Handling your emotional triggers

Josh: It's the Daily Talk Show for the, uh, for the 7th, Wednesday the 7th of February. Hey Tommy!

Tommy: Hey man, episode— what are we at? I keep forgetting. 18, 17, or 18?

Josh: 17. Yeah, sick!

Tommy: 17, 18, 19, and then 20 on Monday.

Josh: Yeah, perfect.

Tommy: Welcome!

Josh: Thanks, you're in my house.

Tommy: Yeah, I'm in your house. Okay, I'm eating your food and drinking your water, so I'm your guest. Thanks for having me. Uh, let's get into it. Yeah, I think I was thinking I was thinking in the car on the way over here.

Josh: Long, long ride.

Tommy: I'm pissed off.

Josh: Why?

Tommy: I've been trolled again.

Josh: By— on the internet?

Tommy: Yeah, on YouTube.

Josh: About what?

Tommy: Firstly, I got trolled a while back on the Obike videos.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: I got trolled quite a bit on that because I think people were legitimately thinking I was serious about fishing them out of the river, like it was actually something I do every single day.

Josh: And Obike also were fucking using it as advertising, which confused shit as well.

Tommy: So I did the raising money by selling the Obike Fishing t-shirts for charity. Yeah, the website's still there, obikefishing.com. Anyway, let me just— I just want to read out quickly how I sat— it was a subtle troll from a bloke named Bob Corny. Now, all these—

Josh: aren't they all named fucking Bob? Is this the same guy?

Tommy: This is— no, this is the guy I'm reading back. Okay, so what you know about this, but I want to share this.

Josh: I'm fucking full numpty.

Tommy: I want to share this. Here's the thing about this.

Josh: We were calling him Robert. Just to fucking piss him off.

Tommy: These fucking trolls, they use accounts on YouTube and there's no profile picture, of course. Um, but so this is, this is funny.

Josh: So fizzy water is good, by the way.

Tommy: I released a video that was basically, I think it was called, um, How I Raised $1,520 Using Obikes, or something around that. Anyway, Bob wrote on the video, which has me talking about the money that I raised and releasing the figure Yeah. Bob said, did Obike pay $1,520 to you? Question mark. I wrote back and said, they bought a bunch of t-shirts too, but didn't pay me anything for making any of the videos. If only. Hahaha. I see the first issue is that I even fucking engaged with this idiot.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: And then he said, I think we both know they paid you a hefty bit for the shit-ass system and the world's dumbest marketing campaign. I then said, haha, if only. And then he wrote back, well, they did. No wanker in Melbourne would go O-Bike fishing, go make a vlog about it like your video style, and then keep saying how good they are. Not many people want them damn O-Bikes. In brackets, I do, but most don't. And I think with a better system, they could easily become a smash hit.

Josh: The problem with Bob is he's taking the things that he's thinking in his fucking head and he somehow managed to get to your comment section. This is— it's not even just a troll. Yeah. It's an oppo— it's a fucking flood of thoughts that he's having.

Tommy: I wrote back, my bank account and wife say differently, Robert, and it looks as though I'm a wanker then. Did you help me craft that one?

Josh: Yeah, I think so. We had a few different options. I think one of them was, I think the wanker is the one writing comments on the— we wrote about— we had about 4 different responses.

Tommy: So, the reason I bring it up, because today I want you to help me craft A response.

Josh: I do like this stuff. Go on.

Tommy: Because I've already bitten. I've got— I got trolled last night.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: And they brought my fucking family into it.

Josh: Wait. And you made the mistake of—

Tommy: Just even writing back. Yeah.

Josh: You wrote back without consulting me.

Tommy: I did. It was early and I didn't think about it.

Josh: That's like the Telstra thing that happened where you go down this fucking rabbit hole without consulting me.

Tommy: Go. Does it mean you're a king troll if you know how to out-troll the trolls?

Josh: No. Yeah, I just— I think that I'm— I've got a good mix of I've been there, I've bitten back, but I feel like I've got a good bite, but I know when to use it.

Tommy: And you're good with words and you're smart. So, it's a good concoction. Alright. This is— Have you seen this video on my YouTube channel? Haunted Abandoned Hospital.

Josh: No, I don't think I have.

Tommy: I made this back in 2015. Okay. March of 2015.

Josh: Don't play it for me now, but just tell me what it's about.

Tommy: It's basically me looking through this haunted hospital in Maroopna, just outside of Shepparton.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: In country Victoria.. And I went in the day and my— and Amy stayed in the car, my wife. Anyway, this bloke, no profile picture. His name's Tom Tonka.

Josh: Tom Tonka.

Tommy: With no profile picture.

Josh: Picture.

