Dan Ilic On Breaking The Story

Dan: The Daily Talk Show.

Tommy: It's a Daily Talk Show episode 466 from our makeshift studio at the Overlow Hotel in Woolloomooloo. We have a special guest with us, Dan Ilic.

Dan: It's good to be with you, mate. It's good to be with you. As they say when you do media hits, they say it's good to be with you. I know you guys don't do this like every day, but this is what media people do when they say good to be with you. Maybe you've had some more experience and did a few more shows, you'd have people come in and say good to be with you.

Tommy: Glad to have you here. What are the other sort of— these You use crutch phrases, right?

Josh: Yeah. Do you have ins when you're speaking with guests? Like how you start a conversation?

Dan: I usually try and start off with a joke that puts them on the back foot.

Josh: Yeah, yeah.

Dan: Or hits them, attacks them personally. Because I know that they know that I don't mean it, but they have to think about it, what they're going to say. So it's fine.

Tommy: Give us an example where this has happened.

Dan: OK. Josh, so you used to weigh 120 kilos.

Josh: Yes.

Dan: Well, what do you weigh now?

Josh: Oh, that's a good question.

Tommy: Well, they've actually got scales in the bathroom. Did you get on?

Josh: So after Ash Williams fat shaming to now finishing Sydney with a weigh-in. I mean, I have been eating a lot of cheese. The problem is that I'm doing a keto diet but also keeping carbs at the moment. Does it work?

Dan: Does it work? Does it work? Let's throw to the trainer.

Josh: Does that work?

Tommy: Does not work. Calories in, calories out.

Dan: Good to be with you is a great way to start something, uh, and also media people end it with that because I like it because it's so cliché. But the best, the best out was by old mate John Laws, who lives in this building down the end of the road, down the end of the pier.

Tommy: Russell Crowe lives here too.

Dan: Russell Crowe also lives here, right? He lives in a few places. He is right now, he's in Coffs Harbour, but, but he does live here. I know this because he tweeted this morning. Yeah, but, um But John Laws finished a great interview with Lee Sayles probably about 2 years ago. He said, he was drinking whiskey at the time, he said, "Did you enjoy this?" And Lee said, "Yes, I did very much. Did you?" "Every minute of it." And then straight away I was like, that is how you end an interview. I love that.

Tommy: Dan, you're the real deal. I'm looking at your phone right here. You're listening to Ken Burns' A Master Filmmaker podcast, or is that a video?

Dan: It is a podcast, and you will laugh because it's Tim Ferriss. Is it? Yeah. Tim Ferriss is interviewing— I don't listen to Tim Ferriss a lot, but when he does have someone interesting on, I do want to hear what they have to say. He gets good people.

Tommy: Ken Burns, all I know him for was the transition effect where you would zoom in.

Josh: Is this a fire alarm?

Dan: We are experiencing a real-life fire alarm here at the Overlook, one of Sydney's least on-fire buildings.

Josh: Yeah, I mean, it's on fire because it's so hot right now.

Dan: That's what happens, you get the Illich effect, turn up, bang, building turns on fire.

Tommy: I hope we don't have to get out of here.

Josh: Yeah, definitely.

Tommy: It's just a bit annoying. I hope it's a—

Josh: I appreciate Dan, he's a fucking content king.

Tommy: No, but that's the thing, you are a professional. I mean, there's only professionals that listen to Ken Burns.

Dan: Podcasts.

Tommy: To even know who he is, the transition effect guy. I saw you first on Hungry Beasts many, many years ago. I remember when the, it was almost like they were searching for the talent or searching for the people to apply. I know, Kirk Docker, someone I know who became a co-host with you.

Dan: One of Melbourne's favourite sons.

Tommy: Mate, he's amazing. Tell us about that journey of entering into Hungry Beast.

Dan: Hungry Beast was really interesting for me because I kind of had a little bit of TV experience beforehand. I did a sketch show on Channel 10 and then I was directing a TV show in Melbourne, Charlie Pickering and Michael Chamberlain's show on the Comedy Channel called The Mansion. It was like a satire show. And then I really wanted to do more stuff on camera, front-facing, writing my own, writing and producing my own stuff. And at the time I was making ads and content for GetUp, and they're like any kind of funny ads from the mid-noughties, they're the ones that I did. And this opportunity came up and I wasn't kind of sure if it was for me because they kind of said they didn't want anyone with experience, but I just really I really wanted the job. So I really loved Andrew Denton and I really wanted to work with really good people and be really challenged. So I put some stuff together and sent it in. And at the time I was also being interviewed for jobs at The Project. That was just starting up. The Project was just brand new, hadn't even aired yet, and they were crewing up and building this gigantic machine.

Tommy: What year was that?

Dan: 2009.

Tommy: Yeah, wow.

Dan: 2009, yeah. 10 years ago. We've got our 10-year Hungry Beast Reunion show this next week, actually. Oh, when this airs, 4 days ago. Get a ticket in the past.

Josh: And, um, how was the show?

Dan: Oh mate, just great. Like, we all got hammered.

Tommy: How's Kirk?

Dan: Oh, Kirk was just loose. He was always asking people personal questions on a scrim. It was very difficult. Um, and I remember going for the interview, and the interview was extremely daunting. You had It was like an hour-long interview. You were sat in front of a panel of really experienced producers. Andy Neil, who has produced every amazing show the ABC has ever done, including The Chaser, Paige Livingston, Andrew Denton was there, and I think Anita Jacoby was there too. And they just grilled you for half an hour. And then the second— and then you had to do like a fake interview with Andy Neil. Being a politician, and so that was difficult. And then, then you were given half an hour to sit in a room by yourself with a video camera with a bunch of props and make up a video on the spot. And then it was really strange, and, um, uh, I, I was— felt like I was under pressure, um, a lot for that interview. And it was, um, yeah, very, very, very tough.

Tommy: Do you think those audition processes are trying to weed out people that— what are they trying to find? Like, because I think there's people on TV that are super quirky that might not do well under that circumstance but would be great for the show. So it's an approach. And what do you think they're actually trying to do to you?

Dan: Well, I kind of think they're looking for creativity maybe, and looking for people who can do, can make stuff with not much. Um, I know you were, you're talking to, uh, Kelly, the Lean Filmmaker. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, that was, that was a really great chat. And you know, it's funny, like techniques like that she implements, uh, and that we all do as content creators online now, we're kind of just very— we're starting 10 years ago because these platforms were just kind of new. So I think they're looking for people who can create their own content out of not much and still tell a story. And it was grueling, like it was, it was very difficult. Um, I really brought my A-game I was really happy with myself.

Tommy: Yeah.

Dan: And in the process, that same week I was going for jobs at The Project and they wanted me to direct the field stuff for Project and it was crazy money. And I sent Zapruder's other films an email and I said, oh hey, I don't know where— it was called Project Next back then— I don't know where Project Next is up to, but I've just been offered a job at The Project. So if there's— if, you know, if— but I'd rather do Project Next than do The Project.

Josh: So Project Next was Hungry Beasts?

Dan: Hungry Beasts, yeah.

Tommy: Okay, yeah, they just kept it under wraps, the name.

