Crystal Andrews On Building Zee Feed

Tommy: The Daily Talk Show.

Josh: It's The Daily Talk Show, episode 753.

Tommy: Welcome to the show, Crystal Andrews.

Crystal: You're back. Hi, I'm back. This is my third time on the show. To be honest, I've been up on, um, Ash Williams.

Tommy: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I think he's done for the show, so all you need is more than four because he's— I'm pretty sure he's refused to come back on the show.

Josh: You are the replacement, I believe, across the board. I'm getting a lot of calls because I think you are the, um, the replacement for Just as much influence as Ash Williams.

Crystal: Yeah, I mean, I'm getting there.

Josh: So, first of all, I was on your podcast that hasn't been released yet.

Tommy: I want to listen. When's it coming out?

Josh: Yeah, when does it come out and what is it called?

Crystal: It's coming out this month, but this month depends how quickly I can move, and it's called Debatable, which is very on brand for me.

Josh: 'Cause you wrote a book all about how to win any argument. And so, the whole debate thing makes sense. But you were telling me on the show that when you left our studio after being a guest on our show, you were in tears. I didn't actually—

Crystal: Yes, I was.

Josh: I didn't actually go into the, like the actual, I think it caught me off guard that I didn't actually ask why.

Tommy: Was it me?

Crystal: It was, look, it was something you said. No, so this was— This was when I was on the show in January 2020, which I know, Josh, we also had a conversation about how that felt like it was 2 years ago and not, you know, 5 months ago.

Tommy: Josh did mention that it was this year. That is ridiculous. I saw a photo of us. We just posted recently a photo of us in— it was one of the first sort of shows in our studio, which was only last year. I was thinking, imagine if we knew what was ahead. Like what you'd be thinking. It's such a weird time to look back on moments just before the world has sort of gone a bit chaotic and thinking about what our headspace was.

Josh: So naive.

Tommy: And that was just, what, 6, not even 6 months ago.

Josh: Yeah, and so 6 months ago. 5 months ago. Yeah, you were in Melbourne, you live in Sydney, you come on the show, why are you in tears?

Crystal: A few factors went into this. Firstly, it was a pretty, it was a hectic day. So I'd flown in in the morning, had sort of meetings all day, came to do the show with you guys, and then got straight on a cab back to the airport to fly back to Sydney that night. So it's kind of a long day and by the time I got home, it was maybe 8 o'clock. But as soon as I left the studio, I started thinking about everything that I had said and I've just gone, I fucked it up. Fucked it up. I sounded like an idiot, I can't believe it. And then you have, you know, it's a relatively long journey from Melbourne city to the airport, so you have a lot of time just to think about it. Got on the phone to my boyfriend, told him what's happened.

Tommy: He's like, where are they? What's the address?

Crystal: He's like, I'm sure you're fine, but I've got the plane, the flight back. By the time I walked into the apartment, I was honestly in tears, and he's just gone, obviously, you know, I'm sure it's not that bad, I'm sure you did fine, and you know, look, you've just got to put yourself out there and try these things. It's not always going to be perfect. But by the time we listened to the episode the next day, it was obviously fine. But it just was the most bizarre disconnect between what had actually happened and what I thought had happened was completely, yeah, it was insane.

Tommy: Was it your first podcast? Was that your first?

Crystal: Yeah, that was, well, that was my first podcast as a guest on my own. And I think it's the video. I think it's the video that really threw me. I mean, obviously I knew that it would be, you know, that it was being recorded on video, but it's just a crazy experience. And Josh, when you recorded my podcast and I told you, because there was a video feed, but I said, look, don't worry about the video, it's just so we can see each other, it's not being recorded. You kind of went, oh, okay, yeah, I can really—

Josh: I was so happy about it. I was just like worried, like, oh, my head, like my forehead's a bit shiny. Is there anything that we can do do you think as a podcast to help guests through the experience that you had?

Crystal: I mean, the one thing that I think I've requested almost every time I've been on your podcast except for this is questions.

Tommy: I wanted to know the questions before.

Josh: Sorry. Sorry.

Crystal: That's just what I'm used to. I guess in other kind of media you get like a couple of prompt questions. So, it was a very unfamiliar feeling for me to go into something having an idea of what you might ask, but not having a few questions that I knew were coming, that I knew that I would be able to handle kind of articulately. And then in my head as well, knowing that you guys don't edit the episodes, in my head I was thinking like, don't say anything you're unsure about. If you're unsure, don't say it because they won't take it out.

Tommy: Well, it's a skill to even become sort of self-filtering, not even self-filtering, but just like when you, how, How much do people in everyday life roll into something they have no idea about just because someone's asked them? And it's because you feel sort of obliged to answer the question, which is what you're saying. But then that's a skill in itself to sort of stop and go, you know what, I don't have every answer about what you're talking about. And so, I'll come back to you on that.

Josh: I wonder how much of it is because you feel like you're representing something. So, for us, when we do the show, it's like we're not really representing big causes or anything like that. Like, how much of it do you think is that you're talking about big topics and you don't want to fuck that up?

