Happiness and the darkest moments

Josh: The Daily Talk Show, Episode 21. It is Tuesday, TJ. Tommy.

Tommy: Sup?

Josh: And I'm Josh. Thanks for everyone who listened to our last episode.

Tommy: Yeah, M. Knight from London.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: This is the woman who bought an Obike fishing t-shirt last minute, and I wasn't ever shipping them overseas, and I thought, fuck it, I'm going to ship one to M. over in London. She said, Episode 17. I agree. Don't feed the trolls. That was the episode talking about trolls.

Josh: I love that people are going back.

Tommy: It's great, but at least spend some time engaging with your decent audience.

Josh: Yeah, I agree. I actually went on to her account and Chrome started fucking up, so I stopped watching it, but I started watching her make miso soup that her friend sent her.

Tommy: Interesting page. She puts in the effort.

Josh: 100%. I enjoy it.

Tommy: I'm like, So, hang on, you saw that comment. How did you see that comment?

Josh: Because I just fuck it. You know what I'm like.

Tommy: I just, dude, you, I reckon I can fucking make a comment on a random video online and you would find it.

Josh: Yeah. I would be the type of person that if you had created this podcast, so it was like Tommy and B-Mac. Yeah. Doing the daily talk show, I would be the B-Mac and I would know, B-Mac who's been listening early on.

Tommy: Yeah.

Josh: I would have weaselled my way and been listening from episode 1.

Tommy: Yeah, true. You— it blows my mind. Like, I've said to you, let's find out this person's— like, let's find out where this person lives. We found out, didn't we find out where one of the trolls that was trolling me on the Obike stuff, didn't we find out where he lives?

Josh: Yeah, we—

Tommy: so you can find out that— let's just get a bit fucking scary for some people. So say you go and start— say if all I gave you was a business name What could you find? What could you find? How?

Josh: It's hard to say because you sort of got to go in through so many different routes, but—

Tommy: But if you've got an ABN, usually you can find—

Josh: Yeah, I can go through and sort of deconstruct it and go through different things.

Tommy: What's the storey that comes to mind where you've got like someone's done something to you and you've fucking found it in detail?

Josh: I'm trying to think. I mean, there's the Telstra stories, which I've told.

Tommy: No, but I mean like—

Josh: Yeah, someone, someone else. I'm trying to think. I think. Have I done— I'm sure—

Tommy: Who owns a domain name or something like that, like—

Josh: Oh, there's definitely been those types of things, yeah. But going into Whois, which is sort of a way of seeing who owns certain domain names and then going through their— working out what their name server is and who they're hosted with and then, yeah, there's so many fun things you can do.

Tommy: So, I've had this idea for a while and it's to buy a domain name and I think, what is it, .coms, people can like SEO businesses in India find out your details and can get your number through it. Which one is it?

Josh: Yeah, they can do it with all of them.

Tommy: So, my idea was, because I've bought quite a few domains and usually you get a phone call within the next 7 days after buying the domain.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: Hello, sir, I'm just calling about blah blah blah domain. I would love to do some SEO service for you, blah blah blah. I thought, how about buying just a like a dumb domain name that's like—

Josh: This sounds like my life. Hello. Hello.

Tommy: Hello. So, I'm calling about imatwerplittleboy.com. And so, you get that they have to read out this, this dumb domain name that you've got. I'd like to go a bit more vicious than that.

Josh: Yeah. I like that. Ruder. The domain names, we've spoken about them a bit. I feel like you're talking— just move away a tiny bit from the mic. Actually, no, you're okay. No, don't tell me what to fucking—

Tommy: Don't tell me what to do. Let's talk about happiness.

Josh: Yeah, it's—

Tommy: I've been watching— I mentioned to you that there's a— it's a show on Netflix, it's called something happiness.

Josh: Pursuit of Happiness?

Tommy: No, Destination Happiness, or it's like— fuck, I can't remember the name.

Josh: Don't get angry.

Tommy: It's A Name Before Happiness, and it's about the— this— it's a documentary.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: This filmmaker and his missus, who's a musician, they are German and they fly to America and they buy this old school bus, like one of the yellow, like legit school buses, and they transform it into this one-bedroom apartment. It's amazing, like wooden floors and Like amazing wooden walls and like legit sink, shower, toilet.

Josh: Legit sink. None of this bullshit.

Tommy: Like a legit fucking— Looks like it's legit, looks like a small New York apartment.

Josh: Amazing.

Tommy: And they get this big dog. What is it? A Bernese Mountain Dog. Huge.

Josh: I like big dog. If I was to get a dog, I'd get a big dog.

Tommy: Yeah. What's it making up for, big boy?

Josh: No, I just think that—

Tommy: Or little boy.

Josh: No, I just want something. Fuckin' that you can go— Something to protect me? No, something that can real—

Tommy: When I get scared at night?

Josh: No, just get— I can fuckin' play with. Yeah, sure. Yeah, just, you know, you want something—

Tommy: You wanna play with your little doggy?

Josh: When you throw, like when, when you're on a fuckin' oval, you want to be able to see it when it's at the goalpost and you're on the other end. You don't want to be like, where's me little man gone? I want something fuckin' big. I want almost like a horse. Like a Great Dane or some shit like that. Well— It doesn't really suit apartment living and also the— I've just realised halfway through I'm getting really off topic. But yeah.

Tommy: We're now on to fucking talking about the breed of dog you want.

Josh: Exactly. Sorry about that. So, happiness.

Tommy: So, anyway, they're setting out across this— Basically, they're driving through America, up into Canada, over to Alaska.

Josh: I like how you say all these names.

Tommy: Down through— Canada.

Josh: America.

Tommy: Fuck off.

Josh: I don't know, there's just something about it.

Tommy: No wonder people have complexes, because there's idiots like you out there that just pick people up on the most dumb shit.

