Creative block

Josh: Wait a minute. Crossface, the Daily Talk Show, a conversation sometimes worth recording with Josh Janson and Tommy Jackett.

Tommy: It's a Daily Talk Show episode 162.

Josh: Tommy Jackett, what is crackalackin'? You've called me on a new number.

Tommy: Uh, Slovenia number.

Josh: It was, it was a successful hunt for a SIM card, which has become your life every other day.

Tommy: Yeah, I'm, uh, I've got more SIM cards than a drug dealer. Uh, congratulations on, uh, getting a new video out on your YouTube channel.

Josh: Oh yeah, that's a, that's a good one. That's a, um, it's a good one. It's a good one.

Tommy: Well, I didn't think JJ would have any content, and he's, uh, he's He's thrown up a topic.

Josh: It's, well, you become quite distant from, depends. I think I've had this weird thing at the moment where I, um, I feel quite, uh, removed from some of the stuff I do because we're trying to do so much. And so it's like some of our episodes, you feel, you don't really feel anything about anything about them.

Tommy: Feeling a bit numb.

Josh: You feel a bit numb because you're moving on. But I guess it's— but what I have actually been feeling at the moment, which I first want to get your thoughts on, creative blocks. What do you think? Like, what's your take before I kind of— because I've had a bit of thinking about this recently.

Tommy: I think it's a— the hard thing is that I think that they're definitely real. They're completely— I think creativity relies on the mind. And so, what I think that it sort of comes hand in hand with a bunch of other stuff as well. So, for me, I think that even, you know, creatively at the moment, like there's a creative block, which is the almost our unwillingness to get in the state that we need to be in to be creative. And, uh, you know, I definitely feel like I've, um, been in that place. And I think that the best way to get out of a creative block, um, is to do something, to make something, to create, which, um, I think is counter to some of the, um, you know, the feedback or the advice which is, you know, remove yourself from the thing. What do you think?

Josh: Yeah, totally. Well, yeah, I've kind of felt like I— if in terms of my client work that I've been doing, no problem. I feel like I've been nailing it and doing some really creative and well-made, uh, and executed, you know, projects. But then when it's come to my personal stuff outside of what we do every single weekday on this show, which takes a fair bit of effort, um, in terms of brain power. We show up, I think. I don't think— I don't feel like it's effort to show up and do this with you, uh, as much as I used to in the early days, because it's now just become our habit. But it definitely does zap, you know, some creative power, I guess, from you if you're looking at it as like a— you've got a bank of X amount. But then, yeah, just with with my other stuff, with my personal videos, I went down this slippery slope and I posted up a video for the first time in a little while. Um, but it's this— I think you can get it, it can. So what I basically have come to the other side is the, the way I was looking at a creative block and what I felt, I was thinking, that is bullshit. Like, the block is bullshit. And because you do, you go down this hole of feeling like you're— you could either go, I've got a creative block, and then you start looking at excuses as to why, or why it's happening.

Tommy: And what is a creative block, do you think? What is it to you?

Josh: It's— for me, the way it sort of comes out is like this. I feel almost like paralysed in my ability to create. And I 100% know that I can and I could create, but it becomes this thing where I think it gets worse as you don't act on it. And so I've been chipping away on a bunch of videos, but the thing that— the spiral that you go down is like, I started getting more critical and I started looking at things. And so what I've come to the other side is I put out a video yesterday and it's really, really beautifully shot and, you know, there's lots of things, but I just went down this slippery slope of questioning my ability. And it's like classic creative person, just like, I'm not, you know, I'm not good enough. Not that specific saying, but essentially it's sort of like saying that, like, oh, this, the storey's not good enough. And you start criticising every little element of it. But if you—

Tommy: it's a resistance.

Josh: Yeah, it's all this resistance within you to do the thing of put it out, which it's, it's, yeah, it's, it's this torturous endeavour that I feel like I'm on, but I feel like putting out things that aren't perfect is where it is the win, because I think half— like, I there would be so many people out there that are creating stuff and not putting it out because it's not good enough. And my battle that I have is with stuff not, not being right and me then not wanting to put it out. And I don't want to call it perfectionist, but it's like the challenge for most people is actually just getting something to a place, making the thing, and then just getting rid of it, putting it out there. And so for us, you messaged me yesterday about the early days of this podcast, and in some of the episodes I forgot the name of the podcast that we'd even created.

Tommy: Well, there's a reason why I'm the one that intros the show now. It's easier that way.

Josh: No, I remember the name of the show, but there was— I had someone comment on one of my videos, on the video yesterday.

Tommy: Yeah, yeah.

