Ryan Nicodemus On Happiness & Expectations

Ryan: The Daily Talk Show.

Tommy: It's The Daily Talk Show. We're in Los Angeles.

Ryan: Yeah, man, what's up, guys?

Tommy: Ryan Nicodemus.

Ryan: So I've never listened to your show. What's your show usually about?

Tommy: Oh, look, we talk about a lot of things. Uh, it's a mixed bag. It's a bit of banter, a bit of self-development, a bit of minimalism, because we were in this studio only last year.

Ryan: Awesome. Yeah, with, uh, with Josh Milburn. Yeah, my other half. So for those who don't know, my name is Ryan Nicodemus. I'm one half of The Minimalists. Me and my best friend of like 25 years. We've been friends since we were fat little 5th graders.

Josh: Fat little 5th graders.

Ryan: We have a podcast, blog, books. Uh, just look up The Minimalists and you'll find all that stuff.

Tommy: That's cool.

Ryan: I see you guys wore the uniform.

Tommy: Thanks for wearing the uniform.

Ryan: I appreciate it.

Josh: There was a security guard downstairs and he, um... Yeah.

Ryan: He's like, "I know who you're here for." Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Tommy: "Shoes off. Only thongs." Oh, you guys don't call them thongs?

Ryan: Loincloths.

Tommy: Sandal— loincloths. Oh, wait, you're talking about the shoe/feet thing.

Ryan: Yeah, no, thongs are something completely different.

Josh: What are they that you have on?

Ryan: These are Jesus sandals.

Tommy: They—

Josh: yep, I was gonna say that.

Ryan: No, these are— they're called Xero Shoes. It's spelled X-E-R-O, and they're like barefoot. I tried to hold them up for the camera, but I mean, you need to be really flexible.

Josh: I saw, um, you don't post a great deal on social media.

Ryan: No.

Josh: But you did do one of you in a headstand, and you mentioned that you broke your back.

Ryan: Yeah, I broke my back. So, um, yeah, man, so snowboarding, uh, last January. Yeah. So like just about a year ago and ran into a tree. I broke, uh, on this side, on my left side, I broke 5 transverse processes, every single transverse process on my lumbar. So the transverse processes are those, they're the 2 little bones that stick out from the vertebrae. So I snapped them.

Tommy: Yeah.

Ryan: Well, it is kind of like breaking ribs. So it's funny because every doctor I saw, they're like, if you had to choose how to break your back, this is the way you would want to break your back.

Josh: Yeah.

Ryan: Right. So, uh, as you can tell, like I'm back at it.

Josh: And so no issue? No, no, I'm—

Ryan: no, I mean, I'm still a little numb back there, um, but I've been taking good care of myself with like massage therapy and chiropractor. Uh, we were just talking before we started recording this, like how important a chiropractor— to have a good chiropractor in your life, like that is— that's one aspect to like living a healthful life, man, like staying in alignment, uh, for sure.

Josh: What was the, um, perspective gained from having an injury like that?

Ryan: Uh I'm not 25 anymore. I'm 30. I just turned 38.

Josh: Trees don't move.

Tommy: Well, yeah, trees don't move. That's a good one.

Ryan: I'll tell you what's really crazy though, is like when I, when I hit the tree, I heard snap, snap, snap, snap, snap. And I hit the ground and I couldn't feel below my waist. And instantly I was like, oh no, like my, my life is like going to be very different moving here forward. But what's crazy though is that So in that instant, and it really was just an instant because I started to like move my feet to try and move 'em and I could hear them moving. I just couldn't feel 'em. I'm like, oh, that's a good sign. So like, I'm still gonna be able to move my feet. I just can't feel 'em right now. But in that instant where I, I did think that like I might have been paralyzed, like if you were to tell me earlier in the day, like, hey, Ryan, or you, if you were to ask me like, hey Ryan, uh, if you would be paralyzed, like how would you feel? I'd be like, I don't know. I might, I don't know. I might just like kill myself. I'd just be depressed. I, I don't know. Like, you know, I'd have this, But in the moment, it wasn't that bad.

Tommy: That's good.

Ryan: In the moment, I was just like, "Oh." Like, "Yeah, I really screwed up my life." Yeah. "It's gonna be different." But I'll still be all right.

Tommy: It'll give you a storey to talk about.

Ryan: Yeah.

Tommy: You could do a few episodes on it on the podcast.

Ryan: I think I certainly have had, um— I definitely talked about it on the podcast at a certain point. But it's funny. Actually, I was telling someone that storey yesterday. They told me the same exact thing. They're like, "You should record that." I'm like, "I did record that." People feel sorry.

Tommy: Patreon money goes up. Perfect. Win-win.

Ryan: So the picture you're talking about, I was on a, um, on a paddleboard. Yeah, doing a headstand. Yeah. So yeah, stand-up paddleboard. We were over down in Redondo Beach. If you guys have been to Redondo Beach, yeah, beautiful.

Josh: Yeah, that was lovely.

Tommy: Yeah.

Ryan: So we were down there and, um, it does feel good to be able to like do— I can do everything I can, knock on wood, that I have before I broke my back. Uh, like workouts are fine. It's still really tight back there. Like I still have to get get a lot of stuff worked out, but I'm really lucky. And yeah, I'm pretty much invincible now. If anything, I realise I'm not invincible.

Tommy: We're trying to do firsts in Los Angeles, so things we've never done before. Oh, sweet. Uh, and we went to MedMen, uh, the other night.

Ryan: Oh, nice.

Josh: You should know that in Australia it's illegal.

Ryan: Oh yeah, right, right. Did you guys— did you guys, um, how was it? Did you get like too paranoid?

Tommy: No, we haven't. So we haven't— we haven't gotten anything, but we were talking about on the podcast and we decided that we would do it for the first time.

Ryan: Yeah.

Tommy: Do you have experience that you can give in regards to gummies?

Ryan: First time, here's what I say about edibles, man.

Tommy: Okay.

Ryan: And here's what I told Milburn.

Tommy: Okay.

Ryan: Because I was like, because he, because, uh, he, um, was looking at it medicinally, and I gave him like a really strong edible. Yeah. And I was like, strong. It was, it was like, uh, how many milligrams? 200 milligrammes for this edible that was like maybe, you know, like an inch by inch.

Tommy: Yeah. Square. That was the strongest that we could see online.

Ryan: Yeah. So I mean, it was, it's the strongest you can get. Yeah.

Tommy: Were you trying to kill him? No, no, no.

Ryan: You can't really die from eating too much.

Josh: The madman's saying is no one's died from marijuana, right?

Ryan: No one's ever— yeah, no one's ever died from whatever.

Tommy: It's just the shit.

Ryan: Yeah, so I was telling Josh, I'm like, here's this. I'm like, it's really strong. If you like— if you— because he's like, you know, I like, um, I've tried, you know, uh, uh, 30 milligrammes before and it didn't really do anything. I said, okay, well, if you do a corner, that's 50 milligrams. I'm like, so start with 50 milligrammes and then, you know, go from there. And, uh, I said, but I just want to let you know You might eat too much and think you're going to die. I was like, but you're not going to die. And this is very important that when you think to yourself, I might die from this, you're not going to die. So that's my biggest piece of advice. Long storey short, he ate the 50 and like, he's got a, I should let him tell his story. I wish he was here to tell it. Uh, he, uh, basically had a really hard time, like forgot how to use the bathroom. Um, was like, like shit everywhere. Yeah, dude.

