Crystal Andrews On How To Win Every Argument.

Tommy: The Daily Talk Show. It's The Daily Talk Show, episode 577.

Josh: Got a special guest in the studio, Krystal Andrews. Welcome, guys, it's me. Thank you.

Tommy: Winning every argument since, uh, 2019.

Josh: I mean, you've got that winning vibe about you.

Crystal: Thanks, I really appreciate it. No one has ever said that to me. Now I'm a little bit offended. Nobody else has mentioned it.

Josh: I'm all about winners. You're a winner if you've been able to even write a book. 'Cause I don't know if we have the—

Tommy: I wanna one day, one day, one day.

Josh: I didn't say you weren't a winner.

Tommy: No, no.

Josh: Just not right now.

Tommy: So you're a writer, a journo, and you've written this book, How to Win Every Argument.

Crystal: Yeah, ambitious title.

Tommy: Yeah, it's very small to be able to win every argument.

Crystal: Look, there are some disclaimers pretty early in the book. It's not every argument, but I think it's a pretty well-rounded look at what most people are talking about right now.

Tommy: The smell is great.

Josh: I mean, the smell's great. The content's even better. Yeah, it's, uh, some of the hot button topics. Like, can we just— Josh, um, words are important. We need to get it right.

Tommy: So just some of the things you're covering, the arguments: astrology, climate change, free speech, the gender pay gap, home ownership, and it goes on.

Crystal: We're going big.

Tommy: Yeah.

Josh: How do—

Tommy: because I always feel that I'm not never in a position to talk about anything. Like, I always feel like there's someone that's going to know more. Do you think that that is a misguided approach to, to the big issues?

Crystal: Absolutely. That's really the reason that I wrote the book, is to give people just that background understanding of a big topic like climate change or home ownership or free speech— that's a huge one— and just have enough of a well-rounded understanding that you feel like you can get involved. It's not every single fact, otherwise that would be a much bigger book.

Tommy: Is it a web link?

Crystal: I don't think it's called an encyclopedia.

Tommy: Can you still get it? So, I'm having an obsession over Iran at the moment. And have you heard of World of Books?

Crystal: No.

Tommy: So, it's like, it's a secondhand bookstore like Amazon, but secondhand books. And they've got everything. And I love the idea because I'm not, I'm a bit of a poser when it comes to reading. I buy more books than I read.

Crystal: And you just like to have them stacked up on the bedside table. Exactly.

Tommy: And the problem being that when you buy new books, they look new. And so the next poser element is buying secondhand books so that at least—

Crystal: Oh, so it looks like you've read it.

Tommy: Exactly. And you can sort of mask it as like—

Crystal: Life hack for 2020.

Tommy: Well, Ninety Seven's doing life hacks. But anyway, the— Where was I going with that? I read books. No, Iran.

Josh: Oh, Iran.

Tommy: And encyclopedias. I didn't read— Like I was looking at a book and it turns out that it was like a huge like section just of a— encyclopedia. When was the last time you actually saw a physical encyclopedia?

Crystal: No, all that keeps coming to mind are those Encyclopedia Britannica, like CD-ROMs.

Josh: Oh yeah, that was big. That's our generation. I think they were even doing door-to-door sales of encyclopaedia back in the day. If you want to have a smart kid, it could be an approach for your book, getting it out there.

Crystal: Maybe I should go door-to-door with it.

Josh: Door-to-door. I mean, Josh and I were saying, like, it's almost a power move for bringing people over to have a few wines and they get there and they see that you've got this book open, just like, try me. Let's commit. Let's commit.

Tommy: I feel like it's a weapon in the, like, in the wrong hands. Because if you've got a level of confidence, if you read a book like that, is there a risk that potentially you think that you know everything?

Crystal: Look, I don't think that's how the book is positioned. Hopefully that's not how it, how I come across anyway. It's just really about encouraging people to get in there, I think. Yeah, I don't think you can be too confident. Do you think—

Josh: I mean, I've given it a real hot crack.

Crystal: I don't think you can be too confident with these things. Everybody just has so— you know, the nature of the topics in here is everyone has an opinion.

Tommy: And so everyone's got an opinion, but not everyone's right. But also, I guess there's like multiple truths to a single thing. How do you navigate the fact that some things just might be someone's opinion?

Crystal: Well, some things are just people's opinion, right?

Tommy: Yeah.

Crystal: I think there are sections that are, that there are a right and a wrong. Some things are not really contested, like climate change.

Tommy: Yeah.

Josh: Or vaccines.

Crystal: Vaccines. Exactly. Anti-vaxxers is just an area that researching that blew my mind because the whole premise of the book is I've gone and found what people say against these kind of commonly accepted topics, I suppose. So you're like scrolling these anti-vaxxer forums to see what arguments they put up to say that you shouldn't vaccinate your kids. It's nuts.

Josh: Yeah, it's crazy.

Crystal: Absolutely nuts. It's like, you don't need to vaccinate your kids if you breastfeed them because that's enough to protect them from every single disease that ever will be. It's like, no, that's not— that doesn't even hold up to basic logic.

Tommy: And so how do you have conversation, like, with it, with using that example when someone has such a strong belief? Is it worth having a conversation with someone like that?

Crystal: I think so. I think you should try. I mean, don't beat your head against a brick wall trying to go nowhere, but I think you should always just give it a bit of a crack.

Josh: I liked sort of in the introduction, you're talking about those moments we get in an argument with a friend or somebody in your world and you get home and then that's when you realise that, ah, that's what I should have said here. I actually knew that I was in the moment. I mean, this is the reality. And then online, it sort of has this weird place where people are playing in that place where they haven't got the answers, but they're willing to just start communicating. So last night I was on Facebook, I just saw a friend post about, it was relating to climate change. He said, "I'm not a disbeliever that climate change is real, but have a look at this." And it was like the temperatures from the 1950s, and there was some like 51-degree days all across Australia. And it was like,. And then I just posted a little popcorn emoji. 'Cause I was like, I just jumped into the comments.

Crystal: Waiting for the comments.

Josh: And it was full on. And everyone had a point to some degree. And then I went down a rabbit hole recently watching a guy who was, he's pretty far right talking about climate change and put up a good piece of information that's counter to the climate change argument. Do I believe that climate change is not a thing? No. But what I like about this book is that you pose both the sides. To give people the opportunity to realise there are actually two sides because you can get so caught in the echo chamber. Like when you're going down the anti-vaxx, these people are just, it's reverberating off the wall that's in front of their eyes. And that's how far their information goes of their own argument. 'Cause it just comes straight back to them from their best mate, the person around them. What was the most interesting thing you found outside of the anti-vaxx one? 'Cause I'm sure that's a huge rabbit hole.

Crystal: Huge topic.

Josh: What was one that sort of really surprised you about piece of information that you found people were really believing, that people really just clung on to, that clung on to?

Crystal: I think the free speech one, particularly right now, is huge, and it's probably only going to continue to get bigger. And people really believe that free speech means you can say whatever you want to say without consequence, which is like the key bit of that statement, right? Because technically you You probably can say almost anything you wanna say, but not without consequence. And that was the part that kept getting left off every single argument you'd see to say that free speech was being eroded because, you know, Israel Folau can't post about his Christian beliefs on social media, even though he's got a contract with the Wallabies that has certain values baked into that contract. They were like, well, no, his free speech is being eroded. Actually, Probably not in my estimations, because it doesn't mean that nothing bad can happen to you just because you want to say what you want to say.

