Self fulfilling prophecy

Tommy: It's a Daily Talk Show, episode 43. Tommy Jacket.

Josh: Boom tish.

Tommy: Yeah, boy.

Josh: I wish we had sound effects for this show.

Tommy: I know. Well, eventually we'll get there where we have like a soundboard and I can—

Josh: yeah, it would be cool. Yeah, but you start just fucking really working them. You, you outworked them. I outworked—

Tommy: can you put your fucking phone—

Josh: sorry, sorry—

Tommy: on silent?

Josh: Sorry, guys.

Tommy: The, um, oh, actually That's come off your computer, hasn't it?

Josh: It did, so I just muted the computer. So, I do have my phone on silent.

Tommy: I've ended up turning off messages on my computer because I just get a bit panicked around showing people your computer and then just having some message about being like, "Hey, you still dealing with that fuckhead client?" Or just even like the less— just more like public displays of affection, like I miss you, Bubby, from Bray or something.

Josh: I embrace those now. I'm just like, whatever, I got a fucking family, I love them to death. So I'm a bit— I'm a big fucking softie.

Tommy: Yeah, great.

Josh: I think, I think there was a time where I was trying— would have been a bit more afraid, but me and Campton, we fucking— we drill into each other about like the loviness. This is my best mate, he's got a kid and a little baby that's nearly the same age as Bodhi, a couple of months before. But he's been with his missus for ages and we're just like, have you got enough brownie points to come out for a beer this weekend?

Tommy: I think that the— it's probably even less that and more the, you left your fucking undies on the floor again. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's one of the ones.

Josh: The what you think it's like versus what it's actually like.

Tommy: Yeah, exactly.

Josh: It's, uh, relationships do change over time. It's all that just initial sort of Um, what is it called?

Tommy: Not grooming.

Josh: So really grooming. It's a really bad—

Tommy: How?

Josh: It's a really bad—

Tommy: Building a cult?

Josh: I was just being honest, mate. It was the word that was on my mind. It's not the right— Um, courting. Like, that's the old school courting somebody.

Tommy: Sure. And a little bit better than grooming.

Josh: Yeah. You go to court for grooming.

Tommy: Groping, I think. Yeah, a bit of both. So, um, yeah, no. So what do you think of the The elements, huh?

Josh: I think it's, it's you put in a lot more effort in the early days and there's so much more magic flying around in that time.

Tommy: Well, there's firsts. I think that we love, and that's probably why having a kid is so cool, because it's a way of like emulating, you are simulating firsts again. You're just getting all these opportunities of like, there's not going to be another time that you have a kid that's going to be walking for the first time. Yeah.

Josh: It's amazing. I even think, um, like for people who haven't been in relationships for quite some time.

Tommy: Yeah.

Josh: And the ones that are single that have frequent hookups is like, there's a danger in that. I've always thought this because there's so much emotional, um, explosiveness between, you know, it's like chemistry for the time you meet someone out and you, you know, you hook up with them, you go on that first date. And so there's, Like that's a heightened level of consciousness, like from those moments, right? That then it, that stuff does dissipate.

Tommy: It's almost what you're describing is like diabetes, type 2 diabetes or something. No, literally like where it's this, where you've, um, they've fucked their insulin. Like they've had all of these spikes that it goes completely out of, out of whack. Yeah.

Josh: But from being in long-term relationship, now you're in one.

Tommy: Yeah.

Josh: I don't know if it's speaking for myself here, but you grow stronger and it just is this completely different reward.

Tommy: It's a different, it's a different game that you're playing too, right?

Josh: It goes from, um, but I mean the, the actual feeling of it, like the strength between a relationship, like that's more rewarding, I think, than those initial really heightened emotional responses from Meeting that person and locking eyes and kissing them for the first time, that all goes.

Tommy: Yeah. Well, it's like at the beginning you're doing like a PR, like a bit of a show, right? It's like communicating how great you are or why you're a great partner. And then when you're at where we're at, it's like we've gotten to a point where they we know each other's flaws and we're still deciding that we want to be on this journey. And that's like, that's super rewarding, right? Because then it's like there's no hiding the truth.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: And I think that that's when, like, I've definitely noticed that Bri and I have sort of merged closer together in the sense of what we're like personality-wise too. I think that obviously We've talked about the proximity effect before, you know, the people you hang around, you can't get any sort of more—

Josh: Closer, yeah.

