The Life Plan With Shannah Kennedy

Tommy: The Daily Talk Show.

Josh: It's The Daily Talk Show episode 451.

Tommy: Coming down after yesterday's party on the show, we have Shanna Kennedy in the studio.

Josh: Hello, Shanna, how are you?

Shannah: I'm great.

Josh: That is good. Uh, you have been doing life coaching before it was cool. Is it fair to say that?

Shannah: Way before it was cool.

Tommy: I mean, my claim to fame for my mother is that she was doing yoga in bloody the '60s and now it's hip. And so when did you start?

Shannah: She was really cool.

Josh: Yeah, she brought us incense that she got from like, was it the '70s or something?

Tommy: It was a long time ago. It took 2 years to arrive from India. Yeah. But anyway, that's another story.

Josh: It gives Mr. 97 asthma. We don't light it anymore.

Tommy: So life coaching, when, what year did you start?

Shannah: It was 20 years ago.

Tommy: Yeah.

Shannah: Do I have to put that into years? No, no, 20 years ago. So no one had heard of life coaching yet, um, and I'd gone through chronic fatigue after my big couple of careers, and I needed someone to help me through it because you get really, really depressed with chronic fatigue. It's like your body won't move. It's like you've got a huge hangover and everything hurts, and your mind's going, I really want to just walk around the block and your body's saying, no, you're not doing anything. So I needed that help with some support really getting through it. So I actually found someone called a life coach and it was the best thing ever. It was like she was, you were there, she was on the phone, she was saying, right, today's goal is this, you know, you're going to get to the letterbox and tomorrow you're going to get to the letterbox and then 10 more metres and then back. And I had this person as my my friend. It was like my silent business partner in this huge business called Chronic Fatigue.

Tommy: And so was she specialising in people who have chronic fatigue?

Shannah: No, no, no. Life coaches don't specialise in anything in particular. It's really about the client and what the client needs.

Tommy: Specializing in life. Yeah, yeah, all aspects.

Josh: The difference between going to a psychologist or that sort of end of the spectrum versus a life coach, is there a way to distinguish between when someone just, you know, would benefit from a life coach over that?

Shannah: So psychologists really will go through your past and what's happened and unpack things for you. The life coach is really about, let's draw the line in the sand, you've dealt with that. What's the plan moving forward? What's your strategy moving forward? What are the habits that are really going to support you moving forward?

Josh: And what were the habits when you were in the middle of the chronic fatigue? What were the things that had the big impact for you?

Shannah: Well, for me, I'm the A-type overachieving perfectionist. Doesn't mix very well with chronic fatigue. So I love burning out. I love, you know, the to-do list and setting goals and smashing them. And I don't like the rest. That's lazy in my brain. You know, my parents are European, and, you know, if you ever sat down, it was like, oh, you're being lazy.

Tommy: Yeah.

Shannah: So that sort of is in my brain quite a lot. So For me, it was like push, just keep pushing. It was like work ethic, work ethic. I valued work ethic so much that it was actually quite destructive.

Tommy: And I mean, there's so many people now being noisy about that approach, the A-type personality, the hustle, don't stop, you know, I'll sleep when I'm dead. Now you will die because you're not sleeping. That's to be honest.

Shannah: It does cost you your health.

Josh: And so you're a stockbroker. What is it? What's the day-to-day of a stockbroker? Is it literally like pointing at like numbers and stuff? And I don't—

Shannah: Well, my journey, it started when I finished year 12 and I rang a Melbourne stockbroking firm because I'd watched Wall Street, the movie, and I thought Gordon Gekko was really cool.

Tommy: I watched Wolf of Wall Street. Is that like— that's a stockbroker firm?

Shannah: I'll get to that bit. He's a stockbroking firm. And I rang the lady in HR every single day. I hustled. Yeah. And I said, I want a job here. Because I'd done some work experience on the trade floor in year 11 where you just run around with the bits of paper, you know, with people screaming. That's so exciting. So I'm going back there. But of course you can't start there. So I had to start in the dungeon in the filing department and with these Scottish women that I couldn't understand. It was all dusty and horrible. But within 2 years I was the first girl to sit on the trading desk and I really broke the glass ceiling. And that's, you know, 30 years ago. So it's a long time ago and there's no women around really. And it was like the Wolf of Wall Street. It was not a great place for a female to be and to see. And I'd been at an all-girls school my whole life and that was my introduction to men. So it wasn't really pretty.

Tommy: It seems like, I mean, from that movie, it's like win at all costs.

Shannah: Win at all costs. Party as hard as you can and be as naughty as you can.

Tommy: Make lots of money.

Shannah: And make a lot of money.

Tommy: Yeah.

Shannah: So, you know, that was my foray in there and I did really well. And they said, well, you're a girl, you don't have a degree and you're only 20. I said, okay. So I travelled the world for a couple of years and did the whole backpack thing.

Josh: And where did you go?

Shannah: Everywhere in Europe possible. I did 2 years on my own.

Tommy: Wow. You had a visa? European family?

Shannah: Did you have a—

Tommy: No, no passport.

Shannah: I just went.

Josh: Is this customs? What are you—

Tommy: This is not customs.

Shannah: I just want to see your papers, please. But you just went. And I worked in the Swiss Alps. Helps, you know, and got jobs as waitress here and a waitress there and met amazing people. And I went to like 50 countries and, and just raw living with one backpack. It was just amazing.

Tommy: What do you think it is about traveling? Because I've experienced going over to the States when I was younger and the, the approach, the energy, the confidence I had, it wasn't normal. It was like I was— I can't explain it because I've always tried to think, how can I have that energy back here at home? But when I get home, then just becomes, you know, back to the old ways.

Shannah: I think there's expectations, isn't there? And there's responsibilities at home and our families are there and our friends are there. But over there, it's— you are 100% connected to yourself. Is what we were talking about before. People are so disconnected now with themselves. They're on the treadmill of life. And when you travel like that, you are totally in your skin, you know, who you are, what you're doing, what you like, what you don't like. You make decisions. And in those days, there was no Google, there was no phone. So I'm sure with you, every time you got into making decisions, you had to think them through. If you missed the train, you had to go and walk and find a timetable, or, you know, you had to solve problems 24/7. Whereas now, no one solves problems. I just Google the answer, or ring mum or get more money sent over or whatever. That wasn't— I had to ring reverse charges once a month.

Josh: And so is there a way of having that experience, our travelling selves, our best selves at home?

Shannah: I think you can tap into it if you're really connected to who you are. And that's a reason why I wrote the book, is don't live other people's lives. Really understand who you are. And when you see a 3-year-old look in the mirror, how close do they stand?

Josh: Yeah, very close.

Shannah: Real close.

Tommy: Oh, my kid, I've caught him just looking, smiling.

Josh: Yeah, loves himself.

Tommy: Like Daddy.

Shannah: Well, my question is, do you do that?

Tommy: No. Well, you should. I did a meditation where I was looking in the mirror and it was a surreal experience. It's a guided meditation on an app and it is bizarre because it's all about that acknowledging self and we get so consumed with self.

Shannah: Yeah.

