Cert III in medicine

Tommy: Wait a minute!

Josh: Crossface, the Daily Talk Show, a conversation sometimes worth recording with Josh Janson and Tommy Jackett. It's the Daily Talk Show, episode 157. I love it.

Tommy: I felt it's like I read your mind as soon as you started because you were working out, fuck, fuck, fuck, what episode's this?

Josh: Yeah, and I was even like, I was even wondering, I'm like, am I doing this right? Like, am I doing it in the right order? Am I saying the thing that I normally say?

Tommy: Are you actually questioning whether you're awake or not? Because it's 5:30 in the morning for you, is it?

Josh: Yeah, it's early. Yeah, but no, I think it might— it's not that early actually, it's like 6:30.

Tommy: 6:30.

Josh: No, but the thing is, I I think I'm, you know, I don't want to jinx myself, but this fucking aircon or something, you can hear it in my voice. You know, like after yesterday's show, we were talking and I was a little bit sort of coffee and I was like, I ended up leaving. I'm like, I think I said, I've got to go vomit.

Tommy: Yeah, did you?

Josh: Like I just coughed up heaps. Like I didn't cough up heaps, that sounds gross. I just went and had a shower and was coughing, but there's something in this fucking hotel room. Bri said she thinks it's dusty.

Tommy: Yeah, I'm sure it is, mate. If you got to clean those aircons out, the chance of them coming in, it depends on how— what star hotel room you're staying in. So you're in Turkey right now. What's the, um, yeah, what's the star rating of the hotel you're in?

Josh: I think it's a 4 to a 5 maybe. It's, as I said yesterday's show, we go pretty, like, I like to book somewhere that I sort of know, so, um, it's just easy for the first few days. So we're staying at the Radisson at the moment.

Tommy: They're all over the joint.

Josh: Yeah, yeah. And so that's, it's nice, nice and easy. Bree's very like, um, good at details and stuff, so when we came in she, she was like, I don't know if this is the exact room. So then I ended up calling and being like, hey, is this the room? And they said yes. So like, it's, um, that's one thing, uh, Bree is, is good at. I don't know if we're, um, if I get to annoy the— if, if it starts to annoy the shit out of, um, the people. But it's good to ask questions.

Tommy: As in, you went into a room that you didn't know if it was yours because it was fancy, or like it was better than you thought?

Josh: Uh, No, it was probably like, um, we'd— well, it was a weird one because we— it wasn't like any extra for us to go like the business style room, which got you like business lounge access, which means that you can just get like food and stuff during the day.

Tommy: Yeah.

Josh: In saying that, I don't want that to sort of be our, um, fallback because there's so much good food out and about, so I don't want to be like stuck in a lounge having like little fucking shit. Oh, actually it was really delicious. I had like a heap of Turkish delight.

Tommy: But, um, the classic doesn't want to be seen to be a tourist, eats Turkish delight in Turkey.

Josh: 100%. That's awesome.

Tommy: Was it any better than the Turkish delight in Melbourne?

Josh: Yeah, absolutely. I haven't had that much Turkish delight, so it was good. I feel like you're gonna have to take the reins for this fucking show because I can't believe every time I start talking in here, yeah, it's like I'm taking a big breath of fucking dust.

Tommy: Yeah, well, it sounds like you've got a bit of asthma. I'll give you a Bodhi up— I'll give you a little Bodhi update. Your, um, please do. Your son, well, he was basically your son for a day while I supervised.

Josh: Uh, anyway, so it never goes away.

Tommy: Well, when you get back, he will legitimately be talking. He's now stringing sentences together. When I say sentences, stringing words that form a small part of a sentence. He's like, he now like, what did he say? The woman at daycare reckons that he said, "Mummy, Daddy are working," something like that. And so he's, it's amazing to see how quickly the words are coming out.

Josh: But how is he picking what words, do you think?

Tommy: It's very visual. So, what he sees, he just yells out. So, I'm— As soon as he wakes up, pick him out of the cot and he's pretty much hardly got his eyes open. "What's that?" Pointing at stuff, looks in the ground. "What's that?" That's his favourite. "What's that? What's that?" What's that?

Josh: Yeah. Well, kids are known for like asking lots of questions. It's what you think, like—

Tommy: That's you.

