#860 – Systems & Content Manipulation/
- September 22, 2020
We chat about Bodhi’s obsession with Ooshies, systems and processes, using Slack in a business, Joe Rogan and Spotify’s employees, and what happens when platforms and content companies start to dictate what we see.
On today’s episode of The Daily Talk Show, we discuss:
- Systems and processes
- Communicating on Slack
- Joe Rogan and Spotify
- Platforms and content companies
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The Daily Talk Show is an Australian talk show and daily podcast by Tommy Jackett and Josh Janssen. Tommy and Josh chat about life, creativity, business, and relationships — big questions and banter. Regularly visited by guests and gronks! If you watch the show or listen to the podcast, you’re part of the Gronk Squad.
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It's the daily Talk Show episode. 860 What is happening? gronk
What is going on? Happy Tuesday.
Thank you, tj. You were just saying that you enjoyed some porridge. So yeah, yeah,
the app got up early, you know, took Bodhi the cafe. Oh, man, those. Oh, she's back until
I saw her on an article on news kaamdar you that it was saying? Ooh, she's gone.
Oh, Disney Disney. Ooh, she's or something. It's got you at a head for a headline level up. Speaking of I just got a kiss from Bodie. Let's show him your Oh, she's come on. He's got a handful. Grand full of all she's there Disney characters. So no. He's may reading that going a little bit beyond the headline. Only because I've got a son that's interested in them. Otherwise they wouldn't care. It's something about like, claiming them online that they've removed easily other states. It seems like
story and stuff like that. It looks like there's some cool characters,
Avengers you like, Captain America, there's a guy from up. What else is there? There's Star Wars.
What do you have to do to get them? So for people who aren't familiar with issues? How do you describe them? Or shoes or however you pronounce them?
They're little bits of blob. And it's just going mad. Hang on a second.
Did you go
wasn't far off.
I literally thought I was hearing myself as I was saying. No. No, I never. I said I've muted myself. I mean, seriously, you
know until we shop around that Dude,
seriously, I'm doing the show right now. Yeah. Oh, she's a little blob like things. They look like little. It's almost like if a kid hasn't attempted a plastic mould toy. And you poured in some, like little silicon into something and then you pop out this toy. Yeah. Cool, though.
get access to them. So you have to spend like 30 bucks or something?
Or what's the deal? Exactly. It's just spend money to get these little things. They try to toys. I think it's it could be $30 over $30 and you get one. Or they might have limited to this is where I'm just so okay. Now that couldn't be right. I spent 60 bucks the other night. Sorry, sorry. $50. Yeah, I reckon it's 30 because I spent 50. And I got one. I reckon if I spent another 10. I would have got two. And so here's the thing that when you're young birdie, he's a he's a chip off the old block. He's spoken to the bloke at the cafe shop and say, Can you get me some of these? Did that yesterday, so that yesterday? The guy's like, Oh, yeah, okay. He loves buddy, and then rock up this morning. And he said, Bodhi. I've got a present. And he had three, two out of pocket and one in packet. And you should have seen this kid. He lost it. So excited. And so, so the cut of the coffee shop guy is his dealer. He's getting emotions, and he got them off a person that came to his coffee shop. I really said, I don't I don't collect these does anyone in your family? And he said, Oh, no, he does.
It. That would be good, too. I mean, you could start a bit of a scheme for anyone that doesn't have kids. Box 400 Abbott sample? Seven.
Yeah. Yes. Yeah, if you've got some p o box 400.
Abbotsford? Victoria 3067.
Yeah. And they go to Barney, they get put in Bobby's room.
I'll check to make sure that they're done on Limited Edition.
And then what about just over sending stuff in the mail? Did you see that? Trump had a parcel or a letter sent to him that had rice in it.
