Performer, Poet, Riddler Josh Piterman

Josh: The Daily Talk Show.

Tommy: It's The Daily Talk Show, episode 332, and Josh Peterman right in the middle.

Josh: What's up, bro?

Josh: I always felt like I was a strong 332.

Tommy: Yeah, it's a good number.

Josh: You were last on at 188, and we're in Washington Square Park in New York City, so it's almost double again, but not quite.

Josh: In fact, it's, it's not double.

Josh: It feels like a long time ago that we, we last had you on.

Josh: Yeah, that was like 6 months.

Josh: Yes, just after grand final last year.

Tommy: So you were—

Josh: we caught you at a time where you were kind of just frolicking around the world.

Josh: Yeah, I was literally just living my best life doing absolutely nothing everywhere.

Josh: You were in a good vibe.

Josh: I'm not saying you're in a bad vibe now, but I'm a negative energy now.

Josh: No, you're definitely not. But we're— it's funny, like, we're at home now, we're in Melbourne, and we're, you know, we're amongst life where when we were— when you're away, it's like a holiday vibe.

Tommy: It's a different—

Josh: it's It's a different energy.

Josh: Yeah, you're definitely lighter on your feet. There's this sort of an air about you that like it's a give no fucks.

Josh: What annoyed me about your trip was after you left us, you went to Italy, you went to Venice.

Josh: Yeah, and then Toscana.

Josh: Oh, just the pizza.

Josh: And then Cinque Terre.

Josh: Oh, the food you were eating.

Josh: Oh, it was so good.

Josh: I mean, you earned it. You worked hard up until that point. What was the best thing that came from that trip?

Josh: Um, oh, the carbicide that I committed. It's, it's the food and the wine. Uh, I stayed on this farm in Tuscany, a little place, um, called, uh, Diaceroni Agriturismo. It sounds like it. Imagine me, it sounds like a Julio Iglesias song. And I had 5 days there, and that was just like Tuscan rolling hills and I mean, I arrived and on my doorstep there's like breads and cheeses and wine. They're like, you know, welcome. I'm like, sure, sure, doll. That's, that's going to be my life for the next 5 days.

Josh: Were you by yourself doing that trip?

Tommy: What's—

Josh: what do you like about travelling by yourself and what don't you like?

Josh: Uh, I like that I get to choose my schedule and that I don't have to answer to anyone.

Josh: Well, don't have kids, mate, because then that's fucking out the window.

Josh: Yep. I like that I get a lot of sort of introspective time, which I really like. And yeah, that's probably what I don't like is I don't get to canoodle.

Tommy: The old canoodling.

Josh: Yeah, yeah.

Tommy: Do you canoodle with your phone much? Like, are you a guy who you— as in, what is that? Or do you use your phone? I was basically just like, like, spooning up. Well, I tend to— when you travel, do you think you use your devices like your phones and stuff more or less?

Josh: Uh, I'm, I'm— I use it a lot when I use it, and then I have times a day like on that farm, it was like between 9 AM and 9 PM, the phone like in the villa and me not in there.

Tommy: Oh, that's great.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: And so what do you actually do on a farm for the whole day? Do you just like just eat cheese and walk around?

Josh: Yeah, did plenty of horse riding.

Tommy: Oh, that's cool.

Josh: Nature walks. Uh, they had a pool.

Tommy: Yeah.

Josh: Um, they had a winery, so, um, I was intoxicated a lot. I was very dry. There was a lot of salt.

Tommy: Just dehydrated.

Josh: Yeah, don't you? I get reflux when I, when I've been to Italy, like salamis and cheeses.

Tommy: Actually slowly being cured. I think that's the process of what's happening.

Josh: So probably you probably came out just at the right time just for for you. Probably. I did, I did have a lot of Nexium there.

Josh: What's that?

Josh: It's like a hardcore anti-reflux.

Josh: Oh, okay. Like I said, the chewable ones, they're nothing compared.

Josh: That's like a, that's like a Rennie or a lolly, guys. Yeah, that's like the Warhead of, um, of anti-reflux. This was like, yeah, this is hardcore stuff.

Tommy: Anytime you have to take medicine to sort of balance out your diet, there's probably something that's off in that moment.

Josh: Yeah, but it's Italy, it's not all the time. Yeah, yeah. Um, It's still where I believe my soul lives.

Tommy: Yeah.

Josh: Literally. Yeah.

Josh: Well, you're a fat opera singer trapped in a ripped dude's body. 'Cause if you haven't heard him sing, he can sing like no tomorrow.

Tommy: Yeah.

Josh: And it's not standard singing, it's operatic. Is that the style you're in?

Josh: Yeah.

Josh: So we're back down on the ground now. That seems like a lifetime ago.

Josh: It does, but then I'm off again.

Tommy: Tomorrow. To Italy?

Josh: Thursday morning.

Tommy: No, yeah, yeah, yeah. Where are you going?

Josh: Uh, to London, but probably just like a little, little trip. Cheeky trip, actually.

Tommy: So you speak Italian?

Josh: No, not fluently, but you sing Italian?

Tommy: You sing Italian, you fucking speak it. Yeah, I only had to say a few words and I was like, I think I'm fucking fluent. But, um, they— I was at a, um, gelato place the the other day, and there was a lady who was, uh, determined to just speak Italian to the Italian, like, gelato people.

Josh: Oh no, did she have her phone out doing that?

Tommy: No, she didn't have that, but it was just like she was just saying, yeah, a few words, like, um, every time she— like, is it sì? Sì, yes. And so she would say sì a lot and then was saying a few things, but it was giving me anxiety. But Bri was like, you should be celebrating, that's awesome that she's doing it. But I feel like when I came back from Thailand, I learned like sawadee krap and khap khun krap, all these words, but I never had the guts to actually say it at a restaurant just in case. It's like, yo bro, you might be at a Thai restaurant, but yeah, yeah, settle down. Have you ever been at a restaurant and pulled out some Italian? When is it— when does it feel appropriate to, to do it?

Josh: All the time.

Tommy: Really?

Josh: Oh yeah, yeah, I always, yeah, try and order or just say mille grazie at the end. Or as in Melbourne, when you're in Melbourne, at Pellegrini's, I'll do it all the time.

Tommy: Oh great.

Josh: What I have thought is that it wouldn't sound as weird to them, I don't think, if you're just finishing, you know, ciao, or, you know, it's literally— they're interpreting it as the word that we know it as.

Tommy: But they would be seeing me sweating and being like, you know, there's something—

Josh: they'd be concerned for your fucking well-being more so than whether you're doing it.

Josh: Not to be racist, but I look more Italian than you.

Tommy: Yeah, you do. You do have—

Josh: in fact, I had a, um—

Tommy: what do I look like, by the way?

Josh: You look Aryan. Aryan.

Josh: Well, you— what is that? You're Dutch.

Tommy: Yeah, my pa was Dutch.

Josh: Yep, very Dutch.

Josh: Tall Dutchman.

Josh: Or Scandinavian.

Tommy: I'll take Scandi.

Josh: Yeah, that's good.

Tommy: Which is good because they do good furniture.

Josh: Yeah, and they also do hot. Yeah, really well.

Josh: Yeah, this is the closest you've ever been, um, to being called a Viking, Josh. Yeah, take it.

Tommy: Do you know, um, Game of Thrones? Do you watch Game of Thrones?

Josh: I do, but I watch it through my parents' Foxtel account. And they only have Foxtel for Fox footy, really. But now Kayo has come out.

Josh: Yes.

Tommy: So does Kayo like replace— oh, fuck the mic—

Josh: any need for Foxtel, or it replaces any needs for the sports component of Foxtel? And I mean, they were paying $100 and something a month on Foxtel, and then Kayo's $25 a month.

Tommy: It's amazing. I couldn't believe those deals because you bet, like, if you— you wouldn't, I'm guessing, get like NBA and stuff. You probably still need League Pass for that. You get all of that. Really?

Josh: Yeah, you get 50+ sports channels.

Tommy: This sounds like a brand integration.

Josh: Yeah, it's not, it's not, it's not. I just really love it. Or 50+ sports, whatever it is, it's a lot of sport. But get back to your point, now I can't watch Game of Thrones.

Josh: Oh no, so his mum and dad have canned the subscription.

Josh: Yeah, and I was just using it off their pass.

Tommy: Definitely.

Josh: So I got the first ep. Yeah, and then Monday's ep I haven't been able to watch. So I just want to stay off social media so that no one, you know, gives me spoilers.

Tommy: Well, we won't spoil it because I don't watch it at all, but we were yesterday.

Josh: I, nah, I, I watched 2 2 seasons and then I dropped off.

Tommy: So you actually committed to something and then didn't?

Josh: Well, I committed when everyone— it was like 5 seasons in and I did 2 seasons. I just lost, I just lost interest. And then I picked up Vikings and then I was like, this is a bit more full-on, and then I dropped off that.

Tommy: Like pornographic? Is that right? Why you have gotten rid of your porn addiction? Because you're just looking at Vikings?

Josh: Vikings is sort of the same with less fantasy. I watched a bit of Vikings.

Josh: Yes, and that's what I liked about it. I didn't like how much fantasy was in it.

Josh: You don't like dragons?

