Media & Localism

Tommy: It's The Daily Talk Show, episode 827.

Josh: What's happening, guys? What's going on? How are we?

Tommy: You sound a little quiet.

Josh: I was kind of just, you know, easing into the episode. I can get fired up, mate. I am fired up.

Tommy: What are you fired up about?

Josh: Um, I'm fired up about, uh, I just saw It's probably the only silly purchase I would consider making. Aldi have just dropped a new— they call it the— it's been dubbed the dupe of Apple, the $40 dupe of Apple. So, you know, it's like almost like they've ripped off and done their own version. Can you guess what a $40 item from Aldi could be?

Tommy: Definitely, it's the AirPods.

Josh: I did think that, and I— that's why I jumped on. Wrong, wrong. Give me another guess.

Tommy: All right, let me have one more guess.

Josh: Why not?

Tommy: Yeah, 40. So dupe— I only learned about dupe the other day. Dupe. So, uh, Toni mentioned it in her podcast, then Bree bought a candle. Things are going very poorly here, we're having to buy dupe fragrances now. But the—

Josh: what is dupe fragrance?

Tommy: Well, it's so, uh, we get, uh, Le Labo, uh, fragrance or like candles, right? Oh, maybe it's not Le Labo, it's some fucking Diptique or some shit. Anyway, okay, I'm not—

Josh: I'm not great.

Tommy: I just know I like them. And, uh, we have a friend that normally is in retail and gets us a very, very tidy discount. Talking 40— tidy— talking 40%. But, um, because of all—

Josh: what is the percentage? What's the percentage where it becomes tidy?

Tommy: Just give us just, uh, over the parameters of tidy.

Josh: Yeah, that's tidy.

Tommy: Don't you agree?

Josh: Yeah, definitely. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like 10%, you're like, fuck, all right. 20, moving up, up.

Tommy: 25% is big. That's a going out of business sale. And so Bree was like, we're running out of the candle. I don't really want to spend like the full price of the candles, like fucking $170 or something like that.

Josh: Yeah, I don't know exactly. Yeah, yeah, something like that.

Tommy: Ridiculous.

Josh: You know you don't have kids when you're buying candles that expensive.

Tommy: Exactly. And so we're like, we even, for us, it's even a bit like, we don't need, we don't need that in these times. So yeah, we found a dupe. There's some dupe fragrance which I don't completely understand, but she was like— I was like, what? I've never heard of dupe. And she's like, oh, it's like a, it's like a copy. It's like it smells exactly the same and it has a better throw than the other one.

Josh: Yeah. And is it duplicate? Is it just saying we've like duplicated something and it's a version of it, but it's not the original version. I reckon that's what it means.

Tommy: Let's have a look.

Josh: I would never throw that into a sentence ever in my life. You know, there's a bunch of those words that you read on paper, but anyone who uses them— not dupe, but other ones that you're just like, fucking, who uses that?

Tommy: Well, because I said to Bree, I'm like, oh, uh, dupe. Isn't dupe what I used to wear? It's like, no, that's dupe jump.

Josh: That's, that's the fragrance.

Tommy: Fragrance.

Josh: The fragrance.

Tommy: I'm just Um, I'm trying to define dupe on Google for you.

Josh: It doesn't even want to define it, but can you guess again?

Tommy: Oh, here you go. Yeah, it's, it's here. Um, it's, uh, to deceive or trick.

Josh: Okay, well, there's definitely— okay, so they're not, they're not exactly just— the, this, the, the market stall that sells the fake FUBU jacket is definitely duping people. Fubu or, you know, Helly Hansen. Those— there was like a bunch of brands back in the day that were the Echo, Echo jacket.

Tommy: Yeah.

Josh: And so there was a— there's like— it goes— they probably do it now with—

Tommy: when you said Echo jacket, then that could be Echo jacket.

Josh: No, we can't, because Echo sold jackets and it'd be like saying, uh, River. River's a great name, but not with jacket. River jacket, it's like, fucking, all right, mate, you're off to do a bit of bloody You know, a bit of rowing in the river. Okay, last guess. What is it? What are Aldi selling? What's their dupe?

Tommy: MacBook Pro. No, I don't know.

Josh: Nah, nah. It's a knockoff smartwatch.

Tommy: Smartwatch.

Josh: Smartwatch.

Tommy: Smartwatch.

Josh: It looks good, too. It looks good. Like, I reckon if I replace the band that it came with, because it's got like these green dots on the band, these holes through it that you can see this green yucky color. Anyway, it comes with its own charging dock, $39.99. I saw last Saturday because they— doesn't even have one.

Tommy: What, like, what, like, is it—

Josh: no, I know what's on it. Yeah, mate, I don't know, but should I get one? It says it can connect to your smartphone using Bluetooth and receive call and message notifications as well as play your music. Like, if that's tapping into your your Apple phone. I mean, that's at that point, it is, it's really fucking getting sexist.