Tommy: Any closer than that. Than you and I. Exactly. 100%. And that's why I brought you here today.

Josh: No.

Tommy: What's the— What changes do you know? Like, what's the pinpoints? What are you— Where do you see it?

Josh: Moving in together, getting through the initial stage of that. And then it, then it changing to be like this awesome awesomeness. It's not the codependency, but it's like you do rely on each other. You've got each other's back. It's so nice. Like, yeah, I see myself, the how restless I was as a single person, and I feel like I just have got my shit together with my partner.

Tommy: And I guess it's that feeling of being on the lookout.

Josh: Yeah, I was always fucking, so he's ready.

Tommy: Yeah.

Josh: And I think—

Tommy: Fucking half chub all the time.

Josh: Josh, you got together with Bree when you were 16.

Tommy: Yeah, it was early days. But I've seen it with friendships. I've seen that where it's like, I used to—

Josh: The half chub?

Tommy: The half chub on Friends. No, I was always just like, fucking ready to make a friend any moment. It's just like, I'd be like, okay, I've got these 4 things that we need for this friendship to work. One of them is we need to be following each other on Instagram. Oh, no, no, no. You just, I feel, and it happens so subconsciously.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: But I realised that I was like really seeking that out, seeking out friendship. And I just don't give a fuck anymore. Like I, and it's, it means that when I make a friend, it's always like a bit of a surprise. I'm like, oh, that's cool that that worked out. Whereas I feel like I would previously got, if I was like, okay, you know, just like say, for instance, if you go, you go to an event where you don't know many people in there, I feel like there's that heightened pressure of it's like, I need to fit in, I need to make friends. And then that's sort of how you gauge.

Josh: What do you like doing by yourself?

Tommy: I like the opposite. The opposite.

Josh: Well, you don't drink, so like going to Why?

Tommy: Because you love drinking by yourself?

Josh: I actually don't mind having a beer at a bar by myself. Like if I was at the airport and I'm at that bar sitting, I don't do it a lot, but if I was overseas, I like it. I mean, the opposite is, and that's I do it a lot, is have coffee by myself.

Tommy: Yeah. I think the being on a plane where I'm not talking to anyone, I really like. Like I've noticed that about me where if someone sits next to me, I used to probably be a little bit more open, but I literally go, I actually act super introverted.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: I just don't like, I was thinking about it yesterday, literally did not look at the guy next to me. It was funny because I was watching him emulate some of the shit that I was doing.

Josh: No, what do you mean?

Tommy: Like I, I, because, you know, when you've travelled a bit, you end up like having these little fucking hacks that you'll do, right? So, it's like I got a cup of water And what I used to always do was I would like put down the tray and put the water there. I'm like, it's going to take me fucking 10 seconds to drink this and then it's done.

Josh: Yeah. Yeah.

Tommy: So, I get my cup of water. He gets his, he puts his sort of, what the fuck's that word? Tray down.

Josh: On the tray, yeah.

Tommy: Puts a tray down and then I don't have the tray down. I like drink the water and then I just sort of squish it a little bit and put it on in the pocket in front of me. And then you just see him sort of slow, like, slowly put up his thing without even putting on it and doing the same thing. I was like, yeah, boy, I'm just like influencing this guy. I don't even have to look at him. But no, I think that I definitely play that role constantly where it's just, yeah, being on my own in those moments are great.

Josh: You're in a chaos, but it's quiet, but you're having a quiet time.

Tommy: Yeah, it's just the, um, yeah, the, the ability, just like, obviously it'd be better if other people weren't around too, but it's just a reality. But I think it's because I can switch off in those moments, close my eyes, have no distractions. But, um, I never feel like I'm alone anymore with phones.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: And that's probably why I've mentioned the plane, because when I walked this morning and getting coffee For the—

Josh: You're a big walker and Instagrammer.

Tommy: Yeah.

Josh: I've noticed even when we're together. It's a bit of a routine.

