Trust & Uncertainty

Tommy: The Daily Talk Show.

Josh: It's The Daily Talk Show, episode 797.

Tommy: What's happening, guys? What's going on? Welcome back, JJ. Thank you. I know it doesn't feel like it because we've been speaking most of the days, every day, but you're still at home and you haven't got your COVID test, so I'm in the studio burning the midnight oil.

Josh: Your, um, your voice, you sound like you got a bit COVID. You're a bit, uh, you sound a bit croaky.

Tommy: Ah, that's just, um, a bit of the, uh, bit of Domino's.

Josh: Oh really? Yeah, Domino's. Yeah, okay.

Tommy: Georgie boy and I had a bit of Domino's. That's a bit of a late night Domino's, uh, what do we get? The, um, something that's— it's like, uh, take your breath away. Nah, it's something like a fiery breath.

Josh: Fire eater.

Tommy: That's it, that's it.

Josh: You're impressed?

Tommy: I'm very impressed. It's the fire eater. It's, uh, it's got me.

Josh: Well, congratulations to 97 on yesterday's show. He was sitting in my seat for the very first time. It didn't actually sink in until after the fact that it was the first time I'd ever missed a show.

Tommy: That is the first time in 793 shows. That's just a guess, but I missed a show. I missed a show. What was it? 5 in?

Josh: Yep.

Tommy: Well, technically not. More of my voice was on. Technically, you missed that show because I did more of the talking in that episode, but I was sick and I pulled the, the— I pulled the pin based on— I must have been like, I had to have been spewing because it was early days, but later on spewing didn't stop me.

Josh: And so I think that you just weren't used to the whole, the, the, um the commitment that we were going for. But yeah, you contacted me, it was like episode 5, and you said, I'm too sick to do it, can you play an audio of a video of you and Craig Harper? And so what I did was I was actually at Woolworths Abbotsford, it's our local Woolworths now where we go.

Tommy: Yeah.

Josh: And I did an intro saying, hey everyone, Tommy's sick, here is a podcast. So, I feel like I was there for that podcast, you weren't. So, I feel like we've both missed one each.

Tommy: No, I think you're right. I'll take one, you take one. How did it feel like when you saw Mr97? He did a great job.

Josh: Well, the funny thing is that when I was saying that I was going to be taking the day, Jess used that moment to tell me that she has only taken 2 sick days in her entire life, which I thought was sort of a dig.

Tommy: Well, I mean, it's impressive. It's what you look for.

Josh: Is it though? During COVID time, we want everyone— we don't want people, you know, working if they're sick.

Tommy: No. If she's worked while she's sick, I don't agree with that. But if she has had a rock solid immune system. Yeah, Mr. 97. Mr. 97 hasn't been sick much at all. He's a young, you know, smoothies, young, young man. And but he's sick at the moment. He's had a COVID test too. So, so you've had a COVID test, you're waiting results. Bree has got hers back, which are negative, which hasn't ruled out the super spreader Jansen potentially. Still not confirmed yet, but hopefully you don't. Hopefully you get your results back tomorrow and we're all ridgididgin. Mr. 97's all good too.

Josh: And, uh, so today there was some exciting, uh, movements within the, the office with our new podcast.

Tommy: Yeah, I mean, some exciting movements all around. Uh, Tully Smyth has joined the podcasting landscape once again, and this time it's, um, through big media company. Yeah, so we're excited.

Josh: And so, uh, Too Much Tully is the name of the podcast. Jess, uh, is her producer. She's in the, uh, in the podcast. Go cheque that out. But, um, yeah, we're currently recording this at, uh, after 8 PM. It's a late one.

Tommy: Yeah, well, yeah, this is probably one of the latest podcasts we've done in, in the last 100 eps, but I, I, I don't think it will be— I think it there may be chance of it happening more because tomorrow I'm moving my setup home. Yeah, because right now in the studio, but then it gives us the ability from, uh, the home setup to do it whenever.

Josh: Well, it's funny, the, the move to being, uh, at home, all of a sudden I have all of the memories of Friday night drinks, DJ Precious. But I'm, I'm feeling extremely comfortable, like my setup, it's like it's all dialled in, it's, it's even neater than it was before. So I'm, I'm actually ready for a long period of time where we're running like this?

