Improv with Dr. Jason Fox

Josh: The Daily Talk Show, episode 292, with Jason Fox.

Tommy: Dr. Jason Fox, how are you, mate?

Dr.: Good, mate, how are you?

Tommy: Yeah, good. Welcome back.

Josh: Thanks.

Tommy: Uh, it's been a while since you were last on, but you had your better half. Yeah, unless you think you're the better half out of that duo.

Dr.: No, no, definitely the better half. Yeah, yeah. And that was like one of your early videos, the video one.

Josh: Yeah, exactly.

Dr.: This week you had the hot day, and then a week later Kim was on the days that, yeah, the temperature gets crazy.

Tommy: And so Kim Lam is— you guys are married? I mean, it just throws me off that her full name's Kim Lam and your name's Jason Fox.

Dr.: Her full name is a lot longer. Is it a Vietnamese thing? I can't pronounce it properly, but come on. No, no, because the Vietnamese language has these odd phonetics, and so if you have any hint of uncertainty, yeah, if you end on an upward note like a question mark, um, it screws the whole meaning. So I haven't quite—

Tommy: you can't nail it. I'll never be able to nail it. Kim was on episode 207— 70. I just asked these guys to work it out. He's trying to let me— 273. Yeah. And you were episode 1, uh, was it 99? Was it just before Hamish Blake or after?

Josh: Maybe it was 101 or something. 101.

Tommy: Yeah. So, and now you're back, 292.

Josh: And so the doctor in Dr. Jason Fox, that's because you've got a doctorate in something? Is that how it works? In philosophy? Okay, great. Uh, Mr. 97, we've been talking about this, um, uh, pre-show. Yeah, he had a date.

Dr.: Yes.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: And so you've sort of landed on an episode where we're in the thick of it. People have probably just tuned in as much as they want to hear you, and I think they should want to hear you. This is No, actually what's more weird is your friends that have no idea who Mr. 97 is landing on this episode because they're in for a ride too. Because last night Mr. 97 went on his very first date. Like, he's 19, never been on a date. This was his very first one and we hooked it up. Well, we did.

Dr.: Shameless girls catalysed it.

Josh: Yeah, but I do like that. It's just like that was the end of that sentence.

Tommy: Hooked it up.

Josh: And we did it. It was us. But so, but we thought you are the most qualified person to— what's psychoanalyst? Like, to psychoanalyze? Is that something you can do?

Tommy: It's something you do, Josh.

Dr.: I don't think it's something that's ever appreciated, but, uh, many amateurs attempt it.

Josh: Okay, great. I love a good amateur psychoanalyze.

Tommy: No, I think it's good. So I will just say a few observations about Mr. 97 yesterday was that he dropped the ball Oh, and I say that in a loving way. It wasn't just him dropping the ball on a normal day. It was a day that his first date was about to happen. He left the camera out. He didn't lock the cabinet that where we keep the camera. He left the lights on.

Josh: All the gear was left on. He was freaking out because he was only a few hours away from his first date. So we thought this could be a good opportunity. We had the debrief in regards to the date.

Mason: Yeah.

Josh: And, uh, we thought that you were in a great position to have a good 5-minute chat with Mr. 97, to have a bit of an under— I don't know if you could use some of your, um, what's the different side— just very quickly, this slight side note, different schools of psychology. When people say Freudian, Freudian, if it's a Freudian slip, yes. Why is it a Freudian slip?

Mason: My—

Dr.: I haven't gone in deep into Freud, but like my understanding is that you make some sort of accidental sexual innuendo, um, that relates to your relationship with your parents or some sort of like historical thing.

Josh: Really? Yeah, I feel like I use it all in the wrong way.

Dr.: I might have just quoted that in the wrong way.

Josh: No, but I think— okay, that's interesting. And so there's different types of psycho— so that's one school.

Tommy: Yes, young, deep, like India past.

Dr.: Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly.

Tommy: Yeah, etiological they call that, which we're only going to give you 5 minutes with this tonight, so we probably can't go and do his part.

Josh: Yeah, so maybe— so Freud's off the table. What, what are the other forms of sort of ways that we can look at the way that we think?

Dr.: Schools of thoughts, like there's, uh, Adlerian psychology, which is more, uh, teleological. So that means more about what were your intentions or goals or objectives, uh, and how that shaped things. Uh, and, um, oh gosh, we'll get into philosophy, narrative, and all sorts of things. I think that the boundaries between different domains of thought are fairly nebulous, so We'll just have a dance for 5 minutes. Okay, see what emerges.

Josh: And so if I— just quickly on the psychology thing— if I'm trying to find a psychologist, do I— like, I know that when Bree was finding one, she definitely wasn't thinking about, is this person a Freud, is it Adlerian, or whatever it's called.

Tommy: The thought usually is, can I get subsidised for this expensive one-on-one session?

Dr.: I think it's increasingly more important in this modern world as we experience more more and more alienation and the fragmentation of our own sense of personality and self through social media and all the other distractions. So what to look for in a psychologist? Yeah, I don't know, just, uh, can you— do you feel comfortable? Can you hang out with them? Can you just open up in a natural way without them seeming to rely on some dated dogma?

Josh: So would— so do most psychologists say, 'I am of this school'?

Dr.: Not so much. Um, I, I wouldn't— I would— I'd be a warning bell if they said that. I think there would be more A good psychologist would be listening to you, be really curious, and just be offering new perspectives or ways of seeing things.

Josh: And so if I ask that question of a psychologist, like, I'm just trying to think of like, if there's a different— if you've got a car and there's different ways to service the engine, I might want to say I actually only want them to do it this certain way. Is that me being a control freak to say, hey, I need to know exactly what sort of technique you're going to use?

Tommy: It's okay to say yes.

Dr.: Um, well, yeah, possibly. I mean, it would be going into it with a whole fixed notion of what you're— what, what you want the method to be. Um, I mean, let's just like, little caveat, my background's in philosophy rather than psychology. Yeah, but, uh, I think just a general looseness to this, teasing it out, seeing what works, seeing what seems to, seems to work, that's probably the best approach.

Tommy: Okay, what I'm drawing the, um, the connection between is finding a psychologist and Mr. 97 going dating— very similar things.

Josh: Yeah, exactly.

Tommy: You're going to test it out, you're going to build rapport, you're going to see how you, you know, interact.

Josh: Yeah, yeah.

Tommy: And so, and so one just costs money, the other doesn't.

Josh: Well, I think philosophy is a good place to like—

Dr.: I think looking at this whole dating thing from a philosophical lens is nothing more practical.

Tommy: Yeah, yeah. And so you're a thinker, and Mr. 97 is a thinker, so I think maybe you could untap some of that.

Dr.: Yeah, yeah.

Tommy: So there's inner thinking that's going on.

Dr.: Rich and confusing.

Josh: Did you have— in, um, WA, did you have like interscores?

Tommy: Or anything?

Josh: Did you do okay?

Dr.: Uh, yeah, I did okay.

Josh: Okay, because we did— Tommy and I both weren't great.

Tommy: And oh, I don't have one.

Dr.: Yeah, right.

Josh: I was gonna throw you under the bus completely.

Tommy: We've actually split up Josh's between us. We've got 20 each.

Josh: Yeah, exactly. It's horrendous. Um, no, but it's so interesting when you are growing up how much importance is put on that number.

Dr.: How much emphasis parents seem to put on that. Yeah, yeah, it's an odd psyche and dynamic nowadays, but I don't know how relevant it is compared to what it used to be.

Tommy: What did you get?

Dr.: 88 was mine.

Tommy: That's right, let's bring in the most intelligent one in the room on paper. He doesn't have a degree, you do, you're a doctor.

Josh: But it's WA, so the thing is the WA standards versus Victorian, I don't know, like from a, I feel like WA might look down upon Victoria. Yeah, I was trying to say save face for Dr. Jason Foss.

Tommy: All right, so, um, we're going to give you 5 minutes to chat to Mr. 97. Uh, Jason, you jump into my seat. Mr. 97 is going to come in.

Dr.: We're actually—

Tommy: go on, this is the easiest podcast.

Josh: This is great.

Dr.: This is the 97.

Mason: Hey, going—

Dr.: yeah, good, mate. Wow, so this is exciting. Thanks for stepping into—

Tommy: yeah, yeah.

Dr.: Um, so first date, uh, what I'm so curious about is What's the— thank you. I want to get a sense of like, how were you physiologically before it happened?

Mason: Yeah.

Dr.: And what were you imagining would play out, or what you were hoping for?

Mason: Yeah, sure. I think going into it, I was a little, a little bit nervous about it. I think leading—

Dr.: where did you experience the nervousness? How did you know you were nervous?

Mason: Uh, heart rate. Definitely the heart rate. Yeah, the, uh, the heart was pounding a little bit, but it was I think it was actually all right because I got there and I was, I was more excited than nervous, which was, which is great. So I sort of like reframed it, which was cool.

Dr.: Yeah, and that's a great technique anyway for everyone, like reframing nerves into excitement or anticipation. So like, what were the— like, did you, did you feel that you had a narrator or were you editing yourself, or did you feel quite in the moment when you're there?

Mason: Nah, the, the, the sort of the night that it was, it was just like relaxing and, and chill. So it was Yeah, nothing was forced. It was just sort of— I could just go with the flow and be myself.

Dr.: Yeah, really?

Mason: Yes. Yeah, it's cool.

Dr.: What do you think made it relaxing?

Mason: Um, just, just it being just like a preparation or— nah, nah, just it being like a whole open environment. Just, I mean, and also having your dog with you.

