The Admin Guy

Tommy: The Daily Talk Show.

Josh: It's The Daily Talk Show, episode 904. Tommy Jackett, did you just talk over the intro?

Tommy: I think I might have. That's okay, that's all right. You know, you win some, you lose some. Out of 904 episodes, I mean, the—

Josh: when you're watching the election unfold, you can see the news anchors slowly deteriorate, just like you did then. Like, it gets a little bit, uh sloppy. You see they're putting on their glasses to try and read the teleprompter. Yeah.

Tommy: Is it like the 24-hour live stream episode we did? Just, you just get, you just do it. Your mouth is moving, you don't know how. Did you ever remember, I mean, yesterday we're talking a lot about SAS and Special Forces and Secret Service. Did you ever, I was fascinated as a kid about hearing about people who could sleep with their eyes open. It sounds dumb, but do you remember that? It's like, man, that guy can sleep with his fucking eyes open.

Josh: Yeah, I mean, the SAS versus SEO, which industry do you want to be in? We did that.

Tommy: Oh mate, there's nothing sexier than some search engine optimization.

Josh: You know. At the front of the show, thought I would say thank you to a couple of the reviews that we've had on Apple Podcasts. Kayla says, best find, love this podcast. I've got lots of spare time being a now stay-at-home mum, so makes prepping the dinner, hanging the wash, out, not so tedious. Quite often my husband asks me why I'm laughing and what was so funny. Keep it up, team. Shifty Steve 02 says the Daily Talk Show is both amazingly entertaining and relatable for all aspects of life. Love listening to all the stories, advice, banter, and all the great guests they have on. I find it inspiring at what Josh and Tommy are creating. Do yourself a favor. Thank you, Caitlin. Thank you, Shifty Steve. Love it. I mean, I spoke a while ago about, um, 10 seconds of admin. Do you remember that?

Tommy: Yeah, yeah, just a little, little zinger.

Josh: Yeah, so I had a bunch of stings and it would— and I don't even have it in my actual software anymore, but it would be 10 seconds of admin.

Tommy: Yeah, like, well, that's true.

Josh: Do you want me to do a radio?

Tommy: I guess you can just do a real one, can't you?

Josh: Yeah, well, I'll just say, you know, 10 seconds of admin. You like the Daily Talk Show? Well, share on Instagram, do an Insta storey and tag the Daily Talk Show, or even give it a share.

Tommy: It was, I reckon, 20% less carnival than that.

Josh: Really?

Tommy: Like, well, yeah, I don't think it was up at that level of kind of 10 seconds of admin like that. It was something like, yeah, it was a bit like that. I mean you don't like admin, so it was admin to even do those things about admin. So it's short and sweet. They were good.

Josh: I actually, um, I have a new mentor.

Tommy: Who? Seth Godin's your mentor, mate.

Josh: Yeah, I know. So I've got a new— I, I know, um, Pete Shepherd said, you know, you don't have to ask whether someone will be your mentor, it just sort of happens.

Tommy: Oh, you've asked?

Josh: Well, I sort of cemented it. Yeah, so I, um I was talking to, uh, GM Jess, the whip. Yeah, yeah, Jess Lucas. Yeah, and we're talking about some of the admin, and it came up because, uh, yesterday we had a, uh, you know, things are starting to get back into action, and one of our clients is a school, and they said, uh, you know, everyone just needs to get their Working with Children's check, blah blah blah, for the shoot. And we had a pre-production meeting And I'd known about the working with kids cheque for a long time. I actually had a volunteer one from years ago.

Tommy: Yeah.

Josh: And, uh, didn't get around to the admin because I had to go to the post office and get a photo. I was like, look, I'll have it by the shoot day, it'll be fine. Rock up to the school for the meeting, time to cheque in, they're like, I just need your, uh, working with children's. I was like, ah, well, I'm just meeting, just meeting one of the staff members, you know, we're not I go, it doesn't matter. Oh, it's not ideal. You don't feel great. I was sweating bullets. But it's just, yeah, it's not a great situation to be in at the front, like being declined access to a school. It's just not something you want on your record. Yeah. And it's just because everyone's just looking around as this guy's just sweating, being like, sorry, sir, you can't come in type of thing.

Tommy: Were you wearing your new shirt?

Josh: No, I didn't have my new shirt. Well, this is the thing I even said to— like, I was just first meeting out of the gate from COVID and it was just— it was a lot of work.

Tommy: Like, just mask on, right? You're, you're masking a majority of your visual communication cues, right?

Josh: With that also internalising all my heat, you know, I run hot. Yeah. And so I'm just feeling a bit sweaty. But the other thing too is I didn't have comfortable pants. So the first thing before I even got there, I called Jess. I said, okay, I'm wearing shorts, but I don't want to hear a mention of it, okay? Like, and just like, what are you talking about? I'm like, I know you'll bring it up. So no, you're just projecting. But true to form, there was like 4 things that she brought. Like, I got some folders that the paperwork was in, and I was just cautious. That I'd be criticised on the folder. But anyway, the mentor is Jess and it's around admin. She's good at admin. I want to become the admin guy. I was the guy who spearheaded Asana and then quickly stopped using it. I think everyone's using it. I know everyone else is using it. It's great. Our phone system, I haven't used that. There's a lot of admin. My emails, I was the inbox zero guy, currently have 79 unread email.

Tommy: Oh geez.

Josh: It's just a bit of a nightmare.

Tommy: At this point, is it like shedding 50 kegs? It's gonna be hard. Like, is it easier just to, I guess what you gotta do is you gotta lean into it and have a great mentor, which you've, number one, you found. Number two, Small steps, slow growth, Matt D'Avella vibes.

Josh: Yeah, I think just every week I'm going to book in a time and then we can go through the different elements, focus on different things. It's just—

Tommy: oh, is this with your mentor, you and your mentor?