Tommy: Well, I think it's— What is it like, military? Or they break you down, build you back up again. I mean, Friday Night Kitchen—

Josh: Do you think I broke you right down?

Tommy: I feel like you're a stronger guy now. I feel like you've got a new turtle shell.

Josh: I did have a moment where I'm like, maybe we bring it back. But I was just like, I don't know if I can do it to myself.

Tommy: It is— a question that we've asked a bunch of guests, uh, what have you learned about yourself in COVID, like during isolation and what's happened with COVID this year? I mean, today around the office it was like, fuck 2020, what a piece of shit, like such a crappy year.

Josh: Why was— who was having— because I wasn't in the office. What— who was saying—

Tommy: well, Jess and I were just saying we could put 2020 in the bin, just having a bitch session about 2020. Yeah. Yeah, just behind its back.

Josh: How did it come up? Like the 2020 can go in the bin?

Tommy: There was a couple of moments. Maybe it's just Jess and I like just bitching on 2020, but we're saying about how as she left and got in her car tonight, we were talking about how she was just saying thanks.

Josh: She cleaned the bird shit off, by the way?

Tommy: No, hasn't yet. She was saying, I was just saying how she has done such a great job being on the podcast with Tully and part of a big media company. And she was just saying how it was always like, uh, how great would this be if COVID wasn't happening? Like, the little wins might feel bigger, or they might not, I don't know. But maybe I think the thinking is what it feels now while we're trying to succeed within this crazy time, like, without that craziness and the world falling apart, this would be like I don't know, you— I think you would celebrate the win maybe more, but maybe not.

Josh: I don't know.

Tommy: It's—

Josh: I don't know. I feel like— don't you think we're able to be more creative because we're talking about this, uh, COVID, in ISO, working from home? Like, I already— I, I got my, um, I put together my exercise bike today and didn't have a blow-up. I did it all on my own without any assistance. And it was just, I did have a moment where I was like, if I was in a, like a Big Brother challenge and like it tested me and there actually wasn't any part of it that was a problem, like the whole thing went smoothly. But even it being smoothly and even only having to install the seat, the pedals and the sort of the arm bit, like the handles, that was enough to freak me out. But I was thinking, I'm made for this ISO life. What's something that you're going to bring in to this new ISO life to make life easier for you?

Tommy: Um, to make it easier for me, I think our setup is— I think what I— to sort of circle back to that question, what have you learned about yourself in ISO? I think it— the answer for me is, um, the uncertainty of the future is scary. And I think we may do a good job at convincing ourselves that we understand where things are going, where we're off to, based on the goals you set and sort of the vision you have. But this year has just really thrown a spanner in the works where you don't unders— like, you don't understand if the economy is going to, you know, the ass is going to fall out. Like, I think the people who probably have got it right are the ones that were become really pessimistic about the future and like, mate, it's not looking good, uh, the economy's got to turn to shit, people are going to lose jobs, there's not going to be much work around. Most of those people have got it right to some degree, and then you could build back up from there. But just understanding that we don't know what's going ahead. So my point being is, circling back again to your question, uh, understanding what it means to work from home we know that, tick. Understanding where we're going based in this new world, I kind of have an understanding of. We, you know, we all as a team, we know this. And so there is a few things that seem more normal now, which it didn't before. It was very fucking unknown.

Josh: Well, even, even though you're saying it's normal, it's, it's anything but normal in Melbourne specifically. So Starting in just over 24 hours, everyone in Melbourne, if you leave your house or if you go to your workplace, you have to wear, as TJ puts it on now, a face mask. Can you hear me?

Tommy: How do I sound?

Josh: Yeah. Well, you sound great. It sounds a little bit muffled.

Tommy: Muffled?

Josh: What do you think? These are the masks that I said were the ones that is from Bree's dad. Dad's business. And I said that whenever you do anything with family, they normally look ridiculous or they're a bit dorky. What do you think?

Tommy: You look like a plasterer, for one. These are made— it says Australia, New Zealand standards, some Eagle brand. But yeah, I mean, this looks better than a $200 fine does on my bank account, because that's the fine that you get for not wearing it. I spoke to a guy at a coffee shop this morning At about 6:45 AM, I was getting some petrol and I thought I'd just go to a local, support local, and chatting to the owner, because they've just opened the window, so the shop's not actually open, they've just got like a coffee machine next to a window, and he was saying that there's been a bunch of his customers that have said, based on the mask thing, I'm not leaving my house. Like, I'm just not going out. It's too much of an annoyance.