Josh: No, you just— Geez, you're really stinging today. Go on about your happiness.

Tommy: Yeah, maybe that's why I'm talking about this. I'm unhappy, Josh. But so, the whole thing is they're like, this guy's got this business and he's leaving it to do this travel, and they essentially got no commitments, no responsibilities.

Josh: And no schedule without the ability of DIYing.

Tommy: Nah, nah, nah. These guys are doing like 8 months plus in a van. You're doing a cushy fucking flying over to Europe in a first-class cabin in a— In a suite. I want to say, I want to say the video. Josh somehow fucking— we're going off topic, but he somehow has swindled the legit rooms on an aeroplane, the A380.

Josh: Yeah, it's the suite. It's like the double bed. It's gonna be sick, but then we're gonna fucking flip it. We're gonna go from that to like being in the fucking Ibis, you know, shitty hotels.

Tommy: But anyway, so they're sort of searching for what happiness means. And what I took from it was there's all this happiness in the unknown and the adventure and the no responsibility or what do you call it, routine.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: But then they still come into these moments where it's little, it's petty, it's like we're working out our, what do you call it, visas, border crossing visas, and like they start getting unhappy. This is not what travelling is about, this is not what we want. But so, and it's like everything that— it's essentially life when you look at it across the board. Happiness, like for the dude who's super busy, has everything going on, the family, there's those moments of the happiness, but then there's also the Moments of the little stuff that just rattles your world and you consume and you remove yourself from the happy state that you were in.

Josh: Well, happiness is a choice. Happiness is a muscle that you choose to use. And so, happiness isn't about necessarily the place that you're in in life, but happiness is the choice that you're making on the way that you're perceiving that experience. So, shit could be hitting the fan and you could be the happiness, the happiest you've ever been, right? So, I think that, you know, the things that I've learned and it's a practise that you need to fucking continually work on is you need to try, like, it's not about, it's not even about fucking seeking happiness all the time. I think that part of the mental health fucking issues is this idea of perfection versus happiness. And I think that it's okay for stuff to be fucked up. It's okay to have all these things happening. But I think having gratitude and being able to say, take a step back in those moments of the visa crossing and being like, look where we are, look at what I've been able to do. To your point on a previous ep, you were talking about you can't You can't do these polar opposites, right? You can't be happy and mad at the same time.

Tommy: Yeah.

Josh: Right. And so, it's the same with gratitude. Gratitude, I think, is such an underutilised— I mean, it's a fucking hip thing that everyone seems to be talking about, especially in the day and age where it's very easy to look around you and be like, I don't have this, I don't have that. But so much of it is fuckin' mindset, right. And it's the ability of being like, and because it's also that thing of you get, like we've all arrived somewhere and then said to ourselves, is this it? So, the thing that we've strived for so much, the job, the certain lifestyle, the holiday, you get there. And I normally, I think especially for the dreamers, the people who are You know, constantly visualising. Our own minds can trick us and our expectations are way out of whack and then we fucking get there.

Tommy: What did you say yesterday to me? That you've found this point where you're busy enough that it's causing noise within your world, that you're kind of in a good spot.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: Whereas when there's not that noise—

Josh: I need, like, the thing that I've discovered about myself is I am happiest when I have a level of busy that I don't I don't have the time to overthink things. So, it's about building out a schedule so that I'm just focused on, okay, I need to do it. Like, so, it's the difference between someone saying, hey, we want to do this project in a month versus we want to do this project the next day. The next day I'll thrive because I just need to be in go, go, go, go, go mode. Whereas if I've got a month, I have time to sit and think and think about all the options. And that's a very hard state to be in, right. Dan Harris, who wrote 10% Happier, who's the anchor who had the meltdown, which I showed Bri the meltdown on YouTube the other day and she's like, it was a pretty soft meltdown. He essentially just—

Tommy: Threw the bike.

Josh: Yeah, he fumbles a little bit and then he throws it. For anyone else, For you and I, that would probably be a good on-air bit. For him, it was a meltdown.

Tommy: Quick backstory, he'd been taking a lot of drugs and literally battling some mental illness.

Josh: Yeah. But his thing was throwing himself into work, right? So, I realise that it's not necessarily the best way to go or, you know, the best solution isn't to be doing that. But that's the reason why people fucking exercise, right? It's all these counterintuitive things where it's like, I don't want to get up at 8 AM or fucking 6 AM and go for a run or go to the gym.

Tommy: I know you don't.

Josh: But the thing is you feel better after it, right? Yeah, yeah. And even—

Tommy: I know I do, 'cause I do it.

Josh: You stop projecting. You would too though, bro. Richard Branson says that he's, he was asked where, what makes him more efficient, like what's his biggest efficiency hack and it's exercise.

Tommy: But, um, so definitely, man, I've been doing literally this last couple of weeks. Shit feels like I've got a lot on and it's hard to deal with, and I've just made it up. I just have to get there, I have to do it, I have to do something, just move. And I— and sometimes it doesn't even make me feel a million bucks. Like, like some days it does. Like some days I'm driving to work from the gym, just like I feel like I've got so much oxygen running through my blood and just happy, but then other days it's like, oh, that just— I'm still feeling fucked.

Josh: I don't know if it's happiness that we should be seeking or it's that gratitude. Like, what are you grateful for at the moment?

Tommy: Um, I mean, I, I do this thing and it's from listening to Tony Robbins and these kind of people. It's like the gratitude. And I lie in bed and I just think about it and it actually just— if there's an explanation, it's warm and fuzzy inside. And that's what Doing like the thinking about the things I'm grateful for makes me feel like that. But I do it for everything. It's like my health, my baby, my wife, where we're at, the fact that we can eat, like just little micro stuff.

