Take This Offline

Tommy: The Daily Talk Show.

Josh: It's The Daily Talk Show, episode 859.

Tommy: What is happening, Gronks? What's going on? Happy Monday to you all.

Josh: Great to be here. Is it, Josh?

Tommy: Is it, mate?

Josh: Very much so, actually. I feel like— feeling very good today.

Tommy: Now that's great. No, to be honest, I am too. It's, um, I I woke up to the birds chirping. Got 2 new friends, actually. Yeah.

Josh: Can I guess? Are they birds? I was going to say. Birds, yeah. The veggie on toast when I was a kid that my mum would feed the magpies is a fond memory. Have you been feeding the magpies?

Tommy: Yeah. I mean, they're eating something a bit more decadent than Vegemite on toast. Pulled pork.

Josh: Oh, wow. They've really got around the pulled pork. They're going to shit themselves. They're not careful.

Tommy: Beef sliders. No, no, no, no, no, no. They like meat. And I don't know, I've just got this— I've got this desire to— because they— it is their property. We live in their property, these two massive magpies. And there's something like— most magpies get flack because they swoop and they're aggressive.

Josh: Yeah, sure.

Tommy: But when, when you live on their property, they are Magnificent creatures. Fat, big, and I like that they're really brave. Like they're staunch. They'll stand their ground until the last minute. And but, so they live in the backyard and I've been, yeah, feeding them. I want to train them. I want to get them up to a point where they can feed out of my hand. That's my goal. That'd be great.

Josh: So, what do you have to do to train? A magpie?

Tommy: Well, word on the street is that they become familiar. They familiarise themselves with voices. So, you got to talk to them. So, I'm out there every morning. "Hi, Maggie." Call them Maggie, obviously.

Josh: The neighbours must think you're absolutely tweaked.

Tommy: Well, mate, the neighbours, they're knocking on death's door. It's, you know, they're older characters. They're sleeping. And so, I think it's quite nice.

Josh: I actually find that, to be honest, my nana and pa before they died, they would stay up very late. Like, I think that as you get older, you actually need less sleep. So, I don't know.

Tommy: Really?

Josh: Just sort of, yeah, yeah. Nana would stay up until like 1:00 AM and then she'd be back up at 7:00.

Tommy: I don't know if it's you need less sleep or you just give less fucks about optimising every essence of your life. You know, like, I need my 9 hours because I need to get up and do my morning pages. It's like, nah, they're just like, who gives a shit? Let's watch fucking Wheel of Fortune until 1 AM. Well, I feel like they're eating Buttermenthols like they're fucking popcorn.

Josh: I remember like Australian Open and stuff used to be big, like with my nana. I feel like it was one of those things where it's like any sort of sport that's late. Also, my uncle used to be a caddy. And so he would, like, a golf caddy for different golfers. Craig Parry was one of them. It was a bunch that he caddied for. But I remember when the PGA was on at weird times, I feel like Nana and Pa were the type to, you know, tune in all hours.

Tommy: Look, I don't know a person over 70 that's on a diet other than to prevent them dying from, say, like, excessive sugar.

Josh: But you're not seeing You know, elderly. Not worrying about your weight. They don't give a shit. Other than it's more medical thing, right?

Tommy: It's more just like, oh my, all right, I wouldn't mind to see my kids grow up a bit more at that point. It's not like our sort of neuroses that we have. The week is off to a good start considering. I reckon over the weekend I felt, I mean, I wasn't feeling great and I feel like Uh, it's— this is a new leaf, this is a new start for me.

Josh: Is this got something to do with— so, uh, we have a big media company, iMessage, group message. Yeah. And, um, you had just— so you had called me and you had said, um, just putting through this Facebook grant. So this is the first— so this is, this is my day. This is on Saturday. Yeah, was actually walking for the first time in a while. A beautiful, beautiful day, uh, walking. Uh, you call, say, hey mate, you at your computer? I'm like, no, no, I'm out walking actually. This is crazy, but I'm out. Like, okay, because I'm having issues with this, um, this Facebook grant, business grant thing. Yeah, um, you know, submitting it, it's giving me errors. And I'm like, has this got anything to do with your fucking cursed Facebook account? And you were— you reacted in it like you were, uh, audibly annoyed by that. Like, it's got nothing fucking to do— it's got nothing to do with Facebook. Like, this is a separate— this is a separate thing. It's not Facebook. It's like, yeah. And so I'm like, well, I can't cheque it. Maybe cheque on Safari or something like that. Anyway, that happened. Got off the phone to you, and then 10 minutes later, GB sends a message in our group iMessage, which is an image of the Daily Talk Show's Instagram profile. Yeah. And we have our, you know, hosts @JoshJanson and @TommyJackett. Yeah. And what you will notice is that Tommy Jackett isn't linked. And then I did a search, and sure enough, your account is no longer. Once again, it's gone.

Tommy: My Facebook and Instagram account have been removed. I mean, at this point, you'd be suspicious that I'm some right-leaning, you know, Pedophile character, neo-Nazi pedophile. But look, I'm not. I'm a family man, and, and yeah, I'm the furthest from it. So I woke up, I was a bit pissed off about that anyway because I was like, oh fuck, I did— I was— it happened not— it happened earlier that day, and I didn't want anyone to tell you because I wanted to reveal it on the show to you. And because, because the, the two—

Josh: how much of it was the reveal on the show? Versus also just the dealing? Because when I, when I started talking to you about it, you were like a little bit disappointed of like, yeah, like, I, I know you're gonna think that I like put my details into some sort of thing, or like— so how much of it was saving it for the show but also saving your sanity by not getting me to trigger you by asking all the questions like, what email did you open?

Tommy: A bit of column A, bit of column B. Um, no, I wanted to see if you would notice it because you do pick up on this shit. So I'm surprised George, uh, picked up on this before you.

