Lucy Green, Homebody Club

Josh: The Daily Talk Show, episode 565. And we got Lucy Green in the studio from Homebody Club.

Tommy: Uh, Homebody Club was a side hustle. I guess it still is a side hustle. Uh, you're one of a few friends that have side hustles. I feel like what we're doing feels a little bit different because it's not like we're employed by anyone else?

Josh: Well, remember how that guy once said to me, I won't name his name, he said until you're paid, you know, 60% of your income comes from it, you can't say that you're actually the thing.

Tommy: Oh yeah, sure.

Josh: I mean, I told him to get fucked. It didn't mean anything.

Tommy: And so how did you, how did Homebody come about?

Lucy: Homebody came about because, so I transitioned from corporate life to a startup in marketing.

Josh: What is the real difference like for somebody that I mean, maybe this like corporate versus sort of startup land. Yeah.

Lucy: So I went from a team of 60 to a team of 3. Okay. And set hours from like very fluid hours and just the general environment. I think like going from corporate, lots of formal meetings and things like that and just like, oh, you guys here, invitation, hanging.

Josh: Lots of loopholes, like lots of sort of loops to jump through in corporate versus like a business that doesn't have as many systems. Therefore, you kind of— it's a bit looser to get things and, and quicker to get things.

Lucy: Yeah, you definitely have to follow a hierarchy. There are all these rules and even just, um, general, um, environment and like things that they've already done that they like to follow. So, um, yeah, whereas startup is very like you just do whatever you want kind of thing. There's no rules. You have a lot more, um, um, autonomy.

Tommy: Yeah. Yeah.

Lucy: Thank you.

Tommy: Is the— do you think it's easier to do a side hustle in a corporate or a startup?

Lucy: Well, personally for me, um, I started it when I went to a startup. I started Homebody Club when I went to a startup because I just didn't have the brain space to even think up something new, um, working technically it would be 9 to 5, but it's like 8 till 6, 8 till 7, coming home and being exhausted. And so transitioning from the startup was really initially for my mental health, just to give myself that white space to start being creative again.

Josh: I love it. So like, you're— when you're the cog in the big machine, it's like they work you. You're really just getting it done.

Tommy: So what I love about Homebody Club is you're doing community stuff. Like there's a very big element of community, but it's also for introverts.

Lucy: Yeah.

Tommy: How does—

Lucy: yeah.

Tommy: And so how does, like, how does that work? What's been the challenges of, like, when you think about like entrepreneurs or people doing stuff, if you're on podcasts and you're appearing places, people are, you know, doing Insta stories. People tend to be extroverted. Has that been a challenge trying to create a community as someone that's an introvert?

Lucy: Yeah, it's definitely been a block. And initially when I started Homebody Club, it was so that I didn't have to use my own name so I could make it about the community and not about myself, not be front-facing. And I kind of learned that I need to start putting myself out there more because you need to create that connection for the community. Um, so yeah, it's really pushing my own personality boundaries to get out there and talk to people. And I've definitely seen that when I do put myself out there, it's people sliding into my DMs, having that conversation. Yeah. And creating that discussion and community. Yeah, it's been more—

Josh: you can easier to make the connection quicker through using yourself. Yeah. I mean, the thing is extroverts also have the same battle.

Tommy: Maybe, but like reconciling it differently, I guess.

Josh: Yeah. And so when both sides do, it's like, yeah, stepping into that is the powerful choice to make. Maybe it is harder as an extrovert because it's not as natural to want to be the lime— be in the limelight or something like that. Yeah, it's interesting. I mean, what in terms of being an introvert, what does that mean for you? What's like your your operating system as an introvert?

Lucy: Um, so I'd say like I really thrive on having my own space and my own time. Um, yeah, quiet space. I work from home now, which is great for me. Um, and it's— I like, I love to be social and hang out with friends, but it's having that time by myself to recuperate and like get my energy back in a sense.

Josh: How does an introvert work in a as a cog in a big machine, like, you know, a corporate environment?

Lucy: I did have my headphones on a lot. Yeah, thank God for headphones, which they probably— managers hated. But, um, yeah, when I really needed to focus, my headphones would be on and I'd be listening to podcasts or listening to Spotify.

Josh: Yeah.

Lucy: Um, and just, yeah, trying to create those boundaries, or even like sneaking off at lunch for 10 minutes just to walk by myself for 10 minutes around the block just to Yeah, try to get that space in my day.

Josh: Yeah. I mean, Josh, you think you're an introvert?

Tommy: Yeah, I think that I'm probably an introvert that ended up doing extracurricular activities to work on things that made me better skilled with things that most introverts aren't potentially. But I think that for me, the best possible weekend is nothing on or like not seeing anyone.

Josh: Or so you're a Monday to Friday extrovert? Yeah, Saturday, Sunday. Introvert. Mr. Nice7, what do you— I've never really heard you class yourself as anything other than just a perfect specimen, which you are.

Tommy: Probably, probably extrovert.

Josh: I think I get all my energy and motivation from being around people.

Tommy: But yeah, it's probably that like social anxiety side of things that makes you more introverted or think you're more introverted.

Josh: Can you, can you change, do you think? Like, do you reckon you could actually become an extrovert or vice versa?

Lucy: I feel like you could move on the spectrum because I, um, so I did the Myers-Briggs personality test when I was in year 12. They got an agency to come in and do it, and I was actually classed as an extrovert then. Um, and so now on the scale, I'm like way introverted. Um, so I, I—

Tommy: what do you think changed?

