Money, The Journey & Delayed Gratification

Josh: It's The Daily Talk Show, episode 831.

Tommy: What's happening, guys? What is going on? Happy Monday. How are we, JJ?

Josh: Happy Monday to you, Tummy Jacket.

Tommy: Uh, yeah, mate, I just finished golf.

Josh: That's what James was saying in the, uh, comments. He's, he's in Brizzy.

Tommy: Just, I was just trying to feel what it would feel like to have just finished golf. It's Monday morning, you know, heading for a top of 20, uh, if you're living in Brisbane. That's That's not us.

Josh: Melbourne is 11, did you say?

Tommy: Top of 11 in Melbourne today. And there's a lot of house activity. You can go out for your 1 hour, but that's about it. You can make up a few excuses of why you need to go to the shop 6 times, but just know it's illegal.

Josh: Well, I just—

Tommy: It is.

Josh: I was actually thinking like I need to start using drugs. No, using the time that I have, the hour a day to do something, because I'm literally not Yeah. Like, Bri was like, come on, just, you got to go outside. I haven't gone outside in weeks. Really? Wow. Why? Like, I just haven't, like, I just haven't left the apartment because I'm just like, the, the drama of the whole thing. You're the walking guy. That's the thing Bri keeps saying. She's like, you fucking love walking. And I'm like, yeah, but I just, the simplicity of fresh air and walking and I just can't be fucked with it.

Tommy: But I, Hang on, that doesn't make sense. The simplicity, as in, so isn't that why you would want to do it?

Josh: So the reason I love it is that it used to be simple. So all you needed to do was one foot in front of the other, fresh air, all of that sort of thing. Now it is, I'm looking at these people wearing masks, what's happening here, there's a fucking—

Tommy: I would tell you, I'll just tell you, just as a guy who's actually using the great outdoors as much as I can. Walking hasn't changed. It's still one foot after the other. Fresh air has gone down because you've got a mask on, but it's— I was walking yesterday. I literally, I was listening to a podcast and it was someone saying, when was the last time you went for a walk for no reason? So, you're not trying to, it's not because you want to do exercise. Like it's, you're trying to just, you're dropping every reason to try and get out to do it. And it's a hard one because that is when you don't want to do it and you're trying to attach a reason to the walk so that you make it happen. But you gotta do it.

Josh: You gotta do it. No, I agree. I mean, this is— I have a book which maybe I should— we should just read a page out of now. It's called A Philosophy of Walking. It's all about walking. Alright. Because we know that I love walking.

Tommy: And we're not even shooting for the stars here. This is just the bare minimum. Like, this is just—

Josh: I actually underlined some stuff in it, so maybe I can just read some of the underlined stuff. Here we go.

Tommy: Okay, go, go.

Josh: Um, but then again, it is material reviews, spectacles, a market. I don't understand what that means. Uh, walking is not a sport. When you are walking, there is only one sort of performance that counts: the brilliance of the sky, the splendour of the landscape. That's nice.

Tommy: Yeah, no, I think you meant— what you mentioned is taking into account you're like taking on everyone else's shit. Yeah, because you can still walk with a mask on and not give a fuck about other people who aren't wearing masks. It's like, because it's not affecting you. If you're just out going for a stroll. It's worth it.

Josh: Is wonderful.

Tommy: It's worth it. What is your step count? Can you open your step count?

Josh: Yeah, I can. By walking, you escape from the very idea of identity, the temptation to be someone, to have a name and a history. Isn't that great?

Tommy: Oh yeah, my steps are real low, like in comparison to normal.

Josh: Are mine more?

Tommy: On average.

Josh: Absolutely disgusting, because I'm a walking guy. I walk.

Tommy: Well, you know, you're not needing to walk to the office, which is a couple of K's.

Josh: My guess is it would be under 400 steps a day.

Tommy: Can you please just open it? I've got, so for the 22nd of August, a couple of days ago, 920. I have been trying to leave my phone at home a bit. If I am going out with Bodhi, there's some times that I'm just, there's been more skateboard action.

Josh: So we go, so I'll go The week, yeah.

Tommy: Yeah, just go week, so average.

Josh: So, the average is 1,400.

Tommy: Yeah.

Josh: Which is— And so, if you look at it, it's like Sunday 441, Monday 1,800 was big. Tuesday, I don't know what happened on Tuesday, the 18th of August, Tuesday the 18th, did 3,899. That's huge for that. But then, Wednesday, 1,071.

Tommy: Yeah.

Josh: Uh, Thursday, 991. Friday, 1,121. And then Saturday, 650. Sunday, I did 490 steps yesterday.

Tommy: Do you remember when you set out to be the million steps in a month guy?

Josh: Yeah, fuck my life.

Tommy: How far did you get in?

Josh: Well, 3 days. I had to do 33,000 steps a day and I was waking up at 5, I could do that. There is something in the— What's the curfew finish? No, no, I won't do a million. But what's the curfew? When does the curfew finish?

Tommy: Curfew finish— Curfew, I think restrictions all finish on September.

Josh: No, no, sorry. Curfew as in, in the day. So, it starts at 8 PM.

Tommy: Oh, sorry.

Josh: 5 AM.

Tommy: 5 AM. Til 8 PM is when you can do shit. Yeah, so it's between 8 PM and 5 AM you're not allowed out of your house.

Josh: But you got to say, like, the first wave, if you go to Josh Janson on my— if you go to my Instagram, you can see I did a series called Alone Outside where every single day I posted, what was it, 5 or 10 photos that I'd taken.

Tommy: And I, Josh, once had a viral video and I milked that fucker for 2 months.