Tommy: Picture. He said, go there at night, not in the day, you fucking sissy. P.S. The scariest thing in the video was your girlfriend with no makeup. Wow. Anyway, so I wrote back, Tom Tonka, just checked your channel and couldn't find the video of you going into the abandoned hospital at night with your hot girlfriend. Can you link me? Question mark.

Josh: Yeah, that's okay.

Tommy: Yeah, I know, like, but it wasn't, it wasn't, um, let's give me, um, so he's written back to that.

Josh: Okay, what has he written?

Tommy: He said, Ah, yes. I always knew my life was missing something. Turns out it's uploading shitty videos. Touché.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: First of all, it's— it just pissed me off because I—

Josh: What's his name?

Tommy: Tom Tonka. Is it a real name? Is it a real person?

Josh: Don't know. Yeah, I mean, they're all real people, right? You can't be a cunt and just be—

Tommy: No, yeah, I mean, real person being Tom Tonka is the real guy.

Josh: Okay.

Tommy: Yeah, but it's— it fucking pissed me off because it pissed me off because I bit back and I could have just left it. It's on an old video, so there's multiple levels here.

Josh: Yeah, sure.

Tommy: Do I even write back to this idiot?

Josh: Probably not, but let's have fun in writing— thinking of stuff to write back.

Tommy: So, so it turns out uploading shitty videos, touche.

Josh: Okay, great. I think it's something around, I hope you watched my video using your mobile data and you go over this month and have to pay extra, you fucking piece of shit.

Tommy: I like it.

Josh: Maybe not the fucking piece of shit bit.

Tommy: As much as we want to put it in.

Josh: Yeah. Look, so that's one angle. Oh, there's heaps. Read his one again. What has he said? The very first one.

Tommy: Go there at night in the— and not in the day, you fucking sissy. P.S. The scariest thing in this video was your girlfriend with no makeup. Okay, all right, so it's, uh, the video is 5 minutes and 6 seconds long, so there could be something like, um, I'm, I'm so glad I could help waste 5.

Josh: Yeah, so I think that the thing is that it's—

Tommy: see, the asshole's on our podcast.

Josh: Yeah, we're giving him like, it's a, yeah, don't feed the trolls.

Tommy: You're right.

Josh: Because he's, I mean, we can have fun in little things that we could say back.

Tommy: Yeah, I'm not going to write back.

Josh: Yeah, don't write back. Maybe just be like, hey, Tom, like, why don't you make a video that, you know, like, I don't know, I think it's like he's clearly got some trauma from his childhood. You know what I mean?

Tommy: Like, yeah, because he's giving me shit.

Josh: Tom, did I bully you in school? If so, I would just like to apologise, but it's time to move the fuck on. Yeah, there's so many things that you could say.

Tommy: What do I— Have you trolled someone? Honestly, have you written on someone where you've been completely anonymous and not— Nah. Nah, me either.

Josh: I don't fucking get it, dude. Yeah. No, I haven't felt the need.

Tommy: And I think it's when it's things like this, any art form, musicians, artists.

Josh: I'm having fun and thinking of shits right back to old fucking Tom.

Tommy: That is good. But I think it's like this, it really hits deep when you've— it's not even the video, like it's not even the comment that he put. It's like him going out of his way to do this, and it's so such an easy bite. Like, it's— he's put out the bait.

Josh: He's projecting so hard at something that is he So, he's upset. Like, we were talking about the other day, I put up a fairly shit video and you were talking about— I could tell in your voice when you were talking to me about, like, when we're having a bit of a retrospective on the video, you were disappointed. Like, there was a level of you wanting to— for me to do great videos.

Tommy: Yeah.

Josh: And I think that an extension of that is there's these people who are saying these things not because they're saying them because those comments more to themselves. It's this thing of like, he's probably not comfortable. Maybe he doesn't have a partner or he's not comfortable. His partner's not comfortable being on video. And so, he's projecting all of that. I mean, he might also just be a piece of shit.. But I'm pretty sure that he's projecting.

Tommy: Yeah.

Josh: And I think that all that we can do is have positive self-talk, because I think— I was speaking to a friend today. I caught up with her for lunch. She was running a little bit late. She had a bit of a blow-up in a meeting with her boss there and a brand new employee who just started, just being like, oh, this is fucked. And she wasn't feeling that good about it. And the thing to consider is, yeah, like you can make a mistake in a moment. You can do these things, but it's— You can only handle what you're doing going forward. You can only control your— You can't fucking control Tom. You can't control what he's going to— He might be fucking wittier than you. He might like—

Tommy: Yeah, but he's probably not wittier than you, mate. So, he doesn't know I've got you on my side.