Dr.: Oh yeah, yeah, that's right, because I have animals in like, uh, retirement villages and aged care. Yeah, yeah, because apparently when you pat them, it calms people down. No, you brought your own?

Mason: Yeah, I brought my pup, but it was, um, not just doing normal things like going out, picking up food, that sort of thing, going shopping at the supermarket.

Dr.: So, oh, okay, so she started off at the supermarket.

Mason: Yeah, okay.

Dr.: Um, and so while you're at the supermarket for your first date, I mean, yeah, we picked up some food for dinner. Oh, right, okay. Yeah, okay.

Mason: Yeah.

Dr.: Uh, and did you have in your mind like little ploys like, um, I'm going to pick the organic stuff and I'm going to show how progressive I am?

Mason: Nah, nah, I sort of just went with the flow. Didn't— I didn't think— I didn't want to overthink anything, so I just sort of, yeah, went with it.

Dr.: Yeah, just putting in anything in there. Yeah, like Tim Tams and stuff.

Mason: Yeah, no, it was, it was all healthy stuff.

Josh: All right, what were you cooking?

Mason: Uh, we were gonna do Mexican, but we just made, um, wraps with beans and stuff.

Dr.: Oh, why, why did you just— when you say just made—

Mason: uh, yeah, well, it was just It was just a bit easier, yeah.

Josh: Maybe it's good pointing out— 2, 2, 2, there we go. Uh, Mr. 97, is it worth pointing out the fact that you didn't ask the dietary requirements beforehand? That's not worth it. She may have been vegetarian, she may have been vegetarian.

Dr.: Let's go back to the philosophy of this. Yeah, yeah, all right, so, so like what have you made this mean? Like this is a, this is a funny thing. First, like in Western society, this is like a milestone from that. Yeah, masculine lens, which I think there are some healthy components to, but we don't want to dial this up too much and become toxic masculinity. So the next, like, like reflecting on this, like, how do you feel? What, like, what's changed in you?

Mason: Um, I've probably developed more confidence from it. Yeah, just, just doing something that I've never done before and something that put me in lots of discomfort is just pushed my boundaries heaps.

Dr.: So yeah, right, okay. So what— so when you say lots, like, what— so more confidence, what would it mean? How might you approach things differently in the future?

Mason: Um, probably, probably not worry about it as much. Just, just sort of go in with, with excitement instead of— yeah, reframe that as excitement.

Dr.: Most worried about, uh, conversation.

Mason: Yeah, it was great though. It was— yeah, she was lovely. So Yeah, what about conversation? Fine, uh, just not, not making it too awkward.

Dr.: How would you make it awkward?

Mason: Not having enough to talk about. I don't know.

Tommy: All right.

Mason: Yeah, something like that. Yeah, yeah.

Dr.: But nowadays, got it, got it covered.

Mason: Yeah.

Dr.: Okay, so what's next then?

Mason: What's next? I don't know, maybe, maybe another catch-up. I don't know.

Dr.: Okay. And are you like, are you doing the whole psychology of like who texts next and like You don't want to— I don't want to seem too enthusiastic immediately after, but yeah, let's go all cold.

Mason: And yeah, I— that's, that's something that I'm cautious of, not overthinking too much. Yeah, I don't want to get caught in—

Dr.: so this is fascinating, like, for me, because I'm an overthinker.

Tommy: Yeah, yeah.

Dr.: You're, you're like deliberately consciously trying to overthink this. Yeah. Do you like— if you catch yourself, do you like catch yourself thinking about it and then just saying okay?

Mason: Yeah, yeah, I sort of— yeah, it'll pop into my head or something will come up that I said or something, and I sort of just quell the idea. Like, it's—

Dr.: yeah, okay, you quell the idea. Hmm, this is fascinating for me. Like, that seems to have a certain level of self-awareness and discipline to not kind of go into those spirals.

Mason: Yeah, yeah.

Dr.: So, but then the risk is not overthinking about it. Isn't there a risk that you might be too chill? Like, too—

Mason: like, yeah, yeah, I think— yeah, I, I— yeah, there is that risk, but I, I feel like I've, I've got enough, uh, covenants to be okay in, yeah, in doing that. So something not too worried.

Dr.: What's happening when you reflect back on yesterday that you're kind of quietly quite chuffed about in yourself? Like that you noticed, like, I thought that I might blah, but then this happened and I'm really happy with how that—

Mason: yeah, oh, probably, yeah, probably just going back to the whole conversation thing. It was, it just ended up just, I, yeah, we just ended up having, having a really nice chat. So yeah, it was cool.

Dr.: Okay, yeah, can I just ask quickly? Sorry guys, yeah, what qualifies as a nice chat? Like, how— I want to kind of like— yeah, yeah, let's treat this like a whiskey tasting, right? You know, like, let's, let's say, how— what is a nice chat?

Mason: Yeah, probably just one that's, that's easy, you can just be yourself in, that's got, got a bit of banter that's funny.

Dr.: Okay, a few jokes. What does it mean for you when you're being yourself?

Mason: Um, yes, giving— uh, there's Like making jokes, giving the other person shit, just talking, talking a bit of banter.

Josh: Yeah, cool.

Dr.: Um, cool. And, uh, this seems that you seem so chill, right?

Josh: This is—

Dr.: I can't believe this is a guy who's just been on his first date.

Josh: Um, 19 as well. Yeah, like a lot of wisdom.

Dr.: I expected like the— or like odd storeys or fireworks. I think it seems pretty chill and cool. Like, are you sure nothing, nothing happened?

Josh: Like what?

Dr.: Was the dog with you the whole time?

Mason: Yeah, Abby. Abby's my dog's name. Yeah, she was stressing out a little bit.

Dr.: She was, uh, right, she was—

Mason: Yeah, yeah, she—

Dr.: no, she was going from, uh, she must have known what a big deal this was. Yeah, yeah, yeah, she was—

Mason: she wasn't the best wingman, but it's all right.

Josh: And so 90Sevs, just very quickly, I mean, what's the, uh, the shameless audience— I feel like we owe it to them. You've got a bunch of DMs.

Mason: Yeah.

Josh: Future dates for other people, keeping it all open. Yeah. What do you see as the next step with your dating life over the next month?

Mason: Um, yeah, definitely, definitely still open.

Josh: Open for business.

Dr.: Yeah.

Josh: Okay, great. And so you'll probably message— you haven't messaged Sharon yet?

Mason: No. Okay, I will do.

Josh: Okay, so you gotta probably message Sharon because it's been, I think, 12 hours is a good period of time. And then, uh, from there, tomorrow, would it be fair to say that you could potentially have another date lined up, or at least in the works, for someone else?

Mason: Yeah, potentially. Okay, great.

Dr.: Wow, so smooth.

Josh: The chill thing. Yeah. And how— what was your first— do you remember what your first date was?

Dr.: Oh Jesus, I would have had like so many narratives. Like, I would have imagined all these different scenarios of how things could have been, and it would have been— back at 19, I would have been like hero's journeying it, like looking for opportunities to do something like significant or, um, that, that kind of like real signifiers of my character, uh, and totally overthinking it. And then in the moment, kicking myself for like shit not working out as I thought it would, and then being totally disconnected from the moment, not really present, not experiencing flow and stuff like that. It seems like you've bypassed all that awkwardness and you've landed on a space which is quite natural.

Tommy: It's so interesting. Look, Mr. 97, since I've known him, seeing how I perceive him and how he can might perceive himself, it's so fascinating. The thinking about that awkwardness and thinking about— it's so out of the moment to be thinking about the moment, because once it's like if you're a painter and you're just flowing, it's like you're just connecting to it, or it's like It is a— it's a challenge. Why do we overthink? What is—

Dr.: oh well, it's funny because I grew up without social media, but I think in this day and age with social media, for those that are addicted to it or in the system, there's so much preening involved. There's so much like curating of what facets of yourself you put forth, which requires you to think about how do I want to perceive. And then puts you in this kind of whole web of perception management where you realise that people are going to be forming impressions of who you are based upon the snippets of what they see. And so therefore you'll start thinking, okay, well, I best show these snippets so that they think highly of me and stuff like that. To kind of bypass all that noise and get back to this space where you can just be a little bit more real, a bit more human, I think is remarkable. I think it's wonderful.

Josh: How do you try and— I guess what I try and avoid is being cool, being okay with being cool but also not being emotionally unavailable. So saying like, would there be any feedback to Mr. 97 that potentially there's a risk in— it's okay if things don't work out?

Tommy: I—

Dr.: yeah, I think you're— there's a really astute observation, um, and I would say that it's like Mr. 97 could afford to possibly show the— I mean, it's pretty vulnerable coming up and like doing this whole experiment.

Mason: This is great.

Dr.: This is like Married at First Sight where they do the experts coming in.

Josh: 'But just go hard, 'cause they do.' Yeah, yeah.

Tommy: I feel like you've got more credentials than they do.

Dr.: I think there's something quite charming where like we get to air out our insecurities and we get to allow like others to see a glimpse into their own, our own inner insecure world. 'Cause it just reminds us, 'Oh, they're just as insecure as I am,' and stuff. And it helps to bridge connections. So, you know, coolness as a psychological trait, you know, you deconstruct James Bond and the coolness there. It comes down to the physiology, minimal movement, particularly minimal head movement, whereas someone who's really affectionate—

Josh: He'd be terrible on our show. He'd be eyeballing the camera the whole time.

Dr.: Yeah, staring it down. And that kind of emotional kind of stoicness or stoniness, which I don't think is cool in this day and age.