Josh: And so how long into it? So when did you find— like, how did it happen?

Tommy: Yeah, okay, blow for blow, blow by blow. Uh, Friday night, Amy and I lying in bed watching a documentary called The Social Dilemma. Let me just read you the little bio of The Social Dilemma. This documentary-drama hybrid explores the dangerous human impact of social networking, with tech experts sounding the alarm on their own creation. So this documentary slams the likes of Facebook, Instagram, even Gmail. You've got the creator of the original Gmail, which is like talking to the addiction of how they've designed him being addicted to email.

Josh: Was a bit pathetic though, like when you're saying, oh, you know, my, you know, my drug of choice is email. Yeah. Go to heroin, like Gmail, like it's a bit pathetic, don't you think?

Tommy: Yeah, yeah, I know, I know. Anyway, so I'm watching that and at that point I'm just fucking— yeah, I'm blown away. And I'm— and you're already starting to think, fucking, maybe you should get off. I mean, this is what these documentaries do, mate. They make you question, is it worth me staying on social media?

Josh: So I saw the documentary What do you think it explores? Like, what was the big takeaways for you?

Tommy: I mean, it's, for one, it's nothing you haven't heard before. It's addictive, it's dangerous, it's manipulative, it's big gone, it's too big to turn back. It's all these things. It's changing. It has changed the society. It has changed, it is changing. The world in the best way.

Josh: I'm gonna use that snippet for the next The Daily Talk— What is The Daily Talk Show? So, no, I agree.

Tommy: Anyway, so, I mean, one thing, one takeaway from it is like, there's only two things that use the term— I mean, there's a few things, but the two things that use the term "users," drugs and social media networks, users. So, it's sort of, I just, I don't know. It's a great documentary, worth watching. Um, so I went to bed and woke up and Amy was up. Amy likes to do— she calls it a soft wake-up where she just gets on her phone and starts scrolling, eases into the day. And she said, oh, I've got to change my password on Facebook, someone's tried to get in. I was like, oh really, that's annoying.. And so, she does the sort of like tells you what's your activity, was this you, go through, change password. Great, she's in. I was like, oh, okay. I grabbed my phone, I go to open Instagram. Instagram has been logged out from @tommyjackatt. Like, this is unusual. And then, it's like, you need to change your password. I was like, sure. I jumped onto my laptop.

Josh: What were you thinking at this point?

Tommy: No, nothing. I'm just like, ah, well, that's weird that happened to Amy. Now I'm changing my password. And then I jump onto my laptop, open it up, open up Facebook in the browser, and go through the process. Okay, no worries. I started to get a bit nervous at that point.

Josh: Sure.

Tommy: I look at it, asked me to do two-factor. I've got that set up. This is why you do this shit, to prevent people hacking your account. I did two-factor, it texted me a code, I put the code in, I changed the password. Long password, long, very hard.

Josh: And the longest— you sound like Trump.

Tommy: Yeah, real long, real long. I press change update, it then prompts and says you've been locked out.

Josh: And was this the same message that you had previously?

Tommy: Yeah, yeah. So it's basically saying that you've breached community standards, but the way you've got there is by someone trying to access your account. So I ended up looking at my email address that's connected to this Facebook, and I got a message at 12:30 AM earlier that morning, and it said someone's tried to access your account, we've closed your account, and you won't be out— it's not it. So it would have gone off then, so it would have been removed at that point because they take it off just in case.

Josh: So last time it was Vietnam was the IP address?

Tommy: No, see, this wasn't even there. They didn't give any of the IP stuff, they didn't give any of that. All they said was someone may have accessed and we have closed it just to be sure. You need to change your password. And so then I did all of that It's— and it's gone. It's gone. And I'm pissed. And I— and it's like, oh my God. I text Jules Lund a screenshot video of me trying to sign in, and it's saying, um, sorry, but we've, uh, you know, you've, you've tried to— you've tried to, um, what do you call it? You've tried to, uh, ask us to assess this, but we've decided that you've— we're closing it completely. And He said, oh, you must have been watching The Social Dilemma. I literally, I called him, I was like, dude, fuck me, that is so funny, because I was. That's so annoying.

Josh: But like, this, the annoying thing about Facebook is it can, they can really, really impact businesses. Like, even, um, even Bree's dealing with issues at the moment where they have a new a chocolate bar that they're launching, and whatever the name is, Facebook are like, don't want to have a bar of it, pun intended. And, um, and so they can't advertise that specific product, and there's like no recourse. Like, they, they speak to the— even the account managers, like, businesses are spending tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands of dollars, yeah, a month on Facebook, and the account managers who are looking after all of this can't even overturn these most basic things.

Tommy: Yeah, which, yeah, it's just scary at that point. Like, I pulled in a heap of favours last time. Jules's contact who helped get it back doesn't work at Facebook anymore.

Josh: Yeah, and what about that algorithm in the social—

Tommy: which one?

Josh: The, the guy who, like, there's 3 of him He's fucking—

Tommy: oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Josh: It's such a dweeb, isn't it? Like, like a dweeb move, just like, oh, like, let's give him a bit of this or give him— get him a bit of that.

Tommy: I was thinking like a, a sort of toxic relationship, um, one, you know, like have a girlfriend that the sex is great but everything around it is shit, but when you're having sex it feels awesome. But then after it, there's jealousy, there's, you know, trust issues. You're feeling anxious about, you know, them having to, you know, them calling you. That is social media. That is fucking Facebook and Instagram. It's a toxic relationship with all its users. And I mean, it's— you could look at these as signs. I'm thinking there's some kind of bug in my fucking account. I don't even know what that means, but it seems like there's some like As an account's not fucking big enough for people for having some sort of— like, I asked Tully Smyth, who has a couple hundred thousand followers, if she— people try and hack hers, or if she's ever had anything like this. She said nah, never. And so how does my Gronkh account, which it's my— it's actually my personal Facebook account that it happened to, which is just me and, you know, 2,000 of my closest, closest best friends. It's—

Josh: that's all it is. And so what are you going to do? What's the— what's your feeling? Because obviously from a social media perspective, there's, um, we've got the Daily Talk Show account, but there is something about when you're dealing, working with brands or things like that, to be able to say, I'll post it on my personal as well. Or when someone's doing checks, I know, who are these guys? Going on to your account and seeing your content, which is one way, one.