Tommy: You can say it's an Apple Watch. It's an Apple Watch.

Josh: Yeah, well, it is. It's going to annoy me as much as yours one does you. And just as you pull it up, you and Jess Lucas, you're both, you know, offenders of that. So I was at, I was driving past the local Audi on Saturday Mate, 100 people, 100-meter line. There's still like, because it's now socially distanced, it's like extends the line out. So, there might be the same amount of people, but still people in the time of stage 4 lockdown are making sure they're getting their, you know, their hit. Their hit.

Tommy: So, when you say hit, okay, it's a, it's, they're not literally lining up for the—

Josh: Heroin.

Tommy: The dupe watch.

Josh: Do they say dupe on it? Is it a horse bargain? This is a news.com.au article. Audi sells $40 dupe of Apple Samsung smartwatch in Father's Day sale. And so it is a—

Tommy: Father's designed for Father's Day. Oh, the man, that would just sort of—

Josh: it's like, you know, you search for any reason to do what, you know, come up with a name for a social media post on whatever day whether it's your birthday. Let's find someone's birthday. Met a guy once, it was his birthday, we're posting about it today. Seth Godin, it's your birthday, we're posting about you. You just want an excuse to sell shit. And so what would a sale be today if we were to go on sale for something? It's Wednesday the 20th of August— sorry, it's Thursday the 20th of August. Anything, anything you'd like to sort of— is it special?

Tommy: You'd like to— yeah, let me have a think. I would go, I would go to something being spring's coming, you know, you know, the Daily Talk Show t-shirt, get ready for spring.

Josh: Oh, that's right, that is good. I mean, my birthday is 1st of September, which is not too far away.

Tommy: September 1st. I always get confused between the 5th and the 1st. I don't know why, but it's the 1st of September, isn't it?

Josh: First, mate.

Tommy: When does Father's Day— when's that?

Josh: What day? It'll be that Sunday. So Tuesday is my birthday. Sunday is Father's Day.

Tommy: And you're turning 32?

Josh: 32, yeah. I could not give a shit. You know, it's— I really don't care. I cared about my 30th, and I think you should too. It's a nice sort of milestone.

Tommy: Yeah.

Josh: But 32, I ain't got time for you.

Tommy: What do you want to do? I like that. 32, I ain't got time for you. Um, what do you want to do for your 40th?

Josh: Oh, 40th. Yeah, that's a big one.

Tommy: Can I guess? I feel like you'd be the kind of guy to be like, look, we've organised a boat in Greece and we're, you know, 6 friends, we're all going to go and we're going to celebrate your 40th on a yacht or a boat or something.

Josh: Oh, dude, that would be amazing. Yeah, see, I would like that. There's, um, who's paying?

Tommy: Who's paying? I mean, at that point, we're doing well. Yeah, you'll be cashed up, maybe.

Josh: To be honest, I said to Amy the other day, I was like, to be honest, after the Daily Talk Show, because they get the 10-year plan, so it's like another 8 years, another 7 and a bit years. I was like, to be honest, I think I'm done then. Yeah, like I'm— I think I'm packing it up. Like, wouldn't mind like my own home studio setup where I just sort of do a little— do a few bits and pieces, but I'm not doing much. So we got— I've got 7 years to make that happen. It's not retirement. I won't say retirement, but if you were to put a label on it, it's retirement.

Tommy: Yeah, no, it would just be— no, be nice to be able to be completely in control of your time.

Josh: Exactly. And so, I mean, how do you make that happen? If that's— because it's— I think it's like the end goal of I want to retire with all this money is probably like, it's not driving you to do something fucked up.

Tommy: How many people do we know that have heaps of cash? It's like, it's not that— like, they're still— and that's probably why they do— they are so successful because they're still working and doing all that. Like, is that a bit of a povo mindset? I don't know, because I have the same one. I have this thought of, you know, well, not retiring. I don't have an interest in retiring. It's about just doing the shit that I like.

Josh: Exactly, exactly. And I look at friends in their 40s that run businesses and there's a lot of stress that they've got, you know. If you— I mean, owning a tech business that's sort of doing well or, or not, and you're trying to make it do well, and there's a lot that goes— comes with that. And so I don't know. It's, it's, um, easier to say what we're saying than to actually create something that allows you to do that at 40. But I feel like we're, you know, giving it a good crack.

Tommy: Yeah, uh, Thursdays are the day that I have on social media.

Josh: Yeah, so what time did you download the apps?

Tommy: Uh, 6:15.

Josh: I saw, I jumped on and I saw some likes happening. I saw some responses to a few people that had come in overnight, and boy I knew it was you.

Tommy: Yeah, yeah. So no, but my eyes are already— my eyes are burning.

Josh: Are they?

Tommy: Like, it's just the scroll and the— but I was— I then watched a video of, um, Dill Takes Photos, who we've had on the show. He did a video about why social media isn't that bad. And so, yeah, isn't that bad. It's like, you know, social media gets a bad rap.