Josh: When he starts ask— Exactly. When he starts asking difficult questions, like, uh, like about the bees and the fucking babies or whatever the fuck it is, bees and the birds. What's your approach gonna be? You're gonna go super graphic? You're gonna go like, what's, what's your tactic?

Tommy: I'm not gonna just pull up an incognito browser and just go, let's get to work. No, Josh, no.

Josh: What is the actual approach? You say like, look, we had sex and that's how you happen.

Tommy: Yeah, see, this is the thing. As a parent, what I'm learning is you, you take what what is on offer at the time. And that's not for quite some time, or at least—

Josh: Are you talking about the sex still? What are we talking about?

Tommy: I thought we were still in the incognito browser. No, you take the conversation, like, what is at hand? The challenge, the challenge that is present, that's the one that you focus on. And you're asking me to focus on a problem down the track, which I can't even explain. I think we're pretty open, like, as in, yeah, we're pretty front foot with this kind of stuff. And I like to think that I'm a cool progressive parent in some respects. So I'll be happy to have conversation with him if it's, um, yeah, if it's— oh, who was telling me? Someone was telling me recently that— oh yeah, so that her daughter's about years, um, maybe grade 4 or 5, and there was a, um, like a, an assembly or whatever you call it, like a congregate. It was like a parent— it was like a parent get-together at the school in the hall, and there was going to be a, um, a thing where they talked about what the kids would be learning in sex ed. So it wasn't even— it was like the pre-class for the parents to get a gauge of what was going to be explored. And, um, The woman that was telling me, she was saying that her husband didn't want to go, didn't want to go, and because it would be all the mothers there. And I was like, fuck that, I would be there front and center, just, all right, what's up? What do you got? Is that all? I don't know. Like, I feel like I'm excited to sort of hear, understand what these people like school teachers and stuff are going to be teaching at that time, because I know for me and what I remember, I did a lot of self-exploring on the internet myself. But, um, it was—

Josh: how old— like, how old's this? Like, what does age of this cover? This is all like primary school type of thing.

Tommy: Yeah, that was primary school, so I'm sure it'd be kind of very much entry level. But, uh, but yeah, so it's a challenge that's ahead of me, but I don't even go there just yet. We've still got Bodhi needing to start talking, then he'll probably start swearing, um, and then we'll have to deal with that. But he's getting to that real toddler age, like you can even, you know, terrible twos. You can— he's 18 months, a little bit older now.

Josh: So he's only heading towards it. So you're still going to experience like worse. Not that he's bad now, but it's going to get bad.

Tommy: You're getting— you get a waft of this, um, Yeah, of the situation. And like last night, he was just losing it while having— like, everything he did, he put a little bit of food in his mouth, he thought it was too hot, spat it out, and everything was just hard. And then so you just gave it to him by— so, and he fed himself, and then he was happy. It's like, so there's no rhyme or reason. Some nights he's just really tired, others he's not. But, um, the update, the storey This is another daycare situation.

Josh: Oh no, he, um, is he bitten someone else or something? Or was he— I can't remember, did he bite someone or someone bite him?

Tommy: No, he got bitten. He choked out the kid though, put him to sleep. No, he didn't. Um, he, he got bitten the other week as well. Side note, um, big little chomp marks. Turned out that he, um, he was playing with his kid's blocks and didn't want to the kid didn't want to share. What a little prick.

Josh: Yeah, could you imagine if someone tried to bite you, like, as an adult? Yeah, like, it's just such a nasty fucking thing to do, isn't it?

Tommy: Yeah, bite someone, bite or spit on someone is disgusting as an adult. Yeah. So anyway, so get to daycare, Bodhi is just like cruising around He sees me, runs towards me, just gets into my arms, and I noticed that he wasn't in what he was wearing when he went to daycare. So you got to take— just to paint the picture, you need to take him a little bag, and in this bag he has a change of clothes, and he was in that change of clothes. And there's a guy that works there, and lovely, lovely dude, he said, oh yeah, Bodhi had a bit of a mishap. I said, what happened? I'm always curious. And yeah, he said, I was, I was playing with one of the other kids, and then Bodhi came up to me and was holding on to my arm. And I looked down on my arm and I could feel something, like, as well as his hand. And I looked down and he'd put his hand down into his nappy, pulled out some poo, and then wiped it on this guy's arm. I picked up Bodhi.

Josh: Has he ever done that for you?

