Essentialism & Gurus

Tommy: The Daily Talk Show.

Josh: It's The Daily Talk Show, episode 813.

Tommy: What's happening, guys? What's going on? Morning. Top of the morning to you.

Josh: I found my beanie, but lost it. So, found it and lost it again. Because I was going to wear— I wanted to wear the other beanie and say, "Hey, I found my beanie." Yeah. But I couldn't find it in the short time of getting ready for the show. But do you know where it was? Have a guess where the beanie was.

Tommy: I reckon real obvious location, like on the floor of your bedroom.

Josh: No. No, it's like— Where was it? It's an obvious one if you think about it. Yeah. It was wrapped up in my jumper. So, I'd taken my jumper off and my hoodie had gone into the jumper. But can you see how you can go crazy from that sort of shit? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Tommy: Oh, mate. It's socks. You lose your socks in your sheets when you're washing them. And then you pull it out, you're like, mate, I, I put more stuff into this, but where is it all gone?

Josh: Do you have a top loader or a front loader?

Tommy: It's all about that front loader these days. I haven't seen like many top loaders, don't really see them.

Josh: Pretty affluent to have a top loader, I reckon.

Tommy: Well, I— or old school, like most of the old school ones, like top loaders were the thing back in the day. Uh, we had one, I, I don't remember Like, I always thought that it was more affluent to have a front loader, like seeing it.

Josh: Well, yeah, I think that, but I think what you might be describing is the front loader feels like something you'd see in the movies or something like that. The top loader I consider more utilitarian. It's doing sort of a bigger thing.

Tommy: It sort of feels industrial.

Josh: Exactly. It's closer to Charlie from Willy Wonka's Chocolate Factory. You remember what they were used to doing? That's like the ultimate old-school top loader.

Tommy: Old school. We've got a front load— I mean, they're all— I was gonna say there's no difference when it's a dryer. They're all front loaders, aren't they? There's no top load dryers. That's an interesting thing. I don't know why they do that. But we bought a dryer, Game Changer, for the winter in Melbourne.

Josh: What sort of power is it sucking?

Tommy: Oh, mate, I don't know. I mean, I'll tell you how much cash it sucked. I thought— I was like, oh yeah, it's $700. I was like, oh, whatever, it seems right. And I was like, oh, that's pretty good for $700 because it has like an LED light in it. It's got all these different settings. Amy's always like pulling out some tray and emptying moisture. I was like, wow, that's fucking good for $700. She's like, no, I think it was like $1,300.

Josh: Oh really?

Tommy: What the shit?

Josh: I thought you was going to say no, the good ones you don't have to empty the water.

Tommy: No, no, she went full hog and got the, like a really expensive one that should last. But this is why I don't buy these things. No, it's very— Yeah, it's doing its job.

Josh: It's lasting.

Tommy: My point being is I wouldn't buy— Like, this is why if you put me in charge of it, I wouldn't do— I wouldn't buy one. I would think $700 is too expensive and leave clothes wet and soggy and then just be annoyed my whole life.

Josh: I mean, I'm always planning for the future with my purchases. For instance, our fridge. Has the front bit where you can put water, like you can get a glass of water. We've got a fucking rental. We don't have plumbing for that.

Tommy: You've got a fridge of a family of 6.

Josh: Yeah, yeah. And I Uber eats.

Tommy: Your fridge is twice the size of mine, has never felt the occupancy of my fridge. It's literally soda water that you— Because you've got lazy using a SodaStream, you bought like some backup soda water.

Josh: Did you see that?

Tommy: No, but I'm just—

Josh: Yeah, the Mount Franklins. I got the Mount Franklins, got a great like a LaCroix competitor, their raspberry.

Tommy: Oh yeah.

Josh: It tastes like Schweppes raspberry. Remember Schweppes raspberry soft drink?

Tommy: Yeah, yum. Yeah. I mean, I just took a punt there. It was me. No, no, you're a basic bitch. I know I can get you. I've just had a French press little coffee today. I really, really wanted to go out and buy one, but we should probably just be, you know, we're in lockdown now. We should be just trying to do what we can do from home. I, yesterday I had a thing where I was like, I got so high on coffee where I'm just like, it'd be like a—

Josh: Ready for a fight?

Tommy: Someone's trying to talk me down of having more. Like I'm like the drunk guy at the pub who wants another beer. He's so pissed, but he just wants another fucking beer. And that was me with coffee. I was like, I'm just launching. I don't like, I'm too far gone. I may as well keep drinking. I might, it might go the other way. And so I just went so hard and had so many coffees. And, and yeah, I mean, this is where I, I don't know if it's like, I have severe soreness in my jaw muscles. I don't know if it's, you know, connected to the amount of coffee I'm having or I'm just grinding my teeth at night and I'm waking up just like, there's definitely, it's, it's lessened the last week, I reckon. But I reckon I was more stressed 2 weeks ago. Just not even like, you know, when you, you need some sort of stimulus going on, stuff going on, but then you need some kind of feedback that tells you you're stressed because sometimes you're just in life and you don't know. And so one of— and the jaw, like me having a sore jaw is like, what's going on there? If anyone knows stuff about why it's happening, what you've done to fix it, please email us, hi@thedailytalkshow.com. But it seems like a— I heard one thing, you know those rollers that we got from—

Josh: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, like the jade eggs on a stick that you move around.

Tommy: I hope it's not a fucking jade egg on a stick, then I'm— Just think about that.

Josh: They're all the same, I think, the same sort of stone maybe.

Tommy: But I was— Someone said that you use that to massage and that releases.

Josh: Oh, right, yeah, it's really good. I mean, it's not helpful, me having sort of my beard and neckbeard and stuff, gets a little bit caught up. But no, I'm the same. I drunk so much coffee yesterday because Bree had 2 photo shoots, which were like the final shoots that they could do at Hey Tiger, the chocolate company she works at.

Tommy: Get it in before.

Josh: Yeah, because they're staying open because they're doing food and all that sort of thing. So, you can go on Hey Tiger's website and buy chocolate and they're still doing deliveries. But they had these 2 shoot days locked in for a long time. And so, they were still doing it, but it meant that my coffee run couldn't be done.

Tommy: Yeah.

Josh: Because Bree is the champion who goes and gets the coffee each morning. And so, I was just—

Tommy: You legit thought that you couldn't do it.

Josh: You decided, "I'm not entering into that bullshit." I just, yeah, I've gone, it's too far gone, you know. I think that it's like, it was too much. Too much effort. And so I was like, I've got the Moccamaster, I'll make, I'll make coffee. But yeah, I bet I was making a liter. I did it the last 2 days, and, um, I've just realised that every time—

Tommy: If you've been shadowboxing around your house—

Josh: Yeah, well, I just realised how dehydrated I was. Um, and so, uh, last, last night before Bree even got home I filled up my 2-liter bottle of water and just walked paced around the apartment drinking it all until it was finished. Um, but I just— I did have that moment where I like did that and went straight and had a shower. I just feel like it's, it's something that would happen where it's like, you're like, why is there no water?

Tommy: The shower's on, but it's, it's none of my head, it's just your dick pissing out all that water.

Josh: No, but I just, I ended up being like, um I got a little bit worried that I was gonna have a fucking heart attack or something because I'd sort of drowned myself and then gone into the shower. Like, I just sort of imagined Brief finding me, and I wondered whether they would— if they would ever know. Like, if I was to have died, whether they would have said, ah, like, there was a huge amount of water in him, he's drowned.