Josh: Yes, because I think that the— if you think about it, like for me, it's when I'm doing creative stuff. So the very— the hard thing about the creative industry, if you're in a— if you've, you know, whether you're an editor or you're a designer or whatever it is, it takes some emotional energy, it takes some emotional labor, it takes some creativity to get the work done. And I think the people who do that don't necessarily— like, sometimes lean more that way and struggle with some of the more obvious administrative things. And so if you can combine them, if you can become the admin guy and the creative guy, that feels like a power combo.

Tommy: Yeah, what's in the middle between it being like Josh is known as the admin guy, which I don't think you actually want to be known as the admin guy.

Josh: Well, no, I don't want to be the admin guy, but it's just I think that I to and fro between these different states, and so if you catch me on a week where I am being the admin guy, you would assume about it. Yeah, you know about it. You would assume that this is just—

Tommy: you're the vegan of admin people, always talking I think I get—

Josh: I can go through a really solid stage of like everything's in the calendar. And during that week of admin, when I'm doing all of my admin, anyone not doing their admin pisses me off. And so I'm just like—

Tommy: I know, I know. But I think for me, the slow, just little bit is so much more powerful over the long run. And you know that. It was like last month, the step thing is like just you can win by just doing less but more consistently. So, how do you do it?

Josh: You need to put it in the— So, the thing is, this is my thought. So, the admin guy, it's not— It's about putting it in the calendar, putting it whether it's half an hour, but just time to like, I'm gonna cheque my email and I'm gonna make sure it gets to this point by this time.

Tommy: But if that's not the— Yeah, you're talking about habits at this point. The habit Well, that's all that admin is. Usually people form is— There's a bit, there's probably a slight different part of admin.

Josh: Well, no, no, no, I think it is all about habits. So think about it this way. The person that's late to things, like I was saying this to Bri, like when we were walking to Mr. 97's 21st birthday, we had our arrival set for the exact time that we needed to be there.

Tommy: Yeah.

Josh: And I was like, I want to be the person and the couple that is always early, early to everything. And so if you think about it from a habit perspective, it all comes down to habits. It's all saying, okay, the habit is that I have my shoes on and I'm ready to go 10 minutes before I would need to leave.

Tommy: Yeah. And so the habit of admin, is it that the habit means you'll do it whether you hate it or not, or you do want to do it or not?

Josh: So it's, it's just a default thing. When you get a bill, just pay the bill straight away. Just those sorts of things. Yeah, every single—

Tommy: I mean, but also you're, you're not the, uh you're not the mentor here. So we need that, we need the person who's great at admin, because I reckon I fall in the middle. It's like I'm not good nor bad, I'm just in the middle, which you just forget about me at that point.

Josh: But forget it.

Tommy: How do you— yeah, yeah, admin forgettable, it's what I strive for in life. Um, but yeah, so it's that the habit bit in the middle where you— oh, it's just not go fucking extreme. It's like any weight loss thing where if you went extreme, you fall off this end in a week's time and eat, you know, 12-pack of Krispy Kremes. Watching—

Josh: yeah, I mean, but the thing is, the thing to consider is I am an extreme guy.

Tommy: But do you have this build in extreme circumstances?

Josh: Well, no. So this is the— this is the— I think that I'm slightly being misrepresented. So if you think about it this way, the Daily Talk Show— no, well, like, in the thing, in, in your thinking around it So there's the big goal, there's a big change that you want to make, and then there's the small habits that you have to get there. So for instance, the Screenplay Sundays are saying g'day on the, um, on YouTube Live.

Tommy: Oh yeah, g'day.

Josh: So for instance, it's like doing the Daily Talk Show, doing 900+ episodes requires an extreme belief, an extreme expectation that you have, but then it's whittling it down to the very smallest thing. So, the things that have always had impacts in my life do have that first step, which is think extreme, think big. This is where we want to, like, I want, like, I want to create something awesome. And then whittle it down to here are the very small steps. I think that sometimes the risk could be that, uh, the— you know, and there's a— BJ Fogg has the, um, his book on habits. There's The Power of Habits as well. There's Atomic Habits by James Clear. All of these books talk about You know, whether it's keystone habits, so the small thing of like, I'm going— like, what is the one habit that will then domino effect across your life? So for instance, it could be drinking a certain amount of water a day will set off all of these other things. Or yeah, putting out your clothes, working out your clothes in the morning will then stop the frantic nature of where are my shorts, where's this, where's that. Do all that sort of thing. So the thing is that definitely you can't— if someone says, I want to make a feature film, there's a dream, but then there's the micro steps that you have to get there. And so I think that the— what can sometimes happen is we look at people who have big dreams and we maybe disregard, always say, nah, mate, like, that's outrageous, but some people get their sort of energy from thinking about it, thinking about the big thing, sort of imagining it, visualising it, and then the next step. So I think that that's fine. I don't think that the— there's nothing wrong with dreaming big and aspiring, and aspiring to be the best version. I think sometimes what can come across is when someone says, oh yeah, I want to be able to run a marathon or do this thing I understand the world can say, mate, if you just did a walk around your street, you'd be doing better than you're doing now, which makes complete sense. But there's a version which is saying, no, you can get there, but to get there, there's these micro steps that's like, yeah, you know, one day at a time, you can build all that sort of thing to then get to the point that you want to get to.

Tommy: I think there's a lot of dreamers in the world that don't make it past the dream, and that's where people— when you refer to people— look at the, the people that talk like in this big way, like, fuck, you know, like it's— you're— there is a version of someone who does use it as motivation to, to run a marathon when that's the first thing they say. But then how do you create all those habits where you just have forgotten that you're even trying to build a habit because it's It's your way of operating.