Dan: Yeah, yeah. It was just, and I'm sure The Project was called The Project as a working title, but they just kept the name. So it was one of those things. I was walking down Johnson Street in Fitzroy and my phone rang and it was Andrew Denton. And I said, "Oh, give me a second, Andrew." And I jumped into like a really expensive furniture store. And he said, "Hello, Dan, it's Andrew Denton here." And I was like, "Oh, hello, Andrew." He said, "Congratulations, I hear you've got a job at The Project." And I said, Oh yes, I do. Don't take it, you're going to join Project Next. And I was like, oh great, fantastic. So, and so that started my 10-year career of doing really awesome things for not a lot of money. And I learned, I made some of my best friends at the, at Hungry Beast and, and got to work with incredible people and learn a lot from not only Andrew but all the other senior producers there, Anita Jacoby, Paula Kruger, John Kazimer, who's just this wonderful brain, and Andy Neil was— has— is always an incredible support whenever you need— whenever you get stuck in a tricky situation.

Josh: What was the learning from that experience? Specifically, yeah, not just from the audition experience, but making the decision between one or the other? I guess it's a real fork in the road, or one of those decisions which can really shape you as a creator.

Dan: I generally tryna, when I'm picking things for love or money, I'm always picking love. And I think I'd like to be financially stable, but I like to create good things and I wanna create good work that I feel like, I don't like calling myself an artist, but in many ways it's kind of like that where like, oh, I just wanna create lots of really good things so people can enjoy it and people can be delighted and I can stand back and go, oh man, I've made some really good things.

Josh: Yeah.

Dan: And every now and then I get really, um, uh, sad and upset with myself and, and like I'm not doing enough, or, uh, or I don't have— my career might not be where I want my career to be, or, or I just kind of— I miss those opportunities, or I fucked up opportunities. And but then when I am forced to write a bio or something, or update my, my resume when I'm looking for the next job, I go, fuck, I've done so much stuff. Like, yeah, it kind of makes you— makes me feel good about the kind of work I've made in the past. So right now I put out a tweet, but I deleted it because the grammar was bad. Uh, but I tweeted last week saying I'm like the brokest I've been in a long time, but I'm also the most creatively fulfilled I've been in a long time. So, and I—

Josh: did you forget a comma? Like, what was the issue?

Dan: I said the brokest I've ever been, but I'm also the most creative credibly fulfilled I've ever been. But it kind of wasn't— I fucked up the grammar somehow, and I was like, that's disgusting.

Tommy: Why not even take two?

Dan: No, no, you can't, because that— it was all the engagement was gone, gone, gone.

Josh: You can't read, man.

Dan: I, I lost so much Twitter split rev on that tweet.

Tommy: Hemorrhaging, haemorrhaging followers.

Dan: That's what you could have paid for this coffee.

Tommy: But I did. Thank you.

Josh: Do I get a cheese even if it's nice?

Tommy: Yeah, you can have that.

Josh: Thank you. You've got a baby cup.

Tommy: My hand's this big, what are you talking about? I'm massive.

Dan: So I think it was like that. I think it was the right decision because that meant I not only have built, made great work, but over the last decade, some of the people who I've worked with on that show, we are like, it's like we went to war together 'cause it was so difficult. It was arduous. Andrew, who's a tough boss, And but if you—

Josh: In what way?

Dan: He's very demanding and has a need for perfection and requires a lot on the table. If you ever get the chance to, and I'm sure you will eventually get a chance to interview some of his contemporaries who've worked with him, you get a better understanding. But he's so generous and kind. And but, you know, in a work setting, it's— he's got high standards and he really wants the best.

Josh: Is it the best in regards to production value, story? What is he— what is it that he focuses on?

Dan: He doesn't care so much about production value. He cares about ideas, um, and he's really of the best idea wins kind of mantra and, and executing that in a way that gets the idea across. And sometimes he would go and make us reshoot things to put on YouTube. Like he'd say, well, we're gonna put that to air, but you need to go and shoot a scene like this and a scene like this so when it goes on YouTube, it's better forever. And I would begrudgingly go, oh, fuck off. But looking back, I don't resent that at all because he's absolutely correct. And the stuff that had been on the internet is the legacy really. And so it's one of those things where I go, fuck, you know, that is such a good lesson to learn. And I've kind of taken that with me with the teams that I've run, like with Tonightly last year and, and smaller teams like Fusion in America. And it kind of get, get the teams I run to kind of think about that, um, that kind of concept as well.

Tommy: When there's teams and, and someone is sort of driving this energy that can sometimes be stressful or feel negative, how do you as a team on the other side process that? Like, if you've got a hard boss, yeah, and you know that their intentions are great, but it also feels a certain way to you, how do you, how do you, how do you live in that space? Or, you know, be within that space?

Dan: It's— I leaned into it because I'd had television jobs in the past and I'd worked with people who were as demanding but nowhere near as talented as Andrew. So it would be one of those things where, uh, I would go, yeah, tell me why I'm bad. Yeah, I'm so bad. Yeah, yeah, let's reshoot it. Yeah, you're right, it does need 15 more jokes. Yeah.

Josh: Um, so are your audience that— like, your audience rather than— like, would you think about him, uh, more than the actual audience in regards to your filters?

Dan: Um, no, I, I don't think so. But there would be times where I would come up— you know, Andrew was tough, and, and in Hungry Beast, he's, he's a, he's a teddy bear these days. But it's one of those things where if you really fought for an idea, you could get it over the line if you fought hard enough. Um, but sometimes you would you, you could lose that fight. So that was, that was doing— at the end of the day, it would air and it wouldn't be as good. And you say, you'd say, mate, we should have done it the way I wanted to do it. He was like, ah, you didn't fight hard enough. And they're like, oh, well, fuck, next time I'm gonna fucking dig my heels in and get it across the line the way I want to do it.

Tommy: So is it respect that you have for somebody that then allows you to— you're respecting their judgement even if it doesn't feel amazing?

Dan: I, I think so, um, only because it's a, it's a medium it's a medium that they're very familiar with and they've worked in for a long time. So I didn't mind that. And also they're much more successful. I've got no— at the time I had no real, real runs on the board. But now it's like, and when you have outliers like Andrew, he's so smart and brilliant that you can't help but go, oh, Well, you know, he's right. Yeah, you know, it's just one of those things. So, you know, that was a real— it was a real privilege to work with Andrew. And Anita Jacoby brought a lot of the journalist sense to a lot of Hungry Beast. And Andy Neil brought a lot of the fighting spirit. Andy Neil, for people who— people wouldn't know his name, but they definitely know all of his work. He, he was one of the producers of The Chaser and so many other shows. And just a brilliant brain, particularly when it came to getting things done and getting, getting around, getting around legal processes, but still playing within the law and, um, and being able to combat the network. Like, he was so— he was like a wonderful transistor, uh, or a capacitor between us and the network. So all the, all the, all the network notes would flow through him and all the complaints from from ABC viewers would go through him and he would reply to all of them and like none of it would touch us. So it was really fascinating to see him work. He'd just be maniacally laughing in his office at the next complaint that came through. So yeah, really fascinating to see an incredible team that's built the way Hungry Beast is built. And all the people who have come through with that show, the great thing after 3 seasons of that is that by the, by the third season, you implicitly trust every single person on that team, and you kind of know their strengths and weaknesses. And not everyone made it to the third season. And so it's one of those things where the team that you kind of end up with is this super strong, um, team of champions. And now, now look at the legacy of where all the people from Hungry Beast are. Yeah, it's incredible, you know, like there's You've got Walkley Award winners, you've got Palme d'Or winners, you've got Emmy Award winners in that team.