Josh: And it's so funny, it's like people are just waiting in the corners to just press your buttons. And, um, or they're not, or you're just totally thinking. So the comment was like, um, oh, you finally did post. Finally, it's a miracle that you've posted or something. Yeah, I was like, fuck it, triggered. I'm so triggered by that. I'm not in a bad way. It's like, yeah, no, you're totally right. But it's a weird, it's a weird battle. That guy Dan Mace put out a video where he was like talking about a creative block or something that he had. And I find that I just become like numb. I just want to watch Netflix. It's this weird thing. Do you, have you felt, have you had this?

Tommy: I think on this trip it's been the weirdest experience of highs and lows, like the the happiest moments and then also the feeling of not being fulfilled creatively in the sense of, I think that what I've come to realise is that potentially the only time my mind isn't thinking about a million things at once is when I'm editing. When I'm editing, like I only thought about this um, yesterday. When I'm editing, what I'm doing is I'm connecting dots. I'm like looking along a storey and I'm finding— and I'm saying, okay, this could go with this, and maybe I could bring this with that. And when I— when I'm not in front of an edit suite, when I'm just in the real world, I'm doing that with everything. I'm connecting dots with everything. And especially when I'm not editing, I think that it can be destructive as well, where it turns into overthinking and then thinking, oh, like just rabbit holes. Like we had, you and I spoke for an hour and a half before you went to bed last night. Did you dream about me from all those conversations?

Josh: I dreamt about someone. I can't remember now. It wasn't you, though. So.

Tommy: That's okay, sucked in. But the, um, no, but I, I, um, just going down rabbit holes, I think when I've got, um, creative, um, uh, blocks. I remember hearing something around what, um, procrastination is, uh, and what it is is it's around when we do work, um You know, we like working, we— and we don't like getting stuck, right? And a creative block is essentially getting stuck. And then what we try and do is we find some other thing to do to get unstuck. And so for me, I can go down these crazy rabbit holes where I did maybe 5 hours of research after we spoke today on studio setups. Yeah. Yeah, I've got— so, and so I've got like all— like I went through and looking at different prices and configurations and YouTube review, like reviews on stuff. And the reality is that I've got a, um, deadline for an edit that I'm working on, which I'm really loving. And, um, you know, the last 3 hours before we started recording this, I've just been sort of smashing it out because I've told a, you know, a client that I'm going to have it done for them. Yeah, it's a, it's a constant battle. And Bree, you can— I can see the frustration with Bree because we've been— she's been listening to a podcast with what's her name? Gretchen? Gretchen Rubin. And she's a— she's got a book. She's got like these different categories that you can be in. So you could be an Upholder or a Rebel and all these different— an Obliger, all these different, uh, a Questioner, all these different categories that you could fit under. And I think that I fit under the, uh, Rebel slash Obliger. So I, um, when it comes to Yeah, like I'm pretty rebellious. I like sort of doing things on my own timeline, but I'm also an obliger in the sense of if I've told someone that I'm going to deliver them something, like the amount of pain that I feel. Yeah. Trying to, like, I need to make that happen.

Josh: Oh, I'm very similar. But I think about the feelings I have now. And then the feelings, the feeling that it gives me once I actually put it out. So the reward for me is like mostly in just the completion of something and pressing send or putting it out on something. Cause it doesn't go away. Like I don't think, I think it's this thought that people have and maybe it's just me. Tell me if you do, but I look at people who are successful or have big channels or, you know. Doing well online, I think, oh, they must have it all sorted out, right? But then I, but then I think about myself and I see that it, it doesn't really change whether I'm having the success in the videos that I'm putting out or I'm not. It's like I still feel this pain, but I, it's like I'm pushing through it. It's like I'm a fucking sicko. I think creatives are sickos.

Tommy: I think it's the exact same probably feeling that people get when they go for a run. And for people who aren't necessarily— don't necessarily call themselves creative or can't relate to this, maybe what they can relate to is being, you know, going for a run every day and then maybe going on holiday for 2 weeks, not running, and then going on that first run, you know, like the going out and get— and the feeling, the resistance that you feel when you, you know, before you do it versus when you do it. Um, but, but I think that the, the quote that I love is that, uh, time is the fuel of fear. So with all of these creative projects, if you think about, you know, the awesome video you put up yesterday on your YouTube channel, um, you know, you, you know filmed that video months ago. And so, the amount of agony that you and fear that you felt was so much greater because you didn't just do it then and there. You didn't get it done the week of. And so, you've managed to drag out the pain without necessarily the reward. And I think that that's why I love working in sprints. If a client wants a job, done, I want to be able to say, okay, well, let's film it tomorrow and let me edit it next week or this week. Yeah, that's how I love working.