Josh: Really?

Tommy: I don't know, think about like older people and they're just like, ah, fuck it, for little things like getting coffee, like going to your favourite joint to pick up your coffee. That seems a bit too hard basket if you're like, oh, I have to put on a mask. I don't know, it's not my approach.

Josh: Is it laziness or is it a self-consciousness?

Tommy: I think it's a bit of everything.

Josh: It's like the reality of it all Or maybe is it, is it part of it just like feeling out of control? Because I have been wondering about the mask stuff. Is it that, uh, we feel like, you know, this whole thing is out of control? And so if you've got an aversion to masks at all, I can see how being told you have to wear a mask, you know, you fucking being a big baby and you're saying no because you've just fucking, you know, you've lost your job and you've had 10 other things happen.

Tommy: Yeah, I'm sure it's a bit of that. I mean, it feels, feels very unnormal. I mean, Jess and I were walking, we both had masks on, and she was like, I can't breathe, can't breathe. But it's like, that is for— imagine that for an elderly person that struggles to breathe already.

Josh: Yeah, no, but then imagine an elderly person gets COVID. But yes, I get what you're saying. Like, it's more just It's the uncomfortable thing. But we're all having to do uncomfortable shit. Like, and the weird thing is, I think that like what I'm finding is the uncomfortable thing for a lot of people is the comfortable thing for me. But the uncomfortable thing for me is normally the comfortable thing. Like for most people, it's like, oh, I want to go out. And I like, I heard Michelle Andrews on Shameless talk about how she just loved going to the dog park and she's like, has an opportunity to see everyone. One. And I just remember looking after a dog that was like the nightmare of the dog situations. I've got to fucking take this dog to a dog park and there's going to be other people.

Tommy: God, I mean, a couple of those storeys thread their way in. Picking up the warm poo. I'm glad I'm not a dog owner. But in terms of masks, I'm happy to wear them. One thing that sort of— I'm not a conspiracy guy at all, however, but I was reading an article that was connecting dots between a big pharma— pharmacy, uh, in Australia, like a big chain that has done like a shitload in sales of masks in Victoria specifically because it's become a legal requirement. And then on the side of the packet of the masks that they choose to sell they're imported from China, specifically Wuhan. And I know it's just like China produces a lot of PPE for the world along with many other things.

Josh: So what's the conspiracy though? What are people saying?

Tommy: Look, so think about it, uh, and so the, the, the—

Josh: that's how any good conspiracy starts. Now fucking think about it, use your fucking head.

Tommy: So there was like, uh, some of the questions early days were, can you get COVID from a delivery that you have purchased online that comes. And so it could be if you pay for Apple products from China. Yeah, yeah, yeah, they decide. But isn't it? And so, I mean, I'm not drawing too much conclusion that you're going to get COVID from wearing a mask that comes from Wuhan, but it's like, I don't think you can even fucking—

Josh: No, you can't even connect it. I don't think it's like—

Tommy: Well, what do you mean you can't connect it? That's what people are doing. My point being is I'm just like, oh my God, the thing that everyone's having to use is a mask that is from a business that comes from China, specifically Wuhan, where the virus came from. Well, that's what they say. Like, isn't that just— that is like crazy coincidence. If, like, if that's what you're going to give it, like, I mean, what do you know about Wuhan?

Josh: Like, the thing is that— isn't— is there a huge amount—

Tommy: Sebastian was there in 2019, late 2019, October.

Josh: Conspiracy theory, Patient One.

Tommy: Uh, I'm sure it's a great place. I watched, I watched some videos of a guy that lived there, and he, you know, like an American or an English guy who was local to the, you know, lived, lived in a small town.

Josh: Well, so the thing is, so reading that, you're not really like— it's entertaining, it's sort of like a fun— oh, like, uh, it's like, you know, getting your tarot cards read or whatever. Um, no offense, but the— but don't you think that it's, it's not a good idea to actually think about it? Like, are you thinking about it on a level of the— like, the way that you're describing it, it's sort of as if you're doing it on some sort of academic research.

Tommy: No, not at all, not at all. If— but I just— so if I think that I have friends that are deep down rabbit holes that they hear that, it means you're going to get something from these masks, which is fucking outrageous.