Tommy: But then, then you're at the mercy of the platform because you think that the platform is the thing that is calling the shots. But what if you have a rock-solid personal website? And I was thinking, what if—

Josh: content at that point, right? So I think that one of the things with social media, they, they, they mention that, uh, you know quote that we've spoken about heaps, which is, you know, if you don't pay for the product, you are the product. And yeah, you know, what other situation would— you know, if, if Facebook was the ABC, we wouldn't be just throwing all of this content and snippets. We would be saying, hey guys, you got to pay us for this stuff. But we're, you know, pushing content onto these platforms for free. Part of the thing I think is working out the mechanism so if you have a website or if you have some other platform that it promotes you to actually create more content or more work.

Tommy: Yeah, I think there's a— I mean, there's a constant sort of— I mean, if you're in the content game and you're trying to grow a following, like, half the time you don't even know what the fuck you're doing it for or who it's for when you've just spread it across every single platform. And you're like, because they're all individual audiences at that point. So you could have people that follow your YouTube channel, but then also different ones on your Instagram. But that is the issue, that you start not knowing, like, you're like, oh, I don't even know what I should post. And then you start getting all these filters in your head of like, this person, this is, this is just, this just ends up just being a personal page. Like, I should just post family stuff. And then it's like, so what is it then? Content.

Josh: So like, I'm thinking of Brand something.

Tommy: I'm done.

Josh: Done.

Tommy: Okay, I'm done. The only—

Josh: I was thinking, I don't want to all be done.

Tommy: Well, I mean, I see the, I see the benefit of the Daily Talk Show at this point as it's growing. It had more followers than my fucking personal page, and it's sort of just like a—

Josh: it's—

Tommy: I feel like it's slightly less personal having the Daily Talk Show Facebook and Instagram account where it is just a— we have the hero piece, which is this podcast that feeds it, and all the sort of community of this podcast that feeds it, which makes total sense. But I was thinking like removing, uh, personal— like any time for me on Instagram and Facebook relating to my personal account.

Josh: Like, well, I even noticed this. So iOS 14, they have the new library function where rather than deleting an app, you can just hide it from yourself.

Tommy: Have you seen this? No.

Josh: So have you got iOS 14?

Tommy: Yeah, not yet.

Josh: So if you swipe across to the, um, the, uh, like one extra swipe, you get this new library section, which is all of your apps um, and it's sort of almost like the, um, the Applications folder within Mac. And think about your home screen's almost like a dock, I guess. Um, but anyway, yeah, yeah, I, uh, I realised I was just catching myself just on Instagram because I hadn't deleted Instagram. And I was like, you know what, I need to get back on track. Was feeling really good with, um, you know, just Thursdays. And so I went to delete the app, and as I held it down it gives you an option which is, um, remove the app, or, um, or hide, hide the app, or edit. I think it's, um, maybe edit home screen, or I don't know the exact language, I'm not seeing it here. But anyway, it said, do you want to just add, like, uh, put it in the library instead? I was like, oh, you know what, if it's not on the home screen and I can't just have that instant click, I think it'll be just as good as deleting it. And so I put in the library. Anyway, 5 minutes later, I'm like on Instagram. How the fuck did I get here? How did this happen? And I think what, what had happened is I, um, I, I just do the— I do like the search function, right? Um, and so I just like that. You're naked.

Tommy: Yeah, you're naked and you're on your bed looking at Instagram. Yeah.

Josh: Um, So anyway, I, uh, no, I agree. So no, the personal stuff, personal Instagrams, I do wonder about. The other thing is like on, on Sunday I was writing, I was like, oh, we need to get Screenplay Sunday out, how, how can we promote it? I was like, oh, we need to get better at doing our like a regular email to Gronks. And so then it was like, email, thank you. So it was like 7 in the morning, just sitting there like just at my desk. I'm like, I was just literally gonna punch out, hey everyone, Josh here, it's been a while, here's Screenplay Sunday. And then I was like just typing, I was like, ah, I feel like, oh, what about all these people? Like, oh, maybe some people have dropped off and they want context, or it seems a little bit rude just to be like throwing, hey, here's a new thing, without like giving people an actual update. And so before you know it, I'd written 700 odd words around what we've been up to. But I liked that process. I was like, I would much prefer the deep work of doing that versus doing sort of the, the shallow work of the Instagram stuff.

Tommy: Yeah, yeah. Well, it is putting sort of the, the platform before the, the, the content. When you're just on Instagram, you're like, I'll put something up, I'll post something, I'll I'll send out this. Like, what if, what if— so for my person, because you see how it's the most annoying time when we're starting to actually do brand, brand collaborations, and you could see that your personal asset of an Instagram account could play, could help, um, in, in those brand deals. Yeah. And it's like At that point, they've just ripped that out from under me, and that is very annoying. But so then you go, well, you know, the people who won early days on Instagram were photographers who just— that was their thing. And so you're talking about writing, it's like—

Josh: and so maybe for you it's like— so writing, I'm very wary of saying the thing that's good for me but not necessarily good for you. So, but maybe there's something in the video, the short-form video stuff. Like, imagine if we were to do combine all of our skills and say, like, knowing's not doing. I've been telling people, like, you need to create an email list, like, for so long, right? So every, every other gronk to do it, but we don't really do a good job. Like, it's buried on the site. What do you get? Like, what's it like? It's not very obvious. Um, yeah, so there could be something in us all working together on a weekly email, and one of the things could be a video. Is there something about having a video that is unlisted? I know this is like controversial, but if you were like— so for instance, how many video views would your personal YouTube get previously? Like, if you did a video, well, like an average, so like where there's no virality, like you probably got like, what, a few hundred?

