this, all this Em stuff, the annoying thing about it is that, yes, she said these things and she's a pain in the ass to work with and she makes, you know, all of those things are true. Or might be true.

Tommy: From her mouth.

Josh: From her mouth. Exactly. But the thing that— This— We shouldn't throw the baby out with the bathwater, which is I actually think that she has a lot of valid points and there's probably people who won't be taking them in because of a bad experience that they had or a storey they've heard or—

Tommy: And so, I was saying her point was valid around the system being broken in that way of these executives looking at women in that way. In— I, I get when— what she was referring to was a room where she went in with a new breakfast show and they put out the butcher's paper and they were working out the roles of the show. And this guy was saying, you need to yell less, you need to be less opinionated. I don't know, that's what she said. I don't know if that's the words.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: Or it was just, you know, when you're in conversation, things— I'm sure I can imagine it happening though, because you are deconstructing a show live like that. And it's, it's gross. It's like you and I look at roles of the show, it's like, I don't know, we don't look at it like that. But maybe the way that structure is looking at that show in that environment is wrong, and it is just going on there. So either she needs to be out of it, doing her thing, because she could kill it by herself. It's a weird thing because everyone's seeing this, you know, uh, mainstream television or commercial radio is like the end game. Yeah. And it has been for many years. But maybe that isn't the end game. Maybe that is the environment that is. I don't, I don't quite know at that level. I haven't been in the top-end level, but I've experienced it in the, you know, regional market doing the same thing, defining roles. No one was ever going to say— this is, this is just shifting topic because I don't think it's really going anywhere, but my old, um, not in a bad way, I feel like you do get just—

Josh: I, I get the vibe that you You don't like talking about this.

Tommy: No, no, no, no. I'm not shifting it away from this conversation.

Josh: In the sense of like the— when we do talk about it, it's sort of like— Because I understand—

Tommy: I think saying that unconscious bias and the way you approach it, you're sitting on the fence. I don't think you are identifying with what you're actually feeling because you couldn't answer that when I asked you that.

Josh: What's the question, though?

Tommy: Well, say for instance, when your friend said, "Oh, I can't stand that woman," you're thinking that's unconscious bias coming out. What do you think? What do you think?

Josh: Well, I like them. I think they're funny.

Tommy: So, it's easy to see from the outside when you think it's funny and someone's offering up their opinion on it and to point at them to go, "It's unconscious bias." But I'm not getting on a high horse and saying I don't have unconscious bias.

Josh: I might look at people who look a certain way or whatever and make an assumption and say, "Oh, they're probably going to be like this or that." and I try and make an effort to question myself.

Tommy: I think it's when it makes you feel like your unconscious bias makes— it makes you look bad because— or makes you feel like you should feel bad because of your unconscious bias.

Josh: It's not about feeling bad, I don't think.

Tommy: I think that's what that conversation does for a lot of people. I'm not saying—

Josh: And this is the thing, and that's what it's going to take. Like, I think for progression, like The reality is that you might have to be a little bit uncomfortable and say, yeah, you know what? I don't have all the answers. And this is my problem with Reddit and shit like that is everyone's going on like, I'm coming on being like, I actually don't know. And I feel like this conversation, even more people will say, yeah, you say this, but this person's this or that or that and like bring in all these other things. But I think that just at the core, We, in moments, we will think a certain thing, which is based on all of the experiences that we've had, all of that stuff. And so, if we're trying to pave new ways, if we're trying to develop as a society and try, then I think that what we need to do is, it's not about, you know, negative talk to you and saying, it's really bad that you're thinking that way and all that sort of thing. But it's asking why.

Tommy: Yeah, I find it just when— I think it's just so different levels of conversation.

Josh: Because the other thing, the reason that I think we can have this conversation is because there's a lot of people who will listen to me and think that I'm crazy and that it's like not true. And there's people who might be able to understand what I'm saying.