Josh: But this is the thing, and this is probably— It's interesting that you said all of that because I remember— Do you remember last year in August where I told myself that I was going to walk a million steps in a month.

Tommy: That was my response, that same laugh, I think.

Josh: No, but the thing was—

Tommy: No, how many? A million in a month?

Josh: Yeah. And it was doing— because it required, I think, 33,000 a day.

Tommy: And then what happened?

Josh: Well, I injured myself after day 3.

Tommy: Of course, because you walked 60,000 through 69,000 steps in 3 days, you beast.

Josh: You don't even— you can't fucking count.

Tommy: Yeah, I can't.

Josh: It was 99,000. How much?

Tommy: 99,000. Sorry, 99,000. Yeah, 3 times. Sorry, my bad.

Josh: And so, fuck, you'd think that 3 days, does that work out?

Tommy: Yeah, 3, 6, 9, 99.

Josh: Yeah, sure. It's a lot of factors.

Tommy: So many steps, bro.

Josh: Anyway, the, um, I was talking to a mate about it and he was saying, mate, that's fucking a lot. Why don't you, like, why don't you start smaller? And I was like, look, I already, I'm already doing like $15,000 on average a day, right? He's like, really? I'm like, yeah. It's like, show me your steps. Right. And so, what happens is I would look at the data and I was like, oh, you know, so I did $17,000 that day. He's like, yeah, but you did $4,000 on that day. I'm like, yeah, but I did $12,000 that day, which is close to $15,000. He's like, yeah, but you did $9,000 that day. And I think the point is that we are very good at fucking tricking ourselves, that if it's not a daily practice, if it's not something that we specifically do, I think that we overestimate how much we're doing it. And I think that that's been a big learning for me where it's like, yeah, Ben, I am, you know, I would do, I do this all the time. Like, I go for a walk all the time and then you like work it out and you're like, actually, I don't really. Do it as much. And so, I think that that's like putting it in and being very deliberate is very different, right? There's a difference between saying, yeah, if I can meditate and it's like every once a week or once a month or whatever, when you're like having a freakout versus doing it when you don't necessarily need to do it. I think that's in the power. And I'm being a massive fucking preacher because I don't fucking do it. I don't meditate.

Tommy: Don't exercise. Yeah, but hang on, I think this is the definition thing because you just going for a walk, unfortunately it's not exercise because humans walk in general. If it's a dedicated exercise walk, that just, that it's a different mindset. I know it's sometimes like an active lifestyle over, like what you're saying is you've got an active life where you walk.

Josh: I think it's about being integrated, right? I've always said like I'd much like, it's the fucking cliché of taking the stairs versus the lift. Or doing that sort of thing. And I've always done that. But I think that I'm guilty of it where it's like, oh, I do this thing. And then you actually do the numbers on it. It's like, actually, I don't. I'm not. I'm not doing that. Or it's a fuck. It's the same if you're a business owner, right? You have like a huge month, you know, $80 grand in a month or some shit. And then you're like, fuck. You fucking average it out. It's like, oh, I'm doing like, you know, 50, 50, 60 grand a month, and then it's like you have some smaller months. Like, if you actually do the numbers, I think that we're really fucking good at overestimating.

Tommy: Yeah. Yeah.

Josh: How, how well we're doing or things like that.

Tommy: We've talked a bit about people who find success, and relatively speaking, you and I have had small successes, but not huge scale.

Josh: No.

Tommy: But these people on the huge scale look back to all the things we're experiencing now and see them as the pivotal moments of where the success was made. And it's maybe it's like, I feel like they're good stories.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: In a lot of the times.

Josh: Well, Cyan, my friend who is one of the founders of Envato, she called— she was sort of talking a lot about this thing called the crucible moment. I'm just Googling crucible. The crucible. That's a fucking book or something that we should have read in English.

Tommy: Sounds biblical.

Josh: Yeah. So, Crucible. What does it say? Okay. So, this is— So, what she was saying is that she was saying specifically the women who were in leadership positions typically had a crucible moment. And so, she was using examples of people that we knew who had really hard upbringings or family issues or, you know, big issues in their family or moments where there's a turning point. She called it the crucible moment. I'm just Googling. So, it says, a situation of severe trial or in which different elements interact leading to the creation of something new. And I think that—

Tommy: Crucible moment.

Josh: Crucible moment. So, I think that that makes a lot of sense, right? It's like that thing of sometimes we need to be shocked. Some of the worst things that have happened in my life have led to the biggest amount of growth. And the crucible— I think that if you're in a crucible moment right now, if shit's hitting the fan, if you are at the lowest you've ever been, realise that most people have been there. And most, if we look at the most successful people in the world, they're betting big on life. And what that means is the downs fucking hurt, and they're— and so I think in the moment it's very difficult.

Tommy: But, um, have you seen that dude who, uh, he's been— he was in a video with Logan Paul. He jumped off the Golden Gate Bridge.

Josh: Oh, fuck.

Tommy: He tried to commit suicide.

Josh: Was this after Logan Paul did the suicide video?

Tommy: No, no, Logan Paul interviewed him. Yeah, as part of this video he made around suicide and raising awareness.

Josh: Oh, so it was in response. So he's done this Yeah, he made a video. So, if you don't know, Logan Paul is the— one of the biggest YouTubers, vlogger. He— the controversy around— He did a video where he went to the suicide forest in Japan and basically filmed a dead body. He's got like an audience of millions and they're all kids.

Tommy: It was a massive—

Josh: It's a bit of a clusterfuck.

Tommy: But anyway, so, in response, he's done this video that sort of looks at suicide and raising awareness for it. But they interviewed this guy and I can't remember his name, but he's famous. I've seen him talk. Before, years ago, and he survived. He jumped off and he says the moment he jumped off, he regretted jumping. And he's falling and he says he regrets jumping. And it's like, fuck, things are going so fast. And maybe time slowed down for him in that moment. Yeah, because I think about like, really, in these moments, do you feel like that? But he— this is what he says, and that was a moment where everything changed for him and he survives it.