Tommy: Gives Bray the shits. But yeah, I'll, yeah, I was walking, I was like, I'm not going to go on my phone. But then I realised halfway through, I'm like, to be fair, I'm like listening to a YouTube video right now through my phone on my headphones. Like I'm not being present at all.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: Yeah. The, The Instagram thing is, uh, it's just switching off.

Josh: I definitely don't do enough of it. Um, I mean, in the car I'm listening, I'm calling people. It's like you almost want to distract yourself while driving.

Tommy: Well, you distract yourself from your own voice, I think, too. Like, I, um, will be listening to stuff to give, give me focus. One thing that I heard, which was in that Habits book, not Essentialism, but the One, like better than before. It's like about replacing. I think it was in that book around like replacing habits. So, if you go to do something that you don't want to be doing, so negative type stuff. Actually, no. Who was it?

Josh: Pinch yourself.

Tommy: No, no, no. Don't pinch yourself. Oh, no. It was— I know where I heard it from. I was watching a Seth Godin video last night. It's got like 3 letters. It's like a type of therapy. But essentially what they get you to do is, say for instance, if you are constantly looking at something online, like say for instance, like fucking looking at Instagram, you want to look at Instagram less, right? Every time that you have that moment, you need to replace it with something else. You need to retrain. And so for me at the moment, I've gotten some of those sort of things that I would consider slightly negative habits. And I'll replace them with other ones. For instance, it's not the best habit switch at the moment, is when I'm thinking about, say, going on Instagram, I'll open up New York Times, I'll read an article. I realise that that's still fucking— the news is the worst, but it's that first day. It is that thing of like when you get into line somewhere, opening up like iBooks and actually reading a few paragraphs or a few pages out of a book.

Josh: It's chipping away at that. It's like the video about the robot coffee machine that's like a legit robot arm making coffee. And first time you go there, you kind of look at it, but most people end up just being on their phones. So then it's just a robot making a coffee by itself without the attention.

Tommy: So another—

Josh: yeah, it's weird. At least, you know, coffee shop, you get the interaction. But I was talking to my friend yesterday, PK, He's an absolute legend. And I called him about some business advice around hiring someone.

Tommy: Yeah.

Josh: And we kind of just got talking and went away from the business stuff. He asked about Bodhi, how my boy was. And he said, with a, with a, so my son's middle name is Valentine. He was born on Valentine's Day in 2017. So, we called him. And we, we called him Bodhi Valentine Jacket, which is his surname, Jacket. And he said, PK said to me, fuck, it's a self-fulfilling prophecy with that name. And I was thinking about, and I said to him, do you reckon there's anything in that around names? Yeah, you know, it's like, oh, you, it's such a rock star name, or it's like, you know, does it, is there any merit to it? What do you reckon around the name?

Tommy: There's in the book Outliers by Malcolm Gladwell, they talk about hockey players, I believe in Canada. Essentially, it's like 80% of hockey players were born in like these 3 months.

Josh: Yeah, I've read that part. Yeah.

Tommy: And the reason it is, is because it's like those kids tend to be taller, they're older for their age group, they get more sort of attention, they're stronger, they get more sort of coach time, which leads to them being able to play professionally. There's also a bunch of— There was a— What was it called? Brain— Forgot the name of the podcast. It's got brain in the title, but they talk about— They did an episode around how if someone has the same name as you or birthday, we naturally like them more.

Josh: Interesting.

Tommy: And we connect, we create these connections that we don't even know that we're doing. So, there's a good chance that if someone's got a birthday that's close to you, you'll tend to like them more.

Josh: Interesting. And so, what about Bode's name? Do you think it— I mean, it's a standout name, I think. Absolutely.

Tommy: Yeah, I think that it's, yeah, definitely got that vibe. And I think that that's like, to be honest, that's a problem that we're seeing in regards to that unconscious bias thing when it's like, and when we talk about privilege, if we actually take a moment to think about that for a moment, how much it might influence Bodhi, imagine if you are a someone who's got an accent or who has a name that's specifically from a country. I know that I've caught myself in moments where I heard an accent and doing a deal with someone and I was, I thought, okay, I put them in a bit of a box. I'm like, okay, culturally this is how they negotiate. So, I'm going to be ready for this. When I was selling, I didn't tell you this, when I sold my first thing on Gumtree.

Josh: That's right.

