Thoughts vs Facts

Tommy: The Daily Talk Show.

Josh: It's The Daily Talk Show, episode 266.

Tommy: 266. You, um, we spoke about— I love how memory just can go so quickly. Like, we literally just spoke about the number. The amount of shit I forget. One of them is knots. Like, I watch my dad tie knots, and I've watched him tie knots maybe 50, maybe 100 times, and then he's taught me maybe 50 times.

Josh: Which specific knots?

Tommy: I couldn't tell you the name of it, but it's sick. It's like this one, you fucking link it up, then you use the friction of the rope and it's not even tied off yet, but you can pull it down so it fastens the wood onto the ute.

Josh: That's a great book to own.

Tommy: What, Knot Tying?

Josh: Yeah. Do you reckon?

Tommy: Um, don't get your knickers in a knot. Anyway, I just need to say I was rubbing my hand along like a fucking idiot. I was admiring the wood. I was admiring the wall and I was just stroking it, and I stroked it and I went over a rusty nail and I made myself bleed. And I thought, fuck, I'm gonna get, uh, what do you call it, tetanus.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: But then I was thinking, I don't know anyone who's ever got tetanus. Like, there is many things in life that you just hear about but you don't know anyone who's ever I can't think of one right now, 'cause I'm just worried about getting tetanus, but I don't know if I will.

Josh: But what does it even cause? Like what's wrong with tetanus?

Tommy: I think tetanus is pretty lethal. Mr. 97's looking it up on his phone here.

Josh: It's a bacterial disease that causes muscle spasms and breathing problems. Maybe I have tetanus.

Tommy: You were having some slight breathing issues before.

Josh: Well, I, just before we started, we were doing a bunch of stuff on the board, like on the whiteboard. On the whiteboard.

Tommy: Whiteboarding out some shit.

Josh: Bit of blue sky thinking, the Daily Talk Show, where we want it to be. And I started like getting real sweaty and like anxious breathing. And I think it has everything to do with this cheese and salami. I had heaps of cheese and salami, but then I also realised that I had 2 strong coffees.

Tommy: Yeah, it's 100% the coffees. I've been getting a bit more anxious from coffees recently, but I just can't stop. Yeah, it's a problem with a drug, you can't stop. On Saturday last weekend, I went out for brekkie with some old neighbors.

Josh: Why? I've talked about—

Tommy: because interacting with humans is kind of a cool thing. Having friends is kind of cool.

Josh: Yeah, didn't offend anyone with cancer this time, did you?

Tommy: No, no offend, no offending of people, but these are great neighbors. I've talked about my neighbours now that Gronks.

Josh: So where did these neighbours come from? Next door, obviously. No, they were across the hallway. From your current building?

Tommy: No, no, across the hallway in our apartment block.

Josh: And now these are newish neighbors?

Tommy: No, no, these are old neighbours that have since left.

Josh: But newish neighbours in the sense of, I was thinking maybe, oh, when I was a kid I had neighbors. These are like adult friends.

Tommy: Adult friends.

Josh: So you had breakfast with them?

Tommy: Yeah, Amy's close with the woman and I'm mates with the dude and we all get along. So fucking conspiracy, Jim, is that? He weighs about 110 kilos and he was just hopping down. I think he was actually walking normally and he sounded like a giant. Anyway, so we went out for brekkie on Saturday morning and who facilitated it? Amy.

Josh: Okay.

Tommy: She's been texting, she's about to have a baby. Amy's not, yeah, the neighbor. And so it was really lovely. We always get along and just talk shit. And the dude, he's a, um, like a programmer, so I love just talking to him about some techie shit. And he, and he schooled me on something because we were talking— for some reason we're talking about, um, PayID.

Josh: So can you explain what PayID is? Is it an Australian-only thing?

Tommy: I'm not sure, but I think it could be different. Maybe it's— maybe we're forward in this technology.