Tommy: When you lean into arguments, what do you expect? Like, I can just imagine, say like Christmas time, you got like rellows or whatever with all different opinions. I feel like it— maybe I'm a bit of a coward, but I don't enter into shit just because I can't be fucked like dealing with whatever. And also I don't have enough information. I feel like I I don't know. Like, yeah, you could, like, say for instance, someone with the climate change stuff, they will say, oh, you know, there's these, how do you answer, you know, these 4 days in this year? I'm like, well, I have no fucking idea. Like, you don't know.

Crystal: I don't know the temperature on that day in 1957.

Tommy: And so how, what are you accepting when you lean into arguments like this?

Crystal: I think hearing people is the really big one because that's sort of what it feels like. Everyone just wants their opinion to be heard.. And if you just listen, it kind of takes the heat out of it a little bit. My biggest tip that I found has worked on so many of these topics when you're on the cusp of what feels like could be something a little bit explosive is to ask 5 questions. Have you guys ever heard of that?

Tommy: No.

Crystal: That theory. So the theory is that if you just keep asking why, not like a kid would, just why, why, why, but ask why they think that or where they read it and why does that make sense to them? You'll keep drilling down until you hit something that is kind of a universal truth that you can probably both agree with or that you can at least understand. So that is another thing that you can go, okay, if this feels like it's going to be— if I feel like I don't have enough information and it could be a little bit tense, go in with the thought of I'll just ask why a few times and actually do some digging and hopefully come to something that that you can both agree on or that is in your wheelhouse to kind of wrestle with.

Tommy: What do you think about the devil's advocate?

Crystal: I love a devil's advocate. Yeah. Argue it. Yeah.

Tommy: And so, I guess the devil's advocate, if you think about what's popular right now, I mean, climate change, you know, all the science around that, there's a bunch of people who are playing the devil's advocate in like a way that's not great for the world. When should we be a devil's advocate and when do we all need to just understand that, oh no, we should just go in this direction?

Crystal: I think devil's advocate is really good for testing out those arguments. But, you know, with climate change, 97% of the actively publishing scientists agree. Game's over.

Tommy: Yeah.

Crystal: For the devil's advocate, right? So, we're already there.

Tommy: From like a nuance point of view, because I wonder about this, like with, say, Uh, with all the fires and things like that, like, I haven't, I haven't been into like the media, like into the whole area with it. But one of the things that I think about is like, okay, so there's climate change, which we like say we universally agree on. Then there's like the nuances within those elements. So say like the ScoMo stuff, there was a point in which I was like, us shitcanning ScoMo, is it becoming unproductive from the overall thing. Like, do we— I sort of just think like all these things that are happening right now, these are happening for years and years and years. ScoMo's only been around like— how long has he been our Prime Minister for? I don't even know.

Crystal: God, who can keep up?

Tommy: Yeah.

Crystal: And so 10 days or something.

Tommy: Yeah.

Josh: I thought Julie Gillard was still PM.

Tommy: Kevin '07. He actually went to our school. I was sick that day. So annoying.

Crystal: But my friend—

Tommy: yeah, my friend shook his hand and she was eating a mandarin at the time and she was on rove because Kevin Rudd wiped his hands on his pants after shaking her hand. But anyway, yeah, so, um, something nuanced like that and being able, like, connecting things. How do you reconcile that stuff? Like, how do you work out, like, okay, so I'm not gonna— I don't know the specifics of this, this, and this. When do you bring politics into things? When do you hold people accountable? What's your, like, personally, like, not even through the book, but what's your personal filter?

Crystal: I think my personal take on that is when it is one individual, because it's kind of easy to hold one individual to account, like we're pretty comfortable with that. And that is what happened with Scott Morrison. But when you take a step back and say, is it the person, or when do they become a product of the system, or is it the system itself? That's when it— I feel like I want to pull back from a 'you, you, you, you did this, you didn't do this,' whatever it is, and go, hang on, is it What role does this person operate within the system and how is that shaping what we understand? I think that's really been the key thing that's been kind of missed in all the bushfire debate, really. The focus is on what he did or didn't do, which that aside, he hasn't single-handedly crafted all these policies and he hasn't actually been in, you know, the leader for that long. He's dealing with a crisis. He's responding to it as it happens. But who are the people behind him?

Tommy: And so he's symbolic almost. He's symbolic to a bigger issue. Do you think we know, like, does the average punter know that, that when we're doing this, it's done within sort of a symbolic way?

Crystal: My gut feeling is no. I don't know how well people really understand how that all works. I don't think that I fully grasp how much it works. When you go into politics as one person who probably really does want to make a difference and wants to serve their country and make a change. But then you get into that system and what are all the different forces at play? Who's really pulling the strings? I sound like a conspiracy theorist.

Josh: But there is a game. Any business environment, there's a game you are playing, you're signing up for when you become that person. As the Prime Minister, it's a massive game. I mean, the cultural influence of people beating him down gives you this perspective on him. Whether you like him or not, one thing you have a general vibe on the guy. My wife and I were listening to ABC on the way to work one morning, and there was this interview with this guy and a woman, Kate from ABC, asking some tough questions. This person was answering really well, and I was like, this guy's great. And then they're like, oh, well, thank you, Scott Morrison. And we were like, That was ScoMo. And I was, and it was almost like a moment where I realised the judgement as soon as I heard the name on him. But I was like, I actually thought if I didn't know who it was or if it was a different voice, that I kind of appreciated the way he answered these questions that were quite hard. I was like, that was great the way he answered them. And so then it's like, do you just hate the guy? And so it doesn't matter what he says by the end of it. And so in an argument, you've got two sides, and if you hate the other person you're not gonna give a shit about their argument. Do you think when people get into arguments with someone else— so let's take an example here. So let's go, um, uh, veganism. You are actually— it's a hot button right now, actually.

Tommy: I know, we're all game changers.

Crystal: Yeah, but you're— you're—

Josh: well, I did for a month, but do you think when you're getting into an argument about veganism, whether it's helping the world or it's better for your health, and you're talking to somebody who you know is on the opposing field or the other side, that that has shut down the ability for me to even accept whether I lose the argument or not. You know what I mean? Like, whether I'm up for even admitting that I'll lose this thing because I don't— like, what does a win look like in an argument?

Crystal: It's different for everyone, isn't it? I mean, do you want to find out why that, why that person is vegan? What are their reasons? Why do they think it's better for the environment? Or are you just trying to score points? I think really scoring points is probably where it gets into those slinging matches and the crappy like comment threads you see on Instagram where people are just ignoring this part of the comment and I'll address this because I know I can deal with it. And it just gets into this crazy thread that doesn't go anywhere. Or you're approaching from that place of curiosity to find out actually what is something that we can all agree is constructive and going to move us all forward. I guess all these topics are sort of things that at least my interpretation is if we can kind of get a consensus on these things, we can start to move forward and progress.

Tommy: Have you changed your mind on anything recently?

Crystal: Oh gosh, that's a, that's a— like, do I want to admit to that? Well, that's another thing on record. That is part of it. You don't necessarily always want to, like, give the whole game away. You can walk away still being like, good point.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: And so what's the— so I guess the How to Win Every Argument, it's tongue in cheek. Yeah, exactly.

Crystal: And so that's tongue in cheek.

Tommy: And so there is the— but there's— there would be a bunch of people, like, when I posted about it on Instagram, there's people like, oh, like, love the— like, just the title alone creates a bit of a response. Response in people? Do you think that there is a reframing of what it means to have an opinion? Or, or being— or like, say for instance, on the political stuff, like, I feel like when I have a conversation, normally people are trying to work out where you fit within the political spectrum.

Crystal: Yeah, yeah.