Josh: And, um, okay, and what's— I mean, this is obviously sort of jumps out at you in that moment. Because of, you know, he's just downloaded again and it's Thursday. What's the, what's the take? What's just like the angle?

Tommy: Connecting with people. All right, so think about it this way, uh, Matt D'Avella, we would never have met if it wasn't for social media. Like, social media, that was the Twitter thing and him coming to Melbourne and all that sort of thing that made that happen a few years ago. Think about how many, like, there's so many examples of that. Think about how many friends that we have that were that started through social media. Yeah, so international thing, I think, like, for me, I feel like I've got a fair few friends that are overseas, and I feel like social media is great for that.

Josh: Yeah, it keeps you tapped in, tapped into them. So Brad Blanks probably knows what we're up to right now. He's living over in New York, uh, and, and you know what people are up to just at a glance. And so that's one side of it.

Tommy: I feel like doing the ring around. Should I just try and call Brad Blanks right now, see what he's up to?

Josh: What time is it in New York?

Tommy: I think it should be fine.

Josh: New York, hang on here, let me just type.

Tommy: No, it's definitely— it would be like 5 PM at the latest.

Josh: Yeah, what's that, international? Yeah, this is 6:44 PM.

Tommy: Okay, he might be just having dinner with a family. Dinner.

Josh: Do you reckon he knows it's you calling?

Tommy: Yeah, yeah.

Josh: I want to understand his habits, his social media habits.

Tommy: I mean, it would— I feel like it would be— if he answers, I mean, I probably wouldn't answer. What the fuck is Justin doing now? It's just FaceTime unavailable. Helpful. No, but see, isn't it just so nice having people all around the world that can ignore your calls? It's a beautiful thing.

Josh: I can, I can call anyone around the world. I'll get it, it'll probably be ignored.

Tommy: Um, yeah, no, but no, so there is that nice thing with social media, you know, being able to connect.

Josh: Well, of course. I mean, this is you sort of grappling with your addiction right now, and so it is. I mean, in moderation, sugar is okay. Yeah, it's not the end of you, but if you fall off a cliff every time you have it, then that's another conversation. It is interesting. So I've been looking after the Big Media Company Instagram account, just posting and getting some of our old content we hadn't populated. And so I've been having some fun there, creating some templates and branding stuff. And when you're forced to sort of just— I, I, it's weird because I've never had this where I'm just in it, but I'm not really in it. I feel like I'm just getting stuff out there, and then it's, it's definitely creating, uh, less of a barrier for any other social media stuff that I do. So posting— and so my wife, I think, spends a lot of time on one post and starts, but she also is the person that does it in a text message where she'll spend quite— she needs, like, it's, you know, she's— texting isn't her strong suit. She would rather a phone conversation for 3 hours, and she'll and she would thrive. And so you have your thing, right? And so I think it's— but that's not to say that it can't be less of a pain than what it is already. And so for someone like me, so that's the writing bit.

Tommy: Yeah, it can be a good way of becoming a better writer as well, synthesising your thoughts.

Josh: Oh, definitely. I mean, that's— and then, I mean, it's— it is But then it's like looking at strengths, right? What is, what is your strength? And then what do you— because if, if you have a strength that you think it— well, if you think it's your strength but then you're not using that strength, then that's probably something you need to take stock of to spend more time in the thing that you were, you know, like if you're not doing anything but your strength is talking.

Tommy: Yeah.

Josh: And then you're focusing all your time on trying to be the text person. And then that's really painful. It's like you could be the— you could actually be the, the call person that just books in chats with a bunch of people. And so rather than playing in the game of painful responding to text because that's how everyone else does it, and then you've got to be okay with that.

Tommy: But I guess there's something in, um, yeah, there's the focus on your strengths element, but then there's also— like, I was thinking about it the other, other day uh, within, within business, there's not— there's, there's not really an opportunity for people who are far along in their career to make big leaps in regards to, like, from a training perspective, right? So it's like there's small pivots, there might be a workshop here and there that they go to, but it's not like fundamentally changing what they do. So I was thinking about it's like, look at someone like, um, Jess or even GB. Uh, it's like, uh, GB is an editor. That's his strength. That's what he's, he's really comfortable with. The, the podcast stuff for him is a bit harder. It's not, doesn't necessarily come natural. He has to do a lot of preparation. And the thing is, it's like, I can see the appeal in just being like 'Oh, that's your lane, you're the editor, focus on that.' But I feel like the growth is in actually getting people to get good at those other things. So if he can be an editor and then be a fucking sick podcaster, imagine that combo for him. And then think about Jess, and it's like, if, if you can produce, if you can organise stuff, but then also run your own show, or yeah, be on air That's like a massive win, don't you think?