Tommy: And it's like dropping that is a super hard thing to do because everything, every stimulus, every, you know, when you want to hide, you close your eyes. Little kids closing their eyes when they're young, I'm hiding away from the monsters. We were playing that last night. But that means that if he, he thinks he's inside by doing that, right?

Shannah: But here is your inside, the windows to your soul, your eyes.

Tommy: Yeah.

Shannah: So the first thing we do with clients is You know, who are you without your job? Which freaks a lot of people out because if we took the job away, they're like, I don't know.

Josh: I'm like, what do they say?

Shannah: I'm like Peter from Macquarie Bank or, you know, I'm so-and-so from Richmond Football Club. And take all of that away. And we see when people lose their job or get dropped from the team, the destruction it causes. And a lot of it is because they haven't harnessed who they are as a human being. That's just what you do. That's not who you are. And the first thing to do is go back to the mirror and be the 3-year-old and stand that close and look at yourself. And it's pretty confronting when you start, but when you've done it for a while, it's, oh, it's so liberating. You're looking at your best friend that is there from your first breath to your last breath, is you. And we just go and live other people's lives and dreams, and when we come back to self and we're checking in with ourself every day in the mirror, And we're asking ourselves, is this really good for me? Is this going to make me happy? Is this going to make me shine? What's my instinct telling me? People make great decisions and they find incredible happiness that way.

Josh: With your book, The Life Plan, what I like about it is there's so many questions.

Shannah: Yeah.

Josh: It's, I guess that's to your point of that self-reflection. It's, we need to work out what the answers are. This isn't saying you need to do this, this, this, this, this. Do you think there is an advice culture that is prevalent at the moment online with people saying, "This is what you need to do"?

Shannah: Yeah, it's massive. It doesn't work for most people. We are unique, amazing, awesome human beings with a soul, and no one is the same. And there is no recipe for everybody. It's about creating your own recipe for life that works for you. You know, I've listened to you both quite a bit. You're both really different characters and You know, my husband's really an extrovert. I'm an introvert. I love being at home with the dog and the TV on and some footy on, and I think it's fantastic. And he, he needs people, he needs to go out all the time, and he's got a massive job. And I'm like, don't you want to rest? So, so advice for him and advice for me is completely different. And there is a culture at the moment where everyone's going, do this, do this, do this, and you'll feel like that and you'll be like that. Whereas I think it should be questions. You know, going back in and saying, how will you thrive? Going back to the beautiful 3-year-old in the mirror, when that person— when you think of yourself in looking in the mirror when you were little and how free you were, or when you were travelling overseas and how free you felt, and tapping back into that person in the mirror, um, amazing, amazing answers come up.

Tommy: When you're, uh, in a life coaching session, do you find that you start to intuitively, intuitively to understand what approach will start to work with an individual?

Shannah: Within a minute.

Tommy: Yeah.

Shannah: But I can't tell them.

Tommy: No.

Shannah: So I've got to take them on a journey where they own the journey. So I always think of a life coach, a good life coach shouldn't be telling you what to do. They are the lighthouse and you're the boat. And I'm going to shine the light a little bit for you so you don't, you know, make some bad decisions.

Tommy: Hit the rocks.

Shannah: But it always comes back to your values. And most people don't know their own set of values.

Tommy: Yeah.

Shannah: They're like, I don't know, I know the company's values that I work for, but I'm not sure of my own. And so your values are the baseplate.

Josh: What's the difference between an internal voice and anxiety? So we might be thinking something, say the storey might be, I'm not really good at ordering a coffee. Like, I'm going to get my partner to— my default is if I'm out on a weekend, I'd much prefer to not have that many interactions. And so I understand that I've told a story, which is I don't like having to deal with stuff. I'm very much one to just pay a bill rather than having to try and work out any splitting. I understand that there's internal voice and then there's anxiety. How do you distinguish which things are serving you and which aren't?

Shannah: By asking the questions. So everyone's got stories. We love storeys and the human brain loves storeys because it, it wants the easiest pathway. It's going, "Let's do what's easiest for me." But it might not be the best thing for you because you're just hiding away from something that could be a great challenge, could give you great joy if you change the story. So we always talk about appealing to your better self. And I always think of my 70-year-old self and the storeys that I tell myself. I think, well, is that really true? 100% true? And is my 70-year-old self endorsing that? I said it. So my 70-year-old self is saying, yep, get up early and move your body so you can tie your shoelaces up, even though I don't feel like it. That's tapping into— it's a skill. So life coaches should be teaching you life skills to integrate in.

Tommy: Technically, I'm a life coach. I did a life coaching course, uh, when I was 19 at the Coaching Institute. Oh, I don't know if I actually finished it, but it was at a time where I was a personal trainer and I wanted to deal with outside of the gym, you know, the stuff that goes on, you know, the stuff where it matters really. The gym's the easy session, to be honest. And so I did this course, but I, you know, I saw a pack of 25 people that came through and everyone had kind of had their moment where it was a tipping point. They were all like, and there was probably 95% women. So I was this young 19-year-old bloke in this room full of women were all ta— it was so— I loved it. I loved it. But everyone had got to a point where they were like, I'm done. And I, and I've done a bit of work on myself and I really like this. I can have conversations with friends and I, and I really enjoy it. And they then want to turn that into a job.

Shannah: Well, it's a bit like personal training.

Tommy: Yeah.

Shannah: It's sort of got the same vein of road that it's gone down, but For me, it was completely the opposite. So for me, it was like after, you know, my next job was at Bolle Sunglasses, and I had 200 athletes that I had to look after. I was the Jerry Maguire job then, so I was buying and selling athletes basically. And it was, it was seeing the destruction behind the scenes. So we, we see them compete, these athletes, and I work so closely with them, their families, their girlfriend, their dog, the auntie, whatever it took for them to love the brand. But I got a real insight into the life of elite athletes and the scale of how much they have to sacrifice of normal human behaviour to actually be the best. And I saw that no one really cared about them after. So you drop from the cricket team, that's it, see you later. You don't get anything from free anymore. You go from hero to zero overnight. You know, you're a god last week and this week you're, you know, you're finished now, we've moved on to somebody else. And there was no catch, there was no safety net for them. So I saw a lot of gambling, alcoholism, you know, marriages crumble, people taking their lives. And I just, I, I just had alarm bells going off the whole time. And when I had chronic fatigue, I was like, because I'd work 7 days a week because sports on the weekend I had no off switch. That's total FOMO, fear of missing out. Um, I had to learn self-care and I had to learn what's my life plan as well. And I had to go through the depression of who are you without your job because I couldn't do my job anymore. And that's when I decided to really target my athletes and help them build a life strategy to run alongside their athlete career.

Tommy: Yeah, I mean, the problem with— and people would say this to me when I was at the course, they're like, 'You're 19, what do you know?' Like legit, I had those questions from people. And so what I ended up taking from it was this great— I just had a great experience learning about this stuff and being interested. And I kind of had the thought of, I won't make this my business.

Shannah: But you also invested in yourself.

Tommy: Exactly.

Shannah: And that's awesome. And, you know, I think a lot of people take a lot of doing the course for themselves.

Tommy: Yeah.