Tommy: Rarely, there's a rare amount of See, I'll say women in breakfast radio in Melbourne, majority of them I don't like listening to. I don't find them entertaining and I don't find them funny, but that doesn't mean I don't find women funny. I was watching a Netflix special last night, a female comedian was fucking hilarious, and I'm not looking at these women and I'm not saying it's because they're women that I don't find them entertaining. PJ, the girl, the New Zealand girl on Kiss, I really like her vibe, her energy. Um, so that's where I go, is, is that how I've— am I, am I bad? Like, I don't, I don't like, um, Fev and Fifi. I'm not a fan of the show. Not that they're bad people. I don't like listening to their show. Fev, he's a bloke.

Josh: Byron's going to be annoyed that he didn't— it's Fifi.

Tommy: Byron, you're the best thing on that show. I love you, bro. No, but seriously, it's like, but it's a matter of taste. It is, right? It's not my taste.

Josh: So yeah, so this is the thing. It's a matter of taste. Like, I enjoy listening to that show. There's, you know, breaks that like in segments and stuff that they do that I really enjoy. I think that it's, yeah, it's a hard one, right? Because all of this is so personal.

Tommy: Exactly. And that's where it's like, well, will Fifi be offended that I don't like listening to her show? I hope not, because it's not about you as a person. It's about—

Josh: It's like format. It's about—

Tommy: I like listening to the Triple J Breakfast Show, the two dudes and that Brooke Boney, who's the news reader. She's awesome. Yeah, educated. She's funny, you know.

Josh: But I feel like there's then that vibe that like there's a lot of uneducated, unfunny women.

Tommy: Well, she's— her role, if it is in that show.

Mason: Yeah.

Tommy: And that's the problem, right? We're actually talking about constructed environments where roles are actually really important to survive in the landscape and Yeah. So, I don't know. I— This conversation, you say I don't like talking about it. I think more about it than ever being friends with you.

Josh: Yeah, I think you think about it, but I think that's definitely— And the thing is that if this is the first podcast you're listening to of ours, it's probably not the best one because hopefully the reason that I feel comfortable having these conversations is that you've heard us long enough That potentially what I'm hoping is that people email us, hi@thedailytalkshow.com and tell us like what you're thinking and what— And because maybe, maybe, you know, like I think that there's bits and pieces from all of this. I know that I'm 100% not an expert. You're not an expert. But what we're trying to describe is this is how we feel. And it's also not like I think what annoys me too is it's sort of like This idea that by supporting women, that there's some form of, I don't know what the word is, but it's sort of like trying to be the hero. It's like, oh man, that's easy to like, look at you, like trying to get some sort of brownie points or some shit like that, which bothers me as well because I feel like it's more about, this feels like the Right thing, like I'm trying to think about like wrong and right. And yeah, I don't know, like hopefully, you know, with where podcasting is going, where all this online media is going, it is going to allow people of, you know, different races, ideas, thoughts, humour to find their audience.

Tommy: And their voice, because they're not being told to fit a certain role. Yeah. There's a company out there that is telling people to do that and shut up and stop speaking. Like, fuck that. Yeah, they're not people who you want to work with if, if you're feeling like you are being put into a box. Yeah, there— I mean, there is a lot of— not blame, but it's like there is a lot of responsibility on these big media outlets. There's— have you heard recently about how they were going to— oh, I'll see if you've heard the headline, if you could tell it back to me even if you haven't read it, about the Thomas the Tank Engine. No, I haven't. Nothing around the gender of the, uh, yeah, the train. Like, what have you— It can be loose because you're only just—

Josh: Yeah, I have no idea. No, but I just— Yeah, there's— There is the—

Tommy: No, but have you— Just to summarise what you've heard. Oh, because it's been in the news, right?

Josh: No, no, I mean, my guess is just that Thomas could be a Tamilian.

Tommy: They're wanting to neutralise and remove the genders. Oh, this is what I took from the headlines and stuff, removing the genders of the characters in Thomas the Train, Thomas the Tank Engine series, whatever it is.

Josh: Train engine.

Tommy: I don't know, Bodie's into it. He loves it. He loves his little trains. And so the headlines were, you know, remove, uh, they're going to be removed from stores You know, gender is going to be neutralised and all this stuff. And I was just seeing it from afar and I saw this post by this guy who seems really interesting, Tom Tanuki.

