#499 – Craig Bruce & Jay Mueller On Understanding Your Audience & Team/
- October 28, 2019
Craig Bruce & Jay Mueller join us on the show! We chat about the need to focus on the audience, advice for upcoming producers, independent podcasters and podcasting networks.
On today’s episode of The Daily Talk Show, we discuss:
– The modern-day whiteboard
– Ad-lib, preparation, planning and winging it
– Focusing on the audience
– Where you are positioned in the market
– Broadcast and narrowcast audiences
– Advice for upcoming producers
– The Game Changers: Radio podcast
– Being self-employed and working for a business
– Relationship with money
– Big media and independent upcomers
– Podcast independence and networks
– The Game Changers: Radio book
– Common content and radio misconceptions
– Podcast recommendations
Craig and Jay’s new book, Game Changers: Radio:
Game Changers Radio: https://podcasts.apple.com/au/podcast/game-changers-radio/id1101042226
A Conversation with Scott Galloway:
Stay Tuned with Preet:
Email us: email@example.com
Send us mail: PO BOX 400, Abbotsford VIC 3067
The Daily Talk Show is an Australian talk show and daily podcast by Tommy Jackett and Josh Janssen. Tommy and Josh chat about life, creativity, business, and relationships — big questions and banter. Regularly visited by guests and gronks! If you watch the show or listen to the podcast, you’re part of the Gronk Squad.
This podcast is produced by BIG MEDIA COMPANY. Find out more at https://bigmediacompany.com/
It's the daily Talk Show Episode 499. Happy Monday. Welcome to the show. Craig Bruce once again la mula for the first time. You got my name right this time.
Actually, no, it's I stuffed it up early. I called you hops because if I cry, I'm just so used to calling Craig hops. Yeah. Anyway. Well, difficult should it for a host of a podcast to get that sort of stuff. Right. That's all right. Yeah. I mean, I love you. For 99 so 500 tomorrow. Are you ready? Live event? Yeah, I use 79. Just around the corner. Just having coffee. Yeah. And we were just there. A lot of grain right? Yeah, in the back. That's why it's gonna go down wrong. And when you say Are you ready? will be ready. Yeah, it was just I think in the weekend banter you were talking about how you're going to meet everybody who turns out ya know whether you want to make it a good experience for them, right. Yeah, definitely. I think if I remember correctly, you said you were
Worried about remembering people's names? Have you considered Daily Show daily talk show name tags. Yeah, I did think that I feel too much like a conference it could be
nothing I mean I'm instead of doing some of that in admin, so I couldn't go and get a sim just flat out nine tags and it's like it's all for Josh.
I appreciate it. I always just I like it at networking events or not that I go to those but things you just look down and you just it's easy you feel like you can build a bit more rapport with each Hey Stephen how we fact it because we did we went to an event the other way can we did first and last name just too much for people.
From the daily talk show, seven day week podcast, I know you guys have just come off the back of your live event. I was listening last night walking around the park. Oh, thank you. It's what I took from it was that we're in trouble because we haven't planned because you sound like you're playing.
Did you plan it? How the structure and how what you were saying?
What for that particular event? Our God? Yeah. I mean, I'm I'm terrible off the cuff. I'm not a great ad lib. So I spend months on events like that, or presentations like that. And so yeah, I imagined the audience being similar to the podcast audience. And I don't know whether actually Jay can tell me if we've got the numbers, right in terms of demographics, but I assume that the audience are young radio people wanting to learn about radio and broadcast and communication in general. So I sort of pitched the live event at young regional breakfast hosts a young Tommy starting out and shipping on what does he need to know and and, yeah, you need to plan if you want to, you want to be any good, you gotta do the backend work. And there was this this theory that if you're on the air for three hours, you need to be doing at least three hours of prep,
to kind of match the the the output. So yeah, it's super important, really important. Is there a modern day version of the whiteboard, or is it just remained the same?
Well I like seeing a mean this is just a personal thing and you know Jay does it differently in terms of the digital side of it, but I just like seeing ideas in front of me. I just feel like as soon as you have a moment right at somewhere and then it just it feels more communal. You've gotten your thoughts captured somewhere. So you're doing JO for your show. We so on Kennedy Malloy in Sugarland, we do WhatsApp saying we got a whatsapp group for producers in a whatsapp group for making Jane. So we sort of filter things through the producer group. First, here's some ideas. Here's something we saw, here's what's going on. And then we consolidate all of that. And James, our producer puts that all through into the WhatsApp channel for making Jane. They then go through it and we come back. We just sort of create things through that and bring them all together. Craig, you said you're not an AD AD AD guy.
You've worked with Eddie McGuire. Josh for many years. What is he is he and Emily at
A mix of both he's incredibly smart incredibly fast and is constantly thinking but also can be prepared and if he knows that, okay, we need to, I need to get a particular message across, he'll prepare what it is he has to say. So he'll know that Okay, I have to get these three things across then the rest will be all deadlift. And it's one of his great strengths You know, he doesn't need a lot of preparation. He just needs here are the highlights here are the bullet points. This is the the big splashes they say. And then he goes out and does it that's not as it's under me said anyone wing it. Anyone actually go to wing it. You said at the conference. Don't wing it. You'll Yeah. They would be some that dude.
I mean, mighty she got probably doesn't do a lot of written prep. I mean, he reads the newspaper and it's the funniest thing on it. When he's just writing out the storey. He's like he's ready for the first time because he's like, Oh my God.
You know, soon as he opens his mouth, he's funny.
I guess if you're really sharp and fast on your feet, then and you have that kind of natural ability to be able to react quickly.
I mean, Kyle wins it. I mean, Kyle, I guess in a way the show happens to him and he reacts as the audience would react. So he's hearing the content often for the first time. And, you know, so that works for him, because he's really, you know, he's unique in that way. But you would hate to take the exception to the rule and go Yeah, well, let's put that across every single young charming, you know, Carlton's up at one minute to six as well. And,
but that works, it works because he's in a headspace where as I said that the content is happening to him, he's reacting in the moment. It's all natural and and he's got this incredible co host on the other side of the desk, who is essentially managing the show and ahead and and he's just working with her. So every situation is different, but, you know, I think as a starting point, to have
Some kind of sense of what you're doing and where you're going. And and as you kind of move back from so there's the yarn, a component of what are we doing in this next break and what is happening in this next three minutes. But I think it's just as you step back and look at, well, there's the break and here's the show and here's the and here's my career and here's what I want the next five years to look like. I think the more you can kind of verbalise and visualise some of that thinking that the better chance you've got of having some success that would be my general for now. I'm not sure what you guys do in that respect. But yeah, did you have a 500? I Russia one minute before.
Most of most of our time is spent like cleaning the kitchen.
I think it'd be giving someone too much credit to say they wing it. And I haven't thought about anything other than it when it comes to the moment. I think we live in the seven day awake thing, meaning we're constantly digesting, thinking about what we're doing arcs that are happening. So it's like wait
You submerge yourself in a world and then world is what we share. And so when I, I think some for me sometimes the winning comes from the uncomfortableness of having to delve into some kind of prep or research, which, I don't think I do that well, yeah, but then I'm giving myself too much couldn't think that I can just wing it. Because I think a lot about everything. Yeah, but I mean prepping research is listening to my podcast last night and to get a sense of what we are doing. Together with game changes that that's that's preparation. But to answer your question, plenty of shows wing it plenty of shows Go man, that'll do. Yeah, I think we're pretty close and Fingers crossed. Let's see if we can get that right. And that that can work if you're unbelievably talented. And then there are plenty, you know, probably eight times out of 10 where it's not going to go as well as you would like. Yeah. What do you think you guys have differing opinions when it comes to content?
It just in around game changes all I think like in in general
It like how shows are done? Are there certain things where it's like Jay does something very different to the way that Craig would do it? I've always been aligned with Jay. I think I mean, you,
you know, different producers do things differently in terms of the back end system process approach. But I mean, from the moment Jay came on board at SGI, it was just obvious that this guy knows what he's doing. So, you know, I don't think I've ever had a fundamental, good some people, I guess, some producers, maybe they lean on phone calls more or they lean on, like, you know, on air talent, they're being certain. Does everyone have a certain taste and flavour on the things that they said or what's in their toolkit? Some do? I mean, I think everybody's going to talk about it to continue the metaphor of various degrees and sizes and those sorts of things. But I always think that you've got to have multiple options. And for me, the, you know, the content getting back to your idea about planning.