Josh: It's like a release. I remember watching, um, And I think it was on Insights on SBS. They had, they were talking about suicide. Yeah. And they had a few people who had tried, and one guy who had sort of fucked himself. He sort of, his whole oesophagus was all fucked. He tried to hang himself.

Tommy: I know.

Josh: And it didn't, like, it didn't fucking work. And he was talking about, he's a guy who— Turn your fucking phone off.

Tommy: Sorry, mate.

Josh: It's about your timing.

Tommy: Charlie Goldsmith is now going live.

Josh: On Facey.

Tommy: See me doing some healing live on Facebook.

Josh: Oh, great. Anyway, uh, so yeah, he, he talked about that he's someone who, uh, was really struggling in life, who ended up really hurting himself and, you know, being sort of fucking crippled. I think he was in a wheelchair and stuff from it. It's like, here he is in a worse situation than what he was before. I mean, you've spoken about You've had suicide in your life and people around you. How is that? How has that affected your perspective on things?

Tommy: Yeah, man, it's fucking full-on. Have you had anyone?

Josh: No.

Tommy: Dude, I had my best mate when I was 18 take his own life and I got a phone call from I was lying in bed, it was like fucking 9 PM. I get this phone call and I answer it, and this woman's saying to me, he's— I don't want to say his name, but he's gone. And what? He's gone? He's gone. Anyway, it was his mum calling me. I literally said to her, you, you're lying. What are you— like, it's those moments where you go, those people say, oh, you're lying, you're joking. It's like, of course they're not fucking joking. But it's so surreal. And that fucking rattled the shit out of me. I had my— a kid in my street take his own life.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: And I just remember thinking about it so much. And then my godmother, she took her own life. And a guy that I worked with at the gym, he took his own life. And what, what makes me so sad is thinking about the moment. I don't know, with— and this is what happens though, you think a lot. It makes you think a lot. And I think about the moment and the dark place, and that's what fucking saddens me so much.

Josh: It's the event, isn't it? It's like the— Did you feel when it happened to your best friend, was it— Did you mentally go to the event itself, or was it— Did you go back to memories, or what was your default?

Tommy: Oh, it's numb. It's like you've heard people say, numb when there's a big event like this, and it doesn't kick in. And it really didn't kick it until I was sitting in his room by myself, you know, like days later or a week later, and I was just crying. And it's like, I don't know, it's like shit, it's surreal. Yeah, it doesn't actually feel real. And it's like, I reckon I've thought about him most days since this happened. He's such a big personality, this dude. And, and yeah, it's just, oh, I don't know.

Josh: What, what have you taken through that whole, those experiences?

Tommy: Like, life's hard, and these are the people that have found it the hardest because they've seen that as the only option. And so I don't know, for me, I haven't gone that in those dark thoughts for myself.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: And I feel so grateful that I'm lucky and blessed that my mind is one that's not in that frequency or not thinking about that stuff. You know, even when I do feel horrible and sad and experience what everyone else does.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: I'm just like, I think about, I think it maybe it makes me me not— maybe in these moments it gives me a bit of reality.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: And it's like, I think about those people that lost that fight with themselves, and it's like, maybe it gives me a bit of strength.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: You know, it's like, it's not that it was their sacrifice, but it's like their, their action, it, it's, it's a flow.

Josh: It should have some sort of impact, right? Like, if it's such a sad thing and regrettable thing, that there's almost the desire to have some sort of, like, I'm constantly like, what's the learning with everything, right?

Tommy: Yeah.

Josh: Even in the hardest moments. Yeah. And I guess that it's the impact of the people around. Do you think, what was the— How did you— How do you think that you got through it? Was it being with other friends? Did you have to— I mean, because it seems like in some ways that what you're describing is you don't go into that mental headspace. So, you're not— you think about it, but is it— it's not dark? Like, how do you describe the thoughts around what happened?

Tommy: I can't even fathom being in that place. So, that's what kind of rattles me, to feel like you've got nothing.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: When there's like all these people, dude, that have been in my life that have taken their own lives are huge personalities. Yeah, like disruptive, just magnetic people.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: And it's like they can't even see that.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: When I see it and everyone around them sees it, it's like, obviously that to me says there is this total disconnect from that because there's this total inside thing that's taken over them.

Josh: And, um, yeah, maybe it— maybe they have a greater attachment to identity, or what we would maybe describe as ego. And when you have that, when you identify with something and you put so much weight onto your personality or who you are, maybe, you know, the, the advantage is that there's huge amounts of, you know, they're extroverts.

Tommy: Yeah.

Josh: But then they're also, um, having lows. Did they, in those scenarios, do they sort of, uh, backtrack and try and understand? Is that like, is there that type of process when someone, um, commits suicide?

Tommy: I think it's varied. It's the people that in my life that have done it, they— I don't think it's come as like a huge shock. Yeah, it's like, so they've all had sort of mental health, mental health bigger than life.

Josh: Yeah, you know, but bigger than life, you wouldn't necessarily associate.

Tommy: Maybe battling, maybe, you know, that they've had their own demons. Yeah, but when you're 18, who the fuck— everyone's trying to make it. Yeah, through, you know, the puberty, just like actually growing up. And that's why some of my mates my best mate, who we kind of went through all this stuff with, and he's had his own demons. We say together, we're like, man, we just made it out that other side.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: Cause I can tell you right now, there's people I could— there's 5 other people that took their own lives that weren't my direct friends, but we're friends of the friends that took their own lives. And it's like this ripple effect through these teenage years of young kids when you're just trying to work yourself out.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: And we feel like we've survived it.