Tommy: Right.

Ryan: It was like, he was like, he's like on the wall. He's got this great storey about how he like, uh, got up from bed because he had to pee, but he had to like crawl to the toilet. And he eventually got there and he stood up, and it took, you know, that was its own journey, crawling to the toilet. And then like, as he's standing there, he's like, and then I forgot how to pee. And then it was— and then like eventually, you know, he got back to bed and he was like, you know, I was laying there and I— he goes, he wasn't worried about dying, he was worried about being scared that he was going to die.

Josh: And so for a couple of blokes who haven't ever done it.

Ryan: Yeah, I mean, have fun. Um, and, uh, should we have food with this? Yeah, yeah, dude. I mean, I guess you get the munchies, but you know, my biggest advice is, is like, no one's ever died from an overdose. And if you feel like you're gonna die, you just have to remind yourself like you're not going to.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: How, how has the laws changed culture in LA in regards to—

Ryan: not too much, man. I mean, people are more laid back. I don't know, dude. I really don't— I really don't use a tonne of that, dude. I, uh, I think when I first got here it was like a novelty aspect.

Tommy: Sure.

Ryan: But like, now that I've been here 2 years, I'm like, I hardly ever like use marijuana at all, dude.

Tommy: So alcohol, marijuana, you, you talk openly about like, was it a pill issue that you had?

Ryan: Yeah, yeah, yeah, dude. Yeah, well, I mean, Dayton, Ohio is the overdose capital of the world. I mean, they hand out opiates. They used to. I mean, the laws have gotten better, but 10 years ago they would hand out opiates like, oh, you've got a headache, here are some opiates. So yeah, long storey short, like, I broke my thumb and, um, I was given a copious amount of opiates. And, uh, that's kind of what started me down this path of, um, yeah, dude, just a really dark path of like taking a pill to make myself feel like I had won the lottery. It's like you just be sitting on your couch and like all your worries.

Josh: Yeah, all your worries.

Ryan: Yeah. And like everything's falling apart, but you're like, oh, I feel great. But, um, I got to— cool. It's It's crazy, 'cause like when you start that road, um, eventually the pills stop working. You always have to find something stronger.

Tommy: Is it like if you've— if taking it is like winning the lottery, is coming down off it like losing all your money?

Ryan: Oh yeah, it's like— yeah, that's a great way of looking at it. Yeah, absolutely, man. Um, but it got to a point for me where I was like, oh, uh, like heroin was the next step. And I really— I saw like, you know, my life bifurcating one or two ways. And I was like, oh, I was like, I need to go get some help. So I went and got help and got off of it. And I haven't touched that stuff in years and years and years. But, and we always— but yeah, it was— I would never— like, the, the withdrawal, the coming down from it, um, that I wouldn't— I would not wish that on my worst enemy. Like, it is the worst thing I've ever had to go through in my life.

Josh: And who around you— is, is Josh there? Is, you know—

Ryan: yeah, Josh was there. I didn't— I hid it really well. And no one could ever tell.

Josh: Because you were happy from while you were on the—

Ryan: Yeah, yeah. Well, it's funny because, yeah, I mean, yeah, so, so yeah, I could hide it really well. And it wasn't until I really found myself like really needing help is when I was like, Josh, I got a problem, dude. I need help. And he was totally there for me. And it was very, yeah, very supportive. And it was a long road, but totally worth the battle. But it is like, God, dude, that again, I would not wish that on my worst enemy. It's the worst feeling in the world.

Josh: When you have an accident like breaking your back, pretty serious, what's the approach there? 'Cause—

Ryan: Yeah, so I did get pain pills for that, but the thing is, is like, I didn't abuse them.

Josh: OK.

Ryan: It's— the problem is when you— if you take them as prescribed, it's not typic— I mean, in my experience, and, um, there's certainly exceptions to the rule, but if you take them as prescribed, you know, 1 pill every 6 to 8 hours, it actually helps with pain.

Josh: Mm.

Ryan: If you take, you know, I was taking like 10 at once. To get that, to try and get that, you know, that, that feeling. And that is where you get hooked, is when you're chasing that feeling. So, um, yeah, like after I broke my back, um, I got prescription pain pills, but I took them as prescribed.

Tommy: Um, was there a fear there? Oh yeah, yeah.

Ryan: I actually, we have a cabinet, um, a filing cabinet that locks, and I made Mariah like lock them up and just give them to me.

Tommy: Yeah.

Ryan: Not that I ever, I just didn't even want to like be tempted.

Tommy: Yeah.

Ryan: But I did, I did really well with it, man. And actually it was kind of a lesson in like I don't know, I'd like— I feel like I've grown up a little bit, you know. I'm not saying I'm not susceptible to ever, you know, uh, because I don't want to sit here and be like, I'm over it and everything's good, because like, it's, you know, I feel it that way. But certainly, um, I'm always going to be cautious.

Tommy: Is there a conversation? Are the people around you more cautious?

Ryan: Is—

Tommy: because I guess like internally, you know how you feel and, and whether your headspace in is in the I don't want to get into this.

Ryan: Yeah.

Tommy: Was there any convincing of the doctor or with your partner Mariah?

Ryan: No, no. I think Mariah and I talked about it. I, I talked about with Josh a little bit, but, but yeah, I mean, there's certainly, uh, I guess there's certainly a little bit of hesitation, but it's, um, if anything, you just kind of take that, that hesitation and that trepidation and, and make sure you're making as good decision as you can. If I felt— I don't know, I mean, if it did become a problem, I would like to think I would just be like Hey, Mariah, flush those down the toilet or something. But it never got to that point. I never once felt like I was yearning for it. Because the other thing too is like, you got to think, I was taking pills to cover up my unhappiness. Like, it was, it was something that I used to make myself feel like I was living a different life. But like, now I'm living a good— I have nothing to hide from now, you know? I mean, I'm not perfect, and you know, obviously, like I carry a lot of, you know, a lot of baggage and whatnot, but you know, for all intents and purposes, there's nothing to run from. Yeah.

Josh: Have you worked out what makes you happy?

Ryan: Oh, I think happiness is kind of a farce, honestly. I think it's like the pursuit of happiness is kind of bullshit. I mean, it's weird. My whole life, I remember when I was a kid and I thought I was like, you know, this genius as a kid. I was like, 'cause growing up you always hear people talk, what is the point of life? What is, you know, why are we here? And I'm pondering this as a child, probably 7 years old, and all of a sudden it hit me and I'm like, oh, the point of life is to be happy. And I was so proud of myself. I'm like, oh, that's what I got to work towards. But the problem is that when you chase happiness, happiness is ephemeral. So I would, I would say that like, A, I chased happiness, um, you know, when I got my sales job and 7 promotions in less than a decade and you know, winning different awards for being the best person, you know, salesperson at my company, um, constantly chasing the bigger paycheck, the new car, the different vacation, you know. I was chasing happiness, and I'd argue that I'd get it every once in a while. I mean, I— but as soon as I had it, it was like, it like slipped out from underneath my grasp, and I like had to reach more. So like, it's this thing that I never actually was able to grab and hold on to. I don't think it ever is, man.

