The Podcast Business

Tommy: The Daily Talk Show.

Josh: It's The Daily Talk Show, episode 861.

Tommy: Happy hump day, Gronks. What's happening? What's going on? Seb, you joined us this morning. Well done.

Mason: Yeah, happy hump day.

Tommy: Yeah, great episode. You should go and listen. It is, it is fun.

Josh: You've already listened to it?

Tommy: Ah, 20 minutes. But mate, I was inspired, like inspired listening to the, the skill that The growth, the loveliness of the team. Love it.

Josh: Can you give us a tease, Mase? What can we expect?

Mason: Jess is loose. She's very funny on the show. Probably in my opinion, one of her best appearances yet on any podcast. Amazing. And then, yeah, we've got great guests on the show and we're just doing ring-arounds to cheque in with them. So go listen to it.

Tommy: I feel Jess Lucas is one of those people that superstar, like out of a podcast context, you're right. It's like, she's great, sometimes outrageous, you know, but you know, within the boundaries, it's that fine line of working out, do I go that far on a podcast that goes out to the public? And so once she does do that, it's, yeah. Yep. She's finding that sweet spot. And so, hopefully this is just, you know, we need a new nickname for Jess if it's wild, wild Jess.

Josh: Well, she's going all in, like it seems like she's going all in, which I appreciate.

Tommy: She's a superstar.

Josh: Superstar. Guys, I feel like it's the holidays.

Tommy: Why?

Josh: Yesterday I was walking in the hall of The Apartment Block and I was like, there was a smell that actually gave me a feeling of happiness, but also just like that I was travelling. Can you guess? Was it Dale? No, it wasn't Dale. Can you guess what the smell was?

Tommy: Well, I had a smell yesterday, Josh, that did the exact same thing for me. So, I'll just say what mine was and hopefully it's the similar one. Sunscreen.

Josh: No, that is a good one. That is a great one. Bri has a certain sunscreen that when she puts on, I'm like, for some reason I feel like I'm in Dubai. What's going on? It's a pretty cheap way of travelling. No, the smell was the smell of weed coming from my neighbour's apartment, and it reminded me of the shitty hotels that Mason and I stayed in LA, where it's just like, You can't get rid of the smell. Even Vegas, I feel like, has that happening a little bit.

Tommy: Yeah. You said mace, you mean naysan. Oh, no, you said naysan.

Mason: Sorry, it sounded like mace.

Tommy: I was like, did you guys go to LA without me? Did you guys go for a little travel trip?

Josh: Yeah, yeah. Yeah, no, naysan. Flew back. Naysan.

Tommy: Oh, naysan. Yeah, yeah, yeah, definitely. I mean, it's California. It's the smell of California is marijuana.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: And so, what did you do? You kept walking and just smiling or what was it?

Josh: Well, no, it was just one of those things where it's like Bree picks up on everything. So, if the neighbour's being loud or whatever it is, she loves a bit of, like the other day, the neighbour had the music loud and she was like, put her ear up to the door of the neighbour to cheque that it was them. And then that neighbour was actually out of their apartment coming back to their apartment door and Bree's ear was up against the door. It's not ideal. But no, so Bree, yeah, like I think that Bree's default is like she loves to create a storey about the different neighbours. And so her perspective on the weed, like I'm like, smell this and you open the, she's like, ah, for fuck's sake. And then she's pointing at the door that it is or whatever. I'm like, oh, okay, that's good. That's what reminded me of holidays. So I'm currently in LA at a, what was it called? A Super 8, I think was the, shit motel that, uh, Naysan and I stayed at where I thought I was gonna die.

Tommy: Well, the, yeah, the sunscreen was yesterday for me putting it on Bodhi, and it just, it was amazing. It was like I was in very close to him at the point, and I, and I was just sniffing it, and I was, and it took me back to being a kid on the beach on holidays. Yeah, and it was, it was so nice. And it was, it was, um, also mixed with we were flying a kite for the first time. Him and I. And for the first time ever— well, with Bodhi. With Bodhi, I've flown a kite before, but you know, you get given presents. We got given a present. I haven't flown a kite for 20 years at least. Um, got given it for his third birthday, and it's one of those presents you get— ah, fuck. Like, I just saw it in its pack.

Josh: Two string or a one string?

Tommy: One string.

Josh: Okay, that's better. Two strings is fucking hard work.

Tommy: Well, yeah, yeah, it's for the adults. Yeah, that's for the adults. Um, so yeah, we got this thing and I'm just like, ah, it has to, you know, there's a lot that has to go right to fly the kite. You want it really windy. If it's like subpar wind, it just falls down. It's very challenging.

Josh: I feel like it was so windy yesterday though, surely like it's almost not kite safe with how windy it was. Dude, it—

Tommy: this thing was going, this thing was up real high. Bodhi was loving it. I was just— it made me so happy. I was like, when would you ever as an adult fly a kite at the park? I'd fucking just go and do it. No, but like, I'm sure there is.

Josh: No, I'm definitely— I'm keen, dude, to do it. I wonder how, like, the string— could you fucking David Blaine it? Like, how high could you get the kite? I wonder.

Tommy: Well, it needs to be, yeah, the appropriate wind, but I didn't even— I went probably 2/3 or even half of what the string was, and it was really 40 metres in the sky. It was real high.

Josh: What were you wondering?

Tommy: It was good. Oh no, it's just annoying because anytime I gave it to Bodhi, he would like run and then throw it. Oh no. And then I'd be chasing after the kite. But it's really fun. I was just thinking about like, if you don't have a kid, what's a way you can become, you know, playful in your adult life. Like, I— it's— this is advice to myself. If I didn't have a kid, I— there's no chance I'd be down the park flying a kite.