Josh: Yeah, maybe the, the, the— maybe the confusion comes when you're doing something else that isn't your strength, thinking it's going to become your biggest strength, when that isn't necessarily the end game. You will, you will evolve individually, and there'll be learnings you take away, and you will be more competent and all these things, but It's like if I wanted to, I'm not going to become a fucking athlete, but I can get fit as fuck and be an average athlete. No, but then, and then does that mean that I've failed because I'm not, you know, it doesn't become this ultimate strength of mine, but I've definitely, you know, it's everything that comes from it. It's the reward. And that's another thing, not the, imagine the thing that is the strength for you isn't the thing that brings you fulfilment or joy. Or, you know, makes you feel whole. But then the thing that's really tough gives you ultimate fulfillment, but you're never going to be the best at it. And so we live in this society where we— everyone wants to be the absolute best because what comes with being the best is accolades, you know, uh, reaffirmation from people around you. You know, like, it's— you know what, it's fucking great to be really good at something. But it's also when people like—

Tommy: but the thing is that the finite game— so you can be really good at something but you don't have to be world-class. Like, the thing to consider with— it's like, uh, people who go to film school and then their first thought is that they want to go to Hollywood. There is— there's a huge spectrum of other things that you could do. And if you mix and match and sort of create a different— like, different skills. So to say, taking a filmmaker And then, uh, um, someone also— imagine like a scientist. Imagine you do a degree, like a degree in science or whatever, and then you become a filmmaker, and then you can do stuff on climate change. Like, the— I think that the exciting thing is, is in the mixing and matching of different things. And I feel potentially that the focus on your strength bit means that we don't end up having a really fulfilled life because we— because that one thing that we're good at happened based on— so you had a core, but like, so say if you take like presenting, you're good at presenting, uh, on camera. If that was a moment in time where you thought, fuck, I'm— I want to do this, you weren't good at it at that time when you started it. And then you got better. And so the consideration is, it's like, uh, do we have to rely on the thing that we thought that we wanted to do fucking 15 years ago?

Josh: Absolutely not. Because, you know, when I became an even better presenter— and I'm not— and I don't even see myself as a presenter, it's like, uh, being more comfortable on camera is probably a better way of looking at it. Was when I did the thing that I didn't feel I was great at or was my strength, which was radio. Radio. Like, I was like, I hate my voice, I hate this, like, I'm not good at that. I don't— like, I never identified myself as like someone who, you know, when I'm at the fucking dinner table, I'm the one telling the story. Like, I never thought I was that guy. I thought I was—

Tommy: you were fit as fuck.

Josh: Yeah, yeah. No, I was like an athlete, but I'm fit as fuck. Full of life.

Tommy: Full of life. Fit as fuck.

Josh: And Tommy Jacket, maybe. Yeah, but you know how you see like, oh mate, this person could tell a great story. I never felt that, that way. My push was to do the presenting, which got me into storytelling. And then you realise you might have like a somewhat of a natural ability to tell a storey or understand story. And then it's the executing of, you know, the repetition of doing that storytelling, which came at the radio level. So when I started doing radio, I learned how to be more articulate. I learned like, it's like slowing down my mind versus my words. And so I almost was like just a second ahead of what I was saying so I could be in the moment and understand what I was saying. And at that point, I was able to be more present on camera and not be so stressed. Because I was like, I got this into my head because I'm a little bit ahead. And so it's— but it's— it was just cohesion between it. And so that wouldn't have got to that if I didn't lean into this thing that was super uncomfortable, which was being on radio.

Tommy: Do you have us actually on the radio thing? Very quickly, there was the industry article saying that a bunch of Regional Radio talent, uh, they got an email saying, you know, expect the worst today potentially in regards to like— it sounds like redundancies or something like that. Can you explain what is, what is Regional Radio in Australia? Like, how does it work? How did you end up there? What's the— like, is it a contract? How did— what's the deal?

Josh: I don't know. It's, it's interesting because I, I had no idea about it until I sort of stepped in that door of radio. And then I realised that a big company that owns most of the regional radio stations in Australia, which is Southern Cross Austereo, you know, they have like, I don't know, might be 20 regional stations around Australia. So you've got the capital cities— Melbourne, Sydney, Brisbane, Perth, Adelaide, Canberra— and then you have the towns where there's huge populations, 150, 250, 350 small thousand people, which in comparison to somewhere like the States, it's nothing. But these towns thrive, and they have their own, you know, industries that they focus on and real communities. And so the, the radio stations in these communities serve and have over the past 30, 40 years as a great sort of, um, uh, you know, like facilitator of community. It's a centralised point when there's weather issues going on. People would be listening to radio, understanding what's happening. If there's fires or, you know, droughts or whatever it be.

Tommy: It's like a public service.

Josh: Yeah, local events, and there's people, you know, it's just being tapped into your local community because sometimes in further out towns you can feel less connected than some people in the city might.

Tommy: But when you actually link to community radio, there's dollars behind it.

