Reframing Politics With Ruth McGowan OAM

Josh: It's The Daily Talk Show, episode 341.

Tommy: Welcome, Ruth McGowan.

Ruth: G'day, fellas. How are you? Good.

Josh: Ruth McGowan, uh, OAM, so Order of Australia. Can you explain how does that come about? Because we've got a lot of international, uh, listeners and also just a couple of gronks who know nothing About anything.

Tommy: About how you get that on the end of your name. It's no small feat.

Ruth: No, so Australia has a national honour system which recognises outstanding contributions by ordinary citizens to the nation, and there's 4 levels of medals affectionately known as the gongs. And it actually—

Josh: was it gongs did you say?

Ruth: Gong.

Josh: Gong.

Tommy: Oh, the gong.

Ruth: Gong.

Josh: Okay, yeah, great.

Ruth: It actually arose from the British Order of Medals, and in 1975 the Prime Minister at the time, Gough Whitlam, who I think You're a bit of a fan of Gough, aren't you?

Josh: I don't know, I don't know anything.

Tommy: Is that a troll?

Ruth: Gough said we're going to have an Australian honour system, we need our own, we're a sovereign country. So he started the Order of Australian Medals about 43 years ago, and you have an OAM or AO or an OM or a Companion, and that's the top level. So there's 4 levels. Um, over those 43 years, most of the gongs have gone to men, 2/3 have gone to men. So I've actually co-founded a movement to get more women recognised for their outstanding contributions.

Tommy: And what did you, uh, what did you get the Gong for?

Ruth: So I got mine for community service to local government and also to disability support action groups. So I've long been involved as a volunteer as well as my paid work, but I really believe in contributing to the community. So I did that for many years, and people anonymously nominate you for a Gong. You don't know who's done it. So, um, yeah, I got to work.

Josh: Who did it?

Tommy: We still don't know.

Ruth: No, I still don't know. So I got my Order of Australia.

Tommy: Should we tell her?

Ruth: 5 years ago.

Josh: It was Josh. It definitely was. It definitely was.

Ruth: Yeah. So I just encourage anyone, if you know someone that's an outstanding citizen, go online to the Orders of Australia and write a nomination and help get that recognised and honored.

Josh: What did it mean to you when you, when you were nominated?

Ruth: Oh, look, you get this envelope covered in gold from the Governor-General. And I'm going, "Jeez, what's this?" So I opened it up and it was, "You have been nominated." And I started crying. Like I was just overwhelmed and quite humble. And your first thought often is, "I don't deserve this. There are so many other people out there that deserve it." And then I realised, well, to accept it is— I'm actually being a role model for other people, other women, young country women that you can keep continuing to contribute. And there are people out there that recognise what you're doing, which is really nice. And it comes with a bit of gravitas. Yeah, that, um, I can walk into a room and I've actually got— I wear this with pride, which is a little secret, secret symbol that you've got an honor. Oh, do you ever see them around on people?

Josh: I have never noticed.

Tommy: It's not like too flashy, it's just, it's very understated.

Josh: Can you get a bigger one?

Ruth: Certain occasions there are much bigger medals. So there's occasions you go to, um, to the Governor General's house and it's got medals may be worn, and then you can wear your thing. So I've not only got the chest, I've got the medal to put it on.

Tommy: Hey, wrong way around.

Ruth: I've got the medal and the chest to put it on.

Tommy: The way, uh, you and Josh met, I mean, you were probably one of the only survivors of a road trip that Josh has gone on because he talks their ear off. Um, but you did survive. You guys worked together creating a film about the Murray-Darling Basin. I did watch that, it was amazing, really amazing. Um, what was that experience like just, uh, going on a road trip with Josh, who was not someone you knew, but you travelled the distance together?

Josh: Yeah, how long did we do it? It was like, was it a week or something? Yeah, yeah.

Ruth: So I was given a project. I'm actually an agricultural scientist, I have an honours and master's degree in that area. To do a documentary on the socioeconomic impacts of the Murray-Darling Basin Plan, which if that sounds a bit dry, it's not actually. So, so part of this documentary was interviewing farmers and business owners and people out in the community and also doing some social research. So we had quite a big project, but the documentary was— I wanted something that was uplifting and sparkling and I wanted a hipster from Melbourne to make it. So I got this dude to make it. So we went on this road trip and Yeah, I met Josh at the airport, then we flew to Mildura.

Josh: Oh, that's right. We actually got on a plane for that.

Ruth: Yeah. And I was— yeah, we flew there because that's about a 9-hour drive up to the edge of the state and got there. And the first thing that happened was Josh left the drone box behind in the car park.

Josh: I forgot all of this.

Ruth: Yeah.

Josh: So clearly.

Ruth: So we went off and we're doing the shots and then he went out to get the fancy schmancy drone and it's not in the car.

Josh: It was at the rental car place.

Ruth: Yeah. So it was like, oh shit. That we had to drive back. And being country people, which you know, they've— they picked it up and were waiting for us to come back.

Tommy: Very honest in the country. I mean, when you refer to me as a country person, I lived in Shepparton for a few years, but I did get to sort of have a greater understanding, which has since left my mind because I haven't lived there for a few years, around the sort of local government we were having on, you know, the mayor. I think it was Jenny Houlihan. I actually saw that we are mutual friends with Damien Willoughby, who works at the Shepparton Council.

Ruth: Yeah.

Tommy: And so he was my programme director, you know, doing the air cheques afterwards.

Ruth: Hey Damien.

Tommy: Yeah. Shout out to Damien. Yeah, he's a great bloke.

Ruth: But the other thing I was going to say, so, so Josh took some fantastic footage and we'd get up at Sparrows Fart and go out in the Murray. Gorgeous landscapes. We went out in the desert and the only thing that got us through in the mornings was the long black. And also he introduced me to bloody Maccas hot hash browns. 'Cause they're open 24/7. And so we'd go there and you got, nah, once you've had one, you'll never go back.

Tommy: You'd never had a hash brown? No. Was it Maccas hash brown?

Josh: Is that what you had?

Ruth: Yeah.

Josh: And so Ruth—

Ruth: Maccas hash brown. I don't eat at Maccas.

Tommy: It's a good thing.

Josh: And so yeah, I remember I sort of pushed you into giving it a go.

Tommy: He's ticking all those boxes, bad influence on a road trip.

Josh: If you're going to have Maccas, a road trip, is a good, a good time to, to have it. Yeah, you're pretty, uh, you're pretty healthy, I'd say. Like, um, I remember you sort of giving me— not lecturing, but you were sort of suggesting of different health, health things that you could do. Uh, you had a health scare. Was that the sort of the reason for the getting healthy? Have you always been that way?

Ruth: Um, look, I think I've been vegetarian for about 14 years, so So being a scientist, I looked at the evidence of diets, and meat-eating diets are not healthy for— well, they increase your risk. A little bit of protein's okay, but in terms of the cancers, it hits your risk, increases your risk. So probably about 10 years ago, I got a diagnosis of lymphoma cancer, and that really changed my focus much more, looking at what I ate and doing exercise and meditation. And yeah, I took some time off to get well, And it's been 10 years and I'm still in remission.