Crystal: That is a big part of it. And when, like, even this is much more relaxed than that episode, right? Because I've got this book called How to Win Every Argument, so people expect that you have the answers, right? So, that's just kind of a bit of a nerve-wracking experience, I guess, but It was a, what do they call it? Trial by fire or birth by fire or something. That's how it felt.

Tommy: Don't worry, my mom, when she came on the podcast for the first time, she did great as you did, Crystal. She said she was up, she like woke up middle of the night, just like brain ticking over, couldn't stop thinking about what she'd spoken about. 'Cause it's a blur. By the time you sort of walk out, you're like, well, what happened there?

Josh: You—

Tommy: well, I enjoyed your company so much, and I enjoyed— I feel like that day we were sort of, yeah, asking you questions based on the understanding of the book you'd written and sort of taking that assumption, which you are a much smarter person than Josh and I. So it is an interesting one when people lean on someone being a smarter version. It's like, you know, I don't want to be the smartest in the room. Pretty safe to say it's never going to happen.

Josh: So do you think there is a sense of Like, I think I've gotten comfortable with being wrong and like being a gronk, I think allows us permission to have a crack, have a swing, just try, like, but, you know, do a bunch of things and then if it doesn't work out, then we apologise or we try something else. Do you think that you have a relationship with being right?

Crystal: Yeah, hugely, hugely. I don't like failing. And I don't like being wrong. And I think I've been that way since I was a pretty young kid. My mum will tell you that. So yeah, it's just a, it's just a bit. I mean, I obviously enjoyed the experience enough to keep coming back.

Tommy: Yeah. I mean, what you just said there though is like the Stockholm Syndrome. Stockholm Syndrome. It's the introverted person who ends up becoming a performer. You're really leaning into it 'cause writing a book which you can't change the text because it's printed.

Josh: I was thinking about that.

Tommy: I was like, yeah, like that, like you are setting yourself up at a, at a, you know, you're positioning yourself to say this is what I think. I mean, what is that feeling like? Because I mean, we sort of, we haven't written a book, we haven't had to cement our thoughts in a, in a specific way because we can come back tomorrow and say, you know what, I was totally wrong about yesterday.

Josh: And I guess we're also not a keepers of info, like big important information, or like we— I guess with what you're doing with ZFeed, you've— you're setting this expectation that you are a platform to educate, to inform, and that I guess is like a, a big responsibility.

Crystal: Yeah, there's an expectation that what we bring forward is going to be vetted and of quality and of some substance. I guess writing something that is going to be in print and that you can't sort of necessarily retract. Like I'm more comfortable with that because I've worked in media and I've worked as a journalist. So like you just get used to that feeling of making it as watertight as you possibly can. But at some point, and I think this is what you guys are fantastic at, it's like you need to, whatever the work is you're creating, make it as good as it can be. But at some point, you have to put it out into the world. So, you can't keep working on it until it's perfect because A, it will never be perfect, and B, that means no one will ever see it, and then you haven't done anything.

Tommy: I mean, there's a difference in people's approaches. Like, I feel like I've become a bit of a sicko with like putting, willing to put something out, like even the 20 videos that I did across the month. Got to a point where I was like, yeah, I know there's problems. With this, but I'll put it out. Yeah, watch this. And then I was sort of like leaning into the feeling of it not being right, which I see is a strength for a certain point of time. But I think it, yeah, it's, it's, it is positive in some aspects. I mean, for you, you said it's been since you were young liking to be right. I think, you know, it's quite common. What is it? How's it shifted in the last couple of weeks for you, if it, if it has, just with some of the attention that has come to the brand you're building, how are you feeling about it?

Crystal: It's been 5 days. It's pretty much been a week that the account has just exploded. And I'm just trying to be more careful about the content that is meant to be informative and additive, being like very careful about that. But then not having, not putting out 5 posts a day, say that are meant to be like very educational and very informative. It's like put out one really dense piece of work and then do some other things that are a little bit more light and don't require you to kind of like put your everything into it is like the only way that I've kind of figured out how to manage it in the last week. But ask me again in a month and I'll probably be completely different.

Josh: Can you tell us the story? I don't think we've really gotten the storey of Zee Feed. I feel like it's one of those things where watching it, build momentum and seeing people outside of our circle. I think Bree shared it from Hey Tiger or things like this. And she's like, and then I was like, oh yeah, Crystal, I mentioned yours and I said ZFeed. And Bree's like, ah, is Crystal ZFeed? Is that ZFeed? Like, I love that it's completely gone outside of our circles and it's sort of become its own thing. Can you talk us through how you developed it, what it's looked like over the last few months, how you've built it.