Tommy: Thank you very much. Put it on, put this mixer up for $800, which was a decent amount of coin because I probably paid like $1,100 from it like 3 and a bit years ago. So it's like, it's, that's, that's a good chunk of coin if I was to get that. Anyway, the guy, I had someone offer $650. They're being a pain in the ass. This one guy called up, he said $550. I'm like, nah, no way. And he's like, the most I could do is $600. I'm like, okay. Contacted the guy who said $650 and he was like, oh, has the mixer got a case? Has it got this? I'm like—

Josh: Hard bastard.

Tommy: This fucking idiot. Fuck off. Yeah, I was like, fuck off. So I was like, I'm just gonna call up this other guy and say, if you're gonna be easy and you can come now, I'll sell it for $600. So I did that. He comes, he's with his mate. They, I just get, I have it at the, I'm holding it at the front. They came like 40 minutes away, from 40 minutes away. And they said, how do we know it's working? I'm like, okay, that's a fair question. So I'm like, oh, let's just go into my like apartment lobby and we'll plug it in. And they're like, okay. And so does it got a case? I'm like, no, it doesn't have a case. Like I said, they didn't have a case. I just said straight away, I'm like, I only wanted to do this if it was going to be easy. It all works. And they're like, okay. And they're like, oh, when did you buy it? I was like, you know, a few years ago or whatever. Like, okay. Like, they're like, okay, $550,000. I'm like, no. They're like, oh, we've got, we've got $550,000.

Josh: Yeah, solid bargaining.

Tommy: I was like, oh, well, that's fine. I just don't need to sell it now.

Josh: So you said this?

Tommy: Yeah. I said, cause they had done—

Josh: Ooh, you're a hard motherfucker nowadays.

Tommy: If they've gone 40, if they've driven 40 minutes, waste your fucking money then, right? So anyway, and the thing is that I was asking like, oh, what are you guys doing with the mixer? I'm like, are you like doing a podcast? And they're like, yeah, something like that. What does that mean? Well, what my vibe was that they're probably flipping this shit. So they're like, maybe they could get $700 from somewhere else.

Josh: Something like that.

Tommy: Yeah. Something like that was just such a weird fucking response.

Josh: That is. It's nothing like that. Yeah, it's something like that.

Tommy: Something like that. I was like, guys, do you even know what the fuck you're on about? But anyway, so I, um, he had $550 and they had their hands on at this point, they had the mixer and I just went to grab it. I'm like, oh look, um, as I said, I just wanted to make it as simple as possible, but $600 was the lowest I go. So, you know, have a nice day basically.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: And then the guy pulls out the other $50.

Josh: Yeah, he just kept it in his cheek.

Tommy: He's just like I fucking hate that shit.

Josh: I've done the same, but it's as in I've been the—

Tommy: You had the fuck— You had this on the— We talked about this on the podcast when you were selling your car for scraps.

Josh: Oh yeah, that cheeky.

Tommy: And the fucking guy who like, what was it, had a few hundred bucks or whatever on the thing and then he tried to—

Josh: Yeah, yeah. I mean, but that's negotiation. It's hard. See, you— But you're— I know your mindset behind that. You're just like not giving a shit. You deal with all these other idiots, so you'd almost pre had those feelings before. And then totally form the new feeling or the new belief around like, well, if he doesn't give me $600, I'm not fucking selling it.

Tommy: Well, the thing is that I think there's a few elements at play. One of them is the person who cares less wins.

Josh: Yes.

Tommy: Right. Because I was happy to be like, I don't need to fucking— I haven't driven here to drop it off. I don't give a fuck if you've just wasted your time. So there's that case. But the other thing about negotiation—

Josh: Did you say there was a case with it?