Josh: But then, so why people get upset? So, if you like, I— Because I can see how it can be fun just to go down that rabbit hole. But then—

Tommy: It's not even fun. It's what your mind instantly does when you hear these things.

Josh: But then if you think about the— If you think about people who are working at hospitals or working, you know, in doctors, nurses, all that sort of stuff who are having to deal with the COVID cases, plus they're always— they're wearing PPE all the time. I don't know, I just feel like the, um, the conversation doesn't seem necessary. I think it's like, that's the one thing I don't get with the US. I just think that it's— I love the US, I love going to the US, but the more I see people fighting over things like, um, masks. I think, are you fucking insane? Like, how selfish can you get?

Tommy: Yeah, but there is a bunch of people, some being on my Facebook page, which I was very blown away by, that are absolutely refusing to wear masks regardless of the fines. And so, who are they?

Josh: I mean, this is why I don't have Facebook anymore. I wonder if it's, um, yeah, what type of person is saying no to masks?

Tommy: This is someone who is into meditation, a yogi, probably leans down the anti-vax movement, you know, to heal yourself, your body's capable, that style. Um, but just loves Facebook. I mean, love posts on Facebook, just like legit saying you don't need meditation, you just need to fucking get off Facebook. Dude, if you want to wear a mask, go ahead. That is what he said. If, if you want to social distance, then do it. That is your right. If you want to lock yourself in a dark room, close all the windows, and pray for a vaccine, then go for it. That is your right. If you want to inject your— if you want to inject untested genetically modified proteins into your body in the hope this will protect you from your environment, I won't 'try and stop you. I won't say anything. It's your body. It's your right.' I mean, then it's just got— I mean, it's going on and on.

Josh: So, but do you think that, like, why are we taking—

Tommy: this is the main one. Yeah, we are being— I believe we are being lied to about the severity of the virus. Let me be clear, I'm not denying people are getting sick. I've done my research. I trust myself and I trust my intelligence. If yoga has taught me anything, it's to speak my truth and stand up for what I believe is right, even if it hurts, even if I stand alone. I believe our rights are under attack, and I will stand up to defend them, even if that angers and upsets many of you. And then more, more and more.

Josh: I mean, the thing is, yeah, I mean, I just, I just don't get it. I don't get the, um, I don't, I don't get the pushback, but I, I feel I could imagine that if you consume that style of content— I didn't spend any time on Twitter. Like, I feel that entering all of that stuff, it doesn't it make life really complex? Like, the thing is, dude, like, how much of the stuff that happens in the world do you just not understand? I don't understand how planes fucking fly. I just, I don't get it. I don't get how, like, even, uh, anything fucking works. I just don't understand how buildings are made. And so why, when like we just assume, like I don't know how a fucking building is made or how it's standing up or don't understand any of it, but I like trust that. I don't understand how, like it seems like super arrogant and obnoxious to, in a time where we're being told by medical professionals 'Hey, do this thing,' for that to be the time to be like, 'Mate, I don't know, I don't agree.' I wonder if it's, it's because it's affecting everyone, as in you're not necessarily directly affected by how a plane goes up into the sky and takes you from A to B.

Tommy: I mean, you want to get on the plane safely and arrive in the other, you know, location. But this is, you know, I think where it's getting to the choices are made for you, which I'm also confused at, as we mentioned earlier in the week or last week, that I'm confused at which side of the political landscape are going hard on certain areas. So this person's very progressive but then is saying absolutely not wearing masks when it's like we're trying to help people. So it's like humans first. I don't know, it's, it's very tiring. It's like law at this, at this point. I've been one to break laws many times, but I'm not fucking willing to do it just because I don't want to wear a mask. Like, I'm not willing to. That's so fucking selfish at this point, because what is the issue? There's no fucking issue. Yeah, just wear a mask.

Josh: And so what are you— how are you staying sane? What are you excited about? What are you doing on the weekends? What are you looking for looking forward to? What are you doing with Bodhi?

Tommy: Um, oh, fuck, just trying to think about what we did over the weekend with Bodhi. Not a great deal. We can't go driving, it's not allowed. Um, we had a fire, that was lovely.

