Maddy Connors, Yarli Creative

Josh: It's The Daily Talk Show, episode 764.

Tommy: What's happening, guys? What's going on? I'd like to welcome Maddie Connors to the show. Welcome, Maddie.

Maddy: Hi, how are you?

Tommy: Yeah, we're very good. I was very excited because, um, uh, you and I have a bit of a connection. Uh, I know we didn't talk about this off air, but I lived in Shepparton and I know you grew up in Shep too.

Josh: I, uh, yeah, he called himself a Sheplebrity, but I don't know how I'm curious whether you know his voice or whether— be completely honest. Did you listen to the radio?

Maddy: I think I do.

Tommy: Oh yeah, she's got no idea, guys. This is embarrassing for me. I thought you might have recognised me from Star FM in Shepparton, but no, giving out icy cold cans of Coke and things like that.

Josh: So Maddie, we're just talking, you're an Aboriginal artist, and you were saying, now, are you going to do a Welcome to Country? Is that what it's called?

Maddy: So, it's called an acknowledgement when you're not on your country. And anyone can do an acknowledgement, so you don't have to be an Aboriginal person. A Welcome to Country has to be done by a traditional owner of that country that they're doing the welcome on. So for example, I'm a Yorta Yorta, Dja Dja Wurrung, and Gamilaroi woman, so I could do a Welcome to Country on my country, Yorta Yorta country in Shepparton, or Dja Dja Wurrung country in Bendigo area, so around that area. So for an Acknowledgement, generally you would say, "I'd like to acknowledge the Traditional Owners on the land on which I meet today," and whether you know who they are that you're meeting on. So for where I am, I'm meeting on Wurundjeri land, but otherwise you can say I'm meeting on the Kulin nations, the land of the Kulin nations. But there's different ways of sort of unpacking that. It's not too hard, and as I said, anyone can do it. I know that my son does it at kinder as well, and someone was saying before that their little one does it at daycare.

Tommy: My son does it and he gets up the front because they say it and then the kids say it. He's got onto the hot seat and actually says it and gets the other kids to say it too. It's, I mean, it's a big difference from probably when we were at high school, you know, in kinder. I mean, I was blown away that, you know, it's such a sweet thing for these kids to be learning at such a young age because I know that, you know, our generation, younger, weren't learning this stuff in high school, in kindergarten.

Josh: Well, you think about like even the, like the national anthem, you think about the flag, you think about all these things that are like even contradictory to doing that. And so, Matty, with the Welcome to Country or the acknowledgement type of stuff, has that been always something that you've done from a young age or something that's been in sort of the vernacular, or is this something that is and we're only just starting to do it in the last, you know, 10, 15 years?

Maddy: See, I think in community it's been done my whole life, but probably not at high school. I don't recall them doing it at assemblies or anything like that. So I'm 30 this year. I'm not that, I'm not that old, but I'm not that young. And I can't remember them doing acknowledgements. To Country. Occasionally I would, I remember them having an elder come and do a welcome, but that was only for special events that the school would have. Whereas now I feel like people are more like open to having those conversations. So before I went on maternity leave, I worked in government and we would always have acknowledgements before meetings. Occasionally people didn't, and I think there was a real push to make sure that it wasn't tokenistic, but it was something that genuinely people were doing because it's, it's a really important part of, you know, being on someone else's Country. And, you know, that's when we say our Country was— sovereignty was never ceded here, and this is Aboriginal land. So for Aboriginal people, it's really important that we're acknowledging all of that history when we're doing an acknowledgement or a welcome, and we're acknowledging the past wrongs, but also we're acknowledging that it's sacred and we're standing on important ground rather than, you know, just saying, "Hi, welcome to the meeting," sort of thing. You're really acknowledging the true depths of it.

Josh: Is there any place where it's not appropriate to do an acknowledgement?

Maddy: Not that I can think of. Yeah, I'm not sure I'd be the best person to answer that.

Tommy: Was there any way that you'd like to see it done more? If, I mean, on different platforms, social media, these kind of things. Like, I mean, it was the first time you asked us before the show, would you like to do one? And something we'd never considered for the show, which could be our ignorance. And, and it's, you know, part of the learning process for us, which I said, which is why we wanted to chat to you first up about this stuff.

Josh: Even like, I guess that like from a digital, like that whole digital space versus like, so for instance, saying email signatures or saying websites, it feels like it's become a commonplace to see it there. And I think of that why I love the question is because it's I think that there's a bunch of other things that it challenges. So when you do that, you also have to— when you do an acknowledgement, I think it makes you reflect on the content that you do or representation and things like it. So for instance, with the, uh, everything that's happening with the, you know, Black Lives Matter stuff, I think that we tried to work out, okay, it's not just a, a tile on Instagram and you, you know, you do this thing, but what are you actually doing. And so, yeah, I think that, yeah, I do wonder though, these types of things, I think that they actually will really move the needle in a, in an important direction. Because if you're going to acknowledge, then all of a sudden you have to answer all the other questions too. You have to consider the other stuff. You do.