Josh: Australia is way, way more forward. I remember having an American friend transfer me money and he said, oh, it was easy.

Tommy: Yeah.

Josh: And he had to fucking call his bank.

Tommy: Yeah.

Josh: That's not easy, bro.

Tommy: So basically there's some sort of verification ID that you can activate within your bank account. So ING, I turned it on. I didn't have PayID turned on.

Josh: I don't think so.

Tommy: Basically, I remember doing— Jules Lund, I'm so sorry— we got burritos one night in Bondi and I'm with Commonwealth Bank and I, at that stage I was in, and I was like, oh, I'll shoot you some money for the burrito? He's like, yeah, sweet.

Josh: That light fucking did that thing again, by the way.

Tommy: Yeah, it's flashing. Anyway, so I jumped onto my phone and I was like, oh, I could just text it through to him through this thing. And this is when it wasn't that good because he wasn't with CommBank.

Josh: ANZ had something, they had GoMoney. So it's this annoying thing where you text them and then they have to fucking put in their BSB and account details.

Tommy: He's like, fuck that. You get your burrito for free, you little shit. And I was like, oh, So anyway, that was my first encounter with what used to be something equivalent. Now it's super easy. Each bank can get, you can get a PayID, which is some sort of number, but it connects to your mobile phone number.

Josh: It's universal. So if you are, it doesn't matter what bank you are with, you can give your phone number to your friend and do they go into their bank app to do it?

Tommy: Yeah, so you're transferring the money through ING, okay, through PayID and yep, put in your number. And so we got talking about some sort of scam that he was under and he explained this scam.

Josh: Under?

Tommy: Well, under, like he, it's not the right word, a scam that someone had tried on him. So yeah, they were fishing for him to get fucked up and to send over some money. He got a text message on his phone that was like, "Hi D," and then the full last name. 'Your amount of this is blah blah blah, it needs to be paid now, link,' which is obviously dodgy. But then he was telling me how they got his name because it's like initial and then full name. Yeah, this is where the PID game came in. So we're sitting there, I'm like, 'Fuck, this is amazing. So you're telling me that if I just give you any phone number, you could tell me the full name of that person?' So what I did was I went into my phone and I looked at recent calls and I went through to find just a random number that I didn't know that it wasn't saved in my phone. I was like, fuck, okay, try this one. So I tried a few, one was like no PayID, so they hadn't activated it. I gave him one and it came back and he's like, Dean Marsh. I was like, who the fuck is Dean Marsh? So this was a number in my phone that I didn't save and I looked it up, turned out it was the air conditioner guy that gave us, air conditioning guy the installation guy that gave us a great quote that we didn't go with.

Josh: Well, we haven't gone with any. That's why I'm sweating at the moment. We've decided to prioritise gear purchases over aircon.

Tommy: So this is perfect. My exploitation of this sort of openness— he called it social engineering.

Josh: Yeah, I've got a whole book on it, and he was—

Tommy: yeah, he's like, this is social engineering. You can find and like find out someone's full name based on their mobile number. Through PayID. So like, they're going to shut that down 100%, you would think, but that's how that scam happened. So they're— he's like, this is how they got my full name. They've just gone through it. Like, you could literally go 0438 282 644.

Josh: Is that your number?

Tommy: I don't know whose number that is, sorry about that. We could find out that number, who owns that, or who's connected their PayID to that, who's connected PayID, which you only connect your real name because it's through a bank. So you can fully find someone's prank calling you off a number that you don't know.

Josh: When does that happen? Like, how often do you get prank called by—

Tommy: Mate, if you're 15 and you're watching this, I got prank called a fuckload when I was a kid.

Josh: But there's services that you can get that spoof, so you can put in a phone number.

Tommy: So obviously not for all of these, but I love it.

Josh: Like, if you—

Tommy: because I know you're a bit paranoid about who the fuck's this. If they haven't left a message, you're never going to know who it is.

Josh: I'd never get calls nowadays.