Josh: But the thing is, I think it's— It's the acceptance in those external forces, whatever. And like, to bring it back to my friend and what I've been thinking about is it's like, I think that we can beat ourselves up on things and be like, you know, even about responding and being like, oh geez, I fucking played into exactly what he's saying and all that sort of stuff. And I just think, just fucking You have to move on. Like, you think about the bigger, like, that's scalable right now, right? The trolls are scalable. Like, you can, you're hyperconnected to them. But imagine if you are fucking Katy Perry, right? If you're Katy Perry, she is not, as one person, she cannot scale trolls. She can't like reach out to all of them. And I don't think it's—

Tommy: no, I don't. And that's what I think about any, like, these YouTubers that scale 10 million subscribers. They would be getting so much shit. Look at Logan Paul at the moment. Yeah, who made some pretty bad choices and felt the full force of trolls towards him. Also towards, like, from money, from a monetary side of things, YouTube shutting down half of his ad rev. It's like he's just come back on to the scene.

Josh: Have you, have you read Jon Ronson's So You've Been Publicly Shamed?

Tommy: No, I haven't.

Josh: Fucking great book.

Tommy: Good book. All about this stuff where it's like, hello, I'm Jon Ronson and you have been publicly shamed.

Josh: Oh, that's actually quite good.

Tommy: Not a bad accent. Yeah, I listened to the sex, um, what's it called? Oh yeah, Butterfly Effect.

Josh: Yeah, the only bit I can do, I know I've said Dropped the C-bomb once or twice this year.

Tommy: Multiple, probably up to the fifth time.

Josh: But one of my, like, when I pretend to be John Ronson, I use the C-bomb because there's this line where it's like, it was like a response to the chick who was going to Africa and said, hopefully I don't get AIDS.

Tommy: Yeah.

Josh: And got slammed for it, obviously. But then it was like, I remember there's one line in there which is like so full on. It's like, "Rip out her cunt," they said.

Tommy: Someone, someone wrote that to her?

Josh: Yeah, on fucking Twitter and stuff.

Tommy: Actually, I don't think that's possible to rip out someone's cunt.

Josh: I don't know what that means.

Tommy: And so what about this book? I don't know the other one you mentioned.

Josh: It's fucking great.

Tommy: Is it about trolls?

Josh: Yeah, it's all about how someone can fuck up, they can do something wrong. And then the— What comes after it, the lynch mob or whatever you want to call it that comes after it is way fucking worse. Like, I don't know. I literally only heard one line in the news the other day, but it was about Robert Doyle standing down or whatever.

Tommy: Yesterday he's done. He quit.

Josh: Yeah. And the thing is, who's the guy who's— Real big on the antidepressant. Footballer, mayor, was a mayor or maybe not a mayor, premier. Fuck, what's his name?

Tommy: Barnaby Joyce.

Josh: No, the one who that does like—

Tommy: Australian, Melbourne.

Josh: Melbourne specific. Hawthorn, I think is his team. We're going to get there. I know this is painful for everyone.

Tommy: Yeah, because it's sport and Josh has no idea.

Josh: Fucking blue. He does like the— What's the fucking men's—

Tommy: Beyond Blue.

Josh: Yeah, Beyond Blue.

Tommy: Nick Brax.

Josh: Fuck, you're getting close.

Tommy: What is it? What's he do?

Josh: Anyway, he's fucking— he was a— Hawthorn, maybe, maybe a president, maybe Melbourne Football Club.

Tommy: And what's he done?

Josh: Premier fucking— not Brax. Who was before Brax?

Tommy: I have no idea.

Josh: It's Kennett.

Tommy: Yeah, Geoff Kennett. Yes, yes, yes. President of the Hawthorn Football Club.

Josh: Yeah, see?

Tommy: Geoff Kennett. What about Geoff Kennett?

Josh: He was all The only thing I heard in the news thing was that he, uh, Robert Doyle didn't get a fair sort of, um, fucking whatever it was. Like, people weren't being fair to him, or he—

Tommy: because he, they— he was accused of being a sex pest.

Josh: Well, the fair recourse. Well, yeah, it's that thing of like, okay, you've been publicly shamed, being fucking ousted, and we don't know any other of those details.

Tommy: Yeah, what's it— I heard a really good quote, and it was in the Herald Sun, surprising. Um, but it was taken from a really scholar of a person and it was around—

Josh: Mate, I was reading the Herald Sun and this fucking scholar was—

Tommy: The point being, it was around like a, what do you call it? Like a whisper or something takes a lifetime to come around. So it's around, you know, like if you say, if you get accused of being a sex pest, regardless if you are or not, it will take a lifetime for it to come round and the truth come out.