Josh: Well, because the thing about this, though, and it's like the female—

Tommy: I'm going into reading something. Yeah, but you go ahead.

Josh: It's like the female crossing signs, you know, how they changed it from male, like they did a section in Melbourne. To me, some of that is almost this like reverse propaganda, which is like, that's what people latch onto. It's like, they're crazy, they're wanting to change Thomas's name. When the thing is, to be honest, I don't know whether that's the thing that's going to be what changes it. I think that like we focus on that, we talk about like those trivial things rather than these like much bigger things, which is like, rather than focusing on that, how about like we think about —But what you've just said is that it's the media outlet grabbing at that headline to and sharing that part of the story.

Tommy: So, this guy, and this was posted by my, the guy that I worked with in radio up in Shepparton, he was my programme director. He's bald, but he's not one of the guys that was pigeonholing women. He was great.

Josh: He came to our, was he the one at our live Shepparton?

Tommy: Yeah, he was at the live show in Shepparton. Lovely guy. Anyway, he posted this and it's a guy named Tom Tanuki. Melbourne dude, quite controversial in some respects. I watched some of his content. I couldn't see— I couldn't quite find where he sat in his views.

Josh: Actually, just on all of this, I'm going to read this thing still, guys. One thing that just hits me too is it's just like, what do you think of when you think of a content director? What— and maybe part of the problem is that we think of this like bald dude. Like, you know, if we want actual change, maybe Highwood guy with hair. No, no, we need, we need people who are directing the, you know, if you're saying that it's created, you know, these things are sort of plucked out and sort of created, manufactured, manufactured, then maybe those manufacturers shouldn't all be dudes. Maybe there's too many dudes doing the manufacturing.

Tommy: Yeah, I mean, there's some, there is some powerful females in radio at the moment that are at the head yeah, awesome. And I don't know, maybe it is, maybe. Um, so this guy Tom wrote, welcome to my page where every week I calmly explain to you why you are a parapsychical idiot for having frothed about the latest PC gone mad Murdoch article. Murdoch is— what is he on? Daily Mail? Daily Telegraph?

Mason: I've got a whole book on him.

Josh: I should— On Murdoch? It's really embarrassing that I don't know this sort of stuff.

Tommy: Okay.

Josh: He's like Harold Sun and stuff, isn't he? Or no?

Tommy: He's a media tycoon. He's— Yeah.

Josh: Anyway. That's going to outrage— What just happened there is going to outrage a lot of people that we don't know this basic information.

Tommy: Yeah. I'm pretty sure he owns the Daily Telegraph in Sydney. You seem to think that Thomas the Tank Engine is getting banned from libraries because the government want to make your son into a daughter. Okay, dickhead, let's talk. The Australian National University report recommends that libraries look at avoiding segregating kids into gender stereotypical activities, i.e., don't force the lil boys to play G.I. Joe and the lil girls to play Barbie. Give them choice. Allow their identity to develop without us bullying them in the direction our shitty subconscious thinks is best. Thomas the Tank is not getting banned because he's a he. No, no one recommended that. City of Melbourne even confirmed it's not happening, in case you're wondering. The Herald Sun made it up. It's the kind of speculative hysteria— what's next, banning Christmas?— that means they aren't technically responsible for your blind outrage, but they still benefit from it. See, you were all hyperventilating last week about Dean Carson's nappy-changing consent issue, remember? Something— that's another story. Because you're neurotic and easy to manipulate into whinging, they knew you were particularly sensitive to PC gone mad flavoured storeys at the moment, so they dug around for a recent gender studies report, skewed it, its possible consequences, to make it sound outrageous to monkeys like you, and then published a bit of clickbait. That draws more hits to their page, stimulates their Facebook reach, and boosts newspaper sales to the next day. Then reactions like Mike Bernardi and Corey Latham get to loop in on the issue like dogs on heat, humping away and pretending they're also angry for the money. They too benefit from your gullibility with increased Facebook reach. Nothing's getting banned, relax. See you next time.