If you are if you plan and you plan the effort
That is the thing I think you need to be most willing to do is to abandon the plan. And to go with where you're at at that moment, the best shows we had on the hot breakfast were the shows that we would get together five o'clock in the morning and go, Okay, this is what we think we're going to cover today. And by eight o'clock in the morning, we haven't done any of it, because a whole bunch of other things came up and we went in that direction. And I think a lot of times, you need to plan and you need to plan in a very flexible and fluid way that allows you to change directions when the moment calls for it. And callers, I think are a bonus. I don't think they should ever be the the primary focus of that piece of content. I think that if you know the callers are there and they contribute to it great. But otherwise, you know, everybody who's working on that show is responsible for the content. And I think that you make that plan and then you are willing to say okay, you know, we're at a different time now. We don't need to do that storey Yeah, we spent a day planning it. We spent
That time doing it, having the willingness to leave it out when the time comes, that I think is the most important aspect of planning. And it's the same way, if you're doing a presentation in front of a live audience, you can have something, you have to have that ability to read the room and to say, Okay, this is working or it isn't working. And what I have spent all this time developing, I'm not going to move past, I'm not going to spend two minutes on it. I'm going to touch on it in 20 seconds, and I'm going to move on, because that's what this audience needs. And I think that as long as you have the audience, right in the centre of your thought process, then your actions will follow. And then you will have the appearance of being well planned or have the appearance of being spontaneous. But it's about the audience and it's about what you want to give them in that moment. How do you remember about the audience when you in a studio?
I don't think you can never stop thinking about them. I mean, you have to get to a point you don't want to be so focused on
A particular person or that sort of thing, I mean, we had a triple m i remember when i started to triple m, we were told, okay, your audience is a guy. He lives about 45 minutes outside of Melbourne. He's got a commute every day. His primary focuses he wants to take his family on a domestic holiday. He wants to go somewhere with the kids. Anyone? Yeah.
You can even you know it for for some, it's, it's Wilson's prom, you know, it's those, like central family time with the kids getting away from suburban life, and getting out and spending time with family. And you know, we had that sort of research and so you would sort of think, okay, our goal was always what is that one guy when he gets to where he's going at the end of his commute? What is the thing that he's going to go share with the people he sees next? So we wanted to have content in the show, that when they get to where they're going to go, Hey, did you hear what Mike Malloy said? I'm on breakfast this morning. Did you
You hear what Eddie was talking about? Did you hear what Luke Darcy was talking about? Did you hear what Rosie was talking about? That for us was the win? unfortunate. There's no way to measure that. Yeah. You know, I mean, that's it's a very sort of nebulous space to be in, you want to have that content that somebody's gonna say, Hey, Josh, did you listen to hot breakfast this morning? And so if you're sad, I guess an executive producer is closer to the action there in that sort of thing. A content directors do inside the metro market? How close? Are they into the actual content? And how do you make sure that those things are happening? I look, I mean, the further away you can be the better, the more objective and dispassionate you can be. And looking, a lot of content directors think that and you know, we talked about it in the book that this idea of the amount of ideas that I generate for the show equates to, you know, the title that I have, and this is the work that I need to be doing but you know, shows like Eddie and I remember I was there I've told you guys but we had so we had these off air trials for me
This is 10 years ago, when the show started as a 10 years, it's almost 10 years now, just 10 years in September. So when we did the OFF AIR trials, we on the final day of the affair trials, we piped the show into the staff area. So the people in the office could hear the show to kind of just give them a sense of what was coming up on the Monday. So this is on the Friday, we've done our last
our last trial and that staff have heard the show is they would hear it on the Monday. And so the show finishes and and we get off the air and Eddie comes out of the studio and the sort of the staff gather around him.
It was just sort of one of these moments where he's kind of in a semi circle. It's almost like the coach of a football team, right? It's you know, three quarter time, triple ends at three share. We're getting our asses kicked how we turn this thing around. And he spoke for the next 1015 minutes with such absolute clarity and certainty around what the show would be from Monday and how it would sound what it wouldn't do this idea of I heard someone speak about it the other day, the
The process of elimination is a really good place to start in the creative process, you know, What don't we want to be? What are we going to do? What are the things that we're going to say no to.
And he was so clear and so descriptive on how the show would affect and perform for its audience. And you could hear this collective sigh of relief, you know, 2530 staff surrounding him looking at and going, Yeah, you've got a plan. Clearly, you've got a plan. So when you're an EP, or a content director of a show like that, you just get out of their way. You just go Okay, well, here's roughly the boundaries, you talking to roughly this person, we need you to play X number of songs. And now we didn't ever have any discussions with Eddie or Michael Luke around their content choices necessarily. It was more about where you were placing them. And, you know, we like to think if we could get the show on time, at the top of the hour, it meant that we were, you know, reasonably consistent throughout the course of the hour. So if we were running five minutes late, it meant that we were talking too much to add some basic things like that in place by
Here with great performance, you're you want to get to a point where the show has worked out its sense of itself. And then for you, it's really just a case of catching them when they're doing what they were planning on doing or designing to do you know what I mean? So that's that That to me is where you get that that great symbiotic role where a content director can just be it's a it's a strength replay, it's to come in at five past nine if it's a Breakfast Show and go that at a quarter past eight, and that's the show. And and if you can capture that and hear that, and and it, you know, for performers who are really talented, they can just take that information and go right, more of that. Listen this, how much is it spending time listening to your competitors? I guess that idea of the elimination game of we're not this, we're not that how much of it is okay? We're going to listen to everything to really understand what we want to do. I think in the early stages, it's good to get a sense of the market because you know, you do want to know if you heard the full podcast from yesterday, Tommy
The this idea of where are you positioned in the market is really important. So in, you know, where are you positioned in the context of your competitors. And I think Eddie talked about it when the hot breakfast started out, which was along the lines of what isn't happening on Melbourne radio that we can fill a gap for. And so yeah, you do need context and you need to go right. Well, you know, if we're going to be the comedy show in Melbourne, who are we competing against? Because if we're competing against Martin Malloy, we're going to hand it to it. So you know, let's not do that or Yeah, so you do have to have a sense of who you're up against. I think Jay switching between podcasting and radio, is it a different posture in regards to how you produce a little bit, I just want to get back to one of the things that I've never told Craig this but I was always told you need to listen to you need to know what everybody is doing. And when we started the hot breakfast, it was using Kate. It was Matt and Joe. It was
Chrissy and Jane were on as well when we started. And there were all these shows right?
I didn't listen to any of them. And people say, what do you think of what you think it meant? And Joe this morning, so you know what, I'm not sure it's a show for our audience. But you know, they seem to be doing good things because the ratings were indicating that they were doing good things, right.
I am of the belief that, you know, spend the time I need to know what's going on. I need to have an idea of what's happening out there. But I would much rather spend the time on my show, you know, an hour that I spend listening to somebody else's show is an hour that I'm not putting on to my show. And that is where my soul focuses.
Coming back into triple m to take over and produce Kennedy Malloy and, and work on making James show.
I haven't listened to QZ in it. I haven't listened to Kate, Tim and Marty. I haven't listened to any of the other shows that are out there. Maybe that's a negative. I don't know. Maybe we'd be better if I did not. I doubt it. Yeah, you know, and because I think that we've got a limited amount of energy and time and I want to
Everything I've got into that show that one particular thing in regards to podcasting, it's, it's interesting because I think that you again, you don't have a real sense of the audience while you're starting, you get the audience after you started to put things out. So you're creating a whole bunch of things where you can go, Okay, well, who do we think is going to listen to this? You know, who did we think was going to listen to game changers when we started people who are new in their careers, you know, but what we found out is you have there are people who are new in their careers or people who are already established in their careers. And then there are people who are just fans of the people who we are talking to. And so, before that, though, you don't know that you don't know until you already you make it. And then you put it out there. And you go, Well, here it is. This is the podcast, and then you get the feedback. And then you understand, okay, who's listening and even then the metrics on on podcasting are, you know, they're not great. It's it's not a huge deep dive.
into it. You can tell what sort of device are listening on what part of the world they're listening in, and a few other little, you know, demographic information, but you're not getting the real detailed information unless they are actively connecting with you. I tried you in your talk women talking about which resonated with me the broadcast narrowcast. Yeah, and I think Josh and I've spoken about this a lot.