Tommy: 400. Yeah, yeah.

Josh: And so we've got like an email list that, that's that size. So how do you feel about, um, like I write something that's just for our email list and you film something just for our email list?

Tommy: Yeah, I like that. I like that. Like where I was thinking was the, um, you take away the social network aspect of it, and you, you look at the craft that needs to be, uh, you know, the craft that's used to create something. So it's like, yeah, video or writing. And I was like, what if the only social media— I mean, is it even social media? YouTube. Like, what if I— the only stuff I ever put out is a video on YouTube?

Josh: Which, well, the thing is, that's even got the same problem. Like, YouTube is a social network. YouTube has the comments, it has all of the, the parts. Like, I feel that podcasting— you watch The Social Dilemma and you realise how lucky we are with being in the podcast space and what we're building. There's no other technology or platform outside of maybe like blogging, but there's like— blogging doesn't have sort of the, um, the public appeal that podcasting does at the moment. And also the intimacy of putting headphones on or earbuds in and listening to something.

Tommy: Yeah, definitely.

Josh: So, I wonder— You're gone.

Tommy: Well, I was thinking for me, if— So, Instagram itself, if it didn't do well, it's not that defined about what the thing I need to do every time is. And will that thing that I have to do give me pleasure? For me, making videos, whether they get seen or not, whether they're unlisted or not on my Instagram— my YouTube channel— is the— making the video is the bit I like. And so I don't like all the other—

Josh: it doesn't matter about the distribution, you're saying?

Tommy: Exactly. And so that's where I was like, if I'm just going to ever create anything, it will land there. Or, you know, because then— because that's— it's not even about YouTube, it's about— it's the video thing. So it could land there, or it could land the Daily Talk Show YouTube, or the video could be posted to LinkedIn. I still see the value in LinkedIn, but I was like, if I just— if all I'm ever doing is making videos for my YouTube channel, for the Daily Talk Show's YouTube, for my LinkedIn, for the business— it's all geared around the business, right? It's all geared around serving big media company.

Josh: Yeah, I think it sounds great. And so like, what's the next step? It's like, what could we do? Like, I, I agree, I get it. Like, I don't think there's any point in me deleting my account in solidarity, but just not— no, no, no, not needing to focus on it or make it— like, the thing is, if it's just like a download, push something out, that type of thing. I mean, the interesting thing is like, so for us, like, we had a a moment, I think, of clarity in August where, you know, we're seeing growth and we're seeing all these sorts of things. And we saw that the— if you look at the levers that we could pull from a growth perspective, the main one that most podcasters are using is, um, guests. And so if you have guests on, you could probably increase your downloads if they're not, you know, unless they're like a massive guests, you're seeing probably a 10 to 20% increase in downloads per guest episode compared to a normal episode. And so for us, I think that we definitely got into, okay, this is our big target in regards to what we want to get with downloads. This is, um, this is the strategy that we can use to get there. This is how many guests. Um, but there is also a beauty in going slower, building something. Because this is what— like, because of this, that option means that it's almost like the, um, the industrial complex stuff, right? Where it's like all of a sudden everyone will only have guest podcasts because that's the only way that you can like build an audience. And so I think that this is like the classic zigging when or zagging when other people are zigging. Um, and so I think just like the guest stuff, you can bring it in, you can bring it in slowly, you can have sort of like a version of it. But being able to have something that's foundational that sits outside of that core system, whilst it might be much smaller— if you look at Instagram, when you post something on Instagram what's the percentage of organic reach that you receive, like, that you're getting? How many people are actually, uh, consuming that content? Um, it's like less than 10%, I think. Like, so engagement—

Tommy: way less than 10.

Josh: I think engagement's like 2% or something. But like, if you look at their email, even so, emails typically you'll get uh, your email will lose, uh, open— like, your open rate will go down based on if you haven't done something in a while. So if it's a bit of a— if it's a bit stale. And so our list, I hadn't done an email in ages, but that still had, right as it stands, a 40% open rate. So if you, if you think about a 40% open rate and then you think about building that I'm just saying all the shit that we've already said before, you know.

Tommy: Oh yeah, I do, mate. It's so annoying because it's only when something like this happens that I feel so much more clear of, well, look at how sort of spread your focus is when you're thinking about, should I post this to Facebook, then Instagram, then I'm gonna send it to Twitter, I'm gonna do the LinkedIn thing, then I'm also gonna do YouTube. So I've gotta work out all those things and start working out statuses. And like, it's, it's messy work, which the— it's put some other sort of this goal of growth, which, you know, I don't even quite understand that for myself, what that means, because the goal is not defined.

Josh: You could—

Tommy: like, it's not like I'm saying everything is just geared around how can this get the most views, which is not— if you stop and think, not necessarily the goal that you want. You could rather say, I would like this to have 500 quality views. That's a more specific goal than let's just get numbers up on this.

Josh: Well, being—

Tommy: let's just get—

Josh: is one business model or one option or one show strategy. It doesn't have to be the strategy. I think that for us what's hard is being the daily talk show when not specifically a niche, but we're also at the same time trying to execute on a strategy that would work well within niches. So what I mean is we don't, we don't aspire to, to have the biggest audience in the world, but we want to be doing the coolest stuff. We want to have, you know, a great community. And that lends itself really well to if you've got a fishing podcast or if you've got, you know, something that's very specific and niche, that by design is smaller and very focused. Whereas one of the things that we're doing is blending the two. We're blending a duo talking, being mates, which is perceived as a mainstream homogenised play. Like everyone— like, if you think about it, it's like, that is mainstream media. But we're trying to do a slightly different skew. Um, so it's interesting. I think, like, I'm excited. I'm getting pumped for this. Idea of— so yeah, so what's the next steps?