Josh: No, not really. I don't—

Josh: But don't you just see them as like, as like old-school nuclear bombs? Like that's what they are, that's like it's a metaphor.

Josh: I've never liked sci-fi, and then when it's gone too sort of magical, I haven't enjoyed it.

Tommy: You'll hear Tommy during the screening saying, "Oh, this is a bit silly." You can't ride a dragon, can you? You've got to suspend your disbelief. But the, um, well, if you had one, you would 100% fucking ride it.

Josh: If I had a dragon?

Tommy: Yeah, you would.

Josh: Of course you would.

Josh: So this is the reason I don't have these— I don't watch this show, because then you're getting conversation about if you had a dragon.

Tommy: You've got your own fantasies, like whether you're gonna live in Albert Park or not. But the, um, is it the sex scenes in Vikings versus Game of Thrones, which is sort of more full-on?

Josh: As in, well, because what's full-on?

Tommy: Well, I don't know, I guess like, uh, how close to porn are they?

Josh: Yeah, uh, very close. This, it's softcore really.

Tommy: It's all you see is my thing, sort of. Are they sort of different sort of leagues or are they all very sort of similar?

Josh: You're seeing bush, you're seeing like full nudity. Yep. Do you see full peen? I don't think you see that.

Josh: Oh, maybe a little, not like a little penis, but like a little bit, a little bit of pain.

Tommy: This is definitely gonna be a snippet. Her Instagram.

Josh: Yeah, that's okay.

Tommy: So what we— the reason I was bringing up Game of Thrones is because yesterday we were trying to work out whether it's— is it medieval? Uh, we couldn't work out what mediaeval means.

Josh: Yeah, mediaeval is like, it's like Shakespearean times, right? Yeah, or pre-Shakespearean times.

Tommy: I feel like anyone who's describing medieval, they end the sentence with, right?

Josh: It's right, it's mediaeval with a dust of magic on it because it's mediaeval was a legit time in history but a bit silly.

Tommy: Silly medieval.

Josh: It's pre-sewage. I know that.

Tommy: Okay.

Josh: Yeah, it's when you shat and then just threw it out the window and said, "Oi, old mate." Really?

Tommy: "Watch my shit." I feel like that would ruin any sex scene knowing that there's just shit everywhere.

Josh: Would it ruin it though?

Josh: I think we've painted you, Josh, as a guy who just travels around the world. What I love about what you do, even since when I met you a couple of years, maybe 4 years back, 3 years back, you were in the fitness game. You had a—

Josh: Hold on, hold on, hold on. 4 years back?

Josh: Was it 4 years?

Josh: 3 years? I remember meeting you at high school when you were years below me.

Josh: Really?

Josh: And you were a shocking little human.

Josh: Yeah, exactly.

Tommy: I can imagine. Can you describe Tommy? Can we just go into that for a second?

Josh: A hoodlum.

Tommy: Yeah.

Josh: A hoodlum.

Josh: Yeah.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: A teacher described him. Tommy was described by a teacher. He was— his friend was in a class and Tommy rode his bike passed a classroom and the lady, the teacher, said, 'See that Tommy Jacket Boy? He's a naughty boy.' Yeah, it really sums it up.

Josh: I've got—

Josh: also, you started puberty a lot earlier than a lot of the other boys. He was a big naughty boy.

Josh: I took steroids. No, but I guess meeting you as a, as a reform, as a reformed hoodlum as an adult is when we sort of met and did some work together. But even then you were doing your your personal training stuff and you had your business and you were doing more, you were sort of breaking into the industry, would you say?

Josh: Breaking back into it.

Josh: Breaking back.

Josh: So I took like 18 months out.

Josh: That's right, you did the Ten Tenors.

Josh: Ten Tenors.

Josh: Traveling the world again, fuck, you just are a guy.

Josh: I like to travel. I did West Side Story, a couple of other things. Yeah. And that was all up to about 2000 and, oh, I did Hairspray over in the UK as well. And then so at the end of 2013, I was like, I just need a wee break here. Um, and so I took about 18 months off to start this fitness business, and then I, uh, just missed what I love doing.

Tommy: Yeah.

Josh: And now you're back into it. But what I love about— I mean, I don't even feel like it's— that's my existence, but looking to you and sort of the performances you do, the traveling, the touring, is you do these real hard stints of time where you put it in, like projects. Yeah, they're like projects, I guess.

Tommy: I heard— I was reading an article where they're talking about that's where the whole sort of workforce is going. It's sort of like Hollywood style where you spend 6 months, you all come in as teams, you work on something, and then you leave. And you might work with someone again, but you might, you might not.

Josh: Have you had to adjust to doing those projects or sprints or dedicated extended periods of time to then having nothing?

Josh: Uh, the thing is, when you're doing— when I'm doing nothing, I'm— I feel like I'm— other than that holiday that I took, which was just because I was like, I'd just done a 13-month project, which was beautiful, the Carole King Musical, which was— which really took it out of me because the role was so mentally taxing. Uh, I just needed like 3 months out. Um, after that, I— look, I haven't— can't say I've done another big show or whatever, but I've been in big-time creative mode building towards something. So sometimes that project work is sort of unseen work and it's just behind. And then like, yeah, last week announced an album tour, but we've been working on the back end of that for months. When I say we, my management.

Josh: So maybe it's the what people see is the projects. Yeah, they're seeing the output of the project and then there's all that time because there's not one without the other, right? You need that time off to—

Josh: Totally. And it's the same in every industry. Yeah, I'm sure they're like You know, we, yeah, we see the, uh, we see the new Air Jordans that come out, but they've been working— Michael's been working on that since 1992.

Tommy: Well, they're definitely like— I know, like, with events, uh, once the event finishes, a lot of conferences, it's like, okay, like the next week the conference organisers are back in a room organising for the next year. It's pretty crazy. What's it like? What's the sort of time from when you find out that you're in a musical to it actually being in production? What's the, what's the time?

Josh: So I found out about Beautiful in January 2017. I started auditioning in July '16. I went into rehearsals in August '17 and finished the show in September '18.

Tommy: That's crazy.

Josh: Isn't that nuts?

Josh: God. And so how much time are you putting in before you've even landed the gig? Like, is this— is there a bunch of people out there that wasted 4 months of their life trying to get this job and you won it?

Josh: Oh yeah, of course.

Josh: Far out.

Josh: Yeah, yeah. And then, you know, depending on the role, there's a pre-rehearsal component. I mean, Esther, who played Carol, was— she's not a pianist, but Carol has to play the piano, and she was, um, she was working on all the piano stuff for months and months and months prior to the contract starting.

Tommy: How does the business side of that work? Like, are you contractors? Are you employees? Do you—

Josh: like, how does it— you are contracted on what's called a run of play. And that's a— for however long the show runs, from day 1 of rehearsal until up to 14 months. And at 14 months you get to renegotiate. Beautiful ran for 13 months, so that was the run of play, ended up being 13 months.

Josh: Do you get to, going into it, um, you know, work out how much they're going to pay you? Can you—

Tommy: is it negotiating?

Josh: That's why you have a manager and agent. Yeah, well, my manager James is probably the best guy. Yeah, so you can't call him a bad guy. No one will call him a bad guy.

Josh: We need James.

Josh: Yeah, he's the bomb.

Tommy: And so from a promotional point of view, do they say, okay, this is what we're going to spend on advertising and you're going to be on trams, are you going to be like—

Josh: what's—

Josh: I don't think they really— they don't really tell us about that. They just, um, they just do their thing. Yeah, yeah, that's sort of above us. Like, it's like, uh, Josh and whoever else in the cast, you guys focus on the art and we'll focus on trying to get people to see your art.

Tommy: Yeah.

Josh: What about social media stuff? Are they now saying we want you to create or post X, Y, and Z?

Josh: Uh, I think it's just sort of open. It's more like what not to do.

Josh: Yeah.

Josh: Um, yeah. And the general thing is, if you think this could be something that you shouldn't do, chances are don't do it.

Tommy: Yeah.

Josh: And this podcast is probably one of those things.

Josh: Yeah, but I'm not in a contract.

Tommy: Brand damaging, this, this podcast.

Josh: For me, definitely.

Tommy: And so from a management point of view, are they all year round looking for stuff? Like, what is the typical relationship of a manager?

Josh: Uh, I chat to my manager every day, um, about something. And, and yeah, I mean, uh, generally the difference between an agent and a manager is, uh, an agent will, um, get briefs coming in via email and they'll think about who on their books is appropriate for that particular brief, whether it's, you know, film, TV, musical theater, um, theater. And, uh, and then they will submit those people back to it, whereas, um, you know, then they'll get an audition if they're lucky, and then it's about getting the gig and then negotiating a contract. Um, and that's a very black and white version of it. I'm sure lots of agents do more than that, but a manager is more like out there looking for— actively looking for ideas. And like, my manager and I— I'll just call him James. Yeah, James and I, um, have have worked for months on putting together all the pieces for this album tour. Yeah, um, that's not something I don't think is expected from an agent. Uh, so, you know, we've been working tirelessly for— yeah, I would say since the start of the year on this. Uh, I've been working creatively since the album came out in April on ideas for a tour, uh, but like, I literally couldn't have done this shit without, without him.

Tommy: And does James have multiple clients at once? And do you collaborate?