Lucy: Yeah, I started hating people. Um, I don't know, maybe I feel like— was— I'm questioning whether I even was extroverted to that extent, or whether it was from a social point of view that I was like being extroverted to fit in. And now I'm comfortable in saying like, oh, I'm just going to stay home tonight on a Saturday night with my cats and my boyfriend and watch Netflix. Um, whereas before I would go out and I probably did a lot of the extrovert activity, so that was deemed as being extroverted.

Tommy: Uh, you got like a business coach. Is that what you, what you call them? Or like, I remember speaking to you early on in the stages and you were talking about having someone supporting. What was, what was that like?

Lucy: Um, it was really interesting. I think from an entrepreneur perspective of when you're by yourself, like you guys, you get to bounce ideas off of each other, um, and it creates that really like creative space. But when you're by yourself, it's really hard to do. So, um, even just having a business coach to be able to bounce ideas off of and brainstorm, knowing that everything— like, you're in a safe space. It was really, it was a really good way to start to, to create the foundations of what I wanted to do.

Tommy: Was that day one? Like, so you decided— so you've moved from corporate to startup. You had the idea of— was it, I want to do something and then working out the Homebody Club thing, or was it saying, like, where did it sort of fit? In regards to coming up with the idea?

Lucy: I wanted to, so I was listening to a lot of podcasts, reading a lot of articles about self-development, wellness, mindfulness, and I didn't really have anybody to talk to about it. And I felt like my boyfriend would kill me if I kept on bringing it up.

Josh: So what's his go-to? What is it? What is it? What would, how could you relate to him if you're listening to content?

Tommy: What is he like? He's hockey. Hockey?

Lucy: He plays hockey.

Tommy: He does? He plays hockey.

Josh: I thought it was just some obscure random sport.

Tommy: He loves to play hockey.

Lucy: American politics.

Tommy: Does he really?

Lucy: Yeah, he does.

Josh: You need to listen to, yeah, some really right-leaning— yeah, which is something with a few facts.

Lucy: Yeah, that's not my shtick. So no, I get it. So I want to start a community, and, um, I was trying to work out how I wanted to do it, whether it was just over social, um, but because my background is digital marketing, I thought of a newsletter, um, and then tying it in with a blog and then social media as well. So it was kind of basically what I've been doing with my entire career and then moving that with the skills that I've learned into my own project.

Josh: How much harder is it doing the thing you do for other people for yourself? Did you find it harder? I find it sometimes a harder thing to work for someone else. No, it's even so, say, for instance, it's like doing the thing you do for others all the time. So you did the digital marketing thing. But how do you— but then applying all of that to a thing that you've created.

Lucy: Yeah, I, um, I think, um, I really struggled with perfectionism, um, because I was the only one that was coming up with the ideas but then also doing the actions as well to get it done. I was always like tweaking and finessing and not wanting to go live because I wanted it to be perfect, whereas when you're doing something for someone else, they have that vision and you're basically just doing it for them and there's no emotional connection or like ego behind it.

Josh: Yeah, it's definitely the— I think the— when it's your baby, it's like you almost— yeah, you, you want to tick a few more boxes. Someone else, you're just like, there you go, if they like it then it's fucking sweet because you could keep finessing anything that you create for a long time.

Lucy: And that's the issue, it's like not having your identity entwined with your creative projects or work, and that's a really hard thing to do.

Tommy: I mean, you've— you did a whole over a year of doing a newsletter every single week.

Lucy: Yeah.

Tommy: Is that continuing in 2020? What's, what's the plan?

Lucy: It is. So I'm having a 2-week hiatus just so I can refresh, and I think I'll do a bit of like design tweaking, um, but just giving myself that space to be able to come up with ideas and, um, not being— yeah, kind of like the cog in corporate, but I could keep on doing the same thing every week, but it's nice to stop and actually review it and, um, yeah, make some tweaks to better it going forward.

Tommy: So what's the— because your newsletter had a bunch of recommendations in it, it was quite like— there's a lot of content.

Lucy: It's a lot.

Tommy: How do you actually sort of format it? Like, throughout the week, are you finding bits and pieces?

Lucy: Yeah, so I just have, um, in my Notes app, um, on my phone, I just have like a newsletter Notes. And so throughout the week I'll just put in— so there's 3 topics: what to read, what to browse, and what to listen to. And so I'll just add links throughout the week. And sometimes people DM me and be like, oh, this is a really good article, you should put it in your newsletter. And so I start to get like a little bit of a bank. But yeah, I was basically— well, I am finding new things, fresh stuff every week.

Josh: The business coach thing, I— it's, it's so interesting because it like It makes so much sense. You're by yourself, you need that other person. I think it's in a team. I've been thinking a business coach would even be a worthwhile thing. So in the opposite environment to you.

Lucy: Yeah.

Josh: What is— how do you find a good business? Like, what is a— what is a good— I mean, maybe good is a different— how do you find a business coach that is right for you?

Lucy: I don't know. I guess you have to determine what you want from it and going into it, how you're going to show up and what you're looking you're looking for and somebody that just personality-wise you mesh well with. Um, and so before, if you determine what you want, then you can go out there looking for somebody with the history or the background or something that they've achieved. So then they're kind of like your role model as well.

Josh: And how did you find your one?

Lucy: Um, so she also has a podcast, um, and through social, but I haven't actually used her in a while. Um, And that's not from like— she's an amazing coach, I'll definitely go back. But I started feeling like I was relying on her acceptance of my ideas to— before I actually did anything. So I was not taking the action.