Josh: But also the people that, that inspired as well. I remember growing up and watching Hungry Beast and it was completely different to anything that had been on air before.

Tommy: Even it felt new and exciting.

Josh: Yeah, well, I remember like as a technology geek, the motion graphics were one of those things that just you just sit and just be like, how that you'd be stopping it midway and seeing the infographics. Uh, from a pre-production point of view, how did you interface with that motion graphics stuff and working it into the ideas?

Dan: So a lot of that creative direction came from Patrick Clare, who was the motion graphics lead, and everybody wrote. Um, so Pat wrote, Luke wrote, another motion graphics guy, Duncan wrote, the other motion graphics guy. So everyone was kind of in charge of their own scripts. And getting those scripts through to production. And then other folks wrote stuff for them to do as well. So, and you'd sit down, you kind of envisioned what the idea might be, and you'd take time to develop what it might be. So in the second, from the first and second season of Hungry Beasts, a lot of the beast files, as they became known as, were extremely complex. In the third season, we made them a lot simpler, 'cause they took like 2 weeks to make. They took a long time.

Josh: Just rendering time back then.

Tommy: Oh yeah.

Josh: You know, like, it was crazy.

Dan: Yeah, um, so the first season had extremely— first and second season had extremely complex, um, graphics, and then it kind of, kind of dumbed it down a bit just to make it a bit easier for the graphics guys because they were just being overworked.

Josh: Did it change lead times, and what did it teach you about being able to communicate your idea to different types of departments?

Dan: Um, I, I'm like a— I kind of, I kind of love that stuff too. Um, often Patrick is one of the extremely special motion graphics people who is a director in their own right and is a storyteller within the world of which he knows, which is After Effects, um, and 3D modeling. And you can go to him and say, look, this is the script, how do you think it will work? And it becomes like a partnership. Like, you'll be like, I reckon this could, this, this, and you're like, yeah, right, can you do something like this? You're about, yeah, that's great. And then so you kind of build collaboratively this idea. Um, often I would write a script and just chuck it to Pat and go, Pat, fix it. Now you're talking about this guy Pat. Um, I don't know if any of you have watched The Crown or Daredevil or True Detective or anything like that. He's done the opening titles of all those shows.

Tommy: I remember hearing True Detective, that an Aussie guy did the opening scene. Unbelievable. So that's the Emmy Award winner. You said you haven't chased the money, you've done the things you love, you've ventured overseas, you've worked in the US. I know there's been some, you know, storeys that have been written about your times overseas where you may have lost a job.

Josh: Yeah, well, Tommy and I took talk about it because it's one of those things where it's like, specifically within this industry, it feels everyone's jumping from place to place. You go from SEA to ARN, you're doing all the jumping around.

Tommy: Well, you got— I mean, yeah, everyone's— because not every job lasts forever. Most— you're not Dickie Wilkins. Not everyone gets 30 years at one company.

Dan: Yeah, I'm doing another podcast straight after this. Yeah, I'm gonna do two blokes talking tech straight after this, and I've got Tanya Hennessy out straight after that. Oh man, so, you know, Yeah, so, uh, what was that experience?

Josh: So you were— paint the picture, what, what happened? What went down?

Dan: Uh, AJ+ was just starting, and so that's Al Jazeera. Al Jazeera, yeah, out of San Francisco. And they had room to do— they kind of were extremely worthy. After 9 months of prepping, they kind of went live. And then I kind of got a job there as their senior satire person. I remember the job interview. Um, I was just coming through the States and visiting And I got in front of the, the executive producer there, and he's like— and we just finished. So Irrational Fear is my show, um, it's a podcast that I do, and it's a satirical comedy podcast. And we just spent a whole bunch of money making digital content online, like we just spent 13 weeks of crowdfunded money with a great team of my friends and comedians just making digital content for 2014. And I was so close to getting it up on telly at the Comedy Channel. And, um, and we went for like our 5th meeting at the Comedy Channel. Like, we thought, this is the one where they're going to commission. Like, we've been— we've taken them to the Opera House, they've seen our show, we've— they've watched our content, they love it. We're going back again. We're going back with like the, the 2nd top guy at the Comedy Channel at Foxtel. And, um, he sat back and a half an hour meeting went for 45, turned into 90 minutes, and then he went Look, I'll be honest with you, we've spent our money for the next couple of years. They commissioned the show called Open Slather where they spent $30 million making 15 episodes, um, of sketch comedy. Um, and it was aggravating because my budget was $1.5 for 30 episodes. So I was like, well, that's, uh, that's a real kick in the balls.

Tommy: Yeah.

Dan: Um, and so I was so despondent and sad about not getting that up, I really felt like failure because I'd been driving Irrational Fears so hard.

Josh: Why did you want TV, or why did you think TV was the plan for that?

Dan: Because it's unsustainable, like unsustainable to do what I wanted to do at scale.

Josh: So, um, do you think it's changed in 2019? If you're on the same path, I guess you'd go to streaming services, or, you know, what?

Dan: Well, I am on the same path, so I'm looking for, I'm looking for, um, uh I'm looking to buy a house in Sydney, feed my family, and make comedy. And it's hard to do without the kind of money that television can provide or a streaming service or a network can provide.

Tommy: I mean, when you're trying to buy Russell Crowe's next door.

Josh: Oh mate, exactly.

Tommy: Neighbours.

Josh: Expensive tastes.

Dan: I don't know if I should tell this story, but a good friend of mine rented an apartment in this building where a famous person passed away and he got it extremely cheap. And I said, don't you even care that this person died? He's like, nah, look at the views. And I'm like, oh, okay, mate. All right.

Josh: Anyway, I sort of get that. People die all over the place.

Tommy: Get a bargain. Yeah, a bargain's a bargain.

Dan: The whole world's a bloody cemetery. Yeah, people die everywhere.

Josh: It's a good outlook.

Dan: It's great. If I can leave you one thing, the whole world's a cemetery.

Josh: So you weren't feeling too good after?

Dan: So yeah, then I went to Then I went to America and I was so stoked to kind of be accepted in America. And I pitched, I kind of pitched Al Jazeera comedy, which is very funny in itself.

Josh: Is there a context change that you have to do in regards to like, is, oh, they love Aussies, so I've gotta play, like I've gotta change this part of my personality?

Dan: I spent a lot of time in America, so I don't really, I kind of, I used to think that first time I went like 20 years ago.

Josh: So you got rid of the Melbourne hat?

Dan: Yeah, I got rid of it. You just don't need it, just don't need it. Like there's people from all over the world there. So the guy I was pitching to was Syrian.

Josh: Yeah.