Crystal: Yeah, well, it actually started before even the book. My youngest sister is 10 years younger than me. So she's a Gen Z and I'm a millennial. And we, but we're like quite similar in personality, I would say. So we, you know, talk a lot. She lives in Perth with my family, but we talk a lot on the phone about sort of where she and her friends consume news, which is pretty much just on social media. So they don't like, you know, seek out— they wouldn't necessarily know that they were reading news on ABC or Sydney Morning Herald or Daily Mail or news.com. Like, they don't really know the destination they're reading it. They're just getting a storey in their feed and clicking a link or swiping up or reading a headline or whatever and just taking that at face value, which was super interesting. And as someone who works in media, also very concerning.

Josh: But also, I think, like, I know where it's coming from. It feels like that is the standard approach. Like, we've spoken about that a lot, which is just like discovering, oh, hang on, this, this consumption, this— the way that I'm consuming is, is broken. I feel like that is such a big piece in, in all of this.

Crystal: Yeah, hugely. And, and also because the, I guess, the origin and the reason for ZFeed is the same as the book, which is that if you just come to a storey that has been, you know, ongoing before you got there, news is what is new and what is noteworthy. So it's not going to go back and explain— a news article is not going to necessarily explain all of the backstory before you got to that point, because the expectation is that you have, you have already kept up with it if you're reading this you know, if you're reading this article. So originally ZFeed, why it's called ZFeed, is, is it was supposed to be for Gen Zs, mostly young women, to kind of like help them break down those storeys and be a more accessible point of like explaining the background behind the storey so that they could go and consume other news with like a little bit more context. But now that there are so many more people following and reading what we're putting out. I think I'm going to expand that to not just being Gen Z and their interests and issues, but social media generation is how I'm putting it. And then that is broad enough to kind of encapsulate, you know, anyone who self-identifies as someone who gets most of their, um, news and content and opinion pieces and hot takes from social media, which is like pretty much all of us, I'd probably say.

Tommy: Oh yeah, I mean, how much time are you thinking about ZFeed average a week? Is it something you really consuming you?

Crystal: A lot, yeah, yeah. And getting the balance right between consuming content to see what other people are doing versus actually do it like creating your own content and output for ZFeed is something that I really struggle with. 'Cause so easy like you pick up your phone and you start scrolling and before you know it, it's like 15 minutes have gone and you haven't done anything. You've just sat there and kind of passively like consumed stuff. It's a very weird, it's a vortex.

Josh: I reckon there's a, do you remember Behind the News? Oh yeah. Did you watch Behind the News?

Tommy: They'd roll out the telly on the, on the thing.

Josh: The library. The library would like record it. Like it would be on ABC or whatever and they'll record it and then they would play it. And it was like a critical look at the news, like with, like for younger people. I mean, in some way, like I see Zee Feed being a little bit of that, which is like, I don't think that that needs to go away. I don't think that like the answer to being adults is complicating shit. Like we actually need to be simplifying to then be able to be critical. Is that like, is that part of it?

Crystal: Yeah, literally Behind the News for adults. They should just keep watching it. It's so funny you say that because a guy I went to high school with, who came across ZeeFeed this week in all of the attention that we've been getting was just messaging me and saying like, "Hey, I've just seen this amazing, like, so what are you doing?" And I explained it to him and he actually said, "Oh, so it's like Behind the News for adults." He's a school teacher, so like they still, apparently they still make Behind the News and really still watch it in school, yeah.

Tommy: I love that. If you ever do sort of a video series, can we please make you some intro, sequence where a trolley wheels out an old telly and then like the teacher, and then ZFeed comes up and then it starts your show.

Josh: I could imagine that. I could even imagine like a stunt where it's like, you know, putting TVs around. Oh, that's a great idea. I mean, once public places can actually be open.

Tommy: This is like a guerrilla marketing tactic. Yeah, yeah.

Josh: I mean, it's getting very inside baseball.

Tommy: TVs on and ZFeed. I love that.

Josh: And so ZFeed, the, Have you got like a roadmap with it? Like I noticed that you're very specific in saying "we," which like—

Crystal: It's actually just me.

Josh: Is that intentional because you really want it to be more than you?

Crystal: Yeah, definitely. Definitely. And the, you know, looking ahead, that is the plan is to have people who also feed into this and for it not to just be me, even though it is me right now. And I also don't want it to necessarily be attached to me personally because I think it has— something like that has more potential to grow beyond just those who might identify with me because of, you know, who I am or how I look or, you know, what I think. It's not really about that, even though I'm the one driving it right now. So for now I'll keep saying we, but—

Tommy: I love it.

Crystal: It is a bit weird. It's like a bit meta sometimes. I mean, the royal we.

Tommy: Brands like Vice start out as a person coming up with something or a team. And I mean, that's what you can say we, but I mean, we just went, we went full hog and just went with big media company name. You know, it was just Josh and I and look at us now, 1,000 employees.

Josh: I mean, yeah. It was, it was pushing back on the, um, the idea of what big media means, right? Like, you can have— you can be a small operation, have big impact.