Mason: Yeah, I think that like the— and that's what I was talking about, part of the problem being is that we jump onto all these things and it's sort of— it's— and it's prefaced with this idea of like, this is pro, this is moving us forward, but it's actually a way for the people who are trying to slow us down to paralyse us through these dumb ideas. Yeah, I mean, the thing I— We feel uncomfortable talking about this because we're not like, for one, we're not experts. And two, we both realise that we don't know like what, like the right thing to say is. So, there's probably like, hopefully we can use these microphones as a way of identifying some of our issues in our thinking.

Tommy: But I mean, that statement there, it's not as bad. The right thing to say. It's like we're all making calculations about what the right thing is to say, because there's no—

Mason: No, I think what you're implying is that right needs to be politically correct. What I'm saying in regards to right, right's not necessarily PC. Right is, you know, I guess we all have our— Yeah, I guess I can stand by it stronger because what I'm doing is I've got my ethics or my morals or my values or whatever you want to call it, my value system, and I'm putting all of these issues through that value system.

Tommy: But that's right for you, and I wasn't meaning politically correct because for some person who is trying to be politically correct. That's what I mean. But everyone's right is their internal feeling of the matter, and that right might be someone who doesn't like some female radio person, and they're saying that, and then they're getting beaten down, but they'll learn from it. I think that's the thing. This is— we're not trying— obviously we haven't pushed out either— there's no one agenda we're pushing with this, or one right way of looking at it. It's like, this is a conversation.. And it's helped me hanging around you.

Mason: Yeah. I found a book that Mum gave to us, to Bree and I.

Josh: What year was it? Like, Mum owns this book. I wonder how legit it is, but it's—

Mason: Fifty Shades of Grey. Geez, Lynn. It's Why Men Don't Listen and Women Can't Read Maps Beyond Leaving the Toilet Seat Up, which is pretty funny. So, Yeah, I think like it's a—

Tommy: Written by a, what's this person on the back? A man and a woman, Alan and Barbara. Is that who wrote it?

Mason: Do you know, we should get, I've got some, an interesting client. My Slack's going crazy. I've got an interesting client. Bree has sold the fridge, guys. Oh yes. Bree sold the fridge.

Tommy: Follow-up from yesterday, sorry, it's off the market.

Mason: $700. Not bad. It's okay.

Josh: You wanted $11,000. Yeah, no, we wanted $9,000. $900, not bad. Yeah, no, it's interesting. Do you know who we should get on? One of my clients is a doctor in gender and diversity. University. Like, she's got it like a doctorate in that sort of thing. So, she is doing some great work with a few development agencies at the moment around, like, it's gone over for a number of years around women in different cultures. So, things like, there's all this stuff I'm learning, like in the Solomon Islands and PNG and Fiji, They're doing all of these things to try and help women in their communities. And one of the things they talk about is there's all these informal jobs that women do that don't necessarily pay. So, like setting out the flowers in church or doing like preparing things and all of this stuff, which is like, yeah, which is unpaid for, which is, I think, they sort of trying to talk about the fact that, you know, You know, these men will come home and be like, where's dinner? Why isn't it served? And being like, hey, maybe you should actually be doing stuff around the house, too. Because although women aren't having these full-time jobs, they're actually doing all of this other stuff, which is just what society says we don't pay for, which just so happens to be the jobs that women tend to do as well. I think, yeah, we should definitely get Anne-Marie. Yeah, this client on, because she's hilarious too. Bit of a loose unit. Yeah, I think she'll be funny.

Tommy: We love, we love a loose unit on the Daily Talk Show.

Josh: Everyone, thanks for listening. A bit of a different one. Let us know what you think. And, um, you know, this is the interesting thing of having more guests on too, because I feel like having different guests on with varying opinions will be able to add a new level to, um, to what we're doing as well. It's another perspective or an opinion or a thought, a viewpoint. Yeah, it's hi@thedailytalkshow.com is the email address. We do have a PO Box too, which is PO Box 400, Abbotsford, Victoria 3067.

Mason: Enjoy. What, man, this was a Friday. What a strong Friday fun one. Have a good weekend, guys. See ya. See ya, guys.