Josh: Yeah, I totally agree. There's something about, like, I've even thought about, like, say if I haven't filmed, say if I haven't got a video to film today, I'm like, oh, what can I use of what I've got from, you know, a while ago that I could create into something to put out? And I feel that, that, that feels really painful. And the, and what's good about this show is like, you know, we record and we put it out regardless of how good it is.

Tommy: It's definitely, it's a learning process because I think that maybe the highs and the lows that I've been experiencing while I'm away has been connected to the podcast. If I have a good show especially when we're doing the shows, you know, in my morning. If we have a good show, I feel great all day. If we don't have a good show, I'm thinking about it, I'm deconstructing it, I'm thinking about, you know, like, I think we've probably had, uh, I'm trying to think, there was a one show that we were recording when I was in Poland where I was just like, I don't know if we can fucking use this one. I think that's just go to a, um, one of the pre-recorded, and we, we got through it. But like, that's real tension, that's real resistance, that's real like getting pissed off and just being like, I can't be fucked today.

Josh: Yeah, yeah. Well, maybe it's like, so you see, your analysis is sometimes how I feel about the show changes my, you know, how I'm, how I feel about life in this present moment. It's like, maybe it, maybe it isn't reflective though. Cause sometimes it's not true. We feel like we could have a show where we're arguing with each other. People actually like that. Or people like seeing opposing views on things and that's good for them. So it's, it's this weird thing. It's like what, what we're experiencing, what other people experiencing. And that's across the board, the pain that goes into a painting. For an artist, and then people love it, but they were severely depressed at the time that they created that painting. Or, you know, music.

Tommy: Yeah, I mean, that's the thing. It's like the saddest song— like, I enjoy listening to songs that are sad. Or you think about the, um, pain that, you know, an artist might go through writing a certain song or having an experience But it's a, um, I think that it's probably something that more and more people are going to feel, especially as we're all becoming mini content creators. Um, yeah, Michelle from, um, the Shameless podcast, she, she wrote a blog post about, um, her, her realising how she'd been painting sort of her Instagram as being sort of this positive, how good's my life, and created this blog post which talked about some of the struggles. But I think that the challenge with it is that we're— I think that we want to be more honest. There's a desire to be more honest, but I wonder whether we're ready as a society to be honest, because I know that if I see people being too negative on social media, that's also a bit of a turn-off.

Josh: Yeah. And so are you thinking about you sharing this stuff, or if you were to share not negative things but sharing the lows as well as the highs? Is that what you're saying?

Tommy: I think that the hard thing is that, to your point, if there's not a single truth, if maybe the thing that we're experiencing isn't actually the truth and it's just the experience we're having right now, Does it make sense to then be posting it online? Is it, is it worth communicating it externally if we're not even sure around what the truth of this situation is or how you feel? And so for me, it feels like if you're feeling a certain— if you're feeling negative and you post on social media, hey, I'm feeling this way, I'm negative right now, do you think that that's going to lead to a positive outcome or a negative outcome?

Josh: Well, that you can't argue with someone's feelings because that's a fact for them in the moment. It's like someone told me, it's like, you know, if you're in an argument or you're with the boss or something, I remember this years ago, it's like, use the term feelings. This is making me feel this way because they're not going to go, no, it's not.

Tommy: I feel like a fuckwit.

Josh: No. Well, no, I'm not. Well, it's my feeling, so don't fucking argue with it, you fuckwit.

Tommy: It's a, um, have you ever done sort of negative posts online?

Josh: Nah, I mean, I'm not just about posting great stuff like, hey, look at me, I'm so happy. I don't act, it's not that. I just I just have chosen not to put up things that are darker. I don't know. Yeah, I'm not a great example.

Tommy: I'm just like, for example, problem, like how do we— But you are an example, right? This is the thing. It's like if we're all taking a part of our lives and putting it online and then I guess, and people are then judging themselves against that. Yeah.

Josh: You know, I think I've got it. This, it's about the platform for me. So it's about the vehicle and the vehicle for me to share any of that stuff is a long-form podcast because I'm not, it would take me days to write some kind of post to put out on Facebook and it wouldn't even be the way I'd ever do something where I'd share some feelings.

Tommy: Well, it's just so permanent. Like for me, like, the, uh, putting an ad in the world.

Josh: You should have thought that before you just posted about how you had a taco on Saturday night in 2008. Bree and I are going to get tacos.

Tommy: Are you reading that somewhere? Because I'm sure I would have done that.

Josh: No, just say the most generic thing and put it as a status. And Josh did it in 2007.