Tommy: Yeah, I mean, I don't know. I don't know. I, uh, yeah, I just want to— I, to be honest, Bodhi, it's his last week being at home before he goes to daycare, and I'm just pumped for next week. The amount of— like, it's also one of those times where you're like you feel how disrupted your time is. And even just having to consider somebody, a little kid in the house, like it's, it can be painful when you're just like, Saturday night I said to myself, it was like the afternoon, I was like, I didn't feel great. I was like, if I, if Bodhi, I said, fuck, it's hard having kids sometimes. I don't think I used, I think it was a bit more derogatory than that. I was like, I would go to bed right now. I was just like, it's just venting on having a kid, which—

Josh: To who? Who was this?

Tommy: To Amy. To Bodhi? No, to Amy. But I was like, I would fucking go to bed right now. It's like 5. Like, I would get into bed and I would just eat food in bed and I'd go to sleep. I was like, I can't. That's me.

Josh: That's me.

Tommy: I can't, dude. You can't when you have a kid.

Josh: Yeah, I know.

Tommy: It's like, it's fucking, so that pressure is so full on where you're like, I can't. And then you're like, oh my God. So you feel like, oh, I'm trapped, trapped in this moment. But you love every other moment when you're with the kid. But anyway, point being is you realize, say when Bodhi goes back to, we've got in a rhythm of having him in the house, which is hyper aware that, well, I can only do this for a moment or I'm gonna, my focus is gonna be removed in 2 seconds and I'm gonna have to work late, or he's going back to daycare next week. What excuse does anybody have in this household? We've got a whole day without him here. Like, think about that. I'm just so proud of the work I can get done.

Josh: Is there a level though of scepticism around it for you where it's like with any of these things, like what we spoke about, it's like when this happens, then I'll be able to do this?

Tommy: No, no, I think I've got a lot done. And worked. I've managed to find the groove and have everything that I'm doing, but it doesn't mean that it doesn't come with a hyper level of, you know, anxiety attached to it, or potential anxiety, because you can be focused and then all of a sudden you're ripped, and then you're like annoyed that you've been pulled from the focus that you're in. And, and it's— and it is, it's just like, I'm excited to get through. I, I've got to the last week of having him home and realised that I'm— is like on the fucking edge.

Josh: I'm like, it's like when you're busting to do a piss and you're in the car and you, you know, you're like, hold on, hold on, hold on. And once you get to like from the opening the apartment door to the toilet feels like the craziest. And it's just like you piss exactly when you arrive at the toilet and you think in that moment, I couldn't have done anymore. And so potentially you're at that final stage, you're at the stage of opening the apartment door, and so it's intensified because you know that there's about to be a release as well.

Tommy: Yeah, yeah. But you see how if this was just your normal going forward, yeah, yeah, you probably wouldn't get to this point because, yeah, you're seeing the inside. Exactly what you're saying. And so it's like, yeah, for me this week I'm not doing anything crazy because that's when you fucking piss yourself. Yeah.

Josh: And so what's that like? So just so we can start like planning different things or having thoughts, like what is the— what's like the first easy step that we can implement in this sort of new strategy?

Tommy: Well, I don't even think I know the I just want to think a bit more about it. There's no rush. We're not in there. I'm not in a rush. We're doing one thing. We've got this going.

Josh: So when you're working with a team though, you need to say— so it can be disorientating for a team when we're saying, Mace, you've got to be doing this from a social media perspective. We're doing this, this, this, this. Oh, they're talking about personal, but it doesn't—

Tommy: personal.

Josh: But I think that the person, whether it's personal or brand, us communicating our personal sense of what social media is. Yeah, feels like it does stick to the rest of what we're doing, right? So it's like thinking about there, because there has been a time where our strategy is like, okay, make sure you're doing Insta storeys of the, the show, pushing people. And so getting a sense of, okay, this is This is the actual direction, not even necessarily for you, but for like, what can I start working on?

Tommy: Well, yeah, this is, I mean, this is a, probably needs to be taken offline to actually, if you're wanting to sort of put heads together and work out a new approach and then sticking to that, that's where it's like maybe mine has just triggered a thought to do that.

Josh: And so when you're feeling what needs to, right, like, I think that these things happen based on you adapt and change. And so like, I agree with the, the power of the, the, you know, combining the power of the email convo with what's happening on social media. But I think that like, for me, I'm always like, you don't want to be that goat where it's like water's one side, food's the other. Not really doing anything and just die. So it's like picking— it's picking one thing and saying, okay, if we're going to remove the personal social media stuff, how much time a week have you just gained in your life?

Tommy: Yeah, I mean, it's a— I mean, we can talk offline about this, but having— I mean, as you grow the team, it's like you could have specialists in all different areas. Like what you're saying.

Josh: But the thing is, but my, my point is, it's like there's also the bigger— I think for me this isn't so much, uh, I don't like social media, I don't want to do it, or whatever. It's a— I think it actually comes from a strategic decision. So for instance, there's one thing to say, I don't like social media, I don't want to be on social media. But I feel like potentially where we're going is it's like social media doesn't need to be the server that we think it does for our business. And so if that's the case, it feels like there's this opened opportunity where it's like, okay, it's not having a social media specialist necessarily, it's like getting someone that specialises in something over on the other end of, you know, I don't know what, what that looks like. Um, but, um, yeah, like, I, I think with these things, it's like they are big decisions. So they are like, if they seem small, like saying like, I'm not gonna— like, and you saw that, like, when I was like retiring from social media, that was before we had a business together. Um, and so you think, oh, was it that just when we were getting started? But you see where that will change your approach, or it changes Jess's approach when she's, she's going out and in her mind she's got you as that daddy influencer that can be doing, you know, fun.