Josh: Yeah, but that is it. It's so— but the thing is, I wouldn't get away. And, and this isn't saying that I need to be doing something to go for the walk, but I wouldn't be able to if I did what I did then with having the camera out and taking— I would have been stopped straight away.

Tommy: No, there's no one around. Trust me, I've seen so many fucking people pushing it. Hard, hard. Like, people out of their areas.

Josh: So I wonder, like, we've seen—

Tommy: No, no, no, out of their areas. Like St Kilda, Collingwood. Like, people just pushing the boundary as far as how far they meant to go.

Josh: You don't have to— This is the thing is that I don't want to push the bound— Like, I just, like, I am someone, even though I am Pushback Jansen, I don't like breaking rules. And so I just, I just don't want to fucking— I don't know, like Now that we have masks, can more than one person go in the lift at a given time? I mean, even going to the gym.

Tommy: But you do see what happens. All you need to do is look at what's happened. You haven't done fuck all, Steph. Like, you haven't done the walking. I think what you said was great.

Josh: This isn't gonna be forever. I think, I mean, if it's— I've got my exercise bike. I was using my exercise bike last week. So, if I continue that, I was doing 20 minutes a day. But I should, but definitely it's good to have some exertion.

Tommy: I like the point around just use the hour a day to be outdoors. It is good.

Josh: I think it requires an early start for me. I think I'll, if I can do it where it's not hustle and bustle. And this is the weird thing, you know, we're talking about like, you know, where we would eventually one day move. My parents are building a place in Cowes at the moment, which looks great. And like, it's going to be, it's got that sort of coastal sort of vibe. I think I would like it. The thing is, though, with all of these places is it's like these sort of estates, you have houses on top of each other. So, it's like they've got like a double storey next door. And it's like you can sit, like you can see, like it's a bit ridiculous. Yeah.

Tommy: I mean, what you need is acreage and a bunker to really have no one believe that anyone could live on that property.

Josh: Well, so that's what I was looking into. But man, you have to be a multi-multi-millionaire to have a bunch of land. And because I was looking at it, so I started off on realestate.com.au, started on, where was it? Arthur's Seat. Looking at places at Arthur's Seat, couldn't find anything that I liked for under $1.9 million.

Tommy: Mate, I mean, Arthur's Seat's pretty flashy.

Josh: Like, is it?

Tommy: If you owned a property, there's limited space at Arthur's Seat. So it's like if you owned a property there, it's probably been in the family for many years or you're really rich.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: I mean, this is gonna be the case anywhere you go. You're gonna have to go somewhere where people don't like yet. So it's not probably gonna be a smart investment. It's purely based on being cheap and away from everything.

Josh: What about Dramana? I was, I sort of started zooming out looking for houses.

Tommy: Yeah, they're a bit rough. Like, I mean, it's fine, but it's Dramana, Rosebud, all these places are the sort of outskirts of the nicer areas.

Josh: But one wonder is, and Dramana has the drive-in, which is handy.

Tommy: But they will become nice. I guess that's it. I mean, it's a different storey when you actually have the money and you're ready to do something because then you can say, well, it will become nicer or it will become gentrified in this area.

Josh: So, but then What I was thinking is I was like, okay, maybe I don't want to. So, I like the idea. I've spoken about regional stuff, but then I was trying to put myself into the reality. I think there is a part of me that likes the option of going outside and having a café. So, it's a real conundrum.

Tommy: Yeah. Well, coastal towns, I mean, but then they're expensive. I mean, this is, let's step this up again. Let's step this up. And start bringing that bacon. Buy your Dramana property, mate. It's, uh, I understand what you're saying.

Josh: Uh, but I, uh, no, I was actually, I was watching a YouTube video, uh, on a guy, like, it's just a content creator dude, he's like an artist, and, um, he started a new channel where he's talking about— it's the guy who, um, uh, has Mango Street is his, um, is his YouTube channel, and he's got his own YouTube channel now where it's like how To make cash, right? Where he just like demos it, sort of like I'm not a guru type of thing, like I'm just gonna try these things. And he was doing trading, right, like stocks and shit, or like— I didn't completely understand, he's buying contracts or I don't fucking understand it. But anyway, he went from $1,500— he had $1,500, by the end of the month he had $60 grand, right? And I'm not one to buy into this type of hype where it's like, you know, be, you know, get rich quick, Lambos and all that sort of thing. But then when he was explaining it where it's like, oh yeah, so I just like, you have to work out whether Apple is going to be fucking, uh, like you, you lock it in at a price or whatever, and then, um, if Apple goes up or whatever, you can then like sell it and then you get the— Yeah. And so I was getting I had this moment where I had to catch myself on the weekend where I was like, I think I could do this. I think not only could I do this, but like, I reckon I could fucking get, get really obsessed, get it on the computer, do like that day trading shit and all that sort of thing.

Tommy: Yeah.

Josh: But I think that it's— you, you hear about it. Have you heard of Robinhood?

Tommy: No, I mean, as in yes, yes, but no, not—

Josh: so there's an app, there's an app called Robinhood. And, um, uh, it makes it easy for anyone to trade in the US. But it's become so easy that gronks are doing it, and they're like— a guy, um, fucking killed himself after he lost $100,000. Like, just because it's so easy now, every man and his dog's doing it, and they think it's easy cash. And they're watching that fucking, um, David Portnoy or whatever from Barstool saying, if I can buy these and do this and all this sort of thing, it's like There's no— like, it seems like really easy money, but that's what scares me. I feel like eventually this is all going to catch up. And even when I was watching the old documentary on the big crash or whatever, the Great Depression, they were talking about it like people were fucking killing themselves because they had like taken money out of the till of the work that they had and they'd put it into the market because they knew that they could fucking double their money. And then one day it didn't happen.