Tommy: But there's definitely a, um, I've, I've had, I've definitely had the desire since being away where I'm like, maybe social media isn't for me. Maybe, um, uh, Jason Fox, um, Dr. Jason Fox, who we've had on the podcast, did this great, uh, email where he sort of listed his thoughts on social media. And, um, yeah, I think that there is, uh, I've— I'm spending way less time on— I rarely go on Facebook now. I would much prefer to not have to use Messenger on Facebook at all. I'd love to have like a personal autoresponder just to tell people, hey, I don't cheque this, send me an email. But I, yeah, I've definitely had thoughts of late where I'm like, I don't know if I'm actually getting much out of posting. And I don't know whether other people are getting stuff out of it.

Josh: Out of you posting?

Tommy: Yeah, or out of just like, I don't know, like, I mean, how do you feel when you scroll on Instagram?

Josh: Oh yeah, pretty, pretty numb, pretty, yeah, thoughtless. I just, it's probably I'm doing it in a time where I'm just wanting to sort of zone out, which is, you know, you're like a zombie just scrolling up and not really caring. It's— that's what it's like for me. But what do you think about people who are— say if you were to say you look at Matt D'Avella, who's creating, I guess, thoughtful content, a podcast, videos about really, you know, specific subjects that people are thinking about. Do you think he— do you think if you were doing that model for you and you chose the platforms where you would put out what you're thinking, so it's not just Facebook statuses or Instagram posts, it's more thoughtful, meaningful videos or things that are coming from you, I guess, and that's what you're contributing to the—

Tommy: right. So Yes, you might be contributing to it, but is— I wonder, one, whether it resonates, you know, with, with people, and two, like, whether the algorithms are designed to actually prioritise that type of content. You know, what sort of stuff is Instagram actually showing people? And yeah, I just, I don't know. I think that, like, for me, this is why I do love the podcast. I love the idea that people can just subscribe. There's no sort of meddling with it from any other platform. Because, you know, I read a, um, a quote that's going to be in the, the next issue of Off Screen Magazine, which is, um, uh, edited by my friend Kai Braak. And he, uh, he posted— did this post, and it basically said, uh, what we read, what we consume, uh, you know, the media that we consume basically determines how we think, what we think about. And, um, if that's the case, then we really need to be thinking about the algorithms around Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, because if they're controlling what we consume, they're controlling what we think.

Josh: Yeah, yeah, I do like that. I think about—

Tommy: are you scrolling on Instagram right now? It's like, you just liked my post, I appreciate it.

Josh: I was just saying I'm having tacos for lunch today, and, uh, it's a real 2018 progressive post. Uh, no, you're right. I think also what I feel about this stuff is What I, what I say, you know, I love making videos and it's probably the thing that I like most out of everything. It's the most painful, it's the most rewarding. I find the most pleasure in it. But then there's this, there's this reality of where you'll end up, what will end up working for you. So if it's, say, could be the podcast for us, where it's like the podcast, I do it because it's enjoyable. It's not, it's not the thing that I love most, uh, in this world. Yeah, but it's, but it's definitely something that I, I never have feelings of, I don't want to do this, this isn't something for me. So then it's like you end up doing something that isn't, it's not the main thing.

Tommy: Well, I think that that's the, that's an interesting thing with this podcast is it's like I don't feel Like the thing that stretched, like, I think that if we were doing this as a weekly show, I don't know if we would have maintained it because the thing that's created, I think that you actually need resistance to be creative. And so, when something's too easy, I don't think that the resistance there. And then, sometimes we commit to too many things or we take on a project that's too big and the resistance is so strong. That it's hard for— it's paralyzing. I think that that's when things like creative block happens. So I think that for us, if we find this really easy, um, but I think that what we've been able to do is we've found tension and resistance through doing— having to do this remotely. Like, you and I being in different countries right now has created so much more resistance than it would be if we were just in a room together, which is then, I think, actually kept it going at a nice pace.

Josh: Yeah, definitely. It's, I actually find that the challenge, right? So it's not, you move past the showing up to actually talk, to then be, okay, the challenge now is just to show up. The challenge is to get up in the morning, 5:30 AM, and get in the car when it's freezing, and talk to this asshole who's, you know, in summer in Europe. It really stings. And that's, you know, I'm getting through this.

Tommy: Yeah. I mean, no, but there is like, there's a bit of truth there, which is like, it's not always. I think that the interesting part of it too, and this is what happens with social media, is like you're, we're commoditizing ourselves or our mood or our ability to have conversations.. And I think like Hamish describes it with him and Andy is like they weaponized their friendship. And by doing that, there's compromises that are made within the friendship. It's not the same as just a normal friendship. And so, I think that that's interesting. But I think that the big question that I ask myself, which goes down the big rabbit hole, especially when I have a creative block is I ask, what's all this for?