Tommy: Yeah, but that's, I mean, but that's not that— yeah, it's not saying I don't create content anymore. It's—

Josh: but where's it? You need a platform though, right? So it's like YouTube.

Tommy: So if I make any video content, it lands on my personal YouTube, which is just like if I had a Instagram account or a Facebook, like I'm just— you just remove all the other platforms and it just happens to be the place where you can store videos, upload them. But it's also where people discover them.

Josh: So there's the audience ownership perspective, right? Which is like, if we can work— if we can nail that down, if we actually have a direct communication method to people Whether it be through email or some other sort of subscription type of thing.

Tommy: Exactly, yeah, yeah, I see what you mean. Yeah, it can live on YouTube, but then it's like it can get pushed to other channels through.

Josh: So, in some regards, like the YouTube bit, all of that sort of stuff is slightly redundant. It's almost like a utility. It's a host, but it's not where the community sits.

Tommy: But it also has it so that there's no discounting that putting things onto social media platforms can reach people beyond who you even know. And so, that's where it's like—

Josh: So, why not put it on Instagram then? Why not just get your personal account going and post to there as well? I can't.

Tommy: As in a new one?

Josh: Or yeah, either starting a new one or, you know, working towards getting this other one fixed.

Tommy: But then you just circle right back. So, it's like— You could easily just have it if it— you just randomly throw it on there as a board of all the stuff you ever do, but then it's not seen as like— I think that— I don't know, what's your answer to that question?

Josh: In terms of— I think there's— there needs to be a clear strategy on why you're doing something. And so, if it's the pain of getting the Instagram back or just being over or annoyed at that thing, that's one thing. But the strategy of saying, okay, we're actually going to do the non-social media approach to these things, it actually requires a higher level of thinking because it's not just— because it's not the, the easy way. Like, it's not like— it's not either delete the Instagram, uh, you know, and go on YouTube type of thing. Like, it, it Yeah, it needs— I feel like it needs a, um, a bigger thinking to it so that it's like, how does— how is it additive in the overall? How do you take something that seems like, uh, a loss or seems like something where it's not moving you forward and actually make it so that it elevates you?

Tommy: Yeah, yeah.

Josh: So that I feel like is the, the the next bit of thinking, which I think, like, that's the, um, that's what I enjoy. I enjoy the strategic thing of like, okay, what is the, what is the thing that we can do? But it needs, um, yeah, I don't know. Does that make sense?

Tommy: Not yet, but I'm sure it will. I would— it—

Josh: so what does it make? How does it make sense?

Tommy: No, it makes sense.

Josh: How does it make sense for you? As someone who has a media business to get off social media personally?

Tommy: Yeah, but I don't think— I haven't said I'm off social media altogether. Like, I have not. I'm just like, I'm done with having to fucking try and get my Instagram back or my Facebook page. I don't see the— like, it's—

Josh: and so what is that? What does that mean?

Tommy: I think the time should be spent thinking about what, what I need to do next. Outside of just getting it back. And, and I don't have the answer just yet. So it's worth continuing to think this week about what that approach looks like.

Josh: Yeah, but also I think like I'm easy with how we— like which way we go. I think we should just try and work out how we do it so you end up stronger afterwards. And it's not just because the other thing is the feeling you have is fleeting. The feeling of being pissed off with the social media thing, you might feel differently in 3 weeks' time. Or if—

Tommy: not even that pissed off, I'm actually like, it's, it's more just like slightly removed based on the like not wanting to lose like something that makes you lose, uh, being in the moment with your family. Based on losing a social media platform. Like, that sounds so dumb. It sounds so dumb.

Josh: There are two conversations that we're having, one of which is a, a personal— so the difficult thing is Tommy Jackett, the Instagram account, serves both a personal and business purpose. And so, uh, we can look at it in a way which is just a business purpose, which would mean it's a 9-to-5 potentially. Or, you know, like, what does it look like to be like, oh, I'm going to spend half an hour a week and I'm going to be sharing something on there? I'm not doing the big consumption type of thing.

Tommy: I mean, if you put that back onto yourself, I don't know if it's possible for a lot of people. Like, it's— they're not— so you watch The Social Dilemma, they're not built for that clear-headed thinking because it's the, the platform itself robs you of that ability.

Josh: And so YouTube does that as well.

Tommy: Most people don't have the ability to hold off like that and just do the 30 minutes. And so I'm just trying to work out what gears me towards doing the thing I'm most powerful at, which is making video content. It's not posting photos on Instagram. And so then what is the thing that forces me to create video content that then can be put out? But I'm—

Josh: So it needs to be— So do you think that it needs to be on our own platform or something that's not attached to— Because the thing is, like, there's two parts. It's you and how you feel, but also if you feel this way, audiences feel this way too. So by us making a decision and saying we're actually not going to put all this great content over here, we're going to put it in a more direct way where it can be more thoughtful. Um, yeah, I feel like that's, that's potentially, that's potentially an option.

Tommy: Yeah, yeah. I mean, they're big calls that no, not everyone does because of the feeling that these platforms make you feel, which is like I need to be doing it, I need to be serving them. But you're not even— most of these people feeling like that don't even have a huge audience, but they're like trying to.

Josh: And so how do we work out? 'Cause I think that the friction that you and I have ever had within our business is it's like I'm keen to have an answer or not even have an answer, open the conversation and say like, let's actually put it, let's put a mark in the calendar and say this is when we're gonna do this thing. Um, and so this feeling that you have of like unsureness or not wanting to do the social media thing, how do we then use that within our business to actually be a positive thing versus being this like little sort of annoyance that where we're like, oh, we don't know what to do with our social stuff.

