Hard conversations

Josh: The Daily Talk Show, everyone. Episode 56.

Tommy: Boom.

Josh: It's Tuesday.

Tommy: It's a good number, 56.

Josh: It is nice, mate.

Tommy: It's a good day. I've had a good day. Some days you just nail, some days you just fucking feel like a piece of shit. Yeah, you know, a bit of this, bit of that.

Josh: What do you, what do you think is the equation for a good day?

Tommy: Oh, I feel like today could have gone either way, and I feel like it's my mind I don't know, I felt like I— oh, hard conversations.

Josh: Yeah, and you got the edit done, like the edit you've been working on done.

Tommy: Yeah, I've got so much work going on, it's great. And I could fall in a heap when you do have a lot of work, because that's potentially the byproduct of stress, right? Yeah, stress is the byproduct of being super busy, and then the result of stress can be you fall into a heap of shit.

Josh: Well, yeah, I think it's a— for me, I work better with more going on, like I have this tipping point where it's not good. But I think when you're sort of at capacity where you have to stop fucking analysing shit and just doing things, whereas if you've got one project on, you got a bit of time, you'd be like, actually, you know what, I can push that or whatever. But this sense that if I don't do it now, I might not be able to do it later.

Tommy: Yeah, I think as a business owner, it's like you do, you should have a lot to do. 'cause that's the responsibility of owning the business in terms of growing it. There's always things you're gonna be doing. It's not like you're working in a cafe, there's no one walking in, there's no coffees to clean up. Yeah, it's like, no, you gotta make coffees for a potential person. Fuck, I've started doing metaphors.

Josh: Your, uh, your mic was a bit quiet, so I've just turned you up.

Tommy: I have caught the bug, the metaphor, the metaphor bug.

Josh: It's like having a— it's like a bee and you're the flower.

Tommy: And so elaborate.

Josh: Yeah, that's about it. I wanted to talk so much better, guys. If Tommy was a bit quiet in the first 30 seconds, sorry about that.

Tommy: Yeah, yeah, hard conversations, having them. You hear the advice, oh, have the hard conversation. Me mate Craig Harper, have the hard conversation first, do a harps impersonation.

Josh: You just gotta fucking do it. I don't know, that's all I got.

Tommy: Um, but it's so true, and a hard conversation doesn't mean breaking up with somebody. That's not the severity of hard. That would be a hard conversation. But a hard conversation can just be one you're feeling a bit awkward about.

Josh: Sometimes a hard conversation is not breaking up and going like, okay, what's the, uh, uh, you know, you're working with someone or things like that. It's like, actually, we— if we're going to continue and working together, we need to get this sorted.

Tommy: I think I've been experiencing some hard conversations in terms of stretching outside my comfort zone, because it's nice and, you know, not to—

Josh: fucking Siri's thinking you're talking.

Tommy: Sorry about that.

Josh: Go on. That was on my watch, everyone.

Tommy: Fuck me, that scared the shit out of me. Yeah, um, so where was I? Just—

Josh: yeah, this is how I feel with my Apple Watch every day.

Tommy: But when it looks so distracted— first it was the levels, now you're bloody Siri.

Josh: I'm all good. You're a robot. Now, if I was a robot, I wouldn't get distracted. True.

Tommy: Um, when was the last time you had a hard conversation?

Josh: Uh, all the time. I think I do. I think, uh, probably, uh, the hardest conversation would have been that 3 weeks ago or whatever when I sort of essentially broke up with a client where I just said, look, hard conversation. Yeah, I said, uh, like, it's not, uh this isn't where I want to go with my business, working with companies that are similar to you, which is interesting, interesting conversation. But that was a hard conversation. What I've realised and what we've spoken about is I normally have to be backed into a corner and be pushed to have that hard conversation. Yeah. And I think that there is a disadvantage to that. I think that pushing through and having hard conversations way earlier makes sense. So creating— so for instance, a client wanted to drop off some footage to me today, and I just had to communicate with her, hey, this is the time that I'm available. And she was sort of pushing out and saying, oh, it's going to be this time, this time. And what it meant is that I had to communicate and have a hard conversation, say, look, just so you know, when you when you drop it up, I'm just gonna have to take it and sort of run because I've got other things to do. Whereas I think what I've done previously is whichever squeaky wheel, whatever's happening, whatever person I'm looking at face to face, I will prioritise that rather than prioritising initially this is my time.