Josh: Yeah, and I think that the other thing too, to give Mr. 97 so much credit, His biggest concern this morning was, I don't want to talk too many details about the date because I really respect the girl, I like the person I went on the date with and I don't want it to be, you know, he's emotionally available about his story, but I also think there's a self-awareness of knowing it's like, actually this isn't just my story, this is also Sharon's story.

Tommy: If there's one way to grow confidence, it's exactly what he's doing, opening up about his experience and his feeling.

Dr.: Yeah, totally.

Tommy: Like being vulnerable, that's commendable. Like I look at, that was one of the most awkward interviews I've seen.

Dr.: I know, I know.

Tommy: For no other reason than you're talking to a kid who's just gone on his first date.

Dr.: Well, no, other reasons too. No, no, no, seriously.

Tommy: But it's, him doing this is not easy.

Dr.: No, no.

Tommy: Not easy for anybody.

Dr.: I think, you know, I think what we're seeing here is a nascent form of neo-masculinism. Uh, and this is like, there's this kind of new brand of masculinity where you can be, you can be manly without there being that kind of toxic overtones where it gets taken out of hand. There's this kind of new reforging of what it means. And I love how Mr. 97's been such a gentleman about it, and there's been some respectful boundaries but also a willingness to open up and play.

Josh: What does the— when you think about toxic, I can't even say the, the whole phrase toxic masculinity, uh, where within that whole conversation there's a lot of people that have these trigger words where they'll shut off and it doesn't end up becoming productive. Is— are there other phrases or, or ways of describing these things that can actually get more to the people who have these traits?

Dr.: I tend to academicize this, um I mean, I think a good thing to remember is that anything can be toxic in high enough doses, right? So even water, yeah, if you drink enough of it, you can die. Um, so it's that, like, how much of a dose of a particular thing gets too much where it actually starts to become unhealthy. So there's this kind of macho bravado, there's the, the kind of men catching up and having beers and stuff, but if that then turns into something that's exclusive, if that then turns into something that emphasises the differences between men and women too much, if that becomes too wrapped up in the storey of what masculinity is, uh, and people start seeing too much specialist specialness in identifying as manly and masculine and stuff like that, I think it can then lead to, uh, alienation for others, discomfort, uh, artificial, uh, power asymmetries. You know, it's, uh, I don't know. It's a long storey short, I don't know.

Josh: Well, how do we, how do we, as two blokes doing a podcast How do we avoid the toxic bit?

Dr.: So what I reckon you guys do really, really well is you've got this combination, this both/and, of being totally yourselves, saying things as you would, and also maintaining open curiosity and the willingness to learn and to be like, uh, to, to accept that, you know, we look back on our past selves and sometimes we say shit that, um, the current selves wouldn't say now, knowing what we know now. Uh, which, uh, which I think you guys are demonstrating this ability to have a vivid and live what academics would call a protosynthesis. So by that, you know what a prototype is, like a working model. Um, it's just not— it's not finished, it's just like a rough type. And a synthesis is like where you synthesise all these different strands. So what you guys are doing is synthesising all the experience, all the conversations you've had, all the knowledge you've gained into this kind of prototype, which is ongoingly a prototype. And, you know, I think that your willingness to be yourselves and to be open to changing and involving yourselves is—

Tommy: I like that. I just imagining just this new human reforming within what we're doing. Talking out loud and, and talking through your thoughts has been the thing that has, I feel, developed me most rapidly in the last year and a bit.

Dr.: Yeah, yeah. And, you know, the other thing that I think you guys have done really well here there's this thing, a book, um, by Nancy Klein, I think it is, um, called Thinking Environments. And one of the principles of a thinking environment is that you have permission, almost this inherent permission to think in draft. So you have the ability to share your draught thoughts. These aren't your final positions.

Mason: These—

Dr.: this isn't your stance.

Josh: I hope not.

Dr.: It's constant draught thoughts. And I think that in this day and age, people are so scared to share their draught thinking because you don't know if it's going to be put viral on, on the internet and then used against you, or you use as a point to defame you, or taken out of context. And so, but I think you guys are demonstrating this kind of vulnerability and willingness to put yourselves out there in draught form, which is super special.

Tommy: Well, you've got someone like Joe Rogan or someone like Sam Harris. Sam Harris is an academic, and he said on Joe's podcast I can't seem stupid because my brand is the complete opposite. Like, I'm researched, I'm, you know, educated. How do you find that with your brand being, you know, uh, you're an academic, you've written books? Yeah, you— I don't know, can you delve into our world?

Dr.: Or there is a funny psyche going on for me personally. I've got the Dr. Jason Fox brand character. You guys are speaking to Jason Fox at the moment. I make a distinction because in the writing, the Dr. Jason Fox is quite wizardly, and sometimes when I appear on stage, I kind of— I bring a certain hubris and almost an aristocratic arrogance to, to the performance, which is coupled with this kind of humble, insecure version of Jason Fox. Um, what I would like to do is to have people I guess I think there's a lot of narrative, there's a lot of, there's a lot of smoke and mirrors when it comes to expertise nowadays. And what it is is often just people trying to make sense of the world. And if we emphasise more on our thinking, our reasoning, our rationalizing, how we come to certain perspectives and conclusions, and less about, oh, this person is an expert, they have all the answers, or this person's a source of authority, I think that will get into a a better space. And so I try to demonstrate the blend of authority and approachability at the same time.

Josh: I think that that's the thing that I even think about doing this type of content. There is the inclination to want to heighten guruism, or whatever you want to talk about it, to celebrate our guests that we have on. And so even thinking about last night, how to integrate, uh, what you're great at with Mr. 97, the things that were running through my head was like, we respect Jason, we said like it needs to be positioned in a way that is respectful of the fact that when you're coming on the show you're not a clown, even though you are a fool based on your, your word, word of the year, that, that we don't want to—

Tommy: I wish you gave that no context.

Josh: And then I guess, and then the other preface I is like when we have, uh, you know, female guests on the show, we want to make sure that— hang on, are we— if we had done the Mr. 97 thing on a specific show, are we, are we then undermining their expertise? So the, the doctor in Kim Lam should be at the same extent as the doctor of Jason Fox. And those things are so subconscious.

Dr.: Well, we—

Tommy: I just will say we would have got his dog in. She would have done a full interview.

Dr.: She is a veterinarian examination. Yeah, I was going to say that Doctoring Kim Lam is probably a much more useful form of doctoring. But yeah, I remember, 'cause in the trying to find the date for this, you said like, you can come along on Fat Friday if you want, but maybe that's not on brand. I was like, I'm not sure. Yeah, maybe Fat Friday's not so on brand, but then there's this whole, we get back into the whole grooming and the preening and then trying to present only a certain aspect of yourself. I think if we ditch the notion of, like a lot of people carry this really crude notion that there's the ideal self and the shadow self. And there's this false dichotomy between just two forms of self. If we see ourselves as multitudinous, um, as in there's multiple things that we're actually all individuals, so we, we can, we co-create each other.

Josh: Did you just say what is individualism? And what's the—

Dr.: is it individual? Means indivisible. So it kind of speaks to the fact that there is some essential self within us that you can't divide further. Uh, but the more you look at it analytically, the more you see that, um, the breakfast I had, the sleep that I had, sleep that you had, all the things that conversation you had. All of those things shape who we are in this present moment. And so we realise that we're not actually an individual self, we're actually co-creating each other in all of this.

Tommy: I think there's like— it humanises individuals when we see someone like Obama telling some, you know, talking to some serious point, but then you see him with his family laughing and just experiencing life as everyone does. And I think that's probably— you won Best Speaker in Australia, and I didn't see this speech that you gave. Was it one speech that you gave to win that competition?

Dr.: Recognition of a lot of stuff.

Josh: Do you do like a showreel sort of thing?

Dr.: Is that how they do it? It's something the industry kind of keeps an eye on, you know, who is—

Josh: oh, that's cool.

Dr.: Professional, consistently doing really good work.

Tommy: But from seeing you speak on videos, um, that's what you said about that sort of the insecure Jason and then the, you know, bravado, the, the broad performance, um, performance that probably— they counter each other in such a nice way, which is humanising you because it's like everyone is a bit fucked up.

Dr.: Yeah, totally.

Tommy: And everyone has fears. Tony Robbins, who's clapping his hands, he's insecure. Yeah, everyone is.

Dr.: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. There's, um, the beautiful thing where we actually see most truth lies in paradox, where it seems that there's two opposing truths, but looking at them together, you get these beautiful new things emerge. So sincerity and irony. So sometimes if we were pure sincerity, uh, that can be too much sometimes, uh, and people get awkward. Like, I remember I gave you an extreme compliment, uh, at, uh, every day.

Josh: Hashtag extreme compliment. That's it.

Tommy: I can't remember, but give it again.

Dr.: But no, you had Paul because you hadn't— like many of us do, you had this kind of inbuilt like defence mechanism, like humorous expression, like, oh, you kind of turned it into a joke or something like that. It's like, oh yeah, I do.

Tommy: I've been told that before. I've been told that I don't take compliments well.

Dr.: But it's also the extreme sincerity that I was doing it is like awkward, right? Yeah. So when irony and sincerity kind of blended in together, you have this kind of distance sensing, but you can still be kind of really authentic. And that's a really special thing that I think is emerging in this day.

Josh: How do people get to describing someone as insincere when there is sincerity? What's— what do you think is the actual distinction, and what puts someone in the position to understand their sincerity?