Josh: Yeah, yeah.

Tommy: Which I think—

Josh: so what I think, I'm probably more— I have that kid nature. Like, uh, 90 Servs and Grace got me, uh, a glove, like baseball gloves and, um, a ball. And I do intend to make Bree go down to the park and we're gonna throw that fucking ball. And so that seems like a very playful thing. Don't you think?

Tommy: Yeah, it does. It does. What's another— if you were both outside of one that's been given to you.

Josh: Sure.

Tommy: Like if you were half having to be like childlike and actually go out and do it, what would it be?

Josh: Oh, like magic tricks and stuff, definitely.

Tommy: Oh yeah.

Mason: Well, the first I thought about frisbee. It's not really playing with a frisbee. No, I mean if you get a real bait, like one of the ones with holes in it where anyone can throw it. And it just goes miles. Like, that's— I feel like that's childlike.

Tommy: It is. It has that same— I know what you mean. Outdoors, we had the same. We had the frisbee at the park yesterday as well. Um, so if you need to borrow one, Steves, you can borrow mine.

Josh: It's got to be—

Tommy: yeah, see, see, this— Josh, you're on to it, mate. Imagine, like, cut the anxiety, cut the fucking self, um Self-concern, like don't worry what other people say. Josh, today you're heading to Elwood Beach and you're building sandcastles.

Josh: Look, it would be something that'd be easy, but I feel like I'd be the type— The problem is, think about when you're a kid and if someone ruined your sandcastle, what you'd do. Like, could you imagine like, man kills child who tries to destroy his sandcastle? It's like— You've got to enter into it with a new energy. You've got to sort of be like, look, if someone's going to ruin this, yeah, it's all part of the game.

Tommy: Yeah, don't blow up. Okay, I've got a promise. So, I'm just envisioning what it'll come out as if we did a little video series where I follow Josh Janson, who has to be a kid for the day. And so, you looked after Bodhi, you're a dad for the day, and I'd love to see you be a kid for the day. So, we go into the We're going to the sandpit to build castles.

Josh: Yeah, nice. Yeah, what else? What else is there?

Tommy: This—

Josh: I mean, Mace, what did you do? So I didn't do any— I didn't play with toys as a kid. What did you do?

Mason: Well, I mean, the other thing, like a lot of pool stuff, like pool toys, like an adult getting in one of those blow-up donuts. Like, I feel like it's very interesting that, you know, it is very Instagram. Yeah, yeah, no, no, but just like, I remember like at the, at the public swimming pool, I don't think they would do it now, but they were just like massive rubber mats that you would all—

Josh: yeah, really, dude, like caught under them.

Mason: But what about caught under them?

Tommy: Like, I got caught— oh my God, I got caught under one. Harold Holt pool, caught under.

Josh: Oh no.

Tommy: And I was just— I mean, Harold died.

Josh: That's how Harold died, like he was fucking on a mat, drowned.

Tommy: And yeah, I got caught under one. I just remember, you know, I gasped as I came up, just scared, so scared. But that's another one, climbing trees, JJ. Like, there's a little bit of element of risk involved, um, you know, the swings, this playset, like just drawing in the park. Oh, here we go, like drawing on the ground, everything I wanted to do with Bodhi in this lockdown. How about I just start doing that with you?

Josh: Yeah, yeah. I mean, the problem with chalk is just the— I mean, lockdown is a nightmare, isn't it? No, I don't get asthma. But imagine the pandemic. Think about how dry everyone's hands are going to be. So, you're using hand sanitiser, soap, and then you're going outside and playing with chalk. Like, you're going to have some serious eczema going on, wouldn't you?

Tommy: Yeah.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: Or jumping in the puddles. So, kids do that, like jumping in muddy puddles. It's— I mean, you'll smile. That's what I think what will happen is yesterday I was just smiling flying that kite, and Bodhi's running off playing with the frisbee, and I'm just there. Like, I'll post it today on, um, the Daily Talk Show's Instagram, the only Instagram I really have access to. Um, I'll post it on there, but it is, it is a happy sight. But maybe try and be more childlike.

Mason: One of the things— Grace and I got a clay set that we're going to be using this weekend.

Tommy: And so it's just like, I mean, like different, like doing claymation.

Mason: No, it's just like brown, brown clay, you know, just, just normal clay. But it's like, you know, that Play-Doh vibe of just like, you know, you're making something, you know. They come, it comes with all the tools.

Josh: So, you know, is it gonna be like the scene from, what is it called? Is it Ghost? Is that what it is? Where's— well, what is that movie? You know the one I'm talking about?

Tommy: Yeah, Ghost. Yeah, yeah, yeah, behind in here. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Josh: So I'm guessing you don't have— but you don't have a kiln and all the—

Mason: No, we don't have a kiln, but we have one of those spinny things.

Josh: You do?

Mason: Put it on. Yeah, we have one.

Josh: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Mason: I have no idea.

Josh: Where is it?

Mason: It's mum and dad's. It's in the garage. It's mum and dad's. It's probably like 10, 15 years old.

Josh: Really?

Tommy: That's great.

Mason: Yeah. So we can use that, which would be fun.

Tommy: See, this is awesome. So, Josh, you said you didn't play with toys. What were you doing other than sort of building automated, or like Tesla vehicles.

Josh: I mean, I wasn't that like mathematical or smart, like I wasn't doing like electronics or anything either. Like for me it was the, um, I've told this storey before, but microphones. I was obsessed with microphones and Big W had a $20 microphone, but it was really shit, and the, and it was only a 1.2 metre cable mic length, and so I would have to pull at it to like move it far enough away from my speaker so it didn't get feedback. Yeah. And so every few weeks I would fuck it and I would have to tape it, tape the bottom of the microphone, because otherwise it would sort of go in and out. But so I went through a lot of microphones.