Tommy: Yeah, it's a bit different. I mean, Yeah, and so you could easily call, you could easily just go through your phone, just go cheque this out, PayID.

Josh: The visual voicemail I love. Yeah. I moved to Telstra, which is like an Australian telco, which is telecommunications company, which is where your phones are from. I don't know if telco is a thing in the States. Would they say telco? We shorten everything here in Australia.

Tommy: Telco, you're telco.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: Maybe.

Josh: Anyway, so I've got the visual voicemail so I can press the person's name and it will come up.

Tommy: You're talking about it's like the newest invention.

Josh: I know, invention on it, but it makes it so much easier rather than having to call the fucking— you have one new voicemail.

Tommy: How that is even still a thing, like how people, how other phone companies haven't done that. Yeah, it's— so anyway, that's a game if you want to work out who the fuck's calling you.

Josh: I think they'll pay ID. I reckon that will eventually go away. So they would just be able to do it where it's like they give you initials maybe? Do they have to give all those details?

Tommy: Dean, who was telling me about this, he's like, yeah, so for yours you can say—

Josh: Wasn't Dean also the name of our electrician?

Tommy: Yes, it was.

Josh: Okay.

Tommy: Fucking onto it. So Dean told me—

Josh: Actually, was he an electrician?

Tommy: Well, what did we— They're fridge mechanics essentially, I think. Pretty sure they're a fridge mechanic. So a fridge— They have to wire shit, so they do have some sort of tech.

Josh: So an aircon person can also— They also specialise specialises in fridges.

Tommy: They could fix fridges. Some, yeah, a lot of fridge mechanics install air conditioning units.

Josh: Okay.

Tommy: It's their trade. You become a fridge mechanic, you're dealing with refrigerated devices.

Josh: Okay.

Tommy: Anyway, so yeah, he told me that, not on mine, but some of them tell you the bank account that you're with.

Josh: So then they go, another level of detail.

Tommy: Hi Tommy Jacket, you are with ING and this is overdue right now.

Josh: Interesting.

Tommy: Be careful if you're getting those text messages.

Josh: We're just talking before we start the show, we were doing all the whiteboarding and one of the things we've been bringing up is the concern that when we do video it's all very light.

Tommy: I think it's— we want to have fun.

Josh: It's all a bit of banter, just the boys having a bit of banter.

Tommy: Do you think it's something to do with the lights?

Josh: Well, the thing is I can't do more than one thing at a time, so the idea— like the light flickered before, it was enough to derail the whole show.

Tommy: I was ready to say, '97, let's start again.' I'm glad this is on record because Josh also once said that he thinks that he could live cut this show with a board in front of us that has buttons.

Josh: I think I fucking could.

Tommy: I could say, 'If you're 97, can you just yell out what you think? Yes or no?' No chance. No chance, he said. No chance. And I just don't want it to be the case.

Josh: I think I could easily like flick wide, close up, like it would just become intuitive, second nature maybe. But the At the detriment of 50 episodes that we don't just want to do a show where the only thing we discover each episode is whether camels have water in their humps.

Tommy: Which they don't.

Josh: It's fat. It's fat. And so how can we make sure that we're still covering the deep topics?

Tommy: Yeah, well, I think this show is very much about what's going on in our lives. And so Which I mean, we're bringing that to the table, but you, we, yeah, I don't know. Do you have the answer?

Josh: No.

Tommy: No.

Josh: That's why it was a bit of a letdown. No, but we were on Friday, we're doing the show and we had a blow up before the show and you said, let's talk about it. And I just wasn't ready to talk about it at that point. You were saying that I—

Tommy: Needs a couple of days to mourn.

Josh: Yeah, well, no, it was just like, I feel like I love talking about things retrospectively. Retrospectively or retroactively? Retrospectively.

Tommy: You're asking a guy with an IQ of 4.

Josh: It's more than that. But no, so retrospectively.

Tommy: Fuck, he's good to me.