For creators, they can be
quite a, you know, like, they could think they can't find a narrow thing to cast if that's, you know,
not find the name, right. Because it's it's almost like paralysing, yeah. Trying to get I'm actually into that. And so for Josh and I, we, you could say broadcast, we went broad, we created a show that we really enjoy doing every single day. And lately we've been thinking, Man, like if we win, win, meaning grow this huge audience from doing the thing, the show that we wanted, we which went a bit broader, I'd be more satisfied.
than that, then doing a show which was super narrow. Yeah. And so it plays into you start by casting it quite broad, and then slowly narrowing in what have been the learnings coming from radio where it is a broad cast, but then you've identified the audience to really having to work it out from scratch. You said the feedback process. What else can you do to really understand who you're speaking to? Well, I think again, with with podcasting, most people are doing a podcast, they are doing something that they're really into. You guys are doing the daily talk show. Excuse me, I've got a cough this week.
You guys are doing the daily talk show because he, it scratches your edges. It's something you want to do. It is something that you're into. And you are. I'm presuming hopeful that your enthusiasm for the project is going to capture your audience. And they're going to resonate with and they're going to connect with it. It's going to provide value to them. And I think with podcast
Everything that we do now is transactional, whether it's time or money, or attention. And so what you're ultimately doing is you're saying, okay, we're going to make this show on the basis that we are going to provide value to you.
Over the 45 minutes or an hour that you're going to listen to us. You're going to get something out of it that you can then put into your day, whether it's entertainment information, or a connection on some level. And that's what I think the the podcasting does is allows you to Okay, hey, we've made this. We're going to give it to you because we think it's going to add to your experience. Well, I mean, we get a email from Troy, Troy Jones, was it? Yeah, he's a farmer up in Queensland, and he drives the tractor and he listens to us every single day here, right? Fucking blew my mind. Yeah, I just I miss the one. What an amazing sort of thing you're doing and we're keeping your company then we've got the doctor in Princeton. Yeah, they're Yeah, they're working on all
This technology so like we've got, yeah, there is that interesting sort of spectrum that you started. I think for you guys, it's that the format is, is the daily elements. And the unique point of differences is that I mean, there might be other daily podcasts happening in Australia, but none that have done 500 in a row. And so I think that is the point of difference and that that's the mimic of radio, which is the fact that you're there every day for this audience and you clearly you will build a relationship and rapport with the audience and they'll sort of grow with you. And then I think you've got this kind of like minded
group of friends and I A through line in terms of the style of people that you talk to and the kinds of conversations you're having, which is you know, one of the things that some to someone about this the other day when you're in a corporation when you're working for a company, you don't get to choose the people that you collaborate with. But, you know, one of the great things for me having, you know, been away from the day to day of corporate radio is that I get to work with people like Jay who you know,
We share very similar values you met Kate made a friend, a couple of weeks ago, Kate's going to help us with the live events, Kate shares our values. So you get to pick and choose these things. And from a podcast perspective, you know, I get a sense that the people you have on this show are, you don't all think the same, that would be boring, but there's a there's, there's a value proposition there in terms of the kinds of people you want to talk to, and the sorts of experiences that they've had. And, and then you have those regulars that come back, you know, people like Jules and Craig and others that are a part of the show that really kind of anchor the show's tone and personality. So that to me is a format, and I think that a lot of podcasters podcasters. Turn the mic on, talk for an hour, turn the mic off. And that's that and I think that what,
you know, every good podcast has is some kind of format, which you know, we understand from a radio perspective. And it's, you know, the format for game changes was it's a life in chronological order. So it
Career In, let's start with the first job and finish here. And and so, you know, we step that through that was the format. And whether people heard it that way or not, I'm not sure. But that was that was the format in my head I started at the start and I finished at the at where they're at right now and then all of the kind of the lessons and the different elements that work their way through. So I don't think enough podcasters do that sort of work, which is what happens at the start of the show. What do we do in the middle? What do we do at the end? Just some basic kind of formatting I think is really, really useful. without missing a seven, he's our producer. It's his first ever producing job he, how many months did you do at marketing school in uni?
About six months? Okay, yeah. And then he ended up leaving and so he's come on board. He's worked full time here. What are some questions that you would ask Mr. 97, to get a sense of where we're going and sort of coaching us from a show perspective through through the lens
him, he's actually just run off.
I guess the, you know, when
in dealing with talent, right?
I always want to know that
you don't have to force, there's no point forcing you to talk about something that you have no interest in whatsoever. So I think the thing is, is to know, have a real solid understanding of what motivates Josh, what motivates Tommy, how you can then find the, you know, if there was a Venn diagram of the two of you, where's the overlap? What What is the content that that fits into that space that both of them are going to go, I can get into that, or something that you know, Josh is going to be really into Tommy isn't going to know anything about it. So he can just ask questions and bounce off of that.
But also, you know, knowing
what it is that they're into, and so, you know, what can you tell me about their interests? Then what can you tell me about what
gets them interested in doing the show. Because it's, I don't think shows that are successful ever work by the producers saying this is the storey you're going to do is the playbook. Yeah. Yeah, it's interesting. I think the other thing too, is like, we're taking that modern approach to a producer, where he's at the start of his career. And so a lot of it is the day to day getting the show going, and all that sort of thing. And we want to say over the 10 years that we're doing the show, that it evolves into that real EP type of type of role to those habits start by literally creating a list. It could be just a private list. Yeah. Yes. Josh ship. What is that certainly in terms of roles and you know, definition around who's doing one on day to day basis, but that concept of you know, I'm sure and you know, we saw we were lucky enough to see how much Nadia up closer for over a number of years.
And you know, they were the benchmark for communication off the year. Coming
On the the two go hand in hand the teams that talk more about what they're doing, and that this is not just radio podcasting. So I'm assuming this would be any team sport, the more you're talking about
the the format of whatever it is that you're trying to create, the closer you're going to get to delivering it in a way that's, you know, clear in your head. So yeah, I think it's that just constant ongoing conversation around how do we make this thing better? And where are we, you know, what are we learning on? What are we what are we improving in every day? And and if if he's in on those conversations, the more he knows, the more he can help you from a producing perspective. Sorry, I was just gonna ask Mr. 97 a question, which is that Do you know what Josh and Tommy's goal is for this show?
they they want to build
a sort of an audience around the ideas and the values and interests that they have. So it's a cult they want to create
But I think I think I think Tommy and Josh see an importance of bringing people along on a journey of their, through their daily life. And I think instead of focusing on stuff that's happening in the news, focusing on stuff that's relevant to them and things that they love, and bringing the audience in on that is super important. Well, that's it, and how often are you having conversations with them about where, where they're at? Because I mean, this, I remember, I knew that you guys were doing the daily talk show and I knew every little bit that was happening, and then I came in to see the office and visit and sat down and just told me now this is part of a 10 year plan we're doing we are doing this for 10 years, and it blew me away.
How do you have those conversations we you know, and do you have those conversations with your Hey, you know what? Obviously you're you're not as into it today, as you have then how do you
Talk to them about those sorts of things. Yeah, sure. Well, I think I think that's an area where I'm just starting to move into. So Josh was mentioning where like in the day to day sort of stuff at the moment. So that's, I think one of the next progressions but there, there is the sort of checking in, in terms of what's going on. But yeah, that's probably the next step. How do you die as someone who's started and you know, great, build your way up to, you know, quite high in the producing world? How do you encourage a young person to feel uncomfortable, but have the conversations like how do you get through that? I think the, the thing is, is that, you know, we're working with people, and we're trying to build relationships.
Your show is going to be as strong as your best relationships. And you know, you have to have good relationships doesn't mean you have to be friends with with everybody and do everything together. But it means you have to understand what Josh is going through what Tommy is going through, but also have a real awareness of what your
You're going through, you know, you have to have that ability to go yo K, but this is where I'm at right now. You know what's gonna happen to Mr. 97? When he decided six years in, you know what I've done six years, and I now have this other show that I want to do. I can't wait called.
We follow you
as well, so we can get away with it.
It's a good question, though, Tommy because, you know, no one likes confrontation. No one likes to tell. Yeah, you know, and in a situation where you're running your own race, you know, where are you getting feedback from and where are you you know, you do need objective views and and you know, who's playing that role? And certainly for a young producer starting out, most young producers will find themselves in a situation where just based on the age gap, you know, you deal if you're working in a metro environment, you know, you've got a 2627 year old producer dealing with a 38 to 45 year old co host and he's
You mentioned the status of them.