Tommy: So what is your North Star then?

Ryan: So my, my whole thing is really focusing on living a meaningful life. Like, that, that is, to me, that's the purpose of life. And a meaningful life, it just so happens that a beautiful byproduct of living a meaningful life is happiness. Like, you do obtain some happiness from it, but living for happiness 'Cause you could take pills that'll make you happy. You could, you know, there are a lot of drugs out there that will ostensibly, what?

Tommy: Reese's peanut butter cups. Right, yeah, exactly. Make me happy.

Ryan: Yes, yeah, yeah. You could eat all the Reese's, take all the drugs. But then, you know, there's a certain point too where like, you're eating the Reese's and you're happy, but it's like only—

Tommy: Or maybe sad.

Ryan: Yeah, right. But while you're happy, you start to, you're like, I'm happy, but I know there's guilt coming.

Tommy: Yeah, yeah.

Ryan: Yeah. No, the, uh, the, the point for me is, is to basically, you know, my short-term actions, they align with my long-term values and my beliefs. And like, that's— if you can do that, like, you're probably going to live a pretty happy life. The problem is that we start to like take these actions that are not in alignment with our values and we'll sacrifice things. Like, you know, I would, I would be like, oh, I'll work 80-hour weeks you know, just for a couple years and then I'll everything, I'll have everything figured out. Or yeah, I just, you know, my mom lives just, you know, a 15-minute drive from me. I know I only see her a few times a year. I should probably see her more, but I'll get to that, you know, 5 years. And we constantly are making these compromises to what, you know, our priorities are.

Josh: How much?

Ryan: And then that's, and then you just, you just end up making compromises the rest of your life.

Josh: Our geographical location, how much do you think it determines or adds to a level of happiness, or, you know, the opportunity to be happy?

Ryan: Yeah, of course. I mean, see, I like— I'm— Mariah and I, we're definitely more mountain folk than city folk. Uh, I love living in Los Angeles, it's freaking awesome. I mean, I wake up every morning, I'm like, I am so lucky to live in the city. But we would much rather be in Montana. 'Cause that's our preference.

Josh: So, mountain folk, because I mean, we have like country folk in Australia.

Ryan: What are they called, bogans?

Josh: Bogans. Yeah, bogans. We fit in that. We're city slickers, but also bogans. But I think, what embodies a mountain folk person?

Ryan: Oh, we just, I actually prefer, I prefer like a lessly populated area. Less conveniences, more scenery than conveniences, basically. Now, LA, you can get some pretty decent scenery, but the problem is, is like Runyon Canyon, for example.

Josh: Beautiful.

Ryan: Yeah, it's great. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You decide to go there and so did 10,000 other people.

Tommy: Exactly.

Ryan: So like, uh, and all the dogs. I'm an extrovert. Yeah, I'm an extrovert. I love hanging around people, but I like hanging around the people that I prefer to hang around. And it's not that, and it's not that, um there's not people I prefer to hang out with in LA. It's— there are, if anything, there are too many people I prefer to hang out with. I don't have enough time to hang out with all of them. But the problem is, is that there's all the people I prefer to hang out with and then again, 10,000 other people in the periphery. So, um, yeah, I think location absolutely is— it can be important. And I think people should go out of their way to, to, you know, live in an environment that they feel good in that, you know, makes them thrive. But here's the thing is like, Milburn hates Montana. Yeah, like he would, you know, someone like him, like, think about Montana, stressful. It, you know, like he would be miserable back there. So the fact that, yeah, I mean, you just got to know your preferences are and go for it. But it doesn't make living in Montana right or wrong, it's just, it's, that's what, you know, my preference is.

Tommy: You've been doing, uh, The Minimalist for how long now?

Ryan: A decade, 10 years.

Tommy: Yeah, so we're planning to do the Daily Talk Show for 10 years. Okay, so you're a great person to ask what, what what should we be expecting when taking on a long-term partnership?

Ryan: Dude, you know, it's— I was just actually gonna ask you, like, so in 10 years, like, is that— is that when you're allowed to be happy?

Tommy: No.

Josh: Well, I think it's—

Ryan: or is it over after 10 years?

Josh: Well, we don't know which, but we know that we're committing to—

Ryan: yeah, there's got to be time to commit to.

Tommy: Yeah, yeah, I, um, it's less about the finishing point and more about shooting for, for something to then be able to—

Ryan: so Yeah, no, I totally understand that. But it's funny how, like, Josh and I got a documentary and we have a book. There are a million other things for us to do, but like, I'm not even looking at that stuff right now.

Tommy: Yeah.

Ryan: Um, so I would just— I would say look at your projects on like a yearly basis or a 6-month basis. Thinking 10 years out stresses me out, dude. Yeah, my advice is at all—

Tommy: you got to 10 years though, which is impressive.

Ryan: So for you, it was the incremental year, year, and then you end up Started out, we were just gonna do the blog, and then people are like, oh, you're the Minimalists, you should write a book on minimalism. And I'm like, oh yeah, that makes sense. So then we wrote a book, and then we went on tour with the book, and then we wanted to write another book, and then we wanted to write another book. Then Matt D'Avella came to us, he's like, hey, let's do documentary. You're like, oh yeah, that sounds like a good idea. So it's not that we've been flying by the seat of our pants, that's absolutely not it. The thing is, is that when we got into this work there were things thrust upon us to put on our plate, and we can choose whether or not we wanted to put those things on our plate.

Tommy: So, so did opportunities dictate what ended up— it's because Tommy and I, our growth has been slow. We've been building over time, but it's not like, um, it's never felt like, oh, we've been given this crazy opportunity based on something that's happened. Uh, yeah, so I'm just curious about that, getting through the, um Like 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 years. Like, it's a long time.

Ryan: I mean, Josh and I, we look at it in like a year or maybe 2-year increments. So we have one big project that we're working on each year that we're focusing on. Uh, right now it's our documentary. We have a book coming out because we've signed a deal. It's got to be out like 2021, so that'll be next year, although we're still working on that this year. But there's some overlap because this documentary we've been working on for 3 years.

Tommy: Yeah, takes time.

Ryan: Yeah, I mean, that actually— I know this has nothing to do with your question, but let me tell you something about this documentary. Yeah, we recorded everything last, last January, January of 2018.

Tommy: Well, we bumped into Josh, uh, just on, uh, it was right near the Whole Foods. We're walking along Santa Monica Boulevard, and this was just after, like, it would have been 8 months after we'd sort of hung out And he was like, yeah, I think you were at the stage of you just shot this thing in a beautiful warehouse.

Ryan: Yeah, beautiful warehouse, had a crowd in there. And then like Matt D'Avella did his thing with it, which for what he had, it was the best that could have been done with that footage. But dude, it was like, it was, it just was not, we were just weren't super excited about it. It was like a comedy special without the comedy.

Tommy: Yeah.

Ryan: So it's like, it was just like this, there's something there was just something that wasn't— it just didn't feel right. So we scrapped the entire thing. And like, there is some things from that footage that Matt got that we will use, but by and large, like, we're redoing the whole thing.

