Roaccutane and finding our niche

Josh: It is the Daily Talk Show, everyone. What up?

Tommy: Episode 41.

Josh: 41, where we're post-sugar high here. And, uh, let's start the ep, TJ, by painting a picture, because you know we love painting. Well, me specifically, I like painting pictures.

Tommy: I've come down hard. I feel depressed after the weekend's, um, sugar binge. But I'm sitting in my car um, right now in Collingwood.

Josh: It's all gone downhill, just hanging in the car.

Tommy: I've got my laptop on my lap, microphone just in my hand. It's, it's quite warm. I— now I've taken my shoes off because I hate getting uncomfortable when doing these podcasts, feeling hot. You just start getting irritated. I'll probably bite your head off. But, um, I'm in Melbourne and you're in Sydney.

Josh: Yeah, yeah, I, uh, and I do get super hot too. Like, just that slight technical issue that we had, no joke, I was fogging up because I just— I, I run like a computer.

Josh: I just don't know, it's like you've clicked render on something and my— all my fans are blowing. And I think my fans are my, like, anxious breathing. No, it's not sweating, but I just, like, I just feel a bit clammy. But which is interesting because it's only 21 degrees here in Sydney.

Josh: And since I arrived, it has just been pissing down the whole time.

Tommy: Oh, man. Sydney does rain a lot, but it's always like a bit warm as well. So, it's not as horribly cold like Melbourne. Just on the sweating thing, are you a sweater?

Josh: Yeah, absolutely.

Josh: I'm grossly so.

Josh: I think that and to a point where— Actually, you would have seen it When we— when I was, uh, filming the Lululemon stuff, uh, the other week when you were helping me, and remember the cycle, like filming the cyclist, and I was probably sweating more than they were.

Tommy: I just know that your nose sweats and I can see beads on it. I, I, and I, I remember training clients and people would sweat from weird spots. And I think like nose is probably, it's probably not the main common one. It's not probably not common. I had someone that would sweat from their knees.

Josh: Really? That's strange. Like the underneath of their knees, I guess? Like the kneecap. What the fuck? That's weird.

Tommy: So they'd be wearing pants and you'd see like a knee sweat patch.

Josh: It's weird, man. I reckon, I think it must be all connected to pores and stuff, right? Because the first, the only place that I really get sort of sunburnt, actually I get sunburnt everywhere. I should, I've learned from last, the last summer where I got absolutely annihilated by the sun that I am someone who burns. But my nose, like the pores and stuff start to raise and I get like this little, I have this one dot on my nose that will appear in the same spot every summer. If I haven't worn sunscreen, and it ends up like going a little bit scabby and gross.

Tommy: What do you mean, a spot? What do you mean?

Josh: Well, it's just almost like it looks like a pimple, and there's this desire to want to sort of squeeze it, and it just always ends up in this like horrible state where it's like, if I feel that it's elevated, I just need to not touch it and hope that it will be okay. Do you have any weird shit like that? Any sort of odd body functions?

Tommy: No, not really. I kind of feel like I'm left out if I don't have one. I really want one right now.

Josh: Come on, find one thing that you're a bit like, in summer you don't like, you got nothing to do.

Tommy: Nah, nah, I don't. I used to, um, nah, got nothing. I had bad pimples as a kid. So that was my weird phase.

Josh: Did you go on Roaccutane?

Tommy: Yes, I did. And the one thing I remember about that drug was the warning on the packet saying, um, may cause suicidal thoughts.

Josh: Yeah, fucking crazy, isn't it? I went full— I went on Roaccutane and I'm already a bit sort of wired and weird. And, um, you know, I remember I had a few, uh, cries, but outside of that, I think that was like partly just being a teenager.

Tommy: I'd like to think You can tell when someone's on the drug because the whole thing is, if you, if you don't know what Roaccutane is, it's like Roaccutane, Roaccutane, either way. Anyway, it, it makes them worse before they're better.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: And so it's—

Josh: yeah, go on, you go. Okay, I was just going to say you can't get it from a GP. You need to, uh, go to a specialist like a dermatologist, and they will, uh, prescribe it. But yeah, it will— it essentially dries you out from the inside. It causes— if you're a woman, it causes— you can't have kids during it because it can cause like a body, uh, what's that thing called where they come out with issues?

Josh: I can't remember.