Yeah. So if you've got people like Eddie, who's doing the guy who's doing the presentation, doing all that sort of thing, I think that adds the extra level which is like, like the point around Jackie O these, these people are actually the EP within their shows. Yeah. But I think you can build respect up over time and do the work to get to a point where you're valued within the team. And that value will then feed into your view and perspective on how the show is sounding when Sarah fails. A great example of that Sarah was worked with Jay on any show, and she was just so brilliant at it. He had like, how would she have been 20s? Late 20s, early 30s. She's in her 30s now Yeah, and just so brilliant at a job and so efficient and just an awesome team member and I'm sure she was brought in on conversations around Okay, well, what are we doing and where are we where we're at? Because that relationship and building been built up over time. Absolutely. And I think with
Dealing with with people.
Ask them how they want to be dealt with. Yeah. You know, I mean, Josh may have the ability to take things. You seem like a guy that if you and I need to have conversation, we could just cut out any of the fluff. I just have a very direct conversation that requires yes or no answers both ways. And that'd be that'd be fine. That wouldn't need to be any emotional connection or anything of it at all. It would just be. Here's the situation. This is what we're going to do to fix it. This is how we're gonna move on. Is that accurate? Yeah. Yeah. And you've missed the passing of the shelter.
Yeah, I think I'm a I'm a big baby who, but also that likes to go deep and have the conversation and realising Tommy's always talks about like, I'm a dock connector as well. So I'll connect the dots. I'll say yeah, hey, there's these six. Other I'm keeping score, but definitely, it's like, the six things happened. I probably wait until that point where I'm like, Okay, I'm here. This is what we're
This is what we're talking about positive affirmation, but also Yeah, and I like that conversation and we be able to have just just sitting here was I feel like with Tommy if we're going to feel like, hey, let's go for a walk. Let's Let's go walk down the street because I feel like that's, I don't know. I have no idea of that. Yeah, we're gonna get a coffee coffee's good. Yeah, exactly. So we're just
takes time like we're gonna do a runner. Everyone takes time, like processing wise takes time to ride. So like, I think that the dynamic of God is really interesting. It's something that's been an important part of a lot of radio shows. From your perspective, doing the partnership. What I'm interested in is the with the game changes. You hit Episode 100 Yep, there's a decision made. This is how I played it. I love type creating storeys in my head.
Craig sort of a bit done with it, but JC is up at potential opportunities. They've got a book. Yeah. Finally, they like Jay brings a great case together. You have a bunch
Team discussions. It's like we're doing this together as a team. And then you guys put together the book and then the event starts you know you find that new group and so doesn't have to be fucking podcast. Let's do the events. Let's make that a thing. Yeah. I love creating good fucking storey. Yeah, I was that one. Yeah. How was it? How was that one? Well look at the thing with the funny storey with the hundred episodes, and we've been sitting on 99 for a while. And I had been in conversations with been from Kevin and bean, Jane Baxter. It was a great chat By the way, I went down a rabbit hole of listening to them. He's a lovely, lovely man. Now the amazing guy, just the annoying thing is I find out when she says fuck yeah, he's heading back to the UK. So we had I'd been in conversation with him for ages six months, sort of and just, you know, not not harassing him but just going Hey, whenever you want to come on and, and and I'm in a meeting and someone had asked me about the podcast and I said, Well, I'm sitting on 99. I'm going to do 100 I just needed I need a good way to finish it at 100 and within 30 seconds
After I'm telling you within 30 seconds after me saying that beans text message I'm ready to go. So freaky. Anyway, so we do that. Here's the thing with the podcast that I would do, I would do it every day if I had a listers to talk to every day. And so the the initial three the first three years where we talked to Eddie and hey mission, Denton and Kyle and we pretty well ticked every every name that was on that initial list we got through and then some and that was the promise of the podcast, which is, you know, really successful presenters. When you hear them on the radio, how did they get to become so good? That's the essence of it. Right? And I just wanted to understand what what makes you really good at your job.
And, and as soon as we started going down that list, what was the next 40 interviews from 60 to 100 was brilliant in various different Tommy and Josh on a podcast.
But I didn't want it to be a generic Radio Podcast, I wanted it to be, you know, a kind of an event every time. You know, we turn the mics on. So I ran out of people. It's finite. I guess that's one of the interesting things. There's a great book finite and infinite games. And Simon cynics got a book infinite game, which is sort of a take on that one. And it's, I think what we're trying to do is the infinite game. And so by doing some of the things mean, we're getting people on multiple times, like wanting to create a community. Yeah, exactly. But I guess there's the infinite game for you outside of the podcast, which is all these other things that why is it providing service to the radio industry? Yeah, well, that that's it and and so Jay had the idea for the book and had to really twist my arm on that because I just didn't think the world needed another radio, but we kind of made it more anecdotal and storytelling than than just a sort of standard. Hey, he's had to turn the mic on and he's had a, you know, turn your headphones on. It's more sort of storeys about what's obviously storeys from the podcast, and
So a little bit about me. And so so there's that. And I've always had the idea of the live event. So the podcast was based on the actors studio, which is that the show on I think it's still on Fox Hill somewhere. That concept of, you know, famous actor gets to talk about acting not about how many Instagram followers he or she has, it's nothing about pop culture or anything like that. It's just about the, the skill of acting in front of an actor studio, so young people who are learning so I love that concept. And so that's, to me, that was always sort of an angle, which is eventually to do that as a regular live event. Because for young people in Australia, I think my very good friend of mine has a radio school in Adelaide, but I think he's the last of the radio school. And you know, if you want to learn about radio, where do you go? I can tell you where you go. You listen to my podcast, because 90% of the feedback I would get from people is I don't, I wouldn't even know where to start, other than to listen to this podcast. So
We think there's an opportunity for it to be yes about broadcast but but about podcasting about how do you create something like what you guys have done and are doing, you know, talking to people like Kenya Hennessy and Rachel Corbett who's got the Mamma mia content role and just getting a broader sense of what does media look like and how what role can you play under the game changes banner so it's still about communication but I think that that in my head that's that's that's what I would like to do. You might remember we had a thing called the grad school. Yes, yeah. Yeah, actually thinking I wonder like, I wish there was a podcast around then there was nothing nothing you guys are still so we noted that point. Yeah. And so you know, it's as you get down the chain. I think podcasting is this funny one because radio you're working regional market you get paid a token amount, but it The money is the exchange and the responsibility that promise that you're making in your turn cuz you like this My job where is
The new landscape of like Josh and I, what we're doing, no one's paying us our paycheck. We're making our promises to ourselves, which I think people break promises to themselves much easier and quicker than they do to someone when you're having a job. What do you think the the sort of things you can take from the promises you make when you're employed by radio station, and sort of deploy them on a creative project that isn't being funded, that relies entirely on yourself. So it could be the structure of the way you're doing it, or the team dynamic that you have to form? What is something that you can take from the promises that we keep as an employee? And it's funny, I spoke to Joe about this the other day, I mean, the reality is that very few people. I mean, Jay is producing the podcast and has for the last four years Joe and his partner, Astrid. And their generosity has been extraordinary because when people hear the podcast, they just hear me and it's pretty
promoted my business and it's promoted you know my brand whatever you want to call if you want to use that word and Jays in the background and has never once said, you know this What's in it for me You guys are in the same situation as us we've we've shared one or two sponsorship checks in the fall
we will we'll be able to buy a dinner with the book
bank for checks.
we might make a little bit of money from not who not but we're not it's not a commercial exercise. So therefore what's in it for Jay and I said to him the other day I just can't find another couldn't think of another human being that would so generously just put me forward and help in it because none of it would have happened without giant asteroid. And now Kate's the same Kate metres is in that situation where she's going, this is really good work and I want to be involved in it. And so we haven't had any formal arrangements other than Jay like the initial idea and I guess
We trusted each other enough that for as long as we were both passionate about it, we would continue to do it. I had the UYDJ as well. I always wanted to do. I always wanted to do more. And I think that's something that, you know, you spend any amount of time with Eddie, and he will get you fired up to do as much
as he trademark.