Tommy: I've seen him stick his hand into his nappy and yeah, it's— yeah, once, which was— yeah, it was, it was bad. But he'd— I pick him up and it's a classic joke, I always do it. I picked him up and I said, shouldn't do that, Bodhi. And then I whispered in his ear, well done, good work, good work. And then I look over—

Josh: no, no, do you lift up his— did you lift up his mullet as you were saying it just to get a real clear view of his ear?

Tommy: His mullet's actually in fine form, longer than it's ever been. But, um, that's—

Josh: have you got an update on when he's getting a haircut?

Tommy: Oh no, I think it's even—

Josh: I'm—

Tommy: his mullet's even better now. Like, I'm, I'm more in— I'm liking his mullet more and more. And he gets— people just constantly, a lot of people say cut it, but, um, I say it's my son, I'll do what I want. Um, but he It's looking good. Plus I'm growing my hair, so we'll just, we'll weather the storm together until we can both look like Patrick Swayze.

Josh: What is the actual, like, what, where does your mind go when it comes to the mullet? Like, what is the pushback on the haircut?

Tommy: Well, no, we like his hair. We want to give him like a little, um, I just wanted to have like a little, just some, just free-flowing hair.

Josh: What's the difference between a mullet and just long hair?

Tommy: Uh, well, his hair will grow at some point. It will grow into each other. He was born— he was born with the classic George Costanza look, so no hair on the top, just around the sides, and, and then it just slowly grew on the top and, um, yeah, kept growing the back end.

Josh: So it's probably like me with my neckbeard, like I always grow my neckbeard first. So that's like his mullet. He leads— my neckbeard is like his mullet in that regard.

Tommy: Well, a kid comes out and you don't know what's going to happen with their hair situation. It could be shitloads of hair, it could be none, or some. But he got a kind of weird combination. He was very bald on top. Um, so yeah, I mean, I've seen some kids come out with like a full head of hair. It's the most bizarre thing. Kids are weird. Kids are—

Josh: Mate, talking about kids being weird, you should have seen the, um, when we were at the airport. I've never seen a kid scream as much. Luckily he wasn't on our flight, but, um, it was one of those things where normally when someone's crying or whatever, like a kid's crying, you sort of have empathy for the parent and you're all like, oh yeah, I hope they— People were like rolling their eyes. This kid was just fucking like he sounded like an animal. He was making a sound that I'd like never heard before, and he was just like just fucking like throwing himself. Yeah, he was like— this is just before he was about to board the flight, and I could just— and the— and I like, if you're the parent in that situation, like, do you, do you go empathetic for the kid and just be like, oh no, come on, calm down, or whatever? Or like, I feel like if that was my kid, I would need to create some sort of scene to show everyone, like tokenistically, that I'm like as pissed off as they are. Because I was almost getting a little bit annoyed that the lady wasn't fucking caring enough that her kid was losing his mind.

Tommy: Yeah, there is millions of strategies to apply. Actually, there's either ignore it, try and solve it, or just keep going. Like Amy's been taking Bodhi home on the tram every now and then from work. And he— she said he just lost it the other day on a packed peak hour tram in Melbourne and just, he was just flopping over, flopping around. And someone said, oh, you can sit down here. And then, you know, she tries to— you try and you pull out the, um, the secret weapon, the mobile phone, and, uh, yeah, try and get him to watch. But sometimes it just doesn't work. I experienced that tantrum just nothing was helping at Southland Shopping Center. And it was what, literally is one of those moments where you go, I've judged parents in this moment and it's, there's not much you can do. Like, yeah, I mean, yeah, you just, what, it's so, it's embarrassing, but it's also like, yeah, I think you can't do much about it. I think it doesn't feel as bad as you think it would when you're looking at a parent with a kid.

Josh: Yeah. Because you've become immune to their annoyance. Oh, yeah. You've got a higher tolerance rate for the screaming.

Tommy: Yeah.

Josh: Because it probably doesn't sound new.

Tommy: Yeah, 100%. It's like the start, I mean, for a parent at the start, I think it's like this, they're crying, it's like you can hear it from a mile away, but then there's just been so much of it and you've ignored so much of it. 'Cause a lot of the time it's not them actually in pain, it's just something going on, so yeah.

