Stop teasing

Tommy: It's the Daily Talk Show, episode 66.

Josh: And who would have thought we would have brought an intro in?

Tommy: Yeah, but I just realised I was trying to create some sort of tone or some sort of melody, and we've already got a song playing underneath us right now, so it's going to be— it sounds like— that will sound like shit.

Josh: Tommy and Josh, do you like what I just did there? Put your name first.

Tommy: Thanks.

Josh: I think that sounds better, don't you think?

Tommy: Tommy and Josh.

Josh: Josh and Tommy.

Tommy: Yeah, Josh. And I like Josh and Tommy, and you like Tommy and Josh.

Josh: That's nice, isn't it?

Tommy: Never decide. Anyway, it's called the Daily Talk Show.

Josh: It is, um, you're—

Tommy: because you're replaceable, mate. I can fuck you off any minute.

Josh: It's true. It's good to, um, hedge your bets.

Tommy: Um, just quickly, uh, I like to give some like little updates around, uh, how people are marketing in this day and age. Through LinkedIn, had a few personalised emails. Actually, they weren't personalized, they were the most templated emails sent through to me. But this one, um, so LinkedIn, you get like a request to be a friend.

Josh: Yeah, you requested Bree this morning. She said, oh, Tommy Jackets just, uh, added me on LinkedIn.

Tommy: I don't know why. We weren't together anyway. That's true, as friends on LinkedIn, not together in real life, but Anyway, um, so I had a guy request me, Dave. Yeah, shout out to Dave-o. And you know when you request someone, you can put like a note that is basically— I don't know, the feature's there obviously so it's not that impersonal. So you can be like, hey dude, um, would love to connect with you. So this guy Dave, let me just run you through this. Dave first sent the connection plus a note that said, hi Tommy, This year I'm making an effort to expand my personal connections and reach people who share my passion. It appears from your profile that we have similar interests. I'd love it if we could join each other's networks and get some amazing opportunities as a result. Dave. I didn't, I didn't write anything, I just accepted because it's a, it's a, it's an interesting game, LinkedIn. I just go hard It's old school Facebook, just liking, following, just commenting on people's, just going hard. And so I accepted him, and then he sent another one through. Thanks for the connection, Tommy. Let's make the most of this opportunity and see how we can help each other get opportunities we otherwise wouldn't. All the best. Cheers, Dave.

Josh: I don't know if it's your tone, but he sounds like a fucking pain in the ass.

Tommy: It's a—

Josh: I feel like you're setting me up to say he's a— is he No, he's okay.

Tommy: But what do you think of that? Like, it's very not— it's not personalized, it's copy and paste, it's almost a template.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: And it's, um, he's a filmmaker, an amazing coffee drinker. That's what he says.

Josh: Yeah, I think that if you're gonna go to— like, going back to— actually, it also reminds me, closing the loop on two things. Yeah, still need to write back to that person who wrote to me that really nice email who I said did a really good job. Haven't written back.

Tommy: I can't remember that, but you remember. You're reminding yourself here.

Josh: Yeah, but also another closer loop that's completely irrelevant to this. Yes, Bree told me that she paid my ambulance cover already. So when I did that episode and said I need to pay my ambulance cover, it's been paid. She was yelling through the speakers saying, I fucking paid it, you idiot. Um, no, so yes, emails, uh, tone sending messages. Dave.

Tommy: Dave.

Josh: I think it's all good. The fucking— the dots are connecting. I think his— I don't like that approach. It's okay. Is it better than just connecting blind? Maybe. It's nowhere near the— if it feels like it's a fucking copy and paste job.

Tommy: It did.

Josh: It's actually probably worse in some regards than just not saying anything at all. Because he's revealed his cards. It sounds like you're in a fucking sales funnel. Yeah, it's in this like relationship funnel.

Tommy: Yeah, I accepted stage 2.

Josh: Yeah, like what's third base? Like, let's go. Um, yeah, no, so yeah, I don't necessarily like it. I also think, um, you know, there's just— there's something about actually, like, if he is really wanting to connect, actually connect, consume some of your content and have something to say about it. Um, because I think that I understand what he's doing, but it's at the very first level. It's like going to a meetup. He's, he's at the meetup, he's saying, oh, you know, we should connect and all that sort of thing. Like, all of that shit when people like, oh, we should connect, blah blah blah, like, that's, that's not being a connected thing. That's sort of talking around networking. It's being a bit too fucking— he's being meta.