Tommy: I almost created a manager. Yeah, that you had to go to.

Lucy: And I was just— I was creating another excuse to just not do the thing and do the work. So I decided to stop just to give myself the confidence in my own abilities.

Josh: I mean, it's, it's probably the business that she— they want to build. It's like, imagine having all these people, yeah, feeling like they need to— I mean, I wonder if it's on purpose, or I wonder if that's just what happens with the—

Tommy: well, I think that it— you, um, the coach probably did exactly what they needed to do, which was help you identify where you are on your path and all that sort of thing. I guess it's like a a good osteo or physio, or like once they've done their stuff, there's actually a point where you don't necessarily need them day to day and you can pick them up.

Josh: I think, think about meditation apps where that you sort of lock— you're not locked in, but you, you build a consistency around using the thing. I even think like, fuck, I know I want— not that I won't do it if I couldn't access the app, but even last night I was like trying to get in, there's no reception where I was It's like, fucking Sam Harris, that wouldn't work. I need it, I need it. And so you could build like a, if I don't have the app, I won't be doing it. Yeah, it's interesting.

Tommy: You did, um, input like an in-person event as well, or like, you know, running that sort of breakfast style meetups. How did you find that as opposed to say doing, having a digital community?

Lucy: Um, I really liked it. I think there needs to be some form of in real life community aspect to it, which I'm thinking about how I'm going to build out in 2020.

Tommy: Um, yeah, is it harder with introverts? Yeah, homebody, I guess, like by design they don't necessarily want to leave the house.

Lucy: Yeah, well, I had lots of interest and there was like a— so I only maxed it at 10 so that we could actually have conversations and to connect and not just like a giant group of people. And I had a waitlist, so obviously the homebodies were interested in it. But personally, um, so you went for like 2 or 3 hours in the morning, but then the rest of the day I was just stuffed. Like, I had no energy. I was completely just like, yeah, I had to stay home and just like lay and watch Netflix and do nothing because, yeah, my introvert was like, whoa, dude. Yeah, what have you done?

Tommy: What was the format like?

Lucy: Um, format was pretty chill. We just all came together, ordered coffee, um, and I think I just asked people about that, how their day's going, how their week's going. That kind of started it. Um, I didn't go in with any like pre-organized questions or anything like that. It was just, it kind of, yeah, flowed. And yeah, it was good.

Tommy: Do you think you find that easier than even doing like general social stuff? Is it easier when you are leading a community or building it?

Lucy: Um, because they can—

Tommy: well, I guess, I guess you've got permission. Well, you've got permission to just like run it, right? Whereas if you go to like, uh, you're meeting up with a few friends, there's no real clear expectation. But did you feel the pressure of like, it's my job to run this thing?

Lucy: I'm actually okay when I know the expectations. So if I'm going into an event knowing that I need to lead it, then I'm fine with with that. And that's the same as in my career. If I'm leading a presentation or a meeting, I'm fine with that because I can prepare myself mentally. But yeah, it's going into situations where you don't know that— that's like the social anxiety.

Josh: Yeah, we— because you can sort of bring a— not a person, you may be a persona. You can put— wear a mask. Yeah, I think as a personal trainer, I'd front up. You kind of know everyone knows what you're there for. And then you just deliver what you— so it could almost like bring the— it allows you to tap into a confidence.

Lucy: Definitely.

Josh: Which is, yeah, it's an interesting thing. I mean, starting a— if someone's thinking of starting an email list in 2020, a lot— I think people would think it's sort of old school, but if anything, I've seen more right now. I've seen, yeah, it is so hot right now.

Lucy: Well, I would say to create an email list because you can never control anything that you like your audience on social media. So you don't know when Instagram is going to stop, when Facebook is going to stop, or when they'll start charging businesses to be using it. So an email list, you have complete control, you own it. So if anything happened to like even if you get hacked and suddenly everything's lost, you still can contact your customers.

Josh: But how many people wouldn't have email lists that are influencers?

Lucy: Oh, so many.

Josh: And so I think, yeah, it's stronger. It's an asset.

Tommy: Is it? So building an email list versus an Instagram following in 2019? Did you— which one did you find to be more difficult?

Lucy: Um, well, my, my email list is definitely smaller than my Instagram following, um, but I would say that, um, my, uh, email subscribers are probably valued more, as in that they are really committed and are interested in Homebody Club, whereas a lot of people on Instagram would just like scroll through, I like that person's quote, okay, I'll follow, without really any personal connection. So, um, but yeah, email is definitely harder because you're giving that information away.

Josh: Um, I like to— well, a podcast, one download of a podcast equals how many, uh, YouTube views do you think?

Tommy: In terms of like, I think we've talked about that before, it's like 100 Well, yeah, because there's, there's so much like the barrier to entry for a podcast is so much higher. And it's even like that with the email and the social stuff. You were playing around with doing sort of social advertising and things like that.

Lucy: Yeah.

Tommy: What did, what did you work out from spending money versus organic with, with Instagram?

Lucy: Um, so all the ads that I did was were feeding into the newsletter. I don't do them anymore. But the drop-off rate of unsubscribes was definitely connected to the people that signed up through an ad compared to who just organically signed up.

Tommy: Interesting.

Lucy: Um, and so that's why I stopped it, because there's no point in paying for a sign-up, but really their lifetime value is like one week and then they fall away.

Tommy: So are they— is it— does Instagram make it easy for them to sign up through their platform?