What's rice and
rice in is this toxic? lethal agent really, but it actually comes from beans. It comes from canola beans does make you fat
isn't like the almonds.
ryson is a lectin and highly potent toxin produced in the seeds of sorry, castor oil plant rice in common communists. And most people would know Reisen from Breaking Bad Breaking Bad ice. No, no, no but what someone poisoned somebody with rice and in that show and so I had no idea but when I heard that, I was like wow. And so the thing is, it can form naturally. But for it to be in a you know the powder form in an envelope. It means that Because I just from what I read, it had to have been made with the intention of doing that. And so, I mean, this is where if I can't find the person that sent that, I mean, snail mail, porno in mind and I got, I got flagged by the FBI. Which,
how much mail was Trump actually opening? Oh, not much,
if any, you know, the coin still has to sign stuff. She like she spends signing stuff the Queen Yeah, has a period of time where she goes through and sign things. Like she she has to sign off on stuff. It's bizarre. I mean, America. Yeah, you're gonna think that they're still doing checks in the mail. Like, you actually getting your paycheck in the mail? It's, yeah, I mean, this stuff is changing very quickly. I was chatting to a lady at the park yesterday. And she was a nurse, she wasn't nurse still isn't nurse, but hasn't worked since the start of the pandemic. And, and is going to go back but she where she worked, she said the ward has been turned into a coven ward. And she was saying that since they've overhauled all their computer systems. Like it's forced people to go hard,
as in the curity perspective,
oh, no, no, just from processes and, and all the systems that they may use, which I mean, there's a lot of this going to happen. Standing to realise it's a bit outdated. I guess it's like the working from home thing for the businesses that weren't equipped.
You're in pretty quick. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I'm loving all of the, we've got project management tools that like it. We've got so many fucking tools going at the moment. Yeah, I'm loving. How
do you? How do you make a tool stick? So it could be? I don't know, layman's. Like, I think we're probably trying to use some of the more expensive tools out there. But like, even what are the basic ones that most people would use? Say, like notes? Or say like any kind of note taking system? How do you make these things stick? Do you think?
No, I think like, there's a difference between the personal thing of like me doing something in draft, and then getting everyone on the team to use something. So for instance, like a Trello. Or if someone's using Trello. Like as a business, I think like it comes down to the actual use of it, like, everything needs to go into it. And I think that it needs everyone needs to accomplish just like part of the team. Every single person needs to be doing all of their work like interfacing
through that. I mean, I've had some conversations with people that aren't probably in our industry and mentioned a few names. And it's just not like a lot of that chat goes over people's heads if they're not having to use it. Right. Like, yeah, when most Yeah, I guess, what was some, say for big business like invito? When you work there, what were you? What was crazy,
crazy amount like it was? slack? Yeah, it's just like a messaging thing. But there wasn't any, any sort of really crazy. project management style stuff. Yeah. A bit of Trello. In regards to like having boards around content. Yeah, that's, that's probably the The only thing but email like what you have never as a business. I've spoken about email a lot. We've never gotten to a point of like, when I send internal emails.
Yeah, we're slacking. I mean, but like none at all.
Like, think about when you were, you know, a radio station, you
would get it with any, you know, when an internal email comes when someone's say, Can you just put that in a mail? Because you just want to pipe a trial of it?
Yeah. I mean, think about it. Like when you work for bigger businesses. You have so many, like, massive blow ups. At like my last job where people would like to big reply alls I remember one reply or where someone said, Hey, I'm putting together this PowerPoint. I just want photos of everyone's pets from the office. Yeah. And everyone was replying all the photos of their dogs and cats. And then someone's just like, this has got to stop.
Yes. Well, I mean, the other side of that is that where and where conversation in person could have gone down? Much better than a passive email. So when I worked at kiss, do you remember the story where I wrote an article about a video that I'd created and I took the job at case and one of the providers was, I consider to be a contributing content creator. They couldn't hire me as someone who just created content.