Dr.: Yeah, all right, so, so it's an interesting thing to call someone else insincere because What's more accurate is to say, I feel as though they are insincere. And there's— if you're recognising the feeling in yourself, it's probably because you're noticing some sort of incongruence between what the person is saying and what their actions are. So if someone's saying something and you look at the body language, you think, that doesn't seem to, like, you know, I'm really, I'm really excited to be here, guys. It's like, I'm not really sure, you know. And so this one thing I've learned being on stage, uh, and I have such an allergy to the know-it-all, arrogant, uh, motivational speaker type, is that if I—

Josh: I love that it's an allergy, by the way. Just imagine you like side of stage just sneezing.

Dr.: Allergy is such a lovely word. It's kind of like an exaggerated reaction.

Josh: Yeah, get hives.

Dr.: And it's not making them bad, it's just just noticing in me I have this allergy. So I just noticed that when I say something on stage and/or anytime and I realize, oh, actually that didn't feel right, I'll air that out in the moment rather than try to be— try to persist with it.

Josh: What's the air out? What does that look like?

Dr.: Uh, I might say something like blah blah blah blah, and then we're like, oh shit, actually that sounded a little bit arrogant.

Josh: Or you say it to your— you say it to yourself, to myself with the microphone on.

Dr.: So, you know, that seems to— I know, you know, if more people kind of did that, we we get this kind of messier but possibly truer sense of the world.

Josh: What's been the— have you had a moment on stage where you've had a bit of a panic attack? Where, you know, as someone who was the Speaker of the Year, what's been like one of those moments where you're like, this is the anti-Speaker of the Year experience?

Tommy: Is that like what a comedian experiences?

Dr.: Yeah, I've got this reframe to it, like this kind of antifragile perspective to it. Um, because like, I find that when comedians— I love the moments when they're going off script, when something's happened or someone's heckled and you're watching them kind of react and you realize, oh cool, for this snippet of time this is all super real, and you're getting a glimpse as to who they are in that particular— it's a glimpse into their character under that context. So anytime moments like that happen, like, I remember I wore a vest once and I realised my torso is a bit longer than, um, think So it has this kind of strip of— you can see the shirt underneath.

Tommy: Yes.

Dr.: And then, um, uh, I— my jeans have gotten too big, and you know when you kind of tighten up your belt and then it creates this old D thing?

Tommy: Yeah.

Dr.: So I had the shirt poking out underneath the belt of the back.

Josh: Yeah.

Dr.: And I realised this on stage. Um, so you can't pretend that that's never happened. You can't pretend that the rest of the folks haven't seen it. So you just got to kind of own it So I explained my torso and the shirt and so on, but people seemed to love it and it was super endearing. And I think that— I think people generally find it refreshing when people in supposed positions of authority like Barack Obama show these glimpses of humanity.

Tommy: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm just thinking, if that's your biggest bomb, just wore the wrong outfit.

Dr.: Okay, well, here's another one.

Tommy: Um, have you ever legit like gone, I've lost my train of thought? I, I mean I mean, you don't win Sprig of the Year for consistently doing that, but I, you know, early days, like I think about early days of our show, there's all moments where you are getting pulled out of the moment.

Josh: You sweat a lot. Like, I, as soon as anything's going bad for me, yeah, I'll probably actually feel it first through the amount I'm sweating.

Dr.: There are really bad times where you suddenly, you notice you're sweating or something like that, and then suddenly you're not.

Josh: In the moment.

Dr.: Attention to the audience, you're kind of on yourself and you're kind of preening and you're all— and then the editor comes on, you've got this editing voice whilst you're in the present moment and you're completely disconnected to all the nuances. Um, and in the early days, everyone does this, they build too many slides and they're kind of reading off the slides. And what I've learned with them when it comes to presentations is I'm most comfortable without slides or with very few slides, and I never practice. And not practising is the key to being a really good speaker, I believe.

Josh: And so what's the framework then if it's not the practicing? Is it working in themes?

Dr.: Uh, yeah, kind of. You have your domains of knowledge and expertise and you have senses of how you might frame it. Um, it's almost like you have a deck of cards of like different, um, what a mate of mine, Matt Church, calls IP snapshots— intellectual property snapshots.

Josh: I think Seth Godin does this so well. Like, I know it's on the podcast with him, we could throw him anything and it was sort of synthesised into an article in front of our eyes.

Dr.: Beautiful. Whereas if you practise a presentation and you've kind of got it timed and you practise a few times, when it's real time, you are so primed to notice something that's wrong. Like, it's like, oh, this moment is not going how I practiced. Yeah, therefore I'm not doing well. Whereas the scrap all the practising things, just know your stuff, get up there, be present. Is a much better pathway.

Josh: Do you collaborate with many people?

Dr.: Um, collaboration is an interesting one. I like— if I was asking you guys questions, I'd be so fascinated to unpack like what some of the things—

Josh: absolutely.

Dr.: Don't do it.

Tommy: It's—

Dr.: yeah, it's been interesting for me, the whole collaboration thing, because I'm kind of, uh, been lone wolfing it for a long time, so I don't know how well that I play with others, but Um, were you like that in school? Yeah, yeah, yeah, totally. Yeah, I just did my own thing. So yeah, yeah, I don't know how well I am at collaboration. And I also feel like people are a little bit too obsessed with the notion of collaboration. It's become a bit of a popular narrative.

Tommy: Hit me in the DMs for a collab. Everyone just says that. YouTubers, yo, hit me, hit me up. Yeah, well, we've found them turbulent. And I think it's the definition that people take into what, you know, into a collaboration, of what a collaboration actually is.

Dr.: Well, it might— you know, I saw the scale once where there's like, uh, contracting, uh, cooperation, collaboration, and co-creation. And co-creation is fun. This is where, this is where like things are flowing and it's just co-created. I don't know the distinct nuance of what collaboration is, but a lot of people think collaboration is collaboration, but it's really like either contracting or cooperating, which is what we got to naturally of feeling like—

Tommy: my thinking was collaboration is we mutually agree on most things, we meet at the exact same— yeah, which we discovered that maybe it's not the best way with how we both are.

Josh: Or having someone to lead, being able to say like collaborating, co-creation doesn't mean that everyone gets equal say across everything.

Dr.: Yeah, because that the all the live performances I've done where I've been kind of doing a joint keynote or workshop with someone, the worst ones have been where it's 50/50, where we're both— there's no clear leader. And the best ones are, all right, you lead the opening, I'll kind of come in with this bit, you lead that bit, and we'll kind of both see what happens and finish at the end. And that's, that's, that's much better, like this kind of ebb and flow.

Mason: This—

Dr.: we, we can't be flat in terms of hierarchy all the time. Sometimes it needs to be some ebbs and flows. And the thing is just trying to make sure that the hierarchies aren't fixed and permanent. So we can have this kind of—

Josh: yeah, I mean, you're lucky that you, you know, you drive along any street and you see, you know, big brands, and there's a good chance that you've probably worked with some of the top executives in those, in those companies, helping them with, you know, complex issues. What do you think are some of the universal issues that organisations are dealing with?

Dr.: Um, in a nutshell, uh, everyone's way too busy. Uh, the hyperconnection of the internet means that work isn't just happening at work anymore. People are working at homes, they're on their phones all the time. As a result of this, uh, people are kind of— feel that they're time poor and don't invest quality thinking into important topics, and they find themselves continuously doing things that provide a rich and immediate sense of progress which could actually be a delusion of progress. So checking email, firing off emails, hosting meetings, doing all those things just creates all this busyness and noise. And the question is, is this moving us closer to future relevance? I'm not sure. I'm just slipped into—

Josh: I mean, what's the— what's the, um, how do you measure the other bit? So I guess like when you're working with, uh, big business, the stakeholders want to be like, okay, how, how are we going? And you've got a number of metrics that you could use. How does the measuring align with the new way of thinking of maybe not sending as many emails as we are?

Dr.: Yeah, I think that, I think that we need to loosen our grip on metrics a bit. I think we become a little bit too metric obsessed, um, and this also relates to people that are overly optimising their lives. Um, you know, they've got apps for every single thing that they're doing and they've got all the numbers. That can work, but it can also get to the point where you're actually out of the moment and you're missing key things and you're not actually enjoying yourself. So loosen the grip on the metrics and create spaces to do more qualitative sense-making. I'm not saying that metrics are bad, but sometimes we need to just cheque in with each other. Like, say for you guys with this, this thing, you could be looking just at the, the numbers, right? But I'm sure that everyone—

Tommy: they're on the screen over there.

Dr.: Yeah, but I'm sure that in amongst that you also have moments where you're hanging out thinking 'What, what if this?' or 'Maybe we should do this.' Or I know that, uh, you get particularly excited because you'll have conversations with different people asking what they think, and if they say, 'I'm not sure if that's a good idea,' you'll be like, 'Awesome, yeah, it's a great idea.' Absolutely.

Josh: And so I guess the, the hard bit is intentionality and consciousness. In some regards, don't you think it relies on measurement in being able to— so when I think about being unconscious, it's not being aware of what I'm doing, it's not having sort of the, the key marks along the way to milestones to make sure that I'm doing the right thing. How do we stay conscious, intentional, without having to know that this is how many kilometres I walked today?

Dr.: Um, there's, there's like a calibration based upon what level of distance into the future you're looking at. So the further into the future, the fuzzier and more qualitative you want to be. So over a space of a year, choose a one word as a theme, as a contextual theme to influence the types of decision you might make. But if you're looking at the next 3 months or the next month, you might want to crystallise that a bit more into a project or something that will have a deliverable, something that will be done. And if you're looking at a daily or weekly level, you might want to be more focused on actions. Like I did this thing, like I'm doing this, and that kind of balances it out.