Tommy: Yeah, like you said, it's a line in the sand of— but then it's the thinking that needs to go into working out what's on the other side of that line.

Josh: And so how do you define that then? How do you— like, how do we— so for instance, I think the friction that you and I have had previously is I'll say, like, it's both of it. Like, we're coming from different angles and we're both annoying in our own versions. The annoyance that I bring to you is I'm like, okay, well, like, what are we going to do? What's the, what's the thing? And you, uh, you will say, I need to think about it. But we do sometimes, from my perspective, it's like, well, how do I— like, I'm building, like, I'm working on strategy every day at the moment. I'm trying to work out where we're going. If this has been a, an element, if this is a potential, even if it's 10% of a business in regards to strategy, switching that 10% potentially will hinder or change another 30%. It could be a hinder, but it also could be something super positive. Like, we could say, okay, let's, let's, um, put sort of the social media specialist, like, that goal of doing some big social media play and say, let's do email, or let's, um, let's invest in a backend of our website so that there's our own sort of login system or subscription or stuff like that. Do you think I read that right?

Tommy: Yeah, but I think you're worried about the no answer there, and I don't have an answer. So then they're like, well, so the answer—

Josh: so this is the— so this is what it is. The biggest question they always asked, which is like, it's because I can't come up with the answer because the answer is, what do you want? And what do you want?

Tommy: Yeah, I want to just create video content that, um, yeah, I want to do the thing that, that gets me. So the only thing I'm doing is creating communicating through video. What's your biggest challenge for my own personal brand?

Josh: What's your biggest challenge?

Tommy: Um, oh, I think there's the, the focus, this, the spread focus, the spread focus.

Josh: And so the personal brand thing, because that's always something you and I have talked about. So personal brand has been your, um, biggest asset, but within the context of a business it can be harder because it's like when you look at how big you can get and how you can grow and all of that sort of thing, all of a sudden you can see how the, the other things trump the personal brand play, if that makes sense. Um, how do you, how do you—

Tommy: but I think they're important. I think, oh, definitely, I think they're important. I think they feed everything. I think individuals having their own personal brand within a business amplifies the business. And so it's, it's doing exactly what we're saying.

Josh: And so the difference is it's like a personal brand with a context of business. So there's the—

Tommy: of course, I think everything— I think the difference is everything is geared towards this business. I think when you're just solo and not sure about what you're doing, it's like all self-serving based on just not having anything connected to it. But when you have something connected, when you have a business and then a personal brand within that business, especially when you're the one of the founders, it's all serving.

Josh: But do you think that the problem that you have at the moment, or what you're bringing, is a personal problem based on how you're feeling, uh, and you've come up with a solution potentially to fix that? But I wonder what the business case— like, because I think there is a business case, but I think that the, the thought has been around, I don't want to be doing— like, I don't want to be wasting my time on that stuff, or you know, getting time that's sucked up that I could be spending with my family, or I don't think it's necessarily that effective, or whatever it is. So all of the things you're saying are correct, but the question is like, what is the, what is the business play? What do you think it could be? So if you're feeling this way and audiences are feeling this way, and if we were to come up with, okay, social, social media as we know it. Yeah, for instance, like TikTok. Like, uh, we could be big on TikTok, but we have personally not gravitated towards TikTok. Um, and so what is the— what is the— like, what is the play? Like, not having all of the answers, but just fucking spitballing like this is an offline conversation. What would be some of the, the options?

Tommy: Yeah, yeah, I don't know. I— there's, there's something in just a focus on doing, executing on the craft, or focusing on the quality of the, of the stuff that you're creating.

Josh: So it's like removing the audience come into it. Like, I think that if you think about our network, the constant thing we're talking about is think about your audience. When you have something like an Instagram account, it's a— I think that personal Instagram accounts are one of the worst audiences because it's like this weird hybrid of, of not being clear on what it is. But what is— if you think about craft, um, and then you connect it with audience, what does that look like for you?

Tommy: Yeah, I think there's probably an opportunity to be more conscious about the stuff that you are creating. And so it's like it's starting again because I think you, you have an Instagram account as a teenager into your adulthood, and then you've just got all your mates. And then if you haven't developed a big audience— I mean, once you can hypothesise about the audience before they've arrived, or there can be the focus on what you're doing that could serve some people that then you start to understand that audience when they are there. They might never come, and— but it is like, it's constantly iterating on what you're doing. So it would be a whole different approach, like, if I was to look at what I would be creating now, um, it's, it's different to what it was 8 years ago, 5 years ago, 3 years ago.

Josh: And so who's your personal YouTube audience right now?

Tommy: Oh, no one. No one. Even there's, you know, 1,200 subscribers, it's no— there's no one. I don't see— you can't see that as some audience that you have just based on subscriber numbers.

Josh: Why is that?

Tommy: Because I haven't been posting a great deal. Like, it's that when you don't know, it's like, how do you know? It's all the people that have watched your previous videos, so they either like what you create, and they're just like, I like that guy, I like the, the videos he makes. But it's hard to identify what that actually all means at that point.

Josh: If, if you heard a creator— if, say, someone, a creator who was coming to us who had one of our workshops or whatever, trying to work out what they want to do— what would you be advising yourself if you were someone else?

Tommy: What do you like doing? What are you gonna do the most of? What will bring you the most joy?

Josh: And what's that for you, do you think?

Tommy: Well, I think it's creating, uh, video content about the things that I'm thinking about enjoying or interested in with the people that I like.

Josh: What is it about that you come back to the medium a lot? What is it about the medium that you like?