Lucy: Yeah, you just swipe up on the storey and you can— it's the form's already there so you can just fill out your details.

Tommy: Okay, sure. Yeah, that is interesting.

Lucy: So there's no— there's no like— they haven't found you, they haven't connected with you, there's no emotional attachment. It's literally just they're swiping on story, which is—

Josh: it accidentally happened or no? No, they have to put in some details.

Lucy: Yeah, but because they've never had any, um, any experience with the brand before, that's the first time that it's happened.

Tommy: So what are they buying at that point? Like, what is it? What are you— what were you selling within the ad to get them? I was I was saying, um, free doughnut with everything.

Josh: Yeah, yeah, might be behind the sign. Never know.

Lucy: Um, I was saying a weekly newsletter for women on, on recommendations of what to read, browse, and listen to in mindfulness and wellness. That was essentially what it was.

Tommy: Yeah. And, um, monetization, has it always been something that's been on the cards? Um, I guess if you have a business coach, you'd want to, you'd want to have some form of—

Lucy: Yeah, it's always been long-term though. Um, I never got into this for quick win or the money. It was for the community and for connecting with people. So yes, at some stage that will definitely be a key factor, but for now, yeah, my newsletter— I don't want to, um, hurt the integrity of the brand by just any product or anything.

Tommy: And so how do you— because you've even had some brand integrations— what, what was the learning with doing that type of thing?

Lucy: Um, the learning was—

Tommy: what was the brand again? Who were you working with?

Lucy: Sorry, um, we worked with Shelby's, which is, um, like chocolate-covered almonds and snacks.

Tommy: Yeah, they're great.

Lucy: Um, yeah, so very on brand in terms of like everyone was really like loving the product and, um, like, had you used it before? And a lot of my audience was DMing me like, yes, I love these, and that sort of thing. Um, but I think that for that sort of activity, when it's a fast-moving consumer good, then it's a little bit different compared to like driving online sales. And so, um, yeah, it was in line with the brand. I think it's also what the brand wants. So like, is it conversions? Is it brand awareness? Is it, um, creating connections through other brands for your network?

Tommy: Like So was it a branding play for them, or what?

Lucy: Yeah, yeah, it was a branding play. Um, yeah, so I'm definitely open to things like that, but I'm very aware as, as well because I'm from marketing. I've had a few brands come to me and be like, oh yeah, we'll pay you if you get this many sales.

Tommy: Yeah, sure.

Lucy: It's just not—

Josh: but if you attempt it and you don't, we won't get paid.

Lucy: Yeah.

Josh: Ouch.

Tommy: I guess, I mean, performance, yeah, that comes under that sort of performance marketing stuff, which really requires— it's a scale game, right? Like, you need a much bigger audience. Doesn't necessarily have to have the brand equity or the quality of person. But if you're building a quality community, then you can't just look at classic sort of CPM rates and things like that to determine your cost.

Josh: What do you think the rah-rah of marketing was of 2019? There's always like things that I think people obsess over in those kind of areas.

Lucy: The hype.

Josh: The hype.

Tommy: Where do you think the hype was?

Lucy: TikTok.

Tommy: Yeah.

Lucy: Thanks, Gary Vee.

Tommy: Yeah, it's homebody on TikTok.

Lucy: No, no, no, no, no.

Tommy: You do a lot of cat content though.

Lucy: But I should.

Tommy: Yeah, that actually could be.

Josh: Yeah, cat TikTok.

Lucy: Yeah, yeah.

Josh: Oh, actually there is a— I was watching a cat. You know those cats that look like tigers? I think they're Bengal.

Lucy: Tiger.

Josh: This one, it eats like chicken legs. And I spent, I spent half an hour just like watching this thing, and it looks like a— it's so bizarre because it looks like a tiger.

Tommy: I saw it pass on Twitter, and the own— it only followed one account, and the account was called, uh, Red Laser Pointer, which I thought was quite— you get it? Like, because like, yeah, it's quite— do you have a laser at home?

Lucy: I used to have one from Kmart that was like a tower, and it would move around.

Josh: For the cat?

Lucy: Yeah, yeah.

Josh: I thought you were just saying he just had a laser pointer.

Tommy: No, no, no.

Lucy: Just like pointing at people.

Josh: They actually do that? They're that dumb?

Lucy: Yeah.

Tommy: No, it's really, it's a lot of fun.

Lucy: Yeah, it's great.

Josh: Until you get it in its eye.

Tommy: What do you think it is about introverts and cats? I guess it's because, um, you're at home, cat's sort of at home. I guess they're also, cats are pretty independent. I guess you could be an introvert with the dog.

Josh: But cats, maybe cats look after themselves, or they keep to themselves, or they're keeping their feelings to themselves.

Lucy: They are also introverts, so you both like respect each other's space.

Josh: Is that a thing? Is that really like introverts do like cats? Is that—

Tommy: I don't know, I just feel like if you think about like internet culture, can you look at that? It makes sense.

Josh: Introverts and cats.

Lucy: I have a dog, but she's an athlete, so yeah, she's a what? That's why.

Josh: Okay, okay. Yeah, got it.

Tommy: Well, yeah, it means you're not having like sort of day-to-day.

Lucy: No, I used to.

Tommy: With the dog. So with the monetization bringing 2020, you're providing sort of like a membership offering. How did you come up with that and what were the considerations?

Lucy: So my considerations were, yeah, basically monetizing what could I do going forward. So there are two things, either I offer something myself or I rely on brands. And I really wanted to do something, So my overall goal was how can I keep on building this community, um, as the hierarchy, as the top hierarchy.