Josh: So yeah, no, but having time to deconstruct.

Tommy: I just will say about, I mean, the way we felt going into the show, I get it that it's not a great time to talk about something, But I think there's a potential skill in just using, like pushing down the emotion to just look at it from a, like, what do you reckon about that? It's so hard. It's easy to say, hard to fucking control your actual emotions inside.

Josh: Well, the thing is that my concern was that it was just gonna become a show of us fighting, like just having a full blow up, which would have made great content.

Tommy: Yeah, which you're all about.

Josh: So that's the whole thing, the big criticism that I think I've had in my life, which is part of the reason— my eyes twitching from all that caffeine— part of the reason why I think I've gotten off social media is because people have said to me in my life, not everything has to be for content. And so that is part of it where it's like, that's some of the discussions that we've had, is like, I am trying to make everything, like, everything content all the time, which can be super draining.

Tommy: Which I think there's also a— I'm not saying for you— a protection mechanism in making stuff all for content? Yeah.

Josh: Well, it takes off the— it's a lens which I can see everything. So I can look at my Nana's funeral and say, "All for content, streaming it." Or like, "Let me see what funny things are happening," 'cause that's what I'm doing all the time anyway. And so it becomes a default. Doing the opposite, I'd feel like I was being disingenuous. If that makes sense.

Tommy: It's the social media of life.

Josh: Like we lead with the best or we lead with something that entertains or, but what about, so what I've changed it to is like writing stuff down where it's like, oh, this thing happened. Like when that lady was crying, when I was in the car and I could see her crying, like I wrote down like the dialogue of what happened.

Tommy: Interesting. That's a coping mechanism. So you're saying retrospectively talking about something is how you need to do it?

Josh: Well, I think that what I'm trying to work out is how much, like how much of deep conversations is productive? You know, like, you know, there's certain friends that you'll hang out with and they love going deep and it almost feels like they can't actually just chill the fuck out every time it's deep.

Tommy: Yeah, I guess think about what kind of a person that is and does, do you wanna be around them as a person? And then it's probably a good filter. Like, 'cause if I was a piece of shit and I identified being a piece of shit, I don't wanna be around piece of shits. And so there is traits in me that I think everyone has some trait that you wouldn't wanna be around that person.

Josh: Do you think, I think that what I learned from the weekend was I was like, you know what? I think that we both had the same feeling, which was we don't need to talk about, like we're showing in our actions that we're changing and then we're doing the things that the other person been said and we're all like, we're both bringing the energy that we want rather than I think normally I'm like, well, we're only going to feel good once we've spoken about it. But then if you speak 4 hours on fucking talking about it, like talking about it isn't going to be the fucking solution. The solution is just going to be in doing the thing that we're meant to be doing.

Tommy: Making some change. I mean, yeah, it's—

Josh: What do you think?

Tommy: If we're talking about our exchange.

Josh: So our specific exchange, how would you describe it?

Tommy: Very much delving deep into layered thinking about stuff.

Josh: 'Cause you always say to me, like I'll start to go onto what could only be described as a verbal rampage.

Tommy: Yeah.

Josh: And you say, you say— That's a good way of describing it. You're layering, you start yelling, you're layering.

Tommy: Yeah. You're layering.

Josh: No, stacking is my latest.

Tommy: Stacking.

Josh: And Bree, after, because Bree was there, she was just working from the office, and she said, do you think it's good for Mason to have to see you doing that all the time? I'm like, Mr. 97's fine, he's all good, this is good for him, he's getting an insight into interpersonal relationships.

Tommy: Totally. And I said to Mr. 97, do you and your mates speak like this, or do you delve into this kind of thinking with your mates? Not at all.

Josh: Yeah, which, which I don't know, I don't do it, I don't do it with all my mates, and that's So am I a bit fucked up, bit tweaked.

Tommy: 'Cause it's okay.