Tommy: Well, I enjoy the process. I enjoy creating a video. Like, I enjoy creating personal content like that. I mean, it's why I got into video production.

Josh: Do you think that that's part of—

Tommy: I'm not talking about people, I'm not talking about writing. Like, I'm not talking— I don't identify like you do with writing. And so I don't— and so then that's— it's like a painter who enjoys putting a paintbrush to the canvas and they like spending time doing that. And so that's where—

Josh: so then where's the intentionality around audience then? Because there's one thing to be like, I'm going to go and just create videos Which I think I've seen a lot of people do, and you see these YouTube channels and it's— it doesn't necessarily— it's not even about going viral or whatever, but it's just about having some sort of clear promise around what that content is.

Tommy: Yeah, which I, I know it's not about just me going from today and then just filming something. That's not how it works. It needs more thought than that.

Josh: And so what is that? What is the next thought? What are the—

Tommy: I don't think we're going to find out today, JJ, on this podcast.

Josh: But what are the actual qu— like, rather than like having the answers, what are the actual questions if you put it back on, um, that sort of removing yourself from it and giving advice or thoughts to a creator that's trying to figure it out?

Tommy: Yeah. Um, yeah, what, uh, I'm brain dead, mate. I'm done.

Josh: Yeah, I think that like the— I mean, from a— from my perspective is that it's not like you're posting much on your personal Instagram anyway.

Tommy: I, I know, and that— yeah, that's exactly right.

Josh: Um, and so, um, but I think that what you're also seeing is the pain of unintentional creating. And so there's, there's the creating for the love of it, but then if you can combine it with an audience or a promise— and I think that the daily talk show, like Gronkhs, are a great first extension in regards to the types of content you're creating. I think that where you were shining the most when you were creating those daily videos for the Gronks because it's like for the first time you had a clear audience that would come back every single day. And so starting from scratch or posting, um, just sort of switching platforms onto, say, YouTube, I feel like it falls into that, um, the content— like just a content creator Whereas I think that there's something else.

Tommy: I think that probably the biggest, the biggest challenge is having a personal brand that's not a niche, because then you— then what are you doing? And so you could come up with an idea. So you use the, the love of video to then go fishing and create fishing videos because you love making fishing, but you also love videos. But, and so then you, you start understanding You know, you're totally right. Like, it's who are you creating for? Once you have that clear idea in your head, it, it make— it, it makes everything else easier.

Josh: Yeah. And it feels like there's something potentially on, like, thinking about my own needs or the business, like, even from a business perspective, doing content around business, like media stuff, like where all this stuff is going. I mean, there's a heap of power in that, um, because then you see that it's like the ultimate power move where it's— you're combining, uh, what you love doing with, uh, the business in a really tangible way. So the audience are the, the people who would actually, you know, interact with us or buy from us or things like that.

Tommy: Yeah.

Josh: Yeah, um, it could be something there. But yeah, we can, um, I think it's hi@thedailystalkshow.com if you've got any thoughts. I reckon I recognise that it's like I'm clearly not a good coach or whatever it is in these moments because I'm— because we, you and I, are both triggered from, you know, 3 years of having these types of conversations. It's what makes us strong as a as a show and as a business partnership and the willingness to figure it out.

Tommy: Yeah, but I guess the essence of that is that it shouldn't be driven by the social platform. No, it should be driven by the internal, um, this, like, the team discussion, the strategy, right?

Josh: Like, I think the strategy, for whatever reason, gets fucking missed. For so many people around. Like, that's what I'm trying to like bring it back to. Like, if we can just— can— if we can have one extra thought before creating and just be like, oh, this is what the aim of the game is. How do you know? Like, I think that's the issue with daily vlogging. Daily vlogging sort of just ends up sort of eating itself because it's, it's, um, it's like, what is it about? Like, who's it for? Yeah, it sounds like you've got to go.

Tommy: Well, then you're lucky if you land on an audience, you know, but I think that's what— this is the trap that everyone's looking to the biggest vloggers in the world who have lucked out and landed a massive audience. Yeah, one more week, Josh, one more week.

Josh: G'day, Bodhi.

Tommy: Say happy last week.

Josh: Okay. Hey, Bodhi.

Tommy: What was that? Fuck Instagram.

Josh: Oh, Jesus, Cody. Uh, thanks everyone, it's the Daily Talk Show. Uh, we'll see tomorrow. I'm still on Instagram, give me a follow, Josh Jansen.

Tommy: Can you not remove my symbol either? That was offensive last time. Just leave it.

Josh: I was just gonna wipe you out. Just—

Tommy: no, no, no, just don't remove it. That's rude.

Josh: Okay, it's rude.

Tommy: Salt in the wound.

Josh: Okay, well, I mean, it— they can't click on it.

Tommy: But it doesn't matter. What does that matter?

Josh: So, are you trying to get it back or no?

Tommy: No, I can't. Like, I don't want to pull in the favours that I did before. It's too much.

Josh: So, it's done. Give it a thought. Give it a thought. I feel like, yeah.

Tommy: I could send one email, but then it's like—

Josh: Is it pulling in favors? Like, it's a bit— I mean, it depends how I do it.

Tommy: It is favors. It is completely speaking to people that I don't know that are friends of friends.

Josh: That are—

Tommy: that they're needing to act upon something that it doesn't affect them personally. They don't care about me or know me.

Josh: So it's, it's, um, but it's a big deal having something like it that, like, you know, if you had 70,000 followers or, you know, if you had— it's just, just because you haven't hashtag gone viral or reach some level of, um, success that you think that you need before you are justified to be able to have those conversations. Yeah, but I think, you know, yeah, it'd be good to know why the fuck it keeps happening.

Tommy: Yeah.

Josh: All right, cool. All right, uh, have a good day, guys. We'll see you tomorrow.

Tommy: See you guys.