#127 – Working for free/
- July 11, 2018
The Daily Talk Show — Wednesday July 11 (Ep 127) – Josh Janssen & Tommy Jackett
We go deep on business, defining personal success and working for free. Love you.
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conversation sometimes worth recording with Josh Johnson and Tommy jacket.
It's a daily Talk Show Episode 127. What is up
yo with this has been probably the longest. It's taken us to sort out from a
technical point of view. I don't care what they say. It's easy to do a show international
every single day.
Yeah, that's okay. It's all right. At least way around. We're getting it done. Which makes me which makes me happy. But just so you know, there may have been seven minutes of recording
we went, it was possibly the best podcast you never hear.
Yeah, that's the name of this. That's the name of this episode, the best podcast you will never hear.
So I guess we recap what we're saying. I was I was saying at the top of the show that I appreciate Dom Evans, who does the podcast podcast where he interviews like radio imaging people. So the people who make all the the sound sound good and shit like that man have done the worst explanation.
You were saying? How do you? Well,
he's he's an audio producer. And you were saying he made the intro to this
show. He didn't. Yes, I know all of these. I gave him these elements. And I was like, Mike, can you put a little bit of something, something on top of it, make it sound good. Mix it up. And he now that that was on, I remember Episode 100, before we had before we had high mission. He
was a thing where there hasn't been a massive amount of compliments. And this has nothing to do with Dom you just just put the pieces of wood together and made it look good. But there hasn't been a massive amount of compliments on the intro. Which doesn't tell me that it's bad. It just doesn't tell me that anyone's going out of their way to site. But I caught my brother walking down the stairs and my office humming Mm hmm. And it was more so it's subtle. Subtle,
right? We're slowly What's it called? When you get people under their control? under your control? What's
that called? My year? a dictatorship doing
a thing with my hands. No, not dictatorship. Master? No, no puppet master. It's the thing that we're going to. I'm going to put you under hypnosis. We're hypnotizing people. Yeah,
through if you actually slow it down really slowly, it says, I don't know. We don't even have anything to sell. I was gonna say, by our DVD. We're definitely not selling David A. But I was actually talking to Craig Harper today. And this is not he asked how the podcast was guiding us. But my point being that this is nothing about wanting to talk about focus, but how you gauge how something's going. And lot of the time it's even, I mean, business, it's money coming in, you could look at videos as views to your video, or, you know, it's like there's a the most go to metric within anything you're doing. And it's weird because it changes across everything. Because it's like, if something feels good, maybe that's the better metric than the numbers that are coming in. Because over time, it will equate to something great. And I think the only metric that we have is that it happens every single day. Yeah, and
so another let and realize we realize that we've got a level that we want to get to in regards to entertainment factor how interesting we are but at the moment really we're really at the stage that people are when they're trying to lose weight which is like we're literally going for a walk every single day we're just trying that well you
gotta start somewhere and he can't jump steps like he can't expect something to be awesome from day one and it might be there's no there's no authority in that it won't be or it will be about it. Chances are anything you're doing anything you doing Yeah, take so long we're talking about Craig Harper who was on the show Episode 90 I think about something other than one of the hundred and 27 that we've done but yeah, we're talking like he can put on a conference or a workshop and get 700 people there and that's like it sounds you know you go to it and it feels flawless and feels like it's not that much if it's been put in Look at him up there is just talking but then on the other side of that is like that actually Soham The one thing going to all these events and filming them as like fuck eds. An absolute mission to actually get that many people to something like it is so hard to actually make someone go either way to go to somewhere to watch you do something, it's fucking phenomenal.
I think that the other interesting thing that happens that I've been observing over the years is how other people's success or doing something rubs off on other people in a good way. But also in a way that almost makes them feel like they have done something themselves to have like, worked at companies where employees will say, I think it should be done this way. Or that way. As if they built this multimillion dollar business. Yeah. And what they're forgetting is the person that's making the decisions, the founder, or the CEO, or whoever it is, they have actually done it like, it's if forget those sorts of it. It's the same thing with going to those types of events. I think there's a lot of people that run events after seeing another event being run, and they bomb because they just they think that they've done it that because of the have gone to an event, or the people who watch movies think that they could make movies, it's like, there is a huge jump between being a consumer of something and actually doing something Oh, hundred percent this this time trust, like everything you've done previously, 20 years of experience that might you know, tribute to why you can even get anyone anyway. It's like the people that have come to you and I and and I've had a few of them. And it's the ones who want to create an online course. And you know, the stats are the the math works out really great. 1000 times by $30. If I sell it for 30 bucks. There's a lot of money. Yeah,
$30,000. Yeah, I didn't want to go there. Because I didn't know the math back my point. It's like, Fuck, that is simple. But the hardest thing you could possibly do?