Josh: Yeah. And what sort of environment do you feel like perpetuated that? Like, why was this? Because I know that where I'm from in the southeast suburbs, there's a huge— there was a huge suicide rate in recent years. Yeah. Can you pinpoint what it is? Is it the pressure that people feel?

Tommy: Nah, it doesn't discriminate.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: I think that's what people— say, because you're in an affluent area. Yeah, affluent area. A guy only a month ago that I grew up with, and he, he grew up in the commission flats, so, you know, wasn't from an affluent family and was from a harder upbringing, and he took his own life recently. And so it's like the other person, people that I know were from great families, and so it's like, it isn't, it's nothing to do It could be everything to do with your surroundings or nothing to do with surroundings, you know, and that's the thing. I think what leads you to that, there's no one answer for.

Josh: Mm-hmm. And is there any sort of collateral damage or things that people don't— obviously there's the obvious stuff, right? There's the impact that would have on the family. The impact that would have on friends. How does that actually— How do you think that comes out in life? How is it? What have— What's— How's it changed your identity? How has it changed your path?

Tommy: Like I said, it's like just grateful that I'm wired the way I am and I can have that thought.

Josh: And do you see that like, so you see it as something of Because that's one thing I've noticed with you, I feel like, is I think that you regard your— the way that you've been wired as— and you sort of elevate that, which I think could be a good thing, right? It's— I think it's the equivalent of, say, using The Secret or a method like that, which is like, remember someone saying to treat life like it's skewed in your favour. Right. And when you do that, all of a sudden the hard times become easier. And you know that even though this bad thing's happening, that it's going to work out. And I think that's an interesting thing I've noticed with you specifically is that that's a common bit of dialogue, which is I'm wired this way. I've got like, I've got the muscle mass to be out, like I've built this, I've got this thing, I've got like, do you think that that self-talk?

Tommy: Yeah, I don't know, mate. Maybe it is, but like from— I was a super restless kid. School, I didn't want to go from pretty much as soon as I started. Yeah, I was taking sick days and just staying home and was giving my mum hell, right? And I feel like I've always felt like I've got it, you know, like not going to school. Then like when I left, it felt like the fucking burden— I felt like this weight was off my shoulders and I was like, oh, got rid of that. Now I can start my life and do my own thing. And then I went and Did my personal training course and started, and I've always felt like I was in control of this life that I've given. And that's why I felt like that for a very long time. And maybe that's why I feel like maybe I'm blessed to be wired this way. I think—

Josh: Well, feeling like you're in control, I think control is a big one because maybe for suicide it is about the act of finally having like the one thing that you control, right? Like if we look at things like eating disorders or stuff like that, It's, um, control plays a big part of it. I know that, uh, when my eating skews to fucking disorderly, disordered eating, it's around the time where I'm like, this is something that I can control. So it's like I've fucking eaten a lot of shit food and I know that I cannot— I can fast You know, like fasting has become such a shit-hot fucking thing. So, it's like, okay, I can fast today and I'm in control and I can pick, choose what I put into my body. And I think that we seek, we seek control a lot, right? Like even the conversations that we've been having around our days and what we want to do in a day and how we split up our day and being pulled in different directions. I think the antsy-ness is when we feel like we're not in control. But if we— and so it's about creating parameters around choosing, like making the active choice that whatever we do, even if it's the shit that we don't want to do, we're choosing to do it.

Tommy: Yeah, it gives you the power, therefore the control back when you're saying, I'm choosing to be in this job. Yeah, because as hard as it may be, The realities are there probably is another solution and it might be fucking hard to get there. But there is the other, something else.

Josh: You can do, if you want guaranteed money, if you want, like, so say if you're a freelancer or a business owner or, you know, you're in a profession where money doesn't sort of come as regularly or it's not as consistent, you can start working at Woolworths and you could probably, I don't know, what do they get paid? $45,000 a year or something? I don't know. 45 grand or whatever it is and you can, like, there are people who have like consistent jobs and they can work and they can have a little bit more guarantee. And so, it's knowing that that's always an option, but we're choosing this option because we know that the— there's probably more to gain from the risk associated with it.

Tommy: And then, I mean, on a sympathetic— empathetic, which one's the not feeling sorry for them? Empathy.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: Empathetic from people that I've known that have battled mental illness. And, you know, my— that mindset of you could just work, you do realise that.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: Is like, they're just so far from that.

Josh: Well, it's not— yeah, there's the logical stuff goes away, right?

Tommy: And so it can be just scaling back. And it's such an individual, unique basis for everybody where to start. Like, if you've been unemployed and feeling such lack of worth, yeah, it's interesting, like, the, the sense of worth that work gives people. And it's not even the fucking job, it's not even just working at Coles, it's like just a responsibility as a human to show up and, you know, exchange a skill for money. And it's, and it's very much bred into our culture, and that's years over generations of it where it's like so much worth is attached to the work that we do. And it's, and I feel like I've always chased work that's been the thing that I love most. And I was almost about to say, like, that's been my mindset. It's like I've really not settled for jobs and I've got closer and now I'm in this position where I'm like, I'm doing the thing closest to the thing I want to do for a long time. And the thing that's, within me and resonates and aligns with what I am and who I am more than ever. But I was going to say that's like a wiring thing, but maybe it is.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: But for the people—

Josh: Isn't that interesting that that's constantly the wiring thing. This is how I've made, like, that's identity.

Tommy: Yeah.

Josh: And it's a mechanism to be able to move forward. I wonder if, I wonder if that means that the harder times become harder. Because if you're wired to be a certain way and it's not working out, then it feels a little bit more personal. It hurts a little bit more when it's like, I'm meant to be doing other stuff.