Josh: I'm okay with being like, I was reading that Mark Maron book and I could relate to a lot of the things where it's like, I can see this as negative. There's a point where the thing that drives me, the ambition and all that sort of thing is also like a negative trait. And you can have ambition without being a nutcase.

Tommy: Here's the fucked up bit. I think it would slow you down to be actively trying to not layer or not think about things. That's not to say that you need to sort of lay those out every moment. Vice versa for me, it slows me down analysing and layering. It's like, it's so cognitively demanding and tiresome. So yeah, I feel it. It fucking exhausts me because The other thought from your side, which I could imagine is you are actually thinking something deeper than what you're thinking. So I react a certain way or say something. It's like, no, well, if we took it back like this, this, and this, this, and this, maybe, and probably, 'cause you're like, it is what it is.

Josh: I'm just acting like, I'm just reacting because that's the thing. But I'm saying, no, you're reacting because you were fucking hit as a kid. Like that's like, I go like super deep.

Tommy: Look, it was fucking once with a bass pro.

Josh: But I do wonder how, so this is where I think I've gone wrong in my thinking maybe, or where it hasn't served me. I heard a quote a while ago, which is thoughts aren't facts, right? Which is true. So then what I did was I was like, okay, thoughts aren't facts.

Tommy: Unless I think you're a fuckwit.

Josh: But so this is the thing, so I was like, well, thoughts aren't facts. So when do they become facts? And so what I started doing was I'm like, okay, rather than when you do something and it pisses me off, I say, thoughts aren't facts. This is just how you feel. This isn't Tommy, this is actually you. And so, but what I do is I put it into a file that I call thoughts. And then when the file is big enough, I'm like, you know what? I've connected all the dots and it turns out this is a fucking fact. I fucking drop the file and I say, we're gonna go through this one by one. Yeah. And I'm gonna show— and you're like, but you never said that was a problem. Well, that was a thought, and now I've actually come to the conclusion that it's all come together and it is a fact.

Tommy: Yeah, yeah, corroborative evidence.

Josh: But do you see that? Like, does that make sense?

Tommy: Yeah, 100%. But I think you're lying to yourself that their thoughts aren't facts, because if you're willing to bring them back in—

Josh: But so how do I— that— because the problem is that if If every time you pissed me off or said something, because I'd piss you off 100 times a day, but the thing is, it's like you realise that it's like there's a few answers to if someone pisses you off. That's just Josh, that's his personality. And 'cause that's the other thing is what I find really helpful is when Bree's had like a bad day at work, my favourite thing to do is I go, okay, I think like based on what you're saying, I think you should quit. And then I say like, let's, like I'm gonna fully support you, let's do it. Resign tomorrow. And she's like, oh no, no, no, like I don't wanna quit. I'm like, no, I think like based on how unhappy you are, you should quit. And then she said, no, why? I like it because of this, this, this. And Bree was doing a bit of that reverse psychology over the weekend, which was like, oh, well, what if you and Tommy didn't do stuff? Well, I wanna do stuff with Tommy because of this, this, this, and this.

Tommy: And she goes, oh, she's reversed it.

Josh: So she reversed it or she wants us out. She's trying to break us up. And so, but it was good because she's like, yeah, see, so there's all these things. It's all in the way that you frame everything. You could frame things in like, Josh is fucking nutcase. He's constantly stacking. It's exhausting. I don't know based on the day what we're gonna get, but also that's the thing that fucking moves us a little bit forward. And then you're bringing in other elements, which is the reality stuff. Or when I'm saying, let's go out and do this bit. You're like, but is that? You're even bringing in my thinking that wasn't my thing. Where I've forgotten. So I'll say, let's go out and do this straight on the street thing. But you're like, but you said last week that you wanna do this. I'm like, yeah, that's a good point.

Tommy: Yeah, I think your approach of that sort of throwing stuff out there, you as a person, I think I pick up on people's inconsistencies. You said that one week and now you're not saying that, but I don't even, I don't store it.