Josh: Absolutely. But I think that the— That's why we need to control our internal monologue more than anything. I've got this poster up that I got in the Offscreen magazine, Mates Mag. Very good. Offscreenmag.com, I think, is his website. And it's a list of things that says, "It's okay to." It says, "It's okay to say I don't know, ask for more clarity, stay at home when you feel ill, say you don't understand, ask—" All these things, right? Ask what an acronym stands for. And these are the things that we— I feel like we do a fucking terrible job of giving ourselves, like. And when you're getting attacked, the reason that you need it is because when you've got a vicious lynch mob or a malicious comment, you need to be internally okay. You need to be having voices that are positive, that's pushing you forward to be able to push up against any negative shit. Because if you were to say, you know, if you were to think about the internal monologue of creating video, there's probably a little bit of you which is like, oh yeah, you're fucking, you know, fraud. You shouldn't really be doing this type of stuff. You're not really a fucking filmmaker. You don't— you're so fucking new to this. Who do you think you are doing that? Like, all of these things are very common Thoughts that people have and people who are really successful. And when you have those thoughts, when you have imposter syndrome, when someone gives you a little fucking— writes a comment, they're projecting their own imposter syndrome and their own things. And that's why it stings so much because they're— My mate, Dan, has a saying. I think it comes from his dad who who's a pastor, they say, uh, hurt people hurt people. That's pretty fucking powerful. It's like, it is that cliché of the fucking, the bully is the bullied, and it's the, you know, it's the thing that we don't know about the bully is that they fucking get hit when they're at home. Yeah. Yeah. And, um, so true. So, and I think the other thing that happens is when you internally give your— have empathy for yourself and give yourself a break, you're way more willing to give that same empathy to other people.

Tommy: Even if you go back, right, I remember I feel like I was blinded by a lot of this stuff because I was so— in the early days of making content. Yeah. And even getting into radio, like listening back, it's cringeworthy or shit, but I never really in those moments was focusing on that. Because I couldn't, I wouldn't survive. And it's like when you start posting videos, I've told you about my mate Mitch, who's a teenager from up in Kaiaburra Country, Victoria. I was like, dude, what do you— He wants to make videos and he wants to, you know, make vlogs and he's got camera equipment. And I was like, why aren't you making more? Like, put more stuff out. And anyway, long storey short, I was like, I realised that he's pretty frightened by what kids say and kids can be fucking brutal.

Josh: And that was my biggest— And we've spoken about this. On a previous podcast, previous episode, my— I think the biggest advantage that I actually had was being this fucking outcast and that that is what is cool. Like the thing that what is— What people perceive as cool initially is being able to like not have this friction, just be like, you know, friends with everyone and be liked and not do anything that people are like, oh, did you fucking see You don't want to be talked about. You don't want all of those things. But there's a transaction going on. If you don't want to be talked about, you can't create anything that's worth talking about. And that goes both ways. So, it's the yin and the yang, right? It's fucking— Yeah, this summer I was listening to an audiobook. I think it's called I Thought It Was Just Me. And you always fucking have a go at me for listening to Brené Brown because it's a little bit—

Tommy: No, I like Brené Brown. We listen, Amy and I listen to— Oh, a bit of a change change of heart. Some Brene Brown.

Josh: Yeah, you've softened up a lot. You used to— you were a little bit sort of, uh, uh, bullshit, mate.

Tommy: Fucking Joe Rogan or nothing.

Josh: Exactly.

Tommy: Fucking fight companion. Unless, unless she's fucking—

Josh: I don't know. You, you, uh, yeah, you, you were opposed, which I get. It's, uh, yeah, she's, she's, uh, I think maybe Oprah at some point probably gave her the tick of approval or something. She's got a very female-focused audience, which I think plays into my personality because I'm a bit femme. Yeah. Uh, and yeah, you are more fucking Joe Rogan. You're getting your fucking, uh, mindfulness advice from a UFC commentator who used to be on the Fear Factor. All right, when you put it like that, it's sort of fucked, isn't it? Um, but the Brené Brown, yeah, she's got, uh, this book I Thought It Was Just Me, all about shame. And how many of these things are tied into shame. So, um, I always try and pick up when something is— I am feeling shame. I remember after doing that fucking episode 14 or whatever where we went a bit fucking out there and speaking to Bree afterwards, and Bree—

Tommy: which one was it, you talking about Squidgy? Yeah, exactly.

Josh: It was me fucking talking about, you know, crazy shit I did as a kid. Yeah. And Bree said to me, she's like, you know, I told like a guy who she'd just met at work to listen to my podcast. And the first thing—

Tommy: On the day you did that?

