Parenting

Tommy: It's a very low barrier to get into the Gronk Squad.

Josh: That's crazy. We've committed to do The Daily Talk Show for 10 years.

Tommy: Hi guys. Hi guys.

Josh: Put it in the calendar. I'd just like to cheque the temperature in the room. I told you my squeegee story.

Tommy: It is outrageous.

Josh: Come on, let's go. It's The Daily Talk Show episode 994.

Tommy: Yeah, 94. I mean, today was meant to be our 1000. Oh, tomorrow, 1000th episode.

Josh: No, it's not.

Tommy: No. Because we can't do maths. 2 2 is 5.

Josh: Have you had any other maths disasters in your life where you've miscalculated something?

Tommy: Not that's cost me. I mean, there was one the other day when I was driving back, which, okay, this is not maths, but it's relating to numbers. Sure. So, I'll give you a fucking story.

Josh: Also, cheque out the Numbers Game podcast. Great. Great podcast.

Tommy: Great podcast. So the public holidays for Easter fell on Friday, Monday. I schedule our wages to go out on the day, on the Monday. That's a public holiday.

Josh: Yes.

Tommy: So they were scheduled, they went out, but for some reason, banks, mate, where It's fucking over the internet. Are you saying there's someone that the bank has to be open for the transaction to go through? I don't get it. I do not get it.

Josh: Did it not go through when it was meant to?

Tommy: Well, it, it sent from our bank. Yeah. Through to yours and everyone else in the business on the Monday, which it was scheduled to do that. And so it should be automated. I automated that.

Josh: Yes.

Tommy: Which it should go out. We had some money in a different account that we transferred. Over because we're like, I will need this money. So we transferred it over. That was on Saturday. Yeah. We're in a country town with $1.70 in our accessible bank account.

Josh: So your personal— So you transferred. Okay. Yeah.

Tommy: So we had money coming from multiple places and it hadn't hit.

Josh: What'd you do?

Tommy: And it didn't hit. And it was Tuesday and we're waiting. Oh, sorry. This was Tuesday when we're driving back on that long road trip and we're waiting. And we're just thinking, well, because it— So the way you can get money is we had money in an ING transfer to an ING, but we just didn't have the money. We just hadn't had the foresight. And I was like, oh, I get paid, blah, blah, blah. So we're waiting in this country town thinking, fuck, I hope this money hits because we'll be here for a while.

Josh: That is stressful.

Tommy: It's so annoying.

Josh: And so what ended up happening?

Tommy: Amy asked her sister, can you spot us? $60 or $80. We put the petrol in, we drive an hour down the road, cha-ching.

Josh: It didn't hit the ATM.

Tommy: But we called ING, we're like, dude, what is going on? This is not normal. I'm thinking there's some fucking blockage in the system.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: But then I started getting real dark on the banking system of like, if it's automated and it's online banking, why stick to like open hours of a business when it's on the internet? Someone please send us—

Josh: So you're only doing crypto now?

Tommy: I only do crypto, 24/7 access.

Josh: You pay DOT?

Tommy: Yeah, yeah, I mean, that's all I've got. ADA, DOT. I'm gonna buy some, um, uh, Thera, I think it's called.

Josh: Um, anyway, is that different to Ethereum?

Tommy: No, there's another one. Theta, Theta, Theta. T-H-E-T-A.

Josh: Are you comfortable if you lose it all?

Tommy: Yeah, I'm okay with losing $450.

Josh: That's what I like.

Tommy: Yeah, I'll be at $1,000. I've got an investment happening next week. The door's open.

Josh: Okay. Tell me about that.

Tommy: So, 3-day sale. Can't tell you much more because I don't want anyone else to get it. It's going to blow up.

Josh: Well, so the Numbers Game podcast, which I mentioned, we produce that.

Tommy: Yeah. And you might have seen it on our Instagram stories.

Josh: Yes. Jase, Marty, Nick, it's, they're talking all things investing and like buying homes and all that sort of thing. And they, in the next couple of weeks, they have a segment around are my mates getting rich? This idea, or is my neighbour getting rich? This idea around everyone's buying shit at the moment, things are happening. And it does sort of make you a little bit nervous in regards to if people are getting ahead of ya. No, no. If people are sort of overleveraged or if they're sort of getting into that thing, which is like, oh, you know what? The house price is like, I just need to get in now. Like, if I don't get in, I'm going to be fucked.

Tommy: Yeah.

Josh: It feels like it's a risky position to be in.