Dan: Um, and he's like, okay dude, well, you know, how do you make Israel and Palestine funny? And I'm like, um, and I pulled up this sketch which we did 3 weeks before at Splendor where we interviewed drunk kids at Splendor about how to fix Israel and Palestine. And, uh, it was all vox pops and it was all done with motion graphics, uh, not done by Pat Clare but done by another brilliant artist, um, Alex Gabbott. And it was just the most hilarious vox pop with people off their face at Splendour trying to fix Israel and Palestine. And he's like, okay, that's funny, man, you got the job. I'm like, sweet. Um, so then I moved over at the beginning of that year and I spent 5 months working for Al Jazeera making satire for them. And it was one of those things where they would just throw stuff at me and go, hey, this journalist can't go to media day at the Super Bowl, can you go? I'm like, Sure, yeah, I don't know anything about anything about Super Bowl. So I quickly looked up the baddest things about Super Bowl and kind of went and made, um, tried to make comedy there. Then, then like I'll get thrown to CPAC, the, the Conservative Political Action Committee, a conference in, in, in Maryland, um, where I would go and interview people about, about, um, Muslims in America. Or I would try and bring— I would try and create a holy war, get people to sign up for the holy war, uh, against Muslims, which was funny in itself. And I saw, I saw Donald Trump speak, um, and he would have been about this far away from me. So that's 2014, or that was 2015? 2015. Yeah. And he would sit in the room and he would go, yeah, I'm not good, I don't know if I'm gonna run, I don't know. And people go, well, run, run! I don't know, should I run? Yeah, run, run! So funny. And so I, I had to quickly learn, I had to quickly learn about the, the struggle for me was understanding American politics. At the time I had some idea, but that 6 months I was thrust in it and I had to learn real quick because the people that were working there were so much smarter than me, had a much broader understanding of geopolitical machinations and local machinations. So I had to learn real quick. So in that 5 months, I kind of— it was like a real baptism of fire. So I got there and then I just got an American agent and he's like, ah, oh, uh, you know, The Daily Show are gonna be looking for new, new people. And I was like, awesome, I'm in.

Josh: Yeah.

Dan: So I wrote a couple of scripts and recorded them on the green screen at work and edited them and sent them off. And then someone saw me do that, so my producer, so help me do it, she kind of— she had her nose out of place and was like, well, you know, Dan's doing this. And then somebody else went, what do you mean, what do you mean Dan's doing that? So, you know, that person called someone in Qatar, in Doha, and then apparently the Prince of Doha sacked me. So it's a good story. Yeah, but like, you know, it's like a big media organization, you've got edit suites where journalists are like constantly updating their showreels to get a job somewhere else.

Josh: So is that a cultural, like, is that a them not understanding how the the industry works? Were they— or do you think, were they so committed to you that they were upset that you were potentially turning your back on them?

Dan: Well, I don't think, um, I think my boss had my back. My bosses had my back, which is great. But then this person who was in the office was visiting from Qatar. They didn't like what I did, so they went above— they went above my bosses and got me fired while I was on holiday with my girlfriend in Manila. So I landed and then got fired.

Josh: And so what was that? What was that experience like?

Dan: Oh, it was horrific. My whole world just flipped upside down. I'd moved to America, my girlfriend and I.

Josh: How long in were you?

Dan: Only 5 months.

Josh: Yeah.

Dan: So I like rented a house, blah blah blah. So then I had to pack up all my shit and go home. And, um, so I did that and, um, And then 6 months later, did you fight it? I couldn't fight it. Yeah, I couldn't fight it because it came from Doha. Yeah, yeah. Wow.

Tommy: What's the—

Dan: I just thought that was— that's the moment. That's like the sliding doors moment for me where I'm like, fuck, if I played that differently, um, I don't know if I could have been on The Daily Show, but you know, maybe something else would have happened. But it was funny. And I kept it under my hat for a few weeks, and then Ali Petrowski from A Current Affair was visiting San Francisco, and we went out to dinner, and she posted on Instagram, and then Pedestrian ran it.

Tommy: Yeah, wow. I mean, how do you get another job then if you can't sort of do it within the time and using the equipment? I see, I see where they—

Josh: did you go back to the office, or that was it? Like, yeah, no, I just packed up my stuff and left.

Dan: And that was it, yep.

Tommy: It's a real scene out of an American movie, isn't it?

Dan: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Josh: I mean, I think that you're someone that's thirsty for opportunities or someone that like, you just look at everything that you've done and you've done so many things and you could look at that example.

Dan: I'm hearing needy, you're absolutely right. Need attention.

Josh: No, no, but no, I think it's like you're extremely hardworking and it's one of those things where it's, like I've followed along, like I went to Massage My Medium.

Dan: Did you?

Josh: Yeah, in Melbourne.

Dan: Oh my God.

Tommy: What year was that, Josh?

Josh: That would have been, what was it, 2010 or 2009?

Dan: No, that was 2008. No, 2009. So Mark Finnell and I did Massage My, so we did Beakersfield Musical for the first 3 weeks of Comedy Festival, then the last week we did Massage My Medium. And every night we had a special guest and it was like Mark Finnell and I doing a show about like a young person's Media Watch. We were kind of deconstructing media in Australia and like where it might be heading and, and how, and like how fucking Australian media was so backward and how the internet was going to revolutionise everything.

Josh: Yeah, because I just had no idea as a young person in like, went to a low socioeconomic school, like didn't, like had an okay education, but there was just so many massive gaps in my knowledge. I felt that like this was my, um, I didn't go to uni or whatever, and this was learning from all the content that you were doing. Um, yeah, I, I can, I can see how I've seen your career and I've seen how— my point being, the, the opportunities and this, the amount of stuff that you've done is, is incredible. Um, would you—

Dan: looking at the—

Josh: looking at that lens, looking at that opportunity lens with the, um, The Daily Show stuff What other option, like, how could you have done it differently?

Dan: I don't think I could have done it too differently. Maybe I couldn't have filmed, maybe I just filmed it on my camera at home. You know, that was the other opportunity, which other people would have done. But when I was home in my parents' house back in Sydney and the news came out that Ronny got the job, it made me feel so good. Yeah. I was just like, oh, That is incredible. Ronny is the best.

Tommy: He's a friend of yours?

Josh: Yeah, yeah.

Dan: Ronny's like a lovely bloke, and it's just like, ah, he's talented and killing it, and it's like, I'm so happy for him. Yeah. And so I was like, it kind of made me— it kind of brought closure to that, you know? I was just like, Ronny's heaps better than me. I was like, yeah, I'll just bring that, bring that to a close. And, um, it felt really good, and I was just so stoked for him. So Uh, and then, so then I kind of had a few more tilts at the US, and now I'm back here.

Tommy: Do you think the, uh, the American people are more political than Australians?

Dan: Uh, yeah, yeah, I, I think some are. I think some— it depends on the wealth gap. I think, I think if you're slightly— if you are rich enough, you don't have to worry about healthcare, um, you might be less engaged, and those people generally don't vote. And if you're— and I feel like there's a lot of folks there who have to think about the politics. Every day in America is politics, particularly if you're a person of color. It is in Australia, it's the same too, but there it feels like so much more pronounced and everything. Everyone's a little bit more on edge. And there wasn't a day when I was at Fusion in LA for 2 years I worked there where I didn't talk about healthcare. It was one of the— like, in the office there was enough people to talk about going to the doctor or something, what a pain in the ass it was, that it was a weird conversation to my ears to have all the time. Um, because in Australia we don't have to worry so much about that, but there it's at the top of people's minds. It's this underlying anxiety about how much healthcare costs, which doctor you can go to. How you can go to the doctor quickly within work hours, that's near you, within the network that you are paying for, and all this stuff. So super, super low-level anxiety about very basic needs that underlines everything in America. It's all to do with politics.