Shannah: They think, yeah, it'd be really nice to make a business out of that. But I was 110% focused on making a business out of it and bringing it to the sport world. I was just a little bit before my time because I couldn't quite handle it yet.

Josh: Is there anyone that comes to you that, that isn't facing a problem? Like, I guess if you go and see a life coach, you're, you're obviously in a corner or you're at a point or a crossroads. Are there varying levels of that? Are there people who are so self-aware and in touch that they're doing it before they actually hit the—

Shannah: well, I get a life coach for myself. Yeah, yeah, because it's an investment. It's an investment. You need someone to ask the questions. You can't sort of answer your own questions sometimes. When you've got a neutral person who's not emotionally attached to you asking you questions and challenging you outside your comfort zone and challenging what you're doing, it's like having a silent business partner. So the majority of my clients are not at a crossroad. They're very successful people. They're CEOs, they're directors, they're high achievers. You say, oh, I want you to challenge me. I want you to cheque that I'm not forgetting who I am while I'm on this incredible career trajectory. Or, you know, I'm this up-and-coming athlete and I just want you to make sure I keep on check. So I'm the safety net or the silent business partner, so to speak.

Tommy: Are these people seeking that discomfort? Because it is uncomfortable to sort of navigate these things that you didn't know about yourself.

Shannah: I think they're smart because they know, they know if they want longevity in their career that you need to have someone on your team that is not a peer or a friend, because your friends will tell you what you want to hear. You can't really talk to your peers because then you're giving away secrets, or you can't go up to the coach and say, I'm really struggling a bit because I'm having a fight with my mum. You know, these are some of the things I was dealing with with footballers. I'm having a fight with my girlfriend or an affair, and I don't know what to do, but it's affecting my performance. They can't tell the coach, I can't tell anyone at the club anything, I can't tell their friends, I can't tell their family. Who can they talk to? So I, I am the vault of unbelievable secrets. I could write a book, but I have incredible secrets where they can actually verbalise a lot of the time what they're thinking, feeling, or doing. And there's no one else that they could actually tell that to.

Josh: What about someone who feels like they're suffering from chronic fatigue? What's the difference between being exhausted and feeling burnt out versus chronic fatigue?

Shannah: If you have full-blown chronic fatigue, you can't move. You actually are in bed all day and you cannot move. I couldn't, you know, put lights on. I had to put sunglasses on. My eyes were burning. My ears still hurt today. So there's, you know, I go to my kids' basketball matches and it's like hell.

Tommy: Yes.

Shannah: So I've learned to meditate through those and shut my ears down. So there's a lot of lingering things for me. I get really sore legs every night, so I have to put them up the wall so that the nerve endings were burnt. I pushed so hard. Wow. I burnt my body.

Tommy: Is it because I've always thought about the people who burn out to the degree you do, is there a moment when you're in it and you're going, 'This is not good for me, but I'll continue to go'?

Shannah: Oh, every day. Yeah, because I had this brain that had this work ethic built into it that was saying, 'Doesn't matter, go to that party anyway, go to that dinner. Yep, we've got to do that presentation, we'll do it anyway. Don't take a day off.' Oh no, no. So it was my brain overriding my— what my body was telling me. And I also didn't value self-care. I didn't value it.

Josh: And you talk a lot about saying no or being able to prioritize. It's interesting because it feels like young people have access to more content nowadays. They're, they're listening to podcasts, they're listening to audiobooks, and there is a lot of that advice around don't work for free, say no. And I see it happening with young people where they haven't yet gone through the journey of knowing what it is to work hard and to actually have a real crack.

Shannah: Yeah.

Josh: Have you worked out a way of identifying that? What advice? Because some people need to hear that. They need to hear you need to be able to say no. And then there's the other people who it's like, where you need to be at the abundance phase, you actually need to say yes to everything. You need to grab onto the opportunity.

Shannah: I think it's knowing where you sit on the plan. So if you're— we all do 20-year plans, which sounds freaky. Wow. I know, I can't wait to show you. It sounds freaky, but it's really simple and it shows you the ages and the stages. So there's some ages and stages where you should be saying yes to everything. You should be trying things, working hard. You know, Gary Vee would say, you know, just hustle, do the shit. You know, he's like, just do the shitty jobs. Yeah. So my son, who's 15, I'm like, yeah, going straight down to Hampton Street and you're getting a job. I'm not— you're not on my payroll anymore.

Tommy: Red Rooster, mate.

Shannah: Yeah, he's Red Rooster. He's got his CV in there. He's done McDonald's. He's actually going to work for free at the bakery.

Tommy: Oh, good.

Shannah: And I said, you go, you just work for free, you get experience. He goes, oh, but you know, I don't get paid. Doesn't matter. So it's about— yeah, there's an entitlement that's come through. We've also got all of this information because of technology, which is fantastic and come in with great abundance, and we can learn everything we want to, but people have no boundaries. On that either. So it's like opening the liquor cabinet, just going crazy. People need some boundaries. They need to know what's a hell yes and what's a hell no. And for the next 2 years, I'm just going to go and work really hard and know what that pain feels like, or that sleep deprivation feels like. But there's, there's got to be some boundary.

Tommy: Well, I think it's— I experienced this when I was younger, the restlessness of where I wanted to be and where I was. And that was a hard time. I haven't felt it anymore. I haven't felt it in many, many years. But that is a— it's a super hard time for people who are in a place where they don't want to be and they want to get to. What is the— what are some coping mechanisms that you've found gets people out of that feeling of discomfort in their own existence?

Shannah: Because I think happiness is about growing. And if you can put in perspective, I'm here for a reason. And I'm learning something, or I'm challenging myself with something, or I've got to change my mindset. We need to have a project going the whole time in, in the brain, because the brain is like a computer. And if we don't programme it every day with what we want it to think and feel, the 60,000 to 80,000 thoughts we have every single day will be a washing machine, and 90% of them will probably be negative. So it's about that going to the mirror, taking control, I'm doing this at the moment, it's uncomfortable, I don't want to be doing it, I want to get to there, but I have to do this first. Make that the challenge, make that a game, make that an adventure. So it's really about owning yourself and the way that you think about things.

Tommy: And in terms of from a business perspective too, because it's— you can really clear— I mean, I can— you can almost be— I find it easier to think about where we're going in the business than I am, than I, than it is to do for my own personal life, right? And then, but there's also, I guess that's the closest.

Shannah: Easier. Yeah, transactional. Yeah, I mean, you've got to go emotional. Yeah, the business is transactional at the end of the day, you know. I've coached people that have sold their business and that was their heart and their soul and their life, and they got their $30 million and they're shattered. They're shattered because they've not, they haven't done anything emotional for so long. They haven't invested in their friendships. They haven't invested in their hobbies. They've got no projects outside of that on the go, and they're completely lost. And I've got to unpack them and then pack them up. Or people love their coping strategies, which is, you know, coffee and alcohol and pills, and they're just— it's just destruction.

Tommy: You took a 20-week sabbatical.

Shannah: I did.

Tommy: And so you just— tell me about that. So you just hit the pause button. What was most interesting was that you didn't make a phone call for 20 weeks.

Shannah: No.