Tommy: Um, just outside of that, uh, that's all I wanted to talk about, Dave. I don't want to give him any more airtime, but, uh, it's fine.

Josh: I, I have been getting LinkedIn stuff where it's people saying they'll add me and then they'll say, oh, I've got this new music royalty-free website, I think it would be great for filmmakers.

Tommy: The same guy, because I quizzed him on it. I said, how is this any better than Artlist.io.

Josh: Oh yes, yeah, I said that. Did you say that? No, I didn't really engage.

Tommy: The exact same thing. It was a dude based in Sydney.

Josh: Uh, yeah, Berlin and Sydney.

Tommy: Yes, yes. And it was complicated because I— he's like, sign up. And I went on to it and I was like, how do I listen to this stuff without putting my credit card details in?

Josh: Yeah, well, how about this? I saw on LinkedIn someone did a post where they screen grabbed this conversation.

Tommy: Oh no.

Josh: Which was a message. A guy said, hey, blah blah blah, I'd like to connect. And then 3 days later, you don't even have the decency to write back. And so this guy actually sent back like a really nice message being like, hey mate, I've actually been away, I didn't see your message, you know. But do we need to be writing back to everyone?

Tommy: No, no. And I was listening to someone talk about going viral It was on Matt D'Avella's podcast.

Josh: Okay, shout out to Matt. First shout out, you've done a shout out for Matt. It's a good podcast, The Ground Up Show. Yeah, have a listen to it. He's great because he's an amazing filmmaker and he's bridging that gap in probably the best way that I've seen of video and audio content. And every single time I have it up on the TV, Bree fangirls and says, I just love, I love his colour grades. I really love his colour grades.

Tommy: Yeah, you hate that.

Josh: Yeah, I'm just like, what's— what do you think of my grades?

Tommy: I'm good about his LUT.

Josh: Exactly.

Tommy: LUT's a lookup table. It's like a colour grade setting that you just drop onto footage if you just want to—

Josh: that was a really— talking about that, that was a really good, um, answer.

Tommy: Like, well, I should, I should know. I'm a fucking filmmaker.

Josh: You didn't know what a fucking LUT was like 2 years ago.

Tommy: Yeah, I'm not using this bullshit LUT. Fucking Lutz, put an S in front, you know what happened.

Josh: Lutz. Oh, that's like— I put the S at the end. That's good.

Tommy: Anyway, one of his guests was talking about going viral, and, um, a brief, just a quick summary of how she went viral. It wasn't just like making a video like what you and I do and it go viral. She organised some event and there was fucking all these big celebrities performing.

Josh: Was it Coachella?

Tommy: No, no, no, no. So some guy got like shamed online on this Facebook page.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: And then she tweeted out like putting support behind this guy because he was like a bad dancer. And they were like, let's get together and dance. And, and they ended up doing this event. I think she was on like fucking Ellen, all these crazy shit, like legit viral.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: Um, and she was talking how it was like a it's like a full-time job. Like, she literally— like, the amount of inbound that she was getting once it happened took her days to get back to.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: And so that's, that's someone who is obviously not a star or not a celebrity or doesn't experience this on a daily basis and then falls into it. And then, like— so my point is, if you were big, you wouldn't be getting back to 90% of the people, 99% of the people.

Josh: Yeah. But there is— I think there is something to be said with yeah, the early— I think it's picking your mediums. What medium are you going to be really good at? Seth Godin, Derek Sivers, they're good with email. They'll get back. They don't do fucking social media that well, but if you send them a fucking email, they'll get back. Unless you fucking request Seth Godin on the Daily Talk Show, he won't necessarily write back. But, um, no, so, but interestingly about that example of going viral, it's almost touching on, uh, what we're speaking to Ryan John about yesterday, where the, uh, she's gone viral for this thing and it's like this hockey stick growth, which, you know, that startup terminology of just fucking peaks, goes super big really quick, and then a couple of things happen. All of that audience is going to be a certain type of audience And if it's disconnected from what you do day to day— so if she's a video person, you know, this guest, and they are being celebrated for the event, how do you sort of— how do you leverage going forward? But also that, uh, that virality will subside or come down.

Tommy: Yeah.