Tommy: Um, it's just something fun in the story. Two, two small businesses coming together to form a big media company is the sort of fun little storey behind the business. Um, I mean, just before we jumped on, we were talking about the, uh, little tools and strategies people with, um Instagram accounts that receive some attention to, uh, that you can do to sort of, uh, curate some of the trolls away from the feed. I mean, when we started, I remember Jules Lund was doing something called, um, Block the Troll. You would have been working with him. What was it like?

Josh: It was just, I think, yeah, I think across the board it was just like about like, um, don't engage. It was specifically around— there was a few cases of suicide with, yeah, high-profile media people. And so there was a big push at that time around just block.

Tommy: Yeah, just block. And so now there's a bunch of tools that you can use to sort of allow, you know, that won't— I guess, Crystal, you can explain it, the one about so you're not sort of like getting them all annoyed. Restrict. Restrict.

Crystal: Restrict. Yeah, well, that's what I've been doing for a few little trolls that have been popping up. You can restrict them so that they can still see your profile, see your content, and they can still comment on it, but they're the only people that can see their own comment and you. And if you approve it, then everybody else can see it. But if you don't approve it, it stays— it's like only visible to them, which I think is— I mean, my, my opinion on that is it's better because sometimes I think if you block them, they obviously know that you've blocked them because they can't see you anymore. And if they really want to troll you, they'll just make another account, find you again. And come back. And then I think as well, people saying like, why did you block me, you're deleting my comments, that makes other people think like, oh well, what did this guy say? And, you know, kind of gives it a little bit more volume and validity than it needs to have. Whereas if they are not aware of the fact that no one else can see them, it probably just takes the air out of it. And then also the problem that I was having was like people were trolling and just saying dumb, like deliberately inflammatory stuff. And then well-meaning people would jump on their comments and reply and like, you know, get really passionate and heated about it, which was just like surfacing it higher in the comments. So, like the goal was to not have people reply to the trolls. So, you just have to hide them. Someone will always jump in and like, you know, and try to start the argument.

Josh: It's an interesting one. A friend of mine, her company that she works for, they did a post about Black Lives Matter, and one of the people who regularly comment on the content that they do had said #AllLivesMatter with like a love heart. And the thing is, this guy is someone who is always extremely supportive but potentially just a little bit naive to the whole thing. And it was interesting. Misguided. Yeah, misguided. And the interesting thing was the person that was managing the social media account of this business is an African American, and he wrote back, "Thank you," with a love heart. And it was interesting because then my friend got DM saying, hey, you're sort of, I think you guys are missing the mark by responding this, blah, blah, blah. I just think it opened up an interesting conversation around, for the social media manager that was writing back who's African American, he's like, look, I'm experiencing things every single day. It was just a battle that, I don't necessarily, didn't necessarily think that I needed to take on. What do you think, Krystal, in regards to public perception in this? So, 'cause when we write back to people, we are sort of putting a level of a vote against something, or we're sort of revealing how we feel about something through replying to comments.

Crystal: Yeah, I learned pretty quickly that you can't even, I've never gone viral before and this definitely was in the realm of being viral. So one of the funny things is that when you go into your notifications on Instagram and it tells you like, you know, it's like this number of likes, this number of comments or whatever, but then in the feed, they're just like in chronological order. I could see that there were comments, but I couldn't even like grab them in the notifications feed to see what they were. So I'd have to go onto the post and like kind of hunt hunt for them. And I think that was maybe a good thing because I ultimately just had to give up even trying, and that stopped me from engaging with it and like kind of giving it any extra oxygen. So in terms of things that go like really crazy and get really big, I think you just, you can't anyway. Like you might be able to get the first few and engage if you want to, but after that you kind of just have to let it go. Which I never really understood before this. I don't know. I think broadly I'm against deleting comments unless they really are, you know, violent or very aggressive. I'd probably just defer to like leaving, restricting if I needed to and just not engaging.

Tommy: What about if they're from what you can tell is an anonymous page, 4 followers or not even following, 20 and 0 followers, that kind of thing. What do you think about anonymous accounts?

Crystal: Depends what they're saying, like it depends what they say.

Tommy: Well, if it is negative.

Crystal: If it's negative, but it's not really, you know, if it's negative, but it's not really like aggressive or violent, I'd probably just leave it. Because also like, I don't know that someone just didn't start their Instagram. Like today and saw my thing, you know.

Tommy: That's being kind, Krista. Optus this week— last week, sorry, they— what happened? They got served a subpoena to give over the information of an anonymous user that was, um, that commented a negative review on a teeth whitening business, which is huge. Like, this is a lot of the time you You can be anonymous online. You can, you know, comment on news.com.au articles as Jeff when you're actually Bob.

Crystal: How negative was this review?

Tommy: Well, it was— so I don't know because they didn't post it, but they— this lawyer wants the anonymous user's information to launch a defamation case. So it must have been something that sort of was throwing shade at the business in a very negative manner. But I mean, if this goes through, this is pretty— this is new.

Josh: Well, there's been those cases where competitors of businesses have gone in and done big slams of reviews and then have off the back been sued. So I mean, are you across any of that, Crystal?