Tommy: You could imagine what that does to a human just living in a world where they have to think about these things.

Josh: Well, it seems like one of those, like, obvious needs like primary needs or whatever.

Dan: And so, yeah, it's like, it's so bizarre. Like, and guns is another thing, but less, less problematic in LA. But, uh, but it's one of those things where, well, if Republicans don't want gun control, maybe they should be for universal healthcare so that when people do get shot, they can get fixed for free.

Josh: Yeah, you did a bunch of like on-the-ground work. I remember seeing stuff that was you shooting it very solo The difference between the Hungry Beast experience of being in a team and collaborating versus the difference between you with a backpack and a camera, what do you prefer?

Dan: Uh, in a team. I'm very collaborative. Yeah. And I don't often don't trust my own judgment, so I like other people there to tell me, um, to do it better.

Tommy: Yeah.

Dan: This is one of the things that I was kind of with the Al Jazeera experience is great, but there wasn't the— at the time they hadn't, and they— I was like one of the more senior people there, so I had to kind of really rely on my own judgment.

Josh: Yeah.

Dan: And I really didn't trust myself, and I really wanted to learn. I was really looking for an opportunity to learn more than I already knew, um, in terms of comedy and comedy creating. And at the point I was there, I was like, oh, I see, I'm running this whole thing myself. So it's very strange. And likewise with Fusion, I thought I'd be running a team of a few, of like 10, 15 people to make stuff every day. But when I got there, it was a team of 2. It was like, oh, okay, right, uh, it's a fancy title I've got, but I've done— yeah, but I've only got 2 people to do things with. All right, well, let's, uh, let's give it a go. So yeah, I prefer larger teams to kind of make great stuff. That's when I came home and started working on Tonightly. Um, it was a real thrill to kind of run a team of 40. I was like, wow, what a cool experience, like, uh, to go run it from a team of 2 to running a team of 40 really fast, smart, funny people who can turn things around every day. That was amazing.

Tommy: What have you found, uh, teams that are smaller can get more done, or does a bigger team mean you can get lots more done?

Dan: Oh, bigger team means you can get lots more done, but Tonightly was separated into small teams, and the small teams could turn things around very quickly. You can write, produce, shoot, and edit a sketch all in one day, um, the way that— the way Tonightly was set up, um, kind of in 4 separate field teams. So that was pretty thrilling to kind of see that in action and watch that flywheel effect go through. And when I kind of took over, I kind of just all I did was kind of step out of people's way and let them kind of develop their own sense and kind of patch things up as they went along. Um, and so it was really a really cool experience. Yeah, I think so. Yeah, small, smaller teams can get things done pretty quickly. Um, and what we were doing on Tonightly was just phenomenal with how much content we were making.

Tommy: It makes sense, teams within teams.

Dan: It's, you know, within teams.

Tommy: Yeah, this our little operation for the three of us is sometimes more than what I did when I worked in the big stations with 10 people in the show.

Josh: We're super focused and everyone, I think it's that because we're doing it every single day, similar to what you were talking about with the Hungry Beast stuff, we've sort of radically had to work out what we're good at, what we're not good at, and then pick up the pieces.

Dan: And also like it's a, you know, it's a, this kind of stuff which you do every day is a muscle. So, and you're working this out every day and I'm sure by your 50th episode you're like, alright, well let's fucking do another one.

Tommy: Yeah, look at the body on Mr. 97.

Dan: Yeah, look at him.

Tommy: Chest ripped and rock hard. And he doesn't even go to the gym, it's just this.

Josh: Talking small teams, I was watching old videos that you did with Brad Blanks. Oh yeah. In the US. What I love about Brad and also your content is the sense of adventure and just the fish out of, out of water stuff. What was it like working together?

Dan: So Brad and I met at the 2002 Olympics in Salt Lake City, and this was a guy who was like hooked on radio. His storey is phenomenal, and you know, I know you've interviewed him, but like going from the Sydney Olympics reporting for WPLJ, and then 2 years later I met him in Salt Lake City, like pretty much at the beginning of his of his radio kind of journey in America. And he was just like, oh damn, I got this interview with this gymnast. Oh fuck, I got it, it was so good. And, um, did he do the coffee?

Josh: Yeah, that cough seemed like it was part of the whole—

Dan: but yeah, yeah. And we were— we were going to parties. Like, Brad knew where all the parties were. He was so connected. And then in the Athens Olympics, uh, we got— we got even tighter because Brad got— got us all into the Sports Illustrated parties. Every week, and there was just chock full of celebrities, which is fodder for him because of his radio show. And it was just phenomenal, those early days with Brad. And then, then we started making content together. So we kind of— at the time, I got back from the Olympics and was mucking around with, um, Ronnie Johns on Channel 10. And then I started working at Fairfax after Channel 10, making video content for them. And then I kind of pitched video content to Fairfax Digital back in the day. Um, this is when, you know, SMH had money to make videos. I was like, so I've got this mate Brad in America, I reckon we could make a little series out of him and I'll, I'll roam around with him and, and go to these big events like Sundance and, um, the SAG Awards and, and the Super Bowl. And, um, and you know, it's an Aussie, uh, country Aussie bloke in New York City trying to meet celebrities and cheque out America. And they're like, great, go do it. And I kind of— How much did they give you?

Josh: Yeah, well, how'd you work out the budget?

Dan: Tiny amount, like $5,000. And so I, enough for me to buy a ticket and borrow a camera and spend some time over there.

Josh: Do you think you under— 'Cause I noticed over the years I've undersold myself based on, this is a fucking great idea. If I get this across the line, it's a win.

Dan: Well, like, at the time I was, what, 2008? I was like 27. And I just thought this would be the best fun ever. And I didn't think about, you know, how much money I'd need to live over there. And at the time I was video editing, so I was making lots of money being a video editor on stupid hourly rate to make terrible corporate videos. So I had lots of money saved up and I was just like, well, how would you like these videos? Do you have $5,000? Great, let's go make it. And that was great. And then later on, I did another series for Fairfax where I got $2,500 from Fairfax and $2,500 from a company called Heavy.com and made content as a co-pro with them. Um, and so Brad and I would just travel around and do these zany videos. Uh, and Brad was always bad at being structured, so what I kind of brought to him was a sense of like storytelling and structure for those videos. I was like, okay Brad, this is where we've got to set this up, setting up a solution. Let's go through, tell me what you're thinking, tell me what you're thinking, tell me what you're thinking. Maybe say like this in a bit of a funnier way. And he's like, yeah, great. God, this is great, Dan, this is great. So yeah, we were just like— we, we became brothers. And it was, um, uh, Brad's one of my best mates, and it was just making crazy content with him all over, all over the place. And one of those clips we did at Sundance, and it was great. We were making these Foxbutt videos with, with people on the red carpet and And it was all crammed into like 3 weeks. So SAG Awards, the Adult Video, the Porn Awards, the, uh, Super Bowl and Sundance were all kind of in the space of 2 weeks. And then Brad would fly us all around the country to get to film it. And we're at Sundance and we're at this party like at 2 o'clock in the morning. And, um, I had— it was the party for The Wackness, and Mary-Kate Olsen was in it. And, um And I, years before, 6 years before, was a ski locker room attendant at the Deer— at the Stein Eriksen Lodge where I put her boots on her feet and in Utah. And I was like, "Oh, Mary Kay, remember me? Dan from the locker room?" She's like, "No, go away." And I was like, "Okay, all right, fine." So Brad and I were talking to these stockbrokers who financed another film at Sundance, and they know Brad because Brad's like a celebrity in radio circles in New York. And they're like, hey Brad, how are you getting home tomorrow? And Brad's like, oh, I gotta interview Matthew Perry tomorrow, so, you know, we're gonna get the red-eye, red-eye home tomorrow. And they're like, hey, don't get the red-eye, come home with us, we got a corporate jet, yeah, we got space, come on, it'll be great. It's like, nah, nah, nah, you gotta interview Matthew Perry in the morning. Yeah. And, uh, and Brad and I are walking through the snow home and, um, to our apartment, and, uh, I was like, Brad, What are you doing? You're going to interview Matthew Perry 10 years after Friends has finished? Or you get to fly home from Sundance in a corporate jet? He's like, oh, you're fucking right, Dad, you're fucking right. He whipped out his BlackBerry at the time and called the—