Josh: Yeah. And so, uh, 2006 was the year that you rocked up to the council chambers because there were local issues and you were a pissed-off resident and you went to, um, you know, make some change or see, see what the deal was. What was that experience like?

Ruth: Um, so I've written a book recently called Get Elected, and it's a step-by-step Campaign Guide to Winning Elections. And in the book, I unpack why would you run for council, how to plan, how to run, and then what to do next. Not just council, but also state and federal government.

Josh: Yeah.

Ruth: And I talk about— there's often 3 reasons why people get interested in politics. And the first reason is that they're pissed off about something. Yeah. Good Australian term.

Josh: Yeah.

Ruth: Um, the second is that they're passionate about something and they want to change it. And the third is that they're into politics as a way of changing the world. Sometimes it's a combination of all three. In my case, I went, um, to the council chambers. I'd never been in the council chamber before. So the chamber is the big meeting room where all the councillors meet. Yeah. And they were going to put up a planning application that our community didn't agree with, in a local planning issue. And so I went and spoke on behalf of my community, and we got it stopped. But I looked around the room and there was 9 councillors and 5 senior executives, and they were all men. So there's 14 men making the decisions for our community. And I was a little bit pissed off about that. I just thought, how can, how can all these blokes make the decisions for our community? And the next week I saw the mayor down the street, and I knew him quite well, which is such a country town thing, right?

Josh: Was he just eating a meat pie or something? And I just went up and I said, 'What are you blokes doing?

Ruth: How can you think you can make all these decisions for the community and you don't even have any women there?' And he said, 'We want women to run, they just don't run. You know, why don't you think about it?' And it was— put that seed, um, in my brain. I think he regretted it because it was a by-election a couple of months later and I threw my hat in the ring and I got elected. Yeah. So then it was me and 8 other blokes, and the youngest bloke that was pretty similar your age. He said, I'm so glad you've come on because now they'll stop picking on me and they'll start picking on you.

Tommy: Was it true?

Ruth: It was true. And, um, when you say pick them, what does that mean? Like bullying, harassment? They tried to unsettle me. And that's the political—

Tommy: so it was quite dark.

Ruth: Yeah, yeah, the dark arts of politics.

Josh: Yeah.

Ruth: So I worked really hard to get more women to run, and next time 5 of those blokes got kicked out.

Josh: Yeah.

Ruth: And we got 4 more women in, and we've never gone back to those days of all-male councils because we have an activated community now that just expects gender balance, and they wouldn't put up for anything else. And also we have young people running. I was the first councillor that ever had kids at primary school elected, so I could talk about those issues in the community. And that's why we need diversity, because we have a range of views from young, old, you know across all the spectrum.

Tommy: So the third thing is, um, people who are interested in politics are the ones who run. I find it, you know, like, I guess looking around my friendship circle, it's not something that is jumping out at them. And I think I went to a private school here in Melbourne. I can think about the people that I went there, which I would think would be the ones who would more likely be into it, but I don't know anyone within my reach who is really into it. If anything, it's the American politics that people start diving into. We've got 3D Deal here from Canada, and he said when he came here, he goes, "Oh, I'm so glad no one's talking about Trump," because over in Canada there's a lot of noise around that. And it's, how do you, I mean, how do we shift this and get people actually interested? What have you found from talking to the masses?

Ruth: Well, I challenge you on that, because remember the marriage equality debate. So a lot of people talked about that, and why do we need a plebiscite? Why can't the politicians just make the decision in federal parliament, Tick the box, make it so. And lots of people got activated from not just the LGBTIQ+ community but across Australia that this is fair.

Josh: Yeah.

Ruth: So a lot of people actually got enrolled. There was more hundreds and thousands of people that got activated. Young people got enrolled. So when politics hits the heart and the back pocket nerve, there are a lot of people on Newstart that cannot find rental accommodation. So That's— there's join the dots. That's politics. The other thing is the climate change. So you say you don't talk to people. Well, what about the school climate change? Yeah, climate change and the frustration that the government in power at the moment isn't doing enough is activating people. They're so passionate about climate change, they're running on that issue. Kids are marching. So maybe it skipped your generation and it's these primary school, high school kids that are coming through and, get out of the way, Gen X, Y, Z boomers, you've stuffed it up for us, give us a crack at it.

Josh: Yeah, well, I guess it's playing into that pissed off bit, right, that you talk about Mr. 97's, uh, brother Jamesy. Uh, how old is he?

Tommy: Uh, 17.

Josh: 17. And he was actually at the, um, uh, climate change rally and all that sort of thing. And so there's a huge amount that's going on. And it's even the other thing too is we're learning so much through Mr. 97 and Jamesy because he's teaching so much about like all different— even the, the other thing, even like, um, pronouns and all that sort of thing, like I keep accidentally saying he or all that sort of like this, all these things that we've just got ingrained, which isn't— I think that people can take it as a criticism on us for not knowing. But I think being able to say we've just got no fucking idea what's happening and being willing to listen and say, okay, well, what are these things? How can we change? How are we developing? I think that's really important. Especially for, you know, younger people who are coming up. They're going to be the ones who are going to be left with all this stuff.

Ruth: And, and they're sick of you, us, being slack.

Josh: Yeah.

Ruth: So when we think of politics as, you know, Parliament, Canberra House, we're actually disenfranchising the youth. So if you just put in your brain, activism is politics. Yeah, it's 101 politics. So these young kids getting active They're being political and they're taking it back.

Josh: Yeah.

Ruth: And I think if you stand around complaining and don't do anything to change, then you actually forfeit your right to complain. You know, shut the heck up, get out and do something and get out there and vote for people that support what you want to see in the planet and changing. And, you know, I would also encourage people to get involved in political campaigns. There's lots of young people running. Local, state, and federal, and get involved and see how politics works because you actually can't afford to disengage.

Josh: Yeah, I, uh, on this street here there was, uh, signs when we rocked up, uh, Luke Creasy. He was, uh, all over the, all over the place, and, uh, he's an example of someone who should have read your book.

Ruth: Yep, he should have. Page 237, which 237 is delete your social media footprint before before you even run.

Josh: And so part of that is what I find really interesting is, you know, we say dumb shit that we regret. We say things that from a social media standpoint, there is— everyone's constantly evolving. We're all evolving and we say, you know, and so to your point of deleting that stuff, is the deleting the stuff is that—

Tommy: I think just say what Luke Christie did. He's a 29-year-old He's a young guy in politics. He's probably— he's our generation. And years ago he liked something that was a bit risqué in today's—

Ruth: But it was a rape joke. Yep.

Tommy: I mean, I read through his tweets, through the comments and what he liked. And if it was someone to my right that wasn't running for politics, I probably wouldn't even notice. But then in his circumstance, he is going for that seat and representing everyone. And he said a few things that a lot of people don't like. And so he's now withdrawn from running for a seat in Labor.

Josh: I guess, I guess my, my question is, to your point of deleting it, yeah, deleting it would remove the thing that we now know, like the things that he did. What I'm curious about is, is that, uh, is that the best way of doing it? I mean, is it just one of those things where it's like, have we all got things that we regret and it's about removing them from history so they don't come up?

Ruth: Well, it's interesting, you know, because if intrinsically you're a sexist, racist, homophobic, transphobic— yeah, dick.