Tommy: Um, Olivia's written through on YouTube and said that she holds a lot of tension in her jaw. The massage helps a lot. I definitely found that. I tell you where another version of, uh, a signal of high stress or lots of thought going on for me, um, is the amount I think about— say for instance, at our office, we're going to close the garage when you leave, but then if you don't close it we're in trouble. Like, it's an entrance. Like any house, you leave your fucking garage open, most people can access the house through the garage. Um, I like— I reckon it's been the last sort of 3 months I've started— when I do it and I drive off, I freak thinking I haven't done it. And I think that's quite normal, that you're like— it's just like you're in this autopilot mode where you're doing things that don't require a great deal of brain power to sort of get through. Even driving, you're like driving, you're like, fuck, I don't remember driving here.

Josh: Well, because you're thinking about other things.

Tommy: Yeah, and so you're, you're on that sort of auto mode. But, um, the, the way around it— and so then there's the doubt on yourself taking that action. And like, it's this weird thing where you're like, fuck, I don't trust myself at that point. But what I've worked out, I think it's a high— when I feel stressed, it happens to me more. Um, and then I, um So what I start doing is taking photos of shit. So I've just got all these dumb photos of a garage door down and just like, mate, if anything goes bad, I'll just text this to JJ. No, no, no, I closed it. I closed it, mate.

Josh: I mean, there's a little bit of like OCD. That's a big thing that people with OCD do.

Tommy: Yeah. Well, I mean, yeah, for me it's— yeah, when else do I do it? It's you. It's, I think, just around garage doors for me that I can accidentally tap on my ass, like if it's in my car, because I've done it before. You know, that's when you— it's fucked because you do something once and you're like, fuck, you lose trust in yourself.

Josh: I'm a lock checker. Like, I definitely— and it's like with our office, there used to be an issue where the door wouldn't always close completely if people walked in. And so I'd be on to, like, I would always create a fuss about that, or I'd always, like, be listening out for, did I hear the click? Yeah, because, and no one ever, like, everyone assumes that the door's closed. So that's the thing, like, it's never a, um, you know, do you know what I mean?

Tommy: I mean, yeah, yeah.

Josh: Have you heard?

Tommy: No, but have you heard, heard what George says? He's like, my, my saying that he started reeling off.

Josh: No, what is it?

Tommy: Uh, rip it shut. Because I'm always yelling out, rip it shut, and I never think about it. But like, Amy, can you make sure you rip the door when you go out? Rip the door. I don't know, just rip it in. I want to hear that and then the lock. I want to hear that lock.

Josh: So what's happening with Bodhi?

Tommy: So Bodhi's at home. He's, um, first day, uh, first day of no no kinder, no, what is it? Childcare. So, we don't have to pay for it, which is always nice.

Josh: Can you explain the way that— So, I don't understand. So, ScoMo was on the TV yesterday and he's talking about this childcare stuff. I don't completely understand it. So, it's if he doesn't go, he loses his spot or something, but now they're saying that's not happening, but then So are the government then paying a fee to these childcare places?

Tommy: I mean, what I will say is that this shit, like, where I empathise with the government needing to make changes at very rapid speeds for shit that's like with what's going on, is that it's— think about the complexity. We struggle to just fucking work out a few little things. These people are working out shit that's impacting millions of people. And so One thing I will say, we haven't got any info, hardly any info from the daycare because they haven't had the info. And so the— when I say info, it's around payment. And so maybe I missed an email, but I don't think so. So anyway, what they meant about the losing your spot, if you unenrol your child from daycare, it's hard to get them back in. All daycares, it's like you need to either be on a waiting list or you find one that sort of got a spot. But it's not as simple as like, I want to take my kid there and then they will be able to go there. Like for Bodhi's daycare where he's at now, he started on 2 days a week. It was a try before you buy. They wanted to see what he was like before. No, no, no, no, no, no. It was a, we only have 2 days available. For him to attend, but it will open up so you'll get the other 3. So, we transitioned him into full-time over, say, a 2-month period, 8 weeks.

Josh: And are they private companies?

Tommy: This one's a co-op. And so, it's like cooperative, like it's more—

Josh: Put the bins out.

Tommy: Co-ops, yeah. So, they've got like, you can be on a part of it. So, there's, I think someone is like the CTO or someone helps with like the building of it. Someone helps with maintenance. It's all, it's interesting where Bodhi goes. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But yeah, everyone's signed the form saying we don't want our kids on camera. So I'm light on work. No, but where Bodhi's daycare is, side note, it's a, I think it's an old orphanage in Melbourne. So it's like—

Josh: Doesn't look like an orphanage. Oh, well, it doesn't look like— It doesn't— when you imagine an orphanage, I just imagine like some sort of, um, uh, what would you— how would you describe it? My nana grew up in an orphanage, so I just imagined like, um, yeah, wow. And so I imagine like, uh, uh, old school, you know, like, yeah, real old school, you know, like a church.

Tommy: I think it's like a long— yeah, yeah, that's what I think, church. I think that's sort of like But maybe years ago when it was happening, but it's still the same building, which is kind of cool. And so now it's just like, it's very, Bodhi's Daycare is very old school like the one I went to that feels like, you know, no frills. It's just like care for the kids in great outdoor area. Well, daycare's not, daycare's just day care.

Josh: I've been there a couple of times. It's like there's, It feels like there's spots to put bags or some shit. Yeah, this is what they do. It's not like a house though.

Tommy: It's not a house, no, but it's a daycare centre. There's all different age groups. But did you, like, I never, like, is daycare centres, you didn't do this?

Josh: Is that a new thing? Like when I was a kid, like mum was at home or whatever.

Tommy: Yeah.

Josh: And then when we got, like, once we moved to high school, then she went like she was dental nursing before she had kids and then after she got back into it.

Tommy: So there was creche and kindergarten, which is for a certain age. Like mum had, mum looked after all us boys, 3 of us for quite a while. Like she was, you know, had her side business of yoga, but also looking after the kids. And so yeah, I didn't, I mean, we sent Bodhi to childcare. At like so young. Remember, he was like so young, he was crawling at that point.

Josh: Does he get to do— will he do Mini Movers?

Tommy: What's that?

Josh: Mini Movers, it's like where you learn to tumble and shit.

Tommy: Oh yeah, yeah, they all do a heap of that shit. Like at his other one, they did sports day.

Josh: Does the childcare become like they do all of the activities and shit?

Tommy: Yeah, yeah, so it's all dialled in, mate. They're doing Awesome shit.

Josh: Do they do excursions?

Tommy: Yeah, they will. They had that at this one that he's at. They do. He hasn't been on one yet, I don't think. They walk around, they all get in high-vis vests and they have to go in a line and hold hands.

Josh: It's so cute.

Tommy: And I think they go around just the local area off to do stuff. But anyway, so the childcare stuff, you, for the decision they've made, which we were like, are we going to have to pay? Because if your kid's sick, so if he just has a cold normally, say a year ago, if he just had a cold, he could stay home, but you still have to pay your day fee based on your spot. It's just your spot. This is just how it rolls. It's crazy how expensive it is.

Josh: And so is that not why kids end up getting sick and then giving it to their parents? Because they're like, I've got to fucking send him anyway because we're fucking paying for this thing.