Tommy: Gee, I mean, there's a lot of young people that probably freak out.

Josh: Well, I think there's young people who have never made a call in their life as well.

Tommy: But the phone thing, not having your phone. Yeah, that's, I mean, that's scary.

Shannah: It was a big decision. So when we did the 20-year plan, we saw that there was a 1-year window that we could take our kids out of school and have a sabbatical, the dream in the RV, without doing homework because I was not interested in doing any homework. And it was my husband's 10-year long service. We said, should we do it? And we said, yep, let's do it. How can you regret it? And I'd built my business up, I'd written books, I had this thriving business. Life coaching was just becoming like, I think we understand what it is. And I was going to walk away like, oh no, everyone's going to take my clients. And, and you read in the book, it's really scary. What if we don't get along? 24 hours a day, 7 days a week with 2 kids. Like, it was, it was really confronting. Everything about it was confronting. And the minute that we got on the plane, we never looked back. We never— we gave our kids the best experience. We had the most amazing family bonding time just by living in the mountains, RVing. You know, our kids got the best education in RV parks that you could ever get because very unusual people live in RV parks.

Josh: Is there an argument to say, well, why don't you just do that full-time? Why make it a sabbatical? Why not just have that as your default life?

Shannah: Because after the 20 weeks, we came back saying, we really want to do another 10 years of amazing work. You know, because we get such— both of us love our jobs. He's a CEO. We get so much satisfaction in what we do. We both really believe in helping human beings and doing the right thing. And teaching other people. And I think it's really important that if that's your passion— his passion's always been snow, and now he's CEO of Ski Australia and Snow Australia. And so he picks the, you know, Olympic team and he commentates at the Olympics. He's living his dream on the snow. And for me, it's really about educating people on wellness and life skills that no one really taught me because they weren't available.

Josh: Yeah, there's— it seems like there's a paradox with freedom. Because I feel like, say, on a Sunday, I'll say, I'm not going to do anything today. It's normally when I have like a crisis moment because I have no constraints.

Shannah: You just got off the treadmill. Yeah.

Josh: Well, I, you know, I can go on. I'm just like, I'm just going to do whatever I want. And it's just like, you know, watching TV and eating shit food.

Tommy: Look out, he's wild.

Shannah: Real wild Sunday.

Josh: Crazy cat. And so like, there is something interesting. Is that a misconception that With freedom, there's happiness.

Shannah: Well, the whole sabbatical for us was about life experiences. It wasn't about freedom. And I think what we want to do is build in life experiences. And we need to build our diaries so that we have a sense of freedom. So if it's a Sunday for you where you can do that and that fuels up your tank and you feel like rebellious, that's awesome. So we need to build in what you think your sense of freedom is. For me, going to a yoga class at 9:30 in the morning is freedom. You know, while everyone else is at work, I'm like, I've really nailed this.

Josh: There's a reframing there, isn't there? Like, I remember the most success I've ever had food-wise was when I switched from saying, I can't have that, to I don't want that. Yeah. And so is that part of it? Is part of it saying, because there's more fun things than yoga, But if you watch TV, for me it means choice.

Shannah: Yeah, I'm living the life I choose and that's success to me.

Josh: Yeah.

Shannah: So I'm either going to choose to sit on the couch and eat shit food and watch Netflix all day, or I'm going to go to my yoga class. Or, you know, I take one day off a month and I leave the suburb and I go exploring and I go to a yoga class on the other side of town and take myself out for lunch with my and business partner and go and have a massage. And it's like, everyone else went to work today and we just pretend we're on holiday somewhere. So it's, for me, it's a sense of freedom is living the choice and using my diary to choose. So it's a mindset. It's, and it's how we control what we're thinking and what the storey we're telling ourselves. So people say, oh, I'm so tired and I'm so burnt out and life's so busy and there's not enough time in the day. And I'm like, well, that's 'cause you think like that. And if you think like that, what you're telling your body— so I choose to say, today is full and it's easy and it's effortless, and I'm going to run with it. Awesome. It's the same days, it's just how you tell yourself.

Josh: So where does the negative self-talk sit with you? Where do you find that you enter into that?

Shannah: I don't much. I get off very, very quickly. Yeah, it leads to depression for me, so I have to get off it really, really quickly.

Tommy: Is that because you've implemented those kind of strategies?

Shannah: Yeah, because every day when I wake up, my body does not feel good because chronic fatigue is— it's like this built-in reset every night. And so every morning I have to retrain my brain and my body and then tell myself it's going to be awesome and I've got lots of energy and today's easy, and then I just run with it. But if I get up and I tell myself I'm exhausted I will be exhausted.

Tommy: Yeah, I mean, I feel like there's— people get to that tipping point and that moment where a lot of successful people have found— I, I've spoken to— have had that moment of getting to the end of their tether, and then they— but the hard thing is it's, it shouldn't always be that. It shouldn't always be someone gets sick in your family or you get sick personally that then changes your health, but it's almost like that is I think it needs to happen.

Shannah: Yeah.

Josh: Like the crucible moment or whatever. It's the moment of hitting rock bottom to know where the limits are. Because otherwise we're always playing in a space of not completely understanding. I remember filming some stuff for The Minimalists and they spoke a lot, you know, about their storey and everyone that came up and did the Q&A session, they would go up and talk. They would all have these long storeys of why they became a minimalist. Like, no one becomes a minimalist or an essentialist without going completely the other way, having too much stuff.

Shannah: Yeah.

Josh: Have you, um, over time started to adjust, say, removing things out of your life, like the actual physical stuff?

Shannah: Yeah, yeah. So I set myself challenges every season. So we're in spring, so You know, what can I do to upgrade my life? Just little bits at a time. So do I really need that? Or what's in my routine that's working or not working? Or what habits? And what books am I reading? Are they educating me? And podcasts am I listening to? Are they giving me joy or not? Is Instagram helping me or not helping me? Just, it's the questions, it's the challenging yourself to say, how can I get my ship to sail smoother? And sometimes we're gonna get a curveball, Absolutely we are. And some days I'm not going to be able to train my brain, and that's cool. Let's just get the percentage up so 90% is good and 10% is bad rather than 50/50.

Tommy: So you've thought about these things, you've, you go, you've done the audit almost, and then there's a whole piece of work that's around action and implementing change, which I think is the hardest thing. We had something called Organized August, which was getting organized, but then I was pushing to have Action August because I thought that action would bring a greater result. Result than just spending the time organising the stuff.

Josh: Need the checklist first.

Tommy: But do you, do you need the checklist? I mean, I've actioned a lot in my life without even writing stuff down. I think you do that too, Josh.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: And so which one's more important or are they mutually as important?

Shannah: I think mutually. I think one's a safety net for the other because we can go off on these tangents and do all of these things. It's a bit like my clients. I can go and coach people, but at the end of the day, I have to have some super good records of what we've been talking about and safety nets and things that sort of help the process be better. I think they're a bit hand in hand.

Tommy: Well, you can get moving with no structure.

Shannah: That's why there's a yin and a yang.