Tommy: And the thing is, I actually don't even know where— like, I don't know where I fit. Like, I, I'm pretty— I feel like I'm pretty left-leaning. I think like You know, do you ever do that?

Crystal: Like at election time, the ABC do that thing where they've never done the web.

Josh: Yeah. So this is— I did that. I did it. Far right.

Tommy: Crazy. I'm joking.

Crystal: I'm joking.

Josh: It ended up throwing me pretty center.

Crystal: Yeah, right.

Tommy: Really?

Crystal: Did that surprise you?

Josh: Because I am far right. It's crazy. I'm joking. I'm not far right, but I was not really like I was. Yeah, I kind of like seems like a safe ground being center. It's like maybe I've become more progressive as the years come on, have gone. So I feel like I've got room to move. It's either pretty far over here or a little bit that way, which will help. I don't know. Center's pretty good, isn't it?

Tommy: Yeah, it's like saying Collingwood side to vote Green. They sort of had the best presence.

Josh: But can you, can you—

Tommy: nice.

Josh: Even, even the political conversation is where we've kind of slid down in a lot of this conversation. It's a slippery fucking slope. It is tough. Like if we took another one, which is like home ownership, I don't think we'd go down as far as a rabbit hole in its layers as we do when it comes to a political conversation.

Crystal: I think it can.

Josh: It can?

Crystal: Yeah. When you start to get into the economics behind that, it very quickly kind of slides into this weird political area that it kind of is, but it's not quite because really, I guess that's the backbone of a lot of political policies. What are they going to do for the economy? Is it going to make it easier for people to, to first home is owners to get in the door, or is it making it harder for investors?

Josh: Okay, I'll use another example because maybe these are all circulating back to some kind of political skew. Like there was kombucha.

Crystal: Okay, so maybe that'll give you a point.

Tommy: I feel like if you're right-wing, you're like, fuck kombucha. Don't you think? But there's also—

Josh: Oh yeah, it's like your deep dark secret that kombucha you think has saved you, but you won't tell the Proud Boys. Yeah.

Tommy: Yeah, no, it's— I mean, the— I guess this is why people veer away from these conversations, right? Because the, the political side of, of convos normally end in like a bit of a nightmare. I feel like for a lot of people, um, like, I, I don't know if it's getting any better. I mean, if you look on online and you look at social media, I think most of the time you don't want to necessarily enter into a conversation because of, there's always going to be someone that believes the opposite.

Crystal: Yeah, but it is a fallacy to think that we're just left and right, for want of better, or, you know, conservative or progressive. Nobody, I think, is that, but like, we're not that binary, are we?

Tommy: Well, yeah, that's why I think, but then you have like, say media, and they talk about like, oh, like what you're consuming and say like, Yeah, I don't know. Like, I only discovered like a couple of years— like, I'm so dumb. Like, a couple of years ago, I only realised that it was like a left and right.

Josh: Like, I was like, well, I said to you, is that based on our age and social media and the media talking about these left, right, fake news, fake news, all that stuff? Like, do you think it's because it's more vocal now that people are even saying, I now need to work out where I fit on the political Spectrum.

Crystal: Yeah, I think so. It's becoming like an ident— it's an identity moment. We've almost gone through cycles of being identifying as a collective, and that's where the strength is. And then it became really about the individual and your unique, which is probably like where millennials sit, right? We're all very unique. Yeah, little snowflakes.

Tommy: Yeah, absolutely. Definitely '97, a little snowflake.

Josh: Can we entertain the kombucha conversation just for a little bit longer?

Crystal: What do you wanna know?

Josh: The kombucha conversation I think is closely linked to the purified water conversation, whether it's any good or not. So if someone isn't, so if you just jump in to see what's inside, it states kombucha, but it doesn't state sort of your approach to it, the two sides. So if you wanna just sort of elaborate, you can use the book as cheat sheets if you've—

Crystal: I think I've got it handled.

Josh: You got it?

Tommy: Good, good, good. I didn't wanna—

Josh: You could have had a ghostwriter.

Crystal: Written.

Tommy: Yeah, all written. Very impressive.

Josh: So what do you hold up? So for the kombucha conversation, what are the two sides?

Crystal: So the kombucha—

Josh: I have read it, mind you.

Crystal: You have? Okay, good. So we're all up to speed. The kombucha chapter, I guess, is a little bit of a— it kind of represents health discussions and what we sometimes cling onto as these like cure-all health moments. Kombucha is kind of this symbol now, right, for gut health. And everyone thinks that they need to really improve their gut health and kombucha is full of probiotics and 'You should drink it every day because it's going to be really good for you.' I did hear that.

Josh: I drank it. My stomach somehow felt better. But I heard that information.

Crystal: That's a real thing though.

Josh: Yeah. I was like, I definitely feel healthy drinking this based on just hearing your top line is all I knew about it. And so I drank the Kool-Aid or drank the kombucha.

Tommy: And so anyway, so it's not like, yeah, what's the—

Crystal: So then it's about finding out, okay, is that true? Are the health benefits represented as accurately as they seem to be in the media? And how does media, which I mean, I'm a part of, I work in the media, but how does media take findings from scientific studies and spin them to make it seem a little bit more interesting and, you know, a little bit more impressive than it is to get you to click and read something? But is it overstated? Is the question without, you know, spoilers.

Tommy: Without the spoilers, I guess like in the '90s it was the big movement away from fat, and then they were like, you know, flooding that food with sugar.

Crystal: It's like we've had like what, low-fat movements, no sugar moments, keto.

Tommy: I did keto. I've done all of this.

Crystal: Whole30. Yeah, that's like a very American one. Atkins, that was like Jennifer Aniston made Atkins huge. So we've kind of been through all these different health moments, but like are we really any better for it?

Tommy: And then if not, so what's the answer when people say, like, the common thing people say, Josh, just like balance, moderation. And then I just like yell at them and say, I don't know what balance is, you know.

Crystal: I have no self-control. Yeah, exactly.

Tommy: You don't know what it's like to grow up as a fat kid, you know, that sort of thing. How do you perceive balance and moderation?

Crystal: Well, I'm not really a dietitian. Maybe I don't know if I qualified to answer this.

Tommy: No, definitely.

Josh: I mean, specifically to health or—

Tommy: No, no. So this is the thing, like, so How often is the food we eat and all that sort of thing, uh, nutrition, diet, dietary, or dietitian sort of conversation versus like a set of beliefs? Um, like it feels about what's like good food and what's bad food.

Crystal: And you know, if you have something bad, then you need to go to the gym. Yeah, you're allowed a cheat day.

Tommy: I just want to know your day on a plate.

Crystal: My day on a plate. So do you know what, I actually could tell you.

Tommy: Oh yeah, great.

Crystal: Pretty much what I ate every single day because my partner and I for the past— this is going on a massive—

Tommy: no, this is good.

Crystal: That's what you guys—

Josh: this is the podcast.

Crystal: We have pretty much eaten the same thing every single day for all meals, 5 days a week for the past 2 years.

Josh: Wow.

Tommy: Why? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, Uber Eats has got dialled in.

Crystal: It's just for time and money reasons.

Tommy: And so what's the commitment?

Crystal: Are you trying to think about what you eat?

Tommy: Are you part of the FIRE movement? Financially independent, retire early. That's why I froze all those burritos.

Josh: Are they done, by the way?

Tommy: There's 2 left.

Josh: Not bad. And so hang on. So are you a minimalist? Do you like, are you trying to go, how can I strip back my expenses?

Tommy: You're having 5 meals a day. That's not very—

Crystal: Yeah.

Josh: No, not minimal meals, but just minimal needs.

Crystal: Just like the same thing.

Josh: Output. Yeah.