Josh: Yeah.

Ruth: Like, should you even run for politics? Yeah, well, go. There's plenty of parties that will support you on that in the far right.

Josh: Yeah.

Ruth: Pauline Hanson's One Nation, you know, bring it on. She's already had to disendorse a number of candidates. But, you know, I would imagine that, that those views, if you hold them and you think it's a funny joke.

Josh: Yeah.

Ruth: Then does a leopard change its spots? I don't know. Whereas there's a great candidate running here, um, that I know of for the Reason Party, and her name's Judy Ryan, and she just lives down the street from here, and she's a really compassionate woman and got really concerned about coming out every day and seeing people overdosed and dying in the street.

Josh: That's a big issue, big issue around here.

Ruth: So she was an activist for the, um self-injecting facility here, and now she's running for this party. So she's always been that. She even learned how to do resuscitation and carries a little, um, you know, Naloxone kit around with her in case someone in front of her, down the bottom of this studio, is overdosing. She can administer first aid till an ambulance gets there. I mean, that's a community person with a community spirit. That's, you know, she is what you see is what you get with her.

Josh: Yeah, I think the Leopard not changing their spots thing is an interesting one based on— I look back at things that I've said that just purely being naive and not understanding, I've said dumb shit.

Ruth: I've—

Josh: I'm constantly saying dumb shit, and it's about that, uh, that change. I guess within politics, is there not the opportunity for that, uh, for light and shade Not even thinking about it, not knowing the Luke Creasy stuff, but just in that whole idea of as humans we're all complex and how do we— the empathetic side of me sees, you know, all these things and being like, hang on, okay, have they shown change? Have they done this? Have they done that? What's your perspective?

Ruth: Look, I think that's a really good comment and we will never know because Luke's not running, but he could have just stared it down and said, yeah, I was a dickhead. Yeah, it was 12 years ago. I was an adolescent, you know, and, and now I realise that it's not appropriate to do that sort of stuff. And he could have stared it down, but we will never know whether the electorate was in a forgiving mood and would have said, yeah, we've all done dumb shit on social media. Yeah, you know, in cyberspace everyone can hear you scream forever and ever and ever.

Josh: Yeah, you know, it's—

Tommy: I worry about— I mean, it's probably— I wouldn't have thick enough skin to be in politics, I don't think. Someone like— I think about what happened to Luke and I go, someone's gone through purposefully trying to find—

Josh: is that the game of politics?

Tommy: Like, is that Is that what you sign up for?

Ruth: Look, I often get people saying I wouldn't have a thick enough skin, and I say, you're the—

Tommy: what do you reckon of this skin?

Ruth: Well, you're the very person that we need. We need thick skin, thin skin, it's all bullshit. We all got the same skin, you know, the epidermis is about a couple of millimeters. Fuck, he's right. Do you like how I chucked that word in? But we've all got the same skin, and we actually need people that have got sensitivity, compassion, that can do the mea culpa, I've stuffed up. None of us are perfect. And last week there was a survey that came out of Australians. Who's your favourite politician? The top 5 were women and the top one was Jacinda Ardern at 77% of Australians. And she's not even our bloody politician. She's New Zealander.

Josh: Yeah.

Ruth: But do you know why? Because of those images of the compassion after the Christchurch atrocities of hugging, you know. And then there's Penny Wong and Tanya Plibersek and other politicians, Julie Bishop, you know, that came through. And they're people that have got a sense of humour. They seem a bit vulnerable. Yeah. So I, I— when you say I haven't got the thick skin, actually that's what we need. We need people that are honest, that have got integrity, that can say, 'I stuffed up, but give me a hug,' you know, 'I'm sorry.' We don't want those arrogant pricks. Yeah, well, we might— they might get elected, but have a look at it. I mean, to say that you have to have a thick skin disenfranchises the rest of us. So it's a language that I try and call out because I just think that's bullshit.

Tommy: I'm feeling it, I'm feeling I've been called out. No, I get it. It's such a great perspective because I guess you just don't want these stoic, you know, people just steamrolling through, you know.

Ruth: I mean, look at Jacqui Lambie. I don't know if you know much about her. She was the senator for, um, Tassie.

Josh: Assume we know nothing though.

Ruth: Yeah, okay. So she had to step down because of Section 44, which is a bit in the Constitution where you can't have dual citizenship, and it was devastating to her. But she ran because she was pissed off about how veterans were treated. She's a veteran herself. And she had massive, um, pain from back injuries, and she just felt the Department of Veterans Affairs wasn't looking after him. So she ran, and she, she was really down in the dumps before she ran. She almost suicided, she said that. She was, you know, a drug addict. That's all on the public record. So she's not like one of us, but we know people like that, so we— if people can relate to— and she ran and she got elected, and she's given it another crack. And I go, good on ya! We need people like that that have got a heart they wear on their sleeve.

Josh: I mean, I think that's to, to that point of the, uh, the leopard and the spots and all that sort of thing. It's being able to realise that also some of the energy, some of those things that we want, comes from the hard bits of life, the friction.

Ruth: Yeah. And I think that's, that's the point there, is if you disclose, disclose, and you're transparent about where you've stuffed up in life everyone's a lot more forgiving. Yeah, you know, so, so, you know, maybe if, um, uh, Chrissy had disclosed that, yeah, I did some stupid things when I was younger, but I've changed and I've, you know, I've gone to unconscious bias gender affirming training or whatever it is, you know, to understand how inequality and gender are related, and I've changed now, then maybe if he'd come out and said that, people would have gone, yeah, we've all done that, we've all made stupid jokes about Women.

Tommy: Yeah, I got his— his world's been turned upside down, hasn't it?

Ruth: Yeah, yeah, I really feel for him.

Tommy: What kind of time does someone, you know, like, we're walking into that polling booth and seeing some names on a piece of paper, like, how much effort are these people putting in that we're seeing these names of? I'm not talking about, you know, the, the top end, the current Prime Minister, but these, you know, typical candidate, if that's what you— they're called.

Ruth: Yeah, well, the candidates, so you might see 6 or 7 running or 10 or 12 They've put in anything from probably 3 years to 3 months. Most of them about a year and a half, 2 years. It is tough and rigorous, and they really do have to plan far in advance. And then they've got to go out and door knock. Like, they've got early voting centres at the moment. They're open from 8 to 6, all day handing out, talking to people, vote for me, vote for me, vote for me.

Josh: And you were on the front line of this because you were the chief strategist for your sister. Cathy McGowan, who was elected in Indi. Was that the Indi? Yeah, the— we— I have no idea around the independent stuff, right? So when it comes to voting, this is my naive brain. I'm like, I think, okay, Labor, Liberal, Greens. That's sort of my, uh, that's what I'm working with. And then based on say if it was the Greens for instance, I take their card and then you do the preference thing, all that. That's purely based on me thinking that especially if I do some under the— below the line type of stuff, I'm potentially going to fuck it up and then it's a donkey vote. For one, is it extra hard for people to vote for independents? Is the system created that way? And can you school me on how I can be Yeah, changing my perspective or how we, how we vote.

Ruth: Cool. So I've got a good analogy for you, right? So where do you go shopping?