Maddy: Yeah, definitely. And, and also coming, you know, With an acknowledgement, you have to really understand whose country you're on and what's the history there. So it's about, you know, doing a little bit of research and talking to people as well. So you're really educating yourself, learning about our history, and then you're sharing that with those who you're with, or, you know, obviously on the radio or on this show, you're sharing that with your listeners as well. Which can be really powerful, I think, even just in that small sentence, just trying to unpack that. And then it gets other people to think about that as well.

Tommy: Should we do one?

Josh: Yes.

Tommy: I mean, so would you be able to do one for us?

Josh: Well, yeah. So how do we do it? Like if we— So, I feel like the thing around it is you're not wanting to stuff it up or you're not wanting to like all of a sudden you're doing this thing to be respectful. It's like pronouncing names. Like, I just, I always freak out that I'm going to say something wrong or pronounce a name wrong. And so, yeah, what's the gut? Like, if we were to start doing it now, what's the, what do you recommend? Do I just Google? See, I went down already Googling Welcome to Country. I could have fucked things up really, real quick.

Maddy: So, you have to remember.

Tommy: Yeah.

Maddy: You have to remember that it's an acknowledgement to country.

Josh: Yeah.

Maddy: So, welcome to country is an Aboriginal person who's from that land can do.

Josh: Sure.

Maddy: Yep. And then acknowledgement can be done by anyone. So, you're acknowledging the country and that's what you can do and I can do when I'm living here because I'm on someone else's country. So, you would start it by saying, "I would like to start this meeting by acknowledging the traditional owners of the land on which we meet today." And so then you go down that, that's your first sentence, and then you would then either identify who the land you're standing on. And so I think you guys are in— where are you? You're in Melbourne too?

Tommy: Yeah, yeah, Abbotsford. I think you said we're Wurundjeri. That's, uh, yeah, my son's daycare is right near here, and so it's about a k away, so I reckon we're safe there.

Maddy: And so, so then you would say, you would then say I would like to acknowledge the Wurundjeri people of this land. I want to pay my respects to their elders past and present. Or you can say, I want to pay my respects to the elders or any Aboriginal people in the room today. So, it's like, yeah, you're providing that respect.

Josh: Yeah, great.

Tommy: And the Kulin Nation, my son says that, but I haven't understood what the background of that is. What? Are you out? Do you know what that part means?

Maddy: Yeah, so there's 5 clans in the Kulin Nation, and I might get them wrong because I have a lot of information in my head. But Dja Dja Wurrung, so I was telling you before that I'm Dja Dja Wurrung. So, we are one of the Kulin Nations, and so the Kulin Nations are surrounding Melbourne, and it's sort of like, it's really hard to explain. Explain, but it's, yeah, there's 5 clan groups within the Kulin Nations, and we're kind of in close vicinity in a sense. So it was Boon Wurrundjeri, Dja Dja Wurrung, and then there's 2 more, but I really feel bad not knowing that and being able to say that.

Tommy: That's why we have Mason here. When we don't know something, he pulls up everything. He's my brain.

Maddy: I feel, Sorry to anyone who is in the other two, because I have just had a very busy day and like my brain is mush. So I've got a 6-month-old and I'm just a bit sleep deprived at the moment.

Josh: And getting the iPad working.

Tommy: I feel you. I feel you. In a state like that, where does your creativity sit? You know, some people find creativity in pain or like sleep deprived or cramming last minute or something like that. Where does your creativity sit? Creativity shine? What state?

Maddy: Yeah, that's a hard one because lately I've been really good and really happy. So generally, when I was younger, my creativity came from pain, and, um, I've suffered with depression and anxiety for a very long time. And so a lot of my creativity, whether it was writing or painting or drawing, would come from that pain. That I felt. But I think my creativity also comes from my culture and being connected to something that's bigger and greater. And I feel like I'm connected to something that you can't see, and it's something that you can feel. So when I sit down to paint, I'm just letting go of anything in my head, any of that monkey chatter that you get, and just trying to allow it to happen, basically. So I just— I'll sit down and, and all of a sudden something will come to me and I'll start painting. Or I'm also— I also do digital artwork as well. Generally with the digital stuff, I'll draw first. So I'll draw with just a pen on lined paper, so it's really sketchy, and then I'll basically turn that into a digital piece.

Josh: As an Aboriginal woman, if you're facing mental health challenges, is the system that's set up, does that support your culture and do you get what you need out of it? Or are there specialised places where you go to seek help? So say, I guess, like I would go to a psychologist or something like that. Are people equipped to, you know, to communicate and to work through those things?