Tommy: And then it's so weird because it's all external. It's making you don't want to put other people out. So like what you're mentioning there is like the benefit of those hard conversations was you, and not having them is almost the benefits on the other person. Yeah, because they're either getting away with something or they're just plodding along to what they thought.

Mason: It seems, it seems selfish to, uh, to have the hard conversation, but I think that it's the, uh it goes back to what I've said a few times in the last few episodes. Can't remember where I heard it from. Uh, it was in Essentialism, that book. Uh, don't, uh, what is it? Don't take away other people's problems. Don't steal other people's problems. What was it?

Tommy: Something around don't, don't steal other people's problems.

Mason: Yeah, like don't, don't steal from them their problems, in the sense of— yeah, and that's a good example, is if someone's running late and you know, that's a problem that they've created, or that that's their problem. And if I suddenly say, you know what, I'm going to change all of these things now to make it work, that then becomes my problem.

Tommy: So I feel good, I think, today from a couple of—

Mason: what were the hard conversations?

Tommy: Hard conversations? I don't really want to get into nothing serious.

Mason: Themes?

Tommy: Oh, work-related, you know, office-related. Yeah, needing to sort of make some changes, wanting to sort of share those with somebody so it's news to somebody, or it's forming a new direction with somebody I'm working with. And so I even found those— they're not big, and that's why I don't want to bother getting into them. But on the scale of big, they're very small. Yeah, but on the scale of my norm, they're not. Yeah, they're, they're outside of my norm. So, but you definitely feel good. I was thinking, it's like, you know, the video I made about rejection therapy. A friend of mine, it's not an original concept, but Jules Lund was— I made this video where he's telling me this, this concept of rejection therapy. Go out and actually find rejection so that you build up your muscle to not feel as bad when you are rejected. And so in the video, I'm going around asking— I can't remember— asking people random stuff. Can I have a free coffee? Um, can I have a lift? Yeah, can I use your phone to call somebody? And a lot of these people saying no, and I know that they're gonna probably say no, but it's still a bit fucking confronting.

Josh: There's the, the common one that made the rounds in Silicon Valley was, um, asking for a percent off at your cafe. So have you— did you do that one at all?

Tommy: I asked for free coffee.

Josh: Yeah, no, so I took it the full— yeah, the Silicon Valley way. It's like, hey, would I be able to get 10% off?

Mason: That's cool.

Tommy: I heard I got, you know, James Altucher.

Josh: Yeah, does he do—

Tommy: he is from New York, he's got a podcast, The James Altucher Show.

Josh: No, actually, I don't know.

Tommy: Interesting guy, I quite like him. Got on, got on to him years ago through Tim Ferriss or something like that. One of his things is sit in the wrong seat and you know it's the wrong seat on a fucking airplane. Okay, so you can imagine the anxiety. You would hate that.

Josh: Yeah, well, just don't be a dumb cunt.

Tommy: The point is get uncomfortable, and that's what rejection therapy made me feel. And I documented it, and, um, I thought around the game of like the hard conversations.

Josh: I would be so— just going back to the— I'll be like sweating bullets. Like, not only is this guy in my seat but he's fucking sweating apes.

Tommy: But if you treat hard conversations like a game, and so it's like you build up a quota and not having a conversation for the sake of it. Josh, you gotta fucking talk to you about your t-shirts. Get fucked.

Josh: No, there's definitely— I, yeah, I think there is something in like feel— an equivalent would be a very shit equivalent, cold showers. Going towards yesterday, I was like, you know what, I'm going to start this cold shower thing again because I was getting a bit achy and it really sort of helps with inflammation. And I just went towards it. I was like, you know what, I'm just gonna like fucking— I know, you know, the bits where you know where it's a bit like, oh, you know, when it fucking hits my chest, it's gonna feel really cold, or things like that. Just going towards it and going, where is the— where, where's the most resistance right now in my body? Where am I trying to pull away from, from the shower? And I'm gonna fucking put that part in.