Tommy: And so that community, how would you describe it in the current form? There's the book, there was a book club, there's a newsletter.

Lucy: Yeah, so I had a blog, a newsletter, a book club, and then the social channels involved in that. Um, so I've moved book club to the membership, um, so you can actually discuss together in a private environment and I'm going to do a monthly call, so video call. So I'm going to hop on and I'm going to provide some questions so we can all kind of chat about it, um, and just kind of like a safe space. I had lots of people DMing me and emailing me, but it was all fragmented and I wanted everyone to come together. And so this was a way that I could do it, um, but also help to grow the brand and the future of it by charging instead of providing a heap of free content that I currently am.

Tommy: I think, yeah.

Josh: What are you scared of when you decide to charge? Because I think most people would be— that put out free stuff are scared to then put a dollar figure to it.

Tommy: Yeah.

Lucy: I think, um, I knew doing it that this would be probably a harder transition than normal because they are conditioned to receive everything for free. And so, um, my goals are not short-term. It's not just short-term gain, it's long-term. So how can I slowly transition these people, um, and creating big enough value that they'll want to sign up? And so I think it's just, yes, really showing them and the social proof of other people joining, seeing what we're going to be doing, and then you're wanting to sign up.

Josh: Yeah, I mean, because I think I've seen some people do it where I could— I've thought about the toughness on in starting to charge at seeing 2 people people on a, on a, um, on a live, like a closed live.

Tommy: Yeah.

Josh: When it's like at the start that, I mean, that is the reality of anything we do. We wish we could have 1,000 instant lives behind a paywall. It's like, but the reality is you've got to start somewhere.

Tommy: Yeah. You start with only like a couple of people in the community. Yeah. How do you create that? So if you've got like, if you're starting very, very small, have you, have you considered what the book club looks like at a, at a very small level? So say like 10 people versus 30 people versus 50 people and how that changes the dynamic.

Lucy: Yeah, I've definitely thought about it. And so I was trying to toss up between using even Facebook groups because I'm not a huge fan of Facebook personally, but I think that because you're on TikTok with my cats, um but in order to be able to scale it, there needs to be some sort of forum. And so, um, that was definitely a consideration. And I would— I will be moving into Facebook private group. Um, but yeah, at the moment, having a small amount, I'm thinking like a Zoom call where everyone can come together as like the webinar and, um, yeah, be able to chat and things like that. And if they want to hop on, then I can invite them.

Josh: But isn't it interesting though, because there's still a lot of people on Facebook And so it's like maybe the, the thing you don't use is where maybe you could—

Tommy: Facebook. That's why I almost think, I think about like, would I potentially go— because I've got a Facebook account that literally just has the Daily Talk Show attached to it. I wonder whether I'll get to a point where it's like I'm only using Facebook for its smaller communities, and so I'm connected with all of that. Like, I remember 3 years ago Actually, it would be good for us to sign back up to, but I was on like a production company's Facebook community. Yeah, like that's global. And so there was like, I met like even someone that I was speaking to on there, like I met in San Diego and stuff like that.

Josh: It's like I'm attached to a few of them. I mean, they only really work if you start being, if you're active in them. But I do see people being active in these communities. But then that's— it's a real play. It's like Cam Watts. Shout out to Cam. Yeah, he's, um, he gets around Melbourne filmmakers. He's just sliding in constantly. But I see him interacting, then I see him at events with people like Melbourne Filmmakers.

Tommy: I used to have that Facebook group, and then I think when I deleted my account, the username and all that, so someone's obviously got it up.

Josh: There is, there is, yeah, some filmmaker. Maybe, maybe this—

Tommy: but I loved, um, Bree was saying the other day, she was like, ah, my mum's the, uh, You know, like if top commenter on certain things, it was like one reality show and it's like, you know, Helen, top commenter. It's like, oh, today was the Today Show.

Josh: It's like, there's, um, the, like, the, the ones that are, like, this is interesting, the people who start some of these big ones that pop, they never were thinking, I'm gonna create something of this, like the, the Bayside Buy Swap and Sell. Oh yeah, ginormous. Fucking ridiculous. And they all get a bit power hungry. Yeah, yeah, you know, they're just like the rule, you know, the admin moderators, the moderator rules. It's hilarious, like they're pulling down things at a drop of a hat. Um, the Bondi, the West, uh, Eastern Suburbs in Sydney one was mint because it's all great stuff. Was because all the rich people from the, you know, Eastern Suburbs. Yeah, selling shit. Yeah, real estate.

Tommy: Um, no, I remember back in like 20 2011, there was a, um, there was a Facebook group, uh, which is pretty, um, it sounds pretty dumb now. It was, uh, I'm Awesome Because I Live in Australia. There was a Facebook group and it had a quarter of a million likes. And this was a time where you, when you did a post, it appeared everywhere. I remember, like, I knew the guy that had it and he put my year 12 film up and I had like my video got like 12,000 views or whatever because of that. And then we had, even when we were doing, I was doing the social media for Charlie and Boots, which is a Shane Jacobson, Paul Hogan film. I got Shane to do a personal message specifically for that Facebook community.

Josh: Smart. Isn't it funny how people used to do shit like that? Imagine asking Shane.

Tommy: Yeah. Now you just do this.