You weren't. You're hired as a digital content producer, but they're like, Hey, this is sort of moving into this new direction where it's a bit of hybrid. Like what Kristin How did really well, which is Yeah, putting yourself out there in the content, not just talent,
which I think they should I mean, It's probably not worth going down. But I always thought that they should be sort of looking for hiring content creators as brands. So they build up a sort of stable, but it's not their model. They're in the radio business, I guess. And Internet's irrelevant, really, for them. No. But anyway, I, so I put this video, I put this article out on the website. And it was a bound. I, it was about Amy and I going through my old stripping box of, you know, toys, and it sounds like my, you know, my outfits, some photos from when I was stripping. Anyway, I did this article. And this guy who was I don't know what he was head of something. wrote me this passive email faco wish I kept all my emails like you do. And it was just slamming me on a group email.
And like, what?
Just like, This is unacceptable to be posting a personal article on our website. Like, just, I get how he saw it like that, especially when it's this type of content, right. And so, I mean, this he, he was 20 metres away from me. That was the problem where he could have come up and asked me a few more questions, because the best thing is, there's nothing like a victory over email when you're in a chain. I went around and spoke to him and I was hot. I didn't I was always hot. But you know, when you go like, yeah, just curious. But you're fucking
Yeah, your heart rates going?
Yeah, I've been just wandering.
You gasping I wish I had the footage. And then. And anyway, I got back in I What did he say?
So you said,
he's very light. You know, at that point. You've gone from the sort of hero an email to like, Yeah, no, look. No, it's um, yeah, look, I don't think it's right. Like just sort of match probably matching how I was just a bit weird. And then the best thing was the big big boss. dB from the, you know, I read an email back and said, mate, it's all good. Leave it up. Good work Tommy or something like that. And I was just like, fucking moonwalking around the room.
And it got lift up. Yeah, I mean, that. Yeah. This the the slack. The slack attacks we used to have at my last job where, yeah, reply at channels would be frowned upon. Yeah, a lot of blow ups there. But the thing with the thing with slack is if you're a remote team, I don't know if this is across the board with other businesses. But they would like there was a time at Invesco where they were discouraging, in person conversations, like water cooler combos. And they were saying, have them This was just this wasn't like, top down type of thing. I think this was just someone sort of trying to spearhead it within the business. It's like any combo should be happening on slack. And their reasoning was, if you have a remote team, if you have 50% of your team that aren't in the office, if you're having a conversation, like when you have a conversation in the office, people over hear it and you can sort of interject or you can add your two cents, your remote, you don't get to do that. And so their point was the watercooler office banter, that sort of thing should happen on Slack, so that it feels sort of more equal. What What is water cooler, banter on slack look like? What would you what would it conversate? If we're just to build our scenario now? Well, there's a lot of like, so there's two things. There's the business side of stuff. So like the obvious the obvious thing, which is to say, hey, I've got this, I've been thinking about this idea. Yeah, but then there's the other one where it's like, there was so many when when businesses first get slack. For people who don't know, slack is like an instant messaging tool, where you have all of your employees on it, you can write and things like that. Facebook have a product, Microsoft has a product that's similar, but you can create a channel and a channel is like a focus. So it's like a group. This is what we're going to talk about in this specific Slack channel. And when Envato specifically first got Slack, there was a channel for everything. Like if you liked Pokemon, there was a channel there was a channel for and so it just becomes this outrageous cesspool of channels that no assessable is right, not the right word, a lot of channels that no one's actually engaging in, but yet to your point, I think the watercooler stuff is it's like you know, like they'll do spot there was one channel which was around music curation, and so you'd set up a shared Spotify playlist and every way for someone to to curate five songs that they would add, and I can say why they added them.
I wonder if there's any scenarios, maybe you've experienced this where you kind of have banter with somebody through online platform within your business, but then you meet them. And so in person, there's all the insecurities that one might have, or like, just a bit shy, but online, you might be, you know, it's like the cat fish. It's like,
do you think that's gonna happen? Hate to though, think about all the like, the connections? Yeah, we all have at the moment, and it's all it's all based on? It's gonna feel very weird by being in the same room.