Tommy: Yeah, I guess it's like any investment opportunity that suddenly appears is— it's so if someone offers you an investment opportunity, at that point you, uh, you've taken out all of the work of identifying and finding it for yourself, right? So you're, you're relying on someone's word. I mean, it's the— it's almost the equivalent of the network marketing style. So back before you know, the apps were a thing where you're just making investments. You— someone would, you know, meet with you, tell you about a product and tell you how much of a good opportunity it is and what do you want to get involved and buy. Like, the— it was a higher barrier to, to get in and the— and so the promise was still there. But now if it's all just via your phone, it's the same thing with gambling. My mate had a gambling problem, was waking up at 3 AM betting on handball in Kazakhstan. It's too easy.

Josh: But it is, and it's like, it's literally the thing— the fucked up thing is that, uh, what I was sort of realising when I was watching it all was you can create a great storey around, oh man, I know so much about Apple. And like, what excited me about it is not the money bit necessarily, it's the— yeah, think about Fitbit. Think about— remember how I said how fucked Fitbit was going to be, and my brother was like, nah, Fitbit's gonna be great? I said, no, Fitbit this stock is going to be fucked. If we look, and that was—

Tommy: which is the— this is the counter, counter-investor, because you're just telling people to get out because it's gonna go down.

Josh: So this is what you can do. So there's—

Tommy: I forget all the fucking terms, but you can bet on people losing their whole business.

Josh: Yeah, no, so what you do— no, so what you can do is— I mean, we should have an investor on to actually explain this, but, uh, Like, you can buy these, uh, maybe it's fucking called options or whatever. Like, so you buy a contract, and what you would say— and they have expiry dates and shit, uh, but what you can say is, okay, at Apple, for instance, if you thought that Apple was going to, uh, um, lose, uh, like, value, you could say, okay, uh, I know people are fucking listening to this going JJ's butchering this, but you can basically say, okay, I think that it will get to, you can lock in a, fuck, I'm not even gonna explain it. No, I will explain it. Basically you can say, I think it's gonna fucking lose money and then the difference or whatever of what it goes down, you can fucking take it. But then I don't understand what it means from so many things, like what it means from like a tax implication perspective and then fucking, um, but what I do like, the bit that excited me was I feel like there's so many times where I look at something and I say, like, say for instance everything that's happening with, um, Google and then all the antitrust stuff and all that sort of thing. I could like look at the news and say, okay, based on this, I actually think that it's going to go this way. Or say with the whole Fortnite thing, thing with Apple and saying, okay, this is going— like, I reckon that it will go into the favour of the developers. And so then that will be seen as a— anyway, I understand.

Tommy: I mean, whatever you said, I want to put money behind it. I don't care. I've got $10 grand. Can you invest for me?

Josh: I'm joking.

Tommy: No, what about starting a TDTs investment fund? —where we just start putting in small bits of cash. This is the thing, you don't have to invest, like, I think when people think about investing, you've got heaps and heaps of money. So, people are investing smaller amounts of cash. Well, what about—

Josh: So, what I thought, I wrote down this. Well, just to give you an idea. So, when my brother and I were fighting about Fitbit, that was 20— 2015. And the stock was at $47, right? 2015. Yeah, Fitbit stock is currently at $6.35. I mean, I don't know what that means, so I should be a billionaire, I think, based on that. Uh, no, but what I was thinking about, what I wrote down was, um, paper trading. So, uh, as in currency, or— no, so I think what paper trading is, is it's like I don't know if you ever did this in school, but they give you, like, a login and you trade stock. Like, you trade stuff, but it's all fake. It's all based on the actual markets, but you understand how it works. It's sort of like gambling in the library. I used to play Drug Lords.

Tommy: It was this sort of like— It was this bizarre game that was like, You just press these buttons on the screen, like buy heaps of cocaine from Mexico, and I'd like— you just see this number going up and you've been captured by the cartel and you've had your head cut. It was bizarre. If you've ever— it's very nostalgic. It was this weird game on Windows probably about 20 years ago.

Josh: So how do you feel? Like, what— it would be good if we could find a a trading social network where all the gronks can go on there, and I can then flex my, my knowledge of the fucking tech industries or whatever without us actually losing money. And then maybe I can be proven wrong. Maybe I'm not as smart as what I think I am.

Tommy: Maybe I think you're investing, you doing the handshake saying I'm, I'm okay for losing money. You don't want to, but that's what investing is. Yeah, I remember my my mum's friends. We went up and stayed with them on the Sunshine Coast. And so funny, it's like whenever I smell percolate— percolated coffee in the morning, it reminds me of being at this house when I was probably 8 or 9. I'd wake up and I'd smell that, and I'd go and look out. You could see the water, and I, and I'd see this couple that we're staying with. They, you know, were waiting for the the stock markets are open, and then they'd be spending their mornings on the stock, on, you know, looking at the stocks and, and doing their trading, their day trading. And but that is— becomes a job. Like, you need an interest level that is so high.

Josh: Like, we have so many— how long I look at— like, how much I've looked at podcast analytics that 100% any fucking cash, surely. I know, dude, surely if I was to think about my obsessive nature and think about how like I love strategizing and tweaking things. Like, yeah, I think that I'm actually like, not joking, I think that there's a lot of people obviously that, um, it's a bad idea for who's just like just trying to fucking make guesses or whatever. And everyone's making a guess, but I'd like to think that was a little bit strategic.

Tommy: I mean, but so it's like anything, you— it's like saying I want to start investing, but then there's a version of before you even have any cash at looking at what your superannuation's doing and actually understanding where the money you have and what it's actually doing and how it's making its money. And so it's like you have to understand the track.