Josh: He does, but I think James would probably say that I, I hog James' time. I definitely hog James' time.

Josh: Why not? Um, I, I got asked yesterday about— I don't know if it was like, can you give me advice? It was a question that was basically saying, what do you think about this? Which I guess is someone asking you for their advice, for your advice. And I, and I struggle, and it was around podcasting. And I struggle sort of slipping into, you know, I guess all I've got to go on is my experience. And sometimes you can be jaded in certain respects to certain areas or know how hard it was for you, and then that's the advice you end up giving. And so it's like I always have to sort of double-check myself on giving advice. This— I can imagine you've been asked advice around getting into musical theatre, and I can— and I know from your journey that it's been tough at times. How do you go about giving advice when someone is asking you, should I, I really want to get into musical theatre?

Josh: Yeah, I think when I started I would be like, I Tony Robbins it a bit, like big hands clapping. Yeah, Tony Robbins. And I think that's just sort of like my nature to try and, you know, be positive and inspirational, and that's sort of very normal for me. But, uh, recently when people— like, because people contact me semi-often about it, um, students or people who want to become students or pursue—

Josh: Josh, I know Josh Janson was—

Tommy: you knock on the door, knocking on the door. I would like to do a bit of musical theater.

Josh: Give it a bit of razzle dazzle.

Tommy: Yeah, I've definitely got the razzle, not so much dazzle, unfortunately.

Josh: You need both. You do need both. I think now I, I basically say that it's, um, it's so much more hard work, persistence, uh, dedication, mindset than it is talent. Like, the amount of talent really at the start is, you know, if you've got some God-given gift, that I think that's really rare to have that. Um, but probably like, like I always bring it back to athletes, I reckon the AFL has, you know 30 guys who are just above and beyond athletically or have some other— if there's a whole bunch who are probably in the middle, and the ones that work hardest, who train hardest, who are most dedicated, who are most focused, who do probably the most work on their mindset and stuff, um, are the ones who have long careers. It's not necessarily just talent only gets you so far, probably in actually in any career.

Tommy: Yeah, but the great thing about the sort of the athletes is you can actually watch them all with KO.

Josh: And so are you saying that your advice or, you know, your suggestion or your conversation with these people is, is more real now than— oh yeah, just as in real to true to your experience.

Tommy: Yeah, so less motivational maybe.

Josh: Yeah, yeah, who's the example? Who's, who's the more the real person these days that's dishing up advice?

Josh: Probably Jay Pizzle.

Josh: Yeah, who?

Josh: That's me.

Tommy: Okay, we'll start calling you Jay Pizzle. It's got cut through clearly.

Josh: And what do you, what What do you think people are— how do you think people are responding to this?

Josh: Uh, I think it always like breeds an internal conversation rather than going, yeah, cool, well, I'm gonna do it then, like, I'm gonna do a musical. Yeah. Um, it's— yeah, it makes them think a little bit more, do I really want to pursue this? Um, which is— which, you know, it's a really fucking tough industry.

Tommy: Yeah.

Josh: Um, it's super competitive, especially in this country. You know, there's only ever half a dozen shows on at any one time max. Um, so let's say like 120 people are doing musicals in this country. Like, that's not really very much.

Tommy: So, um, it's good being tough, I guess, early, because it's like if they can get past you being real about it, then they're probably more likely— if you have to sort of sugarcoat it up front, you're probably, you know, setting them up for—

Josh: so it's like '90s pop culture reference, which obviously I'm into, but it's like facing Vulcan in the gauntlet, um, in the Gladiators, but like, like he's the first one up, and then once you get past that, you should be able to get—

Tommy: yeah.

Josh: And so are you Vulcan? Is that what you're saying now?

Tommy: Can I be, um, who's the guy from Who Dares Wins?

Josh: Mike Whitney.

Tommy: Yeah, you can be, um, yeah, I'd love to have Mike Whitney on the show.

Josh: I'd love to.

Tommy: Yeah, I'd love to.

Josh: I'd love it too.

Josh: I'd love to.

Josh: I'd love Tanya Zayed on here too.

Tommy: Oh yeah, Tanya would be great. Do you know Tanya?

Josh: Uh, I'm sure you saw Tanya at Boutique a few times, the nightclub. I used to see her at Boutique nightclub in Melbourne.

Josh: Yeah, bloody hell, you probably promoted it.

Tommy: Did you ever promote?

Josh: Never promoted a club. I just got VIP passes.

Tommy: That's what—

Josh: that was all I was— that was my mission. If only I channelled my fucking energy somewhere else.

Tommy: So free drinks, is that what that gives you?

Josh: Free entrance, not lining up, bring people in. Straight up rockstar entrance.

Josh: Did you get free drinks?

Josh: Free drinks, yeah.

Josh: So you were promoter?

Josh: Nah, no, I never— I always looked at the promoters, um, you looked down on them? No, I looked at the promoters growing up and thought, fucking, like, this— they had some resilience in like just always having a front about how good the club was even if there was no one there.

Josh: Yeah, I promoted at 7.

Josh: Did you?

Josh: Yeah. Do you want to know something really bad?

Josh: What?

Josh: I probably went at 7 for about 18 months, and then I had my 18th at 7. Yeah, and they were like, it's your 18th? I'm like, yeah, I'm so about— well, I'm 18 now, so let's just forget about that.

Josh: It was so lax, clubs in Melbourne, like getting in.

Tommy: I've never been to a club. Good. If you can believe it. I know I look like a clubbing kind of guy.

Josh: Maybe that's the dazzle you're searching for.

Tommy: It could be. No, I remember filming at nightclubs when I was like 16. I went to the Colonial Hotel. Would you count that as a nightclub?

Josh: Oh, they did the— they did the—

Tommy: it was all the uni events. Yeah, or whatever.

Josh: But you were there to film?

Tommy: Yeah.

Josh: You can't say you've been—

Tommy: so I'd film things, but I would get free drinks or whatever, so I'd give it to a mate who would go and get pissed.

Josh: And I would— at nighttime though?

Tommy: Yeah, it was in the evenings.

Josh: Okay.

Tommy: Yeah, when all-night clubs sort of happened.

Josh: Yeah, I know, but I could see maybe you just filming during the day.

Tommy: Yeah, you could definitely had that sort of vibe.

Josh: You know, that's the ugliest thing in the world is a nightclub during the day.

Tommy: Do they use them for anything during the day?

Josh: I saw one on the weekend in Port Melbourne in the back streets in the industrial area.

Tommy: Neverland, was it?

Josh: Maybe.

Tommy: Because Neverland, I remember I was very excited when I was making my Year 12 film.

Josh: Oh no, it's not there.

Tommy: I nearly got— we had pyrotechnics and we needed to find somewhere to film this scene and they had like a view of the city. But anyway, it turns out the pyrotechnic guy had double booked with a 30th birthday on on Beach Road in Albert Park.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: And so we ended up setting up like a marquee tent thing because it was raining, and we filmed their pyrotechnics for the party with us in the foreground for the scene.

Josh: You stole their pyrotechnics?

Tommy: Yeah, we stole their pyrotechnics.

Josh: Free pyrotechnics?

Tommy: I think it cost me $300.

Josh: For the marquee?

Tommy: For the— yeah.

Josh: And how much do you reckon the pyrotechnics were?

Tommy: Oh, I reckon— the guy seemed to be doing a lot of favours for a lot of people, so I don't know what was going on. But it turned into a beach scene 'cause it was at the Anglers Club.

Josh: That actually, that's a good idea.

Josh: Drugs.

Tommy: Yeah, yeah, exactly.

Josh: Yeah, it has that vibe.

Tommy: But you could definitely, yeah, like batch things. I tried to get at the Melbourne Jail 'cause there was a good view, but they just got installed fake grass and they're worried that we're gonna catch the whole grass on fire.

Josh: It's probably a worry.

Tommy: Have you done any shows that have had pyrotechnics in them?

Josh: I did this little one on Australia Day at the Sydney Opera House.

Tommy: Yeah.

Josh: That probably had about 60,000 people there and about $10 million worth of pyrotechnics. Really? Yeah, I got to sing Nessun Dorma, which is like the Pavarotti aria. So if you wanna head over to my Instagram, you can definitely watch that if you scroll down about 6 rows.

Josh: I've seen that.

Josh: It was the most, I tried to undersell it, but now I'm just gonna oversell it.

Josh: Yeah, please do.

Josh: It was the most epic fucking gig I've ever done in my life. I made so many little turds my pants before I went on. I was so nervous.

Tommy: Did they give you any— so did any pyrotechnics go off during your bit?

Josh: Yeah, it was, it's a, it was literally—

Tommy: oh, that's what I've seen.

Josh: This is like, like, it's like fireworks going off the Opera House and going off the harbour. And like, this was nothing. Like, like, if I, I would literally need to rob the Commonwealth Bank to be able to afford this, to do a video clip.

Tommy: So it wasn't part of someone else's 30th that you would just sort of the It was a part of Australia.

Josh: And so what's that process of having the nerves and actually doing it anyway? What do you say to yourself?