I know. But then that's, yeah, there has to be a blend. Yeah, that he's locked. But there has to be a blend of being able to experience but it's like, I even remember going back into the studio. Where last time where it's like, it felt odd to look at you as a human from the other side of the room. Like, that's just and that's not we've done so many shows so close together. But it just felt weird, right? It's like, there's a difference between having someone on the screen and the eye contact that you may or may not have. Yeah, like, I can look at your eyes now. But I don't feel like I do. When I'm looking at you in real life in the eyes. You know, like,
I just had to dimensional square right now.
Yeah. And sometimes I even do shit like, pull up a thing in front of your face. Don't like, like, if I'm looking like sometimes I leave
it to right. Like in a meeting,
just put a piece of paper in front of your face. just reading
something just holding it up just just having a bit of a just Yeah, yeah, looking at the numbers. I remember a you a guy that has an issue with laptops in meetings. No,
I, I probably haven't had enough meetings to be annoyed about it. But I definitely have felt the effect of what it what it's like when it when you've got a room. say there's five people in the meeting. And everyone's engaged in their computer. I was listening to this guy talk about even just having, say you and I in the studio. And if the guest safe, we have a guest who's opposite to us. And then there's a screen behind us. And so the guest watches that screen and then we're watching a screen. Mason's bringing up something, you know, you shooting yourself, and then we're watching that. But when we're so we're crossing our gaze, there's a difference in having one screen the that both sides look to, because there's something in say you're looking at the screen, the same person, and you look back at them to say, Ah, look at that. And so there's a connection being built. That you know, is this feel,
would you hear this? It was just drove right into like, he has the one screen is
that was it. That was the that was the example that looking that he's new studio has to I know, he said his new studio has one screen, so they can both be looking and then you like, you know, you look back at how good is that like nudging your body? And that those little micro moments are actually building rapport. And, you know, setting a nice confound through a conversation in a room. And so that's where you're kind of like this is your limited because you've got so much stimulus. And there's as much as we're trying to communicate, there is still things, those elements that aren't a part of it.
You're a big Joe Rogan fan. Have you been keeping up with all of the stuff that's happening with Spotify?
Yeah, yeah. I mean, it's, I think it's all like if you have you watched any other takes on it.
Now, so I read, there wasn't there was an article that said, I just copied and pasted some of these, a group of Spotify staffers and now reportedly pushing to introduce direct editing oversight over the Joe Rogan experience before the episode goes live. That includes content, flags, trigger warnings, references to fact checked information, or simply refusing to publish an episode at all. So the same vice first reported that Spotify employees had conducted more than 10 meetings to discuss possible changes. Those discussions included proposals for the outright removal of additional podcast episodes. I mean, yeah, what what's your take? First of all, they won't they won't do it. He's making too much money, like he's signed the deal. And so I've heard what about if you've got a bunch of input like so. employees within a business can be very powerful. So you know, if you've got a noisy group that are all talking about it and if Spotify is saying, you know, we're a woke business where I'm doing all of these things, if they are what they say that is Spotify say they are Don't you think that potentially, they could lean to some sort of version of what what's being described?
I can imagine that the pressures of a bunch of stuff coming in saying, This is how we feel. And yeah, you can imagine how it is, but I just don't feel like the investment that I've made with someone like Joe Rogan, that they're gonna, you know,
like, what do you think it could look like? So for instance, there, Joe, went on Instagram and did an apology about the Portland fire stuff that he mentioned, you say this now, what
do you say?
So he's saying that, if like, paraphrasing, not knowing too much about it, but he was he said that there was some sort of group like that we're setting fires in Portland or whatever. I think they're like, left leaning or whatever. But it turns out to be it was fake news. And he mentioned it on his podcast, and he's actually on Instagram, he does a video apology on Instagram about it and says, you know, won't happen again. I just thought it was interesting. Seeing someone like Joe Rogan do an apology like that. I think he's very good. Like, he did a very good apology.