Josh: But is there a certain amount of like— so the having a, a, uh, real, like a realistic outlook on things are going to be tough but then having an overarching optimistic view on how it will all go. Like, I feel like maybe that's where I sort of oscillate between. It's like, oh yeah, I think we're fucked, there's gonna be a lot of issues, but I actually think in the long term we've got to make it work and it's all going to be fine. I wonder, like, frame of mind, where do you see yourself at the moment with this sort of second wave coming in in Victoria?

Tommy: I think it's, um, I mean, there's, as I was saying, there's more clarity about the uncertain future, which is a weird paradox, but you know, the government support is there. Um, but it's, it's definitely now, it's, I think if you haven't swallowed the reality that the future, as in what a new existence in a world where we're thinking about catching things. Like, you know, all you have to do is put on a mask and feel when you're seeing other people and you, and you're just thinking about germs being transmitted via your mouth. And then you're just like, that new world, what that looks like, a sort of a constant thought about what if, what if. I think we're still in that very early stages of that. So I think about What does it look like for Bodhi going to school? What does it look like? I mean, I'm very optimistic that we will make it through whatever this is. Like, fingers, you know, touching wood, none of us get sick. But I also feel like we will make it through regardless with what happens to the economy and all that, you know, our business and all these things. And so I am very optimistic in that. It's, um, I think there's definitely—

Josh: So is it a gratitude thing? Like, do you find that— are you, um, like, uh, I had some good success like a few weeks ago. Like, I don't do it nearly enough, but actually being like, um, let's think about like when I can get into that sort of negative spiral on things or just look at everything. Like, I even find with all the, um, the podcast ranker stuff and then seeing fucking publishers bullshitting and all. I'm just like, fuck these people. And then I'm like, you know what, I, I go from that and I'm like, okay, what am I, what am I doing right now? What am I, where am I putting my energy? This energy could be good, like it can be good in this small period of time if I can then transition out of it to continue on our path doing our thing. But I feel like so much of this is mindset. Have you thought about what it could look like so that you're not in that COVID? Because I feel like I've noticed it just even the last few days, just us talking about these changes, or, you know, like what's happening in Victoria. It's very easy to suddenly get back into that news cycle, speculating on what's going to happen.

Tommy: What's happening is new thoughts for a lot of us. So the thought about masks, and a new thought could be, what is that going to do, the little change of everybody wearing masks? And so then the, the spiral I could have— I reckon I would have gone down early days is like, fuck, like really dark on what it all means and how it will change people's—

Josh: what do you think it all means?

Tommy: What in terms of— so what wearing masks, or what the implementation, implementation of people wearing masks as a, you know, for as a legal requirement, and visually the optics, as you would say, what that does to your mind? It, it shifts things. It shifts how you're, you're feeling when you're out, like just looking around and, and like what's going on? Like, it just— it takes you on a new thought pattern. You haven't had to think about that. And so there's, there's new thinking for a lot of people about what does this all mean, like looking at— looking around at people and sort of interpreting situations.

Josh: So what do you think it all means in terms of—

Tommy: so what I think it all means, I haven't come to a conclusion. My, my mind has just been in thinking about It's like your mind going to new areas of thought. It can be confusing, it can be worrying, or it can just be what it is and you're letting it go. And so I'm more on the— for this one, I'm more at like, oh wow, and then just trying to let it go.

Josh: I mean, this isn't a part of it, like the more you know, the more you realise how little you know. And so it's like a little bit of that as well.

Tommy: Yeah, yeah. I mean, the more you're— the more you know, the more, the, the more you realise how little you know. I'm just— I mean, it's at that point, it's like, how quickly can you let go of something, let go of a thought process that you know is not productive? It's like you're saying, you're getting into that mindset and you know that it could be very counterproductive to your day. And so, I don't know, I haven't stopped meditating. I definitely like see it as a fucking important part of my day.

Josh: Is there a reshuffling of stories? Like, I could imagine like someone who— like, for me, I feel like I love change, so it's worked out okay. But if I was in the stage of, oh, I'm Josh the travelling guy and I'm like travelling around, and I couldn't do that, I could imagine that being tough. Are there storeys that you feel like you need to rework based on what we can actually do in 2020?