Tommy: Well, see, I mean, the difference is if you— so Josh, you see me ever riding a bike or a skateboard and you're like, he's not that bad at that. That is a result of me spending probably a good 8 hours a day at the skate park for like every fucking weekend, or hours at night for years. I didn't get paid for doing the shit that— I didn't get paid for skateboarding. You now just get paid for working on microphones back when you were 4 and 5. It is. So it's paid off for you, mate. It's a good investment. But maybe the adult years for you is your child years, the childhood.

Josh: You're just being consistent, right? Like, I don't know if I'm like— I'm not, uh, what's it called? What do they say Michael Jackson was? Uh, fucking Peter Pan. Were you gonna say child sex offender?

Mason: Nah, nah, I was gonna say child star.

Josh: Probably should have finished that one. No, he was a fucking Peter Pan, right? Which is like, never grow up. I don't think that I'm the Peter Pan guy, um, definitely not. But, uh, anyway, moving on. iOS 14— have you downloaded iOS 14, TJ?

Tommy: No, I'll do it today.

Mason: Oh my gosh.

Tommy: So the only reason I got— you know why? I fucking— I, I have to just put in my card again to Apple so I can back it all up again before I So you have to get the card out of the wallet. Yeah, that's exactly what I have. That's it. I just need the CSV on the back, whatever it is, and then I'm good. And then I'll back up the phone and then do the update. I just don't want to do the update before the backup because you know my luck. Yeah, my whole Apple account will be taken.

Josh: Oh, definitely. Well, I've noticed something with iOS 14, and Mace, you were using the beta, so I'm curious to see whether you got this. So there's this new function where there's a little orange dot or a green dot on the top right of the iPhone. Seb, are you across this?

Mason: Yeah, I'm across this.

Josh: Can you explain what it, what it does?

Mason: Well, so I mean, it's, it's part of their little move towards making, you know, the phones a bit more private and increasing the transparency between things. And so I believe orange means it was it's been recently active, and so an app has recently used your camera or your microphone, I think.

Josh: Orange is microphone, green is camera. Yeah. And so just show up on the little— on the right, you'll see this little dot. You're like, what the fuck is that? It's because you have accessed something that has used your microphone or camera. So when you're on a phone call, you'll see the orange because you're on a call and it's using the microphone. Yeah.

Mason: It's very random though. Like, it just, it pops up in just like the weirdest place. Like, it's—

Josh: Well, so this is what, this is what worries me. So Instagram randomly, uh, not using the camera, not using all that, the green, like switching between accounts, the green dot will appear for a second and go away, right? And so I did some research, and in July there was an article all about this, and Facebook came out and said, oh, this is a bug in our system, we're not actually accessing it. But this is the thing, they are accessing it. They, they actually are accessing it. So the thing is, it's not like it's a, it's a bug where the green dot is a bug. This— what, like, so they're going around in— they're using this language which is saying, oh no, we're not actually accessing it. What they mean is we're not going in and looking at the photos. But they are— like, the app is fucking accessing the camera. Like, it is prompting the iPhone to show the camera because iOS wouldn't show that green dot unless that's happening. Is that right?

Mason: Yeah, that's correct.

Tommy: Yeah. Where is this going to? Like, is that— is it— is there some headquarter where there's a, you know, a guy on a computer that he hasn't moved in 4 years and he just turns and gets fed you know, food, and he's watching all this footage deciding what he might cut together. Is it a Georgie boy who's doing a replay of Instagram users?

Josh: No, we'll just imagine like, um, well, no, so think about it this way. Here's, here's a thought.

Mason: The—

Josh: what could you use the camera for? Like, so the quick split-second camera, you— they could be doing things as simple as how much light is in your room. So if you're going to bed and there's not much light in the room, what does that mean? What, what do we serve when, when the room is dark versus it's a bright day? Like all of these different things. I just think that all data points— yeah, the thing is, this was an issue in July in beta and it's still happening today. I feel like this must be something that is more cemented. And I think that the, the issue is that what they would probably argue is they would say, we're doing this for performance. So imagine if they— for instance, if your finger, if your thumb went to go to swipe right to access the camera, there could be an argument there where it's like, oh, well, we just want to be activating it before you actually see the camera so that it's ready and raring to go.

Mason: Yeah, the other thing that's been happening is also like the— which Apple's giving notifications for, but it's copy— copying your clipboard. And so apps will now notify you when they've copied from your clipboard. And so I think LinkedIn got done for copying a bunch from your clipboard, and that was happening at like intervals.

Josh: So what does that mean, Mace? Can you explain that for someone who does?

Mason: Well, so, so when you, when you, when you when you select something and then you copy it outside of LinkedIn, outside of LinkedIn, so any, any, any, you know, selection on Safari or whatever, or you're copying a message or whatever, they— Apple will prompt you when an app reads what you copied. And so LinkedIn was caught, um, because it will say like LinkedIn copied your clipboard or whatever. It'll, it'll tell you what app did it. And so LinkedIn got caught doing that, and they again said it was a bug. And then also TikTok got done for doing it as well. So it's pretty TikTok.

Josh: It's—

Tommy: what did they get done for, buddy? Kidnapping your 6-year-old. Sorry, we just kidnapped your 6-year-old.

Josh: Well, the thing is, it's the, um, Apple are doing, uh, like a decent job in creating a level of accountability. I think that's what's good about them not being in the— if they were in the social media space, it'd be a disaster. So like, I, I like that there is a company that's keeping these social networks and apps to account.