Yeah. He's quite genuine, I think. I mean, these people, free speech is great. But also, if it's not true, you have to, you know, be able to say it's not. And so, yeah, I can imagine it moving towards those trigger warnings and things like that.
What about the grey area and all these things? So so much of like, so from a business perspective? That like, there's, like, there's an area, which is like a belief systems? And so how do you think a company determines what their belief system is?
Well, usually it's top down, but but becoming very societal driven. It's like, cultures, if you have progressive people within your business, it's going to be progressive, because you people make up the company. It's not just the name. And so
and so would you say, like, I guess there's two different angles in one way. Joe Rogan provides the light and shade. And he's the paradox or the, the contrast or the like, the, the difference of Joe in the sense of he's him sort of flipping bits or oscillating between right leaning ideas, and left leaning. I'd like all of these types of things I feel like, can be a bit confusing when, you know, when you're trying to put a lens on it, because you don't know where he fits. He's not like an Alex Jones. Who's right leaning. It's not like it's he plays in this area, where I think he he's actually going to create more friction within within Spotify.
Well, yeah, definitely. 100% I agree. And then the the problem of his approach, which I think it's a great approach, but the problem with it is people over the side of left or right, won't listen to the full conversation, because they're seeing the problem at hand or the the,
we can see the damage they can do, right. So like one piece of misinformation. You could, especially if you're at the level of Joe Rogan, Joe Rogan could change an election, like that, but like, that's like, I really believe that to be charities.
I mean, it's crazy. Imagine, without getting into the political side, but like how he'd be feeling about this pressure now working, like you take a Spotify deal, and you think that it's just like it's a licencing deal. But did you think about their employees coming out and saying they don't like the content that's on the show, and the network's just signed a $300 million deals? What a fucking what a clusterfuck?
Yeah. I mean, what a cluster, the Spotify CEO Daniel algos, this ring appears to be pushing back. from a business standpoint, the reason is fairly obvious. Rogan's audience likes his direct, unedited style and could quickly abandon the comedian podcast if he's edited. I mean, that's the thing is, that's fine. Just because you're an employee of Spotify doesn't mean that it's for you. Isn't that I guess they are about like, maybe a better strategy is bringing more people on the platform that reflect your perspective or views, rather than trying to edit someone else's?
Yeah, yeah, definitely. Like 150 employees came forward at the the book publisher of Harry Potter, what's her name? JK Rowling, JK Rowling, she's releasing a new book. And 150 people at the publishing house that's doing this book came forward and said that we don't believe you know, like, we don't want this book published. We feel you know, unheard, and it's No, this me whatever she was in the media about? Not
big stuff or whatever. Yeah,
well, yeah, it was like, she was saying something around trans rights and bleeding into women's rights and, and that sort of blew up, right. And then the CEO of that business, decided to publish it. So when against the, the the noise that was coming from those 150 employees, so it's I mean, this is where people can be noisy, I don't think there's anything wrong with the noise happening. And then the decision being made from top down. And but it's like still creating a conversation around that, if that's what it's gonna do.