Tommy: I think you can be over-positive.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: Like, my wiring is to, what's the most positive look on this problem, right? Yeah. And when you do face tragedy or fucking serious you know, heartbreak. It's like sometimes it's not worth going to that positive place first. You gotta— you have to— bask is probably not the right word, but you have to feel these fucked up feelings to then allow you to get to that next stage where you could find a positive in it. And I do, like, I have, and I've noticed this in a relationship with Amy, is that I have gone to this positive place And at times it hasn't served, hasn't been positive. It's such a weird thing.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: Not positive, but I've gone to a positive thinking before I've felt it.

Josh: So do you find that all of these things have been crucible moment? Like what has been your crucible moment?

Tommy: Hmm. Crucible moment for me was working for KISS FM.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: And it was nothing about KISS. It's like the out of alignment with me doing what I truly want to be doing. Yeah, and it's like, and I think the feeling I felt was probably an extreme as far as like, I gotta get out of here. This is— I feel yuck. It's the closest thing I feel to being depressed. Yeah, and I don't experience depression like some people, but I was like exhausted and felt zapped of energy and just shit about myself, and I wasn't creating the way I wanted to. So it's like all those things. Imagine all those people out there that are going through that.

Josh: It's like who can't recognize, like, who also don't recognise it, right? Like, yeah, your talk about wiring, and that almost builds a shield because that becomes your driver, your purpose, your focus. Whereas for some people, when they're sort of more like a sponge, they absorb these things. Yeah, more, right? So like, think about this. What was the self-talk that was going on in those moments in regards to what how you were feeling about yourself?

Tommy: I think I identified it pretty quickly. I was only in the job for 6 months. Yeah, but I got out and it was just the same feeling of the weight lifted off my shoulders. And I was whatever, $80 grand less off, less, less as a fucking solid paycheck coming to me. And I was in this place of unknown, and but I felt happier.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: So, it was like back to the happiness, that's probably more of my happiness where I'm paving my own way. But then I remember as a kid, right, it's probably pretty loose and Campton, my best mate, and Ford, my other best mate, we were in a spa and—

Josh: Can I just say Campton is so worried the government's following him. Is it okay that you used his last name? Oh, yeah, true.

Tommy: No, you've probably outed him uploading his photos to Google Photos.

Josh: When I did that—

Tommy: I told him that.

Josh: Because it was Bodhi, Tommy's little boy's first birthday. And when I put it onto Google Photos, I was thinking, I'm like, I didn't actually think you were going to be able to post the video that Amy posted, because I was like, I was not going to put Campton in there, because I was like, I know that he can get all fucking funny about the government.

Tommy: He's all right.

Josh: Anyway, so you made sport camp in the spa, and they—

Tommy: I can't even remember what it was about, but they pulled me up and just said, you gotta fucking pull your head in. I can't— but it was like, it was a crucial jolting moment. That's a crucible moment for me. And it had nothing to do with my work or whatever. It was like my identity of who I probably thought I was, and my best mates going, we love you, can you fucking stop being such a dick? Yeah, I can't even remember what I was being a dick about. They don't remember what it was about, but they remember the moment. And for me, it was just, it was life-changing.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: And I was young and it felt good.

Josh: Well, it does. I don't think it feels good.

Tommy: No, it felt good the other side.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: Come to this awaken.

Josh: Yeah. Awakening and changing and realising it's not you. I think that there's been so many times where I've had, whenever you get told off, you get that sick feeling. Or you realise that in a moment you've been misaligned with where you were, who you are, and then you adjust, right? And you take learnings from it. Yeah. And it's realising that we're this fucking, these growing things that are changing and we're not, you know, we're not who we used to be. You know, we're not our past and And I think being—

Tommy: I still see you as the guy that committed to a million steps and only did 33,000.

Josh: But the thing is, it's that—

Tommy: Actually, 99,000.

Josh: It's all that context, right? Like all of the thing is that even though you might not be that person, you are still your identity today. The person you are is based on those, on all those sort of things. So, this weird stuff. I mean, I'm very like, what do you think about going to therapists and psychologists. Have you ever done it?

Tommy: Yeah, my mum took me when I was year 9. I went every Tuesday or Thursday or something, and I just remember, and maybe that's helped shape me.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: And just being in tune, like I grew up with a mum who's a yoga teacher and meditates, and my dad, and so it's like I definitely feel like I've been shared some wisdom from them, whether it be I know it or not in the moment. But I see that has helped, like, and I remember crying in there and I remember just not wanting to go and like, it was, it makes me feel a bit uncomfortable thinking about it, but I know it. I definitely know that it was good talking about everything that I was going through.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: And I was like, I just went to a fucking private school, dude.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: Grew up in Brighton, had a good life.

Josh: Yeah, absolutely.

Tommy: Got everything I wanted. But still I'm battling my own shit.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: And I was restless and come out the other side and I, and that's why it was school. I don't know. It's like, and that's where I worry with my little man is like, I almost feel, and I worry more about the school system now than I did when I was younger. Cause the world's different and it's a fucking privilege to be a teacher.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: Some of the shit that the teachers did to me, and maybe they couldn't handle me because I was out there and wild, but it's still shaping of a young person the way these teachers are.

Josh: I mean, and that's the thing, like I had some of the best relationships, some of the best friends.

Tommy: You ripped off your teacher.

Josh: Teacher. What did I do?

Tommy: Remember you told that story? You told her you'll make a video. She gave you all the footage and $300 and you never made it for her.

Josh: Yeah, that was one of the teachers at the school. School, which I feel bad about. But no, like, yeah, some of the people that I was closest— The funny thing was that I didn't have that many close friends at school, but I had close friends that were teachers. I remember yard duty, like, hanging around, we'd just chat and talk about things.

Tommy: You're a fucking man outside of your years. Like—

Josh: Yeah, there was a bit of a misalignment in the sense of—

Tommy: I look at you as a kid in some videos you've shown me where you're talking to the camera, it's like, You're a big little weirdo.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: And now as an adult, it totally makes more sense of the dude who you are.