Tommy: Was that hard?

Ryan: Well, I mean, see, Josh and I, we don't have any expectations with any of our works. The only expectations we have, I guess it's not expectations, it's we have high standards. So We keep our standards high, we keep our expectations low. So when something like that does happen, it's not like, oh, but we were planning on like, this was our paycheck. Like, that wasn't it.

Josh: But what about between yourself and Josh? What, how does that trend, how does that situation play out?

Tommy: Is it like a small conversation? Do you not happy?

Ryan: No, I mean, it was a conversation. Me, Josh, and Matt got on the phone and Matt was like, so what do you think? And I was like, what do you think? No, I told him exactly what I just said. I was like, Matt, you did a phenomenal job. With what we gave you, but what we gave you was not very great. And he was like, well, and it was just, you know, we just kind of talked it out between the three of us. And, um, but I'll tell you what, dude, like letting go of that, it actually feels really good to just be able to kind of let it go and be like, okay, we're not gonna sit here and beat ourselves up. We're gonna start over. We've got, because, you know, again, if, if Josh and I were like, okay, we gotta, this has gotta be filmed in January, Matt's gotta have edited by February, and then we gotta go sell this thing. We gotta, we gotta pay rent. Like, that's the position we've never put ourselves in. Coincidentally, our minimalist lifestyle has helped us get to that spot. I mean, it's funny because like my secret is people ask like, what does minimalism really do for you? And like, I mean, to kind of be cheeky, it's like my secret is I spend less money than what I make. And I started doing that 10 years ago. So I don't, you know, I'm not sitting here swarmed in debt. So we have the opportunity, we have the freedom to be like, yeah, you know what, we're going to spend another year on this project that was supposed to be done last year, but we're going to spend another year on it because that's what needs to be done.

Josh: I think high standards— I think we hold high standards for the stuff we do, which on the other side of that is quite a lot of pressure, personal pressure on the projects we're doing, right? The team pressure. Is it the same?

Ryan: Yeah, those pressures come from expectations, I think, though. So, you know, if you could— if you can keep those expectations as low as possible, there's got to be some, right? But ultimately, like, the lowest— the lower you can keep your expectations, I mean, the happier you're gonna be with the results. But the key is you have to have high standards. You can't have low standards and low expectations, and then, yeah, I mean, it's gonna— everything's gonna fall apart really quickly.

Tommy: What's the difference between standards and expectations?

Ryan: Standards is, are you happy with it? Are you happy with the quality? Have you done the work that you can do to make this creation as best as possible? What else can you do to that creation to make it great? And then you let it go. And then if it might, you know, it might fly away and get shot out of the sky real quick, but if you feel good about it, like, that's what matters, man. And that's how Josh and I have been approaching this whole thing. It's like, you know, we write for us. Like, anytime we write anything, record a podcast, it's, you know, like, how would I talk to Ryan? And I know there's at least one other Ryan's out there.

Josh: And so in terms of audience, Because I hear a lot of people saying, and I think we do the same, we make this show for us. We do something that we can do sustainably and show up every day. When you're thinking about audience and then the feeling of we write for us, where's the consideration? Or is what you guys— have you identified as you guys and how you create is what the audience has been resonating with and connecting with?

Ryan: Well, I mean, there's— you want to respect the audience to a certain level. But ultimately, like, what I mean by that is, is like, I'll try to cuss as little as possible because I want to respect our audience.

Tommy: Is that a new thing?

Ryan: No, no, no. I mean, we still cuss everyone a little bit. Yeah, no, we, we cuss sometimes, but I mean, it's more about like, I probably, not thinking about it, would cuss more because that's just how I was raised. What, you know, school. I mean, that's just like, it's in my vernacular. I'm not proud of it, it just is. But to the extent of curse words, that's where I'm like, okay, I'm gonna respect the audience and I'm not gonna sit here and cuss a lot because there's kids listening. I know parents are like, hey, come listen to this. And it's, you know, so like that's, but that's to the extent, you know, like I'm not gonna wear a loincloth and do, you know, and do our talk out of respect. Actually, I probably, I wouldn't want to wear a loincloth anyway. But by and large though, we don't, you know, we're not recording things or we're not writing things to be like, oh, you know, this one thing was— man, Josh's, Josh's house tour was really, really popular. We should start talking about only apartments. Yeah, and minimalist apartments, and that's gonna get us the most views. I mean, right now, if you go to YouTube, those— that is the most views. It's Josh's minimalist apartment tour. And I guarantee if we started doing some kind of aesthetic apartment, like, we— maybe we get more views, maybe we get more subscribers. But then I'm doing it for them, not for, you know, not for people who are like me. That's why we started the website is because when I was going— when we were going through all of our minimalism journeys, I'm like, dude, there are people out there who are just like us and they need to hear this. And that is who I talk to. That is who we talk to, people who were kind of experiencing, you know, or going through the same thing. It's evolved much past that.

Tommy: As a creator, how has sort of woke culture affected what you guys do?

Ryan: Oh, you know what, dude? Like, I'm pretty, um, I'm pretty, uh, sensitive myself. I'm pretty woke myself. Call me Ryan Woke Nicodemus. No, man, I mean, it's— people give us a hard time every once in a while about something small. I can't remember the last time. In fact, even if I did, I wouldn't even want to talk about it because I feel good about what I do, and like, I very much go out of my way to consider other people's, you know, emotions. And I mean, case in point is just the cursing thing. Like, that is being considerate. Like, I can look in the mirror and be like, okay, Ryan, to say fuck every other word, it's A, like, people aren't gonna hear your message, just gonna hear the F-word. And yeah, and B, like, it's offensive to some people. And, uh, yeah, like, I— so I feel like I go way out of my way to like to not offend anyone. And yeah, of course there's going to be, because that's the culture we live in. It's a culture of outrage.

Tommy: Yeah.

Ryan: Uh, but yeah, I mean, it's, it's like if someone tweets me something, I'll just— I just look at them like they're a seagull, man. Like, they're just like flying by. Yeah, they're shitting on my stuff and then they fly away. And why would I ever Like, if a seagull actually shit on me, I mean, what— I mean, yeah, you know, tweeting back, I'd wipe it off. Yeah, I'm not gonna like chase the seagull down. Yeah, I'm not gonna sit there and like go to bed at night, be like, oh, that's seagull. Like, I'm gonna just— in fact, when I was in Australia, we were in, uh, at Heron Island.

Tommy: Yeah.

Ryan: And I think the ratio of birds to people is like literally like 1,000 birds to 1 person that's there on Heron Island. And you are— you are going to get shit on every day.

Tommy: It's Twitter.

Ryan: Yeah, it's Twitter, right? And you know what, every time a bird crapped on me, I was just like, I am so lucky to be on Heron Island right now. This is so nice to be on here.

Josh: People think it's good luck, right, being shit on?