Tommy: And do you remember, Josh, it was probably around the time you're working for Fifi and Jules, you probably wrote an article for The Dirt. It was about how to turn off your phone's location settings because you could cheque where you'd been. And it was like the first time that had come out, and they're like, if you go into this setting, this setting, this setting, you can see like where you were at 2 PM based on your GPS, and everyone's mind was just fucking blown. They're like, this is disgusting. And then it kind of just— that's disappeared. I mean, that's still happening, right?

Josh: Well, there's— yeah, there's like, if you go into your Google account, you can see some of the privacy stuff there, but Google's well known for, um, doing that. But there's even like, I remember back in the day when Twitter first launched when someone would tweet a photo, their EXIF data of that photo was still there. So you could— I could save the photo, and because the iPhone would attach a GPS location, I could see exactly where that person took that photo. And so they've done that. They've done a bunch of work in like stripping out all of that sort of EXIF metadata so you don't get that information.

Tommy: Yeah, that's, uh, that's how that guy hacked, um, Tony Abbott's frequent flyer account by downloading the image and had all this data attached to it. Somehow he found it out. Yeah, might have been a little while ago, but I mean, it's still happening.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: Yeah. And so where does that— where do you land on that?

Josh: Well, I think just with all of this sort of stuff, I think just, uh, a wariness. So you like— there's the first stage, I think, of like realizing, okay, this is happening. And then being comfortable with, okay, like, what, what does this mean? What does this mean for the way that, that I use my device? Does this mean— like, it's hard. I think it's just a good thing from a transparency perspective, but also the more awareness that we all have around this, until there's chat, until there's actual change in regards to user behaviour all of these, um, social networks are going to continue to do what they're doing. And it makes— yeah, it makes sense. If they can— if they can make more money, um, then they will. Actually, on the— on the more money thing, I got an email from, um, someone who's in the radio industry, and they, um, they emailed about the— the Spotify— the algorithm stuff, the Spotify thing. They said, um, it's interesting because you sound like the old farts complaining about how FM radio isn't the same now, that they don't play album tracks. The commercialism— that's commercialism for you. Podcasting will commercialise as other mediums have, and that can only be a good thing, surely. I think the thing that gets missed is like, we're not against commercialising things. It's about monopolies, it's about duopolies. Like, I think that that's the bit that gets missed is as if we think everything should be some sort of hobby, right? Do you get that sense? Like, I think that—

Tommy: I see what you mean. So the commercialization which led to monopolies, like in the radio industry, I mean, that's a— is that even an industry you could look to as a comparison?

Josh: Well, so what you can look at is you could say So that argument sort of says, okay, well, these things are happening. You don't have— like, you've just got to go, like, go with it, uh, otherwise you're going to be, you know, uh, you're going to be left behind. And so if you think about it, it's like, look at the, the music industry, and you could say, okay, well, if you got on— like, if you don't go on to iTunes, you're like, you're fucked. If you don't go on Spotify, you're fucked. But the there's this other version which is you can also have a part and have ownership on this sort of thing. And so what that means is it's like you need to invest in your own technologies, you need to be able to compete. Like if you're wanting to— at the end of the day, because what we're talking about here is, it's like, is money and, and making money for brands and all that sort of thing. You do need to have a good product for brands. I think for us, what we're trying to do is it's like, okay, what about if we're an independent podcast network that has the best technology when it comes to being able to reach audiences that's outside of Spotify, outside of Apple Podcasts? Because it's less about the, the algorithm in regards to like from an advertising perspective But it's from a content perspective, the thing that I think is it's very hard being a Southern Cross Austereo or an ARN because what do they do? Like, do they— so PodcastOne, who, um, SEA licences here in Australia, they weren't on Spotify and then they reach a point where they're like, oh fuck, we've got to be on Spotify to be relevant. And I completely understand that thinking. And that's what— like, we're on all of the platforms, but at the same time, what are you building? What are you creating that then sits on its own, that's outside of all these other bigger things?

Tommy: And I mean, probably podcasting is an interesting one because radio didn't start as something that was, uh, you know, that anybody could do. It's always been something that you had to have a licence for. So podcasting's been this thing you could— anybody could start. But then the monopolies are starting to appear, which will mean there's a lot more picking going on. Spotify, choose you to be the superstar.

Josh: Um, so then it comes down to it, it actually is more about consumer habits than anything. So it's like, if— like, whether we call it, uh, podcasting or what— like, what we do, it's not too fucking dissimilar what we're doing to talkback radio or whatever it is. But I think that the important part of it is, uh, protecting the actual medium. Like, I think that people will say, like, the medium doesn't matter, like, it's all about content, focus on content. But the consideration is that the platform and the medium will dictate the way that the listener consumes that content. And so when you can change the context in in, in which the audience listens to the content, you are reshaping the content. And so you can't say that I'm just going to put something out into the world and, uh, not focus on, you know, necessarily the medium, focus on doing, you know, good storytelling, all of these types of things, when at the audience end it will be shifting. There is a— there's a big difference between doing a 5-minute piece that then go— like a 5-minute segment that then goes to music— than there is doing a, you know, 35-40 minute uninterrupted piece. So I think that the, the thought around, uh, don't worry about the medium, everyone just worry about the content, is not too dissimilar to what's happening with Facebook, with Instagram. This is what we've been told for a long time. We get told focus on the content, do good content. But then all of a sudden we're like, hang on, I'm putting out all of this good content, I think that this is what people want, but it's not reaching people. Fuck, what do we do? Okay, I'll put out a meme. So a meme, like, it doesn't have any sort of brand value to it, but it's the lowest common denominator stuff. It's the stuff that everyone can relate to, just on even on a very superficial level. And you put that out there and that's like, oh, it got like— we're getting a response now, we're getting all this reaction, we're getting feedback, we're getting comments, we're getting likes. Fuck, do you know what? Like, fuck doing the, the piece that took you 2 hours. Why spend 2 hours doing a piece of content when you can do— when we can just spend 2 minutes photoshopping up some photo someone else took with a meme? And so this is the, this is the consideration where it's like I understand the appeal of focus on content and also the criticism or the feedback. Like, I've heard this across the board when I speak to industry people about this who are especially in those bigger businesses. The, the biggest thing that I always hear is it's like, oh Josh, but like, you know, this, this is like the commercial game, right? This is like the commercial thing that we're playing. I think that what people don't underestimate is or sorry, what people underestimate is that like every single day we're turning knobs, making adjustments to build a sustainable business that has sustainable revenue, that pays creators, that pays a team, that puts creativity at like the, the top of everything we do. And so I just think all of this stuff is really relevant, and if we don't if we just, uh, dismiss it as, oh, this is something that like, yeah, you just gotta— if you're not on Spotify, if you're not on these things, like, you are going to be left behind. There is another version, and for me that version is be there, but also be very wary of what's happening to your content. Be very wary of the knobs that they're turning and the things that they're doing. And so you need to be parallel with what's, what's happening over there and building a sustainable model that then fits something where you have more control. Does that make sense? Yeah.