Crystal: Yeah, so there actually already is— there, there already are some very interesting precedents in place, um, more specifically to like media law. So Fun fact, did you know that if the Sydney Morning Herald posts a link to one of their articles on Facebook, which of course they do every single day and say it's about Tommy Jackett, you know, some exciting storey about him. If I make a comment on Facebook on the post of that article saying something defamatory about Tommy.

Tommy: What would you say if you had to?

Josh: Just a scenario.

Tommy: Where's a dumb hat? What would you say?

Josh: What do you say?

Crystal: Defame him. It's like genuine, you know, maybe, maybe I would say that the TJ Daily videos are actually using child labour to be produced.

Josh: Oh, that's a great one.

Tommy: Georgie boy does help edit. Yeah, but he's overage.

Crystal: I saw the chocolate.

Josh: Yeah, yeah. Leverage these kids. Only had the kid for one episode.

Tommy: This is great.

Josh: Yep.

Crystal: So if I left that comment, you can sue the Sydney Morning Herald for my comment, me as a member of the general public. And there actually is already a precedent, a decision has already been made that the Sydney Morning Herald is in— under Australian law considered to be the publisher of that comment, even though the comment was made on Facebook, not on their own site. So that's that's relatively new sort of development in that space. Obviously publishers are pushing back pretty hard against it because it's, we're in sort of unusual waters where anybody can comment on anything that's public on Facebook, but are the right people being held liable for it?

Josh: Well, I think like when I was at Southern Cross Austereo, when there was the infamous royal prank that led to a suicide and there was a bunch of comments that were written Based on that, there was a 24-hour, 7-day-a-week team, and that were like me being on that team that had to go through all the social networks and monitoring and real-time deleting. This does bring up the point around what Twitter did a couple of weeks ago where they sort of did a bit of fact-checking, which Trump then did. What does he call it? He's, um, he uses his presidential power, executive order, around, uh, social media moving from being a platform to being a publisher, which would be in more in line with that.

Tommy: So the platforms would— so Facebook could be liable?

Josh: Yeah. So at the moment, Facebook, Twitter, they're all considered platforms, and so that they're sort of, um, people can write content on there and they're not responsible. Twitter is playing a dangerous game around editorialising or adding, uh, uh, commentary around tweets. And, you know, I guess it's the, the head of ethics or whatever it is within Twitter that's making that call. What's, what's your take on it, Crystal?

Crystal: Yeah, it's like I made a terrible analogy during the week. I'm just see if I can remember it, but it's, it's whether, um, Twitter is a microphone which people are using to say things, or whether Twitter is a newspaper. And that's kind of the distinction. So if they are just a microphone, the microphone is not responsible for what comes out of it. It's the person. But if they are deemed to be, which is from what I understand, this is what Trump is trying to shift the laws to reflect them as a publisher, which would, yes, see them sit in line with what media organisations have to I guess, do in terms of like fact-checking and making sure that what they're representing is the truth. Where I think they actually see it, I don't know. I'm inclined to think that they are more of a platform because it's also a little bit like, how far does that go? I completely understand fact-checking Trump's tweets, but how can you then start to fact-check every single tweet made on Twitter?

Josh: And isn't that also sort of shifting the power in saying, like, there's a difference between being a venue, so being like, "Oh, Trump, you can use our venue to speak," and then having a venue that after he speaks will go up and then say their opinion about what they think. Like, I just think it's— even though Trump is completely outrageous, obnoxious, and, you know, dangerous in the way that he communicates, I think that setting a precedent that some dude or woman or whoever it is on Twitter is, or group of people, is making a call. Yeah. On and editorialising and saying, hey, this is, uh, here are 3 points that we found. I mean, they're essentially z-feeding it, but there's a big fucking difference between being z-feed, which is creating editorial content to help communicate, uh, different perspectives versus actually like being a platform.

Crystal: Yeah. Oh yeah, for sure. It's almost like I'm trying to figure out whether Trump— I mean, this is— things get very political when I come on this show, don't they?

Tommy: I'll be crying tonight.

Josh: No tears, no tears.

Tommy: Defamation.

Josh: I know it's not defamation if it's true, though.

Crystal: But is he an idiot or is he a genius? Because he has gone outside of the existing structures of how a president would normally communicate, which would go through all of these layers of fact-checking, right? But he's just kind of gone, fuck it, I'm just gonna keep tweeting like I have been, you know, before I was president. I'm just gonna keep doing that because this sits outside of the, you know, the restrictions and structures of the White House, and they can't really do anything about it.

Tommy: I mean, it is a meme page that can, you know, that builds a 20 million following a genius or just someone who understands.

Josh: He's like Fuck Jerry, dude.

Tommy: Fuck Jerry knew how to game the system. Trump is quite genius in relation to— he's gamified social media. Like, he knows how to work people's emotions and, you know, like, it's, it's crazy what he's able to do.