Imagine the lawyers on that case rematching side, slider recorded,
be some sauna. Come and serve me with papers. So the thing with what, you know, why do we do this? So I mean, I had other things that I wanted to do that worked, you know, the triple m wasn't going to do them. They weren't going to do an NFL show necessarily, and they weren't going to do some of the other things that I wanted to explore. And also, you know, bed producers started out with I was doing media training. I was doing some voiceover.
I was doing a whole bunch of other little bits and pieces, and I needed to bring that in somewhere. So it was all consolidated and it had some structure around it because otherwise I would have just lost track with everything and not known but what am I doing little How do I do it and those sorts of things. And so
we started bad producer productions, which named it after Mike Malloy use always say to me, if something went wrong, whether it was my fault or not his fault, he would just look at me and he would say, That's bad producing.
And so I was like, well, that's, that's going to be the name of my company. You know, so bad producer productions was born out of that out of just the desire to do other little bits and pieces. And from that, you know, we started the Garret which is, you know, asked for hosts that podcast writers talking about their writing process. Craig was, you know, literally the first email that we received, you know, hi, congratulations side. I've got an idea for a podcast. We would love to be involved. You know,
All of those things, the thing that you know, what's in it for us is that it has forced me
to do the work. There's accountability there. So we started the company. We didn't have gear that we didn't have anything. And then we get the email from Craig. Hey, you want to do a podcast? Yeah, we do want to do a podcast and then we talked, we agreed we were going to do it. It's like, okay, now we have to buy gear. Now we've got to go, we actually have to go get this stuff. We actually have to go do these things.
And so with the book, you know, it, it dragged on, and I'm embarrassed that the book took as long as it did, because with the Garrett podcast, that's writers talking about the writing process, and I recorded like physically at the State Library recorded about 65 of those episodes. And I would have heard 50 of those people talk about that. If you think a book is going to take you a year plan on two years, because everything takes longer than you think it is going to take. And I would hear that and then I said to Craig when I said I've got this idea for a book, I think we can have it done by April. April came in when you know the we're not even anywhere near being done. I'm rewriting
Set gardens. And that was meant to happen. us we actually had it where Tommy a bunch of people came random will fill me me do it and what so thing that I secretly said to Mr. 97 I said night for Episode 500 I'm going to have it ready. Anyway, I tried on the weekend. I'm
to see this head for half a year.
Yeah, it takes a long time. So I can only imagine coming up with words. Well, so this this will get back to the question you asked about, you know, making the promises. And so eventually what happened there is just as agreeing with Craig, okay, we're going to do your podcast, and we're going to do this together, forced us to go out and get the gear, do all these different things.
writing the book forced us to do a whole bunch of things, but then looking at it going okay, how are we going to sell this thing? How are we going to do this? How are we actually going to get it out there? And I always had it in my my head that, you know, the podcast would be continuing and I can still remember you talked about the conversation.
The conversation was we had a conference call on what's next? What's the status of the book where things going to go? And it's me and it's Kate Mead, who was a force of nature. By the way, Craig was so impressive by the way it puts us to shine because she sends these really eloquent great a mouse, really thoughtful. But then we all panic is like now we're going to come back with something thoughtful. And so and then yeah, we always get back. She also sends me times that you go, should I be working at nine o'clock?
This arrived to my inbox.
But I remember when we started it and Kirk's like, Okay, guys, before we go,
Episode 100 it's gonna be the last episode. And I'm just like, and I remember writing on my notes, shit book, exclamation point. Let's just like,
Well, we've gotta you know, we gotta sell this, but, you know, it actually all worked out because then that forced us to go okay. podcasters wrapping up. What do we do? All right, commercial radio awards is happening. There's an audience there that we think he's listening to this
podcast. So can we get in front of them? And then we work backwards from then. Okay, if we want to sell the book up to that week, when does it need to be available? All right, if we it needs to be available on that date, how long does it take to have it edited? So we hired an editor, a woman named Lorna Hendry, who was fantastic. I did a great job on the book. And, you know, she needed like three weeks or a month or something like that. They were like, okay, in order to get to that point, how much time do we need for Craig to review it for me to review it to make changes again, and then suddenly was like, Okay, great. Now we actually have some serious deadlines. And the fact that we are now going into this thing, we're hiring a professional, we're giving a date to commercial radio Australia, suddenly we have promises that we've made to each other, but now we're involving other people who we are now accountable for. And I think that how do you keep promises in that, that space? It's just, you know, who are you accountable to? Because I know that if I'm accountable to just me, good luck.
any of this stuff, you know, I'm the kind of guy I want to do, I want to be fit and healthy and learn and do all these things by never leaving my couch. You know, I want to produce podcasts and radio shows and do that stuff by just absolutely not having to leave my apartment. You know, I want all of those things without having to do any of the work.
And it doesn't work that way. You have to get them you have to get out there and do it. So you got to have accountability on some level. Because if it's just up to me, none of this stuff is happening. Was that the appeal because I feel like I've definitely done a lot in my career and I've was this catching up with a friend last week where it sort of this cycle love being an employee and then being like, fuck it, I'm going to go out on my own and then if you want a good wicked or a good opportunity comes up. It is a hard road doing the self employed sort of thing. What is your thoughts on
being self employed versus working for business? Well, it depends.
On, I think what is what's your main motivation. And I remember it'd be about six years ago now.
And I was driving with fixie from triple M. Down to see Eddie, for a meeting before the year started, and he said, you know, what, what's your plan? What do you want to do? And I remember my plan at the time. And it's still my plan is I want to work on good project with good people. That's it. I want to work on things if you will go, you know what, this is a good idea. So whether or not it's the game changers of the Garret or the greatest season that was or team effort or any of those things.
I want to work with the people I want to work with now. Can I do that on my own and pay my rent, pay my mortgage,
pay for my things, you know, for the family and all that sort of stuff? Or can I do that with other people? And this is another thing that I learned from it. You know, if you can do it for multiple people,
Go for it you know it is certainly easier to have a big company like Southern Cross a stereo paying your wage
that comes with compromises and it comes with you know forced collaboration on things that you know they may not be the thing that drives you but it certainly takes that pressure off of you but at the same time no pressures pressures okay i mean if you've got to go out and sell it to make a living and to feed your family will nothing wrong with that Craig You are a winner one of the top jobs in radio earning some good coin good coin was it
was it was money on your mind then? Like then then that Yeah, you're getting the paycheck. Are you thinking like, No, I'm in this for the money or you just never know, because it doesn't.
You can you can make a lot of money and you will pay a price in that role. I mean, I you know, you get to the end of a 70
workweek and you've had some, you know, serious conversations with CEOs and content directors. And, you know, I was never going to where the good news was happening, I was going to where the fires were. So it's the money didn't make me feel any better about the work and and I, you know, I quickly got to and it's it's funny you kind of
it's nice to go through that experience of earning a lot of money and realising it doesn't actually make any difference at all to your stove happiness or, or your sense of worth it. It really does and it lasts for about five minutes and then and then you kind of move on. So it's never ever been a motivator
and and certainly it wasn't at that time.
Well, I think um, what about early dies? Like I think most people are concerned about how much money
yeah, I get it, but like is what's our relationship with money like I think for us, it's
not paying ourselves much for
Essentially, a bigger payday at some point, right? So it's investing in this thing that may be that, you know, I don't know if that's a positive way of looking at it. Like what when we get to that point when we start making that, what does that mean for a show? I guess we the way that we rationalise money is we think okay, for Metro Radio persons making, let's just say 800,000 a year or whatever you have breakfast on on air. We could run it our entire business on 800 K, pay us okay, have a store that sort of thing. Have a team? Yeah. And nothing crazy like just being able to pull in 100 grand a year or whatever and be pretty happy be able to buy applies. What What's your thoughts on it? Jay? How much are you thinking about that sort of stuff?
a relationship with money that I think is in some ways really positive and then I don't worry about it all that much because I always
Feel like no matter what, I'm going to work, yeah, you're going to work and whether that is doing the things that I want to do podcasts and writing and, you know, producing different pieces of content or, you know, going to get a job somewhere to pay the bills. So I've just always looked at it and go, Okay, this didn't work out or that doesn't work out. I mean, I left. I left the Fox TV network at the age of 30. to come here and paint houses and fences in Australia. It didn't use a lot. Is that two
quarters fine. And so you know what I mean, I didn't have anything lined up and then did work experience at three w for a month and then had a part time job answering phones for Neil Mitchell and in the mornings and then would go in the afternoons and do these painting gigs all over Melbourne, you know, so there's people who have really poor paint jobs.