Josh: I go into mantra land, like Instagram moment, Instagram. Instagramo, Instagramo. I definitely do a lot of, I mean, we talked about this last time, avid meditator, love the meditation, love what it's done for my mindset. But in moments of high pressure, it's like I can go into a series of mantras that are about more than the performing. Like, I'll talk about, um, I'm, I'm still, I'm grounded, I'm free, I'm powerful. And that, that's the sort of stuff I repeat. They're my, like, go-tos. And then, you know, as soon as that music started, um, it was just a sea of, of people all on the the foreground of the Opera House.

Tommy: Amazing.

Josh: And I'm sort of halfway through the song. I was just loving it, but I was sort of halfway through the song and then the choir kick in and I got a moment to just sort of take it all in before the big ending. And I was just like, this is the coolest thing in the history of your life, Pittamore. And this is like, it was sort of like I was sort of witnessing.

Tommy: J Pizzle.

Josh: J Pizzle. I was sort of witnessing my own like—

Tommy: Like out-of-body experience.

Josh: It was so out of body. What, uh, uh, Eckhart Tolle probably refers to as the observer. It was like I was observing my own life and I'm like, it actually doesn't get better than this.

Tommy: Yeah.

Josh: Um, bring it home, baby, was the sort of vibe. And it was just, yeah, it was just electric. And then I didn't know that the fireworks were going to go off, so I'm like, surely they should, surely they should tell you, because they said, do you want to know what John Foreman, who was the creative director, said, do you want to know what happens? And I'm like, absolutely not, don't tell me what happens. Because I just want to be in the moment. And an elephant comes on stage.

Tommy: Josh is riding it. Yeah, pyrotechnics either way.

Josh: That's, yeah, that was a subtle pyrotechnic job that I've got to do.

Tommy: I feel like in the same scenario, if I was as talented as you were in that experience, I feel like every behind the scenes thing I watch of different performers, they're always saying, "My fucking in-ears, my in-ears." Taking it out. Yeah.

Josh: Is that what happens?

Tommy: Is that like, 'cause you're talking about this meditative sort of mantra thing, but I feel like most realities it's people swearing about their in-ears.

Josh: Okay, the in-ears were golden. I got some fresh in-ears for my B-day in October.

Tommy: Yeah.

Josh: And Oh, BYO in-ears?

Josh: Is that what people are doing?

Josh: Yeah, you've got to have your own in-ears.

Josh: Yeah, but Josh will suck them.

Tommy: AirPod reference. My AirPod's got wax and I Googled how to fix it and they said to suck on the—

Josh: You think I didn't see this episode? Yeah, I know all about this.

Tommy: So are they molded? Are they specifically moulded for your ear? Are these like ones like—

Josh: No, they're Shure 535s, so they're almost as good as you can get sound quality without being molded, but they were banging. Yeah, because previously I'd had an episode, um, I'd had two, both doing the national anthem at sporting events.

Tommy: Yeah.

Josh: And both, like, one was like, it was cutting in and out and it was so hard.

Tommy: I think you talked about that in the last show. You had to— did you flick it out or what'd you end up doing?

Josh: Yeah, I definitely did that at one of them, but at the, uh, New Year's Test at the SCG, not this year, last year, We did 2 sound checks, then I went out to do the gig and it's about 3 minutes before, like, in-ear check, in-ear check. I'm like, not working. Oh really? No, no, not working. Nothing, nothing at all coming through. Oh, okay, we'll get that sorted. 30 seconds to go, in-ear check. No, this— there's still nothing. All right, well, you are going to go out with no in-ears. And so like, we— yeah, so you just sort of go out absolutely naked. There's a bit of fold back. Yeah, but the thing about stadium gigs is everyone's singing that anthem as well. And it's all bounced back, so they're all seeing it in different times. So it's actually like, you just—

Tommy: you want everyone to shut the fuck up so you can concentrate.

Josh: Yep, but they're not because they're patriotic.

Tommy: Yeah.

Josh: Um, so you're basically just trying to keep time, just humming.

Josh: What's the mantra then?

Josh: Don't fuck it up.

Josh: Well, we had a comedian whose mantra before walking on stage was, I'm the best, I'm the best, I am the best. Which is, I guess using words to centre yourself, I guess, is—

Tommy: yeah, he's creating a level of confidence when— which you, in these scenarios, you need. I guess for some people they need the extra confidence boost and other people need to recenter the other way. Yeah. How do you feel after the Sydney Opera House gig? Is it— is the morning after like, do you feel great, or are you like, well, I've peaked now? Do you go into like a depressive mode like 3 days later where it's like, I love it, just go straight to depression? Yeah, well, I just feel like I would. I feel like it's like, it's a high, the high, and it's like, well, I fucking, I've done it now.

Josh: Well, it was, it was a high, it was a super high. And, um, but tell us about the low.

Tommy: Tell us about the high first.

Josh: Uh, I, yeah, it was hard to get to sleep and, um, I wanted to watch it back and, uh, and my girlfriend Charlotte had come out from London to be there for it. Well, she came out to be there regardless, but it was a double thing that she got to see. And yeah, we were just both on a high. Then I think I couldn't get to sleep till like 3:00 AM, maybe later. And then we had to get up at 6:00 for a flight back. So I think I was in that sort of seedy hungover, although I hadn't really had anything to drink. So it was just sort of a mess for a couple of days. I don't think I ever crashed.

Tommy: Yeah, I guess it's good.

Josh: I mean, are you choosing— do you think you could choose to write to be grateful for the high? Yeah, I think it's also like going, I'm shit now, that was so good yesterday, now today's bad.

Tommy: I think part of it probably is like preparation in regards to like you've prepared to for that moment. If you had— if that was your first gig that you'd landed, I think it would probably be a different sort of thing, right? It's like hockey stick growth. You can fucking go up and then the crash is bigger, where it's like you've been building on this and for years and years.

Josh: Totally. That's sort of my career. Like, uh, the amount of times I've been asked, oh, you know, can you go on The Voice? Or even people who work on the show.

Tommy: Yeah.

Josh: Um, or X Factor or whatever. And I was like, no, no, because I, I get the sense that for me, um, it would be, uh, sort of short-term gain, long-term pain.

Tommy: Yeah.

Josh: Um, it'd just be that, yeah, that, that, that, that spike, like an insulin spike. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's like like having 6 Violet Crumbles in a minute. And so I've always gone—

Tommy: That described my Easter.

Josh: So it's sort of steady, steady, steady. So yeah, I feel like I've been building up to that for over a decade. So it was sort of immense pride at the work, but then I just couldn't not be grateful for all the people around me, especially John Foreman, who I worked on the album with. Really, if he didn't want to work on that project with me, I know that he probably wouldn't have, you know, asked me to do the gig. And then, yeah, Jane's my manager again. And then I was really grateful for Charlotte because I was pretty nervy during the day of Australia Day, and she was, you know, can you eat? Like, you're like, no, I couldn't. I couldn't even iron my shirt well. And she's like, oh sweetheart, I'm ironing your wee shirt for you. And, uh, yeah, um, and she was just like the, you know, the kindest thing. So, uh, yeah, there was a lot of, a lot of that. Yeah, it was still a bit out of, out of body again. I was, yeah, sort of, yeah, sort of seeing it all and going, fuck, this is crazy.

Josh: James, his manager, actually demanded the fireworks.

Josh: Josh only will perform with $10 million worth of fireworks.

Josh: Um, since we last saw you, I don't think you had a girlfriend.

Josh: Charlotte.

Josh: Since I had you on the show, I've spoken to you since. She's a musician, singer-songwriter.

Josh: Yeah, I met her 3 weeks after I saw you guys.

Josh: Oh, crazy.

Tommy: Weird omen like that, I think.

Josh: Yeah, I really felt like you, like, Jesus delivered.

Josh: We sent you and you found your way to Charlotte.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: So thank us, please. No, I don't want to thank you.

Josh: Oh, okay. You won't get it.

Tommy: Thank you.

Josh: Thank you.

Josh: So only from a quick stalk from the photos you put, I can see that she's a musician. What's that like? My wife isn't a podcaster, isn't a video person. She's not in the same sort of creative space. How is that having a partner that is vying for a similar sort of, you know, a similar thing? Or is there no similarity?

Tommy: Do you have duets in the evenings together?

Josh: Do you sing naked in a—

Josh: Did you spell that J-E-W? JDW. Do you say duet?

Tommy: Duet. Duet.

Josh: Oh, he did duet.

Tommy: Should I say duet? Duet.

Josh: Duet.

Tommy: Nice. But yeah, JDW. I was 100% saying duet.

Josh: We have— we're actually writing a song at the moment called Love Is All We Need with John Foreman, which is great, which I'll get to drop on my album to her for the first time. So that's the first time we sort of collabed on anything.

Josh: Are you gonna get her out on stage? Is she gonna come out to Australia?

Josh: No, it's not a duet. It's not a duet.

Tommy: It's actually a duet with John and Josh. Charlotte's just third-wheeling the—

Josh: Just sitting on the sidelines. It never feels competitive. It never has that vibe. It only feels supportive. She's very much in a sort of pop or indie pop world of singer-songwriting and like the classical crossover artist musical theatre guy is like, they're just not in the same realm.

Tommy: Yeah, so it almost feels like different industries, do you think?

Josh: Yeah, but with a sort of great understanding of the shit that you go through, the emotional stuff. So that support is really strong.