Josh: It's— there's budgets, there's, you know, guests. And so the network approach, having being owned by a bigger brand, it means that they, you know, they have access to the big shows from the CBD, from the cities, to be played in the afternoon, or access to talent, or people, you know, interviewing people from the big, you know, big TV shows that people in the town might be watching. But beyond that, I think it's— the biggest bit was we were— when I moved to Shepparton, was the emphasis they were wanting to put on community and localism, they called it. Geez, I heard that word a lot. But so I found out that, you know, got an email at 12 AM one, one morning saying that, you know, would you like a— would you be up for taking a regional radio job? I didn't know where. I honed it into two places within Victoria that it could be, and I got the one that I thought it was and I wanted, which was—

Tommy: Shepparton. Is Shepparton from where you were living at the time?

Josh: 1 hour 50 if you were sort of flat stick, you know, to the speed limit, but flat stick, an hour and 50. So, it's far enough away that you can't be bothered coming back sometimes. And so, I sort of gave it a red-hot crack and lived in the town and loved it and sort of got amongst the localism, and I've got some best mates from my time there. And so, you know, it's— you're working hard for not much, you know, you're producing you know, you're paneling, you're, you know, presenting, you're making the videos, doing the content, social media. You're doing every role in that social media. Every role in, um, radio is done by the people on air. And so it's very bare bones, not much support.

Tommy: Does it feel like a big company though, or do you— when you're there, or you don't feel like you're part of a big company?

Josh: Um, in terms of the town, there is a there's a fondness that people have in these towns to radio because they grow up and they're probably doing the driving. And this was like, well, you know, 2012, 2013, 2014, still didn't feel like Spotify was big or these, you know, people were still at that point, I think Spotify only came to Australia in like 2012, 2013. Yeah, yeah, so definitely wasn't embedded. And so people were in these towns listening to radio and people knew you like you'd go into a local shop and you'd hear your ad being played while you're doing the shopping. And so there, it's very embedded at that point, and your ego's through the roof at that point. You know, you're fucking doing your shopping, you're like, holy shit, that's me! And you tap the person on this, you know, like, can you hear that? That's— no, I'm joking, I didn't do that. But I think that there's the, the feeling when you're there, it's, you know, you, you're, you're learning the craft.

Tommy: It's just happened to the stream, potentially. That's strange.

Josh: Well, you would—

Tommy: uh, yeah, keep talking.

Josh: You're working hard, you know, you're, you're putting in effort and hoping that something comes from being in a place that isn't your hometown. And so, you know, I can imagine the people on the shows that are getting this email saying you've got to have a meeting with your boss at 9 AM after your show on Thursday because big changes are happening. It's, I mean, far out. It'd be upsetting, especially when you don't know what's going on.

Tommy: Yeah, I mean, the— Yeah, do you think that when you're there, does it feel like something that you're going to be there for a long time? Or how long do people normally spend in the regional towns?

Josh: Oh, 2 years. 2 years. But some people only do a year, but they say like give it a go, 2 years before you even find your feet on doing this stuff. And so you, you know, you're doing 15 hours of live broadcasting a week. And I mean, it's— this is— I mean, for a lot of people, they wouldn't just do the daily thing like what we do because it's— it seems ridiculous. And then when there's a small amount of money, or even working for somebody else, when you have that reason of I'm showing up because it's a job, you know, as well as I enjoy this thing that I'm doing and I'm, you know, challenging myself. It definitely, you know, like where else can you do that? You can do it by yourself and that's what I believe because we're doing it, but I wouldn't be able to do this now if I hadn't have done that. I don't think, like to the—

Tommy: So, does that mean, like did you have a sense of, is like the business side of things, like how much revenue or like what? It was worth to a big company to have a fucking random radio station in a town?

Josh: Nah, not at all. It seemed like legacy advertising at that point.

Tommy: Like, what do you remember, like, with the local fish and chip shop, what would they be paying for? Spots?

Josh: Yeah, I didn't really get into that. I was too— I had too much else to think about. And there were— it wouldn't be much though, you know, like we would do a thing where it's the biggest burger in the GV Yeah, Goulburn Valley. Um, it was huge, it was fucking ginormous.

Tommy: So I said golden— what is it? Goulburn Valley.

Josh: Goulburn. Goulburn Valley. And so we would go to a fish and chippery and try this new burger and get some photos, and there will be some advertising about it. And so I don't know, they're probably paying $800. Yeah, this is where they've— but they've got sponsor— they've got people in the town who have been advertising forever that are always advertising.

Tommy: Yeah.

Josh: And then the, the trap there is they don't stop because they aren't sure if it's working, A, or if, if it stops, it means it's gonna— it will show that it was working.

Tommy: Conundrum, right? It's like, oh, fuck, you know, you hear companies that spend $25,000 a year on Yellow Pages. Yeah. And they're worried that if they get rid of it, are they gonna fuck their business? But the, um, I mean, so what they will be doing, I guess, what, what a lot— where a lot of these, um, sort of where this industry is going is networked shows. So yeah, so you were talking about, so you would have a breakfast show that is local, and then you would have shows that were coming from Sydney or something.