Tommy: He still has that. We saw him last year.

Dan: And he called Dave the Chief. He's like, Chief, Chief, do you have 2 seats? Great. We'll see you there, 7 AM. All right, great, bye. It's like 3 AM, so we sleep for a couple hours, get the taxi down to Salt Lake, and we're waiting. Flying corporate is amazing. Like, there's no lines, there's no tickets, there's no nothing. It's like you turn up and you get on the plane and you leave.

Tommy: You need your passport?

Dan: Not internally. Not internally.

Josh: Tommy's never flown before.

Dan: It's like catching an Uber.

Tommy: In America though, you have to show ID.

Josh: You show some form of ID?

Dan: I can't even remember doing that, because we just turned up.

Tommy: Dave, the stockbroker, turned up.

Dan: He's like, come on boys, let's go. So we hop on the plane, but as we're waiting there, Brad's like starving and there's like a vending machine with noodles and he gets some noodles. He's sitting there eating his noodles. He's like, oh, just so starving. Oh yeah, this is great. And Dave walks in, he's like, Brad, what are you doing? We've got food on the plane. He's like, oh fuck, you're right, you're right. Yeah, fuck, you're right. So we hop on the plane and we're flying and Dave's like, So, you know, treat yourself. We got magazines, DVDs, you know, whatever. Cheryl will cook you something, whatever you want, blah, blah, blah. There's drinks, just, you know, have a good time. And, and then the guy— there was this guy called Jackie the Joke Man from Howard Stern Show. He was on the plane too. And he's like, why would you— why would you want to watch a DVD when you can listen to an old man regale you of radio past? So then he was just telling storeys about cocaine and strippers and Howard Stern and Because he probably would—

Josh: like, he was off Howard Stern at that point.

Dan: He was off. Yeah, he's got an email list you can subscribe to. He sends you lists of terrible jokes every day. Uh, and that was amazing. And we were like, fuck, Jackie the Joke Man's just got these incredible stories. And he— then he falls asleep. So then we landed— we land in New Jersey, and, um, and we're like all trying to organise a taxi. And Dave's like, don't worry, we got you, we got your car, you know, we got your car, you know, just hop in and go to your— go to your home. So Brad at the time was living in Hotel Pennsylvania and he kind of goes downgraded over the years. The first time I visited him was— would have been 2002, and he was in the presidential suite at the Hotel Pennsylvania because the Hotel Pennsylvania was a sponsor of WPLJ radio station.

Josh: Those sponsors, he talks about the AT&T deals that he had. Like, so crazy.

Dan: He was in like the biggest suite in the Hotel Pennsylvania. They looked after him. That was part of his deal.

Josh: Yeah.

Dan: And then, but by 2008, he was in the shittiest little room, but still at the Hotel Metzger. And so we're there a day early. We didn't expect to be there. We thought we'd be there the next day. And so we're trying to figure out what other content we can do. We knew G'day USA was happening, and it was happening up at the Lincoln Center, um, and Brad lived down at Madison Square Garden, so Midtown. So we're gonna have a shower, put on our suits, and head uptown to go and interview Aussie celebrities at G'day USA. We knew John Travolta and other people we're going to be there too. And then I'm in the shower and I hear Brad in the bedroom going, what? Oh, fuck, no, fuck, fuck, shit. All right, fuck, fuck, thanks, mate. He's like, Dan, Heath Ledger's dead. I was like, wow, fuck. So we're trying to figure out what we're going to do. Um, we hop in a cab.

Josh: Where was Heath Ledger at the time?

Dan: He was in New York City. He was in Greenwich Village. He just— it was just after Batman, and we didn't know where he lived in Greenwich Village. We just knew he lived in Greenwich Village. And so that guy on the phone was a guy who at the time was just finishing having sex with the chief of staff of the New York Post, and a Zoziblack. And so he— the first person he called after, after he overheard a conversation with this girl was Brad. And so just by fluke, we found this out, and we're right— so we're racing down to Greenwich Village, and it's about 8 o'clock in the morning Australia time, so I start— or Sydney time— so I start calling Sydney Morning Herald, and I was like explaining what we found and how we're just going to go down and cheque it out and see if, see if we can find anything else out. Um, and, and running around Greenwich Village trying to find Heath's house, and I knew there's a couple Aussie bars down there, knocking on their doors. At this time it was probably about 5 o'clock in the afternoon.

Josh: How are you trying to reflect it? What are you thinking about? Like, is it someone down the street that saw him the day before, or what, what are you, what are you looking for in that moment?

Dan: Uh, yeah, where I, we just, I'm just looking for answers. That's it. Trying to find any clues. I have no idea where he lives. We just know he lives in the village. And so there's Aussie bars down there. I went to Eight Mile Creek and asked them. There's another Aussie cafe, asked them, couldn't find it. Then I saw a news van go around the corner. I was like, oh, maybe I'll just follow that news van. So I'm like running after this news van, this ABC news van, and the news van parked right out the front of a house with cops out the front. I was like, well, this could be, this could be it. So I just start filming and then I call Brad and tell him where we are, where I am. He comes down and joins me and And then we start filming, we kind of just kind of— we didn't— I don't know what the hell I was doing. I wasn't really a journalist back then.

Josh: I wasn't— what sort of camera were you using, like a CD170 or something?

Dan: So I'd hired or borrowed a very expensive Sony HDV camera from my mate Brendan Smith, who's a camo at Channel 7.

Josh: Z1 or something?

Dan: Z1, that's it! Nice. But on the plane to Vegas, it had smashed and broke.

Josh: Oh no, oh no.

Dan: In in when we checked it in. So we were using Brad's shitty one-chip Canon, um, Canon camera, uh, shooting on mini DV. And Brad came and met me. We kind of were just getting B-roll of stuff. Didn't— no one was really speaking. There was no other journalists there. There was an AP photographer, the ABC News van. The AP photographer took a photo of me at the front of Heath's house, and that photo is on the City Morning Herald article about Heath Ledger's death. And in the front you see me and my backpack filming the house. And so Brad turns up and I say, Brad, can you just hang here with the camera? I take out my laptop, I FireWire the footage from my camera to my laptop, give the camera to Brad and you say, I said to Brad, you just keep filming, get what you can. I'm gonna be at the Starbucks 2 blocks away. So I run to the Starbucks and upload the footage to my FTP. My FTP server.