Tommy: I mean, people have been risking money in those. So, there's risk levels.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: And so, buying a house, if you have a good deposit and a solid job and some money maybe to pay a few months of your mortgage, which is probably not the reality for most people. People are probably living like rent to rent or mortgage payment to mortgage payment, which most of the time is fine.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: Until you hit something like COVID. But I was thinking about, it's all just a trade-off. What are you willing to trade for that privilege or the option of purchasing something or living a certain life? Because it's like, thinking about a lot of our parents, a lot of people our age, a lot of people owned homes. Houses were cheaper. The wages weren't as high as they are now, but it seemed doable for people to purchase a home for $150K, $250K when two parents are on $40 grand. That's $80 grand a year.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: Couple of years of their salary would pay off the whole entire house. Where now, it's our salary times by 20. It's crazy.

Josh: Well, their interest rates were way higher compared to what we're experiencing now.

Tommy: But what also happened was as you held the asset, it fucking skyrocketed. So, there's all these people that bought this home, they might be still paying the mortgage. The house is worth 4 or 5 times the cost of what they purchased it for. But then I was thinking about like, think about the generations of shit parents.

Josh: What does that mean?

Tommy: Generations of parents that didn't communicate with their children, that worked a lot. I feel like, think about the woke generation or us knowing now how to talk to kids or what you should be doing as a parent.

Josh: You're trying to say, Bodhi, we're not going to have a house, but I'm going to give you a lot of cuddles. Is that what you're saying?

Tommy: I mean, that's an option. I love cuddles.

Josh: Who needs a big bedroom? When Dad's here. I mean, there is something in that, like there is.

Tommy: So, think about for us to get a house, to work our dick off.

Josh: Yes.

Tommy: And do long hours, potentially sacrifice of time. Like I feel it after spending a weekend away with my family and being with Bodhi. And so, I'm so impressed with the little man he's becoming. I'm just like, fuck, I don't want to lose that. Like, I love Seeing him, what is he doing? He's just a little guy. It makes me emotional. But just seeing him as a little man and then thinking about the time, like, I have to spend away from him, it seems fucking ridiculous to do it. But then it's like, what's the other fucking option? If you had all the money, had all the monies in the world, but if you had a whole bunch of money right now, I would choose to spend time with him and build up his character and do everything with him. But like, I think that's as much— that's a dream for most, because then it's like working also teaches him resilience and teaches him— it's a role model. I think about my dad, who's loving and had a father that probably didn't communicate like my dad does with me. And I'm like, fuck, that's a jump in generation of someone who is doing what they probably didn't have. My dad, my grandfather went to the war, you know, he'd had a lot of that baggage. Proper wearing trousers every day. Anyone who wears trousers isn't telling you they love you. There's too much time spent putting the trousers on or making sure they're right. No, I'm joking. But it definitely a different upbringing. But I see how hard my dad worked. But even when the time was he was home in the afternoon because he left at 6, 5:30, how connected he was with me in the time that he was home. And so it is, it's annoying because you go, fuck, I just want all that time.

Josh: What's the difference between being a loving parent and being a helicopter parent?

Tommy: How many toys you get. No. A loving parent. Helicopter parent.

Josh: I guess because if you— So, the helicopter parents, the idea of sort of—

Tommy: Oh, don't climb up that because you might fall.

Josh: Or even just like being— Yeah, I guess there's that element. But I'm even thinking there is something in giving a child space to grow. And so, to your point around going to work, I mean, like there's a bunch of development that happens Yeah, when he's out interacting in the real world without you.

Tommy: So then maybe helicopter, like a molly, molly, mollycoddled. Is that the right term? Of like you're, you're doing everything for them so that, yeah, it's a human needs to fail. A human needs to learn through failing or through hurt, but then also Yeah. So, the part of the equation you can control is how much love you give to your kid, which is a conscious decision, and how present are you when you are with them. But it's tough. Like, you think about the time, two parents working, having a kid. It's— the equation isn't nice when you work it out in terms of how many hours you actually spend with them.

Josh: Is this a new observation? Like, so, say you think about before Bodhi was born, and you thought what it means to be an adult, what it means to be a dad, what's changed for you, do you think?

Tommy: You just don't know what you don't know. So, before having the kid, you think about yourself and your partner or your family, like the people that you do, your friends. But then you see the impacts that— Think about the people in the world and the impact of their parents on them. You are, you know, the sum of the 5 people you surround yourself with. And your parents are close for the first, you know, many formative years of a human's existence. And so it, yeah, that's when it— I think you just see— I think I just see Bodhi and the kind of kid he is and, you know, how brave he is and, and how kind and loving he is, all these things. And you're just like, fuck, this is such formative years for them. I think it's just the dilemma that a lot of parents face. And I think it can come out as guilt because you can't spend as much time or you're trying to do things. I mean, it's a good thing to just question what it all means.