Josh: On the day that I explained a storey of when I was 15 and put a shower squeegee in my asshole. It never gets old. I love that story. Especially with no context. And the thing is that I realised that it was— I actually got real hot when she said, oh, you can't. Can't do that. Like, you shouldn't have posted that. I got hot, real hot. Like, my head felt really hot and I felt like prickly. And it's like a reaction that I was having to this shame that I was like, that I'd created some. And because Bree was like, you know, there's some things that are just personal and she's come around and she ended up confronting that shame herself. And the next day she's, you know, with her girlfriends out to brunch telling the storey and they're fucking laughing. And then she was able to And what I think that I'm trying to do, there's half attention seeking because it gets a laugh. I remember when I was a kid, I was known as having these poo stories. And it was like when I was about, fuck, it was probably when I was about 11 years old. I was a bit of a fucking outcast in the sense of like the family friends group because everyone was like playing. You'd go to people's houses and you'd be playing cricket or shit like that. And I remember I would just create these storeys where I'd be— where the punchline was that I walked in poo. So, I'd be like, so I was walking—

Tommy: Not even you shat yourself?

Josh: No, no, no, no.

Tommy: It's literally— Oh, fuck. Let's jump past that.

Josh: It was just literally me making up a story. Was it true? No. So, I'd be like, they're like, Josh, tell us a poo story. I'm like, okay. So, the other day I was walking along and I saw this massive kangaroo and it was like coming towards us. And I couldn't, I couldn't run quick enough, so I hid behind a tree. Anyway, 5 minutes later they'd gone and I was walking along home. And as I got to the, near the front door, I stood in dog poo. And they loved it. And they loved it. And it was sort of laughing at me. And I remember my brother being like, you know that they're laughing at you, not with you. And so, the reason I bring that up is that was, I could tell that I loved the attention. I loved the attention.. And it was one of the first times of me, um, accepting the fact that even if this attention is coming from my expense of people laughing at me, I still dig it. Fascinating.

Tommy: What's fascinating is a physiological response. Yeah. To your thought. Yeah. Crazy, isn't it? Yeah.

Josh: And if you start to deconstruct, and this is what I really want to get into, fucking meditation and shit. I've never been able to nail it down, but meditation allows you to understand and see your thoughts and being able to recognise. Because I think that we constantly go through these loops of the same things over and over again. Like, think about stories, things that happened to you years and years and years ago, and for whatever reason they've stuck. They're in your head and they fucking— They come out and you try and— They're on loops. Yeah.

Tommy: Which, I mean, it's just being reflective rather than reactive, but you'll always be reactive. I think most people are reactive to their thought. Like, if something happens, a smell comes or they see somebody, it's just triggering constantly thoughts from the past.

Josh: And I think it's recognising it. I think it's like you can react. So, it's the difference between reacting and hearing it and understanding why it's happening. So, it's like, why? And it— What we can also potentially do is break that loop. So, it's like if someone says something, so, for instance, you know, I think that sometimes if someone says something really mean or nasty, there's a sense of like, I want to hurt you as much as you've just hurt me. Yeah. So, I'm going to hurt you with my words because I can know that I can do that. But it's knowing that that's the impulse. It's like, I'm hurting you because I want you to feel what I'm feeling right now. Yeah, totally. And it's realising that, hang on, like, let's break that loop. Let's like, 'cause how many times have, you know, you and your wife had an argument and then it actually becomes way bigger than whatever it needs to be because it's like, it starts off with, 'Why are we running late? You didn't get your shoes on in time,' to this fucking explosion of, 'You don't love me anymore.' For me, it's, um, it's, it's like barking back.

Tommy: It's like a dog that gets yelled at and you bark back. I, for me, it's like I've got, I think I've got much better at it, but from primary school and growing up, I was always blamed for everything. Yeah. At school, whether I did it or not, and most of the time I probably didn't do it, and then the other half the time I did it. Yeah. But teachers, it's like they can damage kids, man, which flows into adult life. Yeah. So, I definitely feel like I'm reactive to people pointing the finger at me.

Josh: Well, and a good example and—

Tommy: Was that time you said something, I'll punch you in the face?

Josh: Well, I think that it also plays into masculinity and all this sort of thing. We're not having enough conversations around that. I think that that's what women are better at is it's like they talk about all of this shit. Where it's not necessarily as natural to— You can see that you're playing in this fluffy area and some people turn off. Yeah. But I think a good example of where I noticed it from you is I— And I think we've spoken about on the show before, was when we were filming my— Me being a dad for the day and you were walking and nearly knocked into someone as they were riding their bike. And the dad said, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Like, oh, he was over the top. Watch out, watch out, watch out. And your natural reaction was to be like, I knew they were there. And you didn't know what that— Like, I did. Terrifio, I knew. I think that the thing was that it was your need to have a response and a reaction. I totally—

Tommy: And I knew it was probably the wrong response to this dude. But it's fine. Like, and that's where the end— Dissecting it, it's like I was pissed off that he wasn't telling his fucking kid to watch out. Yeah. When I was Obviously not looking and his kid was just riding towards me. And when I say kid, it was like an older kid.