Ryan: Yeah, yeah, I've heard that before. But it's the same thing in Twitter, like, it's, it's like people might shit on our work, but there is a difference though between criticism and feedback. If someone's trying to give me feedback, hey Ryan, you cussed too much in that episode. I wanted my 5-year-old to listen to that, but we're really trying to show them the importance of cuss words, and you said the F word about 20 times. 'So unfortunately I can't play that episode for my 5-year-old.' That is feedback. Criticism is like, 'Hey man, you didn't, you know, you didn't whatever.' It is a— I'm trying to think of some woke stuff, but I don't want to offend anybody.

Tommy: I guess people love calling out when they think you're not being a minimalist.

Ryan: Yeah, yeah, that's exactly it. Criticism is like, 'Hey man, like what you do, but I saw that you fly an airplane, so You're not a minimalist. And, and I'm— and it's like, okay, if that's how that person feels, what am I gonna— what am I gonna say?

Tommy: They don't need a fucking plane, they're a seagull.

Ryan: Right? Yeah.

Josh: And so what about between you and Josh, uh, feedback? How do you—

Tommy: internal feedback?

Ryan: Oh dude, no, we— him and I are very good about being radically honest with each other. Um, we are— it's weird because we both play this like mentor to each other, and so that makes us both mentees to each other. And I think that's why what we do works so well, is because it's like this good yin and yang. I mean, nothing he ever— like, he knows, and that's just because we've known each other since we were, you know, in the 5th grade. I'm never going to just criticise him for the sake of criticism. Like, if I say something to him, he knows it's feedback, and vice versa.

Tommy: Do you catch yourself— like, say, um, uh, Tommy and I were talking the other day, and I felt that he wasn't being empathetic in the moment. And I catch myself or caught myself, uh, pulling him up on shit. And I was— and it was me not being empathetic. Like, I was almost doing a bit—

Ryan: you were projecting it. Yeah.

Tommy: And I picked up when I was like, oh, this is what I'm doing. And we had like a great conversation. Yeah. And it was like, it was all good.

Ryan: But I think that's a sign of like— that's a sign of a good partnership when you can kind of be honest with each other. And even like, um, I mean, Josh and I don't like really get into fights But if we ever have and I'm wrong, like I'm very— even with Mariah, you can ask her, it's like, you know, it'll be later in the day after we had a, you know, some kind of disagreement. I'm like, oh, you know what? Like I was wrong and I have no problem admitting that I'm wrong. And like that, that's going to make for good relationships in general. I mean, think about what you want out of a relationship, man. You want to trust someone. You want someone to be genuine. You want them to be consistent. You want someone to show you respect. Like that's whether it's romantic, whether it's a partnership, whether it's friendship, like that's what you want out of relationships, dude. So. If you can do those 4 things, like, you're gonna go get along with a lot more people than not. If they don't give that back to you, then fuck them.

Tommy: A lot of the content is obviously around minimalism. How do you deal with the moments where it's obviously a lifestyle that you live? Do you have moments being like, I can't be fucked talking about minimalism today?

Ryan: Oh yeah, dude, all the time. It's so funny, like, I love having meaningful conversations. Yeah. But like, I have friends in LA who I don't know what they do for a living.

Tommy: Yeah.

Ryan: And they don't know what I do for a living. I've just met them at random places and we're friends and we hang out.

Tommy: Yeah, you deal.

Ryan: And then like, right, right, exactly. No, no. So like, um, my buddy, uh, he, the other day he was like, dude, I just, I saw the minimalist stuff come up. And he's like, you're one of the minimalists. I'm like, yeah. He's like, we should have conversations. I'm like, dude, I like hanging out with you because we don't talk about minimalism.

Josh: What are you talking about?

Ryan: And it's not that I don't like talking about minimalism, but like, the thing is, is like, I do that for work constantly. So I, I, I, this, the very—

Tommy: Ruins the vibe at the strippers.

Ryan: No, no, I can't hear you. I'm pretty congruent with my life. Candies, candies on top. I am like, no, I'm pretty congruent with my life outside of this.

Josh: What's Ryan saying?

Ryan: He doesn't go to the strippers. But here's the thing, man, is like, to put it simply, I have a life outside of minimalism.

Tommy: Yeah.

Ryan: And some people, yeah, they, I guess They— the worst question is, like, I was at— I forget where I was, and this girl was like, "Are you one of the minimalist?" She's like, "So, what's your favourite thing about minimalism?" I was just like, "Please not do this." And so, what do you and your buddy talk about?

Josh: What's the conversation you have?

Ryan: Oh, no, we play board games, dude. His dad is a screenwriter. We talked about, like, a lot of his— like, the world that he was part of, the Hollywood world that he was part of. Um, we talk about—

Tommy: What are you playing?

Ryan: Uh, Catan is what we were playing recently. Yeah. Um, we need to set some time aside for Civilization. I've never played the computer game. So Civilization.

Tommy: I haven't either.

Ryan: No, I've only played the board game, but the board game, it's like an 8-hour game for 4 people, especially if they're new.

Tommy: Yeah.

Ryan: Like it's definitely like an 8-hour board game, but it's so much fun, man. So yeah, I mean, we just like, yeah, we just talk about, uh, he went to Burning Man recently. He was telling me about that experience. I mean, you know, just, we just talk about our everyday lives, dude. And that's it. Like, We're friends, we have commonalities, same interests, so we're just constantly talking about our commonalities and same interests. Sometimes minimalism comes up, and I am happy to talk about it, don't get me wrong, but to your point, like, I don't just always talk about minimalism.

Josh: Well, finding— being able to find a job where it can be a part of your life to a huge extent means that the job doesn't feel as much like a job, but then you don't want to be— you don't want to be your job.

Tommy: Yeah, it's like asking Uber drivers, like, how long you been doing this for?

Ryan: You know, But that's appropriate, though, because, like, you are— You're in their car as they're working. It would be like someone coming on my podcast wanting to talk about minimalism and me being like, "Let's not talk about that right now." No, I do love talking about it.

Tommy: Sounds like you love talking about it.

Josh: How do you not make it your— who you are, your being?

Ryan: So, here's the thing, is that, first off, I wanna go back to what you said about if you're doing something you love, you feel like you're really not working. Um, that is true to an extent, meaning I feel really lucky I don't have a boss, but I work. We work a lot, dude. So there's something in Western culture, you know, there's this idiom that goes along, some something like, uh, if you find a job you love, you never work another day in your life. Yeah, bullshit. That might actually happen to somebody. Like, I'm not saying that, you know, there's always an exception to the rule, but that's a really bad expectation because what happens is you'll find something you're passionate about, you start to make money from it, and then you start to resent it because then you have to do it to make the money. Where when you did it before making money, you just did it in your free time and it was, it was fun to do.

Tommy: I heard a great adaptation to that, which is like, you know, if you find something you love, you'll never work a day in your life, but you also never get a day off, right?