Josh: It's just, you know, that happens, that happens over time. And so the thing is that you don't, you don't naturally— it doesn't just happen with on day one, right? And there's like a confidence and all of that sort of thing. But I think for me, I like, like, I think, like, thinking about dreaming big, and I've seen it so many times where it's like people's circles, who they're with, it's like, oh, you don't need to do another podcast, or you don't need— oh, or this or that, like all those things though. Like the problem with, uh, with the thinking around bring it small or like make it small so it's, it's tangible, unfortunately gets lumped in with the same thing that's keeping people from dreaming big and doing it small, right? So what happens is it's, it's not this off-on switch. It's not like you either think big or you think small. There is a hybrid that can happen where it's like, okay, let's think big. Think about like, yes, you can do all of this sort of stuff, but you're going to have to start at the beginning. You have to— going to start with one, one foot forward. Um, and so I think there's probably a— there's a lot of people, I think that I'm one of them, that can sometimes— like, the tone in which people speak about other people's goals, it's sort of like, oh, you know, like you become identified as that person, right? So for me, I've done a lot of things, I've tried a lot of stuff, I failed at 99% of it. And so if I was to look back and say, okay, I'm going to look at what's previously worked and what hasn't worked I probably wouldn't do a lot of things. And so the thing is, it's like the only thing that we can do is have another crack, have it. And so the, the risk is the gunner. If you're a gunner person, I'm gonna do this, I'm gonna do that, there's not much in there. But it's like if you're lighting the, you know, if you're, you know, lighting the match, it might take 50 times for you to light the match before it proper, you know, probably properly catches light. And so I think that, yeah, I definitely— you got to start small. But I think that I have— there's been so many examples in my life where the thing that has been most valuable to me is because I was the guy. I was the video guy. It's worked out okay for me.

Tommy: Yeah. And so there's a version of dreaming big which is internally driving motivation. I think what you're saying is when the internal dreaming big into, you know, like meets external people that aren't you, that are just either trying to suggest or guide you in a way to get there. And so there is a trap in thinking that way too. There's a trap in that it feels really good to live in the future because you're not there and there's all this hard period of time to get to where you want to go that is going to require a lot of energy. And so yeah, I think, I think there's a, a version of both that you just can work through. Not you personally, but just, you know.

Josh: Yeah, it's just, I think there's a, there's a— you need to be present and you need to be thinking about everything in sort of a present state of what can I do now, what's that version that I can do now. But I think that the—

Tommy: So then what are you looking for in a mentor? How do they guide you through that?

Josh: Well, so the thing is that I've got no problem in the dreaming bit. Some people might. So some people, their mentor needs to be the one that looks at the macro. They look at the big thing.

Tommy: It's like, here's the possibilities.

Josh: Here's the possibilities.

Tommy: Yeah.

Josh: I'm the possibilities guy. I'm like, this is what, where I think it can go. And so for me, in the areas of admin, it's the tactics. It's okay, like what are the small little things things that I just need to do to be able to get to this point.

Tommy: What are the traits of someone who does good admin? It sounds so silly.

Josh: I think a good admin does— I think it's just— I think the thing is, so this is where I fall into things, I spend more time stressing about the thing I need to do rather than doing the thing. Yeah. So I stress about going to the post office for weeks. If I just gone to the post office, only took me 10 minutes. If I'd gone to the post office, I could have avoided a world of pain. And so there's so many examples of that where it's like, oh no, I've really got to do this thing, or now like, uh, and so you— I'm constantly thinking about it, and that is like, there's a resistance there. Um, and so yeah, what are the qualities?

Tommy: Literally, there's a new feature on the meditation app that I use, it's called Moments, and it like shoots a moment to your screen. It says tap on this and it gives you like 40 seconds of audio. And one of them the other day was literally, you know how you have those moments where you were thinking that you need to do something and you— it's exactly what you're saying. And it was just about leaning into it. How about embrace that energy that you're feeling and actually do the thing? Which I was like, that's annoying because I don't want to have to do this. Like, it's exactly what the opposite would say. But it's totally right. It's like, how does that become an alarm system for you to be like, that's when I fucking do it?

Josh: Well, it's this, to be honest, I'm gonna sound like a broken record, but I felt really good doing the Second Brain. I had my Second Brain, it felt very good. And so the thing is that there is a version.

Tommy: Did it do your admin for you? Did it?

Josh: Yeah, well, no, so this is the thing. So it does. So the admin, so what is the actual problem? So, the problem isn't— So, if I use the washing as an example, okay.

Tommy: Here we go, Ben Fordham's going to be calling you.

Josh: Yeah. So, the washing doesn't take that much time. It doesn't. It doesn't. It actually doesn't take that much time. You know what I mean? If you're listening right now, you're doing the washing, you probably get through, you probably get the washing done before this podcast ends. Washing doesn't take that much time if you do it regularly. And so the thing is that I don't have the internal— so I'm lacking some internal systems. I'm lacking the internal system at the moment to be like, you know what, just because the food's there doesn't mean you have to eat it. That's one internal thing. Or the internal thing of it's like, oh man, I'm like, I'll spend days being like, fuck, what am I gonna— like, none of my clothes are clean. It takes me a long time the— I have to get to crisis mode. I have to get to the point where it's like, you know what, I've got no undies left. Am I gonna be a bit— am I gonna— what's not even a blow-up, it's like, I have to deal with this. I said to Jess, I was like, when we had the meeting, I'm like, I'm sort of a little bit agitated because the only undies I have are my uncomfortable undies. Yeah, exactly.

Tommy: They're lazy as shit, riding up my ass.

Josh: It's very annoying. It's very annoying. And so this is the problem. And so I think the answer— I understand, let's go slow.

Tommy: Nike came up with it.

Josh: Yeah, just do it.

Tommy: Just do it.

Josh: Fucking do it. So you just need to— But the thing is, I'm not being the excuse guy. I'm definitely not being the excuse guy, but we've got to recognise for the guy who wants to be good at admin, for the guy that wants to be on time, the guy that wants to be all of these things, the guy that wants to, be fit and healthy, something's in the way.