Tommy: I mean, you can— yeah, yeah, it can—

Josh: baby deformities. Deformities is the word, I think.

Tommy: Yeah, there's about a million things on the packet, but I just, I just remember my pimples got so bad bad. And I was, I was already so self-conscious of it. When you're a kid, you're battling just who you are in the first place. But I've noticed this guy on YouTube, he's, um, he's like, he's on Instagram, he's got like 2 million followers, um, and he's definitely taking Ryakutai.

Josh: I think the tech, the tech dude, the one that wears a hat a bit.

Tommy: Nah, I know that guy you're talking about. This one, he, um, he's like Supreme King or something. He sells, he's just like a comedian or just like a young dude makes videos about nothing, and he sells all this merchandise that's like jewellery and shit. Anyway, super successful. But I was thinking, he's on camera constantly and his skin is so bad, and it makes— it just brings up memories of me when I was young, just thinking, that is like— I'm— he's pretty brave, man. Like, maybe he just doesn't have those feelings within him. He's just like, whatever, I don't care about it. It's not—

Josh: doesn't change.

Tommy: And he's on the early stages, 100%, like telltale signs along the, the sort of cheekbones. Nah, just welts over his cheekbones. Yeah, and his lips. Yes, his lips are very dry.

Josh: Yeah, it's, um, yeah, I remember, I remember it being something that was required a lot of thought before you, um, jumped into it. But people who had no idea would be like, man, have you tried Proactiv? It's like, you fucking idiot. Like, they've watched the infomercials. It's like this stuff, like Roaccutane, compared to all of that stuff, Roaccutane is like, it's terrible. Like, I don't know what it's— I don't know how it works. I don't know enough about medical shit to completely understand it, but it can't be, it can't be good.

Tommy: You're right, it dries you out. So I re— um I wanted to talk about beliefs because I think my, my belief around the pimple stuff was there must have been something like I was so transfixed on everyone thinking that everyone was looking at me and judging me. So yeah, I don't know if it's the, it's the right belief, but I've been thinking recently about beliefs and, and like how you can't— so a lot of them are bullshit. And I'm talking for myself here. Yeah, like, I remember having a belief when I was like 19 or something, and I was like, I'm not going to become a presenter, TV presenter, if I— or get a job in that space if I've got a girlfriend.

Josh: That one's outrageous. I think that the acne one is a fair point, right? There'd be, um, having acne and then trying to do that whole presenter thing. That is, there'd be a belief there that there might be some truth to it, right? Um, but no, there's definitely limiting, limiting beliefs that we have. And for me, mine's always been about my weight. It's been like, if ever I'm unhappy, I'll point to the reason I'm unhappy is because of my weight, and if I just control my weight, then I'll be— I'll feel better. Um, But one thing that I've just picked up a new audiobook and it is called, standby, it's called Better Than—

Josh: Oh, this is all about my timing. I'm just opening Audible right now. Yeah, that's alright.

Tommy: I'm glad you got this because I've got access to your Audible, so I've technically picked up this as well. So, go on.

Josh: It's called Better Than Before. And, uh, it's talking about habits. But one of the things that the, the interesting things— I was listening to it on the flight over here—

Josh: was that basically in times of stress, we go, we fall back to our habits. And so what they mean by that is it's not whether you— not bad habits, but just whatever your habits are. So for instance, if you're someone who has built a habit of exercising each morning and you go through stressful times, you actually tend to double down on that and do that more. Or they did some studies around kids who were doing tests, you know, they're in their sort of, what do you call it? Like finals or whatever. And what they found was that the kids who had a habit of eating healthy breakfasts would eat healthy breakfasts during these stressful times. So, but people who had a habit that was obviously, you know, would be considered a bad habit are more likely to do that. So their whole point was we are our habits and to implement them. And it was all about the fact that we are the, the basically the cognitive load that is required for us to be able to make micro decisions throughout the day. Um, you know, for instance, am I going to go, am I going to go to the gym today, yes or no? Whereas if it's a habit, you're actually not using your willpower because it's already sold in. But what are your habits? Uh, my habits, uh, I think, um The— my habits at the moment would be, I think I've got like a lot of negative or like bad habits. So, bad habits around like phone use.

Josh: Yeah.

Josh: And how much I rely on my phone. And so, there's that. Probably a good habit is when I wake up in the morning, I get out of bed.

Josh: Yeah.