Crystal: The shame is it doesn't have to be right. Yeah, but if other people think it, then they will they'll back him on that.

Josh: And I mean, you know, the funny thing is like, um, we don't, we don't live in the US, but it feels like it does consume a lot of the, um, the narratives that end up coming across into Australia. The political system, I feel like I know more about the US political system than I do in Australia. Um, Biden, I, I just feel like it's, it's this weird one because He seems like so average, like just so like— It's this frustrating thing where it's like, okay, you've got Trump who is outrageous, just all of the negatives. But then you've got someone who doesn't— Who seems like a little bit spineless or maybe doesn't have the qualities of a leader or—

Tommy: And then compare him to Obama.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: So, Trump and Obama, characters in their own, and then Biden. Yeah. If you're looking at the last two presidents and then you go to Biden.

Josh: Just a bit boring. I mean, what's the— Is that the danger in all of this? That what do we need from leaders? Can a leader be boring?

Crystal: Well, you could almost say the same about Jacinda Ardern as well. Like, she— I mean, she's obviously not the same kind of showman as Trump is, but it's almost like we want, we need leaders to be a little bit more than, well, we need them to be leaders and not just politicians.

Josh: They need to have a little bit of theatre to them, don't they?

Tommy: I love Jacinda because she seems like the 30-something that you'd know. Like, I feel like the relatability of her is that she could be, you know, my cousin's mate, and I had a drink with her once at the pub. And like, even just her doing this sort of live streams at home.

Josh: Oh yeah.

Tommy: The normality of it and the relatability of it was what sort of I thought was the point of difference at that point. It's like someone who's leading a country is just someone, but Joe Biden is a different vibe to the normal. He's just basic.

Josh: But then ScoMo is the substitute teacher. He's the one who's, or, you know, the grumpy dad who's just like, you know, telling people off and doing all that. And so it's hard though, because like, I guess, do personalities reflect, um, policy?

Crystal: Great question. Don't know.

Tommy: I think he just liked how it rhymed.

Josh: Yeah, yeah, yeah. To be honest, it was actually a TDS quote. That's the only reason.

Tommy: Yeah.

Josh: Oh yeah, I got that.

Tommy: Can we jump to, um, I guess it's a similar vein. Shameless, the podcast, have closed their Facebook group that had 40,000 strong.

Josh: We had 100,000, but we closed ours a few years ago.

Tommy: Oh, yeah. We shut it up. Shut it down. I mean, do you know much about that? For someone not—

Crystal: I hadn't heard that, no.

Josh: I think that like, yeah, for them, they talked about it just sort of running its course, if that's the right, what do you say, turn of phrase.

Tommy: Yeah, and so I mean, so they, I think they use the term, it got a bit toxic. The sweet spot between 5,000 and 15,000 people within the group and what the conversation was around then and sort of I guess maybe how much you can handle at that point in terms of, You know, Michelle was mentioning that, you know, she's been on the phone with people that are following that group at night talking through conversations that were on the group. And Zara said that, you know, the decision to close it wasn't based on the conversation we just had, Krystal, around media outlets being responsible for comments and things that were being posted within you know, with below posts that they were putting out. So it was sort of a decision before that. I mean, it is a— I mean, everyone thinks that attention is the thing that you want as a creator. You want numbers, you want views. But then when you look at something like Shameless Girls closing down a page that has a lot of attention, it makes you think twice about is it attention that we want and what type of attention We do want. Have you thought about that for yourself?

Crystal: But it is the difference between like 40,000 in a, or any kind of group of that size. I guess it's the question of like whether that is actually a community, whether is that a real community of people or has that now just become an extension of an audience that they also have in other places? You know, is that like, should that really just be part of their, social media followings or their newsletter lists. Like, is it a community if it's that big? I mean, it's almost a better question for you guys, like with the Gronkh Squad. How many, how many do you think would honestly be too many to service in the way that you are kind of servicing us all now?

Josh: Yeah, I think that it's, for us it's been about co-creating. And so as a community, But I think that the problematic nature of community or culture, so like 8 years ago, culture was the big thing that HR and people departments were talking about. Culture has its own issues around unconscious bias and being like, okay, we just, we get people who speak like us, they think like us, there's no friction. And so the very hard thing I think about what Shameless has built is they've built a critical piece of media that requires debate, it requires all of those things. And I think with that complexity, it's, um, yeah, I think that from a, from a content perspective, our content is a little bit safer to that, which I think is why we won't grow to be as big as they are, but we will have— like, I think that we'll have slower growth where people will be aligned. And so if everyone is aligned based on, um, being a gronk— what does it mean to be a gronk? Being a gronk means, uh, not always being right but a willingness to improve. That feels like if that's the benchmark, we're in a good spot.

Tommy: And then there's— I think there's there has to be a difference in, you know, having a 500, a 1,000, a 5,000, 10,000. There is a different version of what you can give over at those levels. And so, you know, for, for the Shameless Girls, for what they built out the— you know, they're obviously identifying that this 40,000, this is— feels like it's out of hand. And the options to go down the path of monitoring it and curating, like, aren't the option at that point. They're like No, nothing is better than that.