Ryan: Yeah, that's good. That's great, man. That is true. So, so yeah, like for me, the work I do, it is in alignment with my values and like it doesn't— well, actually, even more important, because, because not everyone can just, you know, become a minimalist, start a blog and a podcast. Like, what I do doesn't go against my values. So the whole idea for Josh and I was to like pay off debt, get rid of stuff, sell my house, sell my car, you know, just get to as little debt as possible. And then I was gonna be— go be a barista, man. Like, that was my goal. Barista— I mean, I do love coffee, don't get me wrong, but like I could have found a company that I liked. I could have just, you know, paid the bills. But really the idea of being a barista, it wasn't about like, oh, I'm going to be a barista and like be happy. It was about getting my time back. So I think that is how you balance, you know, if you're doing something that you're passionate about, you still have to have time outside of that to cultivate other things. I mean, dude, if I, if I was only passionate about minimalism, that would really bum me out, dude. Like, I'm passionate about so many more things— snowboarding, surfing, longboarding, wakeboarding, anything with a board except waterboarding.

Tommy: I am like, waterboarding.

Ryan: What's waterboarding? I know what waterboarding is. Took me a sec.

Tommy: It's funny, I actually imagine like water, but like, I imagine like it's like, yeah, it's not skimboarding, but it's a—

Ryan: but no, dude, like, I, I have so many other passions outside, and that I think that's the key to like maintaining a balance between like what you do for work as a passion And then, you know, having other passions to cultivate outside. And that's the other thing too, is like, we're not born to do one thing. So if you ever find the one thing that you were meant to do, you're screwed. Like the dude who invented the Polaroid, you know about this story?

Josh: No.

Ryan: So the guy who invented the Polaroid camera, his whole thing was like, I just want to make an invention, it's going to make millions of dollars, and it's going to help millions of people. And he got there by like 40, 40, killed himself after like 5 years. It wasn't long after because he was like, well, That was the one thing I meant I was meant to do, and I did it, and now I have nothing else to live for. And like, here's the other thing too, is you saw digital coming, right? Right. But here's the thing too, man, is like, let's say you, you're a— all right, I'll use myself. If I am really interested in snowboarding and then I go out and I become a professional snowboarder and I win all the gold medals in all the contests, okay, like the human brain is designed to like move on to the next thing. Like we master something, we move on to the next thing, master something, move on to the next thing. Um, I have no chance of becoming a gold medalist, like I understand that, but, but what I'm trying to say though is like that there it is, it is a really— it's a big bummer if you have only one thing that you're passionate about in your life. The key is like to have a lot of interests, cultivate maybe some of those into passions. Um, if you can find a job that You know, great. Like, your interests are included in there and your passions are included in there. Great. But that, again, that also can be a double-edged sword. Um, when it comes to work, man, it's just like, find something that, you know, you can go to work and you're not killing puppies, you know? Like, yeah, yeah, like, you can do something unless you're a vet. Unless you're a vet.

Josh: Are we just talking about hobbies? Like, are we need— like, are we missing hobbies in our lives?

Ryan: Are we missing hobbies? I don't know, man. Are you missing hobbies?

Josh: Uh, I mean, I sometimes think about the things that bring me the most joy or have the most fun— skateboarding, all these things— and then I think about how often I do them. And so I might think I love them, but I don't do them as much as I feel like I love them.

Ryan: Yeah.

Josh: And so a friend of ours, he's a, you know, he'd made a lot of money, lost it all, and, and he now speaks about his sort of rise back up and understanding that it's not all about the material stuff. It's, you know, similar messages to what you guys do, but he's so convinced and he talks to these big corporates that don't have any hobbies in their life. Like they're not finding an outlet outside of what they do.

Tommy: Which I guess is that mean, like, I guess maybe you can find meaning through hobbies.

Ryan: Yeah, I mean, I think again, like we are content, we're happy. We feel, you know, like we're living a meaningful life when we are— one of the pieces is when we are growing. And when you are, you know, for me, I was in a sales job, which I was really passionate about at first, man. Like, it was great managing salespeople. Like, there were pieces of it I liked, dude. I was a really good sales guy. Like, my whole thing was, is because—

Tommy: what was a day in the life back then?

Ryan: Well, I mean, I had so many promotions, man. It was a different day, different year. But the thing is, is like, when I would think of salespeople you know, before I became a salesman, it was like kind of this icky feeling, like, I gotta go talk to a sales guy. But then when I was a salesman, I was like, wait a minute, like, people want to be sold. People need help. They just want you to be nice, and they want you to be honest, and they want you to be upfront. So like, I really enjoyed what I did, but I mastered it. But unfortunately, I had made my life to where that's all I had time to do was to work.

Tommy: So you were selling cell phones? Yeah, yeah, cell phones and internet and How would you actually say if it was a call, if I was a customer?

Ryan: I don't remember, dude.

Tommy: Come on, you gotta do a little bit of improv.

Ryan: I don't even remember it.

Josh: I don't remember, but he knows he'd sell you.

Tommy: I get you.

Ryan: I'm already— so he— look, I'm such a good salesman, he's trying to get me to sell him. What was it?

Tommy: Do you remember the handset? Was it like a fucking Nokia or Motorola?

Ryan: Yeah, dude, we— yeah, we had all those except for iPhones. Because we had a regional carrier and we weren't big enough to buy enough iPhones, so they wouldn't sell to us because we weren't— we were small fish.

Josh: So you probably had an understanding of not tricks, but not even manipulations, but the psychology, the psychology of the sale back in the day.

Ryan: No, sales is like, you have to, you have to be talking about something that you really believe in, and then you have to show people the benefits of of, hey, this is why I like this thing, you might like it for this reason too. Like, that's all sales is.

Josh: So not hard.

Ryan: I mean, that's what it gets— what good sales is.

Josh: I once had a car salesman, I thought I was in a movie scene, wrote it down on a piece of paper and slid it across the table.

Ryan: And I said, what is this here?

Josh: I said, mate, that's not what you just said. He was just like— it was out of control. Oh, it was bad sales.

Ryan: It was very bad.

Josh: Have you taken the skills, because you said it was, you know, something that you were good at, you found it as one of your skill sets.

Ryan: Well, this— but the skill set though is just being able to have an honest conversation about something. So yes, I have honest conversations right now. I mean, yeah, I mean, that's— well, the other thing too is public speaking. Like, managing a bunch of people, that— I mean, that totally honed in some public speaking stuff. It's like, you know, I can go in front of a crowd. So like the first time we ever did a tour and, you know, there's people in front of us, I was already used to speaking in front of people. So yeah, there's certainly things that I took from that corporate world that I really— managing is, you know, another skill that I took from there. So yeah, there's certainly even, you know, the worst job I've ever had, uh, uh, there was still something I could take away from it.

Tommy: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Payback.

Ryan: But so goes life, man. Yeah. I mean, you're probably gonna live a happier life if you can look back at something you hate and be like, you know what though, that actually did give me this and that. Like, you're probably gonna live a happier life.

Josh: People who might be telling themselves the storey of, you know, I want to sort of downsize, I want to do the things that you do, get out of debt, sort of remove that congestion in my life, but I can't do it until I get a raise or until I get here.

Ryan: Well, have a plan. Yeah, you're not gonna listen to any of Josh and I's podcasts or this podcast and then get the magic answer to be like, "Oh, I can quit my job tomorrow and start a blog and be okay." Like, that's never the case. I mean, what Josh and I do is we talk to people about dealing with these impulses, how to have good habits in your life so that you can work towards a plan that will ultimately get you to where you want to be. I mean, yeah, I had a packing party and got all my stuff packed up, dude. And, uh, literally like Josh came over and I had boxes and boxes everywhere, dude, and I unpacked things as I needed it for 3 weeks. Literally everything, dude. Like every single— the only thing we didn't pack up was so annoying. I know it was. Well, it was fun though, man, because like we called it a packing party.