Josh: And not like, I remember as a kid, you'd, I'd wake up. I mean, annoyingly, I woke up at 4 AM this morning. So, I ended up like staying in bed till about 5. But the, yeah, that I remember being a kid and just hanging in bed for hours, whereas now I feel like I at least get out. So, I think that that's a good habit. I mean, do you find that your, how much did your habits change when when Bodhi came into the world?

Tommy: Oh, my old habit would be get up straight away, go to the gym, but it's a lot harder now. I've got shit to do in the morning. And so it's like, I still— but I think the habit for me, for the gym thing, I think it's an easy one to talk about. There's probably habits that I've got that I'm not even aware that they're habits. I'm trying to think of those ones, but the obvious one is like a gym, right? But I think it's like from going for years it, it just becomes a thing that you do. Um, yeah, but so, I mean, it's such an easy one. Everyone talks about the gym as the habit, but I've definitely noticed I've kicked the habit of using my phone as much. But like you and I have talked about, the busier you get, you actually just have no option not to use it because, well, you will fall apart.

Josh: Yeah, I don't know. Um, I'll give you a little insight into something I've been thinking about over the weekend. I want to get your thoughts on it.

Josh: Okay.

Josh: Um, potential book, another book. I know that I've spoken to this before.

Tommy: This is a habit. Break it. Write one book.

Josh: Yeah, so the idea is around the clientless creative, or the creative without clients. So basically it would be a book that explores the options for creative professionals that doesn't require you basically to work for clients. So, um, it would be looking at— obviously our businesses are very client-focused at the moment, but actually speaking to people who have created businesses that don't rely on that.

Tommy: Give me an example of one that doesn't rely on—

Josh: uh, so an example would be a YouTuber, I think. Yeah, they're like— you could— I mean, you could argue that everyone has their version of a client. So for them, their client becomes their audience or the people they're doing brand deals with. But, um, no, there's just been on like, and it's all interconnected. It feeds into this sort of habits thing and rules and principles of life. And because if you, if you allow, like I've been trying, we spoke about this the other day, just saying yes more. And I have just, I'm wanting to now build in habits that just protect my time to be able to create stuff.

Tommy: And so the hardest thing to create the business that isn't client-facing is the, the mission to monetize what you do.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: And you know, like the— an artist who paints on canvas sells their paintings to clients. The person who creates a product candles is selling them. Is that a customer or is it client? Like, are you saying a client is a customer?

Josh: Well, I think that— I mean, I think that they would be a client if they commissioned. If it was like them commissioning, having works commissioned, then obviously you are, you know, the, um, uh, you know, you're— you become a service provider. But that idea of saying, okay, uh, I'm creating this painting and then you can buy it. Um, that's a different, that's a different realm. Yeah, yeah.

Tommy: I've been thinking, I think there is so many obstacles when you are dealing with clients, just back and forth, uh, input. And I think as creators, like, we want to be left alone. I think most people who create are either wanting to be left alone with their team of creators. Um, and so yeah, I've actually been thinking about that stuff too. It's like putting in the sprint to— or like putting in the hard work to get it created and then like using your skills to then be on the other side of capturing the customer or something along those lines. And it's— I've been watching, um, tutorials on— or just I've been watching people talk about like sales funnels and stuff like that. And it's like, fuck, you could go down the biggest rabbit hole understanding like the different audiences and where. But I think it plays into the side of that's what you end up playing in if you're not offering a service, if you're not dealing directly with clients for the exchange of money.

Josh: But I think what is also happening is it's what you're actually selling. So I think that what I'm finding at the moment is, uh, the stuff that I enjoy, it's because people see something in what Full Stack Films does, which technically is me, uh, to create something. Whereas I did a bunch of work with search engine optimization to basically increase the size of my funnel from the top, so more people are coming in, being exposed, and I'm getting people who want a video product, you know, a video done in Melbourne, and they're finding me. And the learning, or the— what I'm trying to sort of work out is how do we, how do we actually— like, it's almost elevating yourself to a next level creative in saying what is something unique that people would hire specifically you for because it's not going to be able to be serviced by another production company. I think that is— holds a lot of interest to me. So for me, what that might mean is going a bit more boutique and say, and treat, and being more strategic in the types of projects. Because at the moment, as I said, I've said yes to a lot of things, and there's a lot of times where I'm like, man, Anyone could be doing this right now. And yes, it brings in money, but I feel like it's, um, and I think it's something you need to do early on to just build up your craft.