Tommy: No, there wasn't. No, no case. No case. But the other thing is that negotiation isn't just about like stand— like people think that what it is, is it's like standing by your price. You say a price, I say a price, we meet in the middle, stuff like that. It's called anchoring, right? So it's like by me saying a price initially, I'm anchoring in that price. So $800. And so that people can sort of do their math and say, oh, you know, We'll do $150 less, all that sort of thing. But the best negotiation doesn't necessarily just work that way. What people, I think, underestimate and what I've read about is compromise, like the— And Richard Branson talks about it. The best negotiation is coming up with a mutually beneficial result, not a result that tips in your favour. And this is the thing that's constantly missed, like people that you'll deal with where it's like, hang on, you are literally just fighting for you to get the cheapest thing, the best thing at the cheapest price. And that's not, that's not what it's about. So like, I'm always talking about, okay, well, what's— how can we make this beneficial for both of us? Because Richard Branson's point is, it's like, he'll end up working with people again. And if he's being fucking fair about it, it's a lot different to people.

Josh: So It's like jousting. You like, you don't want to—

Tommy: never—

Josh: someone's coming up, but it's— you don't— someone doesn't have to come off the fucking horse. Someone doesn't have to be on a horse. Isn't that jousting?

Tommy: Like, I want to use this analogy more. Go on, mate. Fucking—

Josh: let me just type in jousting. Do you know what jousting is though?

Tommy: I think— is it the mediaeval shit? It would have been at Crow Castle. I'm sure they do a bunch of jousting sticks.

Josh: Yeah, so it's like the two horses coming at each other with the knights on the horses. With the stick.

Tommy: Yeah.

Josh: And someone comes off and that person's a loser.

Tommy: Yeah.

Josh: And so it's like in the negotiation, it's, it could be more detrimental to have the loser that walks away with less money, and you've, you've, you've come away with saving all this cash, and so you're the winner. But it's even when, even in quoting for, for business.

Tommy: Yeah.

Josh: I think it's what you're, what you said about mutually beneficial. Yeah, so like I quoted a job yesterday that basically was enough money for my time and to bring in some people to help with it. Yeah, to give them a really solid product that wasn't massively over budget.

Tommy: And that's the thing, like I'm always fine with quoting when I can see the value in the, in the client, the benefit in the client. And whenever I've gone off that where I'm like, this client wants this thing, but I don't actually necessarily think it's beneficial, but they want it and they're going to spend the money, so I'll do it anyway. Like, they've always ended up being a clusterfuck because they've always sort of misinterpreted the value and then been disappointed. So I'll only enter into a project now if I can see, if I can make the connections and say this is the value and make it a fair transaction.

Josh: Let's bring it back to self fulfilling prophecy. Yeah, so the— I, I kind of had an idea what it meant, and I just looked up the, the meaning. Self-fulfilling prophecy is when a person unknowingly causes a prediction to come true due to the simple fact that he or she accepts it to come true. In other words, an expectation about a subject such as a person or event can affect our behaviour towards that subject, which causes the expectation to be realized.

Tommy: Yeah.

Josh: So, and you said before, fake, it's like fake it till you make it.

Tommy: Or like, I also think that it plays into that unconscious bias really well because the thing is, it's like if you're ready, say for instance, if you're like, if all attractive people are fucking egomaniacs and idiots, you will find anytime you meet them, you'll find a reason to fucking hate someone. It's very easy. To work that out. So, I think that I always try and watch myself when I'm thinking about these types of things, 'cause I'm like, I might actually influence, I might just put off that vibe. I might be looking out for a problem when there's not a problem.

Josh: This is interesting. I hadn't heard of this. A self-defeating prophecy, self— or a self-destroying prophecy is the complementary opposite of a self-fulfilling prophecy. 'a prediction that prevents what it predicts from happening.' What the fuck is that? Is also known as the prophet's dilemma. A self-defeating prophecy can be the result of rebellion to the prediction. Interesting. So that could be— so for me, it's like a self-fulfilling prophecy is you— it's almost a little bit before faking it till you make it. You, you You almost have to believe it. It's like, okay, maybe here's a self-fulfilling prophecy. Your belief that you will be successful enough and make money so you're not crazy worried about money now. And I feel the same way too, right? And so maybe that, and I totally believe that.

Tommy: The thing is, self-fulfilling prophecy, I'll give you like a real world example. It's when I lose weight, I will be happier, right? And the thing that if you to deconstruct it, where it's like, if I lose weight and I feel better about myself and then all of a sudden it removes all of this internal voice, I have more confidence, I'll start to project all of these things. Like so many of the things that we experience are more about what we're projecting rather than like, why is it that everyone seems to be a cunt when we're in a bad mood?