Josh: Yeah, so in the afternoon it would— or from sort of 3 o'clock, 2 o'clock, it would tap into another feed and you'd sort of, yeah, line it up for it to drop in at the exact time. And then you'd be receiving the Hamish and Andy feed or the Fifi and Jules feed. And it was, you know, that's not being run out of the town. So it's like being run somewhere else, and so the— it's just fed in and the computers are doing their thing at that point.

Tommy: Yeah.

Josh: And, um, but yeah, so there's like a— I wonder how it worked because a lot of these legally in Australia, the— to have the radio license, you need a certain amount of content being created out of that specific area that has the license. And so, I mean, this is where everything's been turned on its head based on the radio industry suffering in a company like SEA being in astronomical amounts of debt and not making money like they used to. Just who the fuck is spending like they once did? Yeah, on radio advertising, it's just not happening. And so this is sad because they're pulling— if they pull, say, I don't know, it might be way too many, let's call it 10 shows at $100 grand a show, $50 grand a presenter and then, you know, there's a lot of money at that point that's just a saving across a year, and that's just the talent alone. And so it makes sense from a business perspective. And they're, and they're even saying that like radio, the listenership is older now based on the people who would once listen to radio have now just grown up, and the younger generation don't care for it. And so they need to change how they you know, what they served up.

Tommy: Were they doing digital? Were they— because I guess they're a media— they're not just a radio station, it's a media company. So was there a sense that you had your Facebook and all of that sort of stuff as well?

Josh: Yeah, they were there, but half the— this is the issue, they, you know, all these, all these stations around the country rode that wave of, uh, Mark Zuckerberg leaving his front door open and his house being just ransacked, which was the algorithm spreading your content far and wide, and it didn't matter what you're using or posting. And so one of my posts that I did, it was a meme. I didn't put a, uh, I didn't put a caption on it because I wanted to prove to— I was like annoyed at my boss because he's like all about blah blah blah. So I posted it and it got like 30 million reach or something ridiculous.

Tommy: And I was like, mate, bigger than the town.

Josh: I did nothing. I just fucking found a meme and press post. And so that all these pages around the country built up hundreds of thousands or thousands of followers that weren't local.

Tommy: Yeah.

Josh: And so at that point it doesn't mean anything. It's like, fucking, we've got a video production company in Melbourne but our biggest audience is in India.

Tommy: Yeah.

Josh: And knowing we don't have clients in India—

Tommy: case.

Josh: Yeah, yeah, it's definitely not the case. But that would be like doing that. It's not going to serve you for any real reason other than maybe clout metrics. Exactly. To the— but then you just— it's a complete Ponzi scheme if you're trying to say to the local town's, you know, bakery, we have 25,000 followers on Facebook, and then they're thinking that is the whole fucking town. How have you got—

Tommy: oh my God, this is the whole thing. But it's a, um, so did the localism stuff not hit digital as it did with radio? Because obviously radio was drummed into you.

Josh: Yeah, we would put— we want— we put out local content, and that's what works, to be honest. Like, that's what got great sort of feedback and people saying, oh, I saw that too.

Tommy: Or because that'd be fun. I feel like it would be like—

Josh: it is.

Tommy: Imagine being in a, in a town. I could really get behind being like a, a local journo or something in a town where it's like, you know, that you've got you know, X amount of thousand people that you're— that is your audience. And you know that when you post about the fucking crash that's on the corner of this road, or the things that's like, yeah, people care about it. For me, that's way more powerful than reaching millions of people who aren't really that fazed, or even don't really know anything about where you're coming from.

Josh: Well, you could look at local as the audience, like, that's you, and then you understand the town, the people, the schools they go to, what they're seeing when they're driving, you know, all these things. And then you have all of that as content opportunities to connect. And so that's where half the shit I know I learned from being on radio and trying all these things. It's, um, and so it's a bit sad. It, like, if people are going to be losing their jobs, it's a sign of the times, but it's also no one likes to fucking, you know lose their job.

Tommy: Do you think in Australia we're a bit behind when it comes to podcasting?

Josh: Um, I mean, that's to say that they're in front in America.

Tommy: I mean, I use America because it's such a big market, or just in general, like, I guess, yeah, even look at the US, but like, it seems like shit is happening very— like, there seems to be so many opportunities and things still yet to be tapped into.

Josh: Yeah, yeah. I mean, that's— I mean, we're trying to give that a crack. And so what is it? What— how far behind? And what is the place where it needs to get up to in your mind?