Tommy: Yeah.

Josh: But once you get to a certain point, you need to, like, you need to be different because everyone, like, I'm just seeing, you know, there's heaps of people who are just jumping on, uh, you know, on YouTube and stuff, and they're able to emulate people and So there's just— it seems like we're in a world of fucking copycats and just that all look the same. And people want— we want that, but we just want it like with our brand.

Tommy: One of the, uh, some of the wisdom that you've, uh, dished out to me, or all the wisdom from your 27 years, was talking about knowing your value. And your value can be outdone by someone else if that's more of the skill. So for example, you're like, you, you're able to make documentaries, which is probably one of the harder things to do when it comes to storytelling and, and video production versus the young kid who's got all the new nifty equipment, the gliding, the, you know, Glidecams, and, and spends all this time doing wrap-up videos for events. And really nimble. It's like, if you who charges more, and rightfully so because of all the, you know, knowledge and equipment and experience and etc., comes in and does that, these kids are outshining someone who really has more value, but it's not sort of the place where their value shines. And so it's like, what I took from it was like, know your value and then double down on it and know where you fit in the market.

Josh: So like, I mean, I don't know, who's an, uh, who's a Grand Prix driver? Who's the Australian one that Trevor interviews all the time? He was on the Sandalwood— not Webber, the one that wears— yeah, Ricciardo. Yeah, fuck, it's, it's the equivalent of, you know, Ricciardo drives cars. Does it mean that he is going to be a the best taxi driver for you in Sydney? Like, the answer is no, because he might not fucking know the area. He might not have the new— he doesn't know where the taxi, you know, drivers go to, to wait. There's all these things where it's like, I'm not comparing myself to a race car driver. However, there is something to be said with you can be the best in your field and just because— and I think the video has been lumped into this one thing, right? Because it is, because it's this, um, emerging thing and it's still early days in regards to what we can do with it from a technology point of view and a distribution point of view. At the moment, we're a lot— we're saying that, hey, uh, if you can do, if you can do a video for Instagram, then you can do this other bigger piece for Netflix, or this or that. Or like, I think, um, even, uh, Matt D'Avella, who I like to mention on nearly every episode, he, uh, he talks about the difference between when he was making, say, the film Minimalism, the amount of extra effort it was to like make this feature-length doco versus— and he'd made a few hundred short 2-3 minute videos and we just assume that like, oh, we've done this, so surely it will just translate. But it's a completely— it's a sprinter going in and trying to run a marathon.

Tommy: They could probably do it, but they won't be as good as the specialist. And you know what I mean? I feel like I'm just now finding, after like 2 and a bit years of running my business, like I've just— I'm just forming beliefs around what I'm actually fucking good at and what value I can bring and and having wins on the board which have solidified that belief, you know, to— for me to go, yeah, okay, that is it, that's what I'm doing. Like, I've talked so much about the things I'm now doing, but years ago, but I wasn't ready. I didn't believe it. I didn't—

Josh: yeah, you need to go through to be able to niche or to be able to understand where your value lies. You need to do enough videos and And so that's what I've been experiencing is it's like, okay, um, you know, there's moments where you're doing something where it's like, man, this is out of my comfort zone. And sometimes you should push through it and it's an opportunity to grow. But then there's other times where it's like, it's like Louis Theroux, or, you know, a documentary filmmaker like Nick Broomfield, probably wouldn't be able to do a very good music video. Right? Or like, if he did, it would be— it would have to be within his style. And so I think that that's, um, I feel like we put the pressure on ourselves to be good at everything. And we even, to some degree, it's like, oh well, if you're doing video, you need to be doing photos, you need to be doing all this stuff, and you, you can't just do one thing anymore, you need to offer everything. And I think that, uh, that is That is true for the traditional service-based business, but what about if we say look at, uh, Macca's as the example, right? Like, say McDonald's do thick shakes, but if there is a shop, if there's a place 3 doors down that's the thick shake experts and that's what they do, then like, I think that that's fine. Do it. The thick shake shop doesn't all of a sudden have to be producing burgers. And I think that, uh, that's a belief. Going back to beliefs, my one belief is that I feel like I need to be able to do everything.