Josh: It's not a file.

Tommy: But I think a takeaway is not to judge someone's way of thinking. It's just not your own. And so I, like I would be tired living in your head if I was me with that.

Josh: But you sort of do now.

Tommy: No, but I think that's why I need to shut it. I do shut it out at some point because I'm like, if I actually— I could go, I could be offended. I'm not that easily offended when you bring a whole lot of shit to me. But if I actually think about how you've stacked it up and it's almost like you're keeping stuff from somebody. So this is how I would, that's how I would think. But I'm not, because I'm like, I'm like, "Fuckin', it's too much." We'll like, yeah.

Josh: So what is the approach? How do I, 'cause what you were saying was when you, Josh, you should just fuckin' bring this, like you're bringing up stuff that happened 6 weeks ago. And if I'd known I would have shifted, but I was like, it wasn't a problem 6 weeks ago. It's only a problem because now, or part of it is this, I'm running on a certain operating system where it's like I'm giving people the benefit of the doubt with things or it's like, you know what, you're, say for like, say using an example of when you arrive into work, right? Imagine like you're someone who loves getting in early to work. This is an example of us, this is a random example. Imagine you always get into work at 8:30 or whatever it is and the person's always running late or that you didn't even say what time you're getting in, They just get in at fucking 10 o'clock or whatever. Then that fucker who's the 10 o'clock guy gets in early one day and then you get in at 8:35 or whatever. And that guy says, mate, running a little late, geez, you're fucking taking your time today. The thing is the operating system, which the 8:30 guy, the normal 8:30 guy was like, I've got empathy for that guy going in at 10 o'clock. So I'm not going to care. But now that fucker, the guy who's always late, thinks it's okay to bring it up. And then it's like, oh, okay, if we're running on that operating system, you piece of shit, these are all the times that you didn't do the thing that you were gonna say.

Tommy: I think you don't need to match someone just in general. I don't think you need to meet someone with how they're meeting you. Because if you met them in a way, like I think if we have a choice as humans to decide on which decision we make or which choice or which way of approaching something, more productive to approach it with, "He's outrageous." Yeah. Unless it's a big thing.

Josh: But do you think, I wonder if that like, I feel like that's dismissive or it's like, it's not allowing it to actually—

Tommy: Hard thing is if something true, that's why I say, don't think like me, I can't think like you because I don't—

Josh: So when do we push versus when do we, so you have it, so say you bring up a, you brought up a video idea this morning, I didn't think that it was the best thing for you to do. It was annoying for me because I'm like, this is playing into the character that I don't wanna be, which is telling you that I don't fucking think it's the best idea. And so do I in that moment just say, yes, let's do it?

Tommy: Well, I think if there's no good ideas, it's like it could get to a good idea.

Josh: So that's like controlling. It's like working out When is it someone else's journey versus like when are you—

Tommy: Yeah, I'm learning it a lot with my wife about her journey that she's on and the one I clearly see that she could go down. I can't tell her that, but I can encourage her and talk with her through things. So it's an interesting one. It's supporting a creative, especially creative exploring the idea. What do you think? Like without even, being the coach, without being—

Josh: Well, 'cause you were sort of, I think on Friday I was talking about like, oh, like I've coached you to this point. Like I feel like there's moments where I'm coaching to the point and then we fuck it. Like we get to that point and it becomes the outcome. And then I'm like, oh, but the reason you came to it was because of X, Y, and Z, but you only see the outcome. You see the outcomes like I've arrived to this. I'm like, yeah, but like, your thinking has been informed by this, this, and this. I think part of it is removing ego and being like, it's like, I'm happy, it's getting the outcome that we want.

Tommy: We're getting wrapped up by the—

Josh: saying that the battery's running low, so we're gonna— we better head. It's The Daily Talk Show, everyone. We'll get to your emails, uh, tomorrow. Send them hi@thedailytalkshow.com. I will say tomorrow. See you guys.