Crystal: No decision-making.

Josh: Yeah.

Crystal: You wake up in the morning.

Tommy: Do you wear the same clothes as well?

Crystal: Okay. That's not all the extra time I then spend standing in front of the wardrobe trying to decide what to wear.

Tommy: And so what do you eat? What's the 5 meals a day? Day that's consistent?

Crystal: You know, like 5 days a week.

Tommy: 5 days a week. Okay, sorry. So you do 3 meals a day?

Crystal: Yeah.

Tommy: Okay, what do you eat?

Crystal: And snacks, actually.

Tommy: Okay, go, go.

Crystal: You guys really want me to go?

Josh: Yeah, no, definitely.

Crystal: So for breakfast, I have 2 boiled eggs.

Tommy: Yeah.

Crystal: A cup of hot water and lemon. Super exciting. Right. For morning tea, I have those little, um, like dried lentil things you get from the supermarket. They're like salted. Yeah, they're like beans, like, you know, just like little, like chickpeas and stuff.

Tommy: Yeah.

Crystal: Yeah, it'd be great with just a little handful of those for morning tea.

Tommy: I don't even have morning tea.

Crystal: I should. How do you get— how do you get—

Tommy: I think I probably—

Josh: no balance.

Tommy: Yeah, I just, I have a lot of coffee and stuff. So morning tea, that's good.

Crystal: Yeah, morning tea. Then for lunch, I'll either have tuna salad or stir-fried noodles. Yeah. And then dinner, you put a dressing on the salad? No. Okay, just olive oil.

Tommy: Okay, go on.

Crystal: This is not—

Tommy: yeah, yeah, no, this is good. No, no, this is good, this is good.

Crystal: And then for dinner, it's either the stir-fried noodle, like I'll make a big batch on a Tuesday night and that'll be the alternate dinner lunch or tofu stir-fry.

Tommy: So you don't value food?

Crystal: Well, on the weekends then we have whatever we want. Okay, all right.

Tommy: And so what do you find that you crave during the week? What's the first thing you have on a Saturday?

Crystal: Bacon and egg roll.

Tommy: Yeah, sure, yeah, yeah. And so—

Crystal: Something like carby and delicious like that.

Tommy: 2 years of doing that means—

Crystal: Yeah, do you know, you don't know, like after about 6 months 6 months, you do not know.

Tommy: 6 months. You've got 6 months of pain.

Crystal: You don't notice it.

Josh: I'm all behind it. I'm all behind it. Because once you do something like that, then you actually understand. If you do something consistently for the 6 months, you then realise where you're falling short.

Tommy: So what were the benefits? Save some cash?

Crystal: Well, it's not so much saving cash, but you know pretty much like what you're going to spend on groceries for that week, for every week, for the rest of the year, for the rest of your life. And you just don't spend any time thinking about what do I want for dinner? What am I going to make for lunch? Do I have the ingredients for that? Wait, now I've got to go to the grocery store midweek because we want to have, I don't know, whatever random meal.

Tommy: Was that a big thing for you before you started doing this? A lot of time?

Crystal: Yeah, I hated— I don't mind cooking. I hate deciding what to make. Hate it.

Tommy: Sounds like a very fresh impression.

Crystal: If someone else decides, I'll happily cook it, but I just don't like choosing.

Tommy: No, I appreciate that.

Josh: Don't get bogged down there. I love this as a headline, or it is the title of the book, but when it comes to sort of the media now, we're very headline driven. I feel like I, we've talked about this before on the podcast, like people who work in media have a real grasp on the world at a headline level because a lot of the time we're not doing investigation into sort of specifics. I mean, you—

Tommy: Especially like within the radio industry, right? It's like Tommy used to work in Shepparton. At a radio station. It's like, you know, go on to the news website, see what the top headlines are, know a couple of sentences on each one, and you're good.

Josh: I think you're good at headlines. Do you think, do you think that's a skill?

Tommy: Yeah.

Crystal: Yeah. Okay. I'll take that.

Josh: What is it? How do you go about finding a headline? Like, what's the thought process behind finding a headline in something that you're working on, a piece of writing for the book? For that matter?

Crystal: I think you need to know what people will care about most about the thing that you're writing, and that might not actually be the crux of the piece or the crux of the argument, if you want to use that terminology. So it's about what's, what's something that's going to grab people's attention, because really we're getting all our news and information from social media pretty overwhelmingly. So it's like a scroll. You need like a thumb stopping moment.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: And so, uh, clickbait. So I guess if you have a, um, an article and then you find the, the most interesting bit, it's not necessarily the meat of the article. Uh, media companies considering that, do they want it? Like, do they need to try to say within YouTube, they're like, they are sort of promoting, or they want people where they click on something and then consume it for a decent period of time, which sort of reduces clickbait? Because if you say one thing and then you click through, then people are going to, you know, leave it. What sort of the internal—

Crystal: it still has to be there, like whatever you kind of put up there as the headline that still has to be in your content in some way, shape or form. But it can evolve. Yeah, you can kind of take that thought and start to grow it into something bigger that you actually might want to communicate rather than just, you know, having that stated fact quite plain maybe isn't going to get the people to read it that really actually should be reading it.

Josh: When it comes to feedback, say, for instance, you put the book out, feedback's a funny thing because if it is negative, it's like one person started an argument but won't let you talk. You know, it's like, or you just decide not to enter back into it. How do you go with feedback? And when it is sort of, I mean, it could be called constructive or constructive criticism. Constructive criticism doesn't necessarily feel good. What's your relationship with feedback? Around the work that you do?

Crystal: I love feedback. So if you guys have any feedback on this book for me, I mean, he told you that it smells good.

Tommy: Well, people don't like— but people— because Tommy's always said to me, people don't like feedback because, like, I— sorry, people don't like giving feedback.

Crystal: Oh, you know, it's uncomfortable.

Tommy: Yeah. And so, because I'll always say, like, try and position us, like, say one bad thing about this. Like, say, like, I just want you in this moment to slam if you were— or It doesn't even have to be what you think. What do you think could be a criticism?

Crystal: What could someone say? Yeah.

Tommy: And so do you have ways of framing that when you're writing the book with editors or people involved that you could rely on to provide that?

Crystal: Yes, I worked with an amazing editor. She's actually based here in Melbourne, and that was quite a confronting process for something that is so like, this is my little baby. I've been working on it for ages. And then you give that first draught over to somebody else whose job it is to actually sit there and go over it with a fine-tooth comb and really nitpick at it was quite confronting, which she was amazing. And I think the key is just to, if something feels painful or uncomfortable and it's like sticking in your side or your gut reaction is to be like, oh no, that's not it. It's more about thinking, why do I, why am I reacting this way to that information? Usually it says more about you, doesn't it?

Tommy: Yeah.

Josh: Well, I think we take the initial gut reaction as the truth, or it's like, well, I feel this way.

Crystal: Yeah.

Josh: And so you're saying like actually observe the feel, that response.

Crystal: Yeah.

Josh: And just see if it's interesting.

Crystal: Why do I react this way to that feedback?

Josh: Yeah, I think even any job starting out, like there's a feedback muscle you build just having— and then there's the— so there's the internal stuff, but then there's the external feed. So once you've created, put out a YouTube video, this goes out, the book goes out, people start saying, like, at what point, how do you, how do you take that? How do you look at that?

Tommy: What's feedback that not necessarily like you can, you can't action on straight away because the book's already out there.

Josh: Yeah.

Crystal: Too late, guys. Sorry, it's done. Do you all want to read draughts of the next one? I don't know. You just have to, you can't take it all to heart, can you?

Josh: No.