Tommy: I mean, this is the rat race require, you know, everyone's trying to keep up. It's like, that's why you go to work sick because you don't want to get your— you don't want to not get paid. And then you send your kid to work, it's the school sick, because you're like, I can't stay home because I can't do my work at home. Like, it's a whole conundrum there. But what they set in place was like an amount of days per year that would be covered by the government. So there's like— this is new, this isn't— well, From what I know, it is new. What they've done in this new lockdown is extend the amount of days out to about 43. 43 days covered by the government, which means that it will cover the whole entire stage 4 lockdown, 6 weeks, which means that parents aren't out of pocket and the gap is being covered by the government. So, the childcare centres get paid. And so—

Josh: I've got my coffee.

Tommy: And so the childcare centres are getting paid, the parents are getting their money, not having to part with money. So, Amy's—

Josh: Do they do any weekends?

Tommy: Nah, nah, nah, nah. So, the— So, they have— Yeah, so we don't have to pay. This is Amy's first day working from home and Bodhi's first day at home and he's loving it.

Josh: So, what does he do?

Tommy: He woke up He woke up fired up, wanted me to read him a book. He came in and got into bed, he buys with us.

Josh: And does he get it? Does he know what's— what does he think's happening?

Tommy: No. Oh, I said to him, you're not, um, we're not— you're on holidays, you're not going to daycare anymore. He said, oh, why? And I said, oh, coronavirus. And he's like, oh, okay.

Josh: Is holidays the wrong thing? Should it be just like, you're working from home now? He said the wrong precedence with him, but so he thinks that he can just fucking screen time and he's not like— what would he normally—

Tommy: but think about you when you normally do what you're doing at work. I gave zero shits about what was going on in the world as a kid. Like, that's— I think that's the privilege of a child.

Josh: Yeah, yeah.

Tommy: You don't like the stresses— a 3-year-old feeling the stresses of the world.

Josh: But so what is he—

Tommy: him waking up going, my jaw— imagine Bodhi's spinning the shit I am, mate. My jaw last night, I'm stressed. I'm trying to lock the garage door and I fucking can't I can't remember.

Josh: But do you think the kids would have stress based on just like, I don't get it, like, like from a consistency perspective? Like, yeah, like I wonder, so for him, does he just think it's the weekend?

Tommy: I think he's at a sweet age where he's still very ignorant, like doesn't, you know, doesn't, doesn't need to, or he knows, he says coronavirus, parks are closed, coronavirus, this and that. But he doesn't. I've heard that there's younger children who are experiencing some anxiety because they're— think about it, you've just gone to school and it's a big enough thing to be at school for the first time as a 5-year-old, 4-year-old, and you're working out who your friends are and where you fit into the whole thing and why am I attracted to little Benny over there? You know, like it's all that stuff. And then you're like, Sent home. You're like, you're not going to school and you can't really understand it. Like, you think about when you don't understand something, how uncomfortable it feels, like when you really bathe in it and you're like, so what happens then? I'm out of my depth.

Josh: With it from screen, like from a screen perspective, screens are very important in 2020 to like, you know, speak to grandma, speak to all that, like to speak to everyone, right? Like to be connected with family. With friends, but it's also the same device where it's like a little bit destructive.

Tommy: Yeah.

Josh: Yeah. So, like, how do you—

Tommy: A syringe helps people survive, but also helps people take heroin. Exactly. That's a good point. It's the same device. The daycare are doing YouTube videos where they're going to have the teachers reading some books.

Josh: Really?

Tommy: And so—

Josh: Can you send me links?

Tommy: I think it's about Yeah, yeah, I'll send you a link. We'll put it in the, um, in the Discord. Yeah, to see you. See who's across it.

Josh: Could we try and get one of them to go viral? That'd be pretty funny. I mean, I guess we need to have gone viral to help them.

Tommy: Yeah, true, true. And so, um, I think it's about how— what, what he's consuming, and then the habit.

Josh: He—

Tommy: because he came in this morning wanting a book which I was impressed by, uh, because we read the book last night and obviously he loved the book. And so you don't want his operating— normal operating system to become walks in, gets movie.

Josh: Yeah, exactly.

Tommy: Stays in bed, gets fed, you know, gets, gets his Uber Eats. I mean, this is your lifestyle at that point.

Josh: He's got to get older. He needs to work for it. So what's the deal as parents? What are the conversations you you and Amy are having around how you structure your day, how you make sure that you're not blowing up at each other?

Tommy: So, Amy is working from home today, tomorrow, and then her company has stood down everybody from Monday onwards. So, Amy doesn't have a job from Monday onwards for the duration of the lockdown. So, it's like, it's standing down because the industry is completely closing. For the 6 weeks. And so is that common across the board?

Josh: Is every— is— do you know, like, you're all— I wonder if they're doing the same. It's in like a construction, so would it be considered construction?

Tommy: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I think there's, um, speaking to our next-door neighbour and they're a smaller business that just have small amounts of people on site at the time, so they're just staying open. But not— it's— I think it's, it's unique across the board. What everyone's—

Josh: Yeah, it sounds like commercial stuff might be a bit harder compared to like— I mean, what's more— Where it's like, you know, yeah, the consistent thing is that there's a lot—

Tommy: How many people are going to get— lose their job? Maybe a million? 200— Yeah, quarter— 250,000 people are going to lose their job in the next 6 weeks. I mean, in the next week.

Josh: Yeah. And not funny, all these things like, um, uh, let go, stood down, furloughed, like, um I used to use some of them interchangeably, right? Like, oh, stood down versus let go. But it's like, okay, no, there's a difference. So stood down, especially within the context of this stuff— Amy is on JobKeeper then, is that how it works?

Tommy: Well, that's the plan. What is the stand down? The stand down is when an employee can't do useful work because of equipment breakdown, if the employer isn't responsible for it, industrial action. Yeah, so if like a you worked in a factory and all the equipment shat itself, they have to stand people down based on something that isn't necessarily been in their control. And so, this is a perfect example of needing to stand people down. And what's the other one? Furloughed.

Josh: Furloughed.

Tommy: It's furloughed.

Josh: So, it sounds—

Tommy: Furloughed. Furloughed.

Josh: Yes. So, Glen from Florida had mentioned heat when He works in sort of the sports stats industry. So, when all the sport, all the events were getting cancelled, they had to furlough a bunch of people. And so, what is furlough?

Tommy: So, I just— furlough versus laid off. A furlough, F-U-R-L-O-U-G-H, reduces hours, days, or weeks employees may work and usually has a finite length. In general, furloughed staff is a still technically employees. They retire— they retain their employment rights and generally— and general benefits. Laid-off workers are no longer employees and lose their benefits and protections. So, um, so I think furlough is the similar— same to stand down. So you aren't— I mean, actually, a furlough seems like you still are doing some stuff. Yeah, like But drastically less. Stand down is we're not— we don't— you can't work in the factory because it's broken, but you're still employed until it— until we get it back up and running. It's— yeah, I mean, fuck, man, this is the stresses for people at the moment, even needing to work this out. It's not ideal. I'm sure the company didn't want to do this at all.

Josh: Another thing is it's like you can't, um— I think that it's hard making decisions at the moment because it's— you're on a certain path and you make promises and you say we're going to do this, we're going to do that, and then out of your control things happen. It's like, okay, well, um, I think that sometimes, like, maybe we've even been immune. I think that you and I have been somewhat immune to the announcements in some regards because we've done such a good job of like keeping the daily talk show going and doing stuff and progressing. There's never been— it's not like a factory or something where it's like, oh, the factory's burnt down so you can't come in. It's like, yeah, there's always progress that can be made. But I think that within that ambiguity, it becomes potentially even less clear, or we give ourselves less opportunity to be clear on what's happening.