Tommy: Josh and I are trying to intentionally create a business that is the one that you're saying is the, the new way of doing it. How, if you're working for someone that is the, we're on Slack until 11 PM, you're expected to answer your emails every day, when you're in that environment, what's it, how do you, I mean, you're at the top talking to the people who run these companies, so you're doing it from the top.

Josh: They're the culture makers in some regard.

Tommy: But how do you, if you're an employee we, you know, Mr. 97's on Slack until 12 AM giving us updates. We don't even look at him, but he was told him to do it. No, but how do you—

Josh: that's because that's how long his dates go for.

Tommy: How do you counter it without getting fired?

Dr.: Like, yeah, it's, it's really tough, and that's a big, really important question of our times. And I mean, the people at the top ought to be the culture makers, but the, the paradox is a lot of people that have worked themselves into a position of power and authority within large organisations have spent most of their career playing the old game, and in order to, to work in this new world, they need to dismantle the very structures that got them into the place where they are right now. And then you have these pockets of newer ways of thinking amidst the organisation which are just kind of working a little bit differently. But again, it's not easy if you've got a manager breathing down your neck saying, I need these reports, and they're saying, I don't think this is meaningful at all. But, um, so I don't know, there's a the short answer to that. Um, but I do feel like what we're going to see over the next 10 years is this fragmentation. This— the old monolithic big companies are going to become more fragmented, smaller, and we're going to have more of a fluid network effect where it's about kind of who you know, the legacy of the work that you've done, and you'll just find yourself in different roles and positions. And the notion of a career path will be an, you know, humorous, antique, you know, dated concept of our parents, and are you much more about a collection of projects and things, teams that you've been involved with at different points in time?

Josh: Cal Newport talks about knowledge workers, and it seems like you're a great example of a knowledge worker, someone who spends, you know, large amounts of time in deep work, you know, synthesising your ideas, all of that type of thing. Is the, um, In regards to the future with knowledge work, is there going to be a risk? Do you think that it's hard to charge for those sorts of things? Like, what's the, what's the future of people who are making their money through coming up with ideas?

Dr.: And I would hope that the future is a little less, um, it goes back to that guru thing beforehand. I would hope that people become wiser to where we're not going to see a particular individual with this cult of charisma get obscene amounts of money for essentially synthesising other people's ideas into a particular form. I would still hope that they'd be paid well, but I'd hope that everyone would be paid well no matter what role they play. So I come back to things like roles, right? If we see the world as, you know, to quote Shakespeare, all the world's a stage and all the women and men are but players, We see this as a Shakespeare quote on the podcast, episode 292. I'm not well versed in Shakespeare, so I think I mangled that. But if we see this, this kind of infinite game of which we all adopt a different role, we would wear— we put on different costumes, we play a different part in this grand pantomime that is existence. Um, then, then it becomes less important to kind of win in terms of the capitalist mode. Um, in fact, you know, this is interesting because we're now getting into post-capitalism here, which, uh, I think capitalism is a dated model We've got ecological unsustainability, we've got inequality, we've got, um, alienation in our modern world. This post-capitalism world— it's not to say that capitalism isn't important, but there are other types of capital other than finances. One thing that you guys excel in is cultural capital.

Josh: There's this notion that, like, your sense of, like, doesn't buy a fucking bagel though.

Dr.: It doesn't. No, it doesn't get you a bagel, but I think unless you get a bagel deal Yeah, for the show, which is Five and Dime Bagels.

Josh: Delicious. Some of the best. Five and Dime. Have you had Five and Dime Bagels?

Dr.: I consider them the best in Melbourne.

Josh: They stock to like 40 different cafes.

Dr.: Oh, do they?

Josh: Actually, yeah, they're based in Melbourne.

Dr.: Salted one's pretty delicious.

Josh: Yeah, I like— they do like a bacon and chipotle maple sort of one, which is delicious too. Five and Dime.

Tommy: This is off-brand. This is off-brand for Dr. Fox.

Josh: Oh, exactly. Anyway, he'll send them in.

Dr.: Long storey short, I think, I think we're in the nascent stages here, and I think this is, this is all good work.

Tommy: Yeah. Are you excited about the future?

Dr.: Um, yes.

Josh: Please don't say no, because it's a yes and.

Dr.: It's like, I feel like we're hurtling ourselves towards extinction and, uh, we're bringing every beautiful species along with us. And at the same time, just to simply default to that would be rather um, so yes, infinite possibilities and wondrous opportunities offered by the internet, people co-creating with each other, uh, amidst a backdrop of, um, you know, concerning doom.

Josh: I mean, what do you think about when you— whenever I do things that are life-changing for me, like big steps in life, I think that I start to go into the overthinking mode of being like, what does it all mean? When you recently, you know, bought a new place and all that process, does it go through the back of your mind ever where it's like Kim Jong-un could fucking blow all this shit up soon anyway and so what does it all matter?

Tommy: I can just imagine you sipping a long black just thinking about that.

Josh: Yeah, but could you imagine? Like, the thing is, it's like, what's it all like?

Tommy: It's a weird thought.

Josh: Yeah, but it is. But it's also like, you know, do we really— like, what's property going to be worth if there's World War III?

Dr.: Uh, and I think all of these are kind of really mature thoughts to, to be having. We just don't need to stay in there. There's this, there's this, there's this period of going through where you recognise the meaninglessness of things, but then— and that can be bleak— but then you realize, oh, actually, but there's still meaning. We can't help but make meaning out of things. So even though there's a backdrop of meaninglessness, we can make things mean things, which means that we can actually Ultimately, if we take all these trappings aside, we know that suffering is real, and if we can align our efforts in a way that reduces or mitigates suffering in the world, we're doing something of meaning.

Tommy: Uh, your latest podcast episode, you were talking with a friend. Um, it's not Amanda, it's Amanda. Amanda. Nearly got there.

Mason: Very good.

Tommy: Um, you were talking about that you were having thoughts of the commercial viability of your next book, which you identified as—

Mason: yeah.

Tommy: The wrong thinking going into an endeavor. Josh and I talking about the podcast and the brand we're building out, and we have conversations about commercial viability or making money from the thing we do, which I kind of feel like we'll work it out. And so we're not spending all our days trying to work out how to monetize everything.

Dr.: Yeah.

Tommy: What's, what's your thoughts on things that we need to make money and we're spending a lot of time on this thing?

Mason: Yeah.

Tommy: But it's counter to think about the money. How, what have you tackled? How have you wrestled?

Dr.: Again, it comes back to that beautiful paradox. And I think that you guys are doing this so well. Like I said, it inspires me the way that you guys go about this. So what—

Josh: we don't own any property as well. That's another thing too. So just for a preference of that, or vehicles.

Tommy: I am—

Dr.: all right, so academic speak, what you guys are demonstrating there is a type of meta-rationality. It's situational meaning-making. So, uh, it's antifragile. It's, uh, it's where you're approaching things as what Nassim Taleb, the author of Antifragile, would call as a rational flâneur. A rational flâneur is someone who kind of makes sense of things as they go and kind of puts pieces together, rather than the tourist, which will map out a very, very specific plan of everything that needs to be done.

Tommy: And usually ride on a red bus with—

Josh: Exactly, yeah, yeah, yeah. Exactly.

Dr.: And then this plan might be beautiful, and in a traditional sense you'd have these business people say, oh, good plan. But it can also be very fragile. All it takes is someone to get unwell or something to not work, and then things collapse. So I think your approach is really quite sound. I think your distrust of whatever the conventional narratives are around what you should be doing is also very wise. There's this— you guys spend enough time in this world to have a sense of things, and you can kind of— everyone can tell this, this kind of sense that, oh, I feel like they're kind of selling out a little bit, or I feel like the cracks are showing in terms of their integrity to offering, and that kind of intuitive sense checking If you guys keep that alive and not— and this is a risk, um, I remember reading Jason Fried, the co-CEO of Basecamp, uh, 37signals, was— had a chapter about how they don't have goals. They never have goals. And he recalled the one time that they did have goal for Basecamp, certain number of users by a certain time, it led to them doing all sorts of things that in hindsight were brand damaging. Like they'd push sales, they offered discounts, they did all these things just to rush to meet arbitrary figure.

Tommy: I took a bagel deal.

Josh: You know, that sounds like a good deal, but we'll take it.

Dr.: So, um, so yeah, I think your approach is good. Unfortunately, it's hard because it's— because you're in an emerging pioneering field, there are other reference points to easily point to. Um, but if we just— if we sense it based upon your protosynthesis of everything you're— I think that the way you guys are going about it makes sense. Or at least I'm saying that because I hope that the way I'll go about writing a book that's not commercially viable Makes sense too.

Josh: I mean, the— that idea that you're the second or the underdog, you know, like there's always the examples of the Hungry Jack's or the Optus or the Pepsi and being the second player and how that gives you the ability to innovate and be cheeky and to do things in a different way. The fear that, uh, I have is I guess the more we go on, the more that we can sort of the— say, the more people that listen, the, the inclination— like, there's a— we then tend to start asking the questions of, like, we've got more people listening, we've got more to lose, we need to be thinking about, oh, are the new audience— are they going to be resonating with the stuff that we spoke about 6 episodes ago? Should we be changing? How do you stay true to your plan when you start to move up the chain from that second position?

Dr.: Yeah, that's a beautiful question. There's, there's a philosophy that I try to hold on to, um, in that, uh, success is for losers.

Mason: Yeah.