Josh: And it's interesting, I wonder what the residue is of that, like what you know, what do you, um, what's the long-lasting effects of going viral?

Tommy: Yeah, well, look at the Obike thing. There's like a drip effect from that. Yeah, as far as— so like an instant hype and radio interviews and TV stuff, and then it fades, but there's still touch points along the way.

Josh: Well, there's still the story. The storey always remains. And so I think at the beginning it becomes about—

Tommy: and the tattoo I got of an Obike mark, I'm still there.

Josh: But the thing is that there's the, um, I think that through this process you're selling different things. So at the beginning you're selling the, um, the entertainment value, the actual thing, and then I feel like a year later it becomes a retrospective where you're talking about this is how I did the thing. You deconstruct it and you say, okay, these are the 5 things that I did to be able to get people talking about it.

Tommy: Yeah, so I, I'm thinking yesterday I made this video, it hasn't done that well, and I thought it would do better.

Josh: Um, was this the fire one?

Tommy: No, Fake It Till You Make It.

Josh: Sure.

Tommy: So just talking about that, how that premise relates to me and how I put it to use. Yeah, when I was young and naive and how it sort of worked for me in some respects. Um, but I spent more time on that video than I did on the Obike video, and the Obike video went mad and this hasn't done anything, right? Yeah, but I, I like, I'm more proud of the video, the Fake It Till You Make It video, in terms of like, for me to have to tell that storey and reflect and bring all these elements in, it was like I was challenging myself. It was harder. It was actually harder to shoot and edit that, and it was more simple than the Obike one.

Josh: Well, I think that the aim of the game isn't like the metric that you're looking at in life isn't just views. And if it is just views, you'll— there's heaps of ways of like you could be a full-time fail video guy where you specialise in filming people getting fucked up, like falling off bikes and stuff. Yeah, being a jackass, right? There is an audience. There are so many audiences out there where you could, if that was your number one metric and your only metric. However, like, this is an example of like there's a lot of things at play. And what that reminds me of is I remember doing a video of this person and it was like a little short documentary that I made a few years back. And we decided that before we would release that doco, we would do like, while we were there filming them, we were like, let's get a bit of extra content. So, we did like a little Q&A with them. That Q&A had about the same, if not more, views than the doco that took, you know, 2 days to film, a day to edit, versus the Q&A which was like 20 minutes at the end of filming and that we just got up that night.

Tommy: Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's totally right. And my metric wasn't, uh, for me personally, I got a lot of satisfaction out of making it and then being able to look back. Like, I, for me, that video talking about that fake it till you make it, um, what it did was like it may— it formed— it, it brought together thoughts that I had on this thing and solidified them. And I, and I was able to articulate it, even though I can't right now, but I articulated the fake it till you make it premise within my life. And I'm proud of being able to create that. And I think creators, it's like the piece of art that sells for the most might not necessarily be the one you think.

Josh: Yeah, it's all about timing as well. Yeah, and leveraging what's happening. So Obike was a hot topic, the media wanted to be covering it, and you gave them content which really fitted perfectly into that. Uh, the thing is that if you look at the conversations that you actually have on this mainstream media It's not necessarily like meaningful conversations. Like we spoke about that when my friends, The Minimalists, were on the project and I had the privilege of going around Australia and New Zealand filming them doing their talks. And then you hear them within the context of a night show where they have 5 minutes and it's a quick chat.

Tommy: Bunch of goofs interviewing.

Josh: It's like, it's, you know, lovely goofs.

Tommy: Yeah, zinger after zinger, but it's a, it's a different format. Yeah.

Josh: Um, and so it's also working out like, what is the, uh, what's the goal on all of this? Um, and I don't think like, is the right approach to, um, actually was speaking to, to Ryan about this after the show yesterday. It's that thing of thinking that everything's going to be going viral, like positioning everything as going viral, and then that heightens everything, so everything has to be super fucking creative and all that sort of thing, versus being like, okay, this is, um, I'm doing this just because I'm working on my craft. I think it's a good story, but it's not necessarily going to be a viral piece, and doing that. Yeah.

Tommy: Oh, you cannot think like that.

Josh: It's It cripples. Yeah. Cripples your creative. Thinking that everything's going viral.