Josh: You realise how little you know. Like what I realised is I was like, fuck, okay, I'm going to do this. And I'm like, okay, I'm gonna set up an account. I fucking like went onto the website. I was just like, yeah, like '97 got me to set up one of these accounts already.

Tommy: It's just like— and that's the thing, all what you're talking about is the easiest part of it, and the hardest bit is I don't know, keeping out on it.

Josh: I think that the, the hard, the hard bit in Australia especially is it's like, it's not like you fucking download an app and it's like easy. Like, um, in the States a lot of the trading, there's not like crazy fees associated. Every time you do a trade in Australia, it's like you're clocking up fees, especially with like the big banks.

Tommy: I know, I know. But the thing is, so I look at my brother—

Josh: Like if it was easy, like so if the barrier to entry was like, oh, download this app, connect it straight to your ING, and then there's like no fees, you can just— and it's all very easy. Yeah, just imagine.

Tommy: I guess that's the trap though. The easy bit I'm talking about is going to the website and sort of wanting to do the account but without getting into the actual interest of the stock though, right? That's the— exactly, exactly.

Josh: That's, that's podcasting, that's fucking filmmaking. Yes, it's anything.

Tommy: And so when do you, when do you go? Because it is centralized, it's, it's purely attached to cash. Like you say that the— it's You're— I mean, if you had the interest that you do in stocks as you do in podcasting, you'd probably have a lot of money because it makes more sense.

Josh: But stocks are— and maybe, maybe I'm oversimplifying this, but— and this is the issue at the moment by the sounds of it, is it's like the markets aren't acting as like as they should based on, okay, like the actual value of companies and where the stock price is going. But if there is a connection, if it is about value of a company, um, like I was listening to, um, the Random Show, this, the, um, you know, Kevin Rose and Tim Ferriss. I sent you the link.

Tommy: Is that their show? They do that? Is that— yes, definitely.

Josh: They do all the time, or— yeah, well, I was— I emailed them in 2010 about it, so they've been doing it for like over 10 years.

Tommy: But it would just be They come in and out of doing it.

Josh: Yeah, yeah, well, yeah, they would just do it randomly. They'll do like, it's in the name or whatever.

Tommy: Yeah, no, no promise, no promise of a show. That's the name of the show.

Josh: But, um, they, uh, they were talking about like early adopter stuff. I was thinking about all of the, like, what is the use of all the geeking out that I do? Like, I was watching an old video which was like 10 years ago that was talking, um, about Square, you know, like the payment system. It was like the first— this was when it connected to your headphone jack. And like, say Kevin was doing like a demo, a demo or whatever. I was just thinking about like how many things— like, so for instance, it's, it's that whole, that whole case of like, oh, if you took the price of an iPod and instead of buying the iPod you put it into Apple stocks you would be worth like a fuck tonne of money or some shit. Like, I don't know if that's—

Tommy: no, I know what you mean. Where, where do you think is the better gamble for you in terms of—

Josh: well, the thing is, I don't— so I don't— I think that it's, um, you just have that thing where it's like, oh, maybe, um, uh, there's a real direct correlation to cash versus, say, content. It's all like trying to work out the exact model. I think that even though I'm turning, like, I think that the— where I land with things is I'm still fucking young. Like, 30— like, turning 30 next month is still really young. And so if I, uh, I think that the biggest risk that anyone can, can take is just getting out of the thing that they're building too early. And so for me, I'm like, oh, we're at the early— like, wherever we end up Uh, it will like— we'll be closer to understanding where we need to go. And I think that all of those things, it's like, I'm gonna do trading and do it like— that is this sort of, um, it's, it's— I don't think it's like— it's not productive. It's— I think it's, it's just like that's the distraction that 99% of the world gets caught up because you speak to people, you speak to people who, uh, could be trading, but also just people that have cash And it's not— there's no correlation around like having cash and being happy. I think that's like the problem. So, it's like, okay, well, part of it is identifying. It's like, okay, it's like the ownership, like the home ownership thing. Like in Australia, there's so much sort of emphasis on what owning a home is going to do. Whereas like most people have massive mortgages or whatever and they don't really own the home. But it's just this— yeah, it's a weird switch in your head where it's like, I could never imagine— say when I think about like the dream of like the fucking, the bigger property and having the studio space, like that's never a rental in my mind because I'm like, I want to be able to fucking like knock shit down and get things set up properly and feel Maybe it's like a sense of security, maybe especially during a pandemic, that's what everyone's seeking.

Tommy: I think we look to what is sexy, right? And that is having the property with the acreage and the studio, all of that, right? The reality is though— Motorbike. Oh, fucking oath, and guns. I'd have a motorbike too. Would you have a gun? And a tractor. What sort of gun would you have? I'd have just an over-and-under shotty. And a clay target. I just clay targets. My brother's got one. He's got a target slapper. Nah, real gun. Anyway, I would love a BB gun. If you think about it, the— what, what isn't sexy, or what isn't sold as sexy, is understanding your superannuation, getting out of debt so you, you can have a savings account and some backup cash for times like this. And that's what most of us don't have. I think there's a majority of people that don't have that that should, and then that's like baseline. And so it's hard because I— yeah, I'm totally, um, drawn to the sexier version, not the baseline health, health cheque of like, you know, having something, a healthier financial situation for myself, which I guess that's the Barefoot Investor's book, right? It's like, yeah, the majority of people are on, you know, the average income, whatever it is, $60,000, and you can still own a house earning $60,000, $65,000. You can— there's a whole bunch of things you still can do with the lower end to be financially secure.