Tommy: I think it's the mind, literally, you talked about it. It's that person in your head saying, well, it's you, it's just your internal dialogue about why you shouldn't go to the post office, why you shouldn't go to the coffee shop.

Josh: So, the thing is, so it's the mind, yes, but it's the system, the operating system as well. So, the thing is—

Tommy: Which is the mind.

Josh: Yeah, but I think, I think that there's a, there's a distinction between— so your mind, your mind I think is potentially this like personal, this personal thing, right? You are, you're attached to your mind. You are your mind, potentially. This is how I feel anyway. When I talk about operating system, so what I like about operating systems, operating systems develop. If you go back to the old macOS, it was different. It was fucking slower. The user interface was different. And then they iterate and they get better, and over time they release new versions and they release. And so the thing is that your mind isn't this static thing. You can choose. You're like, hang on, this, this makes no sense that every time I click here it does this thing here. And so what I'm saying is it's like, okay, I need to update my operating system. Now the thing is, if you change everything at once in an operating system, the user gets overwhelmed. If you— if, if we, you know, with iOS, if they did everything at the same time, if they had widgets, Siri, all of those things all happening at the same time, the user would be like, I'm overwhelmed, I'm not going to do any of them. And so the thing is that how many people have updated their phone with widgets, and it's because there's not that many other things to do. If there's 40 other things to do on your phone at that time—

Tommy: but how are you operating— updating your operating system? Are you talking about externally or internally updating your operating system?

Josh: So internally. So what it means is, so the operating system—

Tommy: but is that not your mind? It's just not just growth within your understanding of your own self? That is the operating systems. You are like— I think you talk— you talked about the ego is self, our, our understanding of we are an individual, we are self. That is the ego that drives us. And so are you trying to understand of upgrading your thinking about your experience on the earth, or Are you needing— like, I'm still stuck with how we install widgets in your head.

Josh: No, so the thing is, so this is, this is—

Tommy: would be good, you could answer the weather, mate. What's the weather? You'd be like, fucking, it's 28 and bullying.

Josh: So the thing is, it's not about changing your mind. I don't think it is about changing your mind. I think what it is is it's about giving a structure, a decision tree that determines what you do. So the— I think that people that have this issue with admin, they just need to rework their decision tree. They just need to rework if this, then that. So at the moment, the if this— if I get a bill, if I get a Telstra bill or whatever, wait until I get the second email. Like, when I get the second email, then I'm like, oh, fuck, they're gonna cut me off. And so I'll like— because— and then I'm like pushed. I'm like, fuck, I need to update this because if I don't, I'm gonna— like, that's gonna be really annoying.

Tommy: So that's the wrong way? That's the wrong one.

Josh: So this is, yeah, this is the thing. So then the other operating system, I run out of undies, okay, then I am going to do this. And so the thing is, it's not really changing your mind, it's changing the operating system to say, okay, once a week, do the washing, or when I get to this point. So the thing, think about it like my beard. I wait until my neck beard gets disgusting. I wait until I hate myself. And then I'm like, okay, so I'm gonna shave, I'm gonna shave. But so surely there's another version. And so this might be very easy to some people. Some people are probably listening going, you are absolutely off your chops. But do you, do you get it?

Tommy: I— no, I get that, but I don't know how it solves the, the internal battle, which I think is the core problem of why you don't want to go to the post office and how it's such a big thing. So the bat— so it's like you take away the battle, understanding the energy I don't think you can just remove it like you're saying by having a decision tree. It's like, it's actually a pattern of, I won't go to that thing because I'll have to interact with that person. Get like, it's all of that along the way that has to change in the thinking to make it more easy to install a decision tree. Because that's the decision tree, either is you saying, I'll just fucking do it no matter what my internal speak is, because I know it has to get done.

Josh: And no, because you end up doing that anyway. But now, currently, I use external forces, so the washing does happen.

Tommy: But no, the external forces become your internal though.

Josh: And so, that's what I'm saying. So, the thing is that if you look at all of the stuff, so if you look at, okay, I'm only going to do my washing when I have to, right? When I have to, what does it mean to to have to do something. It's like, okay, when I, like, I have no other options. And so, the thing is, it's just changing that internally to say, when the basket's full, that's what I'm going to do. Or when these 3 things are in the wash, this is when I'm going to do it. And so, then it does need to be, there does need to be, 'cause the thing is that the difference between between feeling great and not feeling great is very, very, very small changes. And the other thing too that we're considering here is it's like, this is like the mental health thing as well. This is like the ego depletion thing. This is like, I fucking used all my willpower. Like, I'm using all my willpower on doing this other thing that all of these other things drop. So for me, it's like concentration. Like, if I'm doing— if I'm spending hours doing an edit, it's like I can't Like, I can't multitask. I'm just doing all of these things. And so if I know that, I can say, okay, I'm going to get up at this time, and then when I get up, I'm going to do— you know, BJ Fogg talks about the first habit that you can build is when you wake up, you plant your feet on the floor and you say, today is going to be a good day. It seems ridiculous. It seems, uh, it seems like it's not necessarily doing anything, but if you can build those tiny little things— because I see, like, Bree's very good at admin Bree's great. Like, and so Bree has an internal operating system where it's like there's a level of anxiety to it because like, I can't, can't, uh, can't miss this bill, can't do that. Like, and so I think that there's just so much value in thinking about it. And it's not about some sort of— like, when I say operating system, it's not some sort of crazy shift. It's saying I've tried to do it within the business. So the operating system, so an operating system within the business is it's like, okay, when someone requests something, if someone or someone wants a task done, what's the pro— like, what's the thing? How do we keep ourselves accountable?

Tommy: I, yeah, I just think there's a step before, which is the internal stuff, working with the internet.

Josh: So what is that? So what do you suggest?