Josh: I think that would, that would take me down a whole other rabbit hole, because then you almost have this out clause of going, well, a video for YouTube, it doesn't really mean anything in the scheme of things, but then it's in the little nuances of the process, the struggle, the reward, and the creative output that actually is the reward. And that's maybe where it's worth it. But, but what, what, who do I care, what do I care about someone writing a comment on a video? Not, I don't really give a shit. It's not changing my world. I've actually, I've liked going.

Tommy: But it sparks the question, right? It's the same thing that You know, our mate mentioning that, ah, maybe it got like the podcast got a bit boring, like that, just planting that seed. Even though, you know, as creatives, as you create more and more work, you're able to identify stuff. But I think that when there's a level of truth, or when it— I think the buttons are the ones that are already activated within our minds. So you're already thinking about I said I was going to do 100 videos this year. I'm not going to reach 100 videos, but I still— that doesn't mean all or nothing. I still want to post. And so you post this video and then someone calls you out for not posting that much, and it, it triggers that button. And so, um, I think that it's definitely, um, you know, I think the reality is that you know, most people online who are commenting are just being reactive and they're not empathising to the actual process of making. And it's as much about them and their frustration of not understanding why they can't show up every day. And, um, you know, that comes out in a comment to you. Yeah.

Josh: I think when you have these conversations and you, and you see people trying to give advice on this stuff, um, online, it's like, it can be so frustrating, you know. Here's the, um, when people are trying to sell a process to, uh, have success in a space like video or podcasting, it's like there's such a stench of bullshit and a stench of you, you don't know what's right for everybody. You can only in this space where it's like, it is so new, all of this, all of these creative endeavours and these platforms, it's all so new in the scheme of things. And so no one really has an idea, but if you buy my thing is my ebook. It's only $9.95 and it's the 10 Steps for Success as a Podcaster. No, I'm joking.

Tommy: No, but I think the thing is that it's a, um, whilst the platforms are new, the experiences are human. What we're talking about there, it's like the human condition, and it actually, you know, brings up a much bigger question than what is it to be human. And the thing is, I've been thinking about this a lot lately, but, um, a lot of people in our life that we care about are going to die, um, and we're going to be going to their funerals, and there's going to be hard phone calls, hard conversations, you know, and that's all still to come. And that's, that's a guarantee. And so I think that when there's the guarantee that there's, um, we're going to experience that in our life. The question then isn't how do I avoid it, but it becomes how do I cope with it, how do I turn it into art, how do I turn it into a productive life. And, um, you know, that's the sort of stuff that I think that I've been thinking about, is it's like, okay, this is God, let's let's have acceptance in this shit's going to happen. And now what? What do we do now? Hmm.

Josh: Yeah, it's deep and dark.

Tommy: It's a little bit dark, isn't it? Everyone's listening in their cars, fucking hearing about everyone around them going to die. But, um, it's real.

Josh: Here's Josh travelling Europe, could be having the time of his life, but he's just gone so dark.

Tommy: That's how I roll. It's good.

Josh: I like these conversations because it's— I definitely don't have shit figured out. Yeah, I'm figuring shit out, but that's what life is, a constant figuring of shit out.

Tommy: Yeah. And we don't have that sense of much control. We don't even have much control of it too. Like, I think that the— once we accept the fact that shit's going to happen no matter what, then I think it changes things as well.

Josh: Yeah, yeah, cool.

Tommy: It's a daily talk show, everyone. That was a, uh, we managed just to fucking riff on one little thing there, all about your bloody YouTube video. People should go watch it.

Josh: Yeah, thanks. It's, uh, thanks, mate. At least put it, at least put a comment on it, Josh.

Tommy: Yeah, Jesus, that's— guys, I gave it a like. Gave it a— did you?

Josh: Because I didn't see that. I don't see the actual— I just— yeah. Mate, the amount I get a message when you've put a video up, mate, can you just go and comment on that, thanks. Yes, and what do I do?

Tommy: I go and comment on it. I think the last one I did was with Jack Post talking about cryptocurrency. So it's been, it's been a while since I've done a post. But, uh, yeah, youtube.com/tommyjackett, cheque out his, uh, his, uh, video. And, uh, yeah, happy Wednesday everyone, and we will see you tomorrow. Feel free to send us an email, hi@thedailytalkshow.com. .com. How do you get out of your, um, creative blocks? And, um, yeah, what— are we completely wrong? Are we being way too fucking negative about stuff? Are we— have we lost the plot? Please send us an email. Have a good one. See you guys.