Josh: Woolies. Uh, I'm gonna say, I'm gonna say Coles.

Ruth: Yeah, yeah. Okay, so most Aussies go Woolies or Coles. If you try Aldi—

Tommy: yeah, this guy, this guy over here, yeah, Mr.

Josh: 97 is sort of more progressive. He's going to sort of the local fruit shop. He gets our eggs.

Tommy: Okay, some people call him a tight ass.

Ruth: Yeah, most people, we've got a duopoly of supermarkets in Australia, but there is Aldi's coming along right now. You might have your favorite, favourite sauerkraut or your favourite vegan cashew mayo cheese, right? And you used to be able to get it, or your fake bacon, your fake— and now they don't sell it. And you go, geez, this is really annoying. Oh, there's a, there's a boutique little veggie shop down there. Well, there's a really nice— I'm going to go and try IGA or Foodworks. Give it a crack because look, their money's coming back in the community and they're local. And you go there and bang, look at that. They've got 10 different types of sauerkraut and more vegan sausages than you can poke a snag at. Bit of bread, you know.

Tommy: I'm hungry.

Ruth: So you go, I'm going to start shopping now at the IGA and Foodworks because they give me more variety. They're more focused on what I want and I can get— I know that the profits are going right back in the community, not multinationals that use poker machines such as Woolies. To fund their share price, right?

Josh: Yeah.

Ruth: So there's ethics, their integrity, there's availability. Now, independents are a lot like that. They're local, they're independent, they get the community where they've grown up from. They're not beholden to a big party structure where they might be thinking something, but they've got to say something completely different because they've signed up to a party. So that's, that's independence. Now, is the system weighed against independents? Yeah, definitely. The major parties have got all the cash, they've got all the money, they've got the incumbent already in the seat.

Tommy: So what do they spend?

Ruth: Knock them off.

Josh: What do you think that the average, like the main— I think you spoke about, so as an independent you can spend $70,000 to run.

Ruth: Yeah.

Josh: What are, say, those millions?

Ruth: Millions. And I mean, Clive Palmer spending $80 million apparently.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: That is our money. Or he's raising that.

Ruth: I think he says it's his own.

Tommy: Oh yeah, Clive Palmer's a bit of an eccentric billionaire in Australia.

Ruth: Yeah, yeah, a bit like someone else in another country.

Tommy: Yeah, definitely.

Ruth: Um, but yeah, so, so the independents have to— and they have often have ethics around where they get their donations from because they don't want to be beholden to a big mine company if they get elected and then they're making a decision. So it's cupcakes, street stalls, movie nights, barefoot bowls. That's how independents raise their money. But that gets buy-in from the community as well. Yeah, absolutely. So, uh, you have a look around, you'll see the billboards now covered with the major parties, the ads on the TV. So the independents have to do a bit of guerrilla warfare in terms of getting their message across. So it's Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, something really innovative. There's a video that's just come out this week from 8 independents that have all chipped in together and they've made a video. Check it out on YouTube.

Josh: Interesting.

Tommy: I love hearing, um, well, it's— I just find it entertaining when the Labor Party does a radio ad about the Liberal Party and it's just like mocking them.

Josh: It seems to be a common thing. Like, I've noticed more ads, uh, like billboards for, um, ugly photos of politics. You know when it's from the other party because normally they're looking really sad. It's a really unflattering photo. It's black and white. They look— don't look great. And then next to it, it has, yeah, all the reasons.

Ruth: So that's what they do. And it's also attack ads and it's personality politics, you know. So If I want to encourage you to do anything, like, I'm not gonna— I'm never gonna win the battle to get you to run at the moment, but you never know, one day you might. Um, that when you walk into that polling center, collect the how-to-vote cards from everyone, think of something you're passionate or pissed off about. Yeah. And go and talk to those people and say, what's your policy on climate change? What's your policy on, um, uh, having education in schools on LGBTI issues? What's your policy on abortion and a woman's right to choose? Go and ask them and then go, oh, okay, well, that's interesting. Yeah, yeah. And go in and vote. Put your vote— is going to change the world. One vote won't, but hundreds will.

Tommy: Um, something naughty I did, Ruth, when I was in Shepparton, I, I was like just wrapped that I could do early voting, and I went to the early voting center. And then I was on the radio and I was saying, guys, you should get down to the early voting center. And then we got a call from local council saying we actually aren't trying to encourage people, it's only for people who can't do it.

Ruth: Yeah, you've got to have a— you've got to meet a whole lot of reasons under the Act of why you can't. Like if you've got a wedding on that day, you're in hospital, you're overseas, but you've got to have legit reasons.

Tommy: I was just saying, mate, there's no lines.

Ruth: Yeah, a lot of people have checked out though, like they're not engaged and they don't realise that politics affects everything from the moment you walk out your door onto the footpath to you drive along the road that's the local road rules or the speed line or how fast the trains go, if you can get a train to the airport or not, or you have to pay company Skybus. All this stuff is politics. It's everywhere. You're soaking in politics. So the minute you disengage, you're giving your power to someone else.

Josh: I mean, is there, I guess the other side of it is we probably don't need people like Tommy or myself in like— Why not?

Tommy: Speak for yourself.

Josh: Well, I guess in the sense of if we're trying to get more sort of diverse thinking. We're not the, the most sort of diverse guys in regards to what's already in the political—

Ruth: but don't cheque out, go find a queer woman of colour and get on her campaign.

Josh: Yeah. And so I guess that's part of it too. What you're referring to isn't necessarily Tommy going out and running, but it's actually being supporters and volunteers for different people.

Ruth: And you can— you've got your skills. It's not enough to say, oh, I've thin skin, or I can't find what I'm curious about or passionate about. Like, you've got skills. Find someone like a queer woman of colour and go, do you want us to come and make a short vid for you that you can chuck on YouTube? Well, instead of giving you a $10 grand donation, we'll do a 5-minute video for you, and that'll be our contribution for making the world a better place because we've got diverse representatives. So don't cheque out.

Josh: Yeah. Who were the big supporters for Cathy when you were chief strategist? Where did you see the most amount of support come from?

Ruth: From the local community. So we had, um, in 2013 when Cathy first ran, the incumbent, which was the person that held the seat, had held it for 12 years with a really big margin. They thought it was a very safe seat, so they ignored Indais in northeast Victoria. They ignored it, and the community felt that, you know, they were just being ignored. And what particularly pissed them off was when the apology for the Stolen Generations was made in Parliament that member of parliament exited the building. So everyone was a bit pissed off and annoyed. So when Cathy put her hat in the ring to run, lots of young people encouraged her to run. They said, "We want to see a different future." And she said, "Okay, well, if I'm going to run, come on board." So the young people came on board and they did stuff like flash mobs, set up the Twitter and social media and Tumblr pages and all of that. They were fantastic. And there was 400 people from the community. Next time there was 600. Currently there's an independent running called Helen Haynes who's taken over from Cathy. She's got 1,700 volunteers from the local community. So these are people that are putting their feet and skin in the game. That's— they're the biggest supporters, which is real people like you and I, mums and dads, kids, grandparents. They're all involved in that campaign because they're passionate about seeing a change and keeping that seat independent.