Tommy: Why, uh, I'm not your mentor, um, but it's— but there is a version of Understanding slightly a bit more about what that means of the, the guy who doesn't want to go to the post office and, and the resistance, and, and then working with that energy and working before it's even landed on the decision. It's like, what is it? What does that all mean? What is it? What's it doing? Where's the benefit? The cost analysis on your current internal processes that you're using and where you could land. Yeah, I think that—

Josh: go, where I could There's a like, so what you're describing is like the metacognition stuff, which is like thinking about your thinking, why you think this way.

Tommy: It's beyond that. It's because I don't think it's, yeah, I don't know if it's just about like just using more thinking on that.

Josh: And so that's what, so what I'm suggesting is you've got to do something. You need to take these steps. What is the step before that?

Tommy: Um, look, I'm not in the right place to tell you because I'm not your mentor.

Josh: Yeah, but what do you think? What, what's the— because I feel like you disagree. What do you, what do you think?

Tommy: No, no, no, I, I don't disagree. I think I just don't think necessarily the, the fix is a decision tree where it's like, if I don't, I need to do this, I'll do— like, I just, I feel like there's so much there's a barrier between your mind and that thing that you even have to fill, you know, do the washing once the basket's full. There's so much time in between those two things going on where you're— where—

Josh: well, so a decision tree is old patterns, but it's not easy. So the decision tree is probably not the right word because it's not really tree, it's a single thing. These— it's how— what is the minimum?

Tommy: Is a great idea.

Josh: And so yeah, that's exac— That's a better language for it. It's saying—

Tommy: I would love to understand the psychology behind someone who is great at admin or what it even means and where you're at.

Josh: It's the if this then that. So, here's one example when it comes to food, okay? So, when you, from an external forces perspective, are you someone that eats everything that's on the plate? And so, that idea it seems tiny, but if you're driven by the external force that how much is on your plate, then you have no control over how much you're eating because you're completely driven externally from that perspective. And so—

Tommy: There's a bunch of patterns and, yeah, so that is a pattern that you've developed, not you personally, but someone who's grown up and there's all this history behind why they eat everything on the plate. Scarcity, didn't know when their next meal was. The brothers would fucking steal their food. They, you know, need to get it in. And so to break these things, it's not just like, I don't do, I don't eat that. Like, there's probably some more. And so what I'm saying is, you're a complex dude. There's probably some complexity to how you solve some of these things that aren't even admin.

Josh: Like, that's actually simplistic. I think the thing is that what you're I think you're trying to say is it's like it's a complex issue, so we need to look at it in a comp— like with more complexity, or we need to think about it in a bigger—

Tommy: To get to simple, which is the simple.

Josh: But the thing is that this is like, from what I've read, uh, with, with like a BJ Fogg's book and with, with all of these habit books, is it's like it's really small. It's always the surprisingly small things that then get you to do the thing. And so it's— if you look at it where it's like you are complex, and so the only way that this is going to be fixed is with this, because it's very unclear. I think that the feedback that you're providing, if I was to go based on that, where do you start?

Tommy: See a psychologist. Yeah, I mean, have someone external sort out and give you perspective. I can't, 'cause you wouldn't listen to me even if I tried to give suggestions on what I thought. It needs to come from somebody who would be able to sort of understand why someone does what they do. And then it's like, well, and that's what I mean complex. It's, I just mean more, more intelligence is needed. I think that would probably play into what you like, like someone who actually has information that is well thought through, not just like, hey, when you have these moments, how about drop the story? That's not going to help. Like, that is a way to do it. See it as energy. See what's going on internally is just this energy. Use that as a form of concentration to sort of let it dissipate. So when there's less energy involved in you having to go to the post office, maybe it's just going to the post office.

Josh: So what's worked for you?

Tommy: Well, I don't know what we're talking about here. This— we're talking about admin. Oh, habit change. Habit change. Well, the coffee thing, I've stopped, I think.

Josh: And what were you seeking from that?

Tommy: Um, stopping coffee was— I don't know, I quite like to do little challenges to see how, how much change they bring me. I'm only— what is it, 5 days in? It's just interesting to see the difference in how you can feel from not taking something external, um, and then seeing the— so in answer to your question was, what, what did you want from that? Is that what you said?

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: Well, initially it's just like, will 'No coffee in the morning reduce anxiety?' And the answer is yes, for sure, for sure. And so that was the main thing. But there's parameters around the month and see what happens after that. It's like drinking. It's like, for me, stopping that for a year was a challenge. I'm just trying to place all these things to see where you end up putting, or what's important, what is crucial because I don't think it's about doing more. And so stopping something allows some space for me to see the, the benefit, the cost-benefit.

Josh: And so when we have aspirations, so we have these aspirations of ourselves— I'm going to do this, I'm going to do that— for you, like a few months ago, you spoke about the boxing. You're going to do a lot of boxing in the backyard. Have you found, like, is it just something?

Tommy: No, I think there's something to stick. No, some things, that's what I'm trying, that's what we spoke to Seth about. I was like, I don't know what makes it stick. So last month doing the steps, I make that stick.

Josh: And so the boxing?

Tommy: No, I haven't made that stick. And so what do you think?

Josh: What's been the difference between the steps and the boxing?

Tommy: Well, I think there's something, I can't tell, I actually don't understand it. I actually don't know necessarily what it is. Is it competition? Is it the, uh, duration of time thing that allows me to then, you know, is it the least amount of friction possible? No equipment needed, fucking put your shoes on, do the thing that you always do, you know, every day you walk. So is it that? And so I don't, I don't know the answer because yeah, I, I don't have the chickens know it. That's not a fucking goal.

Josh: Well, I think this is all admin. No, this is what I'm talking about, right? This is—

Tommy: these are things.

Josh: But so how do we— so we all say that we're going to do these things, and yeah, but these— and I'm very— I think that I'm very open with— I'm just an external, like, very external in my communication. So it's like if I think about something, I'll bring it straight away. And so part of the The pain is that you don't always land. You, like, 70% of the time you don't, but then the 30% does. And like, there's so many people— like, I think that's a common thing. I think everyone, if you are aspiring for big things or if you're wanting to change your life, you're coming up with things that are going to make you uncomfortable, things that you couldn't do yesterday. So if you even look at that, like, what's that like using the chicken thing?