Josh: I mean, can you just quickly post the Daily Talk Show? Just, it was funny, like what the currency of it then, like not everyone had worked it out. Yeah. So can you Can you bring up the biggest community on Facebook in Australia? See what it is now. But yeah, I remember asking people to share things.

Lucy: Yeah.

Josh: And it wasn't as offensive as it is now.

Tommy: Yeah.

Lucy: Yeah.

Tommy: I think people know what it's worth. Even think about how hard it is to get a follow on Instagram now.

Josh: Amen.

Tommy: It's like, it's real. It takes a lot. Like, it's— I think that we're all— we all at the start, we were just like, we thought, oh, we'll just follow. Like, what's the harm in following? And then I think that we realise that we become what we follow. And so then we've like gone the other way now where it's like you have to tick 10 boxes before they get a follow. And like, if it's a brand, it needs to be like— I think that I definitely place— actually, probably not that much, but definitely place a little bit of identity on like, oh, what am I— felt like if I'll go through and be like, is that really me now? Like, do I, do I care about cheese?

Lucy: The follower count versus the following count.

Tommy: Yeah, it was funny. I sort of— I do. I like to have it smaller. But it was Seth Godin tells a storey about his friend saying how she was getting worried because her numbers were about to, like, be parity and she was freaking out about it. And so he paid $170 and got 10,000 followers for her for her birthday. And she didn't realize. Yeah. And so Seth's there and she's there and ding, ding, like she's getting all these like notifications. And he was like, it made her so happy. That sounds so not sad. Naughty little dog.

Josh: How do you get a follower these days, do you think, Lucy?

Lucy: Oh, um, I think you have to obviously have good grid content on your page.

Tommy: Um, what do you think that means, that grid life?

Lucy: That grid? Yeah.

Tommy: Um, so the new grid girls, you know, just on the Just on the Instagram.

Lucy: Skrrt girls, I don't know what they are. I'm not that cool anymore.

Josh: They're also called that, what are they? The first time I've ever heard it, Bree said it on your, a tile.

Tommy: Oh yeah, a tile.

Josh: As soon as I heard it, I was like, what's that?

Tommy: It's a brand thing. Like, we're getting an Insta storey and we've paid extra and we're getting the tile as well.

Josh: I'd never heard it, but then I started to hear it and seeing it written in stuff.

Lucy: Yeah, I think it's showing up consistently. These days, what's your content? Like, what are you bringing? Are you entertaining? You inspiring? Are you educating? Um, and just being active. Stories every day.

Tommy: What about commenting back? Like, I always think about that, 97. Are we commenting back to everyone? Check engagement.

Josh: Yeah, it actually wasn't a question, mate.

Tommy: It was more—

Lucy: this is your review.

Tommy: Yeah, it's a 360 review. Um, yeah, what's your thought? Like, are you pedantic about commenting back or anything like that.

Lucy: I do comment back, but, um, I think that's just from a strategic algorithm point of view.

Tommy: Yeah. Um, and also I was reading an article that Christian Hull was writing on LinkedIn, and he was like, you know, 5 things brands should look at before working with an influencer. And one of them was, are they engaging with their audience? Because it's a good indication of how much buy-in or the quality of the audience if if the daily talk show has just a bunch of people writing and it's all this sort of random people but we're not engaging, potentially that leads to, uh, you know, a less quality product.

Josh: I mean, I mean, I've also got 10 comments and written back 10 times so it looked like it said 20 comments. Yeah, we've all done that, let's be honest.

Lucy: But I feel like, yeah, if I'm trying to create a community and people are talking to me and I'm not answering, then like, what the fuck What the fuck am I doing? Yeah.

Josh: I mean, you need to have a certain offering to create the dialogue. I think like to— there's some kind of brands that like you look at the Shameless thing, the conversation it's created, even what you're doing, it's like a, the thing you put out is something to then sort of flow on.

Tommy: Well, Seth Godin's People Like Us do things like this. And so Homebody Club, like it's, in the name, people understand. They can, like, there is the— what I take from it is it's, uh, the person helping people on their personal journey. And so whether that's, you know, like with a self-development angle but also like spiritual stuff, but just like it is that hybrid book club and all that sort of thing.

Josh: And maybe this year we have a phone number. It's like a The Daily Talk Show phone. No, but they can call us.

Tommy: Actually, I saw it.

Josh: We just have little convos.

Tommy: Did you say Joshua Fields? Did you see the Minimalists have started doing that. I've got Joshua Fields Millburn has a, they've got a text number. A text number, okay. That you can text.

Lucy: People have hotlines and things like that for their bodies.

Tommy: Yeah, it would be good to get something like that.

Josh: Well, think about sometimes you can't be bothered. Sometimes you just wanna have a few convos. I reckon I could just reel off 5, mate, got 1 minute, what's up?

Tommy: Yeah.

Josh: How you going? Yeah, good. You cat? If you watch the TikToks.

Tommy: Yeah, there's something, there's something in that. Yeah, what do you think, listening to the Daily Talk Show, or like putting your marketing hat on, what would be one thing that you think we could do in 2020 to be more engaged or sort of encourage community?

Lucy: You could do more in real life stuff, like obviously you did the 500 episode event.

Josh: And what do you think about that?

Lucy: It was fun. Yeah, what's, uh, I mean, you don't need to have such extravagant things. You could just meet up and hang out with people.

Josh: Yeah, this is where we take it though, because of that like a tattoo.

Tommy: Well, yeah, it started like that way. Like, it started like, oh, let's keep it low-key. And then the day before, I'm like, we need lights.

Josh: But it— I think it looked great. Did it look great? Did it?