Josh: I feel a bit— as a voter, I feel a little bit detached from the actual change that happens. Being so close to Cathy, did you see things that she was sort of striving for and seeing it actually getting enacted and happening?

Ruth: Yeah, absolutely. One of the biggest things was that the seat became marginal, and that means that instead of being a safe seat held by a big margin, it was like— she only won by 400 votes out of about 90,000.

Josh: Wow.

Ruth: People. So it was really close.

Josh: Did they have to recount at that point?

Ruth: Yeah, they did. They had to recount. It took 2 weeks to actually fix, to decide. So it wasn't—

Josh: what was that? What was that?

Ruth: Couple of weeks left at all. So, and then next time she won by about 5,000 votes in 2016. But what's happened over that time, that seat's become marginal. And people often talk, well, what did you get? So they think it's all about money, but money did flow in, like $250 million plus worth of grants. Um, but some of the issues that got fixed up were like mobile phone black spots. And if you've lived in the country, you'll know, be driving down a road and suddenly your mobile drops out, which can be catastrophic in valleys, the mountain valleys, when there are fires coming, that people can't access their mobiles. So she got funding for, I think, 54 mobile towers, which then allowed, um, to these black spots to be addressed. Whereas the neighbouring electorate, which again is a safe Coalition seat, it's only had about 12 black spots fixed. So that sort of thing.

Josh: They're all coming into your area to use your fast mobile.

Ruth: Yeah, so these are things I'm talking about. But the other sort of intrinsic thing that happened was people took, started to take an interest in politics. They got engaged. They said, actually, we can make a difference. If enough of us get excited about making a difference, we can actually come together and make a difference. I don't know if this ever happened at school, like the student representative council.

Josh: I was big in the SRC, yeah. SRC president from year 8. I was the youngest SRC president that they ever had.

Ruth: Of course you were.

Tommy: I've heard more about just being the president than anything you actually initiated.

Josh: No, I did.

Tommy: Was it all for clout?

Josh: No, I enacted, I created a healthier menu at the canteen.

Ruth: Well, see, this is it. So on that scale, you got involved in politics. It's in your blood. I've seen SRCs where the girls have got involved in changing the uniform. Like, why can't we wear daks like the guys? We should be allowed to wear pants. And finally, 2019, they've got the school uniform changed.

Josh: You know, big one on hoodies at our school. Really? There was a ban on it. We wanted year 12 hoodies. They had a real issue with the idea of hoods. I think maybe because I grew up in a sort of a rougher area. The Bronx. Exactly. Yeah. And so, yeah, they were giving a lot of pushback on that. But it is interesting, like, because a lot of people will say, I don't want to talk politics, like, uh, or if, um, say a show like this, there'll be people who are switching off who are triggered in some way and being like, whatever's, you know, you've said something that's, that's, that's, uh, hit a nerve, and they're like, they, they turn off. What's your perspective on listening to both sides, listening and being able to sort of be a, um, taking a bit from here, taking a bit, a bit from there.

Ruth: Um, everyone's got a right to disengage. I totally get that. Sit on the couch and watch Netflix. But you walk out in the street, you're going to be stepping over needles.

Josh: Yeah, right.

Ruth: You're going to be paying your hex tax.

Josh: Um, well, we won't be. Well, Mr.

Ruth: 97, he only lasted 2 months, but he's still Yeah, okay, you're going to have friends on Newstart that cannot find rent. No capital city has got rentable accommodation if you're on Newstart. So what do those people do? They're homeless or they're couch surfing. So you might turn off, but if you actually open your eyes and put your antennas up, there are so many issues around that need fixing. And I just said, be awake, get woke, you know.

Tommy: It's reframing politics because it's That's something I'm learning from this conversation. I think there'd be some people who think that the political landscape is, you know, going too far one way and it's come from the other way and we might overcorrect. You know, we're going to overcorrect, it's getting extreme, you know. Um, do you think that's a reality?

Ruth: No, I don't think—

Josh: you don't think—

Ruth: no, because we have got 3 levels of government: local, state, and federal, and it's all over the place of who's representing. We've got 18-year-olds in councils. Yeah, you know, young people, as soon as they can, they go, vote for me. You know, we've got really exciting young people coming through. All these kids that are on the climate change strike, I reckon they're going to get involved in politics at some level. So, and then you've got the diverse rules right over on the right that go, stop immigration, you know, we don't want any, um, Muslims coming in. And, and they're far right. And we want, um, you know, some of the, um involvement of religion in schools. They want all that sort of stuff. And it's like, okay, well, that represents the diversity of views in Australia. I'm not saying we should ban that. In fact, I think it's healthy to have those sort of discussions, if— as long as it's not, um, you know, threatening people or, you know, really putting people down. But I think it's important to have the discussions. Well, what should be a sustainable immigration? Um, what sort of things should we um, um, do for Newstart? Should we raise it? What about dentistry? Why isn't that on Medicare?

Tommy: Oh, that's bullshit. That's something I'm pissed off about.

Ruth: Yeah, well, you know, that's a federal issue, is it? So why, why if you break your arm you can go to the doctor and get, you know, get it free, uh, great public health service in Australia, but if you smash your tooth, um, you're up for a couple of grand? You know why?

Tommy: Like, yeah, I don't understand.

Ruth: There's so many people out there with rotten teeth, which is a health issue, but there's not the connection. So these are the sort of stuff, just wake up, because, because who does it? They— the minute you hear someone saying they should fix it, that's politics.

Josh: And I guess the other thing with politics is it's— you hear things happening. Like, I remember hearing when, um, maybe it was at the state level, they were talking about dentistry and there was a, an extra level of money going to it. And I remember hearing people saying, yeah, they're saying that, but it's actually 'X, Y, and Z,' and 'Don't take it at face value, this is marketing.' How, how can we be engaged when we're constantly being told that our pollies are lying to us and that things aren't what they seem?

Ruth: I'd say read, read the issues and get it from different points of view. Like, there's a hashtag called #AusPoll on Twitter, which is great.

Josh: Has it got a sausage?

Ruth: Well, that's AusVotes, because that's the democracy sausage. Okay, that's why that's got that emoji there at the moment. But come May the 18th, that'll move on. But Auspol is really good. And talk to people, talk to people, talk to your mates that are on Newstart and go, how the hell are you living? Yeah, you know, like ask people questions. I think that's how you get engaged. Or what do you think about climate change? Like today there's a report coming out on mass extinction is looming.

Josh: Yeah.

Ruth: And we're going to lose so many species. Like we can't just sleep on that.

Josh: Yeah, because there, there is a sense Where I— what I feel with this stuff is that we're a bit fucked. The world's going to end sometime, and it seems so big that I can't see the micro. It's like, yeah, we could, uh, not have disposable cups, but something else is going to fuck up before then anyway. Is that point of view a toxic one for actually progress?

Ruth: If enough people make a change, things will change. So if you, if you get keep cups instead of these, right, because these aren't recyclable, just get some keep cups, chuck your brand on it and give them out to people. That's a change you can make.

Josh: Yeah.