Tommy: It was like, yeah, but I think we're talking about like, if you're relating it to— you're identifying something in admin that is letting you down in what you're trying to do. I— so there's a difference between admin of getting a fucking chicken coop so we can have some chicken eggs versus writing emails, responding to, you know, do all the things you outlined earlier. It's like at that point I haven't identified chicken coop as something that is letting me down if I don't do it.

Josh: It's like, well, so there is a thing, but so, but it is, but it is, there is the, um, I think that it acts from the same place, but I think that it's—

Tommy: one's not my identity. One, like, I, I don't see it as a problem that it's— that it hasn't happened now. And so What is the opposite? What about the opposite? Lean into it. You are the absolute worst admin dude on earth.

Josh: You've won the world record. This is what like some people do. And some people, if you are that way inclined, you can do that. There are like, I've got mates who they don't have to be that great. They don't have to be great at admin. Look at Casey Neistat. He doesn't, he He's landed in a place where he's like, I don't have a calendar. I rock, I can rock up an hour late to things. But the thing is, it's hugely impactful to the lives of others. And so there's a self-awareness piece which is like, we can say, I can say, uh, oh, I'm just not good at this. I'm not like— but the thing is, I think that a lot of times when we say I'm not good at this, what we're actually saying is this isn't important to me. I'm not going to prioritise this thing. And so there is huge benefits. Like, I think like one great example is when I used to edit when I was younger, I was a messy editor. And when I say that, it's like you just have bins, which is sort of like folders or whatever, in, in the software. You just have shit everywhere, right? And you just sort of like— and, and, and we use this excuse in creativity where it's just like, it's just a creative process. I just have to Yeah, just go through this thing and then it happens. But what happens is when you're working with a team, when you're collaborating, when you're doing all of this sort of stuff, you then— you actually need to be more— you need to be self-aware, you need to be thinking about some of these things, you need to be improving. And so for me, it's like when I'm doing an edit now, I do the extra organised bit up front, and it makes it a joy to edit. And so that storey around I'm creative, I can't do this thing, it's like, uh, it's like what Seth talks about with authenticity. It's like you don't have to be authentic all the time. You don't have to, you don't have to love doing the washing. You have to be your authentic self doing the washing. You just have to do it because it will reward you. So if you think about like using the boxing, or what is it, rather than me projecting the things that Well, I think they're way off in terms of—

Tommy: and I don't think they're the same.

Josh: What have you done? What are the things that— because it's easy for you to say, to look at what I'm putting out and say poke, or—

Tommy: well, that's a conversation. This is what we're having. It's not a, you know, what's your version? What are the things that—

Josh: what's the things that you want to get better at?

Tommy: Um, yeah, there's a— there's— so for the last couple of years, there's been the year of no alcohol and exercise every second day. And then I've continued the no alcohol— sorry, I've continued the meditation every day. The exercise has not been one that I've managed to make stick every second day. And so I'm trying to work out the blend of what does it look like to, you know, have— do less coffee less fucking— more exercise, more meditation, and sort of have them intertwined. And so that's where it is, a goal of understanding my resistance to things and where I need to just stop or lean in to, to different areas. So I don't have a specific one.

Josh: So what's the biggest challenge then?

Tommy: Um I don't see a big challenge. I'm just seeing—

Josh: So if you think about like the workshop we did with Michael Bungay Stanier, like someone saying, I don't see a big challenge.

Tommy: No, I'm— it's— so the biggest challenge is my mind, like it is for all of us, of just like what Making it happen, getting it done, putting something in place that it means that I have to do it.

Josh: And so when you talk about doing it, when you talk about the do it, putting something in place, what is that?

Tommy: Just start, get out, get fucking whatever, start moving, um, do a practise every day.

Josh: So the whatever, the thing, all that sort of thing, like that's coming from this place of like we're using the thing that's potentially a little bit inconsistent, which is our mind, to try and in the moment be like, oh, this is a thing that I think that might move me forward. But I haven't thought about it.

Tommy: We're not— I haven't articulated what I'm wanting to do or what I'm like.

Josh: But what are the three things?

Tommy: Oh, it's not time for it today. We're gonna wrap this up. We've been going— but why?

Josh: What's the— what's the— the thing is there's the, the criticism in— or not criticism. There's the feedback in the answers are psych, which is— that's definitely one approach.

Tommy: This is the— you can't bring something up and, and, and have a discussion, a deep discussion about this, and, and may not be able to point out some things.

Josh: And that's what I'm saying.

Tommy: So why can't—

Josh: no, no, it's not about back on you. What I'm saying is it's like, that's what you're doing. There is— but there's a hypocrisy in, mate, now you should do something, and then I ask you, but I have done this, and you've done this so many times.

Tommy: I haven't asked for your help.

Josh: I'm not asking.

Tommy: I haven't asked for it.

Josh: The thing— did I ask you?

Tommy: You brought it up as a discussion.

Josh: And so the thing is, talk through. So one of the ways that we can do this is—

Tommy: but you're being a little bit open. I've got nothing to talk through. I don't, I, I don't have anything in my mind that I want to talk through.

Josh: That— why is that?

Tommy: Because I have like— I haven't even thought about it. I don't, I don't need to talk about it.

Josh: So you're not thinking about anything that you want to become better at?

Tommy: Not at this moment, though, that I have thought through enough that I want to share. Like you with talking about the admin.

Josh: But the thing is that I don't have a— the thing is I don't have a, like, a synthesised thought. What I'm doing is I'm, I'm talking.

Tommy: But you've got it enough. You've got it enough. I've got it.

Josh: I literally had this idea yesterday, and so I'm bringing it up.

Tommy: And so this is the thing, that's the point. There it is.