Josh: You're talking Mr. 97's language.

Dan: It's a File Transfer Protocol server you use. Uh, it's like a web server that— it's like Dropbox but you own it. Um, and so, and I call Fairfax and say, look, this is what we— this is what we know, this is where we're at, um, uh, we'll have more information. So they're downloading the footage, and because I'd alerted to them what had happened they started writing the story, and by the time, um, they were ready to hit publish on the story, they just needed confirmation. Um, Brad came in the Starbucks and he's like, Dan, I got it, I got it! So he— while I was uploading my B-roll, he got confirmation from a cop about what had happened, and I quickly jammed the camera into my laptop at that Starbucks and downloaded the footage and uploaded the cop conversation over the Starbucks Wi-Fi. And Fairfax got it, ripped it, turned into video, confirmed the story. They were the first to break it, um, in the world. I think Perez Hilton beaten by like 10 minutes or something, but like they were the first news organisation to, to break it because back then Twitter really wasn't a thing. It was, it was new. Uh, and then we ran uptown to interview, uh, the Aussie celebrities on the red carpet, and they had found out at that point. And so we We were— we've interviewed all these Aussie celebrities, ran downstairs to the Starbucks underneath them, download the footage, and uploaded the footage to Fairfax. And so we kind of broke— we kind of were the first to kind of break this story. It was like kind of this confluence of digital storytelling kind of meets journalism in a real, really tangible way.

Josh: It was—

Dan: and that was the first time I really, really kind of was a journal— was a journalist rather than a comedian. And it really was super interesting time and you had a certain rush. It was a very sad story, but at the same time for me, it's, at the time it was extremely sad to say this, it was thrilling to kind of be in that space.

Josh: Well, I guess that's why there is CNN, there's 24-hour news because there is, it is an entertain, like it is a form of entertainment for many people.

Dan: Yeah. But, you know, but we were also trying to break it first and break it right. Yeah, all that stuff. And it was, it was a really strange experience to be in, in a taxi talking to editors at the Sydney Morning Herald and, and uploading footage and all over the places. Like, before there was 4G or 5G or any kind of wireless.

Josh: Were you thinking about how do we do this tastefully? Like, when you're coming from the jet?

Dan: Yeah, well, I mean, that was, that was one thing. Like, the one of the editors at the Sydney Morning Herald was like, and Dan, um, someone said that Mary-Kate Olsen was with him at the time because he was legally dating him. I said, no, that's not true. I was with Mary-Kate last night at the Sundance Film Festival. So that was absolutely not true.

Tommy: I remember that though. People were saying that she was in the apartment or—

Dan: and I've been there. So I got to, I got to debunk that. That was so— because I was with Mary-Kate that night. Yeah.

Josh: And so what's the experience like, the news thing? Like, because there's people who have a whole career chasing that and doing that.

Dan: It was like really funny. There's a the US correspondent for The Australian was there. And, um, and I didn't meet any of the local Fairfax people because I was just, I was just an idiot. Um, and, and Brad overheard them. He said, oh, Dan, that's the Australian guy, that's the News Corp guy there, and he's really pissed off. He said, he said, this fucking cunt got it before us.

Tommy: I was like, I mean, they're totally desensitized. You guys had come from like a, you know, outer space and had a lead and followed it and, you know, treated it like he did. But their job is to be pretty black and blue.

Dan: Just, it's story, go get it, yeah, get it out, done, go home. It was a bit— it was a big story. And, um, I think from— for me it was no skin— like, I had no skin in the game as to whether we broke it or whatever. But for him and the other journos there that were from Australia, now it's— they had— did have— they didn't have skin in the game. They would have probably been raked over the coals and not getting it first.

Josh: It's an interesting case study in that the new media and that, uh, different way of doing things. I feel like at that time citizen journalism was just becoming that sort of big thing of people being able to use, you know, their devices to capture that stuff.

Dan: Yeah, indie media websites and stuff like that. That was kind of a big thing back then, and, uh, it was still all new. It was still new. Fairfax issued journalists with awful smartphones that could record video back before the iPhone was was really a thing and things like that as well.

Josh: So yeah, what is your thoughts on sort of the shallow media or that the media that's just doing stuff on, on the surface versus the, that sort of more feature content where they're going in and really reporting on something for a long portion of time?

Dan: What do you mean?

Josh: So I guess with Twitter and those, those sort of, um, being able to be quick to a storey versus giving the detail of a story?

Dan: I think you're going to be— I think you have to be— if it comes to the battle between quick and right, I think you want to be right. Um, and you want to make sure the storey is correct before it goes out, because it— that's what you do as a journalist. You want to— you want the truth. So if I was already on filing fast or filing smart, I'd file smart and make sure you have all your ducks in a row. So yeah, that's, that's kind of what I think.

Josh: Yeah.

Dan: And then I think you need a mix of both. I think you need breaking storeys in bite-sized chunks, and then you can, with hindsight, you can look at a bigger picture with something a bit more in-depth. And I think both, both things have a place.

Josh: Spending so much time in the US, how does it change your perspective of Australia?

Dan: Generally, I think we're doing some really good things, but I think the media market here is 6 years behind.

Tommy: Why is that? I mean, we're pretty far away from the States. Technology too.

Dan: I think scale, scale of audience is a big thing. So we're all battling for a small audience in Australia, and I think, I think there's a reluctance to experiment with new forms when it comes to digital storytelling or digital products. There's no reason why in Australia we don't have a, in my mind, and there's no reason why we shouldn't have a great Vox-style broadcaster or publisher in Australia. We've got some experiments going. Junkie's doing, moving into that space, which is great. Pedestrian are moving into the pop culture version of that space, and they've got money from platforms like Facebook to make video content, so you might see more of that from Junkie. But there's no one, doing— there's no— I don't think there's anyone doing it in a more serious fashion, in a more scalable fashion. So it's, it's hard. It's really hard in Australia to kind of make that, make that work because we just don't have the audience to get the money from a brand or advertiser. Right, right now brands are still pummeling so much money into television, um, and but the audience is disproportionately not there. So the audience isn't in television, but brands are still piling so much money into it. The audience has shifted online in a major way. The only people that are watching television are boomers, and bless them, they watch stuff, which is great. But young people, anyone under 40, doesn't watch television as much.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: What's your favourite medium?

Dan: Um, I really like the xylophone. I think that's really— get some good timbre.

Josh: Could you break a big story?

Dan: My favourite medium, then followed by papier-mâché. I think that's a really, really good medium.

Tommy: And then smoke signals.

Dan: Yeah, yeah, good medium. Uh, I love, I love podcasts and I love radio. Um, I've hosted a lot of ABC Radio in Sydney, and that was that, right? Like, hosting breakfast in Sydney was one of the highlights of my patchy career because you feel like you're, you're driving the city, you know, like you're in charge of the city for the day.

Josh: When were you doing that?

Dan: To the 2014, so before I went to the States, I was filling in a lot on 702, all the shifts. Um, and when I filled in for breakfast over summer, it was just great, just great fun. I loved getting up at like 4 AM and doing that shift.