Tommy: Yeah. Yeah, I mean, it's so bizarre. Just if you thought before that you could— so before, the luxury or the thinking could be, we're deciding on a new direction, let's lock that in and go for gold. And, and we've— and at the start of the year, we actually did that. It's like, this is— we're in control. We've been the ones that haven't set us on the right direction, so we're going to cement a direction and get started. And we did that for our business, and then that COVID hit, and you just saw the destruction it had, and the upward trajectory we were on that just was, you know, cut at the knees. And so at that point, I mean, we've set out probably 3, 4 directions this year and then had things outside of our control cut them down.

Josh: So where's that point? Ownership. Where does personal, like, ownership come into these types of things?

Tommy: Well, I think what you've said there is, for us— so ownership relating to—

Josh: so I mean, we were off to what? No, extreme ownership in regards to, like, personally. Like, so for us, I think that we own our decisions because we're, we're building something that's a hybrid model. There's the original content like you're listening to or watching now, and then there's the client stuff and those conversations, and then there's the middle ground where it's like we get, uh, paid to do things within this show. And so we have always taken an extreme ownership approach where it's like, um, there's no system, there's no pathway, we're building this from scratch. And so what, what I'm finding interesting is I think that I'm trying to take a little bit less ownership around, like— and maybe that's another framing of it— is just a level of detachment where it's like, like, it's all— like, it's all going to be fine. You don't have to worry about, um, the next 6 weeks. Survive. Dan Andrews started using the phrase or the term pilot light, which you fucking love now.

Tommy: Yeah, it's great. I mean, there's nothing—

Josh: I don't even fucking understand it. What have you ever—

Tommy: no, okay, maybe it doesn't resonate. There you go, there you go.

Josh: To be honest, on and it's fucking our pilot light, the hot water thing. Yeah, it's a pilot. I don't have hot water. Is that how it works?

Tommy: Yes, our pilot light went out at this house. I had to get my next door neighbour to sort it out.

Josh: You just light it.

Tommy: Well, I mean, sometimes it's a bit annoying.

Josh: Like, I don't know.

Tommy: So this is what you don't want. This is what you don't want. You don't want your pilot light going out. And Daniel Andrews has said businesses, which before was hibernation, that was the term. Now it's we're putting the economy on, on, onto pilot light mode, meaning it's just, it's burning, it's still there, it's still alive, there's gas going into it, but you ain't getting that flame yet. And so when you think you can get flame in pilot light mode but you're just restricted because you're still on the pilot light setting, you'll feel out of control when you try and just fucking light a, light a big fire. It's like trying to get that big flame.

Josh: It's like the Olympic torch.

Tommy: Yeah, I don't know about that. I don't know. I mean, it's still got fire there. I think the pilot light is— it describes more of the soft element to it.

Josh: Sometimes you call it pilot mode, which I think is actually different because a pilot's— unless you're in autopilot. I think that what you're getting confused with is autopilot, pilot lights, and pilot mode.

Tommy: I haven't wanted to bring that up during the time because it's—

Josh: well, I think that pilot mode, pilot mode, I feel that we're where fucking our hands are on the, um, what is it called? The yoke.

Tommy: I don't know, what's that?

Josh: It's the fucking, the thing that they use to fly the plane. Is it? Is it a yoke?

Tommy: I'm not an aviation guy. Is it, you mean the steering wheel looking thing? Like the thing that you pull back?

Josh: Actually, I could get a fucking Honeycomb Alpha flight control for $415. That'd be fun. I could, wouldn't it? But anyways, I could bring up the A380.

Tommy: I think, uh, maybe we should—

Josh: yeah, go on.

Tommy: I think the control— what's the, what's the learning? The, the learning could be the control we once had is no longer the control we have now. So it's a shift in what it— what we are able to control. So it could be a false sense that we had control of the— or, or it was a true sense that we had control of our, trajectory based on no movement, no issues within the economy, or within, you know, no rules like we have now, Stage 4. And so they are gone. So what, what are you in control of then? You're in control of what we can do in the new, in the new confines of Stage 4 and the economy. And so that's where it's shifting. So there's a grasping and grappling with the new version of the landscape that then we have to work out what are— what can we control. And so then it's all— it all comes back to us, right? I think you're doing a fucking great job of working out what you can control for yourself that will make you be able to get through this time.

Josh: And so it's like, I think it's just like, yeah, it's for me, and it comes out for different people Um, but yeah, for me it's that like connectedness or whatever, or it's like the, um, like already my phone time's down 40% from last week.

Tommy: Really?

Josh: It's like an improvement, but still goes— 40% means that I'm at 6 hours a day, not 10. So it still has a way to go. But yeah, it's interesting. It's also interesting as you, um, uh, there's a great book called Essentialism which which I, which I love. And it's, it talks a lot about— it's, it's sort of like, um, minimalism with a slightly different skew. I really like it. But, um, yeah, I think that for me, I'm trying to work out what's essential, but also what are the things. So I was batching all of these things together, so I was doing 7 different things. So I think that where Instagram, or where social media in general trips people up is it's a communication, it's so much. So it does everything. So it's like having a gym at a McDonald's. Like, so you think like I'm fucking going to the gym. Yeah, but you're also going to McDonald's. And so like this is the playground conundrum with Maccas. It's like Instagram has built a fucking playground at McDonald's and you're going there every single day because that's where you go to get activity and see your friends and do all that sort of stuff. And so for me, uh, it's, it's working out. Oh, I can actually use— I'm using iMessage way more. I'm just using like text message. That's way more fun. Fucking off all the apps and stuff off your phone. Um, and it feels like during this time when everything is so out of control, that seems like an easy one to do. Like, I'm sure there'll be fucking heaps of eating disorders and shit to come out of this because it's like a lot of these things come from I'm out of control. I need to be able to control something, so I'm not going to fucking eat, or I'm not going to do this. So for me, it's thinking about those things and maybe actually getting through. Wouldn't it be great if I got through some of my books?

Tommy: Yeah, definitely. And so then, do you think it's beneficial to the other stuff you're reaching for in life?

Josh: Yeah, what do you mean?

Tommy: So that, like, that shift in just what you said there How does that directly impact and benefit the other shit you are wanting to do in life?

Josh: Well, yeah, I think it does because for me, I think about all of the things that I've been doing and then I say, are the things I'm doing, is that actually contributing to the good bits of life? So, is it like, is it giving me all of like the great bits? And it doesn't. Like, I'm, I'm very lucky. I've— I have a great life. I get to do a lot of great things, and I love what I do. But a lot of these things aren't actually adding to that. And so I think it's just drawing a bit of a line, reducing essentialism. It's like doing the show, doing the— like, for me, I fucking got up early and worked really hard in the morning because I'm like, actually, you know what, I want to middle of the day, chill out and fucking watch some baseball, and I got all my work done. It's like, I can fucking do that. And so I think there is a bit of that where it's like, um, previously there's a sense that you've always got to be on and grinding and doing all of that sort of stuff, and then you set that expectation for everyone else and everyone else is stressed. It's like, okay, well, what about if we give everyone the same autonomy it's all about, uh, what you're delivering, what you're focusing on, not creating heaps of distractions, focusing on mental health. Like, that's a win over the, um, hyper-stressed version. Does that make sense? You okay that I'm watching baseball at 11:15?