Maddy: I think there's a real gap in our mental health space, which that's for everybody, but particularly for Aboriginal people. We have, you know, there are different healing methods and we're not able to practise those as much in modern society. And I also don't think there's enough emphasis put on our culture being being something that is able to provide us with our positive mental health. Like, you know, we're able to practise those traditions where it's making us feel like we're connected. Yeah, there's— I think there's a— like, I can't speak my own language, which then plays on my identity, and then that plays into your mental health because You know, it's sort of like a snowball effect because my language has been not, you know, kept and it's not as important, I guess, in modern society, whereas it's been lost and stolen from us, where it just makes it a lot harder to really grasp who you are. I don't know if that's making sense, but it makes sense to me.

Tommy: Yeah, it does. It does. And so, I mean, we've spoken a lot about mental health. On this show, and, you know, everyone's, I guess, battle or challenge with it is unique. And so for you, you mentioned it was when you were young. I mean, was it a realization? So for me personally, I don't think I've identified with having anxiety, and I didn't when I was younger, but as I get older, I'm like, fuck, that's what that is. And maybe I'm just equipped with understanding what it means. For you, when you were younger, what was your experience like with mental health?

Maddy: Yeah, I probably didn't know that it was what it was, um, not until I was a bit older. I always knew that I was anxious, but it was not formally diagnosed until, um, I had a death in the family, and then I guess it started from there. And experiencing death or, um, so family violence I've also experienced as a young person. It, it, those traumas that it leaves with you, um, are just long, long-lasting and long-standing, you know. They have an effect on you, and whether that's, you know, that it's happening or it's just something that's subconscious. And I think mine was subconscious, like it would just come out in different ways. But that's why I've always had this creative flair and I've always tried to express myself through my creativity. When I was younger, I did photography and also painting and drawing and writing. So, I was always very creative.

Josh: And so, you recently started Yali Creative and sort of turning this more into a business or something. That you do for work. How have you found the transition of going for having it as sort of a passion project to be something where there's clients and you're dealing with, you know, finances and all that sort of stuff?

Maddy: Yeah, so it's— my website's only been going now for 19 or 20 days, which is exciting. But before that, I was working with organisations to bring their reconciliation plans or their reports and stuff like that to life. So I would do the digital designs for them, and I was working with big organisations or big corporate sort of people to bring those documents to life. And I was doing some custom pieces on the side as well. So I was kind of already doing the stuff that I'm doing now, but I think now it's on a bit of a larger scale because I'm getting a bit more traction on Instagram now that I've got an Instagram page directly for Yarli Creative, which is yarli_creative. Um, and then my website, um, is actually, you know, getting a lot of movement as well, and Facebook. Um, so my website is www.yarlicreative.com.au, and I have my prints on there and my hoodies and also Yeah, my corporate service stuff that I do as well.

Tommy: I love it.

Maddy: But yeah, busy. And because I'm on maternity leave at the moment, so you wouldn't think that I would be on maternity leave. But yeah, so I'm on— I had my daughter, she's almost 7 months and I've got a 4-year-old son, but had my daughter 7 months ago. And yeah, just sort of when we went into isolation and into COVID, I needed something to distract me from being stuck inside, um, all the time. And because I'm very social and I'm an extrovert, I was struggling with not being able to go and see friends and family or get out of the house more and go to the shopping centres or talk to people. And also I find being, you know, my, my bubbly self who wants to talk to everyone, I— yeah, I was kind of trapped inside. Like, I have my partner and my kids, but there's only so much you can talk about.

Tommy: I know, I know. They start to annoy you, to be honest. That's my experience, as much as I love them. You mentioned about the, like, the monkey chatter, and so the creative process actually helps you sort of— it's cathartic to some degree. I know that creatives on the other side, when it comes to showing your work and creating a website, actually putting yourself out there, how do you go? What's your I mean, do you feel confident in that space, or are you like a lot of us creatives that, you know, get a bit scared once you've actually put something out to the world? You're like, oh no, what have I done?

Maddy: Yeah, yeah, I, I have— like, I may seem like I'm confident sometimes. People will say, oh, you're really confident, but in actual fact I'm not. So I think I'm working on that now. I'm working on that really hard to try and see my worth as an Aboriginal person, as a mother, and as an artist, as an everything. So I'm trying to just see my worth and really build my confidence in that space because I'm getting positive feedback. And I generally, I used to post things just on my Facebook to friends and family to see what their reactions were, and that kind of helped, I guess, build a little bit of confidence. And then I went to a women's business retreat just before COVID happened through an organisation called Nagamilly, who support Aboriginal businesses, whether you're a startup business or you're, you know, fully established. They had a women's retreat for mums who wanted to sort of get into business, could take your children with you. And we went and we learned about different things to do with business. And it was there that I actually started to really build connections with other women who felt the same but wanted to do the same things and build themselves up and create financial freedom for them and their family. And I got confidence from those women in that space, which was really nice. And since then, I've just stayed friends with some of the women I've met, and I'm, you know, constantly chatting to Nagamilie and. And yeah, they've just actually really helped me to be able to build that from the ground up.