Tommy: Is, is the thought though from these people that sort of are in big businesses, big media brands that do say similar thing, is it that they think it's inevitable, it's, it's going to happen, so you better do the deal with the devil and play the game? So play the algorithm game.

Josh: And so the reason— yes, and so you can, you can be playing a finite game and an infinite game at the same time. You can have your infinite game and then realise that we need to play these finite games, whether it's charts or social channels, to be able to, to build all of that stuff. I think part of it is like using the Southern Cross Austereo example I've spoken about this before, but in 2013, uh, Southern Cross Austereo came out with a product called Songl, and Songl was meant to be the competitor to Spotify. And this was Southern Cross Austereo, rightly so, saying, hang on, we're, we're being disrupted here, and so we need to own part of this pie. We need to be doing something in this space. But then you, you think of you— if you don't have the right strategy in place, you just can't compete because you end up being this exclusive thing that doesn't really do much. It doesn't have like the audience first. It doesn't take off because it's coming from a place of we just need to do something, we need to react, and not thinking about what does the audience need where is the audience going? I think like iHeart have done a better job in providing, you know, doing something in this space with their apps.

Tommy: Their own app that has access to all different types of stuff. Is it like a SiriusXM model? Like free, but they've got free access for iHeart?

Josh: I think like, so for iHeart there, they've done well in regards to licensing. So they've licenced to, you know, Australian markets, and they've got things going on where they're owning the content and they're creating stuff. And they're also using— if you look at what ARN are doing, they're using their radio platform to encourage people download the app and do all that sort of thing. And then they have a stake in that app and in that revenue. Um, and so I just like, if you look at— so Songle, before Songle started, they were called Anubis.fm, and that was a Sony— that was done by Sony as a way of saying, hang on, um, fuck, Spotify is doing this play. As the music industry, as a label, we need to do something. And so there's this constant reaction that happens where it's like disrupt yourself. But they don't— like, we see it time and time again, they're such a big ship, they're paying so much money of all— to all of these, uh, radio hosts and all. So it's a very hard pill to swallow where they need to completely restructure the way they do business. Yeah, yeah.

Tommy: I mean, you could say that it's, it's, it's always going to be the case that there is someone or some out media brand or platform at the top owning a majority. Like, all the best minds are there to work out how to do that exact thing.

Josh: Well, you don't have to be Spotify. You don't— like, the thing is that it's not be on Spotify, like, be on Spotify or create your own Spotify. We can create— like, we've done the forecasting. We know that we can create a really good sustainable business that pays creators, that does all of those sorts of things based on a model where it's like you're owning the content, you're even owning the advertising channels too. You, you are, uh, and so I think that there's a consideration there where it gets lost around podcasting, where because podcasting started as this small thing it's, it's sort of, it feels similar to say the, um, the blogging industry, right? When, so like when blogs are happening and then you're seeing, you know, your BuzzFeeds come up and all that sort of thing, you see bloggers, you know, just a few individuals or whatever behind their computer getting pissed off that like, ah, this is like not what blogging is, blogging's changed. And I think that to the point of this email that you could lump what I'm saying and simplify it to a level where it's like, this is, this is a hobbyist or someone who is romanticised with the medium. Don't focus on the medium. Like, who gives a fuck? Like, like, and I get it if you're, if you're someone who— it's like people's obsession with radio, like the, the, the love of radio, the love of— like, if if people took that energy of their love of radio and applied it to like love of like building creative things for audiences, it's such a fucking small shift, but it would completely change the way they, they do business.

Tommy: Yeah, yeah, open a lot of, a lot of doors.

Josh: What do you think, Mace?

Mason: What you, you mentioned yesterday around the stuff where Spotify is— if you're an artist, like a music artist, you're being paid to put your stuff on there, but the whole podcasting platform is free content for them. And so they've got their own, you know, streaming ad insertion tech that's available for brands to advertise with Spotify. And so I guess like the importance of being able to I guess, yeah, control your channels and just be cautious of what those bigger platforms are doing. And I think there are like— there's a bunch of tech coming out. So there's, there's like a new sort of directory for podcasts that steps away from what Apple's doing because a lot of the podcast apps are based on Apple's podcast directory. And so I think—

Josh: and so what that means, TJ, is it's like, imagine there's Apple was the— when podcasting started, uh, Adam Curry talks about this, who's sort of, um, seen as the founder of podcasting. You know, he was the— he was on Joe Rogan recently. I think it was episode, uh, 2 in his new studio.