Well, it's like systems in general, like, I think about the people having issues with Amazon and how they trade the labour force. But if you look at it, broadly speaking, Amazon pays workers within a warehouse context, more than, you know, their counterparts. Like, if you look at, you know, other retail giants in the US, they're, they're just as guilty, if not more guilty, in regards to underpaying staff. And so it is this, it is it is a weird area, I wonder where it will land with, with, especially around content, like how do you create? Like, can you have a diverse range of voices on a single network, or, or even a platform? So for instance, Spotify, apple, all of these companies going in and creating content. What's that going to do to culture like, Tim Cook here, famously was like, quoted around the Apple TV, plus content. And they, they pushed back on all these sex scenes, and really sort of filtered the types of content that they're putting up. And so I do wonder, like, I see the power in Independence, I see the power in having definitely different options. And I do worry about like, I think
Joe Rogan was the biggest independent podcaster in the world ever. And then he chooses, you could say, still independent, but now he's not because he's getting it from
Yeah. But I mean, this is a thing, like when does something become no longer independent? I think that one thing that most people aren't considering enough, is the power that companies like Spotify, will have over podcasting, if we just hand it to the most, you know, like, on a platter. And so at the moment, we're like, Spotify is great, great for podcasting, listen, but like, podcasts started as a democratised tool to communicate. And so it from a technical perspective, it's an RSS feed that you subscribe to when it's got audio connected to it. And it's like, the beauty is if you look at something like the social dilemma, which has algorithm, you know, that Facebook, Instagram, all these different social networks have algorithms, and it's changing the way that we are consuming content. Spotify is going going to do this exact same thing. Yeah. And so I think that we need to be very careful in regards to how these bigger players play in the podcasting space. Because even if it's not, so using the Joe Rogan example, even if they don't eat it, if they then decide that the Joe Joe Rogan's content isn't safe, Mm hmm. And then says, okay, so it's not as safe. So we're not going to going to push it through to our algorithms. It's the same fucking problem. And so I think that there's, there would definitely be a push for an independent solution to podcasting, where it's just like, right now, if you're listening to the to the podcast, on a podcast feed, like you see everything right, you get a, you get a feed that isn't being impacted by algorithms. It's exactly as it happens. And that's what I think needs to stay with podcasting. Yeah.
Yeah, be great. Anyway, we've just signed a $300 million deal with Spotify. So we'll be we'll be
Spotify, we think it was only 100 melfa. Oh, yeah. 100
million, is that he could he is sort of set to make at the end of it. I mean, he might pull out mention if he just did a year deal and then just pulled it off.
Yeah. I think lying to is like, do we people buy into the rarer of all of that sort of stuff. And you see it so much where it's like, playing into what's happening. I think it's good for elevating the industry. So there'll be more money around across the board. But I think that if we, it's like Uber, so when Uber first came, you know, to Australia or, you know, start It was this exciting thing that was finally disrupting taxis and the bullshit system and all that sort of thing. And so if you look at it for Spotify perspective, it's like, finally, somewhere where you can get all the things and it's easy. And it's like, and they're looking after creators, and they're, you know, they're, they're putting money into this stuff, and they're promoting it. But then think about what happened with Uber, is all of a sudden, they stopped paying their drivers a little bit less, a little bit less, and all of a sudden, all these other things start changing. And the thing that people forget is, it's like with Uber specifically, it's like, as you can't be surprised for one that this is happening because they're a business, then too, I wouldn't be worrying about the fact of like how much they're paying their drivers. Look at their 10 year 20 year plan, like drivers aren't even in the equation. Yeah. And so I think that if you look at that example, think about how we perceived Uber at the start, or Facebook or all of these things. Yeah, exact same thing is going to happen with Spotify.
you hand over your catalogue to Spotify, and in five years, you're no longer hosting it, because I've worked out how to take all your episodes and create compelling content.
Yeah, well, what about it? So if you're, if you're, if you're a music artist, and you're on Spotify, you get paid, right? We don't say a cent from Spotify, when it comes to podcasts. Okay, podcast is for a very, very cheap, first Spotify. It's not costing anything to have them there. And so, just as creators, I don't know what the solution is. I think it's like building something. independently. We're doing a bunch of exciting stuff from a tech end, which we'll talk start talking about in October, but it's a it's something to be wary of. But if you do have Spotify, or you know, Apple podcasts, too much Talley has just dropped a new episode every Tuesday. This one's great. Jess, and Talley sort of get into the weeds together and they're chatting about all different stuff. Jessie's shining, she's killing it. He's killing it. Go have a listen too much. All right. It's a daily talk show. cinemark guys have a good one. Love you.