Josh: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Tommy: It's its own self-fulfilling prophecy. It's like when I'm in a bad mood and I'm driving, Dickheads seem to always be out on the road. But then I catch myself in moments when I'm in a good mood and I'll let who I would normally consider an absolute idiot for like, you know, how they're driving, I'll just let them in and it won't be a problem.

Josh: Yeah, it's nice. So, you're putting out and you're getting that back.

Tommy: Yeah.

Josh: Just before you're putting out cunt vibes.

Tommy: Exactly. Well, the other thing too is it's like if we realise this and this was to what I was talking about what Seth Godin was talking about, which is like these thought patterns. We can, if we know, if we can realise our triggers, we can identify them and we can actually like switch it up, right? So, it's like it could be as simple as if you're in a situation where you're frustrated with customer service, you have to smile. What happens if rather than getting mad, you just need to smile, and that physical— he didn't talk about this, but I'm sort of, yeah, about getting going from a bunch of different sort of theories. If all of a sudden you smile, you can change a moment like that, and you can potentially get some more perspective, and you're able to, um, you know, change, change your mood.

Josh: Well, I mean, there's a few things of that, um, the, uh, was it physiology changes psychology? So Actually smiling is on the way to feeling that emotion of what smiling means, you know, happy. I smile a heap. Makes me feel nice. I smile at people, they smile back. I had a woman in the gym once say, you're always smiling. I was like, fuck, is that a bad thing?

Tommy: Yeah. Well, you were probably being a bit of a creeper.

Josh: Nah, nah, nah.

Tommy: No, but it's definitely, you can get real fucking cynical. And you can see them from a mile away. Like, one of the things that I've been noticing is hanging out with different types of people, and I definitely put them in boxes, and it can serve me in some regards because I know how to speak to them. So, there's one type of archetype, which is an older dude who, whatever, for whatever reason, they've got a bit of a complex. They tend to be sort of talk about money a lot. They're very cynical. They're sort of, yeah, and they're they're driven by ego. So there's a real effort that I always make to like, oh geez, well you wouldn't fucking ever do that. Like you're not an idiot like that person. You know, it's the language that you start to use to sort of position and you can see that and it's, it comes from a gross place, which is like this desire of becoming liked, right? Like I know that the thing that you want to hear right now is this, this, and this, and I'll give it to you.

Josh: But it almost gives you a sense of power. I think. It's like, and it's not right. And I feel like I've done it before.

Tommy: But with the opposite.

Josh: You've outsmarted them because you know exactly their communication style.

Tommy: Yeah.

Josh: But it's like when people use that for the, for the wrong reason.

Tommy: Well, you see the insecurities in people, right? And I think that probably an immature approach and what I've done previously is you see the insecurity and you run to it. But what I tend to do is I see the insecurity and then I work with it. I'm like, okay, well, like if we, If we're working out that what they're really, you know, if you're on set with someone and they're saying all of these things, which is like, it's like the people who are really confident, they don't need to tell you they're confident, right? Because they just fucking, they've got swagger, they're confident, they're sorted. But if you've got someone who's constantly talking about the things they're doing and stuff like that, or trying to justify certain things, it straight away gives you a position, but it's powerful because then you can project that back onto them. So you can say, man, that's so fucking cool. Like, because my desire in those moments is just like, oh yeah, cool bro, like real cool story, because I know where you play. But what happens if you do the opposite? What happens if you say, oh, like, um, oh, that's super— oh, really? You know that person? What are they like?

Josh: Yeah, and you— but you're, you're almost stroking their ego.

Tommy: Yeah, but it's, um, I think that We can't expect people are going to be awakened or have some sort of phenomenal self-awareness within the moment that we're having a conversation. So, it's probably best for us to adapt to be able to get the— to be able to work together and make things happen.

Josh: So, have you had this happen to you? Do you think someone's stroked?