Crystal: You have to, if you think it's got merit, then take it on board for improving next time. And if not, just let it go. There's not— I don't know, there's not really anything else you can do.

Tommy: And so how do you set sort of goals or define success when it comes to publishing a book?

Crystal: The number one goal for me was to be really happy with what I put out, and I actually am. I really am. And it's funny, like, as a creative person, I don't know if you guys agree, but it's really hard to then consume the thing that you've created back again. Like, how After you've edited an episode, do you listen to it again?

Tommy: No, I can't. No, no, no, we don't edit either for that very reason, because we can't like—

Crystal: you can't remove yourself from the thing. So the fact that I'm so happy with this and I could happily like sit down and flick through it again and read it again is a huge win for me. I've had overwhelmingly positive feedback. Maybe the people who didn't like it are just too scared to say anything. Yeah, I mean, or that's just like that Uh, or maybe that just means it's hitting the right audience, it's reaching the right people. And I guess with any type of art, it's not for everyone. Yeah, it can't be for everybody.

Josh: So yeah, I mean, it's, it's interesting when you're— that thought of when it feels good for me, it doesn't matter, because then— but then you are trying to analyse that thought to say, is there something wrong with me thinking that it's great, like that I feel good about it?

Crystal: That I'm like happy to rest here and not find like the next thing to make it a little bit better.

Josh: Yeah, exactly.

Crystal: Yeah, because then that's definitely things I would improve or change, but that doesn't stop me from being happy with the thing that I've produced, if that makes sense.

Tommy: If people have just finished a comms degree or they've done journalism and they're trying to find a job, what does the market look like in 2020?

Crystal: It's a mess. Yeah, it really is. It's really tough. You know, the one thing I actually think I could have done without doing my degree and just getting into a publisher and start working as an intern and kind of working my way up. I'm not, I'm not totally sure that you need a degree anymore.

Tommy: Yeah.

Crystal: In media, in media specifically. Obviously there are lots of industries where you really don't need this.

Tommy: Yeah, just, just WebMD. MD is good.

Josh: In your section about robots and talks about that future of work, prob— having problem-solving skills, problem-solving skills isn't going anywhere.

Crystal: Creativity, empathy for other people, understand— knowing how to understand other people. Like, those are the things that we're always going to need no matter what the future of our kind of tech world looks like. Or at least that's what the experts say that I've read.

Tommy: Yeah.

Crystal: Um, and it's the technical, like, aspects of things that that will get replaced.

Josh: Understanding human mind and then being a writer or working in media, like doing a psychology degree. So it's even if it's like no degree or a degree to the side that has added value for if you wanted to work with people, you know, be a psychologist, or you go the other way. It's like you incorporate that into the media landscape, which I think is quite intelligent. I think someone was telling us about that.

Tommy: There's a, like, so if you were to sit down with someone, someone asked, for you to get a coffee or whatever, and they say, oh, I want to chat, like, I've just finished a degree and I want to be a journalist, or I've got these skills. Obviously saying, um, you fucked up, type of thing.

Crystal: Try again, pick a new degree. It doesn't go down super well.

Tommy: Yeah, so how do you, how do you frame those conversations for— because I guess that, like, we've got a bunch of listeners who are in that position that have, um, you know, studied journalism or whatever, and they're out at the other end, and now they're like, now what?

Crystal: How do I, how do I do this? In terms of advice, I think the key thing is to read loads and consume lots of content, which is funny because I know that's— we're kind of in this cultural moment now where people are saying, oh, there's so much content, you don't need to constantly be consuming. Unfortunately, for media, if you want to get into media, I think it is kind of important that you have your finger on the pulse of what's going on and you learn so much that way. And then if your craft is writing, you learn so much about being a better writer by reading great work or reading bad work.

Tommy: How much are you reading?

Crystal: Constantly. Yeah. Every day.

Tommy: Because there's that big movement at the moment, like, you know, trying to read as many books. There's all these YouTubers who are like, I read 100 books in a year. And then there's pushback on that movement now where it's like, no, it's not about—

Crystal: It's not meant to be competitive.

Tommy: Yeah. And there's also even the push. So like It's all about speed reading. And now it's about like, oh, intentional slow. Yeah, it's a bit about the slow reading stuff. Do you find like, when have you found that reading has been most productive for you? What sort of style is it?

Crystal: I like the long reads, but you can't like, sometimes I'll start something I don't anticipate to be as long or as good or whatever on like the bus on the way to work. And you get to your destination like, damn, now I've got to like stop this. Wait till I go home, read more of it on the way home, then wait till I get home. Like, that's just frustrating.

Tommy: Is it fiction or nonfiction?

Crystal: Usually nonfiction. I'm in a big, like, nonfiction moment.

Tommy: And I like how everything's a moment for you. Yeah, it's great. I never called it a moment.

Crystal: Well, now you've made me self-conscious.

Josh: No, no, no.

Tommy: Have you had a moment of fiction? A moment?

Crystal: Yeah, I have.

Tommy: Yeah, yeah. Harry Potter?

Josh: Definitely a moment.

Tommy: Is that the moment? That was a moment.

Crystal: That was very moment.

Tommy: That was a moment. I love thinking about moments. There's so many moments. We're in like 4 moments at once, like the veganism thing, the Game Changers thing. That's a moment.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: Climate change, definitely a moment.

Josh: Yeah. Feminism.

Tommy: I mean, yeah, I mean, that's a moment. I mean, that's like forever moment type of thing, isn't it?

Josh: Well, you could see that surely there's movement past the moment.

Tommy: Post-moment.

Crystal: It's moment to moment.

Josh: Yeah. Yeah.

Tommy: He said that we only have one moment at once.

Crystal: You just have one moment and then you like go to the next moment.

Josh: So the book reading moment, you're in the nonfiction mode.

Crystal: Yeah, nonfiction.

Tommy: And so is it—

Crystal: but that's not just— it's not just reading books, right? Like, I think to go kind of back to that conversation about getting into media, it's reading other people's work, it's reading articles, listening to podcasts. Yeah, reading books as well, but all kinds of— all kinds of content so that you kind of know what's happening and what people are thinking and Are trends different than moments? No, probably not. It's probably the same thing.

Josh: Are you, um, good at switching off, or are you terrible?

Tommy: So you're just always scrolling all the time? Do you at least have night mode on your phone?

Crystal: No. And I know you're not supposed to look at your phone in bed either.

Tommy: Because you've read something about it.

Josh: Yeah, but I think there's a good argument for that.

Crystal: I was reading it in bed.

Josh: I shouldn't be doing—

Crystal: I should not be doing this.

Josh: Yeah, I just think there's a great argument for that. It's like that dark, the whole dark thing, the light at night. I sleep well. I go to bed.

Crystal: Yeah.

Tommy: Like, not everyone's got the same problems.

Josh: Yeah. Because the thing is, like, I don't have a sleeping problem.

Tommy: Like, I go to sleep fine.

Crystal: So you can just get into bed and just go to sleep. Yeah.

Josh: Or what he consumes.

Tommy: Yeah, I listen to audiobooks.

Crystal: Okay.

Tommy: So I, like, have the audiobook on there, just fall asleep.

Crystal: So that kind of, like, lets your mind ease out of—

Tommy: Yeah. And I heard Sandra Sully on a podcast saying that's what she does too. So if it's good enough for Sandra, it's good enough for me.

Crystal: Maybe I'll try that.

Josh: Hey, where does mindfulness play a part in your life? Or does it not?

Crystal: I'm trying to make more time for it.

Tommy: Mindful moment.

Crystal: I'm trying to have a mindful moment. It's really hard. It is really difficult.