Tommy: Yeah, thinking that everything is. You just gotta make.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: I was talking to a client of mine about, they created a bigger piece and it's all sort of related. They created like a bigger documentary, 9-minute mini documentary style that they want people to look at. And they wanted to sort of cut together this trailer for it. So one video essentially. That would promote it. And the thinking around that is going, the trailer might actually get more views than the actual documentary.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: And that's all people will see. So my thought around it was cut the documentary, you know, cut 5 bits of the documentary and put them onto Instagram. That's where they wanted to post it as touch points.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: Because it's amazing what people miss.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: And what you think, just because you put together one video and put it out there, it's like people see it. But yeah, you can't, you can't predict where people will stop and actually consume this stuff.

Josh: Yeah, I think it's that people are, um, have an idea of the destination, um, and a lot of the times they're wrong on where. So they're like, okay, we want to, um— I remember an example being when I was working in radio doing digital content for the Drive show, Fifi and Jules, here in Australia. They, we would be cutting up these teasers, right? So, it's like, say we'd be doing a video, we're doing like a main video and we'd cut up a teaser and put that out the day before. The problem being that social media doesn't do well with teasers. Like, it's like, don't waste our fucking time. Like, when the content's there, show us the content. Don't fucking tease us. And it's, I think, playing into the algorithm and that type of thing. It's like people are there to see the, um, to see the movie, not the trailers, right? So that was one lesson I remember. So I think that what I got out of it is that every piece of content needs to honour the platform that it's on. So that means don't fucking pixelate a photo on Facebook to try and get people to click through to see the actual photo on the website, which was fucking common practice. Yeah, yeah. You need to give them value on the actual— this is why I think anyway— on the platform, which then will get them to naturally want to explore. It's a fucking— well, if you look at it this time, uh, this way, if—

Tommy: what if that's the only time you've got their attention? So that teaser is the only time in that day that they're gonna have— they're gonna be looking at your content, and you've just served them up a half-baked piece of content.

Josh: Well, that's why I think clickbait is so hilarious, because it's— it's the, the premise of clickbait is we are going to have a headline that's probably detached from the actual storey to get people to view the story. It's like the ultimate oversell underdeliver.

Tommy: Yes.

Josh: Which might get people to click through, but will it create like a good brand? Will it build a great relationship? So I think there is— I think that the hard balance is representing things because clickbait works. Like, if you've got a good story, you want to have a title that works well. With the story. So it's like when we're trying to work out what to call Ryan— the podcast with Ryan John yesterday. It's okay, what can we say that's going to pique someone's interest without them thinking that they're going to get this fucking like crazy story?

Tommy: And what do we do? Just an honest looking for your birth mother or whatever it was.

Josh: And so by being honest, then you might get less— maybe you get 70% of the clicks that you would have gotten However, those 70% will appreciate it a lot more.

Tommy: Well, the trust hasn't been broken too. The amount of times I get furious if I don't see it within the first paragraph of what they've clicked, linked me to, yeah, or what they've promised, and then you get there and then you read through, it's like, what are you fucking talking about? I heard on, on, in the car on the way here this morning, the host, the radio host, hooking. So it's a thing you do, you know, you want to hook forward, um, TSL, time spent listening, TSL, yeah. And so you're trying to sort of make the person stick around for longer to hear what's coming up. This person gave a hook about Drake's got some big news and we're going to bring it to you in the next 15.

Josh: Pick up your iPhone and just search for it.

Tommy: Exactly. Hooking, like, it's almost irrelevant. Like, if you're in a cab or if you're in a car You got someone next to you, can you just search that? Like my thought instantly, I'm gonna look that up.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: Straight away. I don't wanna fucking wait 15 minutes. And so yeah, your point is like, how about dishing up a solid piece of content every 15 minutes or just constantly bringing value?

Josh: Yeah, it's the equivalent of like if you're a supermarket and you have 3 punnets of strawberries that each day go for a dollar, right?

Tommy: It's a fucking bargain. Yeah. Where?

Josh: Where? But there's only fucking 3 punnets of it. And then so, you put up at the front of the building, strawberries $1 a punnet. Anyone after those 3 punnets are gone are going to be fucking pissed because they're going to rock up. And I've noticed that those things at like cafes or things like that where it's like, I remember I stopped going to a place called Inner Rush that was next to my old office in the city when I was working at Envato because they had this breakfast special and it's like get one food item and a coffee for X amount. And then all of a sudden I would get the spanakopita every time. And one day they're like, oh, spanakopita is not part of the deal.