Tommy: Yeah, I just like boombox.

Ryan: Josh doesn't drink, but I was just like, you know, had some beers and like ordered a couple pizzas and it was great, man. Um, no boomboxes. The furniture we had to cover because like, you know, you can't put that in boxes, but, uh After those 3 weeks, I had just had like this realisation of like, oh, there's 80% of my stuff still sitting in the boxes. Like there's something, there's a, there's something wrong with this picture. And that was the whole, you know, the precipice of The Minimalists. Um, but yeah, I mean, that wasn't certainly, I didn't just quit my job after that. I was like, oh, packing party. Now I can quit my job. It was like, it just helped me realise all of these things that I brought into my life to make me happy, there were thousands of dollars that could have been— went towards debt, could be in my retirement account. So I was like, oh, I have to start making different decisions. So then I started making different decisions and then I got laid off about, I don't know, a year later after, after that packing party, a year and a half later after the packing party. So for someone who's trying to do what we do, yeah, it's really simple, but simple ain't easy, man. Like simple is simple. What is easy is going with the flow. That's what's easy. Simple is, um, simple is deliberate. And I think we, you know, too often confuse simple with easy. So, uh, yeah, anyone can absolutely pay off their debt, can have a nice retirement if they're not making decisions today that are getting them, you know, uh, taking them down that path. They have to start making different decisions, and anyone can make different decisions, man.

Tommy: What's, what's your relationship with social media?

Ryan: Um, it's a tool, man.

Tommy: Mm-hmm.

Ryan: Social media is— it is whatever you make of it. I could sit here and tell you why I love Twitter. I could sit here and tell you why I hate Twitter. I think with anything in our lives, it's about finding a balance and making sure that the tools we have in our lives, we're using them appropriately. You know, if I had a hammer and I'm hammering a nail, great. If I'm hitting you over the head with it, not great. It's the same tool. Yeah, just You know, so I look at social media the same way.

Tommy: Um, could you imagine if just everyone was on the train looking at their hammer, just playing every— just walking across the street and hammers? Be so weird.

Ryan: Yeah, it is weird, man. We know it's— we're living in some strange times for sure. And social media is— it is doing something strange because I'll tell you, even— well, just the smartphone in general. Um, I will sit down in the movie theatre to watch a movie, and I'm like, I have to talk myself out of grabbing my phone, and I don't even know why I'm grabbing it. It's like, I don't know, man. Even as one of the minimalists, man, like, I struggle with it again. Like, there's no magic answer that's gonna like take care of all your problems. It's, it's about accepting, you know, these— the tools we have, these things we have available to us, and learning how to deal with all the impulses that come along with that. And I think if you can learn how to deal with those impulses, it's much better than getting rid of them anyway.

Josh: A lot of people need to make hard cuts, or they think they need to make hard cuts. So for me, quit alcohol this year. I thought I won't even, you know, I wasn't even drinking that much, but I drink most weekends is what I'd done since I was 13. But I saw cutting it off as the way.

Ryan: Are you happier?

Josh: Yeah, uh, I think we're better. I think we're doing more. I'm enjoying taking care of myself more. I think I'm a better husband, a better business partner. So I see the benefits. Drinking is fun. Drinking makes you feel good, right? But that I know is not forever. You have a drink and an hour later you're sober. Yeah. A lot of people are cutting out things. I know Aubrey Marcus, he's quit sex for 6 months. There's a bunch of things that do—

Ryan: this is like some weird— I just saw this thing today. Um, it was like Silicon Valley, uh, dopamine fasts. Dopamine fasts. So like basically they try to, they, they, uh, will not, they'll, yeah, they will not do any activity you can think of associated with dopamine, sex, drugs, alcohol, partying, watching TV. Like they literally like try to fast themselves from dopamine. I don't know, man. I, I, if you guys haven't heard about that, look it up.

Tommy: It's full on.

Ryan: It's crazy. Yeah. Well, I mean, dopamine fast.

Josh: Uh, you've sort of put a stop to a certain lifestyle in the past. Where do you see it going with these cuts, and what do you interpret in people quitting stuff? Is it the answer of making a hard cut?

Ryan: I think, I think if you can master balance, like, that's probably the secret to life. Um, it's not very easy to do, especially when everything is at your fingertips and everything is in your face. Like, I often think about if I moved out to LA at 25 years old, it would have probably chewed me up and spit me out, man. But like now, after going down the roads I've gone down and the lessons I've learned, I can live in LA and like it doesn't faze me. I mean, I still see a Tesla. I'm like, God, I'd love to have a Tesla. But ultimately—

Tommy: You should get a Tesla.

Ryan: No, but—

Tommy: No, get one. No, here's the thing. You can get a fucking lease here.

Ryan: Yeah, but here's the thing about a Tesla is like, I know that I'm lying to myself when I say, oh, I would enjoy LA more if I had a Tesla. "Oh, traffic wouldn't be as bad." I reckon you would.

Josh: We've said all of those things, actually.

Tommy: No, but I reckon you would, man. You'd be able to fuckin'... It'd be great.

Josh: The 405? No worries.

Ryan: Yeah, just put it on autopilot.

Tommy: You'd get shit done.

Ryan: Yeah, dude. I guess, dude, but like...

Josh: It would be...

Ryan: Here's the thing. OK, let's give you an example, Josh. I had a dream I got a Tesla. I had a dream that I was like, "Screw it." Yeah.

Tommy: Auto accident.

Ryan: I dipped into my house fund. I paid cash for it, man.

Tommy: Yeah, that's the problem. Don't pay cash, just lease.

Josh: Right.

Tommy: Go on.

Ryan: So I had the Tesla and I was in my dream, I was driving it and the feeling I had, it was, I guess regret would be the best way to say it. And it wasn't regret like as in, why did I do this? I just remember being in my Tesla and I was like, this is cool. But like, you know, I, it didn't make me as happy as I thought it would. And I think that is actually what we do in our lives. We, we lie to ourselves. And we say, oh, I like— personally, I would enjoy LA more if I had a Tesla. But as soon as I bought a Tesla, yeah, I'd get a little bit of maybe a little bit of dopamine, but I'm expecting that much dopamine.

Tommy: Yeah.

Ryan: And I'd only get like a little bit. And that's— I think that's a symptom of something that we do in general.

Tommy: So is it almost— are you scared of things where you have high expectations? Yeah.

Ryan: Yeah, I guess. Yeah, it totally goes back to that.

Tommy: So maybe if it was like, you know what, I'm going to get the Tesla. I've got high standards. It's a quality car, right? I am going to enjoy it, but I realise it's not going to change my life.

Ryan: Yeah.

Tommy: However, I'm going to do everything I can to do the things, and I want to be the guy with the Tesla that goes on road trips.

Ryan: I'm not knocking anyone who has a nice car or who has a Tesla.

Tommy: I don't have a Tesla. I would love a Tesla. Yeah.

Ryan: But I'm just saying, like, for me, the reward is not as much as my brain is telling me it is.