Tommy: Yeah, I think it— and it's— and sometimes at the start you need to be doing everything because you don't know. Like you said, 2 years in, it's like you don't actually know the thing you got to double down on. So you're finding that everything, but there's a hard transition between doing everything and then just fucking doubling down on what it is that you do best. Because it's scary, right? It's—

Josh: yeah, it's, it's saying no to a lot, right? And saying no is a scary thing. I know whenever I say no, there's that internal voice where it's like, who the fuck do you think you are? Yeah, like, this is good. Karma is going to bite you on the ass for saying no to this opportunity.

Tommy: Yeah, you know, I've been working on this. Okay, I'm looking forward to showing you. It's like just a bit of a roadmap for my business. But in it, it has— it basically is double— it's focusing on 3 areas, but there's one which is the current everything offering, which is— but the goal for me is to sort of whittle that down and focus on the other stuff. And I don't know, maybe it is just a belief that I have to still say yes to a lot of things. To keep it, keep the business going and keep cash flow coming in, to then get to the other side, which is getting rid of that and just doing these other specific things that I'm best at, or I think will be the future of my business, right? So yeah, there's a belief in play, right, that I've just, I just realised that.

Josh: And I, I think it's, um, there is a focus and an, and a luxury to being able to, to niche and, um, Obviously, I think you have to sort of go wider first to understand where that sits. But, um, yeah, I think that there's, there's lots of people, for instance, who, you know, might be not as well off as someone else who didn't become an Olympian because rather than being able to, you know, be on the track every single day, they were looking after a younger sibling because their parents had to work or things like that, right? So they're The— it is a luxury, um, to be able to niche, and it, it's, uh, and it requires putting in, like, potentially, um, saying, saying no to money. So, and I think that that's, that's a really tough, tough thing to do.

Tommy: It seems counterproductive for a business when a business's point of operating a lot of the time on one side is to make money to keep it going. It's, um, yeah, yeah, it seems—

Josh: And then you think about, well, how much money— Like, if you think of— If you just deconstruct money as its own thing, you can say, okay, well, maybe I could do this, maybe I could— Like, if you're looking purely at money, it's like, oh, take on a FIFO job, go to fucking WA, you know what I mean? Like, there's, there's lots of ways to make cash. There might be commission-based businesses, or, you know, there's fucking scams that you could get involved with that you can make a bit of cash. But the thing is that there's all these other things in play, um, and it's the doing meaningful work and things like that. And that's, uh, definitely where I'm at is it's like, I think that it's— it'd be easy— it's easy to make money, I believe, with the skill sets we have in Melbourne in 2018. But I think that what it can do is, uh, it can also set you up where it's like, there's lots of— a friend of a friend does roof tiling and he makes bank doing that, has heaps of cash, owns his house, but he fucking hates it.

Tommy: Ah, no good.

Josh: It's like, well, what's the— you know, where do you posit— where do you position happiness and sort of finance? For you?

Tommy: For me, um, finance definitely second. I see it as an important thing, and I, I want to make lots of money, but I also have always, always naturally gone towards things that make me happy. So jobs, I've always done the thing that I'm most passionate about, and I feel lucky, like, ending up in an industry that's sort of booming. But I, um I definitely have always followed that thing that makes me more happy.

Josh: And what is it that— what does money enable for you? When you think about money, when you think about money in the bank, what does— what do you deconstruct that to from a living point of view?

Tommy: From— yeah, when you have kids, it— for me, it shifted a lot. Um, it's— yeah, it's about— you think for the future a lot more. You think stability, not thinking about money. Like, my, my thing is I want to be rich enough to not think about money. And that doesn't mean I'm a billionaire, but it's like, if I don't have to think about going out for dinner 3, 4 days a week, or going to the movies, or holiday with my family, it's like, for me, that seems really important. School for my son, getting him whatever he needs. And I don't know, but maybe that's the first realisation to then work out how much that is, right?

Josh: But because our mind stretches depending on our situation or where we're hanging out, I remember when being 21 and hearing like, ah, someone that I was working with was getting paid $55 grand.

Josh: I was just like, what? Fucking $55,000 doing video stuff?

Josh: You fucking kidding me? That's huge. And then all of a sudden, like, our minds stretch and then we're, you know, expecting six figures or whatever it is. And then we sort of like, it becomes this this, um, I would— we have this amazing ability to stretch our needs based on how much cash we have.

Josh: Yeah.