Dr.: Um, and the notion of like, be very distrustful of the notion of success, because as soon as you consider yourself successful, you have something to lose. Um, and so this happens— I was chatting with a friend who just got a deal with a, what, a bagel company? Signed with a literary agent. It's like, uh, basically in New York, and, um, she'd then written more chapters, but the chapters— her agent said, hang on, this has changed. Um, I signed you on because of this type of writing, but now you've gone all formal and, and stuff. And, and as soon as you think, oh, we've got more listeners now, we're gonna do this thing properly, you might lose some of the magic that got you here in the first place. So a tentative thing— I think if the metric is more, or the focus is more on progress, are we doing better than we did before, without it being fixed on a particular thing, that might be helpful.

Josh: What is better? I guess that's what we're trying to define, is it's like, for us, it's the, um, it's the hybrid, it's the, um, proto-synthesis, I guess, in some, some way, where it's like, we want to get the— we see ourselves as not the smartest people in the room, potentially. And so the idea of bringing the dumb and the smart and the, like, all of that stuff together, I know it's putting labels on it, but from a from a way of being able to describe it. I mean, that's how I actually feel about it. It's like, let's get different people with different varying levels of experiences.

Dr.: Yeah, yeah. Well, I mean, I, I would— I can imagine a world where, like you were just talking beforehand, that, um, Jordan Peterson was on Q&A. I can imagine folks like that, next time they're in Australia, there'll be a time where like, oh, we've got to get on the Daily Talk Show, like I can see this kind of natural organic growth. I know for me personally, because I've been on a lot of podcasts, it is so refreshing to chat with you guys because it feels so real. Whereas on many other, uh, shows it can feel like you're doing some sort of co— like, I'm gonna make you look good, you make me look good and stuff.

Josh: Yeah.

Dr.: And I think that you guys just stay the course as you are. Um, you know, I don't, I don't know.

Josh: I don't— yeah, because there will be a bunch of people—

Dr.: a magic thing going on.

Josh: Yeah, because I think there's— there'd be a bunch of people who would see our shtick where it's bringing them in to interview Mr. 97. And if we did— if we got Jordan Peterson— fuck, could you imagine Jordan Peterson? That'd be just—

Mason: that'd be amazing.

Josh: Keep your shoulders up. What does he say? Tommy knows what he says. What does he say?

Dr.: Like a lobster or something?

Tommy: Stand up straight, put your shoulders back.

Dr.: Um, but there's also this thing—

Tommy: he's already got great posture. Mr. 97, they would not say the best core I've ever seen.

Mason: Yeah.

Dr.: I, uh, but there's also this thing like this within organisations in the corporate world. There is this dearth of authenticity and congruence, right? And I can imagine, I don't know, there's some sort of— there's something you're doing. I'm not sure how it translates. And, uh, I'd be very wary of business plans, but experimenting with little projects. All right, let's just see if that works over the next month or 3, and if that doesn't, drop it.

Tommy: I'm glad it doesn't make sense to you because it doesn't make sense to us. For you, Josh, you you did your podcast, um, years and years ago. It was 10 episodes. Yeah, Josh speaking. What— but think about the guy you were then to what we do now.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: And what— it was there a sense of thinking about what people wanted?

Mason: Did you—

Tommy: what do you think their, their learning there was?

Josh: Uh, I reckon it was an creative expression, and it just fit. And this is where I think a lot of people are getting into podcasting now, where it's like 'Oh, this is a great opportunity just to meet with people.' And so I think the hard thing is, as I go on and see more podcasts evolve, it seems like that's the, the reason that people get into the game. And so it becomes— they're leading with, 'I'm doing this because I want to meet with this person,' versus a curiosity. I think that's part of it. It's like curiosity. It's like, I can't— I don't feel comfortable asking a person to say, 'Hey, can I just, uh, chat to you for an hour and just ask you sort of questions that could be confronting. But if I have a microphone, it seems like I can maybe get away with a lot. This, for me, creativity and tools are a mechanism for like a safety net for me to be able to ask things and sound dumb or get things wrong and be okay.

Dr.: Yeah, yeah. And, and there's also, from the other perspective, um, it's also quite nice to be able to do something that's one-to-many. Um, whereas, you know, my inbox is overflowing with— not overflowing, I get people saying, I'd love to shout you a coffee and pick your brain. And I think, ah, it's probably not going to be the best use of my time for an hour. But if it's like, hey, I'd like to, um, you know, would you like to be on the podcast? Because then they can ask me the questions, but then I know that the answer is going to help more than just one person.

Josh: Yeah, I mean, I think that even how you and I, Jason, got in touch initially was through I saw a talk that you did and I was like, we need a reason to collaborate. And I think that part of it is like at the beginning these things aren't always clear.

Dr.: Yeah.

Josh: And it's like trying to— do you have any thoughts around how to identify, you know, you want to reach out to people, you want it like, how, how do you position it? How do you, how do you frame it to, to connect with people?

Dr.: Oh no, I wish I knew. I don't know. I, yeah. I don't know, and particularly without relying on social media too, 'cause then what are you left with, an email channel? I'd say there was this one guy once who sent me an email and he had a little video that he put in there, totally personalized, and he had like the book and he just talked about, he did all that, like he stroked my ego.

Josh: Yeah, perfect.

Dr.: Hugely, and it was super effective, and then I caught up with him in New York when I was there, and I feel like again, there's probably more of that human vulnerability of making the effort probably helps with connecting with folks.

Tommy: There's so many things at play. Timing, when you slip into someone's inbox. How did you guys do it?

Josh: Well, I think I just emailed. The good thing is, where I feel really lucky is that I've been doing the video stuff for a while, so I've created this thing outside myself which is what I call like my work. And so my work is almost people saying, oh, this is how— this is what Josh is like. Yeah, if that— like, it's a self-expression without me having to say, this is the type of guy I am. So I can send— like, I remember I think I sent links to, uh, an Offscreen Magazine video I made and things like that. So Jason can look at it and say, I— people, you know, Seth Godin always talks about people like us do things like this. And so I think that part of it is it's a process in the email of like, how can I show you the similarities in each other? How can I show that we have similar taste?

Dr.: Yeah, yeah, yeah, there's that. Hence where we then get back into the whole preening, you know, the fact that the internet has this legacy, this— these petrified snapshots of our past selves that we can kind of influence and manage to some degree, but we don't also want to get too swept up on it. So you emailed, you shared a few links. I remember I saw the video that you did of the comedian and stuff.

Josh: Okay, yeah, yeah, Simon Taylor, real, that was, and stuff.

Dr.: And yeah. Than on the phone, and you've got good phone manner.

Tommy: So are we talking about Mr. 97's date?

Josh: Exactly, yeah, we're actually— we're going into more details.

Tommy: So you guys recently— oh, you put out a video that Josh— yes, you collaborated or co-created.

Dr.: Created.

Josh: Sounds like we had a child together, basically.

Tommy: Yeah, it was the evolution of the date.

Dr.: We created this digital thing. And when was that filmed?

Josh: Was in June, July? No, June. Yeah, I'm trying to remember now. It was before I went away.

Dr.: I went away.

Josh: It was a— the experience that I loved with it is your willingness to sit on stuff. From it, like, a—

Dr.: the—

Josh: as a, as a self-confessed procrastinator and a lover of, uh, thinking about things and moving things around, and it sort of becomes this game of chess where it's like a little bit slower. For me, it was like a unique experience that you gave me to sort of allow that process.

Dr.: Yeah, because when you started, Josh was like, I work best in sprints, so, you know, we'll kind of get this thing filmed and within a few, few days and something, we'll have like a working rough draft. But it took maybe— seemed to be over a period of weeks. Yeah, the filming was accumulated. And then of course, in amongst Josh being travelling overseas and all that, these little snippets and update. But the, the thoughtfulness that went into it is like— it's like the questions that you guys have on your show. There's Josh is there with the camera, and of course I have in my mind a particular version of a narrative that I'd love for people to see. Look at this confident authority and stuff. But then I also have enough distrust of that, because if I was just to simply do that, if I was to create this myself, I'd create this thing that I would, I would loathe and be not willing to share. And instead, I think Josh's incisive questions just presented a much more rounded and more human version of this, uh, uh, of the approach that I take.

Tommy: And, and well, that's co-creation at its finest. You're actually putting trust in what he does, you're bringing what you have, but not saying yours is—

Dr.: yeah, it was a really beautiful process because I think a lot of the times that when I've worked with folks, you know, you have a provider that is trying to like give the client what they want, but often the client doesn't really know what they want. And also if they think they know what they want, it's pretty often not really what they really need.

Josh: Yeah.

Dr.: Um, so the trust thing is really, really handy, you know, to, to actually be like, all right, this is co-created here. I'm going to reveal bits of myself and you can hang on, that sounded— parts of my identity and stuff. And yeah, and it flowed beautifully. The funny thing is I've got this wonderful short documentary, it's about 9 minutes, it's beautiful, so artfully shot, and like the As from a videography, uh, filmmaking perspective, uh, filmmaker perspective, it is beautiful. The, the kind of the lacing of the soundtrack and how the scenes thread and how you've got these juxtapositions and these like little hints and stuff. It is, it is a work of art. I am so, so— I'm beyond chuffed with it. Like, it is, it is so beautiful. The thoughtfulness that is baked into every single element to this is wonderful. And still I find it kind of awkward to share, you know. Um, I love it so much, but there's something funny about, hey, here's a, here's a short documentary about me and the process I take towards, um, you know, doing a keynote. It was actually me doing— and I've mentioned in my newsletter, but with a bunch of other things. I haven't shared it on LinkedIn, and it's there on YouTube, but I haven't really promoted it. Yeah, I don't know why.