Tommy: Have you tried any apps or anything?

Crystal: Yeah, I tried the Calm app for a while when I was having a bit of a rough time, and they've got like the breathing counter on that. Which is like, you know, it counts you in, like breathe in and then hold for 2 and then breathe out. And you just do that for as many cycles as you need to. And that was kind of good. But then they— I'm like a cheapskate when it comes to apps. So lots of the features are now paid features. And I was like, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Josh: So how—

Crystal: I don't really need to be that mindful. Get rid of this.

Josh: There's YouTube content. Just search meditation YouTube and it's just hundreds of hours.

Tommy: What do you spend money on? Like, because I, I think that there's like, there's definitely, uh, the type of person who's like very good at like saving and all that sort of thing. Do you have anything that you have unlimited budget on, on what you'd spend?

Crystal: At the moment, most of my money is going back into marketing the book, growing ZFeed, which is really exciting. But in terms of like the fun stuff, I think I probably spend on socialising more than anything. Yeah, coffees, eating out. Going out for a drink on a weekend with people I love. I don't really buy loads of stuff.

Josh: Yeah, minimalist, told you.

Crystal: Yeah, so I was thinking, trying, trying my best.

Tommy: So I was thinking, um, about brands and media and influence and all that sort of thing. I guess you've sort of played in both, both realms, like from a, like, you know, dealing with brands and things like that. There's obviously the call-out culture that's happening now, or the cancel culture. Where do you think it's going to land with, with all of this stuff? Are we going to get to it? Because if things aren't black and white, I worry that if we start calling shit out, then everything in our world's just going to start to collapse. We're going to be like, oh fuck, well, this thing, like, this manufacturer is actually doing this thing as well, so we can't do this and we can't do that.

Crystal: It's such a fine line between cancel culture or call-out culture and encouraging transparency, which is what I think— I like to think that people's hearts are in the right places, and the reason they're being so vocal is because they actually do want to bring that transparency forward. But I mean, I guess it's about finding the right way. I actually think it's more in the response. I think if you get called out for whatever, if you respond well, people seem to be happy with that. I mean, if you kind of dig in.

Josh: Yeah.

Crystal: Or don't take— I don't know.

Josh: No, I see what you mean. But then the conversation or the discussion could be around the need for the person to even respond. Like Justin Bieber has been called out for not talking about it too.

Tommy: What's happened?

Josh: Oh, I was pissed off at this article I read. He's been called out by— and everyone in the comments were. So it was just obviously—

Tommy: why are you reading the comments?

Josh: Because it's usually an indication.

Crystal: Comments is good.

Josh: It's an indication of where people's heads are at based on the headline. So this was like Justin Bieber not talking about the fires. Not good enough. Yeah, it's like, and then it was about him having 20 cars and all this. It's like the kid—

Crystal: someone really spun a story.

Josh: The kids in America, like, yeah, sure, you know, but you can pull any idea and like, he's toured here, he's made all this money from here. But if, like, if he doesn't want to donate, like, I don't know how much we can hate on the guy when he might not have been thinking about it in the first place.

Crystal: But like, it didn't really get any traction, right? So then is it just like, is it really— is he really being called out?

Josh: What is that? What is— yeah, exactly. I don't know the answer. Roger Federer is— one of his main sponsors is a big bank. That have been funding a whole bunch of, uh, search for fossil fuel and all this stuff. So they, they have clients that use their bank and services, debt services, to use that money to then go and try and source this stuff.

Crystal: And then he—

Josh: this guy is like just making money. He was a tennis player. Like, it's a weird spiral, right? And then the people being called out about specific things people will, like, the guilt associated with the, the sort of ricochet effect of like someone, someone gets sunburnt and feels real guilt around it. And I don't know how positive that is, but then I also like, what's the other side? The positive hypocrite.

Tommy: I guess there's hypocrisy as well. Like, how do we, like, so when, uh, am I being a coward because I don't want to call out things because I know that I'm not perfect and there's probably shit that I can be called out for because it's uncomfortable for me?

Crystal: But then do you let it be worse for other people by not— that's like kind of the argument, isn't it? It's like, do I not, do I not say anything because I don't want to be—

Tommy: well, that's the whole MeToo thing, right? Like, in a lot of ways it's like the— by not talking about it, you're creating a bigger issue when it's like everyone has a responsibility.

Crystal: I think this is something we're kind of working through to get to maybe a more nuanced way of dealing with it all. But right now it's all quite new and everybody has a platform now to say their piece and to kind of have that loudspeaker to call someone out if they really wanted to. Whereas, you know, 20 years ago you didn't really have that, did you, as an individual person? So maybe we're all just working it out a little bit to get to a more elevated understanding of when it's appropriate and when it's not.

Tommy: And so how do you have the conversation? So on the call-out culture type of stuff, how do we actually— so if it is black and white, if it is seen as black and white It seems like it can be hard to have a conversation around a lot of these things because it's like, if you're not with us, you're against us. How do you deal with that? I don't know what the answer is, so I'm asking you.

Crystal: You just have to keep having the conversation.

Tommy: Are you someone that would call out? Have you called? Have you actively been involved in calling people out or part of that sort of culture?

Crystal: Oh gosh, I don't think so. But maybe like I don't remember and someone's gonna listen to this and then call me out for forgetting when I called someone else out.

Josh: You'd remember writing the Justin Bieber article, I'll tell you what.

Tommy: Well, yeah, I mean, like, what about from a journal? I remember when I worked at Southern Cross Austereo, I was a digital content producer.

Josh: Is this a call out?

Tommy: Yeah, I was, well, I was calling someone else. No, I was just, for whatever reason, like every digital content producer had to write for, at the time it was called The Dirt. Which is like, yeah, it's like the, you know, clickbait articles around pop culture. So what would happen is like the head person at The Dirt would send, this is what Perez is writing about, and sort of basically take those, like jump on that. Yeah, jump on that and all that sort of thing. And so I just always like, Lindsay Lohan's at it again, but are we surprised? Like just being an absolute bitch.

Crystal: They have to go on your bio. Like, was it your byline?

Tommy: So it was, yeah, Web Guy Josh. But the funny thing was that Web Guy Josh, when they built the new CMS, I think everyone became Web Guy Josh.

Crystal: It just got massive.

Tommy: Yeah. And so there was an article, I think that there was a— I think it was like a blog post about a cake, like a layered cake that went viral. And it was Web Guy Josh, which I didn't write.

Josh: You didn't write it, but you took it.

Tommy: But yeah. And so I just, I don't know, I just worry about all of this stuff and whether it's going to actually worry about the people who are calling out the other people that it could potentially be, uh, it could have negative consequences. Like for instance, like our friends Shameless, they're doing I Pledge, great initiative around skin, uh, skincare, melanoma, all that sort of thing.

Crystal: That's in partnership with Call Time on Melanoma, I'm pretty sure.

Tommy: And so something like that, which is a really important— like, we need to do all this sort of thing. We need to be educating.

Crystal: It's only— it's like wear sunscreen, it's only positive.

Tommy: Yeah, yeah. And so the— so say at the moment they're sort of like making it clear around these people are, uh, promoting accelerators or oils or things that are basically fucking people up from a cancer point of view, you know, like it's glamour—

Crystal: it's like glamourizing, glamorising all that sort of thing.