Josh: And so I think that that's like, even like, everyone's on their own path as well. Like everyone's seeking different— like Bri and I, from when we were 18 years old, we're like, we're not going to have kids. And that was always like part of the— it's not, it doesn't really sort of, I don't think that it's just in our sort of life, that's not necessarily what we're sort of like drawn to. But then there's also the financial realities of that. It's like, okay, if you're not having kids, you can do things in a slightly different way. Or it's like there's maybe not the— we don't have the pressure of having to worry about school fees or all of these sorts of things. So it's like, that's where I think that sometimes it can get confusing for people because like, why is that person not worrying about this? Or why are they worrying about that? Or what's happening over here? Like, everyone is so different, let alone like people just receiving cash from family. It's just like inheritance or just like, you know, getting you know, bits and bits, like everyone's on a different path in that regard. And so that, I guess the risk is that you can't, I think I was getting like, not depressed, but just like looking on real estate, it's like, how the fuck do you ever, like how, like what's going to happen to be able to get that? And I go through two different thoughts. One is— Bank robbery? Yeah, no, OnlyFans, no, the, Where I go— are there any duos on OnlyFans? Could we set up? There would definitely be. Is Josh and Tommy available on OnlyFans? SlappyDuo69. Well, maybe it'll be Tommy and Josh because you'll be doing more of the work. But the, um— oh my God, there is, um, no, but no, so where I go is I go down two paths. One path is is it's like detachment. Fucking love the life that I have. I'm comfortable now. Fucking internet is great. We're close to things. It's great. I can see the fucking city from my apartment. It feels nice. Um, then there's the other bit where it's like, no, I need to print out a photo of the fucking big property that I want. I need to fucking have it there, and I need to be working to it. But I'm like You just see that happen so many times. And then the other thing too, this is what else I do. I'll watch like an Architect's Digest or whatever, or just any of like any shows where it's like showing around a house. And I just look at these people, I'm like, fuck, you know what? I reckon I could be happier in that house than they are. Yeah, look at them. Yeah, just like they're so unhappy. Fuckheads don't know what's going on. Like, if I had that house, I'd be chilling out, be fucking great. Do you know what I mean?

Tommy: Oh, 100%. And over the weekend, I found myself feeling— I found myself feeling restless, unsettled, which can cause, you know, slight anxiety. It's like, could be irritable, you know, expressing itself as like you're irritable or on edge. And it was because I was feeling like I needed to get stuff done to take me forward. But I think it's like, but then when I thought about it, I didn't have anything really to do. And that's the trap of someone who's trying to develop a, build a business or something. It's like you could, one school of thought could be there is always something to do. And so, but the trap with the there is always something to do mindset is that you can always feel like you're not doing something because you should be. And then that feeling of, you know, oh, I've got to keep going. And so maybe one of the traps of putting up, you know, say if you— we've talked about, you know, this, this mission of 10 years and it's around, you know, we're not looking to sort of do this big sell, you know, sellout of the show, like a buyout from somebody to come in and sweep it away. Like, but then you could see how if you did have that on your mind, you might get close to doing it, but you will also feel like you're not there yet because you're trying. Yeah, yeah.

Josh: And so, yeah, it's just, it's, it's, um, yeah, I wonder if that's the prize that you really want to be going after.

Tommy: I mean, well, Yeah, I mean, putting that photo of a house up, yeah, maybe it will get closer. Maybe— here we go, don't start there.

Josh: Corkboard, where the fuck am I putting it?

Tommy: Yeah, I mean, there is a version of— so circling back to that, and index cards, and that feeling of, you know, needing something to do, it can be dropped when you can realise that it's not— it doesn't really matter, there's nothing to do. Even though there could be something to do, you can just stop that.

Josh: Isn't that the paradox though of the whole thing where it's like, because we look at people that, that have that mindset and we can be like, they're not taking full advantage of their life. But then there's the other version where it's like, if you are doing stuff and, uh, having a purpose and getting fulfilled, but you aren't attached to all these other things, that can be super beneficial. So I think that that's like the, the nuance that we're talking about, is it's like detachment while still having purpose. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Tommy: And when it's like people who are working on themselves and get themselves in a great place, and then they find themselves in a relationship, but before they were trying to look for a relationship without looking at looking after themselves. And so there is a version of contentment in the moment that gets you to the place that you felt like you were just grinding for previously. Work is still, you know, required, right, on all these things, but you can— it can be a bit more peaceful. The journey doesn't have to be as fucking anxiety-producing. That's what—

Josh: yeah, I think that, that— yeah, there's a, um, but then there's moments Um, like, uh, Jason Fried, who wrote It Doesn't Have to Be Crazy at Work, watching a, yeah, an interview with him. I love him. Uh, yeah, he was saying, um, there's actually a great video, uh, he did— he, he, I don't know if he still does, but he wrote a column for Inc. magazine, and there's a video on YouTube. They've got like an account for Basecamp. They haven't updated in about a year. But he records himself writing the article and talking through the whole process. So it goes for about 40 minutes, 35 minutes or whatever, 40 minutes. And, um, it's his screen and the video and just audio, and he's crafting it all. It's really great. But one of the things I was thinking about is, so he has a product called hey.com, which is, you know, trying to revolutionise or change the way we use email. Um, and he— I don't know if it was in the interview I sent you, but it was— he spent the last 2 weeks just like hectic with all of this stuff and trying to make it work and do all that sort of thing. It's like, there are moments— even the people who it's like, it doesn't have to be crazy at work, he wrote books about it. Yeah, yeah. And, you know, experience times where if you're working on something that is of value if you're pushing the limits. It is hard sometimes. Yeah, and, and I, I think that it has to—

Tommy: like, most things require some level of hard work at some point. It doesn't mean it's all the time, but yeah, like that guy was saying, he's, you know, you launch something and it's going to be hectic. And so if you could look at then this period, it's like, are you up for it? I think that's the thing. Are you up for getting through a small period of time where it is hard?