Lucy: Yeah, no, it looked great. It was fun.

Tommy: And so, yeah, what is the smaller— like, is it maybe just less Nando's? Yeah, like a smaller—

Josh: so potentially, or add a Nando's.

Tommy: Yes, smaller venues maybe. I think the other thing too was It's like, how do you create? So I've been with Seth coming to Melbourne. I've been like going real deep into, I was emailing him as well on the weekend. He's fucking getting back to me.

Josh: Getting back to you?

Tommy: How's he been? Yeah, he's great. Is he good? I was asking him actually about people introducing themselves on the podcast. I said, Seth, because he's very into like status and things like that. There's the book that Jason Fox talked about the other day on our show. It's called Impro, and it's all about how status is used in theatre as a, like, from an acting point of view. So how, uh, and so anyway, Seth uses that a lot in This Is Marketing. And so what I was asking him was, when a guest comes on a podcast and the host says, you know, for the 5 people who don't know anything about you, or 5 people who have been under a rock, can you describe who Lucy Green is?

Lucy: Stroking the ego.

Tommy: Yeah, but it is There is something— there is also something a bit low status about asking, like getting— having to explain yourself of who you are. And so my question to Seth was, I'm like, do you think it's low status and do you not like it? And he was like, oh look, it's a privilege when I get the chance to do it because I don't get to do it that much.

Josh: You did his one when we interviewed him. I think it was a great— he did a really great intro.

Tommy: 18 best-selling books, you know, like being able to do that sort of stuff.

Lucy: Build him up.

Tommy: Yeah. So yeah, it is, it is interesting. But, um, why was I bringing that up?

Lucy: I mean, you didn't put that much effort into my intro, so it's a little hurtful.

Tommy: I wanted to get straight into the homebody stuff.

Josh: So we're talking about, um, the 500.

Tommy: Yeah, so lo-fi.

Lucy: Yeah, lo-fi.

Tommy: Yeah, the, the smaller layer. I think, um, what is one of the—

Josh: what, so what does that look like? What is something lo-fi?

Tommy: Um, lower barrier to entry.

Lucy: Oh, even just like a dinner or a cafe or a picnic or anything in real life, or here. Yeah, you could have people here.

Josh: I did think about a barbecue. Oh yeah, for the office. So we've got a balcony here and creating that real hub to be able to come and have a barbie.

Lucy: Even just, um, so you guys obviously show up consistently on the podcast, but even just creating something on like Instagram Lives and stuff that is consistent. So you like a schedule that you always show up so they know when to expect it.

Josh: I love it.

Tommy: I like the idea. Oh no, was that— did you cough that out?

Josh: No, I coughed and then I drank water and now it's all over me.

Tommy: But yeah, what's that? I think it could be good to do. I wonder maybe Fitzroy Gardens. It's one of the— that was 3D Dill's favourite garden. It sounds like he's fucking dead. Dill is still with us. It was his favourite garden.

Josh: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. But so I even think the office and this year, 2020, is like, how can we utilise our space Because what's easy to do is, I mean, get complacent. It's probably not the right thing, but you think about what you could have if you had an office, and then you get the office and then you're like, if we had a better office.

Lucy: You have a space.

Josh: You look forward. And so there's so many things.

Tommy: I want bleachers, not in this space, you know, like seating. So future.

Lucy: I don't know where we're going.

Tommy: So this small space, I'm like, this office, it's great. I feel very lucky.

Josh: See, this is the exact example of what I'm saying.

Tommy: However, I think that a bigger space where, yeah, we could have those bleachers and things like that so we could actually have— I want one day. But no, I think there is definitely something in the minimum viable stuff. I like the idea of going to a picnic or a park or whatever. I feel like there's easy ways that we can, but On that, the, um, the, the, the tension— trying to create tension within, um, like community within, say, like, um, money-wise, right? Like, you actually, uh— Seth was talking about— this is what I wanted to talk about. Seth was mentioning how he would give the Alt MBA, uh, for free to people who were, um, in not-for-profits.

Josh: Is this an email to you or just—

Tommy: this was just in general. And the— what was happening was there would be a huge drop-off rate of people who would get access to any of your stuff for free. And so what he was talking about is you need tension when you are pulling back a, um, or maybe it was resistance, I think it was tension, pulling back a slingshot. You need the tension for it to work, to catapult it, creating that value. And so I think part of it though, part of the way that you create tension is charging for stuff. And so we didn't do that when we had our EP500, but what would that have looked like? We had someone book 6 tickets and then not show up because it was free.

Josh: Your mate?

Tommy: Yeah. What, what would it look like? What would it look like if you charged a small fee, even if it was $20?

Josh: Well, I think it's the— yeah, the value. Like you said, you can— and especially if I mean, all these things are like, uh, coping mechanisms. You set it for free because you don't know if we can actually pull it off, and then we get to 80 people in this room and it's like, holy shit, imagine if we charged. And then you can go, you could go, I'll charge a little amount and we'll put all of that money into the event. So it actually, it's like, that's the coping mechanism at that point. Do you think for you having a cutoff was a, like, a small amount was like almost not wanting to sort of— I know you said it was like keep it small, but is it also inside? Because I know this, all this stuff is like, like a fear of failure, fear of it not working. Yeah, definitely what I felt.

Lucy: Yeah, totally. And I remember launching it for the first time and being like, people could just not show up. And then so I got two of my best friends to sign up and I was like, well, if nobody comes, we're going to have brunch.