Tommy: Yeah, no, I mean, that's Josh and I as a business partnership. We do talk about the differences and the you know, the maybe analytical and the dummy over here not thinking too much about it, but they're both sides of them. So I could start doing something, actioning it, which then forms the strategy without thinking about what the strategy was before I started it.

Shannah: That's like the other business I have, The Essentialists, and we've got Lindell Mitchell working with me and we're the yin and the yang. And I'm the, you know, crazy, let's do A, B, C, D, and E today. And she's like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, we've got to think that through a little bit. Or whatever it might be, and I'll have 5 ideas every day. And not all of them are great and not all of them are real. And we need to just, we need, you need both. I think you need both.

Josh: Yeah, the getting to market quickly or doing the thing and testing versus sitting on something. Have you gotten better at shipping the ideas or do you think over time as you get older, you actually become more conservative?

Shannah: Um, I get conservative because I don't want to waste my time. But say, say writing books, um, you know, I think, you know, I wanted to write a book and I was like, yeah, I'm going to be like Sarah Jessica Parker and I'm going to go to the cafe, I'm going to have my coffee and my laptop, punch out this book, it's all in here and I know it all, blah blah blah. Not good for me, not good. I was just going home depressed. I wrote one sentence because, you know, I bumped into a few people I know and It's not like on TV. And so I went to the mirror. You go to the mirror, say, how do you work your best? What is the setup for you to work at your best where you're just in the flow? And I said to my husband, I have to go away. So I went away for 5 days and he said, I'll give you 5 days off and I'll have to look after the kids and manage everything. So I just went down to Bluegarry for 5 days and I wrote the life plan and I did not move and I would just get up in the dark in my pyjamas and I would let— sometimes I'd look up and it was 4 or 5 hours later and I delved into the topic and into my brain so much. That's how I work best. So you've got to cheque in with yourselves about what's the setup that really works for you. When some people might love to write half an hour a day, that to me would be just horrific.

Josh: I mean, it's an amazing luxury. It's one of those ones where Tommy always jokes about the fact that for me I need the moon in the exact right position and I need the temperature. I mean, when is that?

Shannah: I'm a bit like that.

Josh: Yeah. And so when isn't that self-serving? Because in one way, when you go to Blair Gowrie and you do the work, you're amazing and you're effective. And so you're—

Shannah: Can't take that to the café.

Josh: Yeah. And so you're actually securing that as a thought or a belief that I do my best work, which is great. Is there a way of hacking it so that you do, you can create that special place that's closer where it doesn't mean that you have to drive an hour to get there and have to—

Shannah: I think it depends on your circumstances. So for me, you know, we've got a couple of teenagers and a dog and it's just full action stations and a lot of sport going on. I need, if I really want to do something amazing, I have to remove myself. And that's just a fact. It's just the way it is. I can't integrate that down in the, café in Hampton Street. It just doesn't happen. But I do challenge myself also to not become too stuck in that mentality and to keep, keep allowing myself to flow a little bit and not get stuck. So we always say life is like a river, and you know, you want to flow. Don't get too stuck behind those big rocks because it becomes a bit stagnant, and that's where all the mosquitoes breed. Yeah, so a lot of people that are stuck on their problems or stuck on their way of thinking, they, they're the, they're that stenchy water, I call them. And I'm like, you've got to get back in the flow and you've got to lighten up a little bit and you're going to not be so serious and you've just got to— life's going to flow. You know, we get too bogged down on these little micro details sometimes. So yes, that's how I do my best work. But I do challenge myself to flow a little bit sometimes in, in areas that is a bit more uncomfortable and the moon's not in the right place.

Josh: And what do you say to clients who say, I can't get to where I want to be until I'm in the CEO position, and that CEO is not going to be moving for the next 5 years, so I'm going to have to stay here, or I'm not going to be able to do the things I want to do until I have this house, or I, you know, set this on my path. How do you, um, coach through something?

Shannah: Well, I think you've got to believe you're already that person, and what would that person be telling you to do today? You know, you've got to tap into that person and that dream and that vision And that's— we do a lot of vision creation work where, you know, who is your— who are you in 3 years' time? So what— how old are you? So we just think about how old you are in 3 years' time.

Josh: That's how old you will be.

Tommy: Yeah, 34.

Josh: I'll be— what, I'm 29 this week, so that means I'll be 32.

Shannah: Right, so tap into that person.

Josh: Ronk's doing maths. We should do that as a snippet. That's great.

Shannah: She's like calculating over there. So for me, I'll be in my 50s and it's about embracing that and saying, well, well, what do I want then? So I'm pretty clear I want to be the CEO of the house or whatever it might be, but it's about having the dream and being excited by that. But then coming into today and going, I'm going to rock today because I know where I'm going. I know where I want to drive my car. I know where I want to get to. So how can I make today an awesome part of the adventure and not just, I've got to drive along to get to that spot. I've just— you've got to really— I think if you do have a great vision and you're really emotionally connected to it and you really want it, you can really dip into today and really enjoy it and challenge yourself and look for the opportunities.

Tommy: I really enjoy going to a cafe and just doing a bit of work from a cafe and having a coffee and just, you know, my favourite place.

Josh: Sarah Jessica Parker.

Tommy: Yeah, almost. But I had a really—

Shannah: I like doing emails there.

Tommy: Yeah, I like doing emails. What I realised though was when I was at this particular cafe in the window, I don't like going to the cafe if I'm actually really busy and I've got a— as in I've got actually a lot of shit I need to get through. I enjoy when I haven't got much on and then that's the peace. I'm just in my laptop, just, oh, I might shoot one off.

Shannah: This is that freedom thing you're tapping into when you're a traveler. Yeah, that's how you're behaving, like you're this nomad, and you're probably tapping into that.

Tommy: But my, the hard thing to rectify my brain is there is a lot of work, and I've seen what they've done here and any of the successes I've had in my life. It requires a whole heap of work, and sometimes it's a bit crazy. And so I then look to that moment of me in the window in the cafe having not much on as the destination.

Shannah: Yeah.

Tommy: But then I, then I struggle going that's actually not going to get me to where I want to go sitting in the window.

Josh: There's no friction there.

Shannah: Well, maybe it is. Maybe it is because it's a bit like, you know, we're talking about athletes and for you boys as well and for everybody, every human, we need pauses. We need— it's like, I'm going to write a book called Life's Like a Tomato Plant. We need pauses. We need, you know, you water a little bit. We can't just flood it and then nothing and flood it and nothing. So we need Like with the athlete, they go and compete and they train and they train, and the hardest part for them is the time off because that's when you're refueling. But your brain's saying, Johnny over there is still training, so they're going to beat me. But actually it's your refuelling and your pausing that's going to make you really powerful at the finish line because he's going to be burnt out and exhausted. So it's about valuing those pauses or allowing yourself to be in that cafe and having the coffee and enjoying that, saying this is, this is also a really valuable part of this journey because the things are dropping in your brain and your thoughts are dropping and you're giving yourself a bit of space. Space is powerful.

Tommy: And overwhelm is not, not nice. When there's, when you, what, what, what's your approach with overwhelm and when people, because I could imagine a bunch of corporates, none of them can breathe.