Josh: But sometimes you sometimes feel like the, the hamster wheel, like, so the hamster wheel, like, they are both a version of a hamster wheel, but one of them, it, yeah, it's, it's, it is that thing that we've said the other day is it's not linear. It's like, it's, um, and it's very hard to understand if you're making progress in some ways.

Tommy: Yeah. Yeah. One thing that came to mind, I still haven't do it, but I still haven't done it, but I legitimately felt better when I came to this conclusion of what I could do when I was feeling a bit anxious about, you know, what I needed to do was stopping and writing out all the things I've achieved over the last year and how far I've come. And it's like funny, I should, I will do it today. But the perspective shift of, I even just started thinking about a few of the things how far we've come. And then I was like, oh, I feel better. I feel less like I'm needing to go and do something over my weekend because the trap is that you just, you're so focused Monday to Friday. It's like, it's a bit silly to think that it just stops on Saturday and Sunday where, you know, you get fired up, you almost get clarity. You get clarity to work out what else could be done.

Josh: But I guess I get playful and when I get playful, like it's a sort of a, So, so I think that I end up like opening my eyes to more possibilities. So I'm like, oh, what else? What else? And so I'm like constantly— so fucking, I, um, got a subscription to Skillshare and I did like 2 hours of motion graphics training on like After Effects. I'm like, okay, like what else? I'm like, oh, they were doing stuff about design. It's like I was like, oh yeah, fucking sick. And that was like Saturday night. I'm like, you know what, yeah, we like— I want to like— I want to explore this design stuff more. So I'm on Dribbble, I'm doing all that sort of stuff. And then yeah, it's— yeah, there's definitely progress. So for instance, you need that. So I've definitely probably 3 weeks ago went through a very clear detachment phase where I'm like, I'm not playing any games, I'm just fucking sitting back and just enjoying stuff. But I think potentially I'm so enticed by the other things that I do enjoy. I do enjoy doing this, that like I do enjoy learning these things. And so when I discover something that I haven't yet learned, I'm constantly like, oh, what? Like I then fucking found iOS development, like learning Swift. Like, I was like, fuck. I sent it to Seth. I'm like, should I get this?

Tommy: You sent me the beta version of the app you've created over the weekend. That was good, mate.

Josh: Well, I was literally like, maybe I get it. Maybe we should build an app. Maybe I could. Yeah, maybe I could do that. But I did lots of writing. I wrote like fucking 3,000 words on the weekend and it felt very productive.

Tommy: Fuck, I don't know how he fitted that in. It's a good effort.

Josh: It's, uh, the fucking Drafts is great.

Tommy: Like, I, um— It's not Drafts, dude. It's you. Don't fucking give it over to an app.

Josh: No, but just the, um, the mindfulness practise of just having the, uh, being able to take notes. And what I've done is I've made the, the text size on my computer fucking huge. It almost looks like a teleprompter. And I'm just like— and I get through, you know, 500, 600, 700 words in a sitting very easily, like writing out like full-blown articles or bits and pieces. So, it is cool. I wanted to tell a quick storey about the— when you're talking about the gambling friend. I have a friend who was really into gambling, sports type stuff. And he had a day— actually, he had a job that was like shift-based. It was just sort of a casual style job. And, you know, been catching up with him a bunch. And this is going back a few years. I said to him, oh, how— I would ask him how's the job going and, you know, tell storeys and all that sort of thing. Anyway, one day I caught up with him and he's like, hey, I have something to say. I don't actually work at blah blah anymore, and I haven't for the past year. He's like, so I won over $100,000 on this, like, a gambling thing. Like, he did like, what's it called when you do 3 things or 4 things? Multi-bet. So he had a big multi, and so he goes, and so since then I've been a professional gambler. And so my family doesn't know, like, I haven't— like, so he, uh, he was living with his fam, like his, uh, parents, and, um, but he didn't, um, he, he wouldn't— like, he didn't tell them that he was doing this. So he would actually leave, like, because he was close to the family, he would have to like leave the house and be like, oh, going off to work. But he, he couldn't bring himself to tell them that he'd quit his job to do this.

Tommy: Professional gambler, was he still wearing the uniform walking out the door?

Josh: That's a good question. I bet he did. I bet he did.

Tommy: Fuck. I mean, the— there's a few things. It's hard when you can't be honest. There's an energy that it produces, definitely, within, you know, your, your world and your aura, especially around gambling. Seems like it's exactly And so, and where is he today? I guess that's the question.

Josh: Yeah, I don't know how he's going with his, with his gambling. Yeah, but, um, yeah, no, I wonder.

Tommy: Yeah, I wonder, was it— I mean, it's interesting because people look at, um, poker players probably with less, less of a sort of negative view than someone who is a professional gambler who's just working out doing multi-bets all day.

Josh: Well, so it looked legit, like he had crazy spreadsheets and all of that. Like, you can get right into it, right? Yeah, I guess. Oh yeah, I guess the point is, is it's— if sports his thing, if he's really good at sport, like, it's not too dissimilar to the share market or, you know, exactly.

Tommy: There's an interest level to understand how it's all happening. There's a difference between someone who's just got an addiction down the TAB as soon as it opens to put money on whatever they think He was actually, um, he was banned from all the main, the main ones because he was winning so much.

Josh: Really? Yeah, so they do that. They'll just fucking ban, like Sportsbet, all that. They'll just ban you. Too good.