Josh: Have you thought about when Bodhi goes to school? Are you going to be the parent that picks him up at 3:30 or whatever? Is it like what? Like, because think about it.

Tommy: It's all hard. I mean, this is things I don't have an answer for just yet because it's still a little while off and it's like you gotta—

Josh: You almost have to plan that shit though too, right? Because otherwise it's like—

Tommy: A little bit closer to see the scene. Like you can make decisions quite quickly months out or before. It's like I'm just— Saw a woman down the street today and she had two little kids, very cute ones. Reminds me a lot of Bodhi. He's older, he's in prep or grade one or something. And she has a daughter as well. And they're at the coffee shop and I was like, oh, school holidays. She's like, yeah. And then I was like, so what are you working? What's going on? And she's like, yeah, I work from home, or she's a lecturer or something. It's like a real struggle. She couldn't get the kid into— the kids into after-school care, like a holiday program.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: And so she has to have the kids. And so it's hard because if you don't probably design your life, which I'm speaking from someone who hasn't probably designed their life in the way that would support that. Like my parents, which I don't think they probably designed their life like. I think it's so modern to be like, optimize, design your life.

Josh: It's—

Tommy: but my parents, my dad had a business and mum had her own business that she was flexible with, and so she could look after the kids and my dad worked.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: And so that worked. And we lived near the school. You know, there was many things that were probably in our favor, but I like, I'm like, did I go to after-school care? I think I can't even like really remember. Some of it I did.

Josh: I never did. I think that when I was really young, so from sort of prep to grade 6, so all of primary school, I think Mum was focused on us and then went back into dental nursing sort of year 7, which I think is sort of the perfect thing because like once you get old enough That you can walk home from school, you can unlock, you know, like you don't need to be driven around and things like that.

Tommy: I mean, there's new life, new lives, new lives. So, like Amy's mum comes away with us, comes away with us. She paid for the house. We went away with her. And she's mid-50s, late 50s. But she, you know, doesn't have kids living with her. She had 3 kids of her own and her new partner had, you know, husband has her— his own kids, but they've got a new life.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: And so, it's weird because you go, once the kids leave the nest, you can— there is a new life. Think about all the grey nomads that are like in a new adventure of their life. And so, it's— if you make it through, it's like there are new versions along the way.

Josh: And so, because I always I think that I'm a visual— like a visualizer. I'm always visualising what I want to be happening in the future. Like that idea of like, oh, you know, a few months out, I'll see how it is. I feel like that's so— it's so hard to execute on what you want based on that idea. So there's an element of fear, which is you don't know where things will be or what it is. But if you don't have the This is actually what I want. This is how long, like, this is, you know, Bodhi's going to school in X amount of months or years or whatever it is. How long is it now? Is it a year and a half?

Tommy: There's another whole year before he starts at school.

Josh: Yeah. But saying, okay, like, this is in the ideal scenario, this is what I want to do. Because it is hard to, like, I think most people, ourselves included, you are the, your previous decisions. So, the things that you did, the decisions that you made, 1, 2, 3 years ago is the reason why you're doing what you're doing.

Tommy: But he's 4.

Josh: Yeah, no, but as you— and so if you think about like, you know, business-wise, the decision of like staying in the business and all that sort of thing. So based on that, there is a lot to be said with like— so for me, like, I think about the, the golf stuff.

Tommy: I was like, please don't bring golf.

Josh: No, I think you could try and be relatable to one of your loves. So golf is strong love.

Tommy: Don't you dare tear up over golf. I'll It's beautiful.

Josh: Uh, your swing is beautiful. Yeah, what the swings become. No, but the, um, so that's obviously that, that's me saying, okay, like, I want to change my lifestyle. I want to be more active. I want to be more social. I want to be doing these sorts of things. And so that was like taking a step in that direction. Is this, is this unrelated?

Tommy: That's, it's classic.

Josh: It's a, it's a, it's a, it's someone without a kid talking.

Tommy: That's the funniness of it.

Josh: It's like, but don't you think analogy, but don't you think like, I think, um, like it's always, uh, it's, I mean, it's a, that's what parents will do, right?

Tommy: Like one of the most time-rich, um, things that someone, like if someone has time on their hands, if they're rich, they've got a lot of time, golf is the game for them.