Josh: And then is that a hard thing also? Because I could imagine both experiencing the same challenges, that could actually— I mean, one of you has to be strong at all times, you know. It's—

Josh: or you, you both feel shit and you can feel shit together.

Tommy: Okay.

Josh: Um, which is— which has happened. Or you're both up, or one's up, one's down. I mean, that's just how it is. I just think as long as you have great communication and that you're empathetic and understanding, uh, then, you know, you— and you're not a dick, um, or a duck, as you would say. Yeah, we duck, uh, then it things are normally fine. I mean, we're only sort of almost 6 months in, so, um, you know, we're still at, uh, in a honeymoon phase. Yeah, it's a honeymoon phase to a degree, and to another degree it's not. Um, we've had a lot of challenges already because we do long distance. Yeah, uh, we've had 2 months together of those almost 6 months. So, um, you know, we've put ourselves into a pretty tough battle, uh, As I said, I go over Thursday morning for a wee bit, and then she comes back out middle of June, and then I go back in July. So we're trying to do as much as we can to make the geography of it work.

Tommy: I was listening to Spotify the other morning and I have like the weekly playlist type of thing, and I was like, fuck, I know this song. And it was your cover of Iris playing.

Josh: Really?

Tommy: Yeah. So it was like, that's when Spotify was fucking in my, in my feed.

Josh: Well, I was listening to New Music Italy.

Tommy: I don't know what— yeah, it must be on that. No, but I think it was because I'd been listening a bunch previously or whatever, and it just sort of re-delivers songs that you'd heard or whatever.

Josh: But really, the songs that you really like.

Tommy: Yeah, I think so. Well, that's why I do love fucking— I've said to Tommy that I prefer covers always over the original song. Really? Why is that? I think that it just like adds a different element to something.

Josh: I don't know, it just feels like it can go one of two ways: ruin it or make it better.

Tommy: Westlife, Uptown Girl.

Josh: More than Billy Joel.

Tommy: Yeah, uh, Smash Mouth's I'm a Believer.

Josh: This is also very telling of his music taste, which I don't think is—

Josh: it's very '90s. Yeah, hold up, the other day I posted something on Instagram which was you bagged out Nickelback, which is one of my favorite, uh, yes, artists. I didn't actually say anything, it was just a long sigh and some rolling eyes.

Tommy: I thought you said Nickel Crap.

Josh: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, about that. Yeah, because look at this photograph.

Tommy: Is that Nickelback?

Josh: Yeah, that is. Every time I do it makes me laugh. Had a couple of kids back then. And what the hell was on Johnny's head? Like some of the worst lyrics of all time. But I did a post about roses are red Violet's, uh, April is gray, but in a few weeks, picture of Justin Timberlake.

Tommy: I didn't fucking understand it at all.

Josh: I don't get it.

Tommy: No, it's gonna be me.

Josh: You didn't get the '90s reference? Like, how do people not get that?

Tommy: I don't even think it's a '90s— it's a very obscure— you've given people a riddle. It's not amazing.

Josh: It's an incredible riddle.

Tommy: Yeah, I know, but it's—

Josh: and if you can unlock a '90s pop culture reference through a riddle, you are— through a riddle, you You, that's basically Game of Thrones there.

Tommy: The, uh, the national anthem, the lyrics of the national anthem, can we go through it very quickly but slowly? How does, how does the national anthem start again? Because I used to sing it in school. Australians all let us rejoice, all let us rejoice, for we are young and free. Weave, weave, weave.

Josh: Golden soil.

Tommy: I thought it was with.

Josh: No, no, we have golden soil. We've golden soil.

Tommy: I should— I think I should change it.

Josh: Is it we've got— we've got—

Tommy: we've fucking got golden soil and a bunch of CNX Q-says. So we've, uh, we've—

Josh: we've golden soil. Yeah, we've got wealth for toil.

Tommy: Wealth for toil. Our home is Girt. It's Girt.

Josh: Yeah, it's true. It's not Kurt.

Tommy: Does he really like that?

Josh: I was just, you know, when you're butchering it in, um, Like Douglas?

Tommy: Kurt, Kurt Bice. Like Kurt Douglas? Kurt is Gert, Gert Bice, and then where does it go? Our land abound in nature's gifts, gifts, gifts of beauty rich and rare.

Josh: In history's page, let every stage, let every stage, like every single stage, advance, advance Australia. Fair. Yeah, lyrically not great. Do you know Joyful Strains?

Tommy: Strains?

Josh: We used to say strass. Like, like, enjoy strass and let us sing.

Josh: Then let us sing.

Tommy: Do you have to, as, as someone who has done the national anthem, do you need to know the, the second verse? Is it a verse? Is it beneath our radiant Southern Cross?

Josh: We'll toil with hearts and hands.

Josh: I just handed over to the crowd.

Josh: When do you have to do it? Make this commonwealth of ours renowned through all the lands. For those who've come across the seas with boundless plains to share, with courage let us all combine to advance Australia's fair. Enjoyful strains, and let us sing Advance Australia Fair. Yes, I got a second verse!

Tommy: The second— when do you ever get to do the second verse?

Josh: On Australia Day we did it.

Tommy: Oh really? Oh, that's good.

Josh: But we did have it on the autocue.

Tommy: It's like the encore. Yeah, everyone's probably like goes to sit down and then you have it.

Josh: I, uh, yeah, I learned at a primary school. We had to do two verses of it every Monday or something at primary school.

Josh: Did you go to a Jewish primary school?

Josh: Uh, no, no, I went to Auburn South. Yeah, in East Hawthorn.

Josh: But then you went to, and then you went to Wesley. Yeah, we were, we were pumping it out at Wesley.

Tommy: Yep, pumping it out, beg your pardon.

Josh: Just pumping it out, you know.

Tommy: What is that?

Josh: Pumping out the hoodlums on a Monday.

Josh: That's the Dazzle. No, we in that, what was that? No, what was the big hall at Wesley Prahran?

Josh: Adamson.

Josh: Yeah, Adamson.

Josh: Yeah, that's where it was, your playground. Yeah, that's, that's where I think lyrics can be up to interpretation with the—

Tommy: when it comes in, as in whether or not they're correct or not, up to interpretation. The, the Strays example. Uh, but with, uh, when you're doing a cover, what is the actual— like, you know, you've got all licencing and shit. I remember hearing somewhere where it's like, oh, Smash Mouth, I remember, changed I'm a Believer slightly to The Monkees version because I loved The Monkees version. Did you have to, when you were doing Iris, do you, did you change certain words to give it a bit of Jay Pizzle?

Josh: Yeah, I did it in Italian.

Tommy: Was it Italian? 30%?

Josh: Yeah, so that's, that's, that's a strong change.

Tommy: So from a translation point of view, do you have to, like, was that part of it being in Italian? I can't, I can't even fucking remember that it was in Italian. I was still into it. Yeah, and I still even knew the song. I was I was probably fucking singing in English, no idea.

Josh: Which is cool because some people like to— like, people have, you know, responded to it, have said, oh, I've tried to learn it phonetically in Italian. Yeah, we'll go, no, I just sing along in English.

Josh: Yeah, that's great.

Tommy: I think that's what I was doing.

Josh: So there's no copyright, you don't have to worry about that when it's, uh—

Josh: no, you still pay APRA. Yeah, which is the governing body, um, and therefore the, the original writer still, uh, makes a buck out of it.

Tommy: Yeah.

Josh: So, um, and I mean, but some were like— the version of Creep I did um, was actually already a cover in Italian.

Josh: And the, uh, version of Crepe is, um, original. Yeah, I'm just a crepe.

Tommy: Yeah, that's what it's going for.

Josh: Um, so the guy who—

Tommy: the Italian guy covering the COVID then.

Josh: Yeah, because the lyrics have got nothing to do with being a crepe. The lyrics— it's— the song's actually called Ad ogni costo. Which is At Any Cost. And it's about typical Italian thing. It's about ending up with a woman who treats you like shit at any cost. You're just a slave to this woman. So it's got actually nothing to do with being a weirdo.

Josh: Oh, it's about being a cuck.

Tommy: At any cuck.

Josh: At any cuck.

Tommy: We've had Josh Simons on the show before who's—

Josh: Do you just have Joshes?

Tommy: Yeah, we're a Josh show.

Josh: We had a lot of Josh Fields-Milburn. Josh Janson, he's on all the time. Yeah, annoying.

Tommy: What a fucker. Josh Simon. But Josh Simon was talking about, uh, he's performed at, uh, uh, big, uh, state— like arenas or whatever it is. And he was talking about the— that you make bank basically when you perform your own song if you've like written and all that sort of thing.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: Have you ever had one of those experiences where it's like, fuck, not only have I got this great experience but I'm doing one of my, uh, own tracks? So based on the amount of people that are in the audience, I'm gonna walk away doing all right?

Josh: Uh, no, because, uh, this song, Love Is All We Need, yeah, is my first original.

Tommy: Oh really?

Josh: Yeah, I like being a crossover artist. You, you generally do a lot of covers. Like you sit there, you're singing Time to Say Goodbye like a million times over. Great tune, cracking tune. Um, the old Bocelli, you know, just a winner. Um, So to do your own stuff is a bit rare.

Tommy: Yeah.

Josh: But I really want to write stuff. I've been writing poetry for quite some time and it just—

Tommy: Do you read poems much? Yeah. I just bought a book called How to Read Poems.