Tommy: Well, I just think like you see things that are happening now and it's first steps, first plate. Like, I don't, I don't think like there's no sort of massive leaders. Like, there's some people who are doing good stuff for, you know, like independent, uh, podcasters like, uh, Mama Mia or whatever that are doing really well at serving their audience, and they have a bunch of podcasts. Um, and then you have, you know, Shameless, who have created a, um, a cult following. But then outside of these smaller examples, I just feel like, um, it feels so primitive. It feels like Um, uh, yeah, like, I feel like there should be more attention to— from a media company perspective— in investing in it. Like, if you think about the rah-rah, if you think about what people are talking about and the Joe Rogans and, um, you know, the Gimlets, uh, you can see people trying to give it a crack here in Australia, but for the most part, it doesn't seem to have the depth. Like, we don't have, we don't have independent networks for the most part that are doing a bunch of shows and that are building that sort of audience. I guess, um, Planet Broadcasting is one. They've sort of, you know, done really well with doing that. Yeah, just, yeah, just an observation. It feels like such early days with all of this sort of stuff. Yeah, and it just surprises me when you look online and you do Googling how little there is that's out there in general.

Josh: And what, say, for the stuff that is in the States, is it that, that audience is there, which means money's there, which means more people are going at it? And versus in Australia, it's like if the masses aren't there, the money's not there. I mean, it's starting to, definitely. It's definitely moving.

Tommy: Yeah, I mean, the interesting thing is, like, you look at mainstream media, there are a bunch— there's a lot of content that's created just for the Australian market. So it's like The Project, like, no one outside of Australia would really care to watch The Project, I'm guessing. Um, but I think that it's this— the tension that we're seeing at the moment is it's there's less and less incentives to be doing a local show, a show that's just for Australians. And because you can get— have a crime show that does really well, and then you've broadened out your audience. And I see the appeal. I see, like, for us, I think we started off way broader in regards to who we thought we were going to appeal to, and then we've slowly come to the realisation of, okay, 70% of our audience are Australians. It seems like there is an opportunity to serve the, the local market. I just feel like potentially, using the example that we're using of the towns, there will still be the want, um, for local, local people talking about things that are local to them.

Josh: Oh, definitely local creators. I guess it's then the creator itself has to— because it is independent, most people aren't being, you know, thrown a bunch of cash to go and do a podcast about a local area. It's the creator then thinking that they want to take it further than Australia, which is easy to do, easy to, easy to think that at the start. And because you've got a microphone and your megaphone and you're talking, and then it's only until a bunch of people are in front of you that have started listening that you realise that, ah, it's, it's here, or they're over in the States, or they're like— I know Planet Broadcast have a huge audience for one of their shows in the States.

Tommy: Yeah, so, or something. So is the— so I wonder, like, I wonder if you took something like a suburb of Melbourne where we live and created a podcast for that suburb that was really suburb specific, that every single person that— like, so for me, oh yeah, my go-to is like, um, Pod News that James Cridland does. He's, uh, he's like an ex-radio dude who's really sort of well respected in the podcast space. I listen to that. That's a, it's a 4-minute, uh, podcast. He sends out an email as well, and it's specifically on the new— like, it's the, it's like the fucking got— like what people would have probably gotten from E! News or whatever the fuck it's called, you know, like that Hollywood, yeah, you know, sort of news. I get this from Pod News. Um, it's, it's definitely not as dramatic as that. It's, it's like, oh, this this event's on and this new podcast has launched. But yeah, imagine that in the— I wonder what that would look like in a local market. Is that small thinking?

Josh: Well, I think it's definitely— who's interested in understanding the Bulleen Banter show about who's got the best oranges growing in their backyard? Bulleen Banter. Who's got the best lemon tree? Oh my God, Bruce has some, um, 'Rosemary that's growing out of his bloody ears, and you can come and grab some on your way through if you're walking down, you know, Manningham Road.' It's like, it's— it— you, you immediately take the, uh, so, you know, the demographic of the people in the suburb and the— and, and how many people are there, and you can work out pretty quickly that won't look like money on the other side. And so that's why, you know, it's— how do you talk about local areas that can be appealing to somebody that doesn't live in the area? It's what's relatable. And so you're trying to find that in—

Tommy: yeah, but I wonder how many— I wonder how many people, uh, trying to shoot for like world domination, and they're— because they're focusing on that, not only do they never get to there, but they never get to do the important work that they could be doing close by. I don't know.