Josh: Well, more so like, what is the— It seems like there's diminishing returns on these things too. So, it's like you— The difference between 15,000 and 40,000, are you really getting a diversity of opinions or is it this homogenisation that's happening on bigger ideas? So, you sort of have blocks of people. But then the toxicity rises. So if toxic ideas and negativity spreads, and so the numbers go up, you're going to end up with more people who are just being negative and noisy.

Tommy: Yeah, it's an interesting one. Um, Crystal, before we finish off, for you, 3 years' time, what does it look like? What are you thinking for, for ZFeed, for you and your podcast? Are you thinking that far ahead?

Crystal: This is pretty much what I've been thinking about all weekend. So taking the time now to just actually figure it out, um, because yeah, like a week ago I had 900 followers on Instagram, now I have over 10,000. So the, um, growth has been steep to say the least.

Tommy: Yeah.

Crystal: Um, but I'm not naive enough to think that that just just means it's made and it automatically translates to people invested in what you're doing. And actually, you know, in like— it's hard, I don't want to sound ungrateful because I'm absolutely not. And it's kind of wrapped up in all this other complicated stuff around the events that had to happen that accelerated my growth the way that it did, which is something I'm trying to unpack. But in a lot of ways, a more steady growth is more manageable as well because you understand the people that are coming to you and what they kind of want and need from you. So I'm trying to figure it out. In 3 years' time, I hope that this is something that's a) still going, um, and maybe has a few different content pillars that we're really strong on across a couple of different mediums, but who knows. Who knows?

Josh: You said on Instagram, um, in one of your Insta storeys you did, as, as sometimes white-passing, uh, woman of color. What does it mean to be, uh, white-passing?

Crystal: To be white-passing means that even though I'm, I'm not white, I'm an Asian woman, both my parents are Asian, I guess I have ambiguous— I look racially ambiguous. So people can sometimes think that I am, that I actually am Caucasian, that I'm white and I just tan really easily. Or some people might think that I am Asian, or people have said that they think I'm, you know, from Brazilian background or all these kind of different places. So when I am able to kind of go through society with some people thinking that I am white, I access all of the privileges that a white person also accesses because I haven't been put in a different box. So I certainly have had things a lot easier in life than even some of my, you know, like some of my cousins who are much darker looking than I am, who have more Asian features than I do. I've definitely enjoyed some privileges in life and And yeah, that's just another thing to take stock of at this kind of time. It's given me a really good pause for thought.

Tommy: I remember growing up, a question that heaps of kids would ask is, "What's your nasho?" Is that still like, is that acceptable to be saying that? I've never—

Josh: Do you say, "What's your heritage now?" Or what's the PC way of— Well, 'cause the other thing is—

Crystal: As someone who gets asked, I just don't think you should ask. Relevant.

Josh: So, the thing that I wonder about that is the point around colour, like one of the conversations Bree and I had was she was in the place of, you know, like, "I'm not a racist person. Like, I don't see, like, I just, I don't see, you know, colour or whatever." And then we spoke about that and read up and what, like, why that's so problematic. And so, if we do see colour and we are all different, is asking someone their nationality or, you know, like, what is the phrasing that then is coming from a place of curiosity rather than just trying to put people on a ladder?

Crystal: I think there are probably two key things in it. The first is that Actually, what's the most irritating, and I— and for some people, like, potentially painful, like actually painful, is when it's the first thing that you're asked, or when it's kind of like in those initial conversations with someone that you're asking them. Because really, you should just be wanting to know who they are and what they're about outside of their race in initial kind of, you know, when you've just met someone for the first time, like, what does it really matter? And then after that, I mean, if it's someone that you have known and you are interacting with regularly about all kinds of other things outside of race, I mean, I don't know. I don't really know. Just approaching it with compassion and kindness and also anticipating that they might be put off by the question no matter how you ask it. I think the one thing we need to stop saying is, where are you from? Because that's a very weird, like, you're not from here. Like, that's not great.

Tommy: Well, the question didn't make it onto Josh's 100 dating questions, so.

Crystal: Yeah, yeah.

Josh: It's probably not necessary. The modern Josh. Yeah, well, I also think that part of it is, I think that is from an intentions perspective, it can come from a good place, which is from a connectedness point of view, which is like, you know, you get excited where it's like, "Oh, I've been to this place," or "I know a little bit about this thing." It's like, I know about "Kashk-e-Badamjun," which is a Persian eggplant dish. And so, if I know that someone's from Iran or if they sort of, if they're Persian, I enjoy mentioning that. Or "Kubideh," I like mentioning that food. But I realise that that's probably, that's a weird flex and doesn't necessarily help. It's more for me.