Tommy: No, that's fine, that's fine. Astros are playing shit in the morning.

Josh: Um, Phillies played this morning too.

Tommy: So if you— so these times that are stressful for people A go-to could be get real— not stressed, but get really sort of active and busy with trying to scramble to make it work. But I don't— yeah, I don't know how impactful or beneficial long term, because it might just cater to the feeling at the moment, which is you're out of control and you're trying to just fucking grab at anything. And so the— or externally stuff's out of control, and so then you're, you're playing that game of in and out of control environment. What are you grabbing at? It's— nothing's making sense. And so what you're saying is the inwards control versus trying to control the shit that isn't able to do so.

Josh: Well, I'm sure like a psychologist would be able to, um elaborate on this stuff, but if you look at— So, all of the hoarding that's been happening or the, you know, collecting of way more things that you need, like, I think that that mentality is a psychological reaction to the unknown. And so, it's like, okay, I need to be prepared and so, I'm not going to have abundance, so I'm going to try and create abundance by fucking ordering 50 water bottles as if our fucking taps are going to stop working. And I'm going to have like, you know, uh, iPhone, uh, chargers, like batteries, so if the power goes out I'll still have that. I have my beans and I'll have all, all my canned food. Um, and I think for me there were like the fir— the first wave, so March, for me there was a little bit of that where it's like I have no idea what, like, what goes when this stuff happens. What's like, what is the reality of that? And so, you think you're being proactive and you go and you get all of that sort of stuff. And then, we've had those experiences and now for me, I feel like I'm going the opposite route in the whole scheme of things, which is like, oh, what can I get rid of? I actually don't need much. Like, if you sort of remove like I don't need that much to survive. I don't need, like, if I've got— I don't need even fucking electricity for the most, for the most part. If the power went out for a few days, it's like, it's actually not the end. I haven't left the fucking house for, uh, many days. Uh, I've got a bunch of books. We've got fucking— maybe we need some candles, but got some candles.

Tommy: You need some candles. I, um, I had an idea that I want to do— I realised that it was hard for— maybe hard with a child in the house. Um, a weekend, the challenge is you're not allowed to use power for 48 hours.

Josh: Yeah, I love it.

Tommy: And so you have to use candlelight. Um, I don't know what you're eating, but it's not anything from the fridge because you can't open the fridge because that's using power out of there. And so it is a challenge. You can't use the computer. Can't use your phone. You can't use any of that stuff. You've got to disconnect completely. No power, nothing. Because that means you can't even have hot water because there's some kind of power connected to that, I think. Is there? Yeah, I reckon the hot water machine's plugged in.

Josh: Connected to the power.

Tommy: Hot water machine. Because it could be an electric hot water system rather than the way that ours is an old shitty gas thing that has a pilot light. But would you be up for it? Do you reckon you could do it? Yeah, definitely. Yeah, I mean, it could be a bit of a movement across the Gronk Squad. We all do it and we have to, um, so we'd pre-record all the shows so we don't have to think about tech stuff, but then we do a weekend where we're not— you're not allowed to touch any power. No PowerPoint, no nothing, nothing.

Josh: Yeah, I do like that idea.

Tommy: Just a bit of a challenge. Throughout the lockdown, because I thought this— there could be some stuff to do, little think about the challenges or the things we can do based on the time. I've got a project I'm working on, a bit of a building project that I'm going to sort of release within the lockdown. I can't tell you much, but all I will tell you— no, not a bee house.

Josh: Close?

Tommy: Not at all.

Josh: Bird house?

Tommy: All I will say is I'll be looking pretty good. That's all I'm gonna say.

Josh: You're building something?

Tommy: Yeah, I'm gonna be looking pretty good.

Josh: An astronaut suit? You're building something that makes you look good?

Tommy: Yep.

Josh: As in you, like, on your person?

Tommy: I won't tell you more. Just, yeah, yeah, I'm a person. Just, I'll be looking good. That's all I'll say. I'll be looking good.

Josh: Doing some sort of crafternoon hat thing, hat making. Yeah, that'd be fun. All right.

Tommy: Yeah, I may have spent $50 at Bunnings. I may have spent $50 to get this happening on the company card, or on the company card, but I think it's going to be— I want an asset to the business. No, no, it's going to be an asset. It's such a low-level purchase, I can't tell you. If it was $1,000, I'd have to tell you.

Josh: Casey in the YouTube chat says, uh, Tommy, so it's like camping at home, talking about the, um, the challenge.

Tommy: Kind of, kind of. I mean, I could just crack out the tent for out the back. Yeah, but yeah, good one.

Josh: All right, well, I hope everyone's going well, especially in Victoria. Day 1. Yeah, and nothing's changed for me. It's fucking—

Tommy: no, I mean, it feels quiet outside, like I can't hear.

Josh: I'm excited for that, actually. I'm gonna go look, look out. The moon's been crazy, hasn't it?

Tommy: Oh dude, full moon, huge. I've messaged you twice this week saying, seen the moon, seen the moon. It was, oh, it was like perched when we drive into the city, it's perched above the buildings, just like big and orange and just, oh, it looks so nice.

Josh: Uh, yesterday I spoke about a documentary on Transcendental Meditation. About the whole, whole organization. I watched the doco last night. If you have Amazon Prime, you can watch it in Australia. It's called, uh, David Wants to Fly, and it's a German filmmaker who follows around David Lynch, who's a well-known sort of advocate and supporter of TM. It's interesting. I think that what I took away from it is TM, the meditation stuff, is really beneficial, and it is like, it does help heaps. Yeah, unfortunately all of these other things have been bolted on, which like, what's with gurus fucking their followers? Can we— why can't— like, what's that? What's the deal?

Tommy: Sam Harris in his app talks about gurus. A bunch. And so, I mean, this is the thing, it's just— think about it's ego at that point. Like, if, if you were manipulating people and, and benefiting from, from individuals doing things you say, like, there has to— the ego is very smart. And either they convince these people that are in air quotes enlightened to start acting this way, it's, it's It's phenomenal. It's not all people. I mean, this is the problem. It's like, not all priests are pedophiles, not all gurus are sex pests, but there is a lot of gurus that have become sex pests.

Josh: The thing is, I think that the formula, or the sort of over— like, the exaggerated energy that goes around these people puts them in a— like, they're like rock stars. Yeah, like God.

Tommy: Exactly, exactly. Yeah, exactly, exactly.

Josh: That's the reason I don't know if I could, um, I don't know if I have it in me to be like, to have a guru. Like, I like the idea of the meditation stuff, but I just like, he, you know that everyone shits.

Tommy: Like, there's no stuff. But so what is it? So just quickly, uh, the, the label of guru is one I don't know who's given it to them. But then, so what does the term mean? Like, it's, it's probably a, um, guru meaning— like, it's— where's the word from? A Hindu spiritual teacher. So that's what it is, a Hindu spiritual teacher. So guru in the Western world has become that, you know, the almighty.

Josh: It's like a god.

Tommy: It's like— exactly. And so this is where where you're— where it's being used is usually like, you're not calling Sam Harris a guru. I don't think it fits. But he's my spiritual teacher. He's a—

Josh: is it just because—

Tommy: a meditation teacher.

Josh: You sent me a bit which talks about sort of the, um, the aesthetic of being enlightened or whatever, right? So it's like you're going to grow your hair a certain way, you're going to be dressed, you know, dress a certain way.