Tommy: When it's all in your head and you're thinking, oh, what, this is just me right now. And then you realise that other people, even people who are out there putting stuff out, are feeling the same thing. It's like the brave person you see is also experiencing the self-doubt. And I mean, that's, that's community, right? When you start surrounding yourself with people who are all giving it a crack, you're like, yeah, yeah, I can give this a crack as well.

Josh: What does community look like for you?

Maddy: For me, it's very, very big. And it's the Aboriginal community from where I'm from or from now my Melbourne Aboriginal community, very diverse. Or I've got community who are in Swan Hill, who are in Warrnambool, who are in Geelong. It's very, very broad, and even interstate. So I've met a lot of Aboriginal people on different leadership things that I've been on, as you know, when I was in high school and things, and I've kept friends with. And you just have this different connection with them when you, you go on these retreats or you go on these leadership courses, or, you know, you meet other mob. You're just instantly there's something that draws you to people in those groups. I don't know what it is. It's just that really strong connection. Like, it is there. Whereas when I go on to like a leadership thing with non-Aboriginal people, I don't have that same feeling.

Josh: Is it shared trauma, do you think? Do you think there's like part of it which is like you've gone through some of the same feelings or experiences?

Maddy: Yeah, I think it would be some of the same things. So, you know, you can relate to people on a number of different reasons, and one of those could be, you know, because I've got fairer skin, I often— well, then we start talking about being fair-skinned Blackfellas, and then, you know, you start creating a friendship with that person, or you talk about what happened in school, and often it can be started on a negative, but then it turns into a positive friendship that you then build each other up and you give each other strength where you need it. And I think it's really beautiful, like in the community, in the Aboriginal communities, when we can build each other up and really empower each other. But yeah, I think that's definitely something that is unique.

Josh: The style or aesthetic of your artwork, like when I think about Aboriginal art, that sort of like the distinct sort of dotted effect, like really, like I feel like when I see that, like I can straight away sort of say, okay, like that's Aboriginal artwork. What is the broader actual like reality of Aboriginal artwork? What does it look like and how do you even learn about it? Is it something that's passed down?

Maddy: So, for Victorian mob, we don't generally, like, do dot painting. So, a lot of the time dot painting is connected to mobs in other parts of Australia. So, Victorian is very lineal. We have adapted some of the dots, obviously. You'll see some Victorian Aboriginal people will use dots and that's which is totally fine. But the, I think the traditional Victorian way for Aboriginal people was lineal, very lineal lines and the hatching. But yeah, I, when you talk about where did I learn it, I grew up around the corner from my auntie. So she was my, my brother and sister's auntie, not my auntie, but we call them auntie. So if they're an elder, she's an auntie. And I used to go around to her house and she would paint and paint and I would watch and learn and ask questions and then just absorbing all of that and then talking to other family members. And I just kind of, yeah, I just learnt it and took it on from them and learning and watching. And I think I was only about 10 I'd ride my bike around to her house and just learn what she was doing. And yeah.

Tommy: You mentioned previously off the show about Aboriginal art all has storeys behind it. What, I mean, in terms, you know, because I can, for me, I can, I think we're all great at looking at something and sort of forming a story. Is that how do you go about creating something? Is it based off a storey that you've heard and then you're getting inspiration from that and then the storey translates onto the paper or canvas or digital? How's the process work?

Maddy: It's different for the different mediums. It's different for different people. So for myself, for example, like if I was to work with an organization, they would give me a brief about what it is they want to, like what message they want to deliver, what vision they have. And then I'd turn that into a storey of my own, I guess, and I would reflect from my ancestors and the community and my grandpeople, like my grandparents and people before me. And I'd just try and really get in the moment of what is this message and how will it be translated to community? So it's an interesting process when I have to work with the organisations but it's really quite nice and unique because I'm able to then adapt it and make it really grassroots and try and take that and turn it into something that's gonna be seen by Aboriginal people as something beautiful, but also the storey is very, it connects them. And then for my own stuff, the storeys that I'm telling I'm more personal, more personal about myself, about my family, my community, me as a mother, me as an Aboriginal woman. Yeah, so it's really personal, I think. Some people will have stories, I guess, that their old people have told them, and then they turn that into a creation. But yeah, mine so far have been of my experiences.

Josh: How do you feel about, like, I'm very wary of throwing all the Aboriginal questions, like, you know, you're here and then all of a sudden you're meant to be this, like, representative for everything Aboriginal. What's your take on people asking questions in a respectful way or, you know, being interested versus being like, hey, maybe you should actually just read a book on this?