Tommy: I mean, how do you go, just, just quickly, um, all the stuff you do over the weekend and then integrating back into the realities of a business? And we need to have a finance chat at 10:30 this morning with our accountant to understand the business. How do you go just in terms of casting your thoughts in a different way. Because I, you know, I feel the same. I sometimes go, what would it look like to be really sort of— to be doing something that's less— that's sort of less chaotic? It's just like, think about you just working on some animation and design as Josh Janson by himself. It's like you could create a really slow, slow business that's, that's slow in like everything. It's just Slow being positive, slow being less—

Josh: Like the deep work stuff. Yeah, exactly.

Tommy: You could do that tomorrow. You could do it. And but what it requires is none of the stuff we're doing. And so how do you balance the two when you go deep into a world and then have to come back to another?

Josh: Yeah, I was thinking about that. I think it's, um, so it's not have— it's, it's, it's doing things that will move you forward. But so for instance, it's not, um, so I think about like the office, like I think that an office space is like a house. It, for a lot of people, it represents something. So it's like it represents the story. So for me, an office where I've talked about like the fucking, the next office with 50 metres of corkboard and all that sort of thing, it represents collaboration. It represents that we've, we've hit certain uh, milestones in regards to revenue, all of that sort of thing. Um, but then there is, there is the version where, um, yeah, creating a version that is less intense, uh, but will, um, yeah. And so that's why I'm— that's what I guess I'm trying to uncover at the moment is um, you know, you like, you go into the passive income thing. It's not even passive income that what, what we're seeking necessarily. Um, we still do the show every day and we do, we've got other podcasts coming out, like all of that sort of stuff. And so I think it's about, uh, yeah, yeah, what have I, what have I taken out of it? I think that it's, you're doing So where I landed on yesterday was it was like, okay, take all of that energy and just do it on one specific project. Do it on that project, see it to fruition. And when I say to fruition, it's like to launch. And that launch is like, you're only talking like 4 weeks of your life where it's like getting it to a point and then put the systems processes in place that then you, you can remove the intensity and let all of your work done. Like, uh, you know, let your work sort of, um, do the job for you. Um, like, uh, I was reading The Messy Middle, uh, which is a great book, and they had a bit about, um, Jeff Bezos in the early days of Amazon. And they had a really big quarter, and he made a really strong point to say that, um, this, this strong quarter isn't from the work that we did this quarter. This performance happened 3 years ago, all the seeds that we're planting. And so I think that the friction that we sometimes feel is we are constantly planting seeds. We, we have so many crops that we're sort of working on, and we haven't yet properly— like, you see, you see that the work that we did at the start of the year or whatever, which has helped us today, or things like that. And so all of the stuff that we have done during this time, next year we'll be like, man, isn't it just crazy? Like, it will feel like luck, or it'll feel like— but we put in a fuck tonne of work right now behind the scenes to get it to a place Um, it's like SEO, it's like, uh, Full Stack Films. If you think about it, it's like, think about how many leads come in, how many people wanting video production services. That was work that was done fucking 5 years ago. That was obsessing with SEO and building that website and doing that 5 years ago. And so if, like, if you imagine that and then think about all of the other things we're building now, think about what it will then mean on the other side. I think that that's part of what I've been thinking about.

Tommy: Is it perspective that you're— you're— the— the— that you can pull and put into place now, which is what we're doing now means something in the future whether we feel it now or not? So when I feel today like I'm not being productive based on having to do this thing—

Josh: yeah, well, you could say— so you could say like, let's, um, let's bring less intensity. So you could be like, let's bring less intensity, uh, but like, we will feel that eventually. Like, there will become a point where we have a bunch of realities that we need to work on. And so for me, I guess it's like part of it's just hedging, hedging our bets. So it's when it gets to that point, it's like a really easy transition And so you can, you know, rather than cramming at the last week that you have to do something, if you do bit by bit by bit by bit. And so, yeah, I think it's a hard one because I understand that for like, for some it's just anxiety-inducing and you just need to be in survival mode and just like survive. But then for me, I think, um, especially I think because I'm not fucking going out and walking, so like I want to do something. I'm not someone that's going to binge, like I don't binge TV series or anything, like I can watch 2 or 3, but it's like I can binge, um, I could do 4 hours of tutorials or training and that's like because I'm like actively I've got my computer and I'm doing stuff. Does that make sense?

Tommy: Yeah, I mean, it all— that's— I think everything that you do definitely has that effect of coming into the, um, the time, the, the important stuff that we're doing.

Josh: So even though it's just— do I create anxiety? Do I— did you have the weekends that you have nowadays? Did you have them before you're working with me? Um, Oh, the weekends.

Tommy: I mean, there's not much of a weekend nowadays at this moment, but, um, no, it's definitely the show. It's definitely the, the level of commitment we have to it, record, you know, removes some other stuff. But that's where it's like, it's not an excuse because you need to then find it. So it's finding— if we create one habit over here, which is the, the show, showing up to do that, the business It's a everyday thing. And so you're always thinking about stuff around what needs to go into the show, what needs to go into the business. It's definitely a different life to what I had previously. But then I also think back, I'm like, what the fuck was I doing? Like, I feel like I'm utilising my time way more now than I ever have. And what was I doing back then? Was I being lazy? Like, I think so. You can always look back.

Josh: Can I just quickly get the Messy Middle. I, I underlined a few points. I feel like it's a great way to end. I'm just gonna go get it.

Tommy: Go get it. Just to cheque in, uh, currently 24th of August, guys. It's, uh, yeah, 9:22 AM here in Melbourne. Josh is just going to get the book that he's been reading. This is good. Oh, coffee. Got it. Okay, he's got it.