Tommy: Yeah, spiritual materialism.

Josh: Yeah. And so Is it just the reason why you're not resonating with Sam Harris as he's your guru is because he looks like he could be an accountant?

Tommy: No, but what I'm saying, I, I think, is the guru term, what it actually means is a Hindu spiritual teacher. Sam isn't a Hindu, and— but he's a— he's somewhat of a spiritual teacher. Um, and so usually the people that are gurus people from India. And so Ram Dass— Ram Dass had gurus. He was a very, very prolific meditation teacher who passed away a couple of years ago. He, he was the closest thing I, I think to what could be a guru of— from the Western world. But he never thought of himself as a guru. He had his guru And so, who was in— who was a Hindu spiritual teacher, which is—

Josh: but so this is what the essence of a guru is, Maharishi or whatever. Maharaja.

Tommy: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Josh: Mahesh Yogi. He's like, he's an Indian girl. Like, that's all— like, the, um, it has all the signs of what you're describing is a legit guru, or like what the, um, the more sort of, uh original, um, wording describes, but it still seems pretty toxic. Like, um, you watch a, uh—

Tommy: so my mom has a guru. My mom has a guru, Paramahansa Yogananda, who was unbelievable. He came from, I think, India to California to Hollywood I mean, this was 90 years ago, and he brought the teachings over there. And so there is a power there. He was one— there was people into him though, like there was all those things. But I don't think he— he doesn't have a bad rap like some of these.

Josh: So the thing is that it's not necessarily a, um, about a bad rap. I guess part of it is I just wonder whether a guru— there's a, a level of individualism within a guru, which is like there's this single— like, if you zoom out, an individual isn't their ideas, or they're not like— and so their ideas can be transformative, they can be, they can be doing amazing things for the world, but I feel like potentially by putting a name and a face and, uh, and, and all of that to it, it then— that's where it sort of gets muddied. Can you not have all of this stuff without the prophets or the, the, um, the individual people? Christian House says people follow people.

Tommy: Yeah, yeah. And so who's that guy that was on, um, your boy's podcast, Kevin Rose's podcast, um Lochman or something. He, he was saying that there's a version of practise meditation that requires a guide, but then there's also the bit that doesn't. It can require you to listen to a few sort of, uh, you know, I was gonna say tapes, but no one fucking listens to tapes anymore. A few guided meditations on YouTube or podcast, whatever it be. Um, or it can just require you to take the thought and place the attention to your breath, or, you know, one of these areas that allows you to create some, you know, concentration that gives you a benefit of that. But there is a version that requires a teacher. And so people like— which is the Paramahansa Yogananda, he who would be seen as a guru, is also teaching. Like, these people have written books that help guide you on your journey.

Josh: And so Aren't they just a vessel of information though?

Tommy: Like, yeah, of course, but what else have we got?

Josh: But wouldn't— well, but I think that, and I don't know enough about this stuff, but I'm just going based on what I'm sort of thinking and feeling. Um, and the feeling is, if this is all a great— it's like the TM stuff, right? If it's a great idea, if it's transformative and it's going to bring world peace and all of this sort of stuff, why why have a company? Why, why turn it into this— yeah, you know, uh, cash generator?

Tommy: Um, yeah, and then that's where it's like, that's could be the warning signs, or when someone is trying to make a shitload of coin out of it. I mean, there's— but there's a bunch of people. So then you can't just do everything for nothing in life. So Sam Harris, the amount of people he's impacted through his app that costs $140 a year. He also gives it away for free if you can't afford it, no questions asked.

Josh: But for me, so at that point it feels different though, right? I think that the, the difference that I'm, I'm trying to reconcile is it's like, why do you need to— why do you need to have the individual at the center? Is it just— it always seems convenient that Yeah, like they've got— they've come across based on like generationally or through passed down or whatever it is, they have received this great information. And the bit that I feel is the, um, the bit that I'm not sure on is there's all this truth around, okay, psychologically or like from an impact personally, it has a huge impact on people. Do we need to connect that bit with the storey of them being able to levitate, or like fucking fly, or—

Tommy: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So why not?

Josh: They've taken one good thing, they've taken something that's really great and beneficial, and so it's like you could be— and but then also piled it on with all these other things, which then—

Tommy: Of course, but what is that? That's, that's ego at that point just overriding and creating these— this version in someone's mind to go down this dark path. Um, Rory's written through on YouTube referring to Ram Dass, and he said that Ram Dass said, 'A teacher shows you the way, but a guru is the way.' E.g., when you look at someone in pure bliss and all of a sudden you get a feeling for something that can't be taught. And so if you start reading, JJ, I think you're on a good path. You should start looking into people like Ram Dass, listening to him talk about his guru, and just— and, and the effects of these people that are pure bliss. It's, um, so what I just call my mom.

Josh: Yeah, so yeah, we should call my mom, get her on to chat. Um, because it's— it reminds me a little bit of a, um, some reading I did on like what a muse is, and like a creative muse. And a muse is something that um, like, so creatively, we don't— we don't have the creativity inside us. A muse comes in and visits. We have a flow state, or we write out all of this sort of stuff, and then it leaves us. And so the great thing about a muse, or that experience, is it's not attached to ego or the individual. It's something that comes and you're, you're open to it. So there is a piece of work that you're doing where it's like open to it, but at the end of the day, you're not in control of it. I feel like from a guru perspective, maybe this is similar to the perspective of God. So guru and God, like, say if I was to use them interchangeably, because I think there's some similarities. God, I don't think, is this individual. Like, I'm not a a religious guy, but I don't— I wouldn't even see God as this individual thing, like, you know, the guy with the beard or whatever. I see it as a, um, a feeling, a, a thing that can't necessarily be quantified. And the reason— and that's why it's like, if we were able to create a picture of God, or, um, you know, if we were to describe and say a guru is this and pointing to a person or whatever, it feels like that is our ego trying to describe or project what that is, and it makes it feel clearer. It's like, ah, that's a representation. But I feel like there is something—

Tommy: yeah, I don't think gurus are gods. I think if anything, like what Rory spoke about Ram Dass is that it could be they're tapped into something, and it could be God, it could be the, the tapped into that higher power, but they're definitely not God. Those gurus aren't saying they're God. The gurus are— so yeah, I understand higher power. So it's like that exact thing of the gateway to that bliss. And so, and but so they're not— they can't— I don't think guru and gods interchangeable.

Josh: But what I'm seeing is it's at its essence my— then this is my personal experience or my personal thought— is that it's, it's not a, um, it's not a flesh and bones thing. It's something that's bigger than that. And so they, they represent a state. And so for me if we say that this person is like someone who was born on this earth and all this, I think giving them the, uh, elevated state of they are a guru or they have found it, for me it feels like there's a level of— comparison is not the right word, but it's like looking to other humans or other people as a way of trying to understand your own spiritual journey versus, um, looking at the— like, seeing the qualities. So not necessarily seeing the qualities from that individual, but being like, okay, these are the virtues or the qualities that I think having a state of calm or enlightenment or whatever you want to call it— like, it doesn't need to be attached to someone. And I feel like, yeah, but then where do you—

Tommy: I mean, where do people— that you need teachers, you need guides in life. So yeah, because there is stuff that we don't know that someone else can have.

Josh: So, but we can have teachers without turning them into rock stars. And so if you look—

Tommy: of course, no, but this is where it's— I don't think there's any, any thought that there hasn't been gurus or people that use the term for themselves.