Josh: Yeah. But I think that the thing is that it's a— We can't control what that fuckhead out the front of Luna Park is going to say, but we can control what we say. And it's interesting because it's— We need to be able to give ourselves a break. Yeah. And I wonder. It's not a natural reaction for you in that specific scenario because it was enough of a— You had a certain context that you were in and you reacted that way. But what about being able to say, "Sorry, mate." It's not a natural, like it doesn't feel natural. It doesn't feel natural. But what about what hap— What does that do? I wonder what— Because we feel and the natural response that we get instantly feels fucking— Like we might feel good where it's like we can have that quick conversation, is that what a fuckhead. But I think that for long-term happiness.

Tommy: Yeah, it's totally natural. It's a more natural— Like if you were to react positively, it's going to have a more positive outcome. Yeah. So, if you were to say sorry, even if it's like, yeah, they were in the wrong a bit too, it's like— It takes two to tango, but who takes the high road? Yeah, I totally get it. And I definitely have had that. My wife, she has had a bit of a run-in with someone at work, right, that raised their voice at her. This is someone of power at the job she's in and how that made her feel, right? And for me, I think, fuck, anyone tells me, anyone fucking yells at me in my job, tell them to get fucked and I'll walk out. It's like, but then there's that, you know, and I know this is across the board. Lots of people get yelled at at work, which you totally should not be yelled at by anyone at work. Like that is the total wrong thing to have happened from someone in a more senior position. But it's the response to that. And so where I would fail in an environment in a corporate world, like I think about any of the places I've worked at, mate, if anyone fucking yelled at me, I would buy that guy.

Josh: And is it the— where do you think that comes from? Is there the sense of like realigning the alpha? Because it's like—

Tommy: Maybe, maybe initially the instant response for me is the logic. No, the logic of you can't fucking yell at anyone. Yeah. So don't fucking yell at me. Yeah. And then it's like, obviously the feeling like a You know, for Amy, her response is like childhood feelings come up, you know, I don't want to be yelled at. Like, I've had that before and that makes me feel a certain way. So, it's like everyone has their own reaction. Some could be to cower into the corner, not being a coward, but just that's their internal response is to shut down or it's to bite back like a dog.

Josh: And the hard thing is that people have different languages, right? So, the thing is If I tell someone to fuck off, it's not a big deal. Like, "Oh, fuck off, Tommy." Right. Like, if I said that, it wouldn't be a big thing. You say that to someone else and it's the end of the fucking world. And so, this is— And so, the thing is that that person who yelled at her might respond fucking better to having equal power back. But we don't— Like, I don't know. Like, I'm not a fucking psychologist. I don't understand this stuff. But I think, yeah, it's very tricky. How about this? A friend was telling me a storey about, you know, like just being called out by saying something that you think is harmless, which isn't necessarily politically correct anymore. Someone was leaving a job, right. And she was off to a new job and her manager, so, The manager is a guy, the person leaving is a woman. The manager said, you know, over— the person took on a new role and over the last 6 months she's really blossomed into that role, right? This— they both get along really well. This is her going away thing. You know, all the people within the company. And she stopped him and said, Don't say that I've blossomed. Would you say that to a man? And it was interesting because like, okay, like it's, would you ever say, oh, Josh has blossomed? Like, I think maybe with me you would because I'm a bit fucking femme, but maybe these are feminine. Maybe is it talking down about someone saying, oh, they've blossomed or, you know, there's all this language, these things that we say.

Tommy: They're calling stuff like this microaggressions. Yeah. So, it could be the tone that you say something or the phrase that you use.

Josh: Yeah. But it's harmless. It seems harmless from the inside, like he's obviously coming from a good place. But the thing is, maybe it is in a reality that we're not accepting anymore.

Tommy: So, how did she react to it?

Josh: Well, so, so she reacted that that's what she said.

Tommy: So, you know, I know what she said, but it was she felt like he was, he would never say that to a man. Yeah. And it was pointing out that she is a female. Yeah. Fuck. See, this is where it's getting so PC. Like, I thought it was going to be something worse than that. Yeah. And maybe I'm totally out of touch.

Josh: No. But I mean, this is— and the person who was telling me this storey is female and was like, it seems like we're going a bit far. So, there's a few things.

Tommy: She felt a certain way, which is totally okay. Yeah. And he then can— He then probably felt really fucking attacked. Yeah. Because he was probably coming from such a great place. I think you gauge it, like if it's someone who's totally out of touch. Yeah. And you, like, they're not your friend really, they're a work pal and they've shown signs of this, you know, macho masculinity in the past. And then they say something like that. I think it's difficult.