Maddy: Yeah, that's— it's really hard. That's a hard one because, you know, I really like to help people and bring people on a journey and talk to people, but, um, not everybody likes to, and they might have different pains that come with that or triggers that have been connected to that. So I think it's just about being genuinely interested in Aboriginal culture and having a genuine yearning to learn, um, and really wanting to know. And I think just taking it slow. So it's all about body language. If you can read that someone's not comfortable with the conversation, it's probably best to steer to a different conversation. But yeah, it's probably like— I'm, I'm okay with answering questions, it's— and especially if it's genuine. But if it's those questions that Aboriginal people sometimes get. Like, for example, I've had, "Well, how much percentage are you?" or "How much Aboriginal are you?" Those sort of questions are really uncomfortable, and we don't talk about percentage, nor do we talk about how much Aboriginal somebody is. It's about what's inside. And as I was saying off air. One of the analogies I like to use is, you know how coffee is black and you add a little bit of milk? Well, it's still coffee, isn't it? Well, I just have a lot of milk in my coffee.

Tommy: Until you add sugar. I mean, that could be a problem.

Maddy: Well, that could be, you know.

Josh: And so, with— I wonder about like, say, with international travel. Whenever I'm travelling, I realise how much I don't know. About Australia when people just ask the most basic questions. Have you travelled much overseas and do you have a perception on what the global perspective is on Australia? And like, do you think we'll ever get to a point where people are understanding the, you know, the stories?

Maddy: I hope so. I am. So, I've only been to a few places. I went to Thailand once. When I was 21. That was my first trip overseas. And then I also did, when I was at uni, I went over to Canada and New Zealand, and it was actually with uni. The subject was called Being Indigenous in a Global World, and we learned about the Māori people in New Zealand and then the First Peoples in Canada. So the Aboriginal, Canadian Aboriginal people, and it was really interesting to compare and contrast the different histories and then look at who's, who's had a bit more progression, like what countries had more progression. And that was really interesting because Australian Aboriginal culture is the longest standing culture in the world, yet I felt from a personal perspective, New Zealand was far more advanced with, um, like, in embracing their First Peoples culture. And which is something that, you know, I would love to see, you know, languages taught in schools or people being able to speak their language. Like I was saying before, I can't speak my languages and I'm learning slowly um, which is amazing that I'm now— I'm able to. But, um, yeah, it's, it's just unfortunate that we don't have the similar sort of push from our leaders to have a similar situation to New Zealand. Although I, I do understand New Zealand has a way to go and there's still disadvantages as well. Um, looking from afar, they just seem to have it's sorted a little bit better than us.

Tommy: And when it comes to, um, you and your— and what you decide to parent your two little bubbas, how is, um, how is there a thought on maybe what was missing from what you learned or the lessons that you've pulled on that you think they should know? How do you go parenting in that respect?

Maddy: I just make sure my son knows who he is and help him to see his identity as being an Aboriginal person in the world. So I'm talking about my son because we've had those conversations already. As I was saying, he has gone to kinder and he's said, because he refers to himself as a blackfella or black, he's gone to kinder and his friends, obviously 4-year-olds don't understand actual you know, these sort of discussions. And so his friends have told him that he's not, he's not black. And so he's come home—

Josh: 4-year-olds can be little assholes, can't they? That's one thing that we've worked out through Tommy's son, Bodhi. Yeah. So let's not base everything on what 4-year-olds say.

Maddy: They take things very literally. So, I guess it's hard for them to really grasp the whole um, understanding it's actually what's inside. So that's what I'm trying to teach my son. It's— I'm saying, you know, it's about what's inside. And we have that discussion, and he's, he's understanding it. It's just how he's conveying that to other people, um, and he's trying to get his message across because he gets quite angry when people say that he's not a blackfella. And he has been quite cross, um, which is cute, but it's really— it's hard because I, I I didn't realise I'd have to have this conversation quite as early as I am. I've always wanted to make sure that he knew who he was, and we have those discussions. We've got books. We, you know, when I was younger, there wasn't as many books to sort of unpack those truths and unpack the history in a way that is appropriate for the age that they are. And so I've taken him to rallies, so the The NAIDOC March, I take him to that every year, January 26th. I'll take him to that march about Change the Date. So we, we take him to things, take him to festivals and cultural activities. He had a Welcome Baby to Country when he was 6 months old, so welcoming the baby to the country that he was born on. So yeah, there's lots of things that I'm trying to do to make sure that both my children and my partner and family understand, you know, my culture and my history and my family's culture and history.

Tommy: I feel like when I was living in Shep, there was a big push around, you know, community and understanding. What was your experience growing up in Shepparton?

Maddy: Yeah, I had a good experience. The school I went to was very diverse and So I went to Maguire for a little bit when I was in high school, but then I went— after that I went to Golden Valley Grammar. So that was a little bit different in my last 2 years of schooling. That was very different compared to where I went before that. Obviously you would know that.

Tommy: Yeah, who was on the radio at that time? Just trying to work out who fucking took my glory.

Josh: You don't remember, do you?

Maddy: I finished high school in 2009, I think. We— yeah, who would have been on then?

Tommy: Oh, Jordan and Steph were before us. There's some— a couple of other guys.

Josh: Good Shepherd and Bad Shepherd.

Tommy: When did you leave? I'm just trying to see if there was any crossover.

Maddy: I left when I was 21, turning 22, so I'm 30 this year. Anyone good at maths?