Josh: Well, yeah, it was interesting. I was listening to, I was on the plane here, I was listening to Osher Ginsberg, who's got a new book out. I think it's, we'll be back after the break or after the break or something. Uh, he was being interviewed by Mayor Freeman, and I, I was like falling asleep during the thing, so, but I was waking up at points. And one of the bits that I heard was him talking about this sort of like, um, his first like panic attack when he was 3 years old. And I feel like it's super interesting because I feel like when I was 3, like, are you really— I find it fascinating to be able to know when you're 3 years old those sort of experiences, because I feel like I would have had so many times it could have been considered a panic attack where it's like, if you're willing to like lose your mind in like a shopping centre as an adult, that would be, that would be deemed like a real big fucking panic attack or something.

Tommy: True.

Josh: Do you think that like, I mean, what, what's your vibe on that? Do you think like, do you think there's a, there's a an age where it sort of becomes from a tantrum that any kid will have to something that's more serious?

Tommy: Yeah, well, I couldn't tell you. I think it's unique for everybody. But you see, like, so Bodhi doesn't cry when we leave him at daycare, never has.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: There's this kid that I've been seeing every, every morning recently that's just in hysterics. Just, it's probably separation anxiety. It's like, where does that come from? If one kid doesn't have it and then the other kid does, I don't think it's— it's got nothing to do with their parenting style because the kid's like so fresh. Like as individuals, like it's so eye-opening having a kid and taking them to daycare when you see the little personalities that are there at 18 months. Like it is outrageous. Like it is cemented who you are from a very early age. Just your— It's a massive roll of the dice.

Josh: I think that's probably the thing to consider with all this. Shit is. It's like, if you've got a great kid, you probably just got fucking lucky.

Tommy: Yeah, yeah. And, and, you know, the meaning— a kid— like, I look at Bodhi because he's pretty out there and he's got a lot of my tendencies in terms of just like, he's a bit wild. And I, I'm definitely—

Josh: but do you think the mullet makes him wild? Like, do you think that you're— but seriously, do you think that maybe if like, because of like this, the how you dress him, how you like fucking keep his hair. I was gonna say how you cut his hair, but you haven't cut his hair, that's the thing. But, um, do you think that, that like if you put him in little tuxedos and cut his hair short like Bree and I would have our kid, do you think that he would, he would be more into computers and, um, less like outdoorsy or sort of like, like, yeah, I don't, I don't think so.

Tommy: He He never— like, when you, when you leave him at daycare and when you pick him up, he's constantly just doing stuff. He's walking around like sweeping, or he's walking around with like this little stick that has this duck that you can— it just has these little legs on it and rolls, and he's just, he's constantly burning around and he's just got that energy in him. And it's just, he's got a bit of— he's got chutzpah. And then there's these other little kids that are just a little bit meek and just lovely and just bit quiet, but just, yeah, he's, Bodhi is a little leader, it's crazy. Like he demands attention from in the room, not like yelling, but kids just flock to him, it's bizarre. And I hope it's, you know, it just needs to be harnessed. Oh, I've gotta close the loop. And my mom even said, oh, we'll close the loop. I think she said, yeah, I've gotta talk to you about something from one of the podcasts you've been talking that you said, something you said, And so I've got to shout out—

Josh: Is this like close the loop or is this your mum wanting corrections when you fuck things up? Or is this an actual close the loop?

Tommy: No, I think it's a close the loop.

Josh: So yeah, great.

Tommy: Mick Hall, who we had on, we talked about ADHD, ADD, and it was probably, I think it was pretty in vogue to judge kids and say that they had ADHD or ADD if they were just Yeah, had a bit of personality back in the day. And so, I think I said something around the teachers used to say that I had ADD, and it was something similar for you, wasn't it?

Josh: Yeah, well, my mum would always threaten that we're gonna go to the doctors and get me medicated. I reckon, I was thinking about it, I give, if I've got a headache or something, I won't take Panadol or anything like, I rarely take medication, and it drives Bri crazy sometimes going like, "Oh no, just drink some water." And I wouldn't be surprised if it's from the negativity that came from taking medication for anything. So yeah, it's interesting. So yeah, so your mum heard that episode.

Tommy: Yeah, and she said, "Oh, I've been meaning to tell you, we got you tested," which I can't even remember getting tested. She probably took me, told me it was a dentist appointment, next minute getting tested for ADD. Turns out I never had it. So really, stick it up your ass, teachers.