Josh: You actually enjoyed getting up that early? I loved it because we got up early the other day and I was thinking about our friend, uh, Jace Hawkins, who does, uh, breakfast in Melbourne, and just thinking about Oh, that's his every, every day, which I think would be pretty intense.

Tommy: Even Ben Fordham, probably 3:30, has to get up to go to the Today Show.

Dan: Can I say, Ben, it's great to see you moved the Nutribullet to the office so Jodie doesn't have to listen to your fucking smoothie making at 4 AM, you selfish cunt.

Tommy: So if there's one thing you, you could do, it's like you could only pick one, the, the medium, is it audio, is it video? Is it written?

Dan: Um, I think, I think audio is pretty special. Like, what you, what you guys are doing now is really special. You're building an audience from, from what you're doing, and I'm sure your audience is very appreciative, and they join you, um, because they think you're— it's very intimate, you know. You're talking directly to your audience, and you're building a friendship and a relationship with that audience, and that's really special. And I think you can build good audiences with audio. And that's why I do the podcast. That's why I do Irrational Fear, which is a great vehicle for not only for comedians but for to have real discussions about not only for comedy but to have real discussions about real issues in the world. So I'm kind of enjoying— I've been enjoying building that up. Like, our audience has grown 10 times this year since we've started it back up again.

Josh: Amazing.

Dan: Um, which is really cool. And we've toured all around Australia with it, and people turn up, which is great. We just did a show in Canberra a couple weeks ago, and it was like this full show filled with people, filled with people who wanted to hear Irrational Fear. And I was like, well, this is so good. And they were so loud, I think in Canberra because they're so thirsty for entertainment. The entertainment capital. But it was such a thrill to kind of go there and, and be appreciated by the audience. So, um, yeah, I think audio is really, is really a great vehicle. And at the moment, and people, people joke about how there's so many podcasts and everyone's got a podcast, but the listening isn't anywhere comparable to radio. And there's such an opportunity there to kind of move those listeners over, definitely, to podcasts in a major way.

Josh: Hey, can you tell us about this Audible deal that you've just done?

Dan: Oh yes. So for the last year, Mark Humphreys, Evan Williams, and Casey Yanning and I have written a show, uh, a, a audio sitcom for Audible, and it's roughly the Breaking Bad of a conservative commentator. It's a, a late-night irrelevant commentator who records his show at midnight, all of a sudden gets thrust into the breakfast slot and learns how to be racist and becomes really popular, and, um, and then starts a starts an event which sees him having to go into exile overseas. And I'll just say that. Oh no, so he's in exile overseas and then he ends up having to, he ends up, saying it sounds so dumb, he goes scuba diving, the boat disappears, and he ends up having to come back to Australia by an asylum seeker boat. There's more, there's more to that story, but it's 8-part half hours and we're doing a final joke pass this week on the scripts, and they are so funny, and I'm really proud of it, and I can't wait to get in production at the end of this month.

Josh: What's, what surprised you about dealing with Audible versus, say, the traditional networks, or is it the same?

Dan: Audible have been, uh, hands-off to a large degree. They've had notes when it comes to legal and cultural things, so all of our scripts went off to the UK to be edited and the UK guy and I were really good for the most part, and then it would come to stuff like references in the script to wogs. As someone who's Lebanese and Serbian, I identify as a wog, so it's totally fine for me to do that. He's like, oh, you can't say that, that's as bad as the N-word here. I'm like, what are you talking about? And I like sent him like wogs out of work, super wog, all these Australian cultural icons. I was like, here's what's happening in Australia, right? And he's like, I can't believe you people are doing this. Yeah, this is how it works. You know, we had a joke, we had a fake sponsor in the, in the, in the show, and we had this fake ad and it was like, um, uh, such and such show is sponsored by Coon Cheese. It's a family name, get over it. Like, and he's like, you definitely can't have that, you can't. Why be racist for the sake of being racist? I'm like, it's the name of a cheese. Yeah, it's another cheese in Australia. I've seen him Coon ads and he's like I can't believe you did it. I'm like, I know, that's why we put it in there, because it's dumb and it's fucked and it shouldn't be there. But this is why it's in there. So we had to get rid of that. So it's funny, like the cultural stuff is interesting and we are playing to a global audience. So we kind of want to make sure that it's funny enough that if you are in America or the UK, you can enjoy it. But if you're Australian, you have another level of laughs with it.

Josh: That's awesome. I can't wait to binge listen. Is it going to be something where it's all available at once or is it going to come like— It should be.

Dan: Yeah, we haven't started production yet, but so it's— I've never made an audio drama before and I understand it's very difficult, so it's going to be very interesting. Yeah. So that's awesome. Later on this year.

Tommy: How do we end it? I know that we—

Dan: Good to be with you.

Tommy: Go ahead. Yeah, that's it.

Josh: Well, I want to quickly get clarification. You're talking about being a WOG. Dan Illich or Dan Illich?

Dan: Okay, so I've kind of gone between the two. Yeah, I used to be Illich.

Josh: Yeah.

Dan: And then I hit high school. And people just started calling me Ilic because that's how you say it phonetically. So now I was Ilic for a long time, and then, uh, and then media, it was easy just to be Ilic because people didn't— people couldn't understand the silent H. Um, and no one called— like, for instance, Carlos Stefanovic would never win a Gold Logie, but Carl Ilic— uh, Carl Stefanovic could. So I was thinking, oh, media career-wise, I'll just colonise my name.

Josh: 2019, maybe Ilic.

Dan: When I started doing a lot of 702 Radio, I changed it on air to Ilic, uh, because that way I could be seen as a diversity hire for the ABC. Well, it hasn't really worked. I'm still not employed by the ABC on radio there, but I will accept both. And if you ever listen to the podcast, I introduce myself as both as well.

Josh: Well, that's where it was confusing as fuck, because I normally would just be like, the easiest thing to do is just hear them say their name, and then you hear it a couple of different ways.

Dan: Yeah, I know. I'm playing to two audiences. I'm playing to my dad and then the rest of the people.

Tommy: Well, Dan Ilic, yeah, slash Illich.

Dan: Yeah, if I need a grant, I'm Illich.

Josh: Yeah, uh, thanks so much for coming on. When you're in Melbourne, it would be great to have you in studio as well. Uh, you've got some epic stories, and it, it is, uh, one of those things where it's like podcasting has actually been around for ages, and I've seen you doing so much of the shit that everyone's only talking about now. And so I'm really excited for the next chapter for you because you were doing the shit that now people are finally fucking talking about.

Dan: Mate, just join my TikTok, it's the future. Did you enjoy this?

Tommy: Did you have a good time?

Josh: Yeah, thanks so much for coming on.

Tommy: Good to be with you.

Dan: Yeah, ask me if I enjoyed it.

Josh: Did you enjoy it?

Dan: Every minute of it.

Josh: It's a daily talk show, please leave us a review on the Apple Podcast app if you enjoyed it, otherwise go fuck yourself.

Dan: Is there too much swearing on this podcast?

Josh: No, no, you said cunt twice.

Dan: I did, I did.

Tommy: Maybe bleep the C. Can you bleep the C-bombs? Definitely not.

Josh: Good cut-through.

Dan: See you tomorrow, guys.

Josh: Catch ya.