Josh: But that's what I just like.

Tommy: It was like you were out of line. You were an adult in this little fat kid's body.

Josh: That's what I loved.

Tommy: In the nicest possible sense.

Josh: That's what I loved about your friend Charlotte's kid, Taj.

Tommy: Yeah, yeah.

Josh: Like just Bree and I both love kids. They're just like little adults. Yeah. And that just have these personalities. And they need to be sort of nurtured. Yeah. You know, I remember internalising a lot of— I would say things that were— I'd go too far and I, you know, I would upset a lot of people.

Tommy: Like what?

Josh: I just remember, like, I was always the one that would ruin family events. Remember I spoke about handcuffing my uncle?

Tommy: Or— At one.

Josh: Yeah. I made— my cousin cry, who was— she would have been in her 20s and I would have been like 13 or something or 12. But the thing is I remember taking those things so personally. I remember being like, why did you do that? You shouldn't have done that. And—

Tommy: Oh, them saying to you that was—

Josh: No, that was my internal, like, so I—

Tommy: Why did you do that? Yeah.

Josh: So, they would just be angry and just being like and I think that what I realised, I really took it on, like I was really, I had a lot of shame around like doing those things. But it seems like maybe are we moving with all of this social media stuff, like are we moving into more conversations, authenticity? What's your prediction about that?

Tommy: There's a massive cut-through. I think doing this podcast is maybe look at radio. In a complete different light. And whether it serves a purpose nowadays or not is another discussion.

Josh: And well, this has come— all of this conversation has sort of happened naturally, whereas potentially if the content director had caught wind of your past and suicide and all that sort of thing, it's like, okay, all right, we're going to plan it around—

Tommy: What would they be saying?

Josh: What would they say?

Tommy: 'Just remember to be plugging Lifeline at the end.' Yeah. And for that, and that fucking irks me.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: It is like, 'Don't forget the fucking Lifeline number so we don't seem negligent.' Yeah. It's like, well, no, how about a conversation that's— and I get it, and it's not even that I don't want to say the Lifeline thing, but it's like, I feel like there's so many of these fucking—

Josh: It's a bit of a cliché, right? It's almost, uh, it's, it's when they feel like they're on to something. Like, if you have to say that you know, give the Lifeline number and stuff, we've been authentic and we're doing something that's a bit zany. And it's also, you think about— Turn your fucking phone off.

Tommy: No, that's actually my computer in the other room going off.

Josh: The— Yeah, but also think about like what contribution some of these people can make and that's all they, like as producers and stuff like that, that is, they hear it, they, and they're like, oh, this is the opportunity, this is where we've got to do this thing.

Tommy: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Josh: Ticking your box.

Tommy: And so, my point is, there's a massive cut-through with honesty now. And I see it with these kings of podcasting and the honesty that they're bringing and the dismantling of news outlets and media outlets that are not being honest. Like, think about the movement of clickbait articles. And there was— and you were in it. I was in it. I was writing articles for these companies.

Josh: We're talking about that this morning. I used to be— I used to have to fucking write for The Dirt, which was Fox's premium fucking Hollywood entertainment thing written by Josh Janson, knowing nothing about fucking celebrity stuff in South Melbourne or caring about their feelings and just fucking ripping into Lindsay Lohan. You know, Lindsay's done it again. Is anyone surprised? It's just like, fucking web guy Josh, bit fucking—

Tommy: And so there was that, that time of clickbait that was work that was— I, I don't know, it's like it wasn't getting called out as hard as it is now. Yeah, it's like we've come to a point where like Yo, this ain't fucking acceptable no more.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: Don't— if you make me click on that shit and it's fake or it's not like the information you've led with isn't there, it's fucking disgusting. You weren't honest. I will feel very hurt by that.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: And it's this, and I think it's, it's biting people on the ass.

Josh: Like brand loyalty. All of these things matter.

Tommy: Yeah.

Josh: And I think that for building a long-term audience, Clickbait doesn't make sense. I think the thing is that you want to, like, what do you think we call this? Because you want to be honest around the episodes. What do you call this episode? If you fucking think, I don't even know what we spoke about at the start, right? But if you fucking, yeah, if you talk about happiness and then they get halfway through, like, do we lead with talking about the darker stuff?

Tommy: Do we So, that's just— Yeah, I get, yeah.

Josh: Because we've even talked about big issues like feminism and all that sort of stuff and we haven't led. The thing is we don't see ourselves as being in a position to be able to talk about this stuff with authority. We're talking about it through the lens of us. So, we don't lead with the other external thing because we're going to get someone outside of our audience. Where it's like this is more about this. Maybe happiness is the right sort of caption for, you know, title for this.

Tommy: My mum said to me, how do you come up with the topics? Do you go in with the topic?

Josh: And I was like, Mum, you're fucking overthinking it.

Tommy: Well, because we actually haven't been thinking about it, but most of the topics have led back to happiness in this. And I mentioned that and I thought about that movie, but it was just something that interests me. But I think It is a natural exploration of honest conversation.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: Or honest topics.

Josh: And it's, um, and that's what I find refreshing, you know. I think that we've, we tried to, um, control it. We tried to create some sort of structure around it, and creativity needs structure.

Tommy: But, um, maybe the structure is putting the microphones in front of you.

Josh: Yeah, turning the fucking microphones on. And you know what, I think the biggest structure for me is shutting the fuck up. Like it's— And to be honest, from episode 1 to 10 versus now, we couldn't have necessarily probably had this conversation in episode 5 because I would have been too busy fucking—

Tommy: No, because you were still trying to do those 33,000 steps a day.