Josh: So Bikram, using Bikram as an example, or using, um, uh, this example with TM.

Tommy: I think what you should do is look, is look to and, and, and hear people talking about the ones that are positive. You watched a bunch of docos that are— you're referencing the huge, the highly—

Josh: I'm doing the ones that are the guru. The— I'm talking about the biggest things that, like, the, the— from a Western culture perspective, like the Dude, there is so many.

Tommy: I don't think they are. Like, I think they have— trust me, like, there are so many more out there that are huge and have huge followings that aren't this. And so, so what's the—

Josh: so the pushback, the pushback on it, um, or the, the thought, the thought around no, no, no, the gurus have something, like you need to listen to them more How would you describe your feeling or your, um, the protective nature of talking about gurus, or you need to know more?

Tommy: Yeah, I just— okay, I haven't— there is something when I listen to Ram Dass that I feel connected to him, and I don't know him. I'm listening to his voice. I'm so highly engaged and the words he's using and what he's saying feels so aligned with what I think, but I can't explain it. I couldn't articulate it the way he does. I'm— he's tapping into something, and he doesn't even— he's not calling himself the guru at all. He talks about his experience with his guru that is the experience of bliss, pure love, like all these things that He's just, he's just talking to his relationship with him and the teachings he got from him, not even at a verbal level, at a connectedness, like a heart level. And so I think if you were to just listen to this stuff, listen to it and just go down that path a bit, so that's what I understand.

Josh: And that's what I do, like, I fucking, like, I, I've got a bunch of these audiobooks I listen to, Dalai Lama talking about all this stuff. Like, I've got no issue with the message. I have no— like, the messages and the— all the things you're describing, like, they're spot on and it's amazing. The question is, these are ideas that are, um, uh, that are universal, or it's things that we can take on without— if you take away the name from, or the, the, the person or the personality, the individual, the human behind the words. I just want—

Tommy: but that's where you get to. That's where these people have got to. I think what you're talking about is, um, people that are looking to gurus. They're not there yet. They haven't worked that out.

Josh: I don't think so. That's what I'm probably confused about is Skeptical of guruism or whatever it's called, and but being very interested in the spiritual experience, working on meditation, mindfulness, all of that sort of thing. Yeah, push back on the guru bit. I feel like when I mention I'm not sure on this guru thing, it's like, now you need to do more work in understanding what they actually are. And part of it, yeah, I think is that you can't, you can't just say, well, it's like priests or anyone, like you can't say, uh, everyone in this area, you know, is, uh, is problematic or whatever. But I think, I think that there is something problematic about having individuals that are your, like, human beings, people who were born and the fucking— like, they're, you know, however you want to describe it, them being the spiritual, uh, liaison or a representation of where you want to go versus the inner. So there's a difference, I guess, between what I'm— and maybe it's a language and a word thing teacher versus guru. Teacher, I think, is amazing. A teacher has things that they've learned that they can pass on, and you should listen. Like, this isn't me saying you have all the answers, don't listen to people. It's like, listen to people, listen to what they have to say, but at the end of the day, they're a human being who's having a crack. Um, and we can listen to them. But the guru bit, the bit around, um, uh, what— where you can see it become— becoming problematic, or it being a centrepiece of someone's spirituality, I don't know.

Tommy: No, I agree with you. I agree with you on all of that. But not all gurus, spiritual Hindu— Hindu spiritual teachers are the version of what you're saying.

Josh: And so, but what I'm— I guess, yeah, that's the part. The part— what I'm saying is it's not the, the guru bit, uh, taking some being sex pests or all that sort of thing out of the equation. I think that the, the idea of having a single person that is, um, from a hierarchical point of view is spiritually above you or, or something, I think is the problematic bit.

Tommy: So Paramahansa Yogananda, my mom's guru, died 80 years, 100 years ago, whatever it was, a very long time ago. His teachings, his principles and practices, and his, his experience on earth are still impacting people today. And so it's not like some guys— he's not benefiting as an individual in this earth right now, um, based on him creating, you know, attention to himself. And so when you look at people like that, it's like, how does that sit within, you know, that, that sort of don't put someone at the centerpiece? It's like they're still helping assist people on a journey on Earth at this point. And so that— I, I get it. Like, mate, I would be If anyone outwardly said they're a guru, I'd be thinking— I'd be like, oh, okay, it's probably not a guru.

Josh: So, but I don't think these people— but so I, I think that what's potentially getting missed, or the bit that I'm thinking about, is like, I don't think the them saying that they're a guru isn't the bit that I'm talking about. It's at the individual level thinking, getting confused between the message and the, um, the delivery system. And so I think that when you focus on the delivery system, when you focus on the prophet, the individual, the guru, the god, whatever you call it, you're— that's a dogma. That's where you like, fucking— that's where I think it becomes a problem. All of these things are universal.

Tommy: Humans do human shit. They fall in love with them. They and they, they want to be with and they want to touch all this stuff, which I think is a layer that probably they haven't been able to reconcile or see.

Josh: And then they're a pragmatic approach then, where you say, um, the guru bit, the individual, that all that sort of thing, you can go down that path, you can, you can read that stuff if you're interested, you can read their autobiography but the, the gold, the bit that's going to move you forward, isn't the individual's narrative. It's not the guru's narrative. It's the virtues that come from it. It's the, uh, it's the posture that we come to life with rather than—

Tommy: I haven't, I haven't— I don't think if you like— some of these people I've learned about aren't using their path as the like they're using exactly what you said. And so the ones that you're— like the Bikrams of the world, like these fuckwits that are using their narrative and their, you know, and their charisma, like they're manipulating. So there's the version that isn't doing any of that, and they're not embodying that. So you have these people like—

Josh: so there's thought leaders, like, so like if you— there's, there's people who, like, I'm comfortable with thought, like, if You can be a thought leader, you can have great ideas, you can have people that it's like you respect. This isn't—

Tommy: it's just not for you. Like, if that's— I don't think you can get into it if it's— if you have this attitude.

Josh: But I think it's just— but that's just okay. I think— no, but I think that the dogma in it is if you don't like the individual guru stuff, spirituality— and that this, this is not what you're saying, but this is how it can come across— if you're not willing to take the guru bit you are not ready for the message.

Tommy: And my perspective is what guru bit you're needing to take, because I'm not taking a guru—

Josh: like, well, I think that it's like, at this point you're listening—

Tommy: like, the guru bit is just a label of, as it, as it states, a Hindu spiritual teacher. I'm just listening to the spiritual teachings from a Hindu teacher at that point. And so that's, that's what it is. Like, at that point, if you it's not about getting bogged down in the, in the term guru or whatever it is. How do you even land on one of these individuals? You only land on them based on resonating with their teachings. And so you have to resonate.

Josh: You can resonate, uh, so you get that, like, people are comp— uh, complex. So it's like someone can be great, and we've like— that's one thing we've fucking learned. You can have great actors, great directors, great all of these different things, but they're flawed humans in all of these other ways. And so all, all that I'm, all that I'm saying is that it would be interesting— hi@thedailytalkshow.com if you've got any suggestions on this— like the, the path to mindfulness, the path to all of this sort of stuff without getting bogged down in what I perceive just because they like addressed differently to us or whatever it is. Like, there's still— like, ego isn't something that was fucking just created in 2020. Ego's always been a thing. And so it's, it's— and just because someone was fucking— it was 200 years ago or whatever, or however long, like, that doesn't, that doesn't mean that all of a sudden because they didn't have iPhones that they, they there wasn't fucking ego and all of that stuff attached. I understand that there's— there needs to be leadership and there needs to be, um, uh, you know, there needs to be voices who can do a great job, which is what you're connecting with, that they can articulate something that you haven't yet been able to articulate. And we need leaders and we need people that we can look to but the message is more important than the individual. And that's all, that's all that I'm saying.