Yeah, well, it just doesn't work. It just doesn't work out like that. Right? It's just there's a huge and we've been really realistic I think we even say the podcast metrics a bit about like, expecting white less. Yeah, when I was on my, I went on a long walk around Serrano yesterday. And I was like thinking the whole time I was thinking about what you and I are doing next without business, all that sort of thing. Now thinking one of the, the filters that I think about is learning fast, but growing steady, like steadily rather than people. Like, I think people want to grow really fast. They want like the success really fast. But the problem with that is, you haven't gone through the whole process to learn all the different things. And it's way easier to it's way easier to end up losing that right versus just growing it. It's, it's like I was thinking about, it's like I age, right? You can, you can be more mature. You can learn more things than an 18 year old. But if you're 18 years old, you can all of a sudden rock up and say you're 25. It's just like the only thing that the only thing we're working with ease time in that regard. And you can't there's nothing that can make you skip ahead of that time was an even playing field with the question of time. Although, when I was 15, I was rocking up and asked 21 accordion my fucking fat guy day.
What What do you think about I was reading a thread on Twitter about doing free work. And then there's this massive movement at the moment where even MTV or their parents company had a class action against them,
which they, which they lost. So the class action actually one that to pay money to a bunch of just to be brave, can you make sure that your brain is currently standing naked, and I'm on FaceTime with Tommy, but you find there, but now there's no either your receptions, go and shoot. So I can't say anything. Okay, that's what you saying
that the know. So MTV was basically sued for having interns working for free interest. And all these people are saying fuck framework frameworks, the worst, yet people are happy to spend a shit ton of money every single every single year on college, what's your vibe on free work, it's got its shelf life. But then you and you know, you and I have done so much free work in our time. But it gets to a point where you there has to be massive value in it. For me, I'm doing something for free for somebody. But it was my initiative this week. And I made it clear that the thing that I'm doing is worth two and a half thousand dollars minimum is what I would charge and I would rather do it for free than 250 bucks or whatever. But they weren't offering that. So for me, the values high in it in that I will have creative control to it. And I will then as a good gesture and pass it on to them. And I it's like, I'm not even doing it. Because of that. It's sometimes it's you can be I think I'm being selfish in some ways, but offering value on the other side of it for them. So it does even out the selfishness versus the value that you're bringing. So
yeah, I think it's good. It's shelf life doing free work. And you and God
Yeah, well, one of the things that they're talking about is that if you have the ability the to do free work that were somehow were in a privileged position. So they're sort of saying okay, if you can do free work, it means that you've you've got a roof over your head you've got food on the table and so the thoughts around not allowing free work is that
what they what I was reading was that they say free work is a something for a group of privileged people who don't need to necessarily make money to live yeah but I just think that the my view on it is probably the best way to get out of the poverty cycle would be to be doing free work because if you're getting paid for it you like it's always going to be those menial tasks and it's going to be very transactional whereas I think about like I grew up in in the burbs, I didn't have, I didn't have a family that was in media, I didn't have,
you know, I didn't have any contacts in that regards. But doing you know, a course at the Victorian College of the Arts and doing all these sorts of things, and doing heaps of free work and going in to the city like that was how that was, like, invaluable. So I feel
like it's almost a missed opportunity. So you know, how I told you that I got an email from a guy named Mason and the subject line was I want to work for you for free Tommy and
I thought perfect opportunity to exploit someone for free now, I didn't I I appreciated his email and he's coming in tomorrow. He came in last week, but I kinda said he was kind of communicating to me what he wanted to do for me, but I kinda was like, Okay, I get that. But what do you want out of this? Because I thought that's really important. If someone's willing to do something for you for free. There's something there's an agenda there which is okay the agenda just could be I want experience it doesn't have to be I want to one day get money out of you. But I think it's
if Yeah, something interesting that he told me was he's dead because he's I attain and he was started going to Union now is kind of pulled the pin because he he said it was lime and and not progressive, the business course that was doing but he's dad was blown away that he was doing things for free for people. And he couldn't quite understand and maybe it's generational that he was like, why are you helping this person for free, which is one way to look at it. But the other side is, I I know how powerful it is doing stuff for somebody for free. It's like when Craig happen when we I've known him for 10 years, but I haven't been close with him like I am now considering what I'm a really good match. But I remember I email I'm I was the Adjust out of my production business nearly three years ago. And I pulled him up on Facebook, and I'd seen his content going up and I messaged him, I said, Hi, Craig. It's Tommy. hope you're well night. I've just started my production company. I love the content you're putting out. I would love to help you out. I'm not looking for money. I just really believe in the content that you're creating. And so if I can be of any help, let me know. And he messaged me back he said, I'm sitting here at my computer, looking through my contacts working out who could help me with video stuff? What's your number, which was like a serendipitous, like you'd never believe. And now we've created a a friendship beyond our, you know, exchange business wise, we're really, we're really good nights. We have lunch all the time. And so I, I saw that, but it evolved from there. And so if you're looking at that, he gave me an opportunity. And he gave me an opportunity that trust was involved. And he allowed me to be creative. And it's like, shaped a lot of the content I've created from those opportunities. So doing stuff for free, can give you a huge opportunity.