Josh: Yeah. But I think like it's, it's funny because there's But I also think from a, like, an observation when I was a kid, because when you're a kid, like, everyone has some version of family dynamic, or that, you know, they, you know, everyone's grown up in some form of situation, whatever that is, with parents, whatever. Um, and I think the interesting thing is if you, like, for most kids, I don't know if you can relate to this, but I remember my parents sort of eye-rolling a bit at the, the friends who don't have kids or whatever, that don't get it. Or, you know, like, the people that are around, it's just like, oh, they're fucking You know, like, oh, of course I can do that because they don't have to worry about X, Y and Z.

Tommy: No, I never heard that. I think it's because I was probably hanging around kids and their parents. So they are the people that—

Josh: I feel like it's more the sort of the family, the, you know, the, the, you know, dad's siblings or mum's siblings or whatever it is where it's like, oh, you know, you've got the, the fun auntie or whatever it is that's got a bit of a different lifestyle.

Tommy: But a drinking problem.

Josh: Yeah, exactly.

Tommy: Looks fun from the outside. Very fucking sore head.

Josh: But do you think like the, I guess the thing with—

Tommy: No, you're spot on with the, I think it's, there is many things that are general advice that connect to parenting, which is how do you want that to look? And the year, like, I think the thing of having a kid in daycare where you've got, so you form a routine where you know that you can execute on the routine for many years. And so that's like a learning curve until you are in it. And then there's a new routine. Now that I know a daycare routine or having the ability to, you know, send a kid off in the morning, get them in the afternoon, like much longer hours, you're just riding that out. But then there will be a new one that will be a challenge and different. But it's thinking about like, um, uh, parent, you know, a parent who, uh, a couple that has one person working. You see how it makes a lot of sense. You see how the friction— you see how it is a full-time job where it's, you know, it's traditionally the male, but there's a lot of men now being stay-at-home parents because, you know, their partner can make a lot more money than they can and they see the benefit of it. So you do see how all those things make a lot more sense and why there is a parent at home or, you know, from a cost-cutting perspective. Running the numbers on it. I mean, school's much cheaper.

Josh: Well, don't you think, like, so my thought is around like parenting, whenever people talk about it, there's a lot of people who talk about the out-of-control nature of like, like, I've got kids, like, it's not— there's a, there's a version of it which is, um, I can't like control my life because I've got these things external to me Which I understand it's always a hard topic of conversation because I don't have kids.

Tommy: I don't know. I think I probably see a way to articulate it and I see where it can— the out-of-control thing can be. I think it comes from two people working and then both having two people that have— are wanting to do, you know, or exceed in their career or do something beyond what, you know, what they're what their life is currently and a child on top of that. Because there is like, because you can, it would make sense to you if I said there's a couple, one person works and is excelling in their career, the other person is up for looking after the kid and there's a teamwork there. It's like when one's snowed under, this person can really, this, you know, person can really take the brunt of the child rearing. It's like, and you see how the teamwork can, but it's hard when society that, you know, like living is expensive, different parts of the world, and two parents needing to work, but then also, so they're swimming in that together and both also wanting to do other things. You know, I want to fucking go and exercise, or I want to go this class, or I want to go out with my friends.. And so you've got two people that are butting heads in that respect. And so you see how it's like a kid on top of that with, oh, you've got, you've got, you know, like a no schedule or structure and support on the back end. So you can, you can structure it. I mean, people have survived this shit, but it is challenging.

Josh: What about like, I guess part of it is just wanting to have everything.

Tommy: Yeah, that's it.

Josh: Yeah. But, and also, so And I think that potentially that's where mental health issues are at the moment, is because like we, uh, we're told that we can do anything, we can be anything, we, we can have our cake and eat it too. You can have the awesome house, you can go on the holidays, you can do all of this. Um, and that's where I guess minimalism, like if you actually just draw back expectations around those elements of like, oh no, I can't, like it doesn't make sense for me to do X, Y, and Z. I just feel like there's—

Tommy: Well, think about this. So if Amy stops working and we live off one salary, if you were in the mindset of a two-salary existence and the spending that comes with the spending ability that comes with having two incomes, that's a hard existence. But you're saying the pulling back of like You can do a lot with one salary, but you just can't be as, you know, out there with your money or spending.

Josh: You can be time rich.

Tommy: Well, exactly. So, that's where there is huge reward in accepting a way of existing and then growing that version.