Tommy: The kids could— talking naso is like when we were young, Italian— that were loved it when they'd discover somebody else that was Italian too. And so, I mean, but you can easily give it that sort of, uh, you know, best example approach versus the people that are wanting to understand. I mean, young kids like my son, you know, a 3-year-old cannot be racist, I don't think. Unless their parents are, but Bodhi definitely understands that there is different skin colors. And he knows like he's one of his favourite rappers, Smallsy. He actually has a favourite rapper and he has a great song, but there's been moments where, and he's a black man and we've been in the lift before. And he said to somebody, he thought it was Smallsy. And he said to the guy, "Mossy bop." which he called his songs Vossy Bob. But he said it to this guy and the guy had no idea what was going on. And I was like, oh my God, he's kind of just understood from watching the film clip, which I probably shouldn't have showed him, and seen somebody of colour and made the connection.

Josh: And so does it say that the own— like, is that the problematic bit, which is the— that one piece, that's the only reference that he has to—

Tommy: I mean, with her For giving him benefit of the doubt as a 3-year-old, he's just seen a guy that looked like his favourite rapper.

Josh: Yeah, well, it's not, but it's not even, I guess it has nothing to do with Bodhi and more the, like, what he's getting exposed to, right? So it's like if he's, if, so if you had, if you had, uh, like a bunch of black friends and you were going on the weekend or whatever and you're going to barbecues and stuff, yeah, would, would that be the Would that be the connection in your mind?

Tommy: Yeah, probably not. But then I guess then you go, is that being racist?

Josh: No, I don't think it's being racist, but I think it just reveals our—

Tommy: Exposure.

Josh: Yeah, like what I was talking about the other day, our contact list being, you know, 90% white.

Tommy: Yeah, definitely. I just thought—

Crystal: What do you think, Chrissy? You know, and that's why representation is like a real— It's so important. Because, you know, for like, to use Bodhi as the example, his reference point, hopefully as he gets a little bit old, you know, he is only 3, so there's only— he's just starting to make these connections. But hopefully his reference point for the professions and the things that a black man can do will be beyond being a sportsperson or a rapper. And I think that's kind of the issue. It's like making sure that people you know, that young people and young kids understand that a Black man also can be an academic, can be a high school teacher, can be an accountant, you know, can be a nurse, can be whatever. And that's kind of the issue that I think Australia does. The Australian media and people in positions of power in Australia are very uniform. More so than I think in a lot of countries that we often compare ourselves to. So that's like a big part of the work for me is just like, how can I also represent other people in the various things that they, the various very different things that they do so that everybody has this expectation that you really can be, it's such a cliché, isn't it? That really optimistic cliché that you can be anything. But you do wanna show really young kids that that all different types of people can do all different types of jobs, 'cause it's great for them too, because then Bodhi will grow up also knowing that he really can do anything he wants to do, not only because you and Amy tell him that he can, but because he sees that all of these different types of people do what they want to do too.

Tommy: Yeah, I mean, it's a complicated thing for parents too, I think about what's the best way of educating a young child moving forward.

Josh: Well, through your own actions, I guess.

Tommy: Yeah.

Josh: And so, it's like if they're sponges, it's probably harder to get a whiteboard out and say, okay, here's the different jobs. Now, these all— all these people can do it. And that's why it's really important that as a community, as a society, we do it all together. It's not just a response like, We all have individual responsibilities, but we have individual responsibilities because we are a representation of society. And if we can, and you know, I can reflect it to technology and having developers and engineers, it's like the reason why we need more representation in those roles is so that when, you know, young girls are looking at what they could potentially do, it doesn't have to be they're a fucking princess or a beautician or a PR specialist or a journalist or media and comms or a nurse that they can do all of these other things and it has as much weight on it.

Tommy: Yeah, I mean, I wonder how the school systems are tackling this, you know, for the young future generation. I don't have the answer.

Crystal: I did have a high school teacher from Melbourne actually messaged Sefaid and asked if she could use the little post that we'd put together in her class, which was super exciting for me. It was very lovely. But I think, you know, people are definitely, some people are definitely trying to bring it into the education system.

Josh: You could end behind the news. You could be the editor to Behind the News. I would enjoy that. Bit of healthy competition.

Crystal: We need to make a spoof video.

Tommy: Yes, yes! Georgie Boy, he's across the skids so you could do it.

Josh: Yeah, yeah, oh yeah, Georgie Boy can definitely hook you up.

Crystal: Can we get this on Hump Day Replay?

Josh: Thanks. Definitely. It's happening. Congratulations on the success. It seems weird 'cause like— You've got like, we push back on that going viral thing because we understand how much work that you do behind the scenes before anything actually happens. And you were— it's amazing that you've been putting in the effort, writing, being critical, doing long hours, sending emails at, you know, ridiculous times and making things happen. And so, I mean, it's proof that when you put in the effort that it can, you know, return the favor. So Congratulations, it's so cool. We're pumped for you.

Crystal: Thank you so much. It means a lot.

Josh: Awesome. Thanks, Crystal. That's the Daily Talk Show. See you tomorrow, guys. Have a good one.

Tommy: See you guys.