Tommy: But the, uh, they call him the godfather of podcasting. And I said, I thought Charlie— Charlie's the godfather.

Josh: And, um, so the The, uh, the index, that whole like— so an index is just like a list of every single podcast that's out there, right? Uh, they, they did a deal with, uh, Steve Jobs where they're like, Apple can have that, right? And so Apple became the index. And what that means, what does it mean to be an index? It means if you're using an app like Pocket Casts, or if you're using these other aggregate, uh, aggregates or aggregators they would use Apple as a way of being like, what podcasts are out there? And so all of a sudden, this medium that could be open is through one—

Mason: yeah, central location. And it's just like, it's at Apple's whim that, you know, removing stuff and all that. And so, yeah, I mean, I think there's—

Josh: so there's a new index is what you were saying.

Mason: So, so there's a new open index that's, you know, it's meant to be sort of that decentralized, away from one organisation sort of thing. And so, yeah, I mean, it's— I think like what you're saying, Josh, there needs to be a caution around what the bigger companies are doing with your stuff. And on the iHeartMedia and iHeartRadio stuff, like, being able to actually have your own channel or actually realise what channels you're distributing your stuff in and what's happening in those different channels, whether it's like, you know, Spotify putting an ad in the future in, in your actual, you know, content. I think just being cautious and wary of, of what's happening with your content is, yeah, what needs to happen.

Josh: And the, the other thing too to keep in mind is, uh, Facebook did this, YouTube has done this. They will come out at some point, Spotify, and they will say, we're making it easier for podcasters to make money. And what they'll say is, we are now doing ad share across all of the, the podcasts, so you can make real money through putting your podcasts up there. Spotify bought a company called Anchor. Anchor was seen as a, as a host, as a podcast host. So when you put up a podcast, it has to be hosted somewhere. And the thing that Anchor did really well was they made it this app. It's like this social network. It's really easy to do voice calls, like leave voice messages for the podcasters. They provided all these features, and then what they said is, we're going to make it really, really easy to put ads on your content. You don't control what the CPM is, so the cost per thousand downloads that you get in regards to, you know, what you get paid. You don't even— you you don't even really get a say in regards to whether an ad gets played or doesn't get played. And so Spotify have bought Anchor. So if you think about what Anchor represented, then you look at what Spotify has bought, I have no doubt that what's going to happen in the next 2 years is what's happening on YouTube right now. We're on YouTube, but we don't believe in, like I noticed yesterday we got demonetized on one of our videos. And it's like, that what they're saying, what YouTube is saying, is, uh, for this video you can't make money off it. And what we're saying is, it's like, okay, we're going to be on YouTube, we'll play that game, we'll, we'll do that, that's fine. We'll also be on our own platforms. And not only will we be on our own platforms, but we'll control the advertising. And not only will we control the advertising, but we'll give brands the best technology in regards to how they reach their audiences. And not only that, the risk— like YouTube or Spotify would say, okay, there's this thing called brand safety. So if you talk about a certain topic, McDonald's or whatever the company is doesn't want it. Like, so, uh, Qantas don't want to advertise against, uh, an episode about a plane crash. That's fine. The thing is that what we're doing as independents is giving brands, all of that sort of stuff. But rather than getting a CPM, so a cost per thousand of $10, $15 based on what a Spotify or a YouTube will give you, we can get $50. And so this is, this is the whole thing where I think the reason why I bring all of this up is because, not because I'm like gloating that I think that we're doing the right strategy, but I, because there are so many people who are getting started today, and they should just be wary of what the machine is that they're playing into. And it's not be a hobbyist, don't care about money, or join these things blindly. There's this other hybrid, which is understand the context of the industry and then create a great sustainable business that, you know, can't just be, you know, shifted or changed depending on the monopoly or duopoly that we're dealing with.

Tommy: And then there's a bunch of people that the other approach is too— is too hard or not right for them, so they will play the, the one presented by the Spotify.

Josh: Well, they'll come to us. This is the other thing too. So we're doing— like, we, we are providing revenue share for creators, but we give them a bunch of other things too. We give them support, we give them coaching, we give them, uh, you know, a platform, distribution. And so this is the thing, there is, there is the other hybrid. It's like, why would you go to a network? And so if you are thinking about going to an iHeart or an Acast or a PodcastOne or a big media company, whatever it is, you need to ask the same questions, which is like, what are you what are they giving? What's the, what's the transaction that's happening? The transaction that happens with what we do is we take a percentage of revenue, we look after everything, we look, look after sales, which is very common. That's— there's nothing, nothing revolutionary about that. But then we'll have conversation, like we have content meetings every single week. You're working with, like, think about with Tully and how much you're closely— you're working and developing and doing all that sort of thing. And so that's The exciting thing for me is bringing that model with, you know, everything else. But I just wanted to clarify because I think it could be— you could easily think that we're just some hobbyists who are, um, a bit blind to what's happening.

Tommy: Yeah, yeah, there's, there's multiple approaches. I like it. And then this— I mean, that hasn't even brought into account the censorship stuff that we were speaking to yesterday. About Joe Rogan, um, which then— yeah, so you could go down that rabbit hole of reasons why these, these big companies are damaging for creators and, uh, sharing information on either side. So I mean, does it— is it— what else is— is there anything outside of the medium of podcasting that is has been unaffected by these big companies? In—

Josh: I think everything has. So there's a whole— we spoke, uh, I think it was yesterday, yesterday about email. Yeah, uh, there, there are a bunch of, uh, petitions but also working groups that are working against what Google are doing when it comes to how they sort your inbox. And so what Google has done is Google have provided— they have created algorithms for your inbox. And so if you go into your inbox, if you're in Gmail, you'll see, uh, what's the tabs, Mace? There's a marketing tab, there's a— I've got it turned off.