Because I had no idea what I was doing but I mean, that's so I just always look at me go okay.
If you're taking a chance
For the money, you just have to ask yourself, Well, what, why? And there could be a very good reason that you are taking that job for the money and you know, more power to you. And that is what you have to do.
There's nothing wrong with that. But if you are in a position where you can say, you know what, I'm taking this job because I want to do this work, I want to do this work. And I would be doing this work whether or not there was a paycheck attached to it or not.
You guys are doing this. You've made a commitment to do it for 10 years. Okay? If it gets to a point where you're having to record this not in a great studio, but you've got to record it in a second bedroom liquid Yeah, you know, because things the runway, and we fucked it up. Yeah.
Are you still gonna
be constantly talking about which is like, if it was the worst, the worst case scenario is that we're working for other people and we every evening it like, we
We did that for a long time where we recorded late at night or things like that, but does I guess I have like a romanticism to idleness is part of me which I have this dream of. I went to Stanley in Tasmania once and I've got this sort of warped perception of what it's like as people have written in saying it's actually a bit of a dump. But But I remember being really so like, like, it was a nature sort of thing and there's like the what is it called the not the not is like the nuts where you walk around. So I had this vision of at some point bank like whatever the new technologies where it's like, is dn line on steroids type of thing where you can get a really good camera, you can do the show and then throughout the day you like walk around Yeah.
Yeah, so I've got that like vision in my mind, but then my girlfriend Bry always says what you haven't mentioned me in the plan.
She's like, I think that'd be fucking bored. Like, do you think you'd be a bit boring? Do you guys do you guys lean towards of romanticise idleness? No, not
But not for me I love I love working always have and I love
feeling needed by someone it's a it's a very primal tribal thing that you know the
that and certainly in the role that I was in previously there ca when you're in the centre and people there are so many people that need you for various different reasons I you know I took a lot from that so and now yes I'm it's you know the more shows I can help more people I can mentor the more teams I can get involved with the better I'd rather I you know it's I don't feel like I'm any closer to my brain slowing down in that respect. Well thank you. Is it at home are you like have you got a nice space at home where you do it all law? Yeah, I move around a bit. I mean, I work out of coffee shops a lot. Sometimes I just like the ambient noise in the background or headphones in and get into it. But yeah, I for me, my goodness.
For me is getting five or six calls from people either asking for help or can you listen to the song, I need some advice on X that That to me is where I really like to play. And and building those relationships to a point where I feel like I've got a, you know, really strong trust with either with the the presenters on the year or the content directors that for me is is you know what it's all about while we're talking money. carlon Jackie? Oh, yeah. just signed one of the biggest deals in radio history, the biggest deal? How much was that? I think it was 13. I'll say there was saying 39. Well, as you talked about the Bruno, but then I saw in the
storey in the paper, but yeah, so this is a technical term is it's a lot. It's a shitload of money. Yeah. So I really need she said what it looks like.
For most people that aren't in radius circles, they're not in the bubble. They live in Sydney or they in Melbourne, they hear that and they worth it. Well, I mean, the question would be with it, and I don't know the specific numbers of
of, of where today FM is that right now from a revenue perspective, but let's say it was earning 50 million a year in revenue 10 years ago, and it might be earning, I don't know, maybe 12 to 15. Now, possibly. So that's a $40 million difference that money's on kiss now. So let's assume when the day before carlon jack started at kiss, they were MCs and they had been mix FM for 10 years and they had been a three share for 10 years much the same whether two days now on the fours and fives.
So mix may have been making 10,000,012 million, then they would be turning over close to 50. So over five years, it's 200 million. You've got to give it to the talent. It's worth every cent and what it does it It also guarantees that there is no there's no possible I can't think of a world where today or Nova can get around carlon jack whilst they remain strong and healthy and committed to each other. That that audiences absolutely right.
it on in the same way that that 38% of Trumps voting audiences roster no matter what they did or what they said they're they're in for the long haul and and so when you get to that point where you have a relationship with an audience that is so so deep and and it drives a revenue number that yeah as i said i'm guessing on what those numbers are, but they you know it's it's they're essentially sharing maybe one out of every three revenue dollars with college jack I mean we Josh and I driving in Sydney along the highway last Monday. Yeah. And I you know, we'd heard news that this $50 million, or whatever it is, and then you see a billboard from Southern Cross Hello stereo life and wake up with music for breakfast. Yeah.
Yeah, yeah, it's a complete shift in Yeah, like I guess strategy because everything if you think about how talented Yeah, it's been hard calls to make that's very hard. Yeah. Shift and someone has to be behind it. Do we think that the if we look at like the future of media, you say that
Success of what shameless have done with their podcast and, you know, two girls who have just built something from from nothing. Yeah. Not with the help of, you know, like the mama Mae is all the biggest sort of networks. Do we think that the future will? Where do we think that it's going to sit in relation to big media versus the smaller up and comers but I mean, it looks like big media is running at 100 mile miles an hour podcasting in various different forms from Spotify to Apple to all of the big radio companies here and I heard in the US and it makes perfect sense and and clearly they're seeing what whatever data is coming out of, you know, the consumer research is the point I made in Brisbane the other week, we are living in an narrowcast world and you know, you get to choose exactly what you want to listen to when you want to listen to it and and media companies, radio companies assume that
Because they can make radio, they can make podcasts and, you know, they certainly in the box seat to be able to do that. And the various companies here in Australia sort of
tooling up to prepare for what's coming down the track. So yeah, I but I think that for every, you know, successful SEO Nova partnership podcast, they will be the ones that breakthrough on their own. And I think that's the beauty of it, it's, you can come at it from a whole bunch of different directions. You don't have to align yourself with a company. You know, you've got to have the talent and you've got to have the idea and you've got to commit to the work. I mean, let's not easy.
Yeah, all of that there. But But if you have or if you take those three boxes, and you commit to it, and you're consistent, and you do 500 shows in a row and all of those sorts of things, then you've got a chance. You know, 10 years ago, you had no chance there was no microphone, there was no audience unless you are aligned with a major media company. And so I just think it might
The world so much more interesting. And there's no one better way I don't think is, you know, it's not like you you're destined to have to work for an STI or an over or an IRN partnership at some point, you can do it whatever way you want to do it. And I think that is the the generation that has grown up, you know, the digital natives, right? YouTube and streaming and Twitch and all of these things that is in their DNA. As they start to get the jobs in the agencies, then you'll really start to see Well, where is this going to play out? Yeah. Because right now there are the there are the success storeys like shameless. And there's the success storeys like Bill Simmons and the ringer, and there is you know, then there are the CA's of the world and podcast ones and all of these companies that are still going to try to find a way to remain relevant and to remain competitive in a market that is getting more and more competitive and is leaning more and more towards the audience having a lot of saying in who gets pushed to the top. So right now you got Kyle and Jackie O is the
is the highest paid radio programme in Australia? You know, in 20 years time, when somebody who's running an agency is willing to start, you know, looking at paying comparable rates to a podcaster, or to a YouTuber or something along those lines, then you'll start to see Well, okay, how does this really start to shake out? Because right now, I think that the thing that's holding back podcast is agencies are expecting radio numbers. And they're expecting that same return on investment that doesn't exist in the podcasting world. At this point, it does for some,
but not for not for everybody. Because I think that it is still new and developing. And so people who are making the decisions of where we're going to spend our advertising dollar, they don't quite get it at this point, or haven't looked at it in a new way. And I think until you get people in positions that are able to make those decisions and go Okay, now actually, we understand what the daily talk show is doing. We understand why they're doing it who their audience is.
We will event invest accordingly. Because right now I think if you opened up the daily talk show to agencies and say, Hey, we're open for business, have your clients come to us and brokers the cost per thousand they're going to offer you is probably going to be pretty low. Yeah, I would think and sometimes shockingly low, you know, and we've had those conversations with game changes and things and even like for us we tried to take CPM off complete like try not to make it part of the conversation this is a brand play more than that with a different type of audience. I mean, if you were to call bullshit on what Tommy and I doing in regards to I guess our perspective is on me walked around the block
from three corner
if we thinking about So what are some of the objections Tommy that we have from going to one of the bigger networks as far as partnering or as inside like, say if podcast one was to say, Hey, here's a chunk of cash. come on board to you.