Shannah: Yeah, so no one can breathe. They're doing their shallow breathing. You see people running around, I'm going to run to the toilet, run back out to do some more work. And, and, and it's— you can watch it, and it's, it's beautiful to watch. When I go into corporates and I'm like, wow, look at all these minions. No one's breathing or connected to themselves or powerful. It's the ones that walk slower, it's the one that are breathing properly. They're the people with a presence. And they're the powerful ones with an aura, not all the crazies. So it's about— overwhelm is about checking in with the mirror and saying, I'm just overwhelmed and my heart's racing and I can't breathe properly. And it's about what is your tool and your strategy to slow it down, because it's in the slowing down that we can be powerful and move forward.

Tommy: What are the causes of overwhelm that you've seen in your clients?

Shannah: No boundaries, no great habits of structure. So we talk about the bookends of the day is how you start and finish the day, your first and last hour of the day, and what are the habits that you have so that you feel grounded and supported and you're breathing properly and you're connecting with what you're doing in yourself. And the rest of your day can be manic, but if you have no— none of that from the— the first thing you touch in the morning is your phone to turn the alarm off and then cheque everything and start all these stress responses. And you run through the whole day and you finish the day with the phone in your hand scrolling a bit more and shoving a bit more into your brain, how can you possibly be performing at your peak? It's not possible.

Tommy: I've got disappointed in myself at times, and having a child, young child, where I don't get much time with him in the day because he goes to daycare, I'm at work, gotta pay the bills, and then that nighttime where I I might have an experience of overwhelm or lots going on or just a bit brain fried, and then you end up being in that zone. And then I go, oh, I should, I need to spend time with my son.

Shannah: That's boundaries. So, you know, in our house, everything by 9 o'clock is off. So my teenagers don't like me very much. You're giving them spa, so you're making it hard for them. Yeah, we've got this hot tub in the backyard. So, um, And no one's allowed to have any technology in their bedrooms. So I have to be the role model for that to teach them we don't want to sleep with a phone. That's your safe haven. That is where you're going to sleep. That is not where we're going to fire up the neural pathways in your brain for addiction and gambling while you're in the safety of your beautiful doona. So when you have boundaries, it's really interesting. After I take the phones away and the iPads and laptops and everything goes away.

Tommy: It's a big box now to go around.

Shannah: Do the house. We've got a cupboard. We've got a big cupboard for 4 of us.

Tommy: Yeah.

Shannah: So it's really amazing. The whole energy of the house just goes, oh, thank God she did that. And then we start talking and then we can watch a show together or we can watch the footy together or we can bond as a family. But if you have 4 people sitting on the couch going like this, that's just 4 people coexisting. That's not being a family. So it's about thinking again, self-connection, what works for me and what doesn't work for me. And I know when I'm aimlessly scrolling, I get overwhelmed. My brain just starts going, I could do more, I could do more. And why am I doing that? And why am I doing that? Why am I not doing what that life coach is doing? And she's speaking on that stage and I want to speak on that stage. And oh, it is not healthy. So the boundaries are really, really important.

Josh: Feels like there's two types of people when they go on holidays. It's either the ones that will put an autoresponder on for their email, or the ones that will, and they'll get back to you when they're back. Or there's the ones that will be constantly checking their email and sorting it out because the idea of coming back to a big inbox is more stressful.

Shannah: So you've got to do what works for you. That's this recipe thing. So I know with my husband, there's no possible way that could happen because his athletes are competing all over the world, blah, blah, blah. So when we travel, it's really funny. We go, okay, we'll have 20 minutes in the morning after breakfast, after we've been with the kids. Everyone, you can cheque your stuff. And then before dinner, we do another half-hour session. So it's probably 1 hour out of the day, and then everyone feels like, okay, it's okay, it's all in order. I've sorted that, I've told someone to do that, and I've outsourced that, and the kids have connected with their friends, and then everyone's fine. So it's, it's, it's trying to work out the recipe, I think, that works for your family or for you personally.

Tommy: I mean, we've spoken to people that their storey they tell is that it works for me to be in my phone all the time. And then we've always tried to understand, is it?

Josh: Well, there seems to be a counter.

Shannah: I question that.

Josh: Yeah, I think there's a counter. The counter at the moment, I think, to the switching off is, oh no, I'm fine. Like social media doesn't bother me and I can keep going.

Shannah: But what could they do with that time?

Josh: I think that, that is the thing. It's like, what's— who's it for? What's it for? Why are you doing— why are we doing this? And I guess to the point of, if you have a business that is a social media business, or if you're doing something that is, you know, like, that's to the core, there is a case for that having more value, value. But you need to understand that that's a job.

Shannah: So who are they without their job?

Josh: Yeah.

Shannah: So if you took the job away, which is their social media, whatever, um, that's where the depression is because they're so disconnected from self. And I will, I will say that till the cows come home, then they could talk me blue in the face. But if I said I'm going to take it away, who are you? They won't know. And it's a really frightening place to be. And that's why people end up taking pills and, you know, looking at other coping strategies because there will be a time when that won't serve them anymore.

Josh: So who are you beyond a life coach? How do you, how do you answer that?

Shannah: Who am I? Life coaching is what I do, but me, the person, I'm motivated. I love my yoga, I love walking, I love my family, love my home. It's my sanctuary, so I put a lot of energy into my home. I love reading books and challenging myself and Yeah. And so there's whatever I choose to do, it just has to fulfil me.

Josh: Yeah. The, um, the audiobook stuff's interesting that you talk about, that, that's sort of a way for you to, um, disconnect or do something different or go for a walk. Because I've fallen into late having an audiobook every night going to sleep.

Shannah: Yeah.

Josh: And that thing, and I guess every— the, the main thing I guess you take out of The book is Everyone Is Different. It's your version isn't necessarily the right version. And for Tommy, it's very different than it is for me. How do people work out whether this is what I want versus this is what society says that I want?

Shannah: Well, you can't find the answer to that question if you're in overwhelm and running on the treadmill and trying to do more all the time. It's in the pause. Causes that you find the answer to those questions. Because you then go, actually, that's not even working for me. Why am I doing that?

Tommy: Yeah.

Shannah: So if taking the phone away at 9 PM is causing super anxiety, I need to go and challenge that and why that's happening. Or— and it's going back to your values. So I try and live by my own set of values, which is number one is health, because it's compromised. So it has to be my number one. And that's physical, mental, emotional, and spiritual. One of my— that's my job. That's who I work for, the business of me. The second one for me is family. And that doesn't mean, is my family happy? Because teenagers, that doesn't happen all the time. You can't really control it. So am I showing up being the best version of myself? Am I being a fun wife? Am I being a warm and nurturing mum? Because that's what I signed up to be. So if I can't bring that to the table, then I maybe need to look at why am I overloading so much work onto myself? For what? What am I doing that for? I coach so many people with gazillion dollars and they go, what was I doing that for? Because all that value stuff is forgotten and now I've got nobody, or I'm not fulfilled, or I'm depressed, or whatever it is. And the third one for me is achievement. I need to achieve every day. And so sometimes doing a meditation is harder for me than writing a book. But I need to value that the meditation was more important than writing the book because it'll give me longevity, it'll unscramble my brain. Or you going to the café, you need to value that that's a really important part. I mean, puzzle—

Tommy: these things are hard when you're in a relationship, a business partnership, because sometimes it, it could almost seem selfish that you're putting in the effort to better yourself before putting the effort to the other side. It's not what I think. I think, you know, I feel like I've got my exercise rule, my meditation rule. And so there's been times where I've had to say, like, put my wife in a bad position, and I can feel a bit of guilt, but then I'm like, ah, I need to do this for me.