Ruth: You know, you're done. You can have a unisex sign on because that's just a subtle thing that we welcome all genders here. Yeah. You know, you can do tiny little changes that will make a difference in your world. You can catch public transport to here. Everything you do will make a difference. People, people look up to you. They listen to this podcast, so you can model behavior. You can start asking people, what pronoun do you want to be used? You know, and just model LGBTQ inclusiveness.

Josh: I think part of it is that I always— I don't want to come across as disingenuous or being, um, tokenistic. So when, like, I feel like whenever there's a new, you know, like, I think The world's shifting and there's a comfort in, okay, this is the way that I do things. And so trying to adapt, trying to— because I think that there's a lot of people who wanted to make that change, but they see it's like, okay, the friction point of not having anything on the door versus having the unisex symbol or whatever it is, those, those things then become these micro statements that we're making that, that can be political, whereas virtual— Yeah, exactly. I think that's been Tommy, uh, like Tommy and I have spoken that about that a lot, which is like, we never— we want to make change, but we don't want— but we've also got that sort of no BS filter, so we don't want to do it in the sense of like, okay, I'm supporting this thing. I don't want to then have people thinking that I'm doing this as some sort of brand building, like personal virtue signal.

Ruth: Well, why wouldn't you have a Keep Cup?

Josh: Yeah, I think the Keep Cup, well, the thing with the Keep Cup one, it was like— Called out again. This is, no, this was my rationale with the Keep Cup. I think Scooter Derek, who's on the—

Tommy: I'm compostable.

Josh: Okay, that's good. So we can compost these ones, which is definitely why we got them. Yeah. And Mr. 97's already working on— a compost for us. Um, did you know, like, you can cut worms— or you would, you're a scientist— you can cut worms in half and they grow or something? Is that true?

Ruth: Some worms. But I just think this is excuses.

Josh: This is excuses.

Ruth: This is just excuses, right? And it's, it's to just—

Josh: well, the KeepCup example, I'll give you that as an example. I then heard that it's like, oh, um, a KeepCup is worth 400 disposable cups in regards to the materials that are used or whatever. And then I think about how much, how many times, like I had a KeepCup and then I lost it. And so I'm like, I did the math. Yeah. So if it's like, if you got 10 KeepCups and one KeepCup is worth 400 disposable cups, you've purchased 4,000 cups.

Ruth: Okay, so my point is, and it's back to this, you do the research before you make your decisions, right? You could take a mug down to the shop every day and they'd get to know, oh yeah, this is the long black.

Josh: It's the mug guy.

Ruth: Stick a unicorn on the dunny. Just a picture of a unicorn. It doesn't matter. Yeah. Because you don't want to go, oh, I forgot the Q, I forgot the I, I forgot the plus. But, you know, just stick a unicorn on it and that could be your way of being, I'm accepting, you know. But I just say, do, do your research. Don't be asleep.

Josh: Yeah.

Ruth: Because when you're asleep, others will be doing the work and taking over the country in ways that you might agree with. And it'd be it'll be too late when you wake up.

Josh: Yeah, yeah. Tommy, what do you think? I think that like the conversations Tommy and I have very much, uh, come from a place where it's like, okay, we want to be, um, authentic with things. And authenticity is—

Tommy: I like what you're saying. And I think what you said about find your thing— we're just looking at the camera, mate.

Josh: It's all good.

Tommy: Yeah, we're just finding the thing that actually pisses you off. And I— and maybe it's the there's people who are not that pissed off but, uh, voicing their annoyance about something that they're not that annoyed about. Something that annoys me is, um, uh, people who litter. Is there a party for that? I mean, is there someone who's started—

Ruth: start it, mate. Yeah, well, it's— or there's an EPA 1800 number you called. But you know what, maybe it hasn't happened to you yet.

Josh: What about peace? I think the thing is that for a lot of people who don't have that many— like we're in a very privileged position where like we are very fortunate. There's not many things that happen. So then for some people, the pissed off bit is I got called out or political correctness has gone crazy. And so their version of being pissed off is actually maybe to go more to the conservative sort of side. And so I guess that that's to your point around the mate, you know, ask your mates, I think that part of that, like, it's in the— in that statement, which is if you're only just asking your mates, you're only getting one perspective. I think that the real thing is like, how come? And I've even noticed that just being on this, being in Abbotsford, being in sort of a, you know, mecca of, you know, different people struggling, you know, struggling people, and being near commission flats and all that sort of thing, you see a diverse range of people. And for me, it's like, um The asking the mate thing is that bubble echo chamber thing. And it's like, how do we go beyond that? How do we ask?

Ruth: Yeah.

Josh: And I think part of it is just experiencing it. We were upstairs over the weekend seeing two women, you know, taking a shooting up in just in the corner. And it's like, it is a shocking thing to see, which then all of a sudden Tommy and I having conversations around are these needles and stuff? Like, maybe there's a bunch of needles out the back of our office. It's like, can we be pushing like the local council to get rid of them?

Ruth: Yeah, or putting signs up saying the safe injecting facility's okay down that road, you know. It, um, I was going to say you can be in a bubble which is all middle-class white dudes. I also run gender equality training, and one of the things I encourage people is to put a gender lens on, which is like putting a pair of sunnies on. You can't see what you can't see until you make a deliberate effort.

Josh: Yeah.

Ruth: So the first thing you do is, well, look at the numbers, look at the data. So I'd encourage you to look back on your podcast and go, how many diverse people have you had on? What's the gender ratio? And if it's not 50/50, do what you need to do to get 50/50 women speaking here as well. Invite people of color, invite people of diverse backgrounds. Get some people, some Sikhs, some Muslim women, some queer people. Make sure you've got a whole diversity of people You've got a job to get their voices out as well. That's what you do. You're in front of a mic. Yeah, that's your privilege. Get the voices out of diversity. Ask these questions to them. Yeah, what's going on for you?

Josh: Yeah, I guess part of it too, like using that lens, one of the things that maybe I'm overthinking it, but I think about we want to have Ruth McGowan on because you're an interesting person with a great perspective, and I'm always conscious of We're having you on whether you're white, black, female, male, all that sort of thing. Like, you're an interesting person. And so the pushback that I have for myself around these things is I don't want it to ever feel tokenistic.

Ruth: You know what, that it's not going to be because— so the ABC has just done a database. It realised that whenever it asked for comments on the news, only 22% of the people they interviewed were women. And they've gone, this is not good enough. 50% of the population is women. They've got interesting views. So then they're building up their whole database of skills of who can talk about X, Y, Z. And they've gone, it's our responsibility to find the interesting women to get their viewpoints on finance and markets and politics. So that's just lazy, this, oh, I don't want, I have no women, it feels tokenistic.

Josh: Well, I don't think it's, it's not out of a laziness, but I think that it's not something that I necessarily want us to lead with. So when we have people on the, on the show, it's realising that you've got an Order of Australia, you've got all of these things, and there's plenty of women out there and non-gender binary people that you could find that will also have interesting points of view.

Ruth: I mean, I just put that challenge out to you to do the analysis of who you've had and look at where the gaps are. Yeah, and it won't be tokenistic. You might be blown away by what some of these people saying. Yeah, yeah.