Tommy: Yeah, I think definitely. Jess and I was talking this week about having an office, and, you know, the classic rock— being at the office feels like, regardless of if it is productive or not, that you are doing work. That's moving you forward. It might not be, but definitely showing up and clocking in— it's very old school approach. Bums on seats mean equals work, which we definitely know it doesn't. Um, that kind of stuff I, I definitely have felt more, um, embodied and understood more recently, as much as we've talked about that before. Um, you know, the old industrial era of checking, you know, clocking in, clocking out. You know, if you're at the premises, it means that shit's getting done. But, and so yeah, there's that thinking. There's future of work for a business like ours, and, and, and the thinking is more along the lines productively of what is that business that we can create based on shit like this happening? Because this As much as someone would have thought 5 years ago that this could happen, most people weren't really thinking that this was going—

Josh: Well, there's a lot of things that could happen. We could all be nuked. And so, like, the thing is, like, we don't know. You hear a lot of things that could happen, but yeah, being able to actually enter into that space, I feel like, would be exhausting. Do you think that your worry— does your worry lie at an individual level? Do you think it relies— like, lies at a family level, at a Bodhi level, at a company level?

Tommy: My worry, um, I don't know if I feel worried. Like, I don't— I remember the classic, like, had a friend whose mum was always— seemed like a worry wart, just worrying, just fucking freaking, just anxious about everything. Um, I go through periods of times of feeling more anxious and not Um, but then I don't know, I think— I don't— I mean, you experience a bunch of emotions across a day, but I don't feel like I'm worrying. It's more just uncertainty. It would be uncertain, more uncertain about the future for anybody, for us, for anybody.

Josh: Is it a stress thing though? Like, like, what is it? Like, I'm going to look it up, the definition of stress. Do you feel stressed?

Tommy: No, not really. At times, depends on when it is. If it's, uh, but no, like about moving back to our home setup, not stressed at all. Like, it's not because I am, because I can. So what would be the antidote to stress? Feeling like you have, you understand what's about to happen, or that you've been through it before, or that you know that you're equipped with Or do you think, or is it, is part of it just a detachment?

Josh: Like, so for instance, the mask thing, people not wearing masks or not wanting to, um, they don't want to wear masks, that's them being attached to a previous idea that's no longer our reality. And it's an, it's an attachment to the idea of what freedom means, what it means to be an individual what it means to have rights. And so, is part of it being like, I feel a bit fucking detached. I'm like, yeah, I'll do that. Like, whatever. If that's the thing, I like, it feels like a give and take. There's some wins being able to get things like JobKeeper and, you know, like, yeah, I don't know. But maybe it's different because you've got more things that you like. So, with Bode thinking about, okay, well, he doesn't necessarily like, you know, trying to help his experience.

Tommy: He's pretty, he's pretty cool. I was worried about him, just how he would interpret me wearing a mask. And I had a mask on and jumped into the car yesterday, and he was loving it. I said, do you know what this is? He said, that's a, that's a mask. And so he totally gets it. It's a— think about that for a child growing up. It's going to be— that will be quite normal to him in the next 3 weeks, 4 weeks when we're all having to wear masks. Kids don't. You can— kids.

Josh: And so do you think that the reason why he does well is because he's not— he's not— he doesn't have attachment to these things?

Tommy: Well, it's— yeah, he doesn't.

Josh: I mean, the kids are like identity. Yeah, I just wonder how the fuck we can My, um, my biggest thing has been trying to work out how we can build a framework, like the way that we think, so that we can actually do really well. And we can be real about things, and we can understand how lucky we are. We can understand that things are hard, but then we can sort of live a life where we're not sweat— like sweating the small stuff. I feel like a lot of these things, if we actually look at them, we have food, we have like all of these things, um, you know.

Tommy: I think there is a purpose that comes from— there is service from people in this world that have pushed back on things like this in the past. Not saying this specifically, but there is critical thinking towards something, people sticking up for it's our right not to be told what to do. They don't want to live in that kind of a society. I don't know where it fits for now, and I'm sure at the time when people were, you know, saying we're not going to be a part of this, it, it has in the future served the society.

Josh: I think that the hard— but the thing is that, um, it's— it feels like a selfish act Like, the problem with this thinking, the problem of not even shutting things down, like saying, I want to be out and about, like, that decision, the decision to not be responsible, the decision to go out and just live your day normally, is going to have impact in the future because people fucking die and hospitals get overwhelmed. And it means that we can't— it'll take longer before we get back to any form of normality.