Tommy: But then I wonder, I'm like, okay, use alcohol as an example. So I'm like, alcohol is a carcinogen. If you go to California and you go to a bar, there's like signs that says, you know, on this premises there's like, you know, carcinogens or whatever because of the alcohol. And so I was like, okay, so if alcohol is a carcinogen and causes cancer, what then if we're, if we're, say, a podcast and doing an alcohol brand deal? So if we have a, you know, we're at Moondog or whatever, we're doing a beer, uh, deal. If we start saying, hey, the— this brand over here has a product that is causing cancer, where do we set us as a position in regards to that, the alcohol side of things? I don't—

Crystal: oh, like the brand partnership?

Tommy: Yeah. So if I'm doing a brand partnership with an alcohol brand, how—

Crystal: so you're saying like if you wanted to then So if we call out another—

Tommy: yeah, so if you were to call out— so if we were to do the, uh, using the I Pledge example, uh, if we were to then call out a brand around the skin cancer type stuff, do we then also need to do a complete audit of every single brand and say, actually, these 3 or 4 brands have all had these issues in regards to ethics?

Crystal: Yeah, I think so. I think you have to if you want to then stand up and say something about it down the track.

Tommy: And so how do, like, how do they, as an example, do, like, how do Michelle and Zara, with what they're building, because they've got this great community, they've built something that's, uh, where they are critical about different things, combining that with brand deals, doing that type of thing, how do we navigate this stuff?

Crystal: Very very carefully. I think it's also probably part of the brands needing to understand that it's up to them to also listen to the conversation and make some of those changes if it's then called for, you know what I mean? Like, I don't know, there's an argument to say that brands have a great deal of power to change how our society looks and, and how actually it works. On par with governments because of the amount of influence that they carry with people. So if we are then encouraging them to kind of make those positive changes, then that could be a good thing. And if you have party with those brands through brand partnerships to have that conversation, maybe they should use it.

Tommy: And so like something like alcohol, like where do, where do you think that fits? It's a hard—

Crystal: like, I don't know, really, it's really thinking about it, right?

Tommy: And I'm like torn because I'm like I completely understand where Michelle and Zara are coming from with I Pledge, and I completely— and because— and what's— and, you know, I speak to Bree, my girlfriend, about it, and she's like, oh, like, this person's like died of melanoma, or this person's thing— like, there's real storeys that are emotional and connected to this cause, uh, and I guess I just look at it from a slightly different framing, not having heard those conversations and think— and then I go down a rabbit hole of on Cancer Council website, how many people have died of alcohol, um, like cancer caused by alcohol.

Crystal: That question is almost, is there, is there a— there is arguably a responsible way of enjoying alcohol. So is there a responsible way of suntanning? And if not, then that's kind of the line.

Tommy: So it's the black and white. So it's the Yeah, because I guess that's the—

Crystal: but you'd have to know, like, then part of it's culture.

Tommy: Some of it's like culture as well, right? Which is like, are we uncomfortable as a nation or a society to call out alcohol as being a thing because it's what we do on a Friday night?

Crystal: 100%.

Josh: How deep does it go? If you wanted to go to tanning products that don't require the sun but continue the cultural view on tan skin.

Tommy: What's the whole like tanning of a can? Like if we're really going to go all in, wouldn't we just say actually like the perception to your point of having a tan is an aesthetic that we want to—

Crystal: But this is now where like take down the beauty industry. That's where this conversation goes. 'Cause it's like, why do you even need to look like you have a tan even though you didn't tan?

Tommy: And so where do we— where does it sit in regards to how can we ethically be involved in something like the beauty industry or have connections with the alcohol industry and still create a difference? How do we work out, like, do we just allow that sometimes things are like— there is hypocrisy and we can be hypocrites, but that doesn't mean that we shouldn't do something else?

Crystal: Yeah, I guess so. Like, you just always got to try and do better. And those are really individual decisions. Like, if, you know, if you guys then decided that, you know, you weren't going to do— you weren't going to create amazing video content for alcohol brands ever, like that was a line in the sand that you wanted to draw on, which we're happy with.

Tommy: The Moondog partnership.

Josh: Yeah, great establishment.

Tommy: Really good. Yeah, I had a beautiful Moondog.

Crystal: What a temple.

Tommy: Yeah, but I just don't understand. But this is the thing, but like bacon, like that causes cancer too. Everything fucking causes cancer.

Crystal: Everything will kill you.

Tommy: And so I guess that's the point, is it's just like, I just don't know where the line is. Like, there is an uncomfortable nature I have to that content that's going out there, and I feel like I'm a bit of a fuckwit. Like, I should be just having this conversation with them because they're our friends, uh, but the— I struggle or feel uncomfortable with the calling out of people, especially individuals like influencers or—

Crystal: So you would be more happy if it was just a movement to change the way that we think about things without actually saying—

Tommy: It's the call-out that I struggle with.

Crystal: But these brands are doing it wrong.

Tommy: And so I think that by saying these brands are doing it wrong—

Crystal: So you kind of just want the public pressure without naming the brands or the individuals to then just have enough public pressure around the topic to get them to change their ways kind of organically.

Tommy: Yeah, I don't like—

Josh: I think if you're willing to call someone out, be ready for someone to call you out. Because it is, it's like a, you've thrown the first arrow.

Crystal: Yeah, and be ready to be wrong. Like, maybe not in this instance, but you might not be right.

Josh: Yeah, you talked about transparency. I think it's important because if you're not worried about being called out on anything, then it's— or you're willing to have a conversation to see, ah yeah, I fucked up right there. That's pretty, that's pretty powerful in terms of just owning it. Yeah, and moving on and sort of shifting your belief. Like, if we know that beliefs are malleable, we can shift them, you know, for worse or good, hopefully for the good. It's like, that is the powerful thing to acknowledge and have these kind of conversations and write this kind of a book. Like, it's— it all contributes to like understanding. And this being you showing the different sides is like actually a zoomed out macro level on here's a problem, there's a few different options.

Crystal: There's different ways you can kind of look.

Josh: Yeah, yeah.

Tommy: And so, yeah, and so where does critical thinking and around these types of things— like, I guess, say we're becoming more and more savvy from a media point of view.

Crystal: Yeah, for sure.

Tommy: Um, yeah, I find like it's a hard time. Like, I think that it's, it's a, it's a bit of a pain. It's a painful time for a lot of people because there's there's so many different thoughts and things that are happening that we're having to put it through our filter system. And then there's also the thing of saying, okay, we, um, I believe this thing to be true, but does it mean that I have to take this whole thing? Like, do we, do we have to take truths as a whole, or can we pick from here and pick from there?

Crystal: The cherry picking worries me. I don't know if you can, but you have to have a really broad understanding of like it in its entirety to know whether or not the bits that you are cherry-picking actually do hold true in the breadth.

Tommy: What about disagreeing with friends? So for instance, like we haven't talked about the Shameless thing, I've been thinking about it.

Crystal: Are you calling them out?

Tommy: Yeah, it's a slight call out. Can we get this as a snippet? Maybe it's good for brand. Maybe finally we'll fucking get on that Apple Podcast listener of the year or some shit. But yeah, no, but like, how— like, you can disagree with friends, you can have different opinions. And then I worry about things like nepotism and yeah, like, how do you think that this is all going to be navigated? Whereas we're producing more content, people are becoming sort of their own media brands. How can they be considering all of these elements?

Crystal: I think it's it's going to be a great thing because you'll realise the differences within the people in your own circle. 'Cause I know I certainly have a tendency to think that all of my friends and my loved ones think very similarly to the way I do. But if you really have the conversations with them around like these topics, it's not, it's definitely not the case. And then that is almost a strength to know that someone that you really care for and you like and you love and respect and all of those things, is on like the other side of the fence, that's quite powerful because it then takes it away from being like bad and good or left and right. And it's like, no, this is just something that people think. And understanding why is really important.