Josh: And my learning has been that every time I've gone up a wage bracket, I've managed just to sort of spend that a little bit more. And definitely, I think maybe I've gone through enough of them now that I'm sort of experiencing now it's like, okay, well, now it's time to prioritise better work, like, rather than— like, the difference for someone bringing in, say, you know, personally $150,000, which is a lot of money, to $250,000, like, what is the actual— what does that extra $100,000 afford you? Versus if you don't have that extra $100,000, does that mean that you take 2 days off a week and that you can spend time with your family.

Tommy: It's rich people who become poor, or comparative, you know, comparatively for them, you know, that someone on a million bucks has to then take 100 grand. It's the lifestyle and all of those things you built around it that we need to get your mate on who was—

Josh: who's got such a good perspective on this. Um, uh, what's it— what's— what's Jeff? Like, just someone who, what, you know, had a huge business, right? Lost it all, building up again. Like, there's so much to be said in that. We should definitely get him on as a guest.

Tommy: Oh, he— I mean, he was driving around in a Maserati, $300,000 car at one point.

Josh: I thought you're gonna say a Mazda 3, 2017 model.

Tommy: Now I don't think he owns a car. Yeah, he might, but he's, he's got a different life, and it's, um his lifestyle definitely took a hit. But the perspective he has on it, the conversations around it, it's like, dude, he's the one who's been there at the top, at the, at the bottom. And it's, um, it's all in your head by the end of it.

Josh: And it's all what you do with it, right? It's all what you, you know, uh, and I think that part, part of the reason why I don't give— why I give sort of all of the other things about creating cool shit a lot more sort of clout is because there's a lot of people who are just going to born rich, right? There's gonna be a lot of people who are just born into money, where it's like, you have to create, like, to be able to create stuff, like, that is just solid work. And yes, there is, um, privilege that we all get where it's like, you know, we might be able to afford a better camera or to be able to do that. But to me, I feel like I'm going to get a lot more, um, meaningful, sort of, you know, sort of— what's a word? I can't even think. Um, I'm gonna feel more fulfilled. I think fulfilment is the word. If I go and create stuff, um, and for me being fulfilled means working on client work for people that I like, for projects that I think are adding value. I think that Some people think that, like, it's a finite, like, it's just a transaction, like just a transaction of service and funds. And I guess at the core it is, but I definitely am not interested at working with idiots or on things that aren't moving the world forward. I just feel like there's enough work.

Josh: It's a good filter.

Tommy: And it's understanding, like, the why that you're doing it, the why of what you're doing. Which it's so hard to come up with that when you first start out because—

Josh: Well, you can't, right? And it's just you're hoping that you— that the right people are in your life and that you can take on the right stuff. And then you'll trip up and you'll make mistakes and you'll start to realise, actually, I don't want to work with these types of people or I don't want to work on this project. And there's something really powerful in saying no and the temporary uncomfortable feeling that will give you versus the uncomfortable feeling of saying yes to something that then you're having to do 3 months down the track. I know which one I'd pick.

Tommy: Yeah, 100%. Well, I'm going to let you go because you have a book to write. This is the next book you've put out. It's—

Josh: He's got client work to do, actually. But it's, to be clear, This, these guys are actually doing interesting shit. It's The Minimalists. I'm doing stuff for them. They made the— Matt D'Avella, who I've mentioned already today, he made their documentary Minimalism, and they've got a new thing coming out, which is all about their tour. Less Is Now, I think it's called. And they did a bunch of filming in Los Angeles, and now they're doing this tour going to Melbourne, Sydney, Auckland, all over the place. But, um, yeah, I'm filming at a bunch of those cities, uh, which will be potentially included, some B-roll and all that sort of thing. So I've got a—

Josh: I've got to be there in an hour. What's on for your day? What are you doing, mate?

Tommy: I've got a few more meetings and some filming tonight, and then, um, bed. A bit tired, mate.

Josh: Oh, that is so good, isn't it? I fucking love bed.

Tommy: That's good. All right.

Josh: All right. The Daily Talk Show, everyone. Remember, uh, we've got an email address, hi@thedailytalkshow.com, which I've actually set up as its own inbox now, so it's easier for Tommy and I to respond. And PO Box 400, Abbotsford, Victoria 3067, if you want to send us anything. And please give us a review on iTunes or on the podcast app.

Josh: Until, uh, tomorrow. Have a good one, guys. Bye.