Tommy: Yeah, I mean, people are—

Josh: So, is that just short term? Are people just considering like, this feels uncomfortable in the short term, so, but then it feels like it's hurting us longer term?

Tommy: Yeah, I don't have the answer, but I mean, what you can see about this, so what do people say? It's like Sweden have done, you know, herd immunity or look at Florida, not— I mean, they're one of the worst cases of COVID in the world, top 5 if Florida was classed as its own country. They've still got stuff open, yet they have such high cases. And I, and I don't think it's until we look back, until we have enough data in the future, 10 years from now, about what it all meant. I mean, this is where, uh, we're looking at if 1% of the US population died, that's a fuckload of people, and it's still a lot of deaths. But then it's this weird view on, you know, you're referencing flu cases and how many people die per year versus COVID cases and how many people are actually passing away. People are still dying. It's, um, yeah, I don't know.

Josh: I I think it's, um, but it seems like having that the 'I don't know' bit is, I feel like, the stressor. If you can be like, um, not even like 'I don't know,' but it's almost like making a decision to go with, um, the, you know, like the mask thing. Like, I feel like having that thought—

Tommy: I think the people that are saying 'I do know' and then saying 'I'm not wearing masks,' if probably more stressful than the person that just says, I don't know, I'll do what you say. If—

Josh: yeah, well, I think that's the thing. I think like going and being detached and say I'm just going to do it versus— I don't know how much the conspiracy stuff actually serves. Like, I wonder how much— like, fuck off Facebook. I can't be fucked.

Tommy: I mean, I like, I like looking at it. I like—

Josh: but do you? Like, it sounds like, like, I— maybe it's the same thing with me with industry.

Tommy: I've got no interest in—

Josh: But I reckon it definitely does something to you. Like, you completely— It enters you whether you like it or not. I think, like, bringing it up in conversation says that it's— I feel like it's entered probably more. Like, imagine if face masks weren't a thing and we put them on, we fucking did our day, we might actually get shit done. If we're spending every second—

Tommy: Yeah, but that's not good for the community.

Josh: But if we're spending every second going, Fuck, I'm wearing a mask. Oh my God, I can't breathe.

Tommy: I think, yeah, but I think that— I think what you're talking about is everyone will experience the adjustment to it. For me, reading someone who I thought was quite smart do something, it's like, obviously puts me on a different side to them in terms of how I'm approaching my existence and they're approaching theirs.

Josh: Well, don't you think it sort of trivialises or or creates doubt or brings up points rather than just putting—

Tommy: Of course this does. Not for me though. Of course, if anything, it makes me realise that I'm pro-wearing masks and why the fuck didn't they do it 3 months ago.

Josh: It's interesting because my perspective on it is it's like I'm surprised it's even a conversation.

Tommy: Yeah, but that doesn't mean that just because you're surprised that it's not a conversation. There's— I mean, what you have to do is see that there's so many varied thinking in this world, and there's plenty of people that don't believe that COVID's really that bad. It's just like the flu, guys. That's literally what they're saying. And so that's not how we think. So you would— as much as you say that, there is also a heap of views that you're on the other side.

Josh: There's a bunch of people, there's a bunch of people who don't wear seat belts or don't think that it's worth wearing seat belts, right? Is there?

Tommy: Who the fuck are they? I hope I don't know any of them.

Josh: No, there's heaps.

Tommy: Because I've been in a car accident and I reckon it's the seat belt that fucking saved me life.

Josh: So, there is heaps and there was heaps of pushback around the seat belts and, you know, people fucking wearing them. Early days. But even now, the States, like, it's a massive issue. Really? Yes. And so, the thing is, using the seatbelt example, we're not in a car, like we put our seatbelt on, we just go on with our day. We don't, like it's not a thing. We're not saying, hey, like, ah, you don't put your seatbelt on and then say, have a conversation with, yeah, I saw on Facebook that they're like saying this about seatbelts, or maybe they're actually not effective. Maybe not— not only are they not effective, but potentially, um, they could actually do more damage if you're in an accident, right? So just having that conversation, having that thought, all of a sudden creates doubt.