Josh: Here we go. So this is, um, it's The Messy Middle by a guy named Scott, uh, uh, Belsky. I think Scott, uh, created Behance, which was bought by Adobe. So, um, there's some really good stuff in here.

Tommy: And so this is what you're reading over the weekend?

Josh: Yep, so it's specifically around— here we go. So these are all the bits that I underlined. Uh, while many people claim to value long-term moves, few people have the patience. Curiosity is the fuel you need to play the long game. When you're genuine— genuinely curious about something, you're less likely to measure productivity in a traditional way. The long game gets even harder when others get involved. If you're really playing the long game and turning down immediate opportunities, people will probably start, start to scratch their heads. The seeds you're planting— long-term relationships, curiosity-driven exploration, thought experiments— are less likely to be supported by others both socially and financially. And then in a talk he gave at the Aspen Institute in 2009, Amazon founder Jeff Bezos, uh, said, uh, invention requires a long-term willingness to be misunderstood. Um, and then outside the quote they said, uh, to sustain yourself over this time, you can't look for accolades and you can't rely I'm being understood.

Tommy: I love it. And then it's, I guess, the tricky bit is being misunderstood has a real feeling behind it. And so then you're really having to use your mind to say, I feel that feeling of being misunderstood. It makes me feel like shit. But there is another version of I believe in what I'm doing. Regardless of what other people are, how they're reacting. And, and then there's the reality that if you can be fucking wrong, I mean, so there are—

Josh: so the, the, the one with, um, uh, Jason Fried's, uh, business partner, uh, was it DHH, uh, is his nickname, uh, David, uh, Heinmeier Hansson, uh, he, he said that, uh, Facebook wasn't going to become anything. He was, he was very wrong about that. Yeah. Um, but I mean, the thing is, the thing is that I think a part of it, reading this type of stuff, um, I think about, uh, when— so going back, when was it, 2013? So 7 years ago at Southern Cross Austereo when they were talking about a new Spotify competitor. It was called Songle, and the, um, one of the executives stood up to their content team and did a big presentation. And, um, they talked about they were doing visual ads and all this sort of thing. They were going to be doing exclusive content. And I just asked all these questions, and I just, I never felt like, um, it was like, it seemed like such a, uh a weird move based on, uh, Songle was a product called Anubis. Like, I knew all of this information about the product before it got into SEA's hands. So they'd done an acquisition or whatever, and I remember when I was, you know, I was only 23 at the time, and I was questioning that. And then I think about like even— and so that ended up shitting the bed, going, you know, not really going anywhere. And then I think, and that was going to be the fucking Spotify killer, you know, how's that turned out? But then you look at, say, what's happened with all of the regional breakfast shows. And I think about thinking, like, being in radio and being like, how is this all working? Like, this doesn't make sense. This is all going this way. There is all of this opportunity. And they don't— and so the thing was that, like, the instinct, the intuition was right. Uh, like, big companies are wrong right now. And so you can complain, or you can sort of point it out, talk about it, or you can do— I think what we're trying to do is it's like, do something else. Like, do the version— like, actually use that to be productive and to do the thing that we think will be the long-term game.

Tommy: Yeah, and, and what's clear for other people though, because they're seeing big businesses doing it a different way, they think you're wrong. Because if, if you can see other people doing something, you're like, yeah, that probably is more likely the thing that's working than what you guys over here are trying to have a crack at.

Josh: The misunderstood thing is very powerful. I think that that is why most people don't do like the big thing. Like, so when I push back on the podcast ranker and like, you could read like, these people were like, I was misunderstood based on what I was saying, where people thought that it was sour grapes based on us not being in the ranker or something. It's like, we could be in the ranker tomorrow if we wanted to, but it's gonna pay. Exactly. And so it is, um, it's an interesting area, but if you can get past that, if you can be very sort of clear in your conviction, which is hard because there's so much ambiguity. You can hear us just talking about everything from what we want to do personally, buying a house. I wanted to buy a fucking barbecue, and then I measured it up in our balcony. I'm like, fuck, it's gonna go to the door, so I'm not— I'd have to have the fucking apartment door open to stand at the barbecue, which seems dangerous and impractical. And then so that's why I'm fucking looking at places I'm like, well, we're going to have to fucking move so I can fit this barbecue.

Tommy: Fuck yeah, I need an acre because I can't get me barbie on the balcony.

Josh: It's understood. So anyway, The Messy Middle, great, great book. It's got like a lot of different sort of case studies from different entrepreneurs. He wrote the book Making Ideas Happen as well. Yeah, but it's like, it's an easy read.

Tommy: I love it. Sounds very interesting.

Josh: And I had a card, uh, I'd, uh, put a previous, like, a birthday card as a bookmark, which, um, it was from mum and dad. It says, oh, come on, it's easy, a film, two words. And it's, um, he's got his, uh, it's a bear, he's got his cock out. And, um, the, the caption underneath says, despite his best efforts, nobody guessed Free Willy. And so that was, that was my, um, let's see how old I was turning out. See if it says— that's so funny. That doesn't say— that's so funny. All right, enjoy the rest of your day, everyone. Uh, I hope you're all staying safe. Well, let me— let us know. Hi@thedailytalkshow.com. Should we do that paper trading thing? Should we set up some sort of social network, or is it just going to give us a lot of pain and annoyance?

Tommy: Yeah, I don't think so. Calvin's already flagged that half of the people in his finance course are losing money, and they're finance people.

Josh: Well, you know, no, you don't— but you don't need to be fine, you just need to be good fucking— just need to know the tech, you know? Maybe.

Tommy: Classic. All right guys, have a good one.

Josh: See you tomorrow. See you day. Bye bye.