Tommy: Yeah. Oh, like there's definitely moments where I'm like, It only comes out when people are being too disconnected from what they're normally like. So you can tell when someone, or I like to think anyway, they've got an okay judgement in working out when someone is just saying something to make me happy. Yeah, it normally only comes out when I see them doing that to someone else, right? So for instance, I've worked with people where you'll see them be like, I can't believe this fucking person's done this, blah, blah, blah. And then you'll see them talking to them and they're all lovely and they're saying all these things. So then you sort of create this connection like, okay, fake, they're acting this way to them. And so then I'll always have that. And I'll, I feel like a lot of people can't recognise that in themselves. They probably don't even realise they're doing it. And you just sort of—

Josh: What do you think I do? Do you think I, Cause in my head, I don't like the thought of people that are fucking, they're like that. See someone like, bro, how are ya? Fucking idiot. Behind their back. It's like, not that I don't have, I don't have to be calling them a fucking idiot if I think they're a fucking idiot to their head. Their head.

Tommy: Well, I think the thing, it's also, it, you know what the thing is, it comes down to respect. When you and I first started hanging out, uh, that we didn't have that respect. We didn't have the mutual, mutual respect built up. So, I always got the sense of I'm like, okay, Tommy knows that I know a little bit of this technical stuff. But you didn't, I don't think when we were first hanging out, you really understood my business interests or that sort of thing. And maybe that's my own insecurity. I really didn't care.

Josh: I actually wasn't hanging out with you for that. But we weren't even hanging out.

Tommy: That was even pre-hanging out, right? That's like, Oh, let's catch up for a coffee and all that sort of thing.

Josh: But that's you putting worth on your, your sort of achievements and me and me. But, and I never didn't put worth on that cause I just didn't know. So I didn't know what I didn't know.

Tommy: Well, I think it's an actions thing, right? So like if you go back to, and this happens, it's like watching The Minimalists a couple of nights ago in Sydney. They had someone where they were like, that was saying that they always get used. And they're like, well, one good thing is that it means that you actually have some value to give. You only get used if you can bring value. And that I guess is one of the things where it's like our relationship at the beginning was a little bit transactional in the sense that if you, cause I remember going back, I'm like, what was our Tommy and my first conversations? And if you think about it, like, and it makes sense.

Josh: The only time I've ever done that is with a relationship.

Tommy: No, well, we were, I was doing it for content. But the thing is that what, You realise it's like actually at the beginning it's all this like serendipity, but it's very much like, hey man, can I, can we just have a chat about this? Or what would you do in this scenario? Like, and that's, it makes complete sense because especially as you become adults, it's like that's the only way that you're able to create that. And then you start to understand it starts in this sort of transactional space and then it slowly gets into a point where it's actually like, oh no, I like hanging out with this person.

Josh: Yeah. I mean, friendships take time. And how they build. It could be from that, or it could be from working together. So there's, you know, you're not competing, or it's like, it's, it's weird how relationships evolve. I like it. It's really interesting when you're like, fuck, that is nice. Look at the friendship I've formed from that little moment, chance meeting, or, you know, like it. I love that. I love that about life.

Tommy: Yeah. It is. And it's— I think that the only way that you can make it work is having that happiness and sort of security in yourself to be able to like let people in properly. I think you need to be authentic and you need to be— you need to be comfortable where you're at, because if you don't even know yourself, then you don't know what you're projecting. And if you don't know what you're projecting, you actually don't have any self-awareness of how other people see you.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: Once you have all that dialled in, it becomes a little bit easier, I think. Anyway, it's the Daily Talk Show, everyone. You can send us an email. We haven't gotten any today. Michelle did tell me that the package has been picked up, but I think that just means that it's at the PO box.

Josh: Because you haven't got anything.

Tommy: Well, I literally, I haven't walked and I haven't been able to leave the house because I've been working.

Josh: And you can't tomorrow. So, let's do it Monday. Let's see if we can get it Monday or Tuesday.

Tommy: Yeah, Monday. Yeah, we'll be able to get it and cheque it out, Michelle. I think it must be just hanging there. Hopefully, it's— It's gonna be okay. And feel free to send us an email anytime, hi@thedailytalkshow. We've had emails from B Mac, from Jodie.

Josh: Some random that made up a storey that was quite funny, appreciate that.

Tommy: Michelle, regular emailer, but we love the emails.

Josh: Yeah, it's awesome.

Tommy: Anytime that we can have stuff to talk about is appreciated because doing it fucking every day and having something to say can be hard work. But it's The Daily Talk Show, everyone. Have a great day.