Tommy: It's mental toughness, because I'm sure that the person who is somewhere where you want to be, whether that's anything, any career or professional endeavor, is probably the person having more hard conversations or has been through a lot of them.

Josh: How do you, um, you know, you're talking about having a good day, the equation of a good day, like what is a, um Let's just talk about that a little bit more. I want to understand it. So it's— did you know, at what point did you know it was a good day?

Tommy: To be honest, if I had been surfing this morning and doing fuck all and hanging out with my family, it'd be a better day. But on the scale of working, it feels like a good day. And I still feel like it's— I could— I feel— I think what the reason I brought it up is because I still feel like it's on the verge of a shit day, but I'm choosing it to be a good day based on, you know, getting a bunch of stuff done, ticking a bunch of boxes of work I need. I'm in a space where I have stuff going on that necessarily— it fills up my day, so I'm busy and I'm doing things that I like enough that it could fall apart, but my mindset is feeling like, no, I've got this. You know, I'm choosing this to be a good day. And I'm not saying it's a good day because I fucking— positive affirmation, just saying it. I genuinely feel inside like you— I think you could relate. For you is like you're busy and you're feeling like stuff's moving and you're feeling like you're taking stuff in a good direction. But I could— and my— the reality is it could be shit tomorrow. Yeah. And shit meaning I could feel like I don't have my shit together.

Josh: Well, I think like the paradox that I find interesting is that I will, if for instance, like going away or something, like doing something like where I'm just meant to be relaxing. Normally, before every time I go away, I have like a slight fucking amount of anxiety.

Tommy: Yeah.

Josh: Like a bit of, like I'm a bit painful to be around for probably, it's normally the morning of. Happens on Sundays. I don't know why, but like on Sundays, if I've got like, if I'm not doing work or if I've got nothing productive that I feel planned, I, um, I think I start thinking about all the things that I need to be doing in regards to like, okay, I need to rebuild this part of my website, or I want to like, I go into, or I want to learn this thing. I struggle with the, um, having a free day.

Tommy: Maybe that's the plan thing, like we've been talking about recently. Having, having a strategy takes away the worry that you don't know what you're doing.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: So when you have a plan or a fucking goal or a strategy to do something, it means that you can fall back on that. And we're even— because there's no doubt that you will feel anxiety or some kind of stress at some point.

Mason: Yeah.

Tommy: But you can then go No, I've got that. This is the day that I'm meant to fucking have off and everything, all the ducks are in line, if you want to call it that.

Josh: It's being defined, it's being deliberate and being, having a really defined thing. So, days that I really love is when I go for a walk or like do like a long, like a hike, like say doing 4 hours or 5 hours of walking. I feel like it's been a good reset. But the other thing I notice is I just, if I have, the older I get, the more I realise that when I eat poorly, I feel like shit.

Tommy: Oh, don't you?

Josh: Yeah. I can't work out, I can't work out though, whether it's the food that I'm consuming or whether it's the mindset. So, I think it could be a bit of both, but it's that thing of, It's probably what people feel when they have a big drinking session or if they take drugs or whatever. It's the day after self-loathing, being like, I'm not being the best person that I can be.

Tommy: I think there's a bit of both. Taking drugs, you literally— like, if you take ecstasy, yeah, your serotonin, which is serotonin, yeah, serotonin is what, um, the happy drug releases. The chemical reaction is to your body to, to produce and release it. And so you actually drain that, and so you literally feel like a fucking piece of shit. Yeah, there would probably be— I mean, you could be coming down from a sugar high or something like that, but I think it's also the mindset. It's triggering your mindset. But I feel like my body doesn't function. Yeah, I've been eating pretty shit food.