Tommy: There's no smart person saying that. Who the fuck— when you've got someone like Elon Musk, who people look to as the genius of this world, who is talking about we should be opening up, uh, COVID-19 more of a beat up than what's being said. All I'm, all I'm saying is I— there's no smart person saying don't wear a seat belt. There's smart people saying COVID-19 is not as crazy as everyone's talking it to be. That's, that's the confusion at this point. Something like this.

Josh: Changing topics, you're a big fan of Kanye West. What are you thinking about Kanye at the moment? You've said that he's your guy. You're a big fan.

Tommy: There's a difference between Kanye West and Kanye West's music. Kanye West is a human and Kanye West is a musician.

Josh: I'm pretty sure on the show you've spoken about you think that— Remember we said if you had one night left in your life, if you could spend time with Taylor Swift or Kanye West, you would spend it with Kanye.

Tommy: I reckon I'd still spend it with Kanye. Yeah, definitely.

Josh: What do you like about Kanye?

Tommy: About his music?

Josh: So you don't like—

Tommy: he is— so watching him— so what you're referring to is him giving a talk, uh, for the— what is it, like some sort of political rally where he's having an opportunity to speak?

Josh: I don't know, I've just seen some crazy tweet— I've just seen screen grabs of him just being like um, going off his nuts.

Tommy: Yeah, so that's at— so he was— the big news was he was running for president, which he doesn't fit into this year's election or something. And so it was about him giving a talk in Wyoming where, man, I cringed. I watched it and I just had to jump through it, and I was like, oh no, the guy's having a fucking breakdown. He's a— he's bipolar. He's, he's been diagnosed with bipolar before, and he's obviously having some kind of an episode. And I don't know who the fuck lets him do that, but maybe Kanye is just saying, I'm, I'm doing what I want to do. But he's talking about Kim, his wife, and he's talking about the family and abortion. And oh dude, and then what you're talking about is screenshots of tweets and text messages where he's obviously reaching for— reaching out for help. Or like saying, like, it's— someone needs to intervene here. It's so crazy. It's so sad. And, and I guess the media— you— it's interesting to see, like, media is being quite sensitive. Like, they're saying obviously he needs help here.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: And so I've seen a few people like, um, 50 Cent tweet, and then, you know, sort of making fun of it, and then someone writing in 50 cents comments, it's like, is there not enough here that you're realising that he's trying to reach out for help or something? Like, rather than making a joke about this. And so I don't know, man, it's fucking crazy. It's crazy.

Josh: Do you like his music, mate?

Tommy: I love his music.

Josh: Chick-fil-A.

Tommy: Just listening to somebody's Chick-fil-A.

Josh: I think he's a good track, you know, music, musical genius.

Tommy: I just don't know if it's translating to, you know, giving talks on political, you know, political stuff.

Josh: I think we need to, um, potentially bring in the rule around COVID, not even for the show but just for our, for our lives. We need to— we've made the decision that we're going to be, um, working from home. Last time we had the, the luxury of, um being able to focus on the show and original stuff and not focusing on client leads. Whereas now we're sort of like, we want to make sure that after all of the, um, stimulus, uh, packages of happening in Australia with JobKeeper and shit, that we've got a business and it's going well.

Tommy: Yeah, but, uh, get to the other side of that, that's for sure. But, um, and the new podcast, Too Much Tully.

Josh: Go to toomuchtelly.com, subscribe, do all that please.

Tommy: And, uh, yeah, tomorrow I'll be moving home, so I'm going to take all my stuff back to the house tomorrow, set it up while Bodhi's out before he trashes it at night, and we can get a little show in before he gets home.

Josh: And we need to sort the light is too— so I've set up a pole which is great that we got, which goes up, uh, roof to, uh, what do you say, uh, floor to ceiling.

Tommy: It's perfect.

Josh: And so then we can mount the camera, but we haven't got it for the light, so my light isn't ideal at the moment. I'm not happy with it. I think I look shit, but you look all right. No, we just— the light's coming from the angle. It just needs to come over me a little bit more, but we'll fix that. We'll get it there. Anyway, uh, it's the Daily Talk Show. Go cheque out Too Much Tully, give it a review, subscribe. And, uh, tomorrow it's a Hump Day replay, and, uh, there is a twist in regards to the bullshit that was the Letterboxd drop. So you want to cheque that out. They'll be out in the morning. Otherwise, see you tomorrow, guys. Have a good one.

Tommy: See you guys.