Shannah: Because then you're a happier person, or you'll show up better for the family, or you'll show up better here.

Tommy: What if you don't have the support though from the partnership?

Shannah: You know, like, yeah, it's difficult. Well, that's the communication has to come in. So, um, you know, my, my, I go to a health retreat every year for a week and, you know, um, at one time my daughter was at the dinner table and she said, oh, why do you have to go away, Mum? And my husband chipped in straight away and he said, do you want your mum to be happy? Oh, do you want her to be happy all year? Or do you want her to feel a little bit resentful or whatever it might be?

Josh: Like you jumped in because you're about to blow up.

Tommy: Yeah, I was about to blow up.

Shannah: And it was really good because it was like, we, we, like, my husband travels quite a bit too, so we have a lot of logistics in our house. And but we love it. We like, this is like a super exciting life. Can you believe this is our lifestyle? No week is ever the same. It's awesome. And we really embrace it and and look at it as a big positive, whereas some people going, oh, but you know, it's a lot of work and it's this. But we're like, oh, we've got these adventures that we're on all the time. It's really exciting. But yeah, the going away is, is, you know, for my family, you know, I've had to sort of train them that it's actually really important for me to go and be still, to get creative, to reflect on the year, to make sure I can turn up being the best version of myself for the next year with some good goals for myself, with some great habits for myself. And that's what I like to do, but that's not for everybody, of course.

Josh: Non-negotiables, you talk about them a bit. I remember the first time hearing about non-negotiables. I had a boss who had been away for a month, and I ended up having a couple of people that I was sort of reporting to. I did all of this different work. I was working the hardest that I'd ever worked. And they came back and they said, "Oh, did you do this, this, and this?" I was like, "Oh no.", but I look at all this other stuff that I did. And it was like a big lesson in focus and non-negotiables and what things actually matter. What are your non-negotiables at the moment and how often are they changing?

Shannah: My non-negotiables is moving my body because when I don't, I feel like chronic fatigue just comes in. So it doesn't matter what the weather is, I have to move my body and I have to get up early and I have to do it. So it's either walking or yoga or gym. Non-negotiable. I don't care what sport's on with the kids, mum's got to go first. What about if you get a cold? Yeah, that's really challenging for my mind, so I have to allow myself— that's that thing— flow a bit.

Josh: And do you think— is it the physical action, or is it mentally saying, I am in control and I'm doing the thing?

Shannah: Yeah, I think it's both. Yeah, but I'm a lot kinder to myself now. I don't I don't hurt myself anymore. Don't push too hard.

Josh: Well, it's like food. I think that's a big one with food. It's the, um, I think a lot of people are in those cycles of, I'm just going to eat that thing. It doesn't make them feel good. And they also made a bad choice and it becomes this cycle.

Shannah: And a lot of the time, um, you know, with my kids when they're in primary school, non-negotiable was mum's going to meditate for 10 minutes. And I put my big headphones on and I'd say, you know, mum's got the headphones on. Don't And they go, we know, we know you've got your 10 minutes. And I'd just sit there and I'd put the noise-cancelling headphones on. It was non-negotiable for me because it really did unscramble my mind and it gave me energy to then go and cook the dinner, do the homework, do the sport, you know, after-school sports stuff. So they knew that Mum just needs that 10 minutes. So it's just what's important to you, I think.

Josh: For the next generation, for younger people who are going to start entering into the workplace, what do you see as the competitive advantage that a young person can have in 2019? What sort of skills, what sort of non-negotiables should they, could they be looking at, or what questions should they be asking themselves?

Shannah: I think they need to really challenge themselves to be on their journey and not other people's journey, because I think with the introduction of social media, that's become a lost skill. Whereas, you know, when you were— well, you probably weren't my age, you were at my age at school, you know, if, if so-and-so wanted to be a nurse, they just wanted to be a nurse, and you wanted to be a secretary, you wanted to be— there wasn't this, oh well, you know, everyone's being a nurse, I should be a nurse. You were sort of— there wasn't all this comparison in your face the whole time, whereas now it sort of follows you everywhere, what everyone's doing, and it's this underlying obligation that, yep, I'll just fit in and join in. Is, I think the skill is really going to be these life skills. It's about sticking to your values, making decisions that work for you, constantly asking yourself the powerful questions that keep you in tune with yourself, and backing yourself and having faith in yourself and trusting yourself and trying those things.

Josh: There's also a move in this world, it seems, to remove friction. So it's like food delivery is really easy. Get, you know, the amount of human interaction you have seems to be reducing. When is friction good? When is finding the easier path good versus when should you lean in the thing that's going to actually take more effort?

Shannah: Well, it's about your values. Like what do you think is important? So, you know, for me, food's not that important. I'm not a foodie, so for me it's just food and I just eat it and try and be healthy. But some people are really obsessed by it and want to put all the time in. My business partner's a full foodie, so she grows her own vegetables. The amount of time and effort that she puts into food is staggering, but that really fulfils her and is important to her. For me, not important. It's just fuel. I'll put in good fuel, but I'm not putting in all the the love and the energy.

Josh: Is there a mindfulness still to that? Because I guess you can, when you think about that sort of stressed, overworked person, they're making unconscious choices where they're just eating crap while they're driving.

Shannah: So it's about checking in with yourself. Is it working? So for me, that works because breathing is more important to me. The slower that I can breathe, and when I'm driving my car and I push the bottom half of the seat belt out, that's my challenge. I've got a little sticky on the dash that says breathe. If I can breathe and podcast, it says, so if I can breathe and learn something while I'm driving, oh, I just feel powerful and I can be creative and I can do anything I want and I can solve all these problems. And that's my little strategy. But for her, it's silence and nourishing. So everyone's got their own. No one's the same. So that's why I don't like to give advice, because you've got to really tap into What, what are the things that are going to be important for you on your journey? But I think for the next generation, it's self-connection because they've lost it. They don't know. And even at school, you know, everyone that does the running race gets a ribbon. Everyone's— everyone wants just to be the same. No one wants to stand out anymore.

Tommy: It seems like the formula for, you know, varying success is sticking at something. But the hardest bit is working out how to stick at something. Yeah, so showing up every day or going to the gym every morning, like all these things sound super easy, but the complexity is in the actual action.