Josh: So, it might mean, you know, for some people it's like, I want to be within X amount of kilometres from the city or this or that. But maybe the thing is that like, to make it work, it is like, yeah, that completely different existence.

Tommy: Well, I mean, this is— and the comparison that creeps in of like, I want that fucking boat because Kevin and his wife had that, you know. Yeah, the jet ski. But this is where— this is the pain, because then you're feeling like you're without— you're without time, you're without money. But then, yeah, looking, flipping this, flipping the— which is minimalism, is actually being okay with having less or doing less or—

Josh: But it feels like it needs to be a conversation beforehand because it's very hard to— If you're not that type, if you don't see yourself being a full-time parent doing all of that, it is a hard, like, then it means that someone is making a sacrifice of sorts.

Tommy: Yeah. Because it does always sway the— It's the strategy. Without setting a strategy. Yeah, one will happen. And so that's a lot of people that it's just life happens. And so I just, I feel how hard it is to make the decision if someone was deciding to stop working and actually being a full-time parent. That's a tough decision if you've been tuned, you've been programmed to think life's about a career. Like, think about that.

Josh: But so what does that mean? So using that example, say if Amy was, wasn't working and was, you know, being a full-time parent, which is a job, and it's like the hardest fucking—

Tommy: most dudes couldn't do it.

Josh: Yeah. And so if you're using, using that example, I'm just trying to think of the— I mean, on the dudes, on the— I know, I just was thinking about the dudes thing. I think any— like, I don't think we can say men are this, women are this. Like, I just don't think, I don't think that that's a, that's a thing.

Tommy: Do you think like, yeah, no, I think, I think, um, there's many, there's many states.

Josh: So early stages, like a baby, obviously there's breastfeeding and all that sort of thing. But there's, if you're talking primary school years, it becomes a bit more of an even playing field in regards to you know, which parent could be doing it.

Tommy: Yeah, of course. Later, later in the life. Yeah. There's a lot that I couldn't do that would be just tough. And I mean, yeah, you could, you could, you could, you can bring up a child from day one as a man, bottle feeding and stuff. I mean, that, that is a reality. But I think there is a, a, in general, a generalisation, there is a difference. There is a slight difference. But I mean, it's just fucking getting into the weeds. But I think it's, there are a lot more men, which it's not like fucking Hooray for men that they're becoming fathers or they're choosing to be the stay-at-home person.

Josh: So, how do you make the decision? So, for instance, using that example, if Amy's like, "Oh, I actually want to work," and you want to work, like, how does—

Tommy: Yeah.

Josh: How do you work it out?

Tommy: Yeah, it's communication. I don't know.

Josh: What is it for you? Like, if you thought about being a full-time parent, what would that look like?

Tommy: Yeah, I think it'd be too challenging for my head of like, wanting to do, you know, like driven in a bunch of ways. I haven't started businesses for no reason. I think it's like done a bunch of them over the years, but it needs a drive. It needs some kind of drive to it.

Josh: But that's so— that's like the individual perspective of this is what I need or whatever it is. But say Amy's—

Tommy: but that's what you're up against. That's what you're up against.

Josh: Yeah. Um, but you can't— like, I think that the using the— like, I think that that's where we are in 2021, where it's not like the— I think that when we grew up, it was more gendered, where it was like, oh, you know what, like, uh, the is, you know, mother's group. You would— that was a, the common thing, right? Where it's like the, the— if you look at things like careers, if you look at all of these things that are tied into where women are in society, there's a bunch of it that is relating to this very issue, right? Because if you're— if you say, okay, you're going to take a year off, 2 years off, whatever it is, there's a big chunk of time that you're not doing the thing that you were planning on doing from a career perspective. And so then—

Tommy: It's huge. I mean, but The mother's group thing is usually women very early stages of having the child coming together, support network. That's what mother's groups are, local based. But it is at the time where you're heavily breastfeeding. It's like you're in the fucking fog of it all from just having a child. But then, yeah, I don't know where it's going.

Josh: So, I guess the thinking, that thinking that you have around, you know, I've—

Tommy: Oh, the career. I was just going to say, you can get a kid into daycare. At a few months. It's crazy. Like, you can get back to work.

Josh: And so, this is— But this is the whole point that we're trying to work out, right, which is like, what is the point of being a parent? And so, this is my, like, personal view on it. For me, it's like, unless I can— If I— My fear would be being a distracted parent. Being a parent—

Tommy: There's a lot of them. There's a lot. The world is geared to distract Parents or humans, and think about the thing in your pocket.