Josh: And so for you what are the—

Tommy: so you talk about the coffee thing, but we don't need to go down these things. Like, I'm trying to internally work that out, and so that's, that's my journey.

Josh: Yeah, I think that's, that's the where we're different. I think that that's the where I think that we do struggle is there's so many things where, uh, that extra level of thought or thinking about things, or like, what are the two— like, we spoke about this a few weeks ago where it's like I want it to be a good week. I haven't necessarily identified the 2 or 3 things that are very small that I can put in place that will make that a reality. And so that's what I'm trying to do. I know I'm not perfect at it. I know that that's the thing I need to work on, which is I'm not doing that. And so there's, there's an element, I guess, of the habit forming what, what we've discovered is it's like, if you don't— not having a system, not having a process becomes the system or process. It becomes the way in which you do things. So the, the, the non— like, not having a strategy becomes the strategy. And so what we're talking about here is it's like, okay, the 2 or 3 things that we can all be like, that, that I could do. And so for me, it might be waking up at a certain time or whatever it is. Um, and it's not about— I think that, that maybe part of it is not, not talking about it. So it's a different values thing, right? So my values are like, let's have the con— like, from a— or not even values, my operating system is like, let's have the conversation now, let's think about it now, let's talk about it now.

Tommy: That works for you though.

Josh: Yeah, exactly. And so then the balance is when you, when you have someone who doesn't have that operating system, how can the person who is the now person communicate with— because this is not too dissimilar to the conversation we had weeks ago in regards to the week and how we're designing it and all that sort of thing. And the pushback is I'm not ready to talk about it. And so how do people move forward? How do you, you know, because it puts you in a position where it's like you can't have a conversation until every party is ready to have the conversation. And if one party is never ready to have that conversation, how do you all develop?

Tommy: Yeah, I mean, is that an empathetic way of approaching it if it's like I don't know if that's true. I don't know if every party needs to necessarily be ready to have a conversation. Is it? Yeah, I mean, this is— I'm trying to sort of connect it back up to what we're talking about. We've just done an hour on fucking admin. But how ironic.

Josh: Yeah, I mean, it's no—

Tommy: but I like the conversation because it's more about psychology than anything. Habits are psychology. Like, yeah, why are you stick at something? Saying something and saying I'm going to do something, saying I'm going to wake up 6 AM doesn't mean you're going to fucking do it. There's, there's, there's more to it than that. And so that's where I'm saying I don't know the connect, because I've said I'll do a lot, a lot of things in life that I haven't done. I've said I've done a— that I'll do a bunch of stuff and I've stuck at them. I can't tell where it lands right now.

Josh: Can you see any of the differences?

Tommy: Can you see the thing that you Constraints, saying no, like removing things, like these all work for me in some respects. Like, um, I can't— I strug— like Seth Godin says, he struggles quitting midway through doing something. I struggle committing to something where I won't— I'll stop. I don't like it. I don't like having said I will do something and not doing it. Like, there is, there is—

Josh: that's definitely something I've been identifying, or And so there's a part of it which is— so there's accountability and resilience and getting and finishing things, but there's, there's also the, the balance of having a crack and realising that not everything will work and not everything is it. Like, we are constantly evolving. We're constant. We could never have predicted that would be in a pandemic. So anything that I said a year ago in regards to where we would be as a business or what we should be doing Like, we can't consider that as the thing because we've— the inputs have— and anyone that has the sort of inputs that we've had in the last 12 months that are then static or are still in the same sort of mindset, I'd say, aren't looking out and not being open enough to changing their mind. And so, yeah, I think that changing your mind is fine. I think that that's like, that's the, you know, and the thing is that when I bring up these things, like, I know that, I know the frustration, I know, but I think that there's a lot of people who would feel the way they're feeling.

Tommy: Yeah, yeah, the frustration on the thing, is that it? Like, because then you reference a few things from my— I'm not frustrated at all, I haven't thought about it. And so there's a version of where's it land for you and how how much weight are you putting on it? And so the things you've brought, the things you've identified, you must be putting weight on them to identify them like you are. And so that's why we— that's why we end up focusing on them. But I was looking at this conversation more around the psychology of the, like, also the admin. And so, which is what we're talking about.

Josh: Yeah. And so it's trying to identify— I guess it, like, the broader sense is what is the thing that's stopping us from the thing that we want to do? So if you want to do something and you're not doing it or you haven't done it, why not?

Tommy: You haven't wanted it enough, maybe. You haven't wanted it bad enough.

Josh: Yeah, well, I think that it's, I think that's overly simplistic. I think that for a lot of people, it's like, there's people who've spent their whole life to trying to lose weight or to change their thing. And they want it seemingly more than anything in the world. They think about it nonstop, but they can't do it. And so there's a want to do it, and then there is the operating system that this is actually how I'm going to do it. This is the step that I'm going to take. And the hard thing is, this is why things like Christmas time, all this sort of stuff like families, everyone's triggering each other. Like there's a, how we approach individuals and how they're going with things. Like, we, we're constantly projecting. So, you know, if, uh, for you what has worked has been meditation or things like that, and so that's what you'll bring in. Just like me, I would be like, read this book or read that book, or maybe try this thing. And so what can sometimes get lost is We're all individuals, we're all on our own journey. But the tiny habit stuff, the very little small thing and saying, this is what I'm going to do, that's the way. And I just, I don't want to do—

Tommy: Is Jess out of a job? Is she not the ad? It sounds like you've mentored yourself.

Josh: No, well, 'cause I think—

Tommy: No, she did that. It'd be, if you wanted a mentor, you have to listen to and respect. Not saying that you don't with Jess, but I'm saying like for them to be able to give you— that's why I prefaced before I said anything. I was like, I'm not your mentor, and then I say what I'm going to say.