Josh: What are your defaults? What do you think? I'll give you two examples of things that I think, uh, straight away, two things that I do is I'm like, I've got nothing to wear, no fucking clothes to wear. Like, I'm like, shit feels tight, I'm not comfortable, I'm not fucking buying. Like, uh, or just like, I don't— it's not even, um, these are signs, psychological, but psychological too, because it's like a tight t-shirt can feel good when you're feeling lean, right?

Tommy: Yes.

Josh: But a tight t-shirt when you're feeling a bit fucking pudgy, yeah, doesn't feel good. But the funny thing is, it's like a, you know, when you fucking do that little pull on your t-shirt, like, I just don't feel fucking good in this. So that's one thing is I feel like, even though the interesting fact of it is, and this is where anchoring and stuff I guess comes from, so the idea that we've sort of, you know, you can anchor, uh, if you think about anchoring from a pricing point of view, it's like if I tell you something's costs $100, then you might say, uh, I want to pay $90 for it. Or if it's $105 at the store, you wouldn't necessarily blink. But if it's $700, you're like, your anchor point was set at $100, that seems ridiculous. Yeah, yeah, anchoring. The reason I say this is because I've noticed it with my weight. So I am lighter than what I was 12 months ago. I'm losing weight every single year for the last sort of 7 years or whatever. Interestingly though, the point in which I start feeling like sluggish and overweight is reducing. So when I used to feel like when I was above 90, I felt like I've gone too far. Now it's like 85, like if I go over 85, I'm starting to feel it. When the reality was like, say I'm sitting at maybe fucking 87 at the moment, this time last year I would have been sitting at 88, but then could go to like 89, 90.

Tommy: So one of them's the feeling of your clothes. What's another one?

Josh: Oh, so, uh, buying stuff. I feel like I, I think, fuck, I need, uh, I need new runners or I need, uh, exercise shorts. So I go a little bit e-commerce. I think that there's a bit which is the, um, It's the psychological—

Tommy: I go a bit e-commerce.

Josh: I go a bit e-commerce. I've bought like, uh, in this stage I've bought a Garmin.

Tommy: Anyone's ever said that sentence? Fucking, I go a bit e-commerce. I honestly don't think there'd be many people on Earth that have used—

Josh: I reckon someone has probably— I have thought about this actually, you know, you say something and you think, I wonder when— I wonder if someone around the world right now said the same thing. Is that fucking— blows your mind a little bit. Anyway, so that's the thing. I've bought a Garmin watch before, so it's probably the classic case of retail therapy.

Tommy: So these are triggers or signs that what?

Josh: These are signs that I'm having some anxiety around probably weight.

Mason: Okay.

Josh: So do you— what do you— what are your, um—

Tommy: I was not— usually most years I do like a challenge with some friends, and when I'm at the 8-week mark of not drinking and fucking lowering my carb intake My— I know the feeling when you say your stomach. Yeah, it's like I literally feel slimmer in my gut. That makes me feel mentally like, oh fuck, this feels great. Like I've talked about on this, like the feeling of being fit is fucking phenomenal.

Josh: Well, the thing, the thing that I, uh, have been doing, which I don't know if it's a good strategy or not— I think it is—

Tommy: thinking about—

Josh: exactly, no, thinking about when you eat the food Think about it inside you. Yeah, think about like—

Tommy: It's not like downing a Big Mac.

Josh: Yeah, just saying, just say like imagining that's going through your, you know, down your esophagus, all that sort of thing.

Tommy: It's amazing how we talk about this and we know this and we don't fucking do it.

Josh: Yeah, well, that's the thing. Like, I can't believe I saw fucking Whipper is doing the 28, Sam Wood 28 thing.

Tommy: He's a famous radio personality.

Josh: Whipper is, and Sam Wood is. Ex-reality show host PT.

Tommy: He actually has a PT studio where Craig Harper had his very first—

Josh: at Woodshed.

Tommy: Yeah, where that is was Harper's.

Josh: Oh, interesting.

Tommy: That's where I did my first experience, personal training experience.

Josh: Did they do a big fit out and shit with it, or was it—

Tommy: it was already huge and then they just rejigged it.