Josh: Yeah. And so it's not about being perfect, but I think that I internally don't feel like— I don't feel that sort of, uh, that that's my focus or that's, that's something that I necessarily want to go down. And so like, I've worked that out. But I guess from a societal perspective, you know, where there is that sort of, you know, you've got the, uh, the biological clock. You have all of these things which are sort of, uh, putting pressure on people to have kids. But if you can't, as a team, as a couple, trying to work out like what that version is, that's like hard, right? Because it means that— it means that someone is getting the sore end of the deal. Which also means that they're not necessarily going to be the best parent because they're not— I think that like part of potentially parenting is that like the parent's fulfilled as well. And like that's part of the whole experience.

Tommy: I don't think it's— It's never as clear as that. It's— Think about anything in life, the struggles actually help you figure shit out. And so, many people, they would have been confused about their existence and the children have, you know, helped them sort of get some pain into their— or some pressure under them to work shit out, to take a different path or to figure it out. And so that's what I like. There is a lot of adapting, learning and adapting as you go as a parent.

Josh: Did you have a conversation before you had Bodhi around? These are the types of— this is the parents that we want to be. This is what we want to do.

Tommy: No, nah, nah. Which I mean, fuck, it's a I think most of it probably, if it's not said in that respect, is inside of you as a result of your upbringing.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: So, for me, it's the kind of parents my— The kind of people my parents were to me. And so, wanting to take that on.

Josh: If you've got two individuals with two different stories, basically.

Tommy: But I think about all that. So, it's so easy to articulate for it to seem like there was some confusion, but there's probably a version of partners being aligned. Amy and I are aligned. Having a child is that synergy. We are loving, we are on the same page on many, many things. There is definitely worth. It's like saying I have never written my goals down, or they're just in my head, or I don't really think about— you know, there's a lot of people that find success writing them down, not writing them down, keeping them in their head, never speaking about— you know, there's million ways to achieve things. And so, parenting is a version of that, too.

Josh: Do you think that in general, in the idea of parenting, there is a vibe that don't overthink it, don't overcommunicate it, never a right time, just do it, you'll figure it out? Like, that's the vibe that I get.

Tommy: I don't think there's nothing about it. I don't think— There's a few things in there. Don't communicate it, probably isn't necessary.

Josh: Not don't communicate it, but there is a lot of figuring out.

Tommy: There's a lot of intellectualising you're doing right now about something you have no idea about. Not saying that's a negative.

Josh: But so, I do. So, my experience is choosing not to, right. In a society where it's like everyone expects you to have a kid, there's a lot of, and this is, I guess, what parents are probably listening screaming at the speaker. It is a trigger. I understand that this is a triggering topic, which is you don't know what it's like, blah, blah, blah. But there is, there's the other side of it, which is not having a kid is a big choice. And it's not, um, I think that the easy way to go is it's a choice of selfishness, or if it's, you know, it's a choice of, which I, I can see the, um, the connection when you say like the golf thing, right? Which is like it's someone who's wanting a life of leisure versus, you know, wanting to do something fulfilling or whatever, um, which I don't take on. Like, that's not how I feel about it. Um, but from a— from the perspective of, um, like, surely— so say if you're looking at the friction point now, there's probably a planning or conversation around, you know what, like, let's look at what you know, say 18 years, 20 years. It's a, like, a long time, but like, what does that even remotely look like? And if you visualise that and you can both as a couple say, okay, well, that's what we're— that's sort of where we want to go, because the conversations are going to happen anyway, right? Like, you're going to have to work it out.

Tommy: I mean, I do, I have all these conversations. It's just, it's— it— most people probably aren't having them as a a sit-down session every Thursday, which is a benefit to doing that every Thursday, but not Wednesday. Don't do Wednesday.

Josh: But even just think, I just think about like the, and I wonder how many, I feel like you're the common version, right? I don't like, I think if you listen to parents, it's like, oh yeah, like we had no idea. Like we're just, you know, sort of swimming and, you know, just trying to figure it out.

Tommy: And you do figure it out. I think that's how, that's how so many of us are here.

Josh: Um, yeah, I think it, like, I wonder, I wonder what the, for like new parents, if you look at like, because part of it is like, um, uh, cognitive dissonance, which is like you just keep, like, once you've done something, it makes complete sense because you are, you don't want to change where you are, and because you are where you are it's very hard to look back and say, oh, I actually would do X, Y, and Z differently. Like most— I think when you speak to most parents, they're less— there's only very few that I've spoken to where it's like, oh no, don't do it, like fucking don't do it type of thing. Everyone's on board at that stage. But it doesn't mean that there's not awesome lessons that people who are just on their journey of becoming parents that they would get benefit from? Was there anything that you heard— or sorry, was there anything that you experienced that you wish you had known before the experience?