Mason: Yeah, there's no— there's a, there's a bunch of just like ways to separate them out based on the context of the email. Promotions. Promotions.

Tommy: Yeah, social, social media.

Josh: Yeah, and so the— this is the thing, all of a sudden Gmail or Google is controlling what our email does, and it's based on convenience. So what happens, like, oh, this is so convenient because now Google or Gmail is only going to show me the things that I want to see. But then what does that do to small businesses? If you're a small business and you got someone's email address and now all of a sudden that customer isn't seeing your email because you have been put into the marketing category. What does that do? So TJ, this is the thing, there is very few options and opportunities around the, uh, where we haven't, uh, been affected by algorithms. And algorithm— I think the thing is that algorithms can be used in a positive way too. We are using algorithms for the things that we do as well. I'm a robot, I know, but like, we're using them as well. But I think that there needs to be an intentionality to it, and we also need to just make sure that we are diversified in the way that we— so for instance, it's, it's like Facebook, um, Uh, even, um, was it, uh, Myanmar where they talked about that in, um, yes, uh, Social Dilemma? It's like when someone gets a new phone, the first thing it gets installed is Facebook. Yeah, from the telco, like by the person who's setting it up.

Tommy: Yes.

Josh: And so what does that do? All of a sudden they think the fucking internet is Facebook. And this is what's happening. All of a sudden people think that Spotify is podcasting. Spotify's only been doing podcasting for fucking a year and a half or 2 years. It's like Spotify— podcasting has been around since 2005, 2004. So like, if you were— if you were Spotify, you would want people to think that Spotify is doing the exact— if I— Spotify is doing the exact thing that Spotify should be doing for its shareholders. Spotify is doing exactly what Apple was unable to do based on Apple being a big company and not needing to do it. But do you know who else is playing in the podcast game now? Amazon.

Tommy: And then if you look at Amazon, they recently—

Josh: yeah, if you look at what Amazon— like, you, you want to look at the terms and conditions of what Amazon says in regards to, to podcasts. What were they saying, Mace?

Mason: Uh, so you can't, you can't badmouth, um, any Amazon, like, home— like, their home brand Amazon products in your podcast if you want to list it on there. They've just got outrageous things dictating a bunch of ads and content, um, that you put out on their platform. But I mean, the outrage—

Tommy: I would be a dirty, dirty little boy and do an exclusive show for them reviewing any product, every product at Whole Foods. I'll do that. That would be a show.

Josh: Yeah, non-perishable.

Tommy: Pro-Amazon, pro-Amazon show.

Josh: Where's my blind spot with this stuff, do you think, though? Like Like, what's the—

Tommy: I think, I think it's everyone. It's inevitable. It— you're, you're pushing against something that is— you're playing an algorithm at all of these different levels. So which one are you up for?

Josh: So it's not pushing, right? So I think that this is the clear thing. This is the distinction. This is the bit that will be the difference between me being absolutely crazy and stupid and us being successful, is it's Like, it's not a push, it's a— it's, it's recognizing, it's, it's, it's looking all around, making strategic decisions based on all of those types of things. Everyone wants it to be an all or nothing. It's either like you're for Spotify and you're on Spotify. You can be on Spotify and being like, you know what, Spotify for us is the version of a billboard. So fucking 10 years ago you had to pay for like, for eyeballs. And so there is a sense that Spotify at the moment is giving eyeballs that we can— or ears that we can then convert to our own fucking brand. And that's why like having a brand, having something that's connecting with audiences, so something that's actually— that if you— if we were to go, would be missed. That's what you need to do, right? You need brand equity. This is why Joe Rogan gets over $100 million. It's because he's got brand equity. And so it isn't about like— yes, you're right, like, uh, to a lot of extent it isn't about the medium, but it is about brand. And within brand, it's how are you using the medium. We've had like— just because you're good at TikTok, you might be really great at TikTok, you might be— you know where this is going, mate— you might be really good at TikTok, you might be really good at creating fucking 6-second videos on Vine or whatever it is, doesn't mean you can talk for 45 minutes. And so this is the great thing, is like fucking TikTokers coming out with podcasts and they're the most boring thing that you've ever seen. Um, and so anyway, I've had a coffee, can you tell? I finished it before I walked. And coffee, I'm fired up, fired up.

Tommy: That's great.

Josh: Does that explain everything? The reason I bring it up is because also I don't want to be misconstrued or these things to be overly simplified. And I recognise that when I do a 5-minute conversation, it— we don't connect enough of the dots to paint a picture that actually makes any sense for anyone that doesn't have context.

Tommy: I mean, but the, the— there's a high chance of continuing to be misunderstood when you're talking about stuff that you, like, you're believing in it and you are doing all the dot connecting, which is giving you a context. And then there's something else there that you're having to think is the way it is, which people will always think there's a blind spot there if they haven't done that work. And it's not your job to get the other people to do the work.

Josh: And everyone's got blind spots and everyone's got different versions of— someone on our studio tour I was looking at the comments, they said, someone's coming all day, how can they do it? Yeah, no, this is another one. I was just like, I wonder what people are saying. They're like, fucking, someone's like, ah, someone had written back to a criticism of like, you know, these guys only have 10K or whatever, like what's the deal? And someone's like, parents, parents' money or whatever. I just write, it's just like, you can see the blind spots, right? You can see the storey that some like, For us, thinking about a year ago and the struggles we had and what we had to do to try and make it work. And like, so that makes me proud. But the other thing that it— what it does is it's like, I feel bad for the person who that is the storey that they've told. Because if you really believe that our parents are footing the bill for this fucking dumb thing that we're doing, you're poorly mistaken. And so I think that, um, look, we're speaking for ourselves here, not Mason. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Mason's, uh, Mason totally bankrolls, doesn't he? Um, yeah, no, we're, we're— thank you to Mason's parents. Yeah, yeah, for putting a roof over his head, keeping him healthy.