Shannah: Yeah, the soft skills are the hardest. Absolutely. So it's what, what do you do to support yourself to be able to do that is really important. So for me, you know, there's reminders on my phone, my mirror in the bathroom. You'll just laugh at this, but I use whiteboard markers. It's full. Of words. It's full. So it says, today is easy and effortless. I feel terrific. Responsibility versus blame. My values are big and in the middle. So every day I'm in the shower, I can just see, that's how I'm programming my brain today. So most people don't have a visual, and that's why they fall off. So if you had your screensaver as someone lifting weights and you wanted to go to the gym every day, well, if you saw that person every single day in your brain, it would help you go to the gym because you'd be connected to that person saying, well, they didn't get those muscles by sitting on the couch. Yeah, they got them before. So you need that reminder, I think. So you need a strategy. That's why I call myself a life strategist and a life coach. But you need a strategy to support the goal. And you can't just say, I think I'm going to eat healthier, or, you know, I'm going to go to the gym every day. You need a strategy. What time? How's it work? It's like brushing your teeth, you know, that Brushing your teeth was drilled into you as a child, you know, teaching your kid to do it twice a day so that it is so ingrained that they don't even think about it. So for me, it's so ingrained, I don't think about it.

Josh: It seems like Australians could potentially look at some of this stuff and be like, ah, it's a bit wanky, you know, like focusing on this or that. Is that been something that you've had to push back on? Are there people who are like, that don't want to enter that space of having the, you know, the stuff that will actually help them, the self-help, and then pushing back on it.

Shannah: Sometimes, like, I get a lot of inquiries and I can tell in a minute, oh, it's going to be a draining client because they're not going to do it. Whereas I tend to say I'm full to them and I don't take them because it's just draining. They just want a cup of tea and they want to talk about what they want to do, but they're actually not going to do it. Yeah, they're not ready. You've got to be ready. And I think until you hit that crisis, as we were talking about, that's when people are ready. That's when they make great change. Or they're people that are real go-getters who, who, who think, I need a bit of support, but I need a strategy and a structure. They do it. They are awesome. And sometimes some people email me every day. Yep, I went for my walk or whatever it is. But that accountability factor is actually really powerful for them because they're not accountable to anyone but yourself.

Tommy: And then if you can hack it where you're only accountable to yourself, as in— yeah, that is really tough.

Shannah: I wouldn't do that. No, because I don't often feel like getting up at 5:30 for myself. Who's— who's— is it my husband next to you? Yeah, he's like, come on, let's go. Or I've got to meet my friends at the corner in the dark under the lamppost, and if I don't go, they're going to call me soft. So I've got— I've just got to go. And it's a bit windy and rainy, and I'm like, oh, I don't want to do I will, I will cop it so badly that I go, or I've booked the yoga class the day before. So everything is, everything is booked the night before. So we say tomorrow starts today. Everything tonight I know is going to happen tomorrow. So the clothes are out ready. So I feel I would feel so guilty if I didn't put those clothes on. So it's just, it's a structure, but doing it all just for yourself. It's pretty dangerous.

Tommy: Yeah, I mean, Josh and I sticking at this podcast, it's definitely been the two of us. When I don't feel like it.

Shannah: Supporting each other through. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Josh: You're a craftsperson as well, because like looking at The Life Plan, your book, it is one of those books that you can have on your coffee table.

Tommy: Amy got in bed last night, my wife, and she said, are you reading a cooking book? Like, it looks beautiful and it looks like it's a coffee table book is what she said.

Shannah: I see, that's music to my ears because I went went to Penguin, I said, I want a Donna Kay cookbook. It's life skills. And they looked at me like, what do you mean? And I said, all the books on the shelf are so boring, um, and they've got great content, but I can never get through them because they're too boring. It goes— it's too long in one topic for me. So how can I give them short recipes? So it's like the Jamie Oliver, you know, meals in 10 minutes. So each skill is broken right down into what's essential and how to do it, etc., and what the powerful questions are. And I wanted it to look pretty so that you'd keep it on your coffee table and you wouldn't put it on the shelf, whereas everything else goes on the shelf. And so Sharon Cairns was a photographer, and, and we spent 3 days, and every single page, the photo was taken for that page. Amazing.

Tommy: You should have whacked a porridge recipe in there. Yeah, we should have at the end.

Shannah: But I had this vision, and it was really clear about how can we make life skills look good because they're not taught at school. We never learn values and vision and proper goal setting and all of that at school. We never learn it. And if you don't go to conferences in the corporate world and you're stuck in the middle, how do you learn it? And that's why I wrote the book. Um, I'm really passionate about teaching people life and wellness skills for coping strategies for, for life, really, for their whole family. So I said, yeah, I think it has to look nice.

Josh: And I think from a strategic point of view too, it's not something, it's not the type of book that you read once, you've worked it out and then you put it away. It is that reference guide. Like I think it's, there's a few books, there's one called Daily Rituals, which I have the audiobook and that calms me because it's like I can just hear artists and philosophers and different people and how they go through their day. And it sort of creates almost a routine for myself.

Shannah: So, they've got habits. Yeah. They've got a structure.

Josh: And I think that this is almost the next step of that. It's being able to say, oh, like, what are some of those centering questions? What are the— What's a little recipe that I can put together today that I can implement tomorrow or this week? I guess that's one of the things that I've learned. It's like everyone wants everything done straight away. They want to go from like their self that they're not completely happy with and then wake up and be their perfect self. I guess this is a great reflection on that these things take time and that you need to iterate, and it's one step at a time and one action, one routine, one— you need to embrace that.

Shannah: Yeah, I love it. And so it's this awesome, exciting journey to get back in control, to get off that treadmill of life that's overwhelm and everyone else, and it's this really fun ride because you're checking in with yourself every day. You've got your values there as your base plate. You've got your vision, you've got some goals, you've got some great boundaries. And if that's who you work for, that's who you are without your job. Yeah. And that's a really fulfilling place to be. And a lot of the people who are high achievers come to me and they lack fulfillment. It's hollow.

Tommy: It's never too late to work out your values.

Shannah: Never too late. It's super exciting. And when they do, the light globes go on. They are like, this is awesome. Yeah. This is my new job. And I'm like, yes, this is the best job.

Josh: That's so good. Shanna, thanks for coming on the show. I think it would be very cool. I think what we should do, TJ, is pick a page each, fill it out, and then post it on our Insta storeys and see how different.

Tommy: I love the options of the values. So there's like a bit of a menu, which I think it's helpful because the thing about questions being written somewhere is my brain doesn't come up with these. To be honest, I'm not that smart. Mine either.

Josh: You're smart enough to put them here. What's the overwhelm? If you try, it's the paradox of choice. If you've got too much, you know, if we don't have constraints, it's very hard to move forward. And especially when you are in the fog, you are in the dip, everything seems way harder. And so this is that recipe of being able to say, here's actually something that I can focus on.

Shannah: This is about clarity. So most I get emails every week. I read the book, I've got clarity. I have a clear vision now. I've got all the fog has gone because I've just totally centred myself again. So you pick it up and put it down, you know, once a year or whatever. You recenter yourself, you reground yourself, and you'll find clarity for the year.

Tommy: Awesome. Thank you so much for coming on.

Shannah: Thanks for having me.

Josh: It's a Daily Talk Show. Hi@thedailytalkshow.com if you want to send us an email. If you've enjoyed the show, take a screen grab, share it on Instagram. Also, Apple Podcast reviews are appreciated. Otherwise, uh, we'll see tomorrow. See you guys.

Shannah: Thanks for having me.