Tommy: Yeah, I think, I think I missed you. I think I missed you.

Josh: I'm just being stupid.

Tommy: It would have been nice to get, you know, someone to back up my storey that I was in Shepparton.

Josh: He takes any opportunity.

Maddy: Why do you want to say that now?

Tommy: No, it's a running joke that I always bring up.

Josh: It's not a joke. No, don't pretend it's a joke.

Tommy: It's always a joke.

Josh: And so I was reading about like the importance of storytelling through voice and sharing stories. How do you do that in 2020? Like, is things like podcasting and like Marlee Silver, who we've had on the show before, she's got a podcast and it feels like it's a great platform to get people talking about their stories. What is it? What does it look like at the moment?

Maddy: Yeah, I think you You're totally right. You know, the modern world that we live in, where— and especially going into COVID, we had to really adapt how we got our messages across. And that was through social media as a big push, you know, Instagram, Facebook, Twitter. And then obviously you've got podcasts as well. So there's definitely— we've definitely got some modernization, I guess you could say. But, yeah.

Josh: So, around the campfire stuff, is that like a— I guess one of my questions is around the clichés that we fall into around what it looks like. You know, you think about Aboriginals and you think about the, you know, in the sort of the red dirt or in sort of Greenland and all that sort of thing and being like connected to country and having, you know, fires and stuff like that. Is there Is there a "modern" culture to being Aboriginal, or do you think that it's actually about going back to the— an original state of what it was like day to day?

Maddy: I don't know. I just— I think that that's a really hard question because we can't ever go back and fix everything. But we can connect to the land that we do have, and we need to make sure we protect the land that we do have and hold on to our sacred sites and what there still is that hasn't been destroyed. So I think that's a really tricky question because yes, we live in a modern world and we have— we've had to adapt to the modern world But we do still have our connections to the country and we still, you know, even Melbourne as a country, that was a country for Wurundjeri people. And when you look around, you can't see it as much as you would like. And I can only speak for myself, not for anybody else, but, you know, we just don't have as much available, like, and I don't think, it's been put enough emphasis by our leaders and our councils and, you know, really making sure that people can see that this is Aboriginal land.

Josh: And what does that look like to you, do you think?

Maddy: I don't know. That's a hard question too. You're asking me all the hard ones.

Tommy: Is it preservation of land? So, you know, Melbourne is becoming built up and it's, you know, second major city in Australia. And, and it's, um, well, there doesn't feel—

Josh: you look at Hoddle Street and you don't think like spiritual, right? Like the thing, like you look at something, you see, well, you see like the, you know, you see all these different things and you're like, okay, even, even I walking somewhere in a park or greenery can feel the difference than say somewhere that's you know, got cars everywhere and things like that. So, but is that a cliché or an oversimplification?

Maddy: I don't think it's necessarily a simplification or, yeah, a stereotype. But I do think that, as I said, you know, we have to, we've had to adapt to the modern world, but we still can have our connections and we can still go to the places that we feel grounded. And that can look different for everybody. You know, for me, it's just about being surrounded by gum trees because where I'm from, gum trees are very prominent and that's my country, you know, gum trees and the river. If I need to go somewhere, I'm in the eastern suburbs, I'll probably go to the river where there's trees and feel that energy around me if I can't get back home. Back to Sherpa, back to my country where I grew up and where I feel like I felt most connected. And I guess, yeah, it's very, probably very different for everyone, and that could be different for people who are from the Stolen Generation, you know, because they might feel connected to something in a different way, a country that's not theirs, but they feel connected. In a sense. So, it's a really hard question. That's why I'm saying it's very complex.

Josh: Yeah.

Maddy: So, I don't know what to say.

Josh: So, individual, I guess, too. Like, I think that the hard bit is it's like when you have a massive complex thing, it's impossible to represent everything. It's like in any, you know, being part of any group is it's like there's going to be people who are are really traditionalists or that don't like— so I guess like even say e-commerce, are there people within your community who it's like, I don't want to sell the art online or do things like that? Like, is that a consideration?

Maddy: Yeah, of course. Yeah, definitely. Some people might not want to sell their art or want to hold that close, and that's fine. That's an individual thing, and that's their connection to their space and their creation. It's, yeah, I'm only speaking from my experience. And yeah, I guess I'm wanting to share it as much as I can, but also I do have storeys that go with them that I want people to realise and feel connected to as well. Yeah.

Tommy: Digital art versus, you know, classic paint and canvas. What's, um, what is your preferred style? Only because I'm just thinking you can really sort of rub out on digital. I'd just be, I'd just be erasing too much, whereas you gotta, you gotta commit when you're doing a canvas. What is that for you?