Tommy: Oh, fuck off.

Josh: I was like, bro, first it was being slow when you call yourself in a rush and now you're not giving me the spanakopita. You can go fuck yourself. So, I never went there again. But that is being honest. From the get-go, yeah, is going to— and I think that it makes people uncomfortable. Like, I remember hearing— I was, uh, I was in the situation where I was in an office, it was sort of like an open-plan office, and someone was doing their job interview in the, in the office. So, I could hear everything and it was fucking— I loved it, right?

Tommy: Yeah, because taking notes.

Josh: Yeah, because I wasn't in there, like, I wasn't tweeting, I wasn't in the content, like, I was sort of sitting outside as an outsider hearing it. And it was fascinating being like, um, this person that was being interviewed saying, I love, uh, working with teams, that's where I'm best, working with teams, blah blah blah. The, the interviewer said, now there is a lot of work where there's going to be alone time. And the interviewee is like, great, because I also love my time, right? And so there is If the girl had just said, you know, the interviewee had just said, yeah, no, like, that doesn't seem like it's the right fit, I think that that would have a lot more cut-through. And that's where, as service providers, the criticism that Bri sort of gives me, or Bri questions me on, is when I say no to things, or when I give pushback, or I say You know, your business is called Bushback Productions. Exactly.

Tommy: No, but it hasn't filmed anything yet because there's too much pushback.

Josh: Not doing it, brah. Um, no, but the thing is, and, um, Bree being in the business more has seen what happens when you don't give that pushback. So if you're the person that says yes, yeah, we'll make it work, and there are alarm bells going off, so you haven't got the correct creative brief that you need to be able to do the best job It's always hard to say no. And in the creative process, there is going to be a level of ambiguity that is just naturally going to happen. But you need to have— and this is the difference, I think, between someone who's a seasoned professional and someone who doesn't have as much experience— is someone with not as much of experience will be quick to say, quote for something, say, yeah, this is how much it's going to cost. Yes, I'll do it. Whereas if you haven't worked out how many cameras you need, or like, yes, how many deliverables, and it's being confident in what you're, um, where those lines are, because clients naturally don't want friction, they just want someone to do it. Yeah, but it's realising when you need to have those friction points. So when the tone of the email is like, oh no, we don't have those details yet, Like, does it— like, uh, one that I had the other day was, um, I said, I need to know whether— is it going to be— are you, for deliverables point of view, are you wanting one long video of this or are you wanting shorter pieces? And they're like, oh, does that really matter?

Tommy: Yes.

Josh: Well, yeah, it does. And it's hard in those moments because there is that sort of questioning of yourself, which is like, am I being unreasonable?

Tommy: No fucking way. It's, um, I think for people out there, you know, getting videos from people. I'd be sceptical if they're not asking you details and giving you quotes and stuff. Yeah, because you don't— fuck, I've become the metaphor guy as well now. Yeah, well, can you build me a house? Yeah, sure, it's $300 grand. What? I didn't tell you what it was.

Josh: Yeah, exactly. And that's, I think, the, uh, the thing that's happening a lot at the moment where it's, um there's a lot, especially if someone's being honest in their pricing, they're going to ask a lot of questions up front, right? If someone said, if someone says, hey, can you build me a house? I want it, and they put some extra scope around it, like, we want it to be environmentally friendly, want it to be all natural products, and they say, okay, it's going to cost $1.5 million to do, right? Yes, they might be completely legit, but they're going to be making a lot more fucking margin because the agreement there is, okay, we're going to play in it. Like, the, the boundary that we're using, the boundary line, is the budget. Whereas if they said, okay, yeah, environmentally friendly, would you like these types of tiles, or would you like, you know, this, this type of flooring, uh, All of those questions, then they can say, okay, well, if we're going to make this home, you know, with floor-to-ceiling glass, then that's going to cost X amount, but we can make savings in X, Y, and Z. And if you're not the fucking builder and you're working with the builder, the builder does this every fucking day. So they know, they've got the contacts and they can find opportunities. They can say, we actually know, we have a company that does the pre-cut glass, we can get, or we're doing this job, it allows for creativity.

Tommy: The business that I've experienced this dealing with them is like that say yes and then internally scramble and you see it is PR agencies. I feel like they have to be seen to be putting out, yes, we're doing it, it's all good, we got this, it's fucking bringing the vibe. And then it's just like this nightmare inside. And I've experienced that with quite a few people who are in the PR industry.