I just think the exchange of money isn't of the value that we think we're working towards. And so whatever money independence was, I give a bunch of cash, I guess like part of it for me, where I think of it is what independence gives us as our independence in regards to saying shit that might not go down well within the organisation nor setting not being, I guess if we're playing the infinite game rather than the finite game. We're not being compared in regards to like, I think about regional radio, I think like cape meat is a great example of someone who's pushing the boundaries where she was able to go to the US from a regional credit, but I always talk to Tommy about like, the shit that we're doing the processes for him to get that through on a shepherd in market and would have been really hard. Absolutely. And so part of it is like we don't want to be compared to if we say if we went into a network, it's like, Okay, how we
Comparing to HNA. How are you comparing to these three other shows that we have? Yeah. How, if you were to call bullshit on it, and to the other side of the coin saying, Hey, this is this is why you should be looking at a network, this is what they could bring. What do you think that would be? I would think that, you know, right now you're placing a higher value on independence and creative control on your product, then you are a financial value, right? But I would think that, you know, if you were to go with an SCA,
you have the studio availability, but you guys have that you have, you know, video availability of the audio availability of production capability, you've got everything that SCA can offer in that space. But the thing that these other big companies can offer you is the human resources, you know, the the absolute number of people who could then be dedicated to putting your show out there. The health pay that's it.
Promotion the promotion yeah that's the thing you've got a you you've got a small audience that knows you and a large audience who doesn't and and if mainstream media was to come to you and say hey what do you podcast? No Holds Barred do it as you are we're not we're not you know and I think podcast one would that's a conversation they could have with you which is you do the podcast exactly the way you want. And by the way come and do Saturday and Sunday mornings and will expose you to a half a million national audience every week and will promote the podcast through that national audience. Then Then you it's probably a conversation with having you think networks have learnt from like the agent like I remember being at Fox and saying like the conversations around Hamish and Andy it's sort of like our I remember the radio station constantly having their hands tied around what they could do from the digital assets point of view. Yeah, and I remember taking away from that, if I was to ever do anything, I love that they've got control that the GD think that networks have gotten savvy to this if I hang on if we don't own this shit. We
How do we are we don't own anything? Yeah, um it depends on the show I mean that you know Hamish and Andy brought an audience Colin jack bring an audience so they are in the content there would be some other shows in them in around Australia I'm not sure which ones but they would be ownership of content with some just based on the fact that it's it's a fight worth having but it's not a fight worth losing. You're not going to lose a militia God or Tim Blackwell or Hamish and Andy over over content rights. I would think it's certainly that was the case five years ago, it's just not the risk isn't worth taking. It's a new shows, maybe in one show, they're gonna spend millions of dollars on advertising you make Yeah, they're the ones that are going to be owned by.
Does Yeah, there's there's a relationship there that I think that you know, the heavy lifting is being done by the company and there are plenty of you know, all three radio companies have had their own success in terms of developing shows and developing, you know, people as as brands and and, you know, yes, there is success on both sides in that equation.
But, you know, these companies, they invest a lot in marketing in the resource and support and all of the things that you need that you know, you guys are having to do that on your own. And yet it does change the game. So game changes you bought
on Amazon. It's called is it Kindle? So ESPN, you know, the Kindle app is free. So you can put that on any device and read the book, but it's available on Amazon right now. And so chapters wise, have you got a favourite chapter out of the book? I think it's funny. I there's a video posted today just about was that okay? Which is a conversation that is funny.
In the early stages of the podcast, we would do the interview and take the headphones off and the person on the other side of the desk would say to me, hey, yeah, that was great. That was that, okay. And I'm thinking, well, I've just been speaking at any McGuire for an hour and he's asking me whether that was okay. And it would happen more often than not, not all of them in it, but it would just reminded me that doesn't matter how you
Successful you look and how smart you might be and how funny you might be that there is still certainly for performers, there's a degree of uncertainty that that they deal with every day in that performance space. And understanding that I think, you know, certainly from a content directors perspective, and from a producers perspective, when you put yourself out there, even a comedic sense, particularly, you know, certainly in the radio sense, you know, you can do something funny on the air and have no idea whether it worked or not. I remember Matt Tilly saying on the podcast, you know, I still you know, I've been doing this for 20 years, I've been successful for 20 years, and I still come in every morning wondering whether the spot I've got locked in for 10 past eight, whether it's going to land or not, I just don't know. So I think that that it's funny I we posted the video yesterday and Tanya Hennessey replied, you know, saying that it kind of, you know, spoke to her and I think a lot of presenters are in that sort of constant space of my is this working
My doing is this really, you know, connecting in a way that I'm hoping it will. What's funny because I think we're getting a lot of feedback now. And feedback, meaning people just interacting. Yeah. And sometimes I feel like we're not at our best. And I'm like, Is this any good? doing your thing? Yeah. But obviously there is there's a feedback system happening, but it's counter to how I sometimes feel. Yeah. So then it's like, am I feeling they're incorrect all the time? Or when do I listen? Like, it feels like there's a bigger responsibility as podcasters rather than radio broadcast is maybe to do that, like I feel the pressure that we somehow creating our audience through the content that we make, versus I guess, if we were on a radio station, there's maybe there's an audience there that were there then performing for Yeah, rather than the music and a bunch of different reasons now, right. And then there's probably something in that that was that okay. I'm hoping that interview was what you wanted. And hopefully that's good content for your party. I say might be some of that, but I think
Also just a, just let me know just recognise did. How did that go? You're just want to cuddle
What about VJ? What was what was your? I think that the thing that we tried to do with the book was identify the themes that were consistent across all the different interviews that Craig did. And the one that that I really like is his own writing, and the importance of writing, because, you know, the biggest names in radio and the people who share their storey, they all talked about, you know, how they write and what they do, and I really love that because it's not the thing that you think of, when you think of radio, immediately you think of radio is, you know, microphones and talking. But so much of it is about what is written before the mics are turned on. And how that is used in the creative process. You know, just writing down ideas and those sorts of things. And so I really enjoyed revisiting those storeys. You know, and I love the you know, Tony and Mick in there.
Individual episodes, but both sharing the same sort of idea that, you know, they wrote and wrote and wrote and wrote in the days of Martin Lloyd.
to a point where, you know, people would turn up to see the show and, and I think that's telling us that, you know, it's just two guys sitting there reading out a spiral notebook notebooks.
And, you know, and you can do so much with the written word. And, ultimately, that's what we're in. We're, you know, we're in the game of telling storeys in a way that we think the audience is gonna like, and I think that, you know, the difference between radio and podcast, one of the great things about radio is that it's quick and it's temporary. You know, if you miss today's hot breakfast, tomorrow is going to be a new show. You can listen to that, and you get that there. If you miss. There will be people. I don't know who they're going to be. But there will be people who will go You know what, I'm going to listen to all 500 episodes of The Daily talk show, because they want to go back and they'll still discover it. People will discover Episode 100 tomorrow as you put out Episode 500
They won't even know that you've done 500 for some reason, they'll discover episode one or one or 78, or, you know, whatever. And I think that's the same way with podcasting is that these are not temporary things. Craig's interview with Christian O'Connell, and Sam, Kevin, and creativity, which I think is almost three years old now
will be as relevant next year, as it will be in five years. You know, so I think there's a timeless element of podcasting, which is very, very cool. What do we what do you think the misconception of everything that's happening right now what's like a common thing that you hear? And you just don't believe to be true? It may have even been something that you thought was true about right. Oh, yeah. about creating content about audience building about radio. And I think that there's a there's a an idea that it can happen quickly, and that you know, you can have success in a reasonably short amount of time. I noted
Young go Paris Humphrey I think her surname is has spent a couple of years in Tamworth was part of a radio school and Adelaide got her first job in breakfast radio and has had a couple of years in regional radio and is now taking a producer job at Jason PJ here in Melbourne. Great job, by the way, and, and Paris would be an early 20s really, really talented. And I don't know her, but I wonder whether she's had a couple of years in Tamworth and gone I don't know whether I can do this for the next eight years. Being in a regional market. I think I want to be closer to where the real world is and that's okay.
But I think there's certainly for young presenters that are starting out in radio and doing breakfast radio, you get better the older you get and and the ones that eventually make it are the ones that go the distance. So this assumption that you can go into a market any market and go right I've got a three year plan or a five year plan that it's just going to take it off the table.