Maddy: My preference would be acrylic on canvas. I love the, the physical feeling of actually painting and, and creating. And, and, you know, as you said, you can't rub it out, you've got to roll with it. Um, I do like digital, and, and it's only been in the last 4 years that I've really taken digital on and ran with that. I did digital in high school, so a while ago now. But yeah, when my son was born, I just didn't have the space to be able to paint like physically paint with canvas and acrylic. Um, so that's when I started to really dive into the digital world and, and still be able to use it as a creative outlet, um, but in a different way. And then when he got older, he would try and grab my paints, and so digital was just easier. He now joins in with me as well. Like, I've got one of my paintings up and I've named it Marley. That's my son's name, um, and he helped me paint that one, so we did a bit of a collaboration together. So that was really special. Um, but yeah, I love it.

Tommy: I love your, your business name is the blend of your two children, which I think is— yeah, it's clever. I've got to have another one to then have a business blending the two.

Maddy: It's, um, see, if I have another, what am I going to do?

Tommy: Oh, get a new domain.

Josh: Yeah, exactly.

Tommy: Just get a hyphen domain.

Josh: A redirect or something.

Tommy: But don't, don't, don't redo the business structure. It's already locked in. The tax department now would know you as your business.

Josh: And, and so what's the, um, I feel like there's obviously a groundswell of change that's happening. Like, I don't, like, even beyond social media, all that sort of stuff, I think people are like, it seems like a different time than any time before in regards to understanding these things. And people who haven't been speaking about these issues and now speaking about them. And it's— I don't know whether it's in sort of my bubble, but it feels like change is happening. What do you think is the, the prompter or question for people who are wanting to see change, or wanting, or realising that they've been part of a system that has, you know, been sort of negative towards a whole culture What do you think are some of the things that we could be asking ourselves or just prompt us to be thinking about? I know it's a big one. And I know it's— this is the classic, like, but I just think like it. And I guess the thing is like there's no right answer. Like there's only your perspective. And that's what we're interested in is it's like through everything that you've been through, through the day-to-day life that you have, through all your experiences. What are the actual personal things? Not speaking for a whole community, but thinking of speaking from your personal experience and thoughts. What do you think some of those prompters are?

Maddy: I think it would be a genuine— so, coming from the heart, from someone who wants to really understand. If they've grown up and gone to school and not had any of that education about our history in Australia, then it would need to be a genuine want and a genuine feeling that they want to really understand what's happened to our country. I think it has to come from a genuine place. It can't just be the new thing that's trending or anything like that. It really needs to be, you need to understand, you need to take it slow but need to understand and If someone doesn't want to talk, then maybe try a different method. So that's about reading books, that's about watching documentaries, that's about understanding your local content first, so the local Aboriginal people from where you live, and then branching out to national, and then really just understanding the language that you use. For example, Something that grates me is that people use lowercase 'a' for Aboriginal and lowercase 'i' for Indigenous when it should be uppercase because it's explaining a group of people. So for, you know, Australian, you use a capital 'A'. For Indian, you use a capital 'I'. You know, all of those sort of things. For countries, you use capitals, and it's the same for Aboriginal people. And for me, that would be, you know, the news platforms also changing their, um, they have some sort of directory thing that they use when they're writing, the journalists are writing, and apparently it should just be, yeah, it should just do that automatically within their, um, I can't remember what it's called, but within their like, um, style guide.

Josh: Yeah, okay.

Maddy: Yeah, yeah, their style guide, they have Indigenous with a lowercase i. So, in all of the media stuff you'll see Indigenous with a lowercase i or Aboriginal with a lowercase a. And I think even that, you know, it's just the smallest thing, but if you can just acknowledge that we are people and that lowercase comes from history, it's a historical thing.

Josh: So— Is there a good place from a content perspective of like consuming stuff? Because I think that probably there's a lot more consuming and listening rather than even talking that needs to happen. Where do you find the good places to be able to— where do you send people? If you're like Hamble, it's like, okay, you've asked too many questions. I just want to enjoy my muffin at muffin break or whatever. Where do you like— what do you tell— where do you send people?

Maddy: Oh, that's really hard to It would have to depend on the context, what people were wanting to know. So, yeah.

Josh: What about like a system, for instance? Like, I think about like, okay, what mainstream media is and thinking about, okay, tuning into The Project or whatever and seeing sort of a very white panel or seeing like having a very specific viewpoint. I wonder like if we were to re— if we were to completely shuffle the system around what we're consuming. And it's like, oh, like, let's replace, uh, The Footy Show with this show, or this with that, and create our own version of mainstream. Is like, so not even an education piece necessarily, but just what we consider stuff that we watch.

Maddy: Yeah, changing the system. That's what we want, to change that system, to include people from diverse backgrounds, and that includes a number of different things. But, um, like, NITV would be one of the starting points, I guess you could say. Um, there's other places that you can look. Um, there's a whole range of things. I just— yeah, I'm really— I'm stuck on what to give you. I could probably email you a whole bunch of stuff and then you could like give it to your listeners, if that would work.