Josh: I think that maybe some of these things hinder positive change because I— But I think that it's worthwhile. The thing is that if those things, the reason, you know, you and I have had really robust conversations over the last couple of weeks about feminism and the modern workplace and all these types of things. And what— One of the things that have informed me have been in these situations and gaining empathy. And so, these trigger points of these things happening, so, her doing it has done something positive because if anything, it's making people think. And so, maybe it's like, okay, how can we shift these things?

Tommy: So, I mean, he could just easily choose his words more wisely next time. But then if you were to go deep into it, and I'm not saying I want to, but it's like, are you pointing out, is she thinking that there is no difference between a man and a woman? Like, I don't know, maybe that's not even in her mind.

Josh: I think it's a con— Like, I think that what could sometimes— It's the same as I remember Talking to Fifi Box, who's a radio personality and a friend of mine, and she talked— She was telling me how she fucking hates when people call her bubbly. Oh, you know, Fifi Box is really bubbly because to her it's this like soft fucking wording, which is very— You don't really say, Tommy Jackett's this bubbly, like we don't— Like we use that bubbly is really a female-only word. And I think that maybe it's a way of— Maybe we're using it as a proxy for more, not malicious, but sort of negative connotations. So, bubbly is a bit of a fucking airhead. Bubbly is— It's a bit light. It's not necessarily going to have any depth. So, I think that, you know, words are fucking interesting. You know, I remember being in high school and just saying, "Oh, you know, this shit's really gay." You know, you'd say gay, you just fucking call everything gay. Yeah.

Tommy: It's because no one had come out as gay yet.

Josh: Yeah. Well, it's just the thing, like we were in a realm where we just, we didn't know anything else. And then you have a bunch of gay friends and you start, you know, mixing in in the fucking real world. And then you feel like, could you imagine, say, like, how, like, yeah, gross would it be to use those, those words? And that's why it's good for fucking going out and exploring and seeing new places and being around different people. It's not about being PC, it's about, it's about something else. Yeah, I don't know what it is.

Tommy: Yeah, well, I think that guy— bring it back to the blossom— can take from that that he wasn't in the wrong, but his word that he chose in the time that he used it, yeah, made someone feel a certain way. Yeah. And, and I guess like, if you're to break— you just step out, it's like, that's what you're seeing. And if you can next time choose a different word, yeah, you, you'll have less of an impact on that. I mean, what's another word? You've really grown. It's pretty easy. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. I mean, when you think of a woman, if she has— like, I see the descriptive word blossoms, like, you know, blooming. It's like females are, you know, beautiful, and sort of there's many things that they don't possess that men, you know, traits like the massive— like testosterone, it's like aggression and things that come along with that. So it's like his choice of words was— he probably thought it was more elegant than just saying she's really grown.

Josh: I think that there's From a hierarchical point of view, blossoming seems like something that happens early in a career. So, someone who's in a senior position, I could imagine saying, "Our interns have really blossomed." Maybe someone more senior who's like, it's— But fuck, it's not easy. It's definitely—

Tommy: What's the one after that? Bloomed. You blossom, then you bloom. But then you said it's words, so we're thinking words, so it does get down to the semantics.

Josh: But all of them would say, okay, let's not fucking use flowers.

Tommy: Okay, but at what point does it— the— what worries me, and I know we spoke about this in all these subjects, these in-depth subjects, about what the worry is, and the worry comes down to people being so scared to talk. Yeah, based on the fact that I use the word bloss— uh, blue Blossom or bloom? Anyway, one of those. Blossom. In a conversation. And when does it finish? And I know, because then you've got to look at these people's feelings is totally true. It's like, what is their reality?

Josh: And I think that some of it is saying, like, one language change that I made probably 3 or 4 years ago is I will call girls who are friends, mate. Hey, mate. Like I'll use the word mate. I remember that being a thing.

Tommy: As opposed to what?

Josh: Well, I just never used it. I feel like it was—

Tommy: Hey, babe. No. Hey, sweetie.

Josh: Hey, Bubby. Hey, Bubs. Hey, Babs. Yeah. Hey, bae. No, I think— Hey, babe. I just don't think that— I think some people would even say, oh, you don't call a woman a mate. Like, you don't say, hey, mate, to a woman. Like, for whatever reason, I just felt that like that was a thing, whereas Actually, it's probably longer. It's probably been more like 5 years where it's— I've changed that. I remember specifically changing that language where it's like, if we're going to create, like, we need to create an environment where it's like you can have men and women as friends and, you know, having that right dynamic. I don't know, it's sort of— yeah, it's fucking— it's a bit tricky.