Josh: Yeah, the, um, but I saw Whipper was looking lean and shit. And but it just got me thinking, all of this shit's the same. Like, it really is just all the same. It's like, fuck, what an interesting model that we're in, which where it's like, I'll tell you what to eat and then you give me money. It's like, it's weird. It's so fucking dumb because like, literally have like, uh, some chicken, some, some like lean chicken, have some broccoli. Have like— it would be so fucking easy to like— if, if there was no emotion, if you took emotion out of it and someone just said, hey, this is what you can eat and you had to do everything they said, of course.

Tommy: It's the main thinking of when I was a PT, is like, these assholes just fucking listen to me. Yeah, but— and that's the mindset of a young personal trainer that doesn't understand the psychology with psychology, and I still don't, and most PTs don't, but Yeah, there's so much more to it, which is— I think it extends beyond that. And you know, when you're in a good space, you're probably eating quite well, and you know, you're making good choices.

Josh: It only takes me a day, and this is like the amazing— this is why—

Tommy: and you're ripped.

Josh: Exactly. This is why it shows how much of its mindset and stuff. If I have one day of good eating, I feel way better in every regard. Um, and so that's, uh, It's a weird fucking thing when we, but I feel like for me, and this is the unhealthy part of it, is it's like I need to go pretty bad to then shock myself into like, I'm not doing that for a while, for a while. Like, Easter, I didn't go fucking crazy. Like I literally—

Tommy: 6,000 calories was yesterday's.

Josh: 6,000 were, I guess.

Tommy: I didn't go that bad. What the fuck's that?

Josh: But the thing was, the thing is, It wasn't even like, it was just like random. It was just like, what can I eat? What's in the fucking— It wasn't even like an enjoyable, like it was very interesting. It wasn't like we had really delicious stuff. It's like, oh, this is the best fucking, this is my favourite meal, so I'm gonna have it. It's like the shit Easter eggs that are left over and just like, oh, what flavor? Who gives a fuck? Oh, it's just the green and yellow fucking lollies are left. Give them to fucking, give it to me.

Tommy: Give them to me! Yeah, um, I responded to a guy today. We'll just finish that one up, move away from—

Josh: yeah, um, you did a good job of talking healthy stuff without getting your normal—

Tommy: yeah, I think we're on the same— I really wanted to get into you about, um, your weight in, in terms of like your view on the amount, because if you start dropping under 86 kilos, you're gonna look like a crack addict.

Josh: No way. I mean, it'd be because the muscle is big.

Tommy: 85 is low. Like, you should be 90 kilos, I think, a solid, like, a healthy frame. If you were moving a bit, like, you don't— you're 6 foot fucking 3 almost. Like, to be a— even if you were kind of a bit skinny, 85 is good.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: So don't worry too much about that. You're looking good, mate. I love you.

Josh: Thank you. I know, and I'm wearing horizontal stripes, so it means a lot. You know, horizontal stripes make you look fatter.

Tommy: Fuck, I got so many t-shirts with horizontal stripes.

Josh: Really? No, you're fine though. I'm all right.

Tommy: Um, see, I got a bit fucking anxious.

Josh: Can I just quickly tell you about, uh, I'm going viral on YouTube at the moment.

Tommy: Oh yeah, yeah. Um, this could bring it up 4 more views.

Josh: Yeah, it's, uh, no, so yeah, what's that done to you?

Tommy: Because you, you seem like you have these shifts and it's, and it's very results-driven on the other end. So if you don't get affirm— if you don't get fucking what's the word, reward from on the other side, you're not, you're a bit disheartened, but as soon as you get a bit of reward.

Josh: Yeah, well, this is the thing. So like YouTube, I haven't done a video in 2 months and I still need to get my 110 videos this year.

Tommy: Mate, you haven't even done a video about our show.

Josh: No, because I let you do that one.

Tommy: That was great.

Josh: We'll definitely do one.

Tommy: I'd like you to do one.