Josh: You're just a, you're just an asshole of a kid. Nothing to blame.

Tommy: Yeah, yeah.

Josh: The, the, um, ah, that actually reminds me of getting tests as a kid. Um, I would— Mum was always complaining that I was like fucking couldn't hear her, right? When she would like ask me to do stuff or like I'd be on the couch watching TV. I said, I can't hear you. So, we went to a hearing test and I had like perfect hearing. The person doing the ear test said, yeah, he's just ignoring you.

Tommy: Get stuffed. Because you're quite— you're very— self-aware?

Josh: Did you—

Tommy: you knew on the way to the hearing test, did you know what was going on?

Josh: No, I think— no, I think— I don't know, I think that actually I couldn't hear it, hear Mum, but I think I was just ignoring it. Like, I even can do that with Bri too, where it's like if I'm doing something, if I'm like reading something or watching something, I can't do more than one thing. Like, it's not that I am just I'm not being disrespectful or anything like that. It's literally like if I try and do more than one thing, none of the things are going to happen. And so, I think maybe it was a bit of that, but it was funny to think that I, yeah, we went to the doctors and stuff and there was literally nothing wrong with my ears.

Tommy: That's a classic. So, here's a test that they don't do for, that they don't do, but everyone self-diagnoses themselves. And that's people who say, oh, I'm not a morning person.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: And so, 'cause what are you?

Josh: I think I'm an 8-hour, I think I'm this, I'm an 8 hours of sleep person.

Tommy: Yeah.

Josh: And as long as I've had that, I can do stuff. So, if I go to bed and I'm counting the hours on my fingers, I'm like, I'm only getting 6 hours, I straight away panic. Because I'm like, I'm gonna wake up, I'm not gonna feel good. Whereas if I get 8 hours, 7.5 is okay too, but I'll wake up. The reason, like if you think about it, and this is like when I was growing up, I couldn't wake up in the morning. Like we would leave for school at 7, actually no, not 7, 8, would leave school at fucking 8, and I would be at like 10 to 8 still in bed and mum screaming, gosh, "Get up now," that type of deal.

Tommy: Can't hear you.

Josh: And yeah, I was like, "Kanye, Kanye, mum." Good gag. And yeah, so I, but it was because I would go to bed, like when I was like 16, 17, I would stay up until like 2 in the morning, like editing and talking, like even I would edit and talk to mates at the same time on the phone. It was just, I just did not prioritise sleep at all.

Tommy: Well, I think there's a few things when you're 16 and your nuts are dropping, there's a lot of testosterone flowing through your system and you're quite hormonal. So it's a gripe I've always had.

Josh: Hashtag squeegee.

Tommy: Yeah, exploration. It's a conversation Amy and I have a lot. We battle it out in the mornings 'cause I basically, spring out of bed and I'm pretty awake. I just got to do what I know I've got to do. It's the morning, I got to get to work. And Amy's always been of the thinking of school of thought of, I'm not a morning person and I struggle getting up. And it's one of those things. But then I, my thought around it is if she's got a flight that we need to catch and it's in the morning, there seems to be no problem. So, it's like, is there— is it a really morning— is it really a morning thing? Or it's like—

Josh: I always—

Tommy: I think there's probably—

Josh: I think there's bullshit. Yeah, I think it's probably the— I think it does come down to when you go to bed. I think that the reality of people who get up early is they go to bed early as well. And so, I reckon that most people who say that they're not a morning person aren't having 8 hours. Like, if you were to have 8 hours of sleep, my feeling is that as long as I have 8 hours of sleep, I'll be able to wake up and I'll be fine. What time do you guys normally go to bed?

Tommy: We don't go to bed that late. 10 o'clock sometimes, 10:30, like not even. I mean, yeah, it's when you have a kid, it's pretty early. I mean, when Amy was single, she used to go to bed pretty late. But I think you just, you've probably fallen in a trap of going to bed late and then associating mornings with this pain of getting up because you're tired.

Josh: And then, yeah, I mean, it's probably a mindset, like it probably is a mindset thing. I think one thing that I've become better at is empathetic with not everyone's me type of thing. And I even know that, like, I was, um, speaking to a friend the other day who, um, they, uh, they was— they were basically— they said, I stayed up until 4 AM, I just couldn't go to sleep. And, um, I straight away said, uh, one thing that helps me is, um, having a cold shower before I go to bed. And then as, as I said that, I rolled it into, but I don't have insomnia, so I'm like, so it might not help. Like, so I completely understand that that might not help at all.