Tommy: Yeah.

Ryan: But I only know this because I've been doing this for the last— I've been talking myself out of things for the last 10 years. And that's really like what minimalism has helped me do. It's not like buy our books, listen to our podcast, watch the documentary, and you're going to not want to— you're not going to want to buy anything ever again in your life. Like, it's just learning how to deal with those impulses that we constantly get. And I've done such a good job and have built such good habits and of dealing with those impulses that now, yeah, the dopamine goes off thinking about getting a Tesla, but I'm like, it's really not. And even again, having that dream, I felt like I was there. I felt like I was there driving it. I mean, I did not realise it was a dream until I woke up and I was like, oh, that's interesting. Like, I had a Tesla, and even in my dream I was like, huh, it's so interesting, isn't it?

Tommy: Because I get it, I do. I like it. I think that like we do that with all different types of things. I do that with my weight. I'm like, once I get to this weight, if I'm like, if I can fit, I'll fit into these clothes and then I'll be able to do this and that and I'll feel better.

Ryan: Have you ever heard of Object A? No, dude, there's a great podcast, uh, Rob Bell and, uh, Peter Rollins did this podcast all about object day. And object day is this thing, it's— we tell ourselves if we get X, if we lose enough weight, if we get a Tesla, if we stop drinking for a year, we tell ourselves like that's what we need to complete our life, that's what's going to make us happy. And as soon as we get it, then there's a different object day. And Peter's whole thing is— and I'm only using his name because like, I don't want to— these are not my thoughts, these are Peter's thoughts. But this whole thing is, is like, the secret to life is that there is no secret. And if I— I guess if I could just add to that, like, think about, um, I've been watching, uh, um, The Politician. Have you seen this on Netflix? So good, dude. So, um, there's this analogy in the show where this woman, she's like, oh, you know, life is a shit tornado. And it's got little bits of gold in it, and you gotta like, you gotta figure out how to live in this tornado and eat the shit, grab these little bits of gold. Yeah, but I was thinking about like literally being in a shit tornado, and I thought to myself, my whole— I would be like trying to get— I tried to be staying shit-free as much as possible.

Tommy: Yeah.

Ryan: And then I had this epiphany where I was like, you know, life is this shit tornado. Take the gold out of it. Life is a shit tornado, and it's not about trying to keep as much shit off of you as possible. It's being able to, like, look in the mirror covered in shit and being like, "This is all right. This isn't that bad." I love that. You know what I'm saying?

Tommy: I could imagine a reenactment for your new documentary. In a shit tornado.

Ryan: In a shit tornado, yeah.

Tommy: That'd be great fun.

Ryan: But that's— I mean, but that is— That's just it, man. It's like, not being able to fit in your clothes, you should be able to be happy with not being able to fit in your clothes. I mean, there are some health things. There are some, you know— I mean, I'm not gonna—

Josh: When do we believe the stories? Stories that we tell ourselves. So for me, I was thinking for the year of no drinking, it's going to give me the best shot. I think we'll be able to make the best of this business, this new partnership, the podcast, my marriage, all these things. When do we actually believe the stories?

Tommy: Well, like, I guess minimalism in some way for a lot of people is that object A.

Ryan: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think it could be, man. But here's the thing is like not drinking for a year, maybe you were looking at it and thinking that— and this is possible, there are people out there who alcohol takes away, it inhibits them from fully, you know, them committing to a relationship or business projects or whatever it may be. Maybe it is distracting. And I think that it is important to believe— yeah, you might have heart disease or something and you're like, oh, I gotta lose weight because I have heart disease.

Tommy: Yeah.

Ryan: So I think what minimalism helps us do though is it helps us to really kind of choose what those— what the important things are instead of thinking that everything that we feel like is important is important.

Tommy: Makes a lot of sense. I mean, it's a filter for life. I think that that's the other thing, is it's not like minimal— minimalism looks different for every individual, which I think is cool.

Ryan: Yeah.

Tommy: Um, your Netflix doco, uh, Minimalism, uh, it was amazing. I actually saw it before it was on Netflix. That's my little claim to, claim to fame. I went into a cinema in Melbourne and did the whole Remember where it was like, we did Gather? Yeah, did the whole Gather thing.

Ryan: Yeah, that was what we did. Yeah, it's so funny because hindsight, like, we did, we did all these like film festivals, we went, we went to theaters, and like, we would have cut all that out. We would have just went like straight to Netflix, straight to Vimeo. It didn't even— oh really? Yeah, I mean, Netflix only picked it up because it was on Vimeo, and it, you know, they were like, oh, like, this is— people are watching this. Well, yeah, let's have it on Netflix. So, um Yeah, it's just funny thinking about that because it was such a pain in the ass to get that in the theater.

Tommy: Yeah.

Ryan: And like, it just was not emotionally to— yeah, but you know, you learn your lessons of business.

Tommy: And so, um, the, the new documentary, have you got a title for it? Is it Minimalism 2?

Ryan: Uh, it's Less Is Now. Less Is Now is the name of the documentary. And is that a title of your book?

Tommy: Have you got a book called—

Ryan: yeah, our book that we're working on is— oh no, no, um, so the books we have right now is Minimalism: Live a Meaningful Life. That's the first book we wrote, Josh and I. We talk about, um, what our foundational values are. And then, um, from those foundational values, we have built off of that over the last 10 years. Uh, we have a book out there, um, it's a collection of essays and it's— you can get all of those essays on our website for free. Um, but we just kind of took the best of and like condensed it into one book. And then we have Everything That Remains, which is a nonfiction narrative of Josh and I going from, you know, suit and tie corporate guys to minimalists. And then we have a book that's coming out in like 2022 called— I'm sorry, 2021, uh, that's called Love People, Use Things. And then the documentary is Less Is Now.

Tommy: Oh, awesome.

Ryan: And that'll be out next year. Yeah, we got a lot of— it's funny because hindsight, it's like, God, we got a lot of stuff, man.

Tommy: Yeah.

Ryan: But when we started, it wasn't like, okay, we need to do 3 books. Yeah, we gotta have 2 documentaries. We gotta do the 4th book by 2021. I mean This is— these are things that, again, opportunities that have presented themselves and we're like, oh yeah, well, we can take that and put it on our plate and we can create something meaningful.

Tommy: Awesome, man. I love your outlook on life and that you don't take shit too seriously.

Ryan: Dude, you can't, man. You just can't. When you start taking it too seriously, man, it's just— I don't know. I don't believe in reincarnation, but I feel like if you take life too seriously, like you're going to die and come right back. Yeah.

Josh: Sakti nga. I'm going to do it again.

Ryan: Right? Like you learn nothing.

Tommy: On that note, it's The Daily Talk Show. If you've enjoyed the show, uh, feel free to share it on Instagram. Hi@thedailytalkshow.com is the email address. Definitely go cheque out The Minimalists on Apple Podcasts as well. You guys are smashing it with the podcast.

Ryan: Yeah, you can go to theminimalists.com and everything is there.

Tommy: Yeah, you can cheque us out. Convenient. Uh, it's The Daily Talk Show. See you tomorrow, guys.

Josh: See you guys.

Ryan: See ya.