Josh: First word and then the next and then the next.

Tommy: No, there's a whole— it was fucking a big book too. Geez. Dan de Booth, who we've had on the show, recommended it for me to read. Anyway, has it changed the way it's like—

Josh: I haven't read anything about reading poems.

Tommy: It's more of a signaling. I'm like, I'm a creative artistic guy who cares about—

Josh: So is it one of those things where you go for coffee somewhere in Fitzroy or Collingwood and you just have it?

Tommy: Yeah.

Josh: Does a poem translate to a song? Is that why you write poems?

Josh: Not always. Well, Charlotte said to me that sometimes my lyric writing is too poetic. It's too much governed by perfect rhymes and all that kind of stuff.

Tommy: I love a good rhyme.

Josh: Yeah, I love a good rhyme too, but she's like, no, you need some sort of imperfect rhymes and stuff like that. Just like, like, it doesn't need to be so clinical. Um, so I'm working on that, I'm working on that. So she sort of grabbed the song that I've written and, um, and tore it apart.

Tommy: She took out 4 of the rhymes. Yeah, well, I feel like rhyming could be potentially like a— Bree found her old diaries when she was growing up and she found that there was a lot of rhyming, like when she was doing poems. It feels like it's when you're in school, it's a very common thing. When you think poetry, you've got to think every fucking line has to rhyme in time. In time, yeah, exactly.

Josh: So otherwise it's a crime, you'll receive a fine and no one will eat Limes.

Tommy: Perfect. Another great Instagram bit. So is the lyric writing versus the poetry stuff— do a lot of people start poem then turn them into lyrics? Then get a girlfriend who tells them to pull their head in. Exactly.

Josh: Yeah, I don't know.

Josh: I don't know what people's journeys are like. For Lottie, like Charlotte, she went and did a Bachelor of Arts in songwriting, so she spent 3 years of writing a song every day, really.

Tommy: Yeah.

Josh: So you just get— you probably create your own methodology. And whether or not you write poetry on the side or whatever is— I'm not sure. I don't know how. I think people approach it from all different angles. Um, uh, I reckon Daniel Johns probably writes a lot of poetry. He seems like a pretty— what's he—

Josh: is he still playing? Is he still—

Josh: I'm sure he is. I'm sure they're creating stuff. He seems like too creative a man to not create. Um, but yeah, some of this— the rhymes in this song that I was working on were too poetic. Um, and the poetry I read is a lot of love poetry. Um, anyone, any, uh, anyone ever read Atticus?

Josh: No.

Josh: Yeah, yeah, it's pretty, it's pretty romantic, magical shit. So that's what—

Tommy: like, do you read it and go, fuck, that was good, that was a good rhyme?

Josh: Yeah, that's my phone.

Tommy: Uh, poetry, uh, cover.

Josh: Have you got a— can you read a poem that you've read, you've written?

Tommy: What about poetry, like Spotify for poetry?

Josh: Yeah, well, there's some— what's that? What's that? Slam poetry.

Tommy: If you have to search—

Josh: style poetry.

Tommy: If you have to search for an Instagram account, uh, to find the poetry, it's very new age of you.

Josh: I could imagine you got into— you'd get into slam poetry.

Tommy: He's about to read us memes, guys. This is a great one, a '90s reference no one will get.

Josh: So this is Atticus.

Josh: This is Atticus. I just want to find it.

Tommy: So it's Atticus.

Josh: Oh, here we go. She was someone who, if the plane was going down and everyone was screaming, she would look me in the eyes and laugh, and her laugh would make me laugh, and then we'd both be laughing, the two crazy people laughing as our plane was going down.

Tommy: Oh wow, like Malaysia Airlines.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: Little poem there.

Josh: Yeah, that's, uh, what was that?

Josh: MH.

Tommy: Little bit dark.

Josh: Little bit dark. That's nice. So I don't really write a lot of stuff to do with plane crashes.

Tommy: That's not your shtick.

Josh: That's not my shtick.

Tommy: Don't do that on a fucking Jetstar flight or whatever. They'll take you off the plane.

Josh: But I definitely do some—

Josh: Is this yours?

Josh: Yeah, this is a bit mine.

Tommy: You've put a little background on it.

Josh: You've signed it off J Pizzle. Oh my gosh.

Josh: When he looked into her eyes, he saw her soul and similarly felt vulnerable enough to allow her to do the same. They were intertwined physically, emotionally, and spiritually. It was the deepest love they'd ever made. So that was mine.

Tommy: Before they crashed the plane.

Josh: Yeah, before the plane crashed because they were trying to join the Mile High Club and it all went wrong. So that's a bit of my vibe.

Tommy: Do you journal?

Josh: Yeah, daily.

Tommy: Really? Have you got like, I wanna get into fountain pens. Do you have a fountain pen?

Josh: No, I have a biro that I use terribly. I'm a terrible writer. Like, I, I should be— I'm the son of a doctor, but I should be a doctor myself.

Tommy: That sounds like a poem. I'm a son of a doctor, I should be a doctor myself.

Josh: What's the next part?

Tommy: Um, self. Um, it doesn't matter. I need to, I need some help, some help, some help.

Josh: Yeah, save him. No, he's actually saying he's actually saying help, help, help.

Tommy: Yeah, no, that was, that was beautiful. I think if you pieces multiple times, it has more cut-through.

Josh: Yeah, as long as when you read it you make every time you say it slightly different. It's like when you sing a song, you can't say help, help, you'd say help, help, help, help.

Tommy: I think the help was the same each time, but it was definitely the pause is different.

Josh: What are you writing about in your journal?

Josh: Or is it nothing?

Josh: As in writing about nothing, whatever.

Josh: It's a gratitude journal. So I start the day with 3 things I'm grateful for in life, 1 thing I'd change from yesterday, an action or a behaviour or something that happened. I write—

Tommy: How often are they based on food? I feel like it would always be for me. I wish I didn't have those fucking entries. It's a food diary, man. How often is it that food related?

Josh: It sometimes is, like didn't need the 3rd donut. Yeah, yeah. So occasionally, yeah, sure. And then it's, um, some I am mantras, like I was talking about. I am before I go on stage, that sort of stuff. And then 3 things that I'm, I'm gonna do today. So like, it might be I'm going to train, or I'm not going to be an absolute asshole to Josh and Tommy. Yeah, like something, right?

Josh: Intention.

Josh: Intention.

Josh: The intention for the day.

Tommy: Yeah. Do you put it into like an A4?

Josh: How big is The, uh, my journal would be an A5 journal, half an A4.

Tommy: Is that what that is?

Josh: I believe so.

Josh: Small book.

Josh: Yeah, just a small— and it's a really nice thing to do at the start of the day. So it's like that and meditate, and like, it just sort of sets my day up to go, um, to, to reflect on life a bit and to reflect on the people in my life and things in my life, um, because I think we can just go about business and just forget about that stuff. And then it sort of sets up my day so I know that like those 3 intentions, I go, well, do I look back on it the day after and go, did I achieve those things? Why not? Why didn't I achieve?

Tommy: So you look back. I think looking back is good.

Josh: Yeah.

Josh: So you do present, so great, grateful for now.

Josh: Yep. Past, something that I would change, and then intentions for the day and some I, some I am, which are um, mantras.

Josh: I, I've been doing quite a bit of consistent meditation this month. I haven't missed a day, but I've just been thinking—

Josh: is that new for you?

Josh: Well, I, I'm— yeah, this year since I've seen you, definitely. I mean, my mum was a meditation— has— is a meditation teacher, has been for a very long time before it was cool. But I've got into it a lot more.

Tommy: I'm not asking if you, if your mum meditated. Did you meditate? No, the answer is no.

Josh: No, but no, but what I'm saying is, and where I'm going with this is. I've been realising lately from meditating, he's going, what I've been thinking about times in my life. So I was thinking about a time where I was in a different relationship and where my mind was at and what, how I wasn't meditating. And I was thinking, fuck, like my mind now is racing, but I'm more present of what my thoughts are and where I'm focusing on them. I was like, without that, it's like fucking dangerous looking back. And that's what, like, that's one of the main things.

Tommy: Consciousness.

Josh: Yeah, well, it's just a hyper— it's, um, thinking about thinking. Cognitive dissonance, is that it?

Josh: Thinking about thinking, like the opposite of awareness.

Josh: Yeah. And so thinking about my thinking, it's like, fuck, I feel like I was a different person when I wasn't doing that.

Josh: And we all do that. It's like, it's like, uh, storylining. So, you know, we, we create an idea that doesn't exist It's not fact, like— It's my favourite thing to do. That person hates me. That person absolutely hates me. And you go back to a conversation you had with them and you take it from a perspective that is one-sided and jaded with all the things that you are putting on it rather than what maybe actually happened if you were someone watching that conversation. And then you spiral down a line of catastrophizing and nightmaring about this. And then you you sort of believe in this fiction about your relationship with this person.

Tommy: That's why I can't have social media. I've retired from my personal social media. Yeah, just because it's like, it's so easy to like click through and being like, oh yeah, and then you can create these stories. And then before you know it, all these people who you actually normally like in real life, you think are fucking idiots online. So it's—

Josh: what was the Nickelback moment?