Tommy: Yeah.

Josh: Um, I think that that's probably a slight tweak in the way that I view things, which is like, oh, like I could say, oh, all you need is 8 hours of sleep, or, oh, you just need to change your mindset to be like, um, to— for it to be a positive thing or create like positive habits. But, um, yeah, I don't know if it says, um, as easy as, as that.

Tommy: Yeah, well, I, I, uh, we haven't really thrown it out to people listening that are in a field of expertise. I'd love to know if a doctor is listening that either, you know, has spent a bit more time at university than us, which is going to university. So if you've been— if even if you've started a doctor's course, I was about to say certificate.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: And you know, if you know anything about like—

Josh: if you've got a Cert 3 in medicine, let us know. Fuck, I believe Cert 3 is as high as it goes.

Tommy: Well, mate, I've got a Cert 3 and a Cert 4, so, uh, I think that's the—

Josh: I think that's like master's in TAFE language.

Tommy: Not even, not even. But no, if anyone knows about the morning, if, if it's a legitimate thing, like morning person, is it a legitimate thing? Are you one or are you not?

Josh: Um, one thing that I just was thinking about too, the, um On that Osher Ginsberg interview, have you seen his, um, Men's Health photos?

Tommy: He's ripped.

Josh: Yeah. And I— what I thought was really interesting is, um, I was listening to a podcast with him and Mia Friedman was on. She normally gives me the shits, but she— I actually enjoyed, um, this episode. Um, what turned me off was I listened to this Will Anderson episode.

Tommy: Yeah.

Josh: And she used the first 5 minutes without Will being there describing how they used to have crushes on each other. It's just like really weird, like, oh yeah, you know, Will used to have a crush on me and, you know, I used to sort of have a crush on him. And so, it was just like, fuck it, what a weird way to start an interview with someone. Very weird. I find it interesting the podcasts that contextualise at the beginning where they have an interview and then they use the first 10 minutes to explain the interview. I feel like sometimes, especially if it becomes a bit of a heated conversation, I don't think it's necessarily fair for the interviewee because you're essentially like, you're getting the last say. You're able to like get the whole audience on your page and giving, hey, this was my point of view when I was asking these questions and then leading on. But in saying that, Mia was grilling Osher about the COVID because he's been— he was talking about how when he was working, I think on The Bachelor, he had this situation where it was basically, I think, set up by some paps or someone where they wanted— they needed him to take his shirt off for the show or something to get into some scuba gear. And there were paps there waiting to get photos of him without his top on when he had sort of weight issues, which happened to be the weight issues from the medication he was taking from his, um, uh, you know, sort of mental illness. But, um, she did bring up an interesting point around, okay, like, you know, why do you want to do the COVID type of thing? He's like, you know, I want it to be a positive mental health storey about how like through exercise and all that sort of thing I was able to do this. But then you hear his description in like the last 48 hours of him getting ready for that photo, and it's like you stop drinking water, you fucking get dehydrated, all that sort of thing. I just don't know how I feel about it because it's sort of, it feels like a massive contradiction, which is like in one way he's trying to say be happy who you are, with who you are. And, um, you know, but then at the same time, I think it's great to like celebrate your achievements, but I don't know about that last 2 days of fucking getting dehydrated and doing all of that hacking shit to try and get lean as fuck for the COVID Yeah, it is a bit of hell.

Tommy: It's not— that's not health. I mean, yeah, most people that are either competing or doing those things are not in a healthy state at the moment they're taking that photo. Bodybuilders, I don't know how healthy it is for the amount of food that they eat during training. I mean, they're just optimising the, the result of what they're putting.

Josh: They're optimising an aesthetic. Yeah, as well, right? They're optimising it like, okay, this looks good, but like Yeah, so I thought that was interesting, but it was just on my mind where I'm like, yeah, actually, it was a little bit like, fuck you to the situation in the sense of like, yeah, I don't like, I don't necessarily need to look like that. And I think that there's probably, I think that, yeah, I don't know. I was just a little bit like the, it seems a bit disingenuous to sort of say that it's all for this, um, specific thing whilst at the same time also projecting into the world these sort of negative body sort of, um, perspectives.