Josh: But I'll do ones on podcasting in general. But The, the, uh, my video that I did which was called Tidy Up Your Digital Life, I remember I told you at the time, I'm like, I'm doing this for the algorithm. I said I'm going to call it digital, I'm going to call it Tidy Up Your Digital Life and I'm going to put digital minimalism in it. I'm going to tag it up, I'm going to do it all. Sure enough, um, someone, a YouTuber, did a digital minimalism video over the weekend, posted it, and my video has been sort of the recommended video after it.

Tommy: Yeah.

Josh: So, it's had like over 80 likes. The video's had over 80 likes. It's got over 2,500 download— watches. So, I think views. So, I reckon it's going to hit 10,000 views by the end of the week.

Tommy: Yeah, but so, what does that mean for you? What's it doing to—

Josh: Well, I'm a YouTuber now. No, it means— uh, sorry for burping. What it does mean is I, um— what it means is that the things that we're doing— so the one sort of perception I had on YouTube was, uh, you'll know within a short period of time the success of a video. And I've had two cases My Goodbye Philippines film had 50,000 views in November. It currently has 130,000 views. So, it got picked up in the algorithm and fucking got heaps of people watching it. Similarly with this, this only had 300 views a week ago and now it's got 2,500 and it's gonna hit 10,000 by the end of the week, I think. What it's telling me is it's like I'm, um, I don't think I need to do— I definitely don't need to do 2, 3 videos a week. But if I just focused on when I have a good— when I have solid ideas, because I feel like I do have a lot of them, without the core focus being algorithmic sort of goals, because I think that what happens is a lot of these YouTubers are purely playing the algorithm and they put out sort of half-assed videos. So for me, it's about elevating each one. So where I stand at the moment is you're coming out of retirement. I'm coming out of retirement for YouTube. I'm back, guys. And, uh, maybe the other thing too is, you know, I get obsessed with search engine optimization, SEO, and stuff. I'm doing a big push on Josh Jansen and just cleaning up my online presence. So I'm going to, uh, just, uh, there's Derek Sivers who I filmed an interview in Auckland with The Minimalists and Derek Sivers. Derek Sivers created CD Baby.

Tommy: Still don't know what it is, but anyway, you've said about 40 times.

Josh: Fucking cool dude. Anyway, trust you. He's got a section on his website called /now, dereksivers.com/now. He's got a website called nownownow, I think it is, 3 nows, .com. And what it is is that nownownow site is a directory of everyone's now pages. So you can submit your now page. And what it is is it's a description on what you're doing what you're doing now, what your focus is, what your purpose is. So for instance, you have your about page, which is sort of a bit of a biography. But the thing for me, it would be like, right now I'm working on the daily talk show, I'm, uh, uh, you know, building my business Full Stack Films, I'm currently planning this 3-month trip to Europe, all that type of thing. So you put it in that now section.

Tommy: I like that.

Josh: Anyway, so I'm I haven't updated my Josh Janson site in ages.

Tommy: Nor have I. Can we have like a day, a Sunday or something, where we're just like, it's committing to that? Yeah, because I, I'm fucked.

Josh: Well, I helped Till, my mate, uh, who's a listener of the, the show, do it when he was starting off going from being a soundo, so doing sound for broadcast, to sort of being in sort of film, doing corporate videos. I helped him So if you type in Till Spielhoff into Google, it's all his video type stuff. So it sort of creates the expectation. So if a client Googles him, they're going to say, oh, he's a filmmaker. This is what you're like.

Tommy: Just saying, nerds like me.

Josh: Exactly.

Tommy: Yeah, I mean, I've got not a bad digital presence. Um, let's just finish off. Um, got an email from a bloke, Michael. Hi Tommy, just wondering if, uh, as a business person in the Media Coaching Institute space, you'd be interested in finding out how to leverage websites for success. Blah blah blah, fucking didn't even read the rest, moved on. Get an email back. Oh yeah, Michael, the next day: Hi, just confirming you received my last email and whether you're free for a quick chat. Look forward to hearing from you. He's got a number, he's in Australia, um, his business is called digitalthing.com.au. On the fucking email it had an unsubscribe button. I thought to me, fuck me, I haven't subscribed to any of his bullshit. Yeah, I wrote back to him today 'Not sure how you got my email, but I certainly didn't subscribe. Understand you were just hustling, but in my eyes, this cold call style is a bit gross. What I am curious about is if this approach actually works?' Question mark. Thanks, mate.