Josh: Well, I think agencies in general, right? Because when you're communicating, we're a one-stop shop. When you're a one-stop shop, how the fuck do you say no? What you're selling there is we do everything, and you are going to attract clients that expect a yes every single time. And so that could work So there's got to be a lot of margin, and it's got to be like, okay, we're going to get a couple of million dollars off this company every year, and then we're going to use that money to get resources or hire people who are specialized. So if all of a sudden you go from doing their social media and they say we want you to do their email, you know, email marketing, then there needs to be a few hundred thousand dollars buffer there that they can just hire then and there an email marketer and the client doesn't have to worry at all.

Tommy: It's definitely not the business I want to build, as in that vibe, that sort of— because I know what it feels like personally.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: To be going, fuck, we need to work this out.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: Problems are great. Problems that need solving is what we're— we're in the game of solving problems. Videos are just a problem.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: And so I'm quitting.

Josh: I've quit.

Tommy: Fucking annoying. No.

Josh: But it is that, it is that balance because I think that we're both reasonable. We both like love, like part of the reason or the biggest part of the reason is that I want clients to be happy. And if I think that there's too much sort of ambiguity, there's too much unknown, there's not a focus on defining what success is. It's like, um, I saw Craig Harper did an Instagram post, your mate, coach and all-around nice guy did his lessons, whiteboard lessons, whatever he calls it on Instagram. Is it whiteboard lessons?

Tommy: That's his Instagram.

Josh: Yeah. And he did one where it's like, be the person who finishes things, right? And I think one of the interesting things around that is if we were to really deconstruct it, why aren't things done? Why aren't they finished? And for me, I think it's actually the definition of done. Defining what done is, because the, the loose ends that can happen when you're in a business where it's like, oh yeah, we want this extra thing, or I want that sort of thing— that's the area where things never really get done because there isn't a clear definition. Yeah. So I feel like the getting things done, having it complete, actually requires a piece of work at the start. Every single time you say yes to say to something have a, have a mutual discussion and have a mutually decided done point. When is this done? When we hand you over this file, this is when it's done. Yeah, I think that, that, that is really important. And whenever I've felt uncomfortable, it's when you've said yes to all these things and it's just a bit of a hang on. And we all— everyone who's in any creative field knows that Yeah, and it can be enticing initially because it's like, yeah, we're just— we're gonna work on this until you're happy. And that— but that's a fucking hard done point, right? Whereas if you say, okay, version 1 will be done at this point, and then we're going to go on to version 2, and then having those milestones creates boundaries. And within those boundaries, you can actually define success. Did we complete it on time? The thing I hate the most is not having a clear deadline on things. If any client tells you we're fucking easy, create your own deadline and communicate it. Yeah, if someone says we're easy, we're saying, okay, with my timeline, it needs to be completed and done by the end of April. And then, because otherwise you can fall into this trap where it's like, you know, You fucking charge 10 grand for a job and you're thinking it's gonna take 2 weeks and then the client's easy and you're 6 months later and they're still scrambling or finding things and you're not doing work, but that's like cognitive load that you have to fucking think about.

Tommy: It's always good to offload a load.

Josh: Yeah. Great last thought. Great way to finish off. Great way to finish off. There we go again.

Tommy: It's another metaphor.

Josh: How many you got? It's a daily talk show, everyone. Michelle emailed us and said that it was a bit hard on old mate Ryan's mum with his 3-word hang-up. Yeah, can't— it was good gear. And it is funny, it's funny the dynamics. Like, I'm not a blokey bloke, I've never been a bloke, I've never been woof woof one of the boys, but Yeah, I do notice the dynamic where it's just like, I get fucking, my head starts fucking nodding.

Tommy: I'm like, yeah, there's a group of blokes together.

Josh: There's a few guys, it's just like, let's, I think it's you, I don't think I did it too much yesterday, but I was like, there's that desire to have some zingers, you know, just fucking make everyone laugh. Yeah, yeah. So.

Tommy: When you start matching other people 'cause everyone's doing it and then you bring it and you're a one-up man. I bring a metaphor, it's shit house, you bring a better one.

Josh: It's, it's the shtick. It's just— everyone, it's the Daily Talk Show. Thanks for listening.

Tommy: See you guys.