Tommy: Nickel crap, I believe is what you said. Was it nickel crap.

Josh: Is that what he said?

Josh: Yeah, yeah.

Tommy: Do you think Nickelback get a hard time though, in all seriousness, or no? You think they epitomize—

Josh: I think they give zero fuck because they're making bank.

Tommy: Yeah, sure.

Josh: They've become the meme though, right? For a lot of, a lot of people, it's like, shit, they think it's shit music, but I'll listen to it and laugh and sing along.

Tommy: Yeah.

Josh: Back to your medis.

Josh: Yes.

Josh: Uh, what, what do you think's changed as a, um, as a person, as a dad, as a partner, as a, as a partner?

Josh: Well, I think just this realisation of, um, in a constant showing up to think about my thinking, where I've always thought and I thought, oh, I can sort of go deep and think about my thinking, but that's showing up and doing it every day and just thinking about thoughts and what they are and how much meaning they actually have. One thing I've real— one thing that this meditation programme is doing is he's saying when a thought comes in, don't try— don't shut it out, actually observe it. And it actually then just slowly disappears. And so it's like this weird fucking thing that thoughts that are coming in, I'm not choosing for them to come in, they're just happening and disappearing, and then something else is coming. So I'm just sort of—

Josh: I'm in the early days of exploring the understanding of thought And yeah, I'm no guru on this at all, but that is the whole idea of being the witness or the observer. Um, I think, uh, Andy Puddicombe, who is the creator of Headspace, which is a really, um, you know, uh, well-used app, um, describes those thoughts as clouds and that our state of contentment is blue sky. That sort of joy. Like, if joy is everlasting and happiness is fleeting, joy is blue sky and the clouds are just thoughts. And if we allow them just to go past, notice them, see them, and just allow them to go past, they will go past and, and we will go back to the blue sky. But often what we do is we turn a white cloud into a grey cloud into a giant storm, and then the whole sky is filled with storms, and we've actually created that.

Tommy: Yeah.

Josh: It wasn't actually anyone who's put that on us. It's not an external, it's an internal. And what we lack doing often is actually taking responsibility for that. And it's confronting.

Tommy: I think it's confronting to know that it's like, oh, this situation isn't about this person or that person, and this storey isn't only the reality that you've created, but you can choose.

Josh: Yeah, it's me.

Tommy: Yeah.

Josh: Um, and that requires you to be, um, yeah, a bit more vulnerable, a lot more vulnerable, and especially in Australian society, especially with men. I think we still have mega, mega issues with what it is to be a vulnerable man. I think we're very— we still have that football mentality of, oh yeah, just 24 hours, she'll be right.

Tommy: 50 sports. Yeah, okay.

Josh: Um, fuck Foxtel. Um, yeah, well, like that, it's just like a toxic masculinity thing that men aren't allowed to be in touch with that stuff and But also that's the same toxic masculinity that is a part of a one-punch culture. Yeah, it hurts us.

Tommy: I think that the interesting thing with talking about that is it's not just affecting externally, it affects our fucking souls and what we're, you know, what we're doing.

Josh: Yeah, yeah, exactly. And affects the potential of you being the, uh, yeah, the greatest version of yourself.

Tommy: The concert that you're putting on, the tour. Yes. So it's around Australia, is it? What's the plan?

Josh: The plan is Sydney on June 8th at the Eternity Playhouse, which is in Sydney, obviously, and then up to Brizzy at QPAC on the 20th.

Tommy: Do you fly everywhere? I just, when I think of a tour, I just think of fucking Australia.

Josh: Australia's too fucking big. I heard a comedian yesterday just just like talk about how he was in, oh, you know, I went to New Zealand, it's like Queenstown, then I, I went to this other place, it was like the other end of the island. It's the same with Australia, it's like if you go to Melbourne, you're not at the Gold Coast. Yeah, it's fucking ages.

Josh: It's ages away. Yeah. And I look, if I was doing like Shep and then Wodonga and then Gundagai or like something like that, then I would be doing all the— I'm doing the regional tour. Yeah, yeah, I'm gonna say that Do you go—

Tommy: because I heard as well that like if you're part of, is it like APRA, you get like Virgin? We can get that baggage.

Josh: We can sign up for that.

Tommy: Really?

Josh: As filmmakers, you can sign up for APRA.

Tommy: Yeah.

Josh: I haven't even—

Tommy: so Virgin Australia, they like, you always see the like artists and stuff in the priority line. And I've heard from musos that if you're part of, I think it's APRA, you can basically get priority and you get more bags and stuff.

Josh: That's cool. Well, all our musicians are local in each city. Okay, great. Except for my music director who's also piano, a guy called Jack Earl who's the bomb. So yeah, we go from Brissy, then we go down to Melbourne on the 22nd. So Melbourne's got 2 shows, the rest have 1.

Josh: And what's the biggest venue?

Josh: The Melbourne one's Alex Theatre is about 500.

Tommy: Yeah.

Josh: Which is small fry compared to 60,000.

Josh: Yeah. And no fireworks.

Josh: And no, definitely not. I'm really underwhelmed with this.

Josh: Yeah, this is like, don't even come, just watch one YouTube clip.

Tommy: This is like, but this is a development for you in regards to, is this like the first one that you've done solo?

Josh: Yeah, first solo tour. I mean, last year was the first album, so it's taking some tracks from that and then some tracks that I want to put onto a new one. Obviously the original we've talked about and some classics like Time to Say Goodbye and some duet duets, uh, with, uh, your favourite people from the Jewish community. Yeah, so that's just me heading from St. Kilda down to Balaclava and remembering you.

Tommy: Solid.

Josh: Yeah, Rabbi Rubenstein, who, uh, I know from the Turack Synagogue, who's always saying, let's do, uh, Nessun Dorma, but let's do it to the tune of Adon Olam. I know, because they all do that. Um, so no, sorry, Rabbi Rubenstein, not your gig this one.

Josh: Do you have a, um, like an opening act, or is it Is it, or is it just—

Josh: no, it's just, it's just, it's a 100-minute concert with a, with a little interval. And I think the best way to describe it is, uh, Bocelli meets Bublé.

Tommy: Cool.

Josh: So it's very off the cuff, like there's no dinner suit vibe. Um, I'm pretty sure I'll be barefoot. Really? Yeah, I always love to sing barefoot around the house. So it's, it's sort of the vibe is to try and just, just welcome you into you know, my home and sort of, you know, make that classical sound accessible to everyone. It's classical music but it's not a classical show.

Tommy: Yeah.

Josh: You're not going to the opera here.

Tommy: I like that. I like the mixing and the matching of that sort of stuff.

Josh: Yeah. And I mean, there'll be a rock rug on the stage because a lot of the repertoire is pop and rock songs. Yeah.

Tommy: What's a rock rug? You know, is that like drums, you know, like Do they use it to—

Josh: Yeah, yeah. But you know that like Persian rug that you always see in a rock concert or in a rock studio? Yeah, that sort of vibe. Amazing.

Tommy: If you still need the Persian rug, I know a guy who is actually legitimately going out of business. I know that you hear the rug stuff a lot. Yeah, sale. He's got about $17,000 that he owes to like an Indian supplier, but they are Persian rugs. They're all— Handmade.

Josh: If you need a Persian rug.

Josh: Yeah, okay.

Josh: The annoying thing is actually transporting that.

Josh: Yeah, I think we've got all the stock. Like the musicians, we might pick up rugs locally. That's a good idea.

Josh: Yeah, I believe we can probably rent a rug. Rent a rug.

Tommy: Rent a rug's a great idea.

Josh: Or just have a mate who's got a rug. But if he wants to sponsor the tour, then—

Tommy: I think he's mainly relying on cash at the moment. Okay, but the your audience, how do you describe your audience?

Josh: Middle-aged women.

Josh: There are some middle-aged women. There's, uh, some really young people too. A lot of the feedback from the album was from people in their 30s, late 20s and 30s, who, um, for whatever reason don't connect fully with like the real classical classical music. They won't go and see Turandot or Tosca or Madame Butterfly, but they want to connect with it, but they needed an avenue in.

Tommy: And so it's like a gateway drug. It's like me listening to Iris or whatever amongst all my other stuff. It's like it fits. The funny thing is when you hear it, it sort of fits in in some way to pop music as well.

Josh: So really I'm like a bong and opera is like smack.

Tommy: Yeah, absolutely.

Josh: So yeah, I mean, and they, and you know, everyone wants to do, wants to do a billy from time to time.

Tommy: So a bong's not going to ruin your life.

Josh: It's not going to, it's actually going to kill your life.

Tommy: Yeah, absolutely. And you definitely need a Persian rug if you're going to do a bong as well.

Josh: Yeah, perfect setting for it.

Tommy: Yeah, it's got that vibe.

Josh: Yeah, so I mean, that, that's what the feedback was. It was, it was a lot of people in their, in their 30s actually, um, saying that they're like exactly what you're saying. It didn't feel like opera, but I felt like I got a bit of Yeah, that, um, so that— and that's exactly what I feel like I am. Like, like you said, I'm not like your sort of standard opera, yeah, guy. Um, I just happen to love singing like that. Um, but I, you know, bang it out to Informer by Snow or Shoop by Salt-N-Pepa.

Josh: Are you good singing the other way, do you think?