Because it just it will happen in its own sweet time. And
yeah so I think that's probably me on the good ones make it look easy and then you forget about and one of the great things with the podcast every single successful presenter has had this really long and winding road that never ever looks as straight and as narrow as it does from the outside you know there's bumps along the way and you missed out on that job and I got sacked here and I've got back up and and and then we just see them on a billboard and listen to them at seven o'clock in the morning they're halfway to this but you know the the the sacrifice and the effort and you know spending years in regional markets you know what that's like, Tommy it's really hard. You can't wait what does the end look like you
say? Yeah, so yeah, enjoy watching like a ring error and seeing what they they were building. Were you surprised at how slow from a podcasting point of view you doing your stuff? It is taking to build it to
Time, and I think that's the thing, you know, what do I think? There's no formula. And there's no hack, you know, there's no creativity for content hack, right? It gives you have to do it. If you're going to produce, you know, Mr. 97 is going to edit this podcast, right? There's no hack for him to do that. There's no AI not yet. Anyway, that's going to be able to do that, not what he wants.
he's gonna have to sit down and do that, you know, and there's no, you know, this episode took time to sit down and record, right. So there's no hack. There's no shortcut. And there's no, no, nothing gets done, whether it's radio, podcast and TV or anything without a lot of hard work, and the ability to work with other people. And those are the things that I think
we get lulled into this idea that we're going to be the next influencer, whoever it's going to be because I'm going to, you know, do all these things. Well, you know, the people that you see
You consider a successful influencer, if get teams of people around them, they're not doing those things just on their own. You know, there are people who do manage it. And there are people who do working together. You know, you mentioned shameless, right. Like, that's a small team. It's a small, you know, couple of people, right. And Genevieve, di, their manager does a lot of the, you know, connecting with Brian Yeah. And and, you know, eventually when they, when they get to that level of your ability to work with other people is going to be crucial. Whether it's in digital space, or virtual space or in real space. You have to be able to work with other people. And that's going to be the key to I think, whatever you're going to create, wherever that's going to be whether or not it's going to have any impact on other people's lives. When do you know to quit?
That's a great question. We we tossed a well I toss that around for a while with the game changers podcast and getting to 100 and you know, we had a really we have a really strong audience. We've got a great subscriber base, all of the things that you work really hard for, we ended up with them.
And so for me as a performer, I just thought I'm not gonna be able to make the quality of content that I have previously.
So that was my that was my point where I knew that I had to I had to either find a another iteration of game changes, which we've thankfully started to move towards. And, you know, we had a conversation today, we might be able to reconnect to the podcast in a way that is slightly different to what we did previously, but just with some different approaches, but yeah, that was, but it would have been easy just to continue to roll out episodes, but not really deliver on the initial promise, which is he's the best I can find and I want to find out everything I can about them. So as much as you know, when you have an audience and they're expecting a product from you, it's really hard to walk away from but I think we did the right thing at that moment. Do you think it's intoxicating? I guess there's something about starting and launching something just as intoxicating about finishing up like I know that
the announcement so I know like
Episode 500 was our final show the energy that it would give us that sort of thing? Like, did you find that? It was exciting, finishing up? And then everyone moves? moves on with their life? Yeah, yeah. And I have this podcast, we kind of moved from series. So we had series in the early stages, and then we moved to weekly, and we kind of didn't really have a set sort of timing issue that you guys, you know, you're making a daily commitment. So we sort of ended up, you know, easing our way out of that, you know, expectation that the audience was going to get some product every, every couple of days.
To a degree, there was a sense of that's done as about as much as I can do with the kind of raw material that I had to work with, which is the best of the best. I mean, that'd be 30 people I would talk to for the podcast, but I'm not, you know, I've already put those feelers out and some will say yes, and some will say no, so
yeah, so there was a sense of Okay, that's done. You know, I can start worrying about other things, but I
I mean, I like that I want to move it away from radio as much as I can as well as much as we've talked about that over the last hour and a half radio but I'm what is the next thing then if it is, in general, just content in general. I mean, I think content storytelling, I wanted, I just I'm interested in why people want to express themselves and how they do it and how they do it in a way that's really effective and the storeys behind that, and I'm not sure I don't know what that looks like. I'm just not that I'm interested in that. So I'll sort of chase that wherever that might be. some reason I got a vision of you speaking at Google, yeah.
The content Yeah. Go tight turtleneck, like
in this statement,
just before you go podcast that you're listening to any video outside of what you create, that you enjoy, and like Scott Galloway, I think is the most talented podcaster in the world at the moment. What's
Scott Galloway is on a show with.
Pivot is the name of the show with. It's a tech show. And he's, he's a professor at one of the universities in New York, and he's as sharp as he's got a book called The four, which is the inner workings, if you read it. Yeah, the audiobook. Yes. Scott Galloway, I prefer ours. The other one prefer ours. podcast, which is called
coming up, I think it's called.
They stay true. Free Ferrara was the head of the Southern District of New York Justice Department sacked by Trump about a month after us. And he's unbelievably good, you know, produced podcast like what sort of? Yeah, yeah. So I mean, it's mostly mostly politics, but he just has just done an interview with Cameron Douglas. Michael Douglas, his son who's just come out of jail had 10 years in jail, was a drug dealer.
And all the rest of it has written a book. He's just a brilliant, brilliant communicator. You know anyone in that law space, they just got that sharpness of mind. man that's so good. So yeah, he they're the two year Scott Galloway is really sharp funny if you're interested in tech, he's he's the one, I reckon and then prepare hours really good for them in the DJ, the press box, which is a ringer podcast, which is about media in America and worldwide, hosted by a guy named Brian Curtis, who he just liked the way he thinks I like the way he writes. And it's always interesting and I love one of the production things that they do. At the end is their editor, edits together a minute to sometimes a minute and a half of all of these different things out of context and creates a whole sort of conversation between Brian and his co host that makes no sense.
Context said it's at the end. Can I make a point on that? Yeah, that's called format right so that's that's a thing that the show does that our listener has gone I love that bit that happens at the end. So that's about formatting it's about just thinking about Okay, well yes, we could talk for the next hour but what's out what how do we make this unique? I'm always bringing it back to
format I probably won't be that impressive but lie back to the
lead up to our trip. desensitises la fact of the day you know, I allies downtown industrial zone, it's illegal to grow pickles.
Why illegal to grow, it's illegal to grow pick one. So you want that you don't grow PQKP call the we get more info. UC can't manufacture them. You have to go out into the surrounding areas, whatever the cucumber that you don't pick up.
how we get content.
I'm assuming because you're American you spent time much time in LA
factual information you have for Allah. I was really excited when I moved to Phoenix in 1996. I was really excited that the billboards gave the distance to LA because I grew up in St. Louis, Missouri, which is the Midwest. And so you had billboards that said Kansas City or Indianapolis, as I can, you know, but now, I'm in Phoenix in the middle of the desert, and I've got the billboards I can go to LA or San Diego. How cool is this? In La, la fact.
Good question. I do love the fact that at the Reagan Presidential Museum, our library, I think it is
they have a photo of Reagan from one of his films with a chimpanzee. So they've got all these different things that hit the plane that he flew on, they've got different documents that he's signed, they've got all these different things. And the thing that I remember is a photo of Ronald Reagan, the former president, United States, hugging a chimpanzee got cut, right? Yeah, yeah.
Thank you very much for coming on the show.
Any tips for live shots at first official live show? All right. Any tips for a live show? I mean, obviously this live now Yeah, but you know audience Yeah, there's gonna be painful painful like anything you realise my attacks.
Look at I mean, I would think you know having watched Hamish and Andy up close just make sure you give the audience a really good personal experience to shake their hands if they've anyone that wants to come along and say hi make sure you you know get them the time and I think you should you know, within the first 90 seconds throw somebody out
What about this? anyone in the room hasn't ever listened to a show because I think there's gonna be some friends of friends are.
Tommy this is this is an inside show. Sorry everyone. game changes you can just search on Apple podcasts and also on Amazon as well. So with radio
Game Changers com Awesome. Thanks guys. It's a show. Hi the daily talk show.com is the email address. Craig you allowing people to eat? Have you got a personal email if there's someone who's yeah listening and they're a regional presenter and they're wanting some food yeah if you go to the Craig Bruce coaching.com website it's just being rebuilt at the moment but you'll be able to get in there. Send me anything awesome as a data show show cinema for 500 say guys, that's quite a weird and yeah