Josh: Well, I think we do, like, we've— we did a work on the board, uh, earlier in the year where we wrote down probably 150 names, and then we got a red texta and just circled all the women and say, okay, well, here, let's focus on getting, getting this. Um, and so it's definitely a piece of work that we think is important. I also think that it's— we had some feedback on Instagram where someone had said it And the other thing is that I think a lot of people, especially in podcasting, it's the early days of the format. People don't see it as their responsibility or see that it's even, that you're at the point where you can make that positive change. So I think that now that we've identified it, having that diversity in audience is interesting.

Ruth: I reckon it's gonna be good. Oh, there's a website called Here She Is, which lists hundreds of women and what they can speak about.

Tommy: Great.

Ruth: And, you know, so you could just go to that and go, I want someone to talk about, I don't know, marketing and PR or whatever, you know.

Josh: That's really cool.

Tommy: And who set up that?

Ruth: The Victorian Women's Trust.

Josh: Yeah.

Ruth: Which I'm a board member of that organization, and they do amazing stuff for women and girls and advocacy. They're a feminist organization. They've just released a book called About Bloody Time, which is taking the taboo off menstruation. So they do stuff like that, you know. Can you imagine Having a podcast talking about that and getting a couple of young girls on that are feisty and going, we want to have sanitary products in our toilets at school, that's what we're fighting for. Forget hoodies, that's a fundamental right.

Josh: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Tommy: Is there anything that worries you about the future across the political landscape? Thinking, I think about my son and what he's going to be growing up, and you know, times are different from when I was a young man. To what he will be a part of and what's acceptable and what's even thought about.

Ruth: Well, my concern is people tuning out, you know, and that's, that's why I write Get Elected, because anyone can get elected that is competent and has the skills to, to have a, have a vision and articulate that vision and bring people along with them. Yeah.

Josh: Mr. 97, uh, you know, you're a, a young person, he's, uh, 19. So, you know, Tommy and I, uh, I'm getting close to 30. Tommy is 30. Exactly. Uh, what resonates with you here? Have you got a question for Ruth? Yeah, I guess. I mean, I'm a Kiwi citizen, so I don't have to vote, but I still, I still think people of my generation feel helpless in, uh, feeling like their vote isn't worth it. Like, I want, I want to, I want to support, uh, people that are you know, fighting climate change, but it's just like my vote feels like nothing. So how do I, you know, change— so change that perspective?

Ruth: Yeah, good question. So I work as a coach, and often, so when people feel overwhelmed, the first thing you do is take action, no matter how small. Take an action, a tiny little step. And the first thing I would encourage 18, 19-year-old is going, well, you know, what 'Who would I vote for in this election in 2 weeks' time?' And get educated. So there is a website called ABC Vote Compass, which has about 10 questions, and it asks you questions and you give the answer, and then it tells you which political party lines up with your views. So you're not going to be swayed by the big beautiful billboards that, you know, diss someone else. You're just going to go, 'Okay, well, this is what I believe in climate change.' This is what I believe in marriage equality, whatever it is. And look, I'm right near this party. So it graphs it all. It's a 5-second sort of quiz, you know, 5-minute quiz. And it can tell you. So first thing is use your vote. If you're an Australian citizen, use your vote to make a difference. And then, you know, talk about politics. When people say something that they're annoyed about, like climate change, go, well, what are you doing about it? You can join GetUp. Organizations like that. Um, give them a $5 donation. They're the ones fighting for it. So you can actually, you know, um, handball a bit of your responsibilities. But, you know, get active, get involved, or the planet's going to be stuffed if everyone just goes to sleep at the wheel.

Josh: Yeah. What's your, um, relationship with comedy? Because there's, you know, comedians always talking about— well, there seems to be a big, uh, talking point at the moment. We can't make fun of anything anymore. You're someone who is pretty like, you know, you've got both sides. You're hilarious, you have strong political— you've got strong political, uh, views. You sort of seem to merge it all. At what, at what point, uh, is, you know, the, the comedy thing versus political correctness? How can we, how can we navigate? Because even Tommy and I have felt, especially recording a show, you say shit, you use stereotypes as a way of doing comedy, and then you look back, it's like, oh, that joke was probably from 2004. You know, how do you think people can navigate that type of thing?

Ruth: Well, there's so many fantastic comedians, local comedians in Australia, take the piss out of politics, and they're brilliant, and I follow them on TV. I follow their podcasts.

Josh: Yeah, you know, do you have any favorite? What's your— who's your favourite at the moment?

Ruth: Um, Sammy J. Do you ever watch him?

Josh: No, no.

Ruth: Oh, you guys are missing out. Oh, you gotta watch Sammy J. So he does this skit about the government coach where he's the coach and he's got it down pat, you know, and he's in his coach uniform and his football team is the government. So he's calling them where they've dropped the balls. And yeah, look him up on YouTube. He's a pisser. Yeah, he's really, really great.

Josh: And so do you think that there is Um, have you noticed things like comedy or things change based on politics in, in society?

Ruth: Um, I think it's got funnier. There's a lot more things to— it's, it's so serious, it's got funnier. You know, there's almost an opposing effect that it's like, oh, like you can't make jokes about some of, some of the stuff that's, um, you know, Islamophobia. But they, they do in a way that's, that's still respectful.

Josh: Yeah.

Ruth: So Pauline Hanson wore a burqa into Parliament just to make a point.

Josh: Yeah.

Ruth: And then there was this whole running joke about that.

Josh: Yeah.

Ruth: Um, uh, so it's— I, I do love my dose of political comedy. I love my political podcasts as well. I've got several lined up that I'm a bit of a junkie about, these political podcasts.

Tommy: So there's a place for the joker?

Ruth: Oh, absolutely.

Tommy: In the society?

Ruth: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean Look, it's not life and death, it's politics, which is a bit of both. So yeah, you do need the politics for the light relief. And yeah, I'd encourage you to have a look at Sammy J and you can see what I'm talking about.

Tommy: And then you've got the extreme end of that, which is the comedians that are summing an audience of 800 people where they are still doing racist jokes, homophobic jokes, all of this. And it's almost like I see— what fascinates me about that is that there's an audience. There's still an audience, and there's these people that are like, you know, laughing to something that they know is so wrong, which then fuels the humour of it, I think, because then it's like taboo. We're laughing, we're getting together as a community to sort of be naughty and laugh.

Ruth: Yeah, yeah.

Tommy: Which I think it— which I— that's my sort of view on that, sort of going one way. So it goes, you know, everyone is very sensitive now rightfully so. There's been some— a lot of things that needed to be readjusted, but then out of that has now created this new niche where people are front-footing that, which I don't think it's right. Yeah, um, but it's a bit like eating the Macca's hash browns, isn't it? Yeah, I don't think it's right, but I kind of am enjoying it, is what those people in the crowd are saying.

Ruth: Yeah, yeah.

Josh: And so you've— you wrote Get Elected Uh, what was the, what was the experience of doing that like? Because you hear how hellish it can be for people writing a book. Was it super stressful or was it nice and easy?