Josh: Exactly. But, you know, and this is part of the development. But— And it's different. I think that the other thing too is people expect that they need to, you know, We're at a time now where everyone is taught thinking about branding. They're all— Mum will say to Dad, now when you go to the airport, make sure you cheque in to the fucking lounge on Facebook. She says that? She legit said that?

Tommy: Lynn, are you saying that?

Josh: Lynn is fucking out of control. And so, but it's these things where it's like everyone now has the control to shape their identity online. And it is the epitome of control, right? It's being able to say all of this shit might be happening around me, but I can put up a photo. And we all do. And the other thing is we all fucking do it because as soon as there's, as soon as we see friends, like what would your, you know, best friend at 18, what would he, what would have social media, what sort of social media profile would have he had? What it like, I think that we think about these things, it's like, It's another dimension that we're thinking about, right? It's like it's ourselves and that's what we're putting out there. And the— It's a hard one because we like authenticity, but we only like it to a certain point. If someone is too authentic, if someone's revealing everything, they're unhinged. You know, if someone— Yeah, if someone's— I know people that I've got on Instagram who saw someone the other day posted a photo of them with, like, in tears being like they're having a bad day.

Tommy: Oh, God.

Josh: And they posted that. And then you do have empathy because you say, fuck it, if you're willing to, if you're posting that, you're crying for help.

Tommy: Was it Lynn and she was at the lounge and didn't get in? No, that's full on. I mean, if you're looking at that for an example, it's on Facebook. Like, was it a— was it— what was it, some sort of cry for help? Like, was it—

Josh: yeah, I think it's a— it was a desire for connection. It's, it's a desire for people to say new thing.

Tommy: You kind of go, oh, it's gross, why are you sharing that? And it's that yuckiness of over on—

Josh: what is it, radical honesty?

Tommy: Yeah, it's like a radical honesty, but maybe But I wouldn't be attention-seeking.

Josh: But this is the thing, right? It's like fucking Josh and Tommy will do anything for fucking listens. They're fucking talking about all of these things.

Tommy: But I think the thing is we couldn't talk about this shit if we actually didn't think of— we didn't talk about these topics anyway. We talk about this shit regardless of the mic's on or not.

Josh: Absolutely. I think that that's trying— that's the difference is it's trying to be— and this is, I think I'm better at it with audio than I am with video, which is how do you be your authentic self? How do you— Speak as if you're not being recorded.

Tommy: Yeah.

Josh: Exactly. And I think that the difference is, you know, we've had some really lovely feedback from people saying, oh, you know, you guys have good conversations. And the reason is, is we have been doing this for 2 years. You know, we've been working on our businesses for over 2 years together. And throughout that process, we would have a conversation most, like, definitely In the last year, we've probably had 2 conversations a day, right? And then going back 2 years, you know, once a day, once every couple of days, we would be talking and we're talking about life and we're talking about and trying to unpack what it is we're thinking, why we're thinking it, and trying to like move forward. And it's— and I don't know if it's something many men do, or it's definitely not promoted. And it's, I think it's—

Tommy: I don't know, maybe I end up just, I do this with a lot of my mates. James, you're having deep discussions with James, my mate.

Josh: Yeah. I think it's an environment where we're allowing vulnerability.

Tommy: You're either amongst it with a bunch of your mates or you're listening into a podcast that dudes are doing it and you dig it. And so, it's like that's a part of it. That's this new wave of this connection through these social channels.

Josh: It's outsourcing friends, you know. Yeah, why not? It's the ability that, you know, you might be in a fucking traditional town where no one's fucking talking about anything. And I even find that there's a disconnect with, you know, my, like, my family and what we talk about. I feel like we aren't that open about shit. Like, we don't necessarily go into hard conversations or shit like that, whereas I'm a lot more comfortable having those hard conversations with you because it's what we've sort of built in. And I feel like I get a lot out of it, and hopefully you do, and everyone else that's listening gets something out of it too.

Tommy: And there's the That dude who I said that jumped off the Golden Gate Bridge, I think he says he was talking around a fact around just talking to somebody else if you were in fucking dark places. And he was just saying it's like the statistics are out on what it actually does in even just engaging in some conversation with somebody. So if that's the case, so what do you mean by that? You mean engage in a conversation if you're feeling like that dark?

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: You know, bad, you know, not bad thoughts, but just those thoughts of taking your own life, it's like, have a conversation because the statistics are out. Even if you don't think it will help or not, it does. And so, do it. It could be to us. Reach out, whatever.

Josh: Yeah. Hi@thedailytalkshow.com is our email address and we do have our own PO box. I checked it today.

Tommy: Zero mail. Well, there is now. If you actually send us something, you get something back.

Josh: Yeah, we're sending you a book. It's PO Box 400, Abbotsford, Victoria 3067. I'll put it also in the show notes. Is there anything else we need to put in the show notes?

Tommy: Sorry about the long episode.

Josh: Yeah, we've done it again. It's been an hour, but—

Tommy: I just want to quickly say, a conversation I feel different to how I did before I started this. And it's like a good feeling. And you know, it's like, it's amazing how just fucking talking to somebody like this conversation about shit that's real and you know, it feels like you sort of almost, if you look at it visually, it's like you're really unravelling shit, right?

Josh: It's like this, you've got a fucking ball that's all tangled up and we're just pulling at each thread and we're like, yeah, by the end of a podcast we've just lined it all out.

Tommy: And it's clunky as fuck.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: A lot of the time.

Josh: Absolutely. But it's just like fucking trying to undo a fucking shoelace where it's all knotted, right? Like you pull at it, pull at like, and you'll, you'll, you'll make a little bit of effort and then you realise that you fucking made it harder and by the end of it You've undone your shoelaces or you're like me and only wear Velcro shoes. Thanks, everyone, for listening. Have a great Tuesday, the 13th of February. It's the Daily Talk Show with Josh and Tommy. Thanks.