Josh: Like singing—

Josh: I don't know, singing how Charlotte things. I guess that's— so it's genre singing.

Josh: So like, like indie pop stuff?

Josh: Yeah, so if you were to sing indie pop, so you drop— there's no accent, there's no Italian, there's no, uh, you're not doing a classical style, man trapped in a ripped guy's body. Operatic. Operatic.

Josh: I think I can do that. Like, when you've got classical training, you can, uh, you know what you're doing with your voice. Like, technically, I'm— yeah, I'm quite good at knowing how to manipulate sounds and and all of that, but I just don't— I think if I spent my time, you know, wanting to do, um, Never Made It as a Wise Man, Couldn't Cut It as a Poor Man Stealing— isn't that Nickelback? Never made it as a wise man. Yeah, uh, or not a good song, or do I know about Green Day? I don't like Green Day. No, I don't like Green Day either.

Tommy: Did you know that the the lead singer of Green Day wished that Steve Jobs would die of cancer. He said that on stage, and it was all because of iTunes and how much they got paid from iTunes. It's a bit of a—

Josh: that's not a nice thing to say.

Tommy: So I got off Green Day for that, for that reason alone. I liked American Idiot.

Josh: I've chatted to people about this. I think what he did was watch episodes of The Simpsons take an impersonation of Krusty the Clown and then move it into a vocal style because there's not much difference between— it's the same thing.

Josh: Are these people putting on—

Josh: well, I reckon a lot of artists did it after— is it Dave Grohl?

Josh: Oh yeah, yeah.

Tommy: Was he Foo Fighters?

Josh: Foo Fighters? Oh no, no, who's Kill Jam?

Tommy: I don't know anyone. You stretch my resources.

Josh: Roto, watch on the clock, it's 4. That thing became— everyone had to do it. Even Celine Dion was doing it for a while. Um, that was a style.

Tommy: You should be able to tell the lyrics. Like, that was, that was a style for a long time, which is like, if you understand what they're saying, they're not doing a good job of singing.

Josh: Yeah, I just like— I wasn't into that, any of those styles of singing. Yeah, I didn't want to pursue that, but I think if I did go down that track, you go It's once again what I was talking about, like if you go hard work at Nickelback style, you can be the next Nickelcrap.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: What's the worst piece of advice you've heard from someone around career stuff?

Josh: Oh, I did get an advice from a singing teacher once, very, very early on when I was struggling to hit the notes because I was technically not proficient, which was do whatever you can 'Just get it out.' Just get it out. Yeah, not ideal. Yeah, that's one way to get nodules. Yeah.

Josh: Do you think they saw you in front of the Sydney Opera House and thought, 'I fucking told him everything he knows.' Just before the silence, just before you did the big note, 'Just get it out.' Just get it out.

Josh: Yeah, there was, yeah. So that's probably not great advice.

Josh: What about advice in respects to career and just not sort of specific to your voice but to musical theatre as a career for you or anything that sort of—

Josh: People always say, you know, they're always going to my least favourite question where you're like, you know, you meet one of your parents' friends at a coffee shop or whatever, they always touch you on your wrist. It always begins with a wrist touch.

Josh: Quick wrist.

Tommy: It's so you can't, it's so you can't move, so you can't escape.

Josh: 'And what are you up to?' Yeah. And then you go, 'Oh,' I like, in my head, I go, 'Do I want to go down the spiel?' No, I can't be fucking going down the spiel. I do the, 'Oh, not much at the moment, just, you know, working on some things that'll come to the fore soon.' 'It must be really tough.' It's a very sympathetic— and it's patronising and sympathetic at the same time.

Tommy: Do you just grab them by the elbow and just say, "It must be tough being you, lady," and walk off?

Josh: Yeah, well, I either give them the sort of whatever that mouth is nod.

Tommy: Just like the struggling art— like, I think there is something in the struggling artist which sometimes it's easier just to play into that and people think that that's the life, you know, just being like, "Oh yeah, yeah, stuff's—

Josh: it's always hard finding work, but you know." If you are feeling that, then I think it's a problem. I felt a bit of that at a family event of just what we're doing and us understanding it and knowing the direction, the vision. And it's— maybe it's a piece in my communication, or I've entered into that, yeah, we're just doing this, like very broad. And then their concern is, I don't understand what they're doing or the risk they're taking. So that's what they end up projecting.

Tommy: So, but I don't know if it is But if it's like, if we can't get caught— like, the thing is that we, we have a North Star, we know where we're sort of headed, but we don't know the steps necessarily. So how can we expect those people around us to have any concept of those steps? And so part of it is understanding that we know that there's going to be steps there. We don't necessarily know the order, we don't know what it looks like, but we know they're there. And so I guess that's part of it, is it's like understanding what's like— if we don't we're in it every day and we have just enough clarity to move forward. They've definitely got no fucking idea.

Josh: Yeah, but what you want from them, I guess, is like to approach you judgment-free. And what you see on their faces is riddled with excessive judgment.

Tommy: Is it based on their inability to live the life that they want? Like, are they— that's what I always struggle down to.

Josh: And sometimes I say, well, um, no, not much at the moment, but, um 'You know, couldn't have it any other way. I'm living my passion.' Yeah.

Tommy: Um, and because it's almost them projecting their thing, which is like, 'You know what, I'm at a cafe, like, I would have loved to take up poetry or painting or whatever, but I'm doing X, Y, and Z.' I mean, and so you create—

Josh: I hope it's on this deep level that they're not— that's what is the surface thought, that's the go-to based on their life experience. But I don't know how that's a narrative thing.

Tommy: Yeah, that is—

Josh: that's what I'm saying. I don't know how much it is, and maybe it's just some confusion in what you were up to. I mean, what would be the way to do it? I'm killing it. I'm killing it.

Tommy: No, but do we— but I don't think that you need to necessarily— like, you don't owe them anything, right? Like, and so the part of it is, it's like, I think— and this is the hard bit of the balance of we create our own narratives. I think we did a fucking great job of creating the narrative of what the lady at the cafe was thinking. Yeah.

Josh: Oh God, but she did do a strong and rich wrist touch. Yeah, and that always has a backstory.

Tommy: The thing is we're all just triggering every— like, we're all triggering each other for different things, right? And so part of it is it's like, even though it's our narrative and all that sort of thing, there is a bit of that which is like, if we were to take that in, if we were to take everyone as face value, it's like, oh, there's a lot of doubt. Like, uh, she's got a lot of doubt for me, or that thing, she doesn't seem very confident. Where it's like, also the reality is like, she hasn't done a tour, she hasn't done all this stuff, she hasn't done— and so how would she— it's not even from an area of being malicious. She just doesn't understand.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: Um, which is fucking— but it's hard to work out because it's like, in that moment when you hear someone who's saying something that is naive, you want to fucking correct them and sort of put them in their place and say, hey, this is actually what it is.

Josh: But well, I sometimes I want to say that because it's truth. Um, look, if I'm working in a long-term gig, that doesn't necessarily mean I'm happier than when I'm in creative mode for something that I'm creating myself. Yeah. And like, I just can't, you know, we don't need to go into that conversation at a cafe with a wrist touch. But, but it's, it's true. Like the, the, I think the life of startups, self-creators is, is complex.

Tommy: Yeah.

Josh: And those who run in a 9-to-5 system who've always done that and who've never seen the other side, they sometimes— it's just really hard to understand what, what that is and where— what our muse is, what our joy is. Like, they just can't, can't get it because they haven't experienced it.

Josh: You've got— there's a lot of noise around us.

Tommy: Yeah.

Josh: And I think if you would— if you were to look back at you 10 years ago, like, if you listen to all that noise, you wouldn't actually make the first step.

Josh: And I did.

Josh: You did listen to it?

Josh: Oh yeah, I did a lot. Um, and it's, it's only been in the last sort of chapter of my life where I go, I know exactly what I want to do. I want to— I know how I want to do it. Whether or not, um, I'm, I'm good enough at the moments that count, um, is, um, is up to me to a degree. Or whether or not I'm liked in the moments that count is maybe not up to me to a degree. But at least I have a really good understanding of my path that I want to live out. It's not based on what's gonna please other people or what other people want me to live out.

Tommy: Absolutely. Mate, thanks for coming on the show. Wrist touch. We'll have to do the old wrist touch. We'll have to have you. So when are you in Melbourne specifically?

Josh: 22nd of June.

Tommy: So how long does that go? Is that whole tour, how long is that whole tour period?

Josh: Couple of weeks. So it's, it's, it's over quick, isn't it? I know 4 shows, hopefully, Brisbane and Sydney sell well and we get to put on another show, but Melbourne definitely has 2 shows. So a little plug, head to joshpitterman.com and you can get tickets.

Tommy: Do you have to— do a lot of people spell your name wrong?

Josh: Always a double T. Yeah, Pitterman. Yeah, I get it.

Tommy: You have to come in, we're moving into our new office next week, so you have to come and do a cover.

Josh: So many walls.

Tommy: Oh fuck, we'd love—

Josh: we should definitely do a funny cover, Italian version Yeah, absolutely.

Josh: Yeah, I'm gonna do Nickelback.

Tommy: Okay, it's a daily talk show. Josh Pittman, thanks for coming on the show. We'll see you tomorrow, guys. See you guys.