Tommy: Yeah, I've told you, I like, as soon as I have done not competitions but, you know, challenges or focused seriously on what I'm eating, diet, you know, I I become more vain. It's like a result of this input. I start looking in the mirror more, start trying to look at my abs, and I don't like it. It doesn't feel good for me. Like, I don't feel like it's a healthy mindset for me. And when I, I mean, the other result is when I eat shit food and I'm like, I feel a similar way but in the opposite direction, if that makes sense. And so there has to be a middle ground. Which is hard because it's, I mean, humans are always sort of having these extremes that make them feel something, you know, like it's almost like the middle ground doesn't make you feel enough. And it's not like, you know, like we like a bit of pain in some respects because it means that we're sort of on this path to getting to the other side or something like that. And so maybe the middle ground where you're just like, yeah, this is good. I don't know, it's such a weird thing because it is, it's all in my head.

Josh: It's just promoting. I think that the thing is that, um, maybe what it is without, um, just purely looking at the COVID And I think that when it is a cover, like, that's all you've got to be able to look at it on its own and see what the message is rather than just— I think that what his point was, was that he was sort of, um it was a way into the conversation. So it was sort of, um, Trojan horsing the issue where it's like, oh look, I've got these abs, and then, oh look, mental health. But, um, I still think that maybe it sets off this, um, expectation that to, um, you know, that you, that you need that. I think that it's just— I think that it's like there's a little bit of danger to that sort of thing because I was even like, um, I know that my— I was even like slightly triggered with like, oh yeah, maybe I should do that, like, oh yeah, that would be cool. And then it's like, I don't— if you think about the obsessive nature that's required to get to that point, even if it's over a short period of time, versus just, um, like it'd be interesting to see what the what health actually looks like. Like maybe, maybe health would look like that if you were there like from the beginning, but I just feel like going from fat to that, uh, in a short period of time isn't necessarily that, you know, it was 6 months or whatever, but I just, yeah, I don't know. Anyway, I was thinking about that.

Tommy: Well, I think, I think we need to, um, get you on the front of Men's Health. Uh, when you get back, I can—

Josh: I know.

Tommy: No, I think we should, I think we should do like the one thing about doing those, um, challenges that might not be the most healthy thing for you in terms of your mindset, mindset. It like you can propel yourself into a new sort of, um, it's like levelling up, you know. So like I reckon I've built like a base strength from doing the sort of going all in and then refine, then sort of pulling back and not training like that. But I've definitely like levelled up And so it, um, it— there is definitely benefits in it if you can, if you can do it.

Josh: Um, it's like life in general, right? It's like me going to chaotic airports or dealing with issues in previous trips means that when I go to an airport that has a similar situation, I feel like I can just like lean into it and it's completely fine. It's probably the same thing with this sort of thing, you know. That you've done it before and you can do it again and you've got the foundation.

Tommy: One thing that I, like I was obsessed this, so I've done maybe a couple of challenges within the last 3 years, I've done 2 where a bunch of mates got together and sort of trained out to this date. And anyway, the first time I did it and I just refined, like I had such little carbs and I was so strict and then I got results.— and then the next time I did it and I did it differently where I actually had carbs and I got really great results. And so it's like, for me, it was like this moment where I was like, you actually can do it how— like your body is so unique that it will respond and you need to work it out, but you're only gonna get it by trying it. And so, you know, it's— you can't just say don't eat carbs to people 'cause carbs are actually good in some respects.

Josh: Um, well, I think that that was part of Osher's point in doing it was showing that you can build lean muscle through a, a, um, plant-based diet without having meat. Um, so, you know, I get it, but at the same time, like, that's— there's 100 different ways of doing stuff, and I get that there is— when you look, you know, when you look over time, we've lent towards eating eggs and lean meats and shit like that. And this is just another option. So I don't think we need to worry that it's, it's, you know, going to move too far the other way. Mm-hmm.

Tommy: Uh, well, that's perfect. The Daily Talk Show.

Josh: Thanks everyone for listening to The Daily Talk Show. Feel free to email us, hi@thedailytalkshow.com. And, um, yeah, we'll see you tomorrow. On Friday, uh, we've got, uh, Jules Lund on the show, the founder of Tribe, our mate, mate. And yeah, it'll be good to have him on Friday.

Tommy: See you guys, bye!