Josh: Do you write back?

Tommy: Not yet, but I'm curious to know because I get a few of those.

Josh: Yeah, well, they're literally putting you in a sales funnel. So the annoying thing is that they have— a similar thing happened to me with a a Brisbane business that offers like fucking digital advertising and stuff for businesses and can help with organic search results. And I decided to have a conversation with them. So they called, they called, they called my office line. I answered and I just spoke to him for a bit. So he sent me this email. Anyway, I I opened— What happened? Oh, yeah. So, he— I told him, "Hey, I'm not available at the moment. Call me in a few weeks." So, he sends me an email being like, "Hi, Josh. Thanks for the chat. You know, as you said, I'll call you on this date," basically. Anyway, that date hadn't come. It was still a week away. And I opened up his email because I was going through archiving, like cleaning up my inbox., and, uh, he tried calling me straight after it.

Mason: Mixmax.

Josh: Yeah, so he's using— and like, Mixmax is what I used to use, but all of the— there's a bunch of these services, and this is what this guy is doing too. So he saw that you opened the email, and then it would have triggered that if you open your— the email and don't respond within a certain amount of hours, he will then send another email. Yeah. And so I've had cases where I've gotten 4 fucking emails from people without even responding to them, and they'll just sort of— and you'd end up through this whole fucking funnel.

Tommy: When, when I have a robot and you have a fucking robot, your robot can talk to my fucking robot, but I'm not a robot, so fuck off.

Josh: It's literally like the Homer Simpson episode where he gets the answering machine. Yeah, so the auto dial is fucking— is literally what this fucking guy's doing.

Tommy: Curious to know though if it works. I'm sure it does.

Josh: It's like, what's this? It's economies of scale. So it's this idea that, okay, um, 1 in 100 people will do it. So what they're doing, they're probably scraping stuff. So they're scraping, you know, directories and shit.

Tommy: It's actually— I don't think it's legal to put someone into a subscription without them actually signing it. I think that's what's happened, or he's just put it there. As I did think when I clicked onto the unsubscribe, because I was like, what the fuck's that? Took me to a page And then I was like, look at the domain. I was trying to work out— it wasn't really— it just had this big unsubscribe button. So I actually thought maybe that's a tactic as well, to see who clicks through to the unsubscribe and then who does or doesn't do it. Because I didn't do it because I didn't know if I'd actually subscribed, and I thought, seems a bit dodgy. Anyway, I'll keep you updated on what Michael has to say for himself. Yeah, um, but I gotta go pick up Bodhi, my son.

Josh: Yeah, I've gotta start walking. I'm meeting Bree. We're gonna have grilled for dinner. We're gonna do the Bun-less. As a salad thing. Did we? Have we done that too?

Tommy: We had bun-less burgers.

Josh: No, we didn't.

Tommy: They were nice.

Josh: No, you and I did the low carb, but Bree had the bun-less and it looked fucking good. So we're going to do that. Guys, thanks for listening. We had a bunch of listeners yesterday, which was good. Bit of an uptake in listeners.

Tommy: Could it be your digital minimalism? People seeing— Fuck, you should have seen him. He was like a puppy dog that saw potential treats come out of a bag.

Josh: This is great. No, but we didn't— from all the fucking extra listeners, No new reviews. If you've listened, we know that there's lots of you who are listening to every single episode. So, if you've listened to more than 10 and you don't think we're a pain in the arse.

Tommy: You know who you are from Japan.

Josh: Yeah, exactly. Japan. Can you not say it like— I'm so sorry, Japan. If you are enjoying what we're doing, please subscribe and actually fuck off the subscribe. You're already subscribed. Just leave a review through the podcast app. Or on, uh, on iTunes. And I know, Michelle, you've said you haven't, um, you don't use fucking iTunes and Apple, so we'll, we'll let you off the hook. Everyone, it's The Daily Talk Show. Thanks for listening.

Mason: Great.