Josh: Yeah, no, I think like— I think it makes sense as well. Like, I think that when you're in it and around it, and it's not really like, like, it's a, it's a hard question to answer. And there is a lot. I think that the other thing too is there is so much information that is out there. Like, you just have to go on Instagram, seeing how many things people are sending and all of that sort of stuff.

Tommy: But I mean, for you, for what you're saying, Josh, like the mainstream, if you watch telly at night, which is Channel 10, and on the way to work you're listening this radio station, that becomes the mainstream is that for you.

Josh: And so for people to even veer outside of their own mainstream, that's, I guess, what I guess is like, I guess like part of it is like, okay, you can read like White Fragility, I think is the audiobook I'm listening to at the moment. Like you can listen to all these different things or consume these types of things. But then I feel like the secondary thing is beyond just education. And it's more just like changing what you perceive to be normal. So it's actually like having comedians or, you know, diverse people in that way as well, which—

Tommy: I think conversation, like, forgive us for, you know, we're clunky as hell at the start of the episode. But I think like for me personally, the way I learn is through that clunky process or misstepping in some direction and then just thinking back on my own experience and saying, okay, well, that, you know, you gotta start to sort of adjust course, and that's— and that is a part of the process. And you see why people don't, because clunkiness can sometimes feel not great, but that's not a reason to not take the steps, right?

Maddy: Yeah, of course. And I think as, as I'm listening to you say that, you have a genuine genuine interest, so a genuine yearning to learn and want to understand the history. And I think that's it. You need to just be genuine. You can't— like, the clunkiness might happen, and that's fine. It's just take it slow. It's fine. It's— you're taking a step somewhere in the right direction, and I think that's the best thing.

Josh: Appreciate you allowing us to ask you annoying, dumb questions.

Maddy: Oh, don't worry, I've had plenty more.

Josh: You're gonna have to— you're gonna do a great piece of art, I feel, after this, just to let out all the tension. And so what's the— and so your website, people can buy artwork. Any, any tips around buying And like, this is a very basic one. Indigenous, Aboriginal, they obviously get— they seem to be used interchangeably. Is there any sort of advice on that? So obviously, like, we've referred to Aboriginal artists, all that sort of thing. When should people say Indigenous versus Aboriginal and those types of things? And then any tips on buying Indigenous artwork?

Maddy: See, I would prefer people say Aboriginal. Yeah, I'm not a big fan of Indigenous, but that's personal preference. So I would say First Nations or Aboriginal or my mobs, so like Yorta Yorta, Dja Dja Wurrung, or Gamilaroi. Um, that's how I would identify. Um, so that was to answer your first question. But to answer the second question, it would be probably to do a bit of research on what the organisation was and who was running the organization. So trying to figure out, and it's probably really challenging, but you could always ask another Aboriginal person if you had a friend or a colleague or anything like that, or even just Google, try and Google. It's a bit hard, but making sure that the company you're buying from is owned and run by Aboriginal people, or they have, like, that would be the first and foremost, owned and run by an Aboriginal person. Second would be whether the artists were being paid for the artwork and they're being acknowledged in the actual pieces that are being produced. So if it was a non-Aboriginal person running the organization, which I would probably say go for the first. But if it was a non-Aboriginal person running the organization, yeah, just making sure that those artists are getting paid properly and they're getting the recognition that they deserve and are entitled to as Aboriginal people and as the artists of that work.

Tommy: Yeah. So you buy direct, you can buy from your website. I saw you've got some some great prints, and you got your hoodie on. Are you selling those hoodies?

Maddy: Yes, there we go. So this is the hoodie.

Josh: Looks great.

Maddy: I did the artwork on this. Um, and yeah, so it all— for the pre-sale that I've just done, I'm donating some of the profits, or 10% of the profits, to Change the Record, which is really exciting. We made $750 for Change the Record, so I'll be donating that straight to them.

Tommy: Epic.

Maddy: They're an organisation that invests in early intervention, prevention, and diversion strategies in the criminal justice system. They're Australia's— sorry, I'm reading my notes— they're Australia's only national Aboriginal-led justice coalition of Aboriginal peak bodies and non-Aboriginal allies. So they're a strength-based organisation, and that was what I was, you know, wanting to find. With a public health degree, I'm all about prevention. So yeah, it was really important to me and my values, but I wanted to make sure that I was giving back where I could.

Josh: Thanks so much for being so generous with us today, Maddie. It's—

Maddy: that's all right.

Josh: Yeah, I feel like, as TJ said, we They're such important conversations. And it's like the clunkiness is part of it all. But appreciate you taking the time today. And if people want to get the artwork, it's Yarli Creative. If they just Google that, it all comes up there.

Maddy: Yes, it's Y-A-R-L-I Creative.

Josh: Perfect.

Maddy: But yeah, thank you so much for having me on.

Josh: Awesome. It's a Daily Talk Show. hi@thedailytalkshow.com is the email address. If you have any suggestions of who we should have on the show, let us know. Otherwise, we'll see you tomorrow, guys. Have a good one.

Tommy: See ya.