Tommy: Yeah, yeah. But I, I don't know how many— if you're getting conned by the persona before you've heard the message and understood and connected with the teachings, that's—

Josh: I think that's a big story. I think that part of it is that it's, um—

Tommy: but that's what you're saying. You mentioned the, you know, the the look of the people. It's like, but if that's what you're— that, that is a— that is what you— it's a construct, of course. It's like, that's some idealistic— like, you're looking to someone that has to fit that persona. That's not necessarily how it works. It's— I don't think that is the majority of people are going finding someone like that just because they have guru-looking status. Um, it's the teachings at the end of the day. It's the only reason you'll stick around if it does something for you, and if you resonate and connect with. And the other side is the same thing. If you get manipulated—

Josh: sensitivity is that you've— which I completely understand— the sensitivity is it's like your mum has had an amazing life based on the teachings of a guru, and the guru has been a big part of the teaching and has been talked about within the family construct, or like the part of like when you're talking about things, it's a big part of her journey. And so it's not off the back of watching documentaries about evil gurus.

Tommy: Of course I would think the same.

Josh: The thing is, but of course I would feel the same. It's, I mean, the thing is, it's not, it's not even about evil gurus. What I'm saying is that the focus, if you take away, like, there's gonna be fucking great people, there's gonna be great in every case, there's great people, and then there's people who aren't great. The thing, yeah, I think that's—

Tommy: I— there's— we're definitely not disagreeing there.

Josh: Yeah, I agree with you on all levels.

Tommy: Yeah, on all of your points. There's a danger to it, but then you— yeah, I think there's probably a little investigation into and, and seeing what— seeing if there is somebody that resonates with you from these— from more of this sphere.

Josh: I would prefer to have heaps of people, messages, uh, messengers, like different people from different backgrounds, different sort of, um, you know, what, not one specific, uh, religion or one specific fucking whatever you want to call it, and getting virtues and get— and I understand the simplicity or the power and the potential dogma though as well in being like there's this one, there's this one idea, there's this one guru, there's this one individual.

Tommy: I don't know who you're talking about though. Like, that's I think that's silly if you've— if that's your approach. One person is my everything. I don't know if that's the way. Well, I think that that's my mum's had many teachers. My mum's had, you know, her direct yoga teacher.

Josh: And so normally it was in Melbourne from, um, and I'm wary of just being a fucking trying to sound like an expert based on watching the documentary, but the, the consideration—

Tommy: it's a real problem. I agree with you. If that's your approach, that one person is my saviour for everything in my life and I won't listen to anyone else, that's a dumb strategy. That doesn't make any sense.

Josh: And so I think that that's where, like, I think that the leading with the person can do that. Anyway, I don't know if we're fucking making any sense.

Tommy: If you take that approach, you outlined a bunch of approaches that if you took that, it would end up in the situation you're talking about.

Josh: And I think so, there's people who it's like, if you say a specific, I'm going down this route, I'm going down this type of teaching. All of the good— all the other people that you're looking at, it all feeds into the same one individual that it's all started from, right?

Tommy: And yeah, it's all tapping in, it's all tapping in. There's hundreds of gurus doing a similar thing, tapping into something of a higher power that's not, that's not directly related to that individual. It's just like, mate, this is fucking motivational speakers that connect with one person, not the other.

Josh: So this is my criticism. This is my criticism of when people like fucking do this with anyone. If they do it with Tim Ferriss, if someone's like read 4-Hour Workweek and they're like, fucking Tim Ferriss, he's like, he's amazing. Like, it's amazing. All like his messages are amazing. He's put together. Yeah, he could be. A really good communicator or doing a great job of bringing and synthesising different ideas and presenting it in a new and exciting way. But Tim Ferriss didn't invent fucking passive income, uh, and so I think that that's part—

Tommy: my mum did. My fucking mum did. Exactly.

Josh: Um, but does that mean she learned it from her guru?

Tommy: Yeah, I think they're super, super basic principles. That, um, you can't get all your information from one source. Um, the world is varied and, and everyone's flawed. Like, this is— all these things are spot on.

Josh: And so I think that maybe what's getting missed based on the conversation— I have no issue at all with whatever your individual spiritual journey is, if it involves gurus or whatever, or like a fucking prophets or whatever. The bit that I'm saying is that let's not make spirituality, or let's not make mindfulness, um, only available to those that are willing to use those constructs. And what I'm communicating—

Tommy: I don't think—

Josh: yeah, and so what I'm communicating is that I will do all this, that like It's not like because I don't believe in the individual, or not even believe in the individual, don't want to buy into, um, the, the following mentality. But I think that there's heaps of interesting things that we can gain from listening to these people. I will listen and listen to the message without necessarily having to fall into the following mentality. And the reason why I'm communicating that is because there's probably a bunch of people who it's like And I fucking used to say this all the time when I was a kid with Ari or whatever. I was like, yeah, like, I get— even I speak to, uh, my mate Naysan, who's Baha'i, and I talk about like, hey man, like, behind closed doors I'll be like, hey, like, in regards to all of this, like, do you— like, all the virtues and stuff, the community, all these things are like, or like, there's so many awesome things about all of this stuff. But do you have to believe in the storey and how they got there? Like all this, like that bit that I'm not sure on. And that's across like all religions.

Tommy: And so for me, yeah, did one individual actually part water and walk through it? Like, yeah, I get that.

Josh: Yeah. So my perspective is you can. The answer for me anyway is you can enjoy the fruits of being more mindful and doing all of those sorts of things whilst moving to the side some of those other things. You don't have to— It's not a black and white. It's not you take it in its entirety or you don't take it at all. I think that we are able to be, you know, mindful without the rah-rah.

Tommy: 100%. 100% doesn't require that. To get to a place, you know, a place I understand.

Josh: And the thing is, I understand that for some people you do need it all, and for them their best path has been what's the compelling bit for them, is the stories, is the, the greater bit, the longer bit. But just, it's not for me.

Tommy: Yeah, yeah, definitely.

Josh: Okay, all right. Uh, it's The Daily Talk Show. If you've got any thoughts, uh, hi@thedailytalkshow.com. Otherwise, are you a guru?

Tommy: Are you a—

Josh: I mean, this is what happens. We'll look back at this as like, man, did you see what happened when fucking they went into lockdown? They were real existential stuff that's going on right now.

Tommy: I think it's a good time because you're actually interested in this shit, that to actually do a bit of exploring to see what happens for you. Yeah, because I'm, I'm with you, and I think that the other side of the, the non-toxic gurus is— or not even gurus, just the teachers of that mindfulness stuff. I think you're curi— you seem curious about the mindfulness and meditation side of things, which is how, you know, it's, it's awesome.

Josh: And I don't think that— I think that I'm wary of not hurting feelings or not, um, disregarding people's ideas on what they believe. But I just think that there's the other bit where I think there is an option where it's like, hey, I fucking love all of this, let's use that. So anyway, yeah, yeah, it's, uh, The Daily Talk Show. Have a good one, guys.

Tommy: See you guys, love ya.