Ruth: Look, it was a discipline. No, it wasn't easy. I liken it to, um, giving birth. Like when you're first-time parent, you're thinking, when's the right time to have a kid? You know, maybe you went through all this, you know, like, should I do it when I'm 30 or should I muck up my career or should I wait till I'm in my late 30s when I've got a career established and You know, so it's all this, when will I do the book, right? And then once you've made the decision to do the book, then the pregnancy is the gestation, is like the slow writing. So you do a little bit every day. It took me about 14 months, but I had a 3-month break. But I just had the discipline of doing it. And then when you give birth to it, it's quite torturous because you forget about publicity, marketing, everything you need to do there. And then you go, shit, I've done a book, I'm gonna have another one, I'm gonna have another kid. Yeah, pretty easy, hey? Once you make it to this, you wanna— where's, where's the little sibling for your little fella?

Tommy: You forget. I think that's where we're at. We've, we've forgotten the pain of it all. Yeah. And that unknown. And now we're like, maybe we could do another one.

Ruth: Yeah, you go, I'm gonna have another one.

Josh: Yeah.

Ruth: But I think I'd encourage anyone that's got something really worthwhile to say to do a book. Podcasts are great.

Josh: Yeah.

Ruth: Books, books, you know, like people, there's a lot of respect when you— yeah, bump that on the table.

Josh: Absolutely. And from, you know, all the times that, uh, you know, the leadership positions that, uh, you've had over the years, what are the, what are the core skills that you think are universal for leaders?

Ruth: Hmm, well, there's a whole nother podcast in that one, isn't it? Well, obviously you've got to have followers. Yeah, you know. So I think having a vision that you can articulate of how you can bring about change— and for me it's about positive change— um, so having a vision that you can articulate and demonstrate that you're competent to pursue that vision with people that can support you. So to bring people along to get that vision happening, do you need to think that you have something important to say?

Tommy: Do you need to believe that as someone who—

Josh: you have to be a bit of a narcissist.

Tommy: Yeah. Oh yeah, I've got a good idea. Oh, I believe this is, you know, important. Do you have to sort of have—

Ruth: I think you have to have that to start with because, yeah, because why would people, you know, be attached to what you've got to say? The first person as a politician you've got to vote for is yourself. You've got to sell it to yourself first. Vote one, that's a great idea, you know. Make Dental care tax deductible. Make it bulk billing for dental care. I've got to believe that because I've had smashed up teeth and I literally have, you know, I've got a plate in at the moment because I've got a smashed tooth. I lost it whitewater kayaking. So now this cost me grands and grands of money to get a new front tooth. And it's like, I can go to the doctor and get a bulk bill if I need a flu injection, but I can't get, you know, lucky I can afford it. But what if I couldn't? I'd be walking around without a tooth like your mates back in the Bronx, you know? And immediately people go, People are making assumptions about you because you don't have a tooth.

Josh: Yeah.

Ruth: Um, but yeah, that's— so I'm passionate about that, um, dental care should be, uh, bulk bill for people that can't afford it. Therefore, I've sold that to myself. Now I can go out and agitate on that if I was a politician and push for that change, which one of the major parties is at the moment.

Josh: What are you going to be doing on election day? Oh, Snags.

Ruth: So I, I saved my vote till election day. I could run in and do it early and get it over and done with because this is the— but you need to have that wedding But yeah, but I actually want to make the suckers work for my vote right up to the 18th of May. I really want to make it— I want to, I want to think about, well, who am I going to vote for?

Josh: This sounds like— this is what I love about this, is it reminds me— not to bring it back to SRC, but the way that, but the way that you treat it feels like how I felt about it in school, right? It feels like, like a campaign, and there's just like, uh, absolutely. And because the thing is, like, when, when I go through the polling booths to, to vote on election day. I've basically made up my mind based on some very sort of arbitrary things on my general viewpoint, but I'm not too in the nitty-gritty because I feel like things change. So I'm like, okay, this is how I feel, this is where I lean, I'm going to vote on there. But there are a bunch of people on that day handing pieces of paper. Um, is that like, is Is that an effective way? Like those, that final moment?

Ruth: Yeah, actually quite a lot of people make up their mind before they walk in on how nice the people were that handed out the ballot vote card to them.

Tommy: It's like a gauntlet.

Ruth: It is. You've got to run it. So just be polite because they're all volunteers. Well, some parties actually pay people to do that.

Josh: Really?

Ruth: Yeah. Yeah.

Tommy: Do you know what I said to one of them once? It was probably a local, before your local election. No, I was really annoyed. I've got a no junk mail sign in my letterbox.

Ruth: Yeah.

Tommy: And I saw the guy. Who had probably not personally put the, put the, um, flyer into mine.

Ruth: Well, they're allowed to do that under the Electoral Act. What? It's not seen as junk mail.

Josh: That's—

Ruth: anyway, come Election Day, this is what I get so excited about. So I live in a small rural community, it's only got about 400 people there. We— I know everyone there. There is the sausage sizzle going on for the local school. So I walk in—

Josh: have you got veg? Have they got a separate bit for the vegos?

Ruth: Really? No, they don't. Unfortunately. So often I just get white bread and onions and sauce. Like, I know, I know. But anyway, so I do the gauntlet and I have a chat to Bill and I have a chat to John and I have a chat to Fred and young Julie, you know, just social. And I take them all because I'm never going to let anyone know how I vote. I go in, I say hello to Jan, who's kicking me off the roll, and she goes, have you voted early today? And I go, nah, don't vote early, vote often. I just vote once, you know, have a little joke. And then I go into the booth.

Josh: You've already got your gear lined up for when you do it.

Ruth: I've got it all lined up. And then I go into the booth and I go, wow, look at this democracy. Like, people die for this, right? That's the end of it. People die for this all over the world. People die for this privilege that I've got. And I take my time. So it's 6 for the Senate.

Josh: Yeah.

Ruth: 6 above the line. I'm going to do every one. Or 12 below. Or if there's 200, I think of the person I hate the most and I mark them as 200 and I work my way backwards.

Tommy: Wow.

Ruth: You know, so it's real— it's really good fun. I know, yeah, probably not, but— and then I, then I get home and by 6 o'clock it's all over. I put the news on and I watch the ABC. So there's a cephalologist there. So cephalologist is a person who's a political numbers nerd called Antony Green. So he's, he's my hero, right? So he's on there, and then they've got the panel of past pollies from all sides, and I just watch it, my crack bottle of red. And I'm on Twitter as well. And I'll tell you what, that's— I get my jollies off on those nights. It's so exciting. I love politics.

Tommy: Big day.

Ruth: Oh, it is a big day.

Josh: It is a big day. That's so awesome. Uh, Ruth, appreciate you coming in and sharing your perspective because I think that this is like a good example of, um, getting those different sides. And we don't talk politics that much, and, um, you know, it's a unique perspective.

Tommy: So we do, and we just don't know. We are talking about it. Yeah, you're not framing it as politics.

Ruth: Whenever someone says they should do this, they— it's politics. Okay. Yeah.

Josh: Ruth, thanks for coming on the show.

Ruth: Thanks, mate. It's fantastic.

Josh: That was a very political handshake. I liked it.

Tommy: Yeah, it's all handed.

Josh: It's almost Order of Australia style. Is that what they— it's a daily talk show. Hi@thedailytalkshow.com if you want to send us an email. Otherwise, we'll see you tomorrow.

Tommy: See you guys.

Ruth: Bye. Thanks.