Josh: So the thing is, doing tiny habits isn't me applying this is what I should be doing. It's saying the tiny habit is actually the bit for the mentorship. The tiny habit is, it's like, what's the little thing that that I speak to Jess about, or that we do, or like to make sure that we're keeping this. So the tiny habit isn't the thing. The tiny habit is the capsule which then holds whatever the thing is. So I don't know what the tiny habit is. I don't know what the, you know, what that looks like.

Tommy: What if Jess assigns you your tiny habit?

Josh: Well, that's, I think that's the point. The point is around coming up with that together and saying, okay, This is, this is what it is. But, um, yeah, I think there would be something fun in a self-development week. What would it look like to do a self-development week where we're all working on things? So the thing is that I actually don't do well with competing with others. That's something that— so the thing is that I'm very competitive internally, but then as soon as I feel like it's a dick-swinging contest, as soon as I feel like it's a, uh, some sort of alpha thing or whatever, like, I, I don't— but that's, that's what we spoke about with the pubs and things like that. I just hate playing the systems or games of being set. So maybe with the steps thing, I was like, I'd like the competing thing. I actually competed better on my— like, I compete better on my own than I do with a group of people, maybe.

Tommy: Well, yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, for me, I wasn't trying— you set out to do more than me. I set out to do what I thought I could do, and then that was the challenge. So yeah, you're right, the competition— yeah, where does that fit?

Josh: How—

Tommy: what kind of competition? Because I think some people thrive off fucking, I'm gonna beat the shit out of this other person, whereas you're right, it's like if that internal competition is the driver, like, you know, so that's where the, that's where the difference is, right?

Josh: Where it's like, um, yeah, it's interesting. Before we go, we, uh, we, the, the other week we did an episode on Sleep Republic mattresses.

Tommy: We did. And I mean, we've— I've put in some work on that thing. No, that sounds wrong. I've put in some hours sleeping And mate, comfy as fuck.

Josh: You put together a vlog of doing the episode and, you know, setting up the mattress.

Tommy: And here is that video blog right now that I want to show you.

Josh: The video blog?

Tommy: No, the way you said vlog, it was very like— Vlog?

Josh: Here you go, here it is.

Tommy: Over the past 2 and a half years, we've tried to push the boundaries of what it means to create a podcast, stepping outside of our comfort zone. We've recorded shows from different locations right across the globe: New York City, Los Angeles, Sydney, Australia, a 24-hour live stream, the boot of my car, from Krispy Kreme, Fountaingate. I once even did a show on top of a water tank in Outback Queensland. It has been an uncomfortable journey, but I remember reading a quote that stuck me. Great things never came from comfort. And the other thing we know is quotes can be annoying. All of that work took a lot of time, a lot of effort, a lot of money, and quite frankly, I've aged about 10 years in the last 2 years. So for episode 880, we wanted to take a different approach. We decided to embrace our comfort zone. I've got a delivery. Amazing! Yes, thank you! My new Sleep Republic bed's arrived. That is a king-size mattress. Yo yo yo, have you got your mattress yet? Yeah, I'm just unpacking. Can you hear that? Smells good. Today's episode of the Daily Talk Show, we're podcasting from our beds. This is my setup here. I've got to get it from here through into here. Camera sorted. Thanks, John. Here we are, got my books, the light, camera strapped in.

Josh: Okay, we're about to go live. It's The Daily Talk Show, episode 880.

Tommy: What is happening? What's going on, Gronks? JJ, you're out of breath, mate.

Josh: We're currently on Sleep Republic mattresses. I bet I just had to run over— I'm making it sound like it's really far away. The PC's next to my head.

Tommy: By far all the places that we've done the podcast, this has been the most comfortable.

Josh: Yeah, I think it's going to be hard to actually start doing any work now.

Tommy: We have a few meetings after this and I'm not going anywhere.

Josh: The only change I'd make is at the moment I've got— I'm so fully lying down, so I'd probably just sit up.

Tommy: I will admit I don't have pants on.

Josh: No, I respect that.

Tommy: I've got undies, I just don't have pants, and you're not going to tell me otherwise. If you want a Sleep Republic mattress, sleeprepublic.com.au. Republic.com.au, or you can cheque them out on Instagram, sleep.republic. Just as my motto goes, 80% bedroom is 80% bed. That's what you want. Get a king, even in a one-bedroom. That could be the whole—

Josh: yeah, that's the campaign. It's just that you always need a king. You never know. Prepare now.

Tommy: Hey, you haven't left your bed, Josh. He's currently lying down still.

Josh: I was actually, uh, Slept in this morning, watched some of the presidential election stuff on my iPad in bed. It was beautiful.

Tommy: How close are we?

Josh: Yeah, I mean, uh, uh, Biden—

Tommy: To a decision.

Josh: Yeah, yeah, I think— Well, so the thing is, I think that they'll get close to a decision very soon. The problem is that, um, with Trump saying that the mail-in ballots aren't really valid and things like that, it creates all these issues. So, yeah, what is Biden? They have to get to 270 points or whatever it was, like 270 votes.

Tommy: Yeah, I love— I just, I've loved people coming out like so sure who's winning. It's the best. One guy who's quite well known online, like a business person, not that he follows Trump, but was like, guys, you got to follow the money, got to follow the money. Look at the odds. The odds, you know, Trump's at $1.30. Biden's at bloody 2-something. And then this morning I wake up, the odds have flipped the other way. Biden's at like $1.30. Trump's at $3 now or something.

Josh: Yeah, I don't know how much using Sportsbet is going to be a good indicator on what the results are going to be. Anyway, if you enjoyed the show, please leave us a review on Apple Podcasts. We'll read it out on the show. Would absolutely love that. Also, share on Instagram. That makes a massive difference. Just tag up the Daily Talk Show. There. Otherwise, enjoy your day. Find a little habit. Feel good. Hope you're all doing well.

Tommy: And send an email.

Josh: Send us an email.

Tommy: Do some admin. Love you.

Josh: Hi@thedailytalkshow.com. See ya. Bye.