Tommy: Not many sick days so far. It's been great. It has been great.

Josh: Um, so quickly, I mentioned at the front, uh, Jasna on YouTube. She sent us an email.

Mason: Yeah.

Josh: What was the actual contents of the email? Oh, was it about—

Mason: It was a reply to the email that you sent out over the weekend.

Josh: That's right. And she signed off.

Tommy: The morning pages that somehow got sent to everybody.

Josh: Yeah, yeah, yeah. The morning pages. That's what you said in it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. TJ, did you notice what happened? What was at the end of that email?

Tommy: No, I did see the email from her, but I mustn't have read to the— it was not much in there. And what did it say at the bottom? Did I miss the bottom bit?

Josh: Yeah, she said she signed off and she said, uh, you know, thanks or whatever. Yaz.

Tommy: Yaz.

Josh: Yeah. And so we've been saying Jasna. I think it's Yasna.

Mason: I think it's Yasna. I said the exact same thing to Grace.

Tommy: You put a J at the start, you're going to convince people it's Jasna because I have a friend called Jasna. Spelled exactly the same.

Josh: Are you trying to— are you slamming Jasnah saying that she is in fact Jasnah, not a Yasnah?

Tommy: Because why is her name written Jasnah and she signed off Yaz, which is a nickname?

Josh: Yaz is a nickname, and she's just said in the comments, 'Yes, this is my name.' So, so if Yaz is a nickname, if, if Jasnah was her name, wouldn't her nickname be Jazz?

Tommy: Yes, but then it's like Amos. How do you get to Amos from Amy?

Josh: Amy, Amos.

Tommy: Yeah. And then Mossy. I call her Mossy. So, how do you get to Mossy?

Josh: Oh, well, that's just ridiculous. Got nothing to do with it.

Tommy: Yeah, but this is— nicknames are ridiculous. Mr. 97.

Josh: So, Jasnah, is it Jasnah or Jasnah? We just need clarification.

Mason: Let us know.

Josh: Spell Jasnah with a Y just for—

Mason: if it is.

Josh: If it is, just so we can be clear. Anyway, so that was something that had been on my mind as well.

Tommy: Okay, it's sorted. Her name's Jasna.

Josh: Jasna. Pronounced— J is pronounced Y. I'm Serbian.

Mason: She's Serbian.

Josh: Yeah, there we go.

Mason: Jasna.

Josh: So you're okay, TJ?

Tommy: Yeah, I mean, thanks for emailing Jasna. Yeah, I'll call you Jasna because, um, I mean, people, uh, people that do come to this country that make their names easier Yeah, sure. It makes a lot of sense.

Josh: If you're going to come to our country, you go on, what are you saying?

Tommy: No, no, but it is interesting when you choose to go easier name that is the same. I like Yasna. I know it. Yeah, yeah. I know a Yasna as well.

Josh: But do you think that maybe—

Tommy: Yazzie, we used to call her Yazzie. That was great.

Josh: But maybe Yaz has never actually, like what you're implying there is like, just to make life easy, she said that her name's Jasna to us, but we've just always called her— we've never heard her pronounce her name. It's a—

Tommy: yeah, so J is Y in Serbian.

Josh: Yeah, so you—

Tommy: so then that is— yeah, the translation is Jasna, which makes sense to then just replace it because everyone's going to get fucked up because her name's not Jasna, it's Jasna, but it's—

Josh: it is Jasna.

Tommy: It is Jasna, but then it's J. Yeah, the conversion's the fucking bit that's tricking us all. Isn't it? It is. Yeah. So which one? Are you okay with Jasnah with a J?

Josh: I think we just say Jasnah. I think we just use your actual name. Surely. I mean, it's a pretty low-level move to be like, I know your name's this, but I will be calling you this. Yeah, like, that sounds like fucking 1995 at the pub, doesn't it? It's fucking—

Tommy: I'm Jasnah.

Josh: What's your name? Too hard, I'm calling you John.

Tommy: Oh, she's thrown a spanner in the works. She's now changed the S to a Z. I'm Jasnah to you guys.

Josh: Oh, Jasnah, because the way that we— oh no, because we do it as a— yeah, Jasnah. Yes. So anyway, yeah, yeah, there you go. All right, uh, thanks everyone. Uh, yeah, I've got no call to action. No, thanks for coming.

Tommy: Email us with your real name if you— if we've been booking it for the last 6 months.

Josh: Aren't we glad that we had Mace on so I could just talk for 40 minutes.

Tommy: It was great, it was great. I expect a follow-up email from the person that sent it through that one.

Josh: I'll just send this, I'll just say, hey mate, I responded.

Mason: Um, that's— I know, I think it's, it's a good thing to talk about. I mean, people need to, people need to be aware of it if they are creating stuff and, you know, want to be on a platform, or they don't and they don't have to give a fuck and they just continue doing their path, because that is a lot of people's paths, right?

Josh: And this is our path, the other thing, and that's their path. The person who emailed was extremely nice. And it's this classic case of you just take the one bit that you don't agree with or whatever and just double down on it. Turn it into a 40-minute show. I appreciate it. Thank you for the email.

Tommy: It was very nice. We need a show a day, and thank you for delivering.

Josh: Yeah, because the marijuana bit didn't really— there wasn't really much to it. All right, enjoy the rest of your day, guys. Have a good one, and we'll see you tomorrow. Bye.

Tommy: See you, guys.