Tommy: No, because I don't think it would have connected. I legit don't think anyone saying anything would have had a penny drop moment for me until you're fucking balls deep in it and actually—

Josh: and then impregnating.

Tommy: No, if it's like It just, it's like me pointing out the second birth or, you know, the things we know going into the birthing class is like, I just, even if I did that class, I still don't think I would have experienced it the way I am now, just based on never having the knowledge, like the actual lived experience. And so—

Josh: This is so weird though, when you think about like, so if you're going to Uh, if you were taking on something that was going to cost you $30 grand a year or $40, $50 grand a year or whatever it is, the lifetime cost of a child's a million bucks or whatever this day and age. Um, think about like the thought that goes into like the, the pragmatic, practical—

Tommy: I actually don't think we would have a human existence if we looked at it like that, because you wouldn't want to have kids like you don't want to Because fucking, dude, the maths doesn't add up. But the—

Josh: But there's something more than that.

Tommy: There's heaps more than that.

Josh: Which I get.

Tommy: The human population got down to something as low as 7,000 or something crazy like that on this earth.

Josh: Yeah, I don't know about that number.

Tommy: But it's fucking mind-blowing that we got down that low and now we're, you know, skyrocketing.

Josh: So, you're worrying that we're going to need to have more kids? Not at all.

Tommy: There's a lot. There'll be fucking 10 billion.

Josh: What do you think when you have a kid, for you personally, what's the— If someone said, why do you want to have a kid? Back then, what would you have said?

Tommy: I probably hadn't thought about it. I hadn't thought about it, but I had never thought— I'd never thought I don't want to have kids. And so, yeah.

Josh: It's interesting.

Tommy: It's beautiful. It's amazing. It's— It's a fucking miracle.

Josh: Like, I think that's what you were thinking before having kids.

Tommy: Never, never. No, it's untapped. It's tapped into, not untapped, it's tapped into a different part of your existence. Yeah, part of me that I hadn't felt before. It's like, I heard a guy talking about how he doesn't look at anybody in the eyes and a bit of an oddball, just because hates making eye contact, doesn't like it. But he's had it. Yeah, he's had a— yeah, was it the guy at the pro shop? But He, since having a kid, he just can't stop looking into this kid's eyes.

Josh: Oh, really?

Tommy: Just looking like, and I get that. It's like weird because I'd never think how weird, like I love getting close, nose on nose.

Josh: It's so personal. Do you know what reminds me of? Religion.

Tommy: What does?

Josh: Being a parent. So, for instance, like think about like a religion. If you're a religious guy and I start saying like what it like, and, and tried to put my thinking behind it, which is spreadsheets and the practical stuff, or, you know, projecting my version of what I think I want from life or whatever. When you have those conversations with people who are religious, it doesn't connect, right?

Tommy: Because it's like saying, was there actually a guy that turned water into wine? Was— did the seas really get separated by an individual? Because if you in your current form think that, that is able to happen.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: Have you ever seen in your lifetime? It's like, I get it, you look into it.

Josh: And so, but so there's, there's definitely like, yeah, if you think about religion, I've had a bunch of conversations with mates that are religious talking about this stuff. It's like, it's such a personal journey that it's like, oh, like, this is me. Like, if it— once it becomes so, so much of it is identity, um,. And I think the interesting thing is—

Tommy: I think it makes you question identity. So, it's like a part of your identity, but thinking about what it all means and spending all the time you do at your job. So, if you're a guy who's wrapped up in identity of, I'm the guy that does X at, you know, my business or at my job, but then it questions that and makes you look at why are you, why do you think that? Is that really who you are or is that really bringing fulfillment? So, but that's like anything. You pick up a golf club and you're like, holy shit, what have I been— why? Like, this is— ticks all the boxes. You know, it's walking.

Josh: Yeah. It's socializing.

Tommy: Socializing, mate.

Josh: Being out in nature.

Tommy: Golf clubs. There's only 4 allowed on the course at one time.

Josh: Yeah, it's perfect.

Tommy: It's great. Little amount of people. You just start seeing all the— And so, that's—

Josh: You see the signs.

Tommy: That's how everyone adapts to anything.

Josh: But the interesting thing on the identity stuff is I feel like if you were having a kid in the '80s or the '90s, there was less options to parents. So, it was just like you just fucking sucked it up and did what you had to do.