Josh: It's just a highly organised catch-up through a sign-up form. I love that.

Lucy: It's a calendar invite.

Josh: And so then when you saw some randos.

Lucy: Yeah, I was like, oh, this is actually real and I'm actually going to have to do this and turn up and it's going to be a thing.

Josh: I mean, but where else is there to start with any of these things? The podcast, like starting a podcast and having people listen and then a year later, how many, you know, it's really cool. I think that's the, that is the reward in the creative endeavors. And the online stuff's amazing.

Tommy: Yeah, yeah, it's—

Josh: I think it's old.

Tommy: And the online stuff is— yeah, you can do it from your house. It's bloody great. Um, so if people want to sign up, when's the first newsletter of the year coming out? Have you got a date on it? Oh, so 97 can work it out. Is it like the second Thursday or some shit?

Lucy: Well, I'm having a hiatus for 2 weeks, so next Thursday and the Thursday after. Yeah, so, oh, so what it is So two, two things.

Tommy: It's coming in because this, this episode's coming out in January 2nd. So it should be out.

Lucy: I mean, I'll still have the blog and membership.

Tommy: People look at old newsletter. I feel I love the newsletter. I feel like blogs, it's still that thing of like you've got to actively go there. You got to have it on your like bookmarks to be able to go to it. The newsletter is like a great reminder of what's happening. How do people sign up for the newsletter?

Lucy: Through Instagram, just link in bio or pop up on my website.

Tommy: Is it homebodyclub.com?

Lucy: Yeah. Great.

Josh: Good to know.

Lucy: Lovely.

Tommy: Yeah. Have you got homebody.club?

Josh: You don't need to. Oh yeah, you could do that. It's probably really expensive.

Tommy: Sorry.

Josh: No, well, the .club is expensive.

Tommy: And also once you got the .com, someone tries to start something with the .club, good on them. Yeah, whatever.

Josh: Kill it.

Tommy: Oh, did you actually, you tried the whole trademark thing?

Lucy: Yeah.

Tommy: Where is it at?

Lucy: Um, so it was— I'm not gonna do— I'm not gonna say it properly, but basically it was approved and now there's like a 3-month period where it's advertised and people can fight it or challenge.

Josh: Yeah, yeah, the challenge.

Lucy: So that is over in January. Great.

Josh: Hopefully.

Tommy: What was the learning through all, all of that? Was it— were you doing the name or were you doing the, the logo?

Lucy: Um, I did the name because the logo is just the name anyway. Yeah, sure. So yeah, I just did the name and it worked.

Tommy: Oh great.

Josh: Should we give it another attempt for—

Tommy: Yeah.

Josh: Well, yeah.

Tommy: So what I found out from— because the Daily Talk Show, we got advised that it wouldn't go through because it's too generic.

Lucy: Yeah.

Tommy: But then Justine from Thank U slid into our DMs and said, do it from an image level. So Thank U, like, basically trademarked the logo.

Lucy: Yes.

Tommy: And that's still— but that's still essentially the words just written out. And so we could, we could do—

Josh: we have to get— is that .com?

Tommy: Is it because we've got the Daily Talk Show?

Josh: We can put it without the .com.

Tommy: I'm not sure. I like the .com. The .com is good in a logo because everyone always knows where to go. But I feel like in 10 years' time it will be like what happened with like Fox FM and all of that 5 years ago where they all dropped the FM. I did that like Hit Network. No, yeah, they went to the Fox and most of them don't give the what's the numbers called? The frequency. The frequency 1019. Let's get rid of that because they're all, you know, all about that I heart and stuff. Anyway, Lucy, good luck for 2020. We would love to have you back on later in the year.

Lucy: Sure.

Tommy: Maybe we can do some of the stuff that you're pushing on your workshops and all that stuff. Can you bring your cat too, please?

Lucy: I have two cats.

Tommy: What's the cat's name?

Lucy: Frank and Scout.

Tommy: Okay, great. Which one do you like more?

Lucy: Scout.

Josh: Really does have a favourite.

Tommy: Was it Frank came later?

Lucy: No, Frank's the first one you've met here.

Tommy: Okay, yeah, sure. Scout. Okay, so Scout's my big fatty. Yeah, sure.

Lucy: He has anger issues.

Josh: Really?

Lucy: Yeah, I have scars.

Tommy: That's full on. Yeah, my cat's so much nicer.

Josh: Oh, geez. I mean, Amy's rabbit bit her nipple.

Tommy: Really? Like a scar forever type of thing?

Josh: She's got it like when I— this is when I first met her. I've got— she got a scratch and a bite. Little prick. Don't ever touch my rabbit.

Tommy: That's what she told you.

Lucy: Yeah, that's the story.

Tommy: Yeah, it was the rabbit.

Josh: Yeah, that thing used to hiss.

Tommy: What happened to it? No, it was a rabbit, not a rat.

Josh: No, no, he's not killed it. Nah, we moved to Melbourne, so we left it.

Tommy: What happened to it?

Josh: We left it at the house where the housemates were, and then I think they sold it.

Lucy: So there was somebody there. Sold.

Josh: Yeah, yeah, yeah. But it got— it used to live in the backyard and started digging and Because it became a free-range rabbit.

Tommy: Anyway, that's The Daily Talk Show. Hi@thedailytalkshow.com is the email address. Homebodyclub.com, definitely sign up to the newsletter because I really enjoy that every week. Otherwise, see you tomorrow, guys.

Josh: See you guys.

Lucy: Bye.