Josh: I think it's that— well, Tommy and I talk about this a lot which is that getting a video done for your company or your personal brand, however you wanna sort of phrase it, it is hard to then put it out into the world without it looking like a big promo piece. I think that the thing is, what I loved with the process is you allowed me to identify the narrative for you. You didn't dictate the narrative. You didn't say, I need to look this certain way. And so I had the framing of, I really like Jason, I want to celebrate Jason, I want to show— and part of celebration for me is that we are these complex people and that we're not just this like kicking goals all the time, but there's levels of— if you want to celebrate someone doing a talk, seeing their struggle or seeing their self-doubt actually makes it, I think, a lot more powerful.

Dr.: And you're also very good at protecting, uh, the integrity of, of that as well. Because I remember there were times where I'm like, oh, I've got this— like, I'd met up with Josh, I've prepared these things, I thought it might be good to, um, you know, to talk through the steps that I take, and they're all written out. And Josh is like, oh yeah, yeah, maybe we'll do some other things. Yeah, kind of deliberately didn't go to the— yeah, to the prepared stuff, and that allowed us to capture more of the real stuff.

Josh: Yeah, well, if you think about it, it's like, um, If you are right-handed and you're making a video that requires both hands to be used, it doesn't make sense to lead with the strong, strong arm. And so for me, it was like I knew that you were comfortable in this realm of— you understood your material, and I had no doubt that you were going to be able to nail it because that's what you do in a presentation. So it's about— for me, it's like leading in the ambiguity leading with the stuff that makes us uncomfortable, because then we can have so much fun in the other bit, which, which comes easy.

Dr.: Yeah.

Tommy: Um, if you're listening to this, watch our YouTube channel, or go to our YouTube channel, forward slash The Daily Talk Show. We're going to put the video that we're talking about at the end of this podcast. But before we get to that, you released a book. What's the difference between, like, in terms of how you felt—

Josh: two books—

Tommy: put— putting out The second book, the first book and the second book versus this, like, did you have the same anxiety, the same thoughts?

Dr.: Yeah, there's something, and I think we just need to get better at that. Like, I— you, you kind of— you need— you become a slave to your past self. I need to champion this work even though my thinking's evolved since it's been published. Um, so there, I guess there's more of me in the video than the book. It's easy to kind of just start talking about the ideas and stuff, um, but you, you're actually seeing me on the screen. And, and it's probably all the primal awkwardness that we have with hearing our own voice recorded or seeing ourselves, like, oh, that's— that what I look like? Is that what I sound like? So there's all that, but it's a beautiful video. I mean, I love it. The documentary is wonderful. And I'm just really curious as to what these odd psychological quirks are that kind of— but I think you're right. Like, I'm honored. Thank you for sharing that after the video. It's lovely. It's so much easier when I can encourage other people to share.

Josh: Yeah. What's your palate for feedback like?

Dr.: I disabled comments on YouTube.

Tommy: Why'd you do that?

Dr.: So it's interesting because I'm haunted by these really old TEDx videos that I did. I just spoke at TEDx Perth like maybe 12 years ago or 11 years ago. And because it's got the most views, it kind of goes up to the top when people search. Um, and then you have people kind of critiquing my thinking, my style, and so on. And it just reminds me of like a self that I no longer am anymore, and yet I know it kind of forms a first impression.

Tommy: Protosynthesis.

Dr.: That's right.

Josh: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Tommy: It's different to who you were 12 years ago.

Dr.: And, uh, well, we're different today to who we were yesterday.

Tommy: Um, pretty similar.

Josh: You're wearing the same hat.

Dr.: Yeah, intimately continuous.

Josh: Mr. 97 has had some some serious, um, he's a different man. Yeah, that's right, he's synthesized, he's done, he's actually like downloaded.

Dr.: Um, yeah, yeah. And, uh, so, but it's also, I know that you, when you publish a video with the comments, you're going to get a lot of the nice kind of generic comments like, oh wow, that's great, so cool. And that's, there's a saccharine quality of LinkedIn where everyone can post any bullshit and people are going to come in and say, oh wow, so awesome.

Josh: It's the circle jerk, which we spoke about on our first episode.

Dr.: I try not to mention it, 'cause I've been saying that term a little bit too much. But yeah, it's the circle jerk. And you spend enough time in the circle jerk and you realise actually there's a better way.

Josh: Yeah, I'm exhausted.

Tommy: Yeah, it's the equivalent of asking your family for feedback and then, mm.

Josh: Yeah, yeah. Unless you ask my mom.

Mason: Yeah.

Josh: She'll slam me. No, but I think, no, she's actually supportive. And so what's the, Where is the place for feedback in this whole process?

Dr.: Well, I'm very—

Tommy: It's not on your YouTube video.

Dr.: Yeah, I have like, I make a sign, I have wards against unsolicited feedback or like people give me unsolicited feedback and I've learned to kind of keep it trapped in this nebulous field. So I don't actually take it into my psyche because some of the feedback I'd get from my speaking was like, you speak too fast, you say um and ah, you need to sound more confident. You need to blah blah blah and blah blah blah. And I learned that ignoring all of that stuff is what led me to get Keynote Speaker of the Year. And, and I know that often people feel the need to give advice and offer perspective that you haven't asked for. Um, or if I ever need to ask for advice or a perspective, I'll be very specific in what I'm looking for. So I might share a chapter and I might be something like, okay, I just want you to know, how does this feel? I'm a little bit worried about the tone here. I don't want to sound condescending or something, and, and then I'm getting feedback filtered through that lens rather than talking about the idea itself.

Tommy: Or I'm pretty self-critical. Like, I think over the time I've— I, I observe what I'm doing and I, and I make the changes along the way. Is there a time to actually just go the opposite direction to what you normally feel and actually take it on? Not— I'm not talking to random—

Dr.: I think that you're— I mean, but the whole— that Hugh Guyton has this book called Ignore Everybody and 39 Other Keys creativity. Yeah, and there's—

Tommy: I think Nordy's book—

Josh: I've not read it yet.

Dr.: Exactly, sounds good. And I think that if we acknowledge that, like, I have more than enough self-criticism to— like, I don't need additional stuff on top. Like, I'm super critical with myself, uh, which is an interesting thing that, uh, self-improvement is self-loathing in a way. So there's, there's got to be some bits of yourself that you don't quite accept or feel as good enough if you want to improve. So it's that juxtaposition of self-loathing, self-loving, and so on. Um, but you know, to accept feedback and stuff like that, if I'm entering a whole new domain, like I've been considering the, the benefits of going into something or doing some improv training, like improvisation, which would be cool. And it's also like I'm willing to suspend any of my own assumptions and stuff in that area because I don't really know enough, and it would be, it'll be fun to play with.

Josh: So possibly I would love to watch you do improv. You should do like a full, like, next documentary. Yeah, yeah, you, yeah, yeah, I love that you were like No, I'm talking about you. I think you'd be great.

Dr.: Well, maybe. I mean, I tried with the whole interview with Mr. 97.

Tommy: This is improv. I think you and I, Josh, are getting better at improvising content and ideas.

Josh: But I like the idea of entering into different personalities as well, like different characters.

Dr.: Yeah.

Josh: Um, could we potentially— I want to ask about social media, and then I wanted to— maybe we could finish on Mr. 97, if you could think about a scene and give us all different, uh, characters. So basically the location, and then give us each a character in that location, and then we're going to finish the show with an improv scene. Throw into the video, it could be a shop, uh, a supermarket, and I am the supermarket attendant. Is that what you call it?

Dr.: Like, he glances Is that Tommy?

Josh: Like, another silly idea that Josh is bringing to the podcast without running it past. So think about it, 97.

Tommy: But, um, I'll just say it— bagel shop.

Josh: No, absolutely not. Yeah, could you imagine? Actually, anyway, we'll leave that to 97. Social media stuff. Uh, I had a moment yesterday where I realised I have retired from social media. I put into the— in November, I put into the description of everywhere, I've retired from social media, you can visit my website. My website hasn't stayed as current as I have this sort of idealistic view that I was going to be doing deep work every Sunday and it was going to be raining and I was going to be sort of— we don't live in London and it was going to be, you know, I was going to be part of the 5 AM Club writing these muses. Anyway, that hasn't happened. But yesterday I deleted from LinkedIn on the description about retiring from social media and made a few adjustments and started engaging again. Yeah, I mean, you're a, you're a social media, uh, I wouldn't say critic, but you are very critical of social media and where it sits. What's, what's your thinking?

Dr.: Yeah, yeah, I feel like social media platforms is— let's talk about allergies. Like, I'll need to go in there kind of holding my breath like, like this is pungent, you know, I go into the space and I just try to get what I need to do done and get off there.

Josh: Um, but this is EpiPen in hand, ready for—

Dr.: but it's kind of odd because the algorithms reward those that are spending more time in there. So I might make a post and share it to the 8,000 folks on LinkedIn, um, but only gets seen by a small proportion. But the old mate who has a couple of thousand but is on there every day, he shares it and 1,500 people see it.

Josh: Sure.

Dr.: So, so there's this thing like, I don't know, can you win? Do you want to win? All of those things. And the answer is generally not really.

Josh: Do you want to win, I think, is a very interesting question because I think that confidence-wise, Tommy and I are like, yeah, we can win, we can win. There's no doubt that we can win all these different battles. But I think it's like, which fucking battle do we need? Because we could win in revenue, we could bring in more money, we can have more clients, we can be working 7 days a week, no problem. But do we want to win?

Dr.: What we want—

Tommy: yeah, what's the prize for winning? Yeah, that's like, they vary between that. Yeah, maybe people don't think about social media corrupts the moment and stuff.