Tommy: Which is why I'm thinking about the different generation of kids.

Josh: But you think about now, but the problem is now it's like you have You have options. So, even friends of mine that have kids where it's like, oh, you know what? Like, I want to go and study or I want to do this or I want to completely change my career. How— Where does that fit in with everything that's happening? Right. It's people like, you know, mates that have multiple houses and they're talking about this. It's like, oh, it's going to mean, you know, taking step backs, stepping aside, like completely shifting their life.

Tommy: You can also have a kid and totally not be into parenting, not be into it. It's like, but you don't understand really why. Like, it's, there's, it's just inside of you is not. It's like women that say, I'm not maternal. They don't have a maternal bone in their body. That's a legit thing. Like, I just don't have the feeling for it. And so, yeah, it's, it's all fascinating. Humans. Yeah, humans are fascinating.

Josh: And so if you go back to the earlier conversation around seeing Bodhi, spending time with Bodhi, where do you, where do you sit? Where do you land with all of this stuff that we've just spoken about around identity and time and money and all of that? And then Bodhi, the child that wants your attention.

Tommy: Um, yeah, it's a, it's an ongoing thing that I'm thinking about. Like, I'm—

Josh: well, because that job thing, like, so using the example of your full-time, Amy's full-time looking after Bodhi, that compared to what you were talking about of missing, like, seeing that you need to spend time with Bodhi, you see how there's like a disconnect between what you're sort of describing is almost what we describe as like older generation, which is the dad might not be as present. They're always at work. You see that, you know.

Tommy: But there is a trade-off. Think about, I guess it's really being clear on what it is that you're wanting, which it's a hard decision for a lot of people. So, if it's money, like, or if you're chasing some dream that means you're not present with your child a lot because you're not there. It's like, but the result at the end is X. And so, that's where it's, I mean, there's probably people that are quite happy not being around their kid because they're chasing something and they're, and it's, and they've, but they've decided on that. So, they've got someone at home working.

Josh: But there's a bunch of rich families with kids that are fucked up because, because they're probably, they, you know, their parent thought that everything that they needed was you know, a credit card. And, you know, whereas the reality is that—

Tommy: I just want a fucking hug.

Josh: Exactly.

Tommy: But so that—

Josh: So isn't that like—

Tommy: There's, um, but that's someone out of alignment, but it— That— Or that has probably missed the cues, or, you know, but isn't— Most kids just want to be loved. There's not many.

Josh: So if that's the case, then it becomes this weird thing where it's like, um, if all they want is to be loved, then the idea of work and stuff, like you almost want to be like, how do you do the minimum amount of work that sustains a thing? But the problem is that there's this fear that I need to be buying, I can't be renting, I need to like buy a house so we can create security.

Tommy: It is a conundrum of life. It is the, if you had the answer, you could fucking make a lot of money from an ebook. And, and make money while you're playing golf. Yeah, that's the dream. Not making money playing golf while I was playing golf.

Josh: Yeah, just hashtag passive income. Yeah, passive parent income. Yeah, yeah. Um, any other thoughts?

Tommy: So let's workshop a few, um, golf-themed ebook titles about— let's just say you made $10 million while on the golf course.

Josh: What's, um, Swingers, how to make it big and swingers, having your cake and eating it too on the golf course. Yeah, you like that?

Tommy: The $10 Million Man.

Josh: Yeah. How's that relate to golf?

Tommy: It's not just you, you just because it needs to swing. Swingers is the golf, but then it's like has to— the guy that made it rich while playing golf.

Josh: I mean, you would— if, if you were writing a golf book, it would be balls deep in parenting.

Tommy: Yeah. Hole in One every time.

Josh: Um, we can do one more. Uh, you're just thinking about the green putting. Oh yeah, yeah, the putting for parenting.

Tommy: Yeah, yeah, yeah, putting, putting for, um Putting and parenting.

Josh: Putting and parenting. Yeah, the, the, the secret life of golf while being a great parent. All right, it's another talk show.

Tommy: Uh, if you're a parent and experience and have experienced maybe some of these, these thoughts, or if you're a person who doesn't want kids and has had some thoughts, throw us some questions. Because I think that's the thing, questions can circulate. You might not have the answers, like how do I work and chase my career but also be a great parent? Like, that's a question that's fucking hard to answer, but we'll give it a crack.

Josh: Hi@thedailytalkshow.com. Have a good one, guys.

Tommy: See you guys.