Tommy: So in-depth, like, you know, that we're just scratching the surface of something that's thick, and then there's an inner layer to it because there are laws coming out around using certain words, pronouns for genders. It's crazy. It's crazy. Yeah.

Josh: I, yeah, I remember I had someone who on LinkedIn, I did a video with Christian Hull, a friend of mine who's a great, like, fucking hilarious, uh, comedian who does a bunch of videos on Facebook, who you know as well. And, uh, there was a photo of him and I, and I'm filming him and he's in his Trish wig. He does his character Trish. Yeah. And someone on LinkedIn said, I hope this video isn't transphobic. And fuck off. And so my response was, Tonka? Tom Tonka? No, that was— and it was someone— the thing was, it was someone who I had been following on social media, who had been going, had been having fucking testosterone injections, had been going through. So, I'm like, okay, they, he's going through, he's hypersensitive to this sort of stuff. He's projecting. But I think that it's a very interesting realm where it's like, where there's diminishing returns, where it's like, okay, The thing is that he's gone in and said this thing that is, um, I feel like it put me in a position where I was like, I said, I actually don't know if it's transphobic. Feel free to watch though, because I didn't fuck— is having a man dress up as a woman doing comedy, doing a parody, is it transphobic? I don't actually know.

Tommy: Okay, it's because then you go into the nuances of it. Christian Hall's a gay man. Yeah. Who is rather feminine.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: In his approach. And he's a lovely sweet guy. It's like, does that play into it? Yeah. Well, that's it. If it's me, you know, like I'm a bit of a blokey bloke wearing a wig. Yeah. Does that, I mean, that would probably seem more transphobic if you're ever going to compare the two of us.

Josh: And there was a little bit of that where I'm like, um, stop fucking picking on another minority. You know what I mean? Like being like, actually you fucked it because you're just, you're doing exactly what you shouldn't be doing. But it's so fucking complex. But I enjoy, I don't see it as a barrier. I see this thing as like, okay, how can we build empathy? How can we learn from these things? How can we, you know, I think that ticking boxes and stuff like that can sometimes make you a bit disenfranchised by the whole process. So, you know, like I'll have meetings where we're openly talking about, you know, people, talent in video. And I remember getting a friend in a photo with the CEO and she said, is this— she's Asian— and she said, is this for the whole fucking diversity card? I laughed, I said nah. But reality was it's like I wanted a different face. Yeah. And all of this, like, I'm so out of my fucking depth with this stuff, but it's—

Tommy: I get it. There would be a lot of people that In the behind the scenes, they are totally not being racist. Yeah. But they would probably come across it when their job is, we need to cast, we're shooting a film that's Mexican people within. Yeah. We need to find Mexicans. Yeah. It's like, in the way they'd be talking, I know it's very off the cuff. And so, it's like when this politically correct and for a lot of, you know, a lot of times it's right that it's becoming politically correct. Yeah. Helping minority groups, but there's also the other time where it's butting heads with this thing, it's what's going to happen.

Josh: And I think that what I've taken from it is even though things can go too fucking far, we shouldn't use that as a case to say we're not going to care, we're not fighting, we're pushing back on it. I think we support and we have our moments of like, ah, this seems like unnecessary and leave it at that. Because I think that I remember having my friend Cyan who is big in the diversity space, a female entrepreneur who's done amazing things. And she was talking about the negative impact in doing— in some of these discussions where actually pushing some of this stuff ends up hindering rather than helping. And that would be fucking a terrible outcome. So, I mean, you know, we're very fucking underqualified to talk about this shit, but I think we're touching on topics though.

Tommy: It's like we're We're definitely not giving our straight opinion or bringing facts that we aren't knowing. Yeah.

Josh: No, I think that we're just giving our fucking thoughts and maybe it's getting other people to think that maybe you are like us. Maybe you're just a couple of whiteys who have no sense of this sort of stuff. And maybe you're— And maybe this has given you something. I don't even know if you can say that.

Tommy: And maybe you could be Tom Tonka. Fuck you, bro. Thanks, everyone. Happy Wednesday. If you get trolled, don't bite back like I do. Yeah, just fucking—

Josh: Leave it and don't stop it from making shit, too. It's, you know, it's 37 degrees right now out in Melbourne.

Tommy: Thanks, weather guy Josh. Yeah.

Josh: And, you know, stay cool, everyone, and enjoy Wednesday. We'll see you tomorrow. Bye. Actually, you know what? Before we go. Yeah. Get people to fucking— If you are on iTunes, subscribe. Yes. And give us a review. Give us a review or just fucking rate. We've got 6 ratings now, all 5-star, which is fucking great. Next week we're going to start talking about this as well. So, hopefully we haven't said anything too offensive. Alright, bye guys.