Dr.: So the prize will be that you're spending a lot of time on your phones, I imagine. Um, and for me, the cost of this stuff is that I'm not writing my next book, and that feels like the most important thing for me to do at the moment. So in terms of social media, my stance currently is, um, it's almost like I've created avatars of myself. And this is like, I'm going to D&D, Dungeons and Dragons wizard speak here, right? You like, you cast like an illusion or an apparition of yourself, and they kind of programme to just, you know, to be like a relay to occasionally share things of import. But then I'm not actually there, I'm not present, I'm not in the platform itself. And then I have enough like, uh, wards in place so that if like the, the alerts like someone's mentioned you on Twitter or someone's like liked or commented on a post that you made on LinkedIn, I don't see that stuff. And it's just only occasionally when I dip in there once or twice a week. The thing is, I don't even think that is useful. I'm like, why do I— like, I deactivated Facebook.

Josh: Yeah, I've deleted Facebook. But the thing is, like, this is a good example where it's like, um, the video that I, you know, we co-created it's like, I'm like, I actually want to— I want to share this. And so I then I'm like, okay, well, maybe LinkedIn has a place.

Dr.: Well, there's this thing too, like, I want to celebrate your— the filmmaking that you've done, like the, the beautiful thing that you've put together. And that allows me like more motivation. Like, actually, I'm actually— this is good. I can honour Josh through doing this. That gives me an access and a motivation to get on there. And also, but there's also the knowingness of like how, how effective will this be? Because I haven't really been, you know, bowing myself to the algorithms on the different platforms.

Tommy: So fucking algorithm, it's hard because it's all these things do service if we do it in a way that then works for us as individuals. Because you two both overthink social media.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: And but then does it serve you not to overthink it? Maybe. But then it's, it's, it's weird.

Dr.: I remember I saw your, um, fishing video.

Tommy: Oh yeah, you've got the t-shirt on today.

Dr.: Before I knew of you, like, like it just Through Wikipedia, did you see it physically? No, like it appeared on LinkedIn and stuff, was doing the rounds and stuff, and it's kind of cool. And then when we met in real life, pennies connect and stuff, and it helps.

Tommy: I was on about—

Josh: oh, but still pushing it hard.

Tommy: So, so yeah, these things do serve a purpose, but it's like saying, Josh, about the personal work, sending it through to you off screen, like you get a sense of where he's from. That's helped me creating that personalised content. To then when I meet somebody, they kind of get a gauge who I am.

Josh: Yeah, but could we do that? Could TJ— could you have done that without social media?

Tommy: Uh, no, I don't think so.

Josh: You don't think?

Tommy: I think I've been a really great, um, networker, and I've had a huge network from when I was young based on going out, speaking to people, my confidence, and just my love of having conversation. But it is heightened through social media.

Dr.: The risk is, right, Either you go all platforms and then you come a bit dilute, you're not really excelling at any of them, or you choose a platform to do really well in. But like what we've seen with Facebook, what's happening with Instagram, what could happen with LinkedIn, the rugs could be pulled underneath you and this little empire that you've built, because you don't really own the media there or in the followings, one day you can find yourself in a really fragile position where it's disappeared.

Tommy: Because as we know, there's always a rug sale.

Josh: Yeah, exactly, that's right. Well, the other thing too is it's like, I think you can, I think you can be confused into believing that you're being strategic around, say, Instagram specifically. That idea of like, you know what, I'm gonna— I'm deciding I'm focusing, I'm getting rid of everything, I'm just going to stay on Instagram, is, is based on the idea that Instagram is the thing right now, right? So it actually strategically, you could say, it makes sense. But the reason you're going on Instagram is just because that's where the likes are coming in, that's where the engagement I wouldn't be surprised if at some stage in the future there's some blockchain-built platform that'll become the thing.

Dr.: Um, uh, I just don't know where it is or what it is.

Tommy: Then we'll all be overthinking that too. We'll all be like, how do I need— what is Bitcoin? I still don't know.

Josh: Well, I think that then it would be—

Tommy: do I need it to get in?

Josh: What?

Dr.: Just one.

Josh: No, I think that it would, it would get to a, get to a point where, yeah, like, I think that we, um, I imagine The curator part will be interesting. I could imagine like within, uh, blockchains initially, I could imagine it being a free-for-all, everyone, you know, connecting and following to everything. And then we'll realise that, okay, we only have the capacity to follow 100 people before diminishing returns or it starts getting hard. And that's where I think the place of curators, like say the Daily Talk Show, being like, we spoke about these things on the show and we're starting But I think that the risk is that we then become the same thing that Instagram is, which is we are controlling the world in which our listeners or viewers see the world.

Dr.: Curation is good. I mean, I think that what's interesting in amongst all this social media mess, there are some things that really haven't changed, like an email list. I think podcasts have been, uh, relatively kept pure and uncorrupted by advertising and algorithms. Um, I think that there's more than enough content on the internet now. Um, no, not say— let me rephrase that. There's a lot of content on the internet. There could be more good content. But I think what's lacking nowadays is context for us to gather. And I think we're going to start seeing this resurgence of people going out camping together or having like little festivals under the stars or something. These things that people thought would go away No, there's actually this kind of quiet resurgence, so this renaissance of meaningful live gatherings that complement the online worlds that we live.

Josh: Yeah, it's interesting because there is a sense that we just want to disconnect from all of this, and though those things really sort of are the representation of what that is. Improvisation Time, Mr. 97, what's the location?

Tommy: I will just say I don't ever—

Josh: this is why I'm the only one that does. What am I doing?

Dr.: Okay, a couple of quick principles of improvisation.

Josh: What do I know?

Dr.: It's like yes and, so you just got to say yes to everything. Yes. And your primary thing is to make others look good.

Josh: Yeah, we've got to celebrate.

Tommy: Yeah, so the opposite of our friendship.

Josh: Okay, so yeah, so you need to support this, TJ. This is a great idea.

Mason: All right, uh, yeah, this is— I've got no idea why this, uh, popped into my mind, but Josh, you're a, uh, shop assistant at Bunnings.

Josh: Okay, great.

Mason: Who's meant to know everything about everything. Perfect. And, uh, Tommy, Tommy, you're coming into Bunnings to pick up stuff and Jason, you're a tradie or someone coming past giving unsolicited advice because Josh doesn't know what he's doing.

Josh: That's okay, right?

Tommy: Everybody thinks he knows what he's doing.

Mason: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And he's just talking a bit of rubbish, and then Jason, you come in and—

Josh: yeah, yeah, right.

Mason: Perfect.

Josh: Uh, thank God you're here.

Tommy: Yeah, do you want me to start?

Mason: Yeah, yeah, Tommy, you start.

Tommy: Excuse me, mate, do you know where the, um, you know those things where you like, um, knock them into the wall, but you've got the cord that goes through and you— and it helps just keep it on the wall.

Dr.: Oh, Plug-a-Dugs.

Josh: Uh, nails. I think what you're referring to is now—

Dr.: yeah, I'm, uh, yeah, that's it.

Josh: I, I reckon, I reckon Jason came in way too hard.

Dr.: I came in pretty hard, like I overthought it.

Josh: Can we start again?

Dr.: Okay, where did he come from?

Josh: All right. All right, there needs to be a rule. There's 10 seconds. There's going to be 10 seconds between— all right, okay, Josh is going to struggle a little bit. Like, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, it's like— okay, all right, you enter as soon as I think that I've said something that you can then add to, uh, potentially.

Dr.: Yeah, I'm just loitering behind.

Mason: Yeah, exactly.

Josh: Yeah, so, but you haven't even I don't think you've entered the scene.

Mason: Yeah, it's like you walk up mid-conversation. Yeah, you're like, oh, hang on, he's got a call.

Dr.: Because my boss is paying for the time, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Tommy: Okay, okay, okay. I'm approaching Josh.

Josh: Hey, how you going, mate?

Tommy: Oh, g'day, mate. Um, I just need some Sally's All Clear. What aisle is that one in?

Josh: Sally's All Clear, mate, that would either be 6, 7, or 8 depending on the length What are you looking to clear?

Tommy: Ah, so what I'm trying to plug is a 6, 7, or 8.

Josh: That's the one? Yeah.

Dr.: Oh, hang on, it depends on what he's looking to clear.

Tommy: So what I'm looking to do is fill up a hole that my son punched in the wall.

Josh: Okay, I would definitely— Karate Kid.

Tommy: Oh mate, you should. Have you got kids?

Josh: I reckon 6 would have it.

Dr.: Got a dog.

Tommy: Yeah, it's, um, so which aisle is it? I'm unsure. 6, 7, or 8?

Josh: I'm thinking maybe 6 now that I think about it.

Dr.: Yeah, this is why I need to learn improv, right?

Josh: I think it was Yeah, it's— I think I reckon '97 fucked it. I think the bagel shop, I was thinking the whole time, bagel gear, bagel gear, bagel gear.

Dr.: I can sense that Tommy actually goes to Bunnings.

Tommy: Yeah, yeah, no, I definitely— I mean, I've been—

Josh: what was the thing? Clearly he's all clear. Oh, Sally's—

Tommy: there was an ad, ad for it. Anyway, that's the Daily Talk Show. We gotta— if you're listening, go over to our YouTube channel and look up this episode, 292 We're about to play the video that Josh and Jason co-created. It's a documentary, 9 minutes. What— enjoy it.

Josh: Okay, yeah, it's a Daily Talk Show. Hi@thedailytalkshow.com if you want to send unsolicited feedback. Otherwise, we'll see you tomorrow. See you guys.