Josh: Yeah, I think that's I think it serves you to think about world domination to begin with when you have no idea, like no context. And by doing, you're building the context, realising that, ah, people— there's other people like us. And so then you work out who they are, which we've done that. That's so—

Tommy: part of it too is it's like, so what I like about what we do with the daily talk show is it doesn't necessarily have like this could— not that it could become anything, it could. I think it could. I feel like it's a living, breathing thing that could just turn into whatever. But also it's like we're doing something. Like, I feel good that it's just like we're just moving forward in regards to, yeah, being able to talk and be curious. And sometimes you have guests on, and so there is something in, uh The problem with, so like Hollywood, so if you use Hollywood as an example, being a Hollywood director, if you're in Melbourne and want to make films in Hollywood, there's definitely, you have to at some point make the transition to living there and doing all of that sort of thing. But if you go there and then spend all of your time trying to play the game to get in front of people and do all of that sort of stuff, How are you as a craftsperson versus being somewhere else in the world and fucking going on as doing as many directing as many films as possible making independent stuff to then transition? I don't know what the answer is. I think it's diff— I think the interesting thing is that there's a real clear distinction between how Hollywood works and how independent filmmaking works. Podcasting isn't really like— the way that we record our podcast is the same way that every world-class podcast does. Like, there's very little in regards to technology, in regards to skill set. Like, we're flexing the same muscle.

Josh: I think if you have that original destination in mind And if— and even if you think it's correct, the reality is that the destination is shifting. The, the goalposts keep shifting as you get closer. And so it's, it's a mirage seeing the ending in sight. And so you start doing a show like this, and when we started, it was, you know, 2018, and it was our show. We put everything into that. Now we have 4 shows in our network. And so like at that point, it's— that's come out of us starting. If we thought about that back then, is it as in really like, here's the business plan, here's what we're starting at, here's what we're going to be doing— it's too much for our head. We thought, let's just start.

Tommy: And so you end up moving along, you end up doing stuff, and things evolve, and it doesn't— I think the weirdness with our journey is it doesn't feel like we're moving forward all the time.

Josh: Or—

Tommy: but I think that the key is that it's definitely not linear. So there'll be little things will happen and we'll see a peak, but then you'll slowly go down the hill in regards to what feels like progress. And so— but then I guess it is like the markets. It's like when you zoom out, you are always going up when it comes to growth and progress., but you just need to be able to ride all of the other bits.

Josh: Yeah, it can be frustrating. It can be amazing as well.

Tommy: Yeah, the other thing too, probably the thing that I think about is it's like with anything, why not? Why didn't I do this earlier?

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: And so, hindsight. Yeah, I think that like for a lot of people that is the thing as well. Um, or there can be that feeling of it's too late, but you can see how the mistake in that is just not doing it because you think you're too late, because it's like you have no other— like, doing it now is the soonest you could possibly do it. And also, yeah, the context— if we had started doing this 5 years ago we may have, uh, our timeline may not have matched well with listeners and, and the, like, building an audience and doing all of that sort of stuff. Or, and so yeah, I think that it's a, um, time is a, is a, is a weird thing, especially when you look at a pandemic and everyone's fucking looking back. It's like, do I really want to be, do I want to be doing this? Do I like, is this the thing? Yes. You know, am I happy with my job? But like, especially when people are like thinking about job security, talking about job security, it's like, and they're taking 20% cuts, or they're fucking just on JobKeeper. It's like, hang on, like, that security that I thought I had was actually all a bit bogus. And so then if that's the case, what can we do? That's what I'm excited about from the pandemic.

Josh: Oh yeah, and then there's the, the thought around, uh, the ship has sailed. And the problem with that that statement, the ship has sailed, when it's referring to YouTube or Instagram, is that it's assuming you wanted to be on the ship with all the other fuckboys.

Tommy: Yeah, yeah.

Josh: Versus creating—

Tommy: but also the ship is ever coming every 5 minutes, and that ship was full. And so it's like, it's like when you run— I mean, this is really relatable, but it's only ever happened once. You know, you're running to a tram and, uh, it takes off, and some— the last, like, a person fucking gets in there just before you and you're like, motherfucker. And then 5 seconds later another tram comes that's going the same place and there's no one in there, it's empty.

Josh: You pick your seat, you decide what music you want to hear. It's, uh, that is, that is the pick yourself analogy. The problem with, you know, there's ever— there's a— in anything there's riding the first wave of sort of interest, but it doesn't mean that that's the fucking only wave in the set. Anyway, yeah, that's it. All right, create, baby, create.

Tommy: It's, uh, The Daily Talk Show. hi@thedailytalkshow.com is the email address. Talking about creating, I'm very proud of, um, Toni Lodge's podcast. She's been doing an epic job with that. One Trick Toni, uh, episode 3 landed today, and it has Mr. 97 in what I believe is his most anxious state on air, uh, since probably the sex talk that he had. He, he was, he was definitely out of his comfort zone, and I really appreciate it. It's great listening. So One Trick Tony, listen to it, give it 5 stars, uh, on Apple Podcasts. Um, it's great. Also, um, Too Much Telly as well, that, that came out, uh, Tuesday, comes out every Tuesday. And next week is the Psychon. Next week Is that next week?

Josh: Yes, yes. She convinced her own psychologist to come on the show, which I don't know if I'd do. I don't know if I'd do, but it's Too Much Tully, so it's in the name and it's definitely too much.

Tommy: It's a daily talk show. Have a good one, guys, and we'll see you tomorrow.

Josh: See you guys.