Josh: I mean, maybe we think that if someone doesn't get to our line of thinking around a certain topic, veganism, they won't get it because you need to understand what I understand. For you to make the change, to make the radical change, which I don't think it's that simple. I don't think the line is that clear.

Tommy: But the argument even on the skin cancer thing is it's like you look at it, you can be like, what, you want people to have skin cancer? Like, you fucking— are you an idiot? Like, these people are dying. Like, go to Peter Mack. Like, are you fucking— like, but then I guess that it's, uh, it's interesting around picking different nuances within something And I guess that that can even happen with news where, or even say, for instance, the bushfires. There's been sort of the big pushback on the media talking about like arson as being a factor. And so, my initial thoughts was like, oh, like if some of it's arson, like, should we be reporting? Like, maybe we should be reporting on it. But then it seems like the conversation around arson is seen as a direct threat or impact to the popular or correct narrative around climate change.

Crystal: It's like it's a tool used— is this a tool that's being used to detract from the bigger, more important argument?

Tommy: And so if it's, if it's true, but it is a distraction from a larger narrative that we're on board with, should we be suppressing that truth?

Crystal: I don't think it's about suppressing it. Isn't it just giving it its right? Like, not all things have equal weight. Yeah, like, not, not all sides of the debate are equal.

Tommy: And so I guess by focusing on the arson thing, it takes away from the, uh, storm that's happening in regards to trying to create change within government and things like that.

Crystal: Yeah, and shifting people's focus onto the thing that really probably needs all of our focus at the moment. Yeah, with this other thing that's like kind of happening on the side in a much smaller way, but blowing it up to seem as big as— like, as if it's a 50-50 split. Yeah, when they're not contributing, as I understand, in an equal way.

Tommy: Yeah, because I guess it comes down to because I like getting in the nitty-gritty of stuff.

Crystal: I love this.

Tommy: And so I guess like the slight concern is that there's a, um, when it feels like dogma. So for instance, taking the example of the climate change stuff, being like, no, we're not talking about this specific thing because that's being overstated or whatever. I start then worrying about like, oh, like why are we— hang on, like we're all for like free— like we're trying to like work this stuff out. Like isn't there a complete sort of holistic approach to these types of things. And I just, I don't know the answer. I don't even know.

Crystal: It's a curly one. There's a lot of, a lot of this really comes back to how the media presents and controls information, and not so much whether that is, without getting into whether that's the right or wrong thing to do, but more about whether people understand that that is how storeys can be changed or represented in different ways. Because if people don't understand that, then that's when it becomes a little bit dangerous. Because if you, if you take that same kind of idea, so if you know the numbers of these bushfires that had been started by arson and the numbers that had been started by natural causes, and then what role climate change kind of played in exacerbating all of it. If you had all of that information to hand and you already knew it before you read the article about the arson, then you're probably going to still have a pretty good grasp of what's happening. But if you don't have all of that information immediately to hand, and the first article you come across is saying, 'This is why it's happening, this is the absolute focus that we should have, and this is what we need to tackle,' then the chances are that that's going to lead how you interact with all of the rest of the of the content and the information that's out there and kind of lead what you think.

Josh: What's guiding the narrative.

Crystal: Yeah, that's the risky part because we only have so much time in a day. You can't just— we all got to work. You can't just sit there consuming content and try to figure out what's real and what's not.

Josh: I mean, we all want less bushfires, less cancer, all of these things.

Tommy: And we also want to do— I think like the thing is too, maybe this is part of it. So my thing is like, we should be doing everything we can to be having renewable energy. We should be like, in my mind, that's like a no-brainer. And so part of it is like when I'm going on it with that filter, then it feels like I can take some of that arson news or whatever as like a piece, like a blip in the whole thing.

Crystal: Like one piece of the puzzle where—

Tommy: but I guess that used in the wrong way or using it in a way to feed another narrative or a group of people who don't believe in all those things, that's where it becomes destructive.

Crystal: Yeah. And like for people in media, we, we already kind of have this background knowledge. So it's so easy to, to fall into the trap of thinking like everybody comes to it with that same understanding. But people really don't. Yeah, people really don't. And that's kind of where getting that baseline of background information out there to me is really important so that particularly young Australians can come to the news, which is by its very nature, it's new. It's not actually all of the contents, context. It's not the background. It's just the newest piece of information. If they have a little bit of the background understanding, it will kind of help them contextualise that for themselves and decide what they actually think and help them engage with those topics. That's the goal.

Tommy: Like, I've, I've, um, been reading stuff about Iran. Yeah, I'm trying to learn stuff. I got all these books. Uh, Gronkh Jake actually gave me a stack of, of books on Iran. But I think that, like, these things are interesting when you start seeing, say, news reports, and then you can see both sides, but you can see where agenda is playing a part, a big role.

Josh: Yeah, I think a good takeaway is be up for hearing someone who is completely convinced the other side. If anything, it should inform. If anything, if your argument has weight, it should empower your—

Tommy: But isn't— But wouldn't there be an argument, I think, to people who, like, say the climate change sort of thing, like, I guess the left are more open to hearing stuff, but I think something with climate change, it's like, or anti-vaxx type stuff, it's like no, the science is there. Like, I'm not— like, it's— I guess we're starting to get to the tail end of things where it's like, no, these actual things— it's unproductive talking about, uh, whether climate change a thing or not because we're talking about fact and fiction. Like, is there an element of, of— I guess, um, we talk about dogma or things just like, uh, just being set in your ways or saying this is how things are. Is there certain things that where we need to do that?

Crystal: Where we just cut it off and stop talking?

Tommy: Yeah, where we cut it off and say, okay, like there's actually, we're using different rule books. We've got different games that we're playing. I'm using this thing, which is science and this, and you're using this other thing.

Crystal: I don't think so. And maybe it's just that we're not there yet in the kind of current issues that everyone's facing. But I think if you, if the goal is to change things for the better, there is at least a portion of those people who are maybe on the wrong side of the argument that you're still going to need to convince, basically, for want of a better word. And I think the best way of doing that is kind of finding that common ground and getting down to the why so that you can hopefully show them something that just triggers something inside them to open up a worldview a little bit more.

Tommy: Definitely triggered, that's for sure. I mean, there's some great things.

Crystal: This conversation has been triggering.

Tommy: Hot buttons.

Josh: Hot buttons. In this book, How to Win Every Argument.

Tommy: I'm off to get my 10 free session health plan after this convo. How to Win Every Argument. It's a great coffee table book as well, but not, but perfect for the modern hipster who doesn't have a big coffee table. 'Cause it's small.

Crystal: Yeah, it's little.

Tommy: It's not like your big fucking Dior, which I'm sure are fashion-wise unethical.

Crystal: But on the other hand, if you're doing one of those, 100 Books in 2020 Challenge. It's a very good one, quick one to bash out.

Josh: Yeah, an hour read. Crystal Andrews, thanks for coming in.

Crystal: Thanks for having me, guys.

Tommy: It's The Daily Talk Show.

Josh: If you want to send any complaints, any call-outs, send them through to Mason at josh@bigmedia. No, sorry, josh@thedailytalkshow.com.

Tommy: Should we set that as an alias? Oh yeah, we can. That's quite funny.

Crystal: Call out.

Tommy: What would you like to call out? Call out Maybe there is something that maybe we could do one call out in 2020, but I just call somebody out. Well, yeah, we call someone out, but I just want to cheque my sort of history to make sure that there's no—

Crystal: just do a quick delete.

Tommy: Yeah, a few archives on the Instagram before we go for any call outs. But, um, go hard, guys. Yeah, or go home. Uh, it's a daily talk show. Have a good one, guys.