Yeah, and it's also the it's a value transaction, I think that you need to look at it like rather than because I just think about the numbers. I'm like, if safe, if you were to pay an intern $10 an hour or $20 an hour or whatever it is, like, what would that do for their life? Like, I actually much prefer saying, if you're really passionate about this, do two or three days of free work, and then, you know, work a job work two jobs to make it happen. And I think that that, yeah, I also I even think about like, sorry, I'm still clearly sick, the podcast, right, what we're doing is people really quickly, surprisingly, jump to sort of how you going to monetize what's the, you know, how you making money off this. And guess we're in a unique position where we know that we can do this for free for fun, maybe one day that we make direct money from it, we would be happy doing 1000 episodes where we're not making money off it. And that's because we know that we can make a bunch more money making video content telling stories and doing that type of thing. Well, you can only get good at something by doing it sheet to start with. And if you're getting paid while you're working it out. You're probably pulling the wool over people's eyes. And I mean, I've probably done that in the early days. Because I've
been out of alignment with, you know, my ability to sell something and my ability selling something, a product versus my actual ability to create that thing. But then it It definitely is out like I've seen this growth in what I have done the first year into the second year, kind of deep down where it's like aligning because I'm understanding the value that I actually needed bring for the money that I'm asking for. And so when it when it evens out? Yeah, you it. Yeah. It's it makes you know that if you are charging for it, there has to be a lot of value that you are bringing, it's just more promises. Money just brings a promise, right? The promise of delivering something, it's a promise of value in some way.
Well, yeah, I think that what we're doing is still a promise, I think that we're us doing it every day is the one and only promise that we've really made. Yeah, so as long as we're doing that, I'm really happy. But I think even with Patreon, which is a website where people can back you, they can basically give you a little bit of money every month, almost like a subscription. You pick different tiers. And I've seen podcasts do that where so they have 2530 backers and say if those backers are giving $10 a month that only that's bringing in say 250, 300
bucks a month. And some may if you do the if you do the calculations what you're losing in regards to I feel like if you ask people to pay for something, then they've got skin in the game they're expecting they can get really pissed off when they're like the the audio was bad On this episode, or stuff like that. where it's like, it's not worth the cost of a Telstra bill.
Yeah, what what we saying recently as if, as if it's free, like, we were still doing it as if we're not making money for it. Let us
know. So knows the idea. Just bang that like, we're doing it as if it is the biggest shock, right? We're doing is if I mean, it's the paradox, it's, we're doing it as if there's a million people listening, but we're also doing it as if it's you and I in a room having a conversation. Yeah,
another beat around the it's like, so if you see a lot of these creators, they start getting money in sponsors, it changes everything, right? And so if you can, I think if you could not monetize something, and make that work at that equation somewhere else, it's more powerful, because you're doing it just because you love it, not because you're getting paid to do it.
Yeah, exactly. And I think it's a it's definitely the, the direction that we're, we're going into, and it's, um, it's interesting, right? Because I think that we're playing in different different models, the model of, you know, getting
having a client based business where you're, it's a easy transaction where a company comes to you and they say, were commissioning you to create this piece of work. And then, you know, they'll give you a brief in some cases, and you sort of do that, versus where, I guess, way wanting to play which is doing,
you know, doing a regional content and being paid by clients to bring our creativity because I just, I'm not interested in being a commodity. I'm not interested in being a camera man for hire. Or I think that we have a lot more to offer than that. 100%. And how have you been? I haven't really ask you this. Like, I know we've talked about you disconnecting from what's happening here. But I could imagine if I was in your place where you haven't been running your business like you normally do, you haven't been in the day to day like, you slip into a Melbourne Have you had any shifts in your thinking in terms of, you know, what you want to do, or be or create, like, from a career point of view, has it been worth it, like, disconnecting from those elements of business and my everyday life, I think that the biggest thing is
not compromising in some regards. So I think that we always have have these intentions, I've started businesses before where I'm going to create original content. But it's been sort of a it really has wild stuff set as planned. I it's really been planned Bay because I needed to make money and I've gone into client type stuff. So I think that the biggest thing for me is constantly reminding me what it is that I actually want and not compromising on on that. So saying, if this is if creating original content building this type of career and life lifestyle is what I want to do, then it doesn't make sense to be doesn't make sense to be getting into the grind too hard on the other stuff because it's the wrong direction. I've been loving that book I'm like two hours in to two hours audio rating I've
got another I have small giants which Yeah, it essentially he talks about challenging the the norm on growth of a business so it's like you build the business you get lots of staff or you know you franchise or you do an IPO you list on the stock exchange you get outside capital so there's all these like traditional methods of growth in a business but it's like he goes investigates all these businesses that have at some point knocked back opportunities to have exponential growth or sell out for hundred million box and it's Yeah, it's so fascinating because I'm so I've been so caught up in in my world. And I think about every business I've had, I've had like four or five and all a thought was started business, you grow it, you try and scale it, you have this pain of working out how to get more people on board or sell, you know, more product or get more employees. But it's like more clients. More employees. More work. Bigger office. Yeah. And so yeah, I've just been it's like, there is actually another way and all it takes is to actually takes is you to think about on the other side, what the success really looks like. In fact, I've you literally he is so many of you will banging on about it's like work out what your version of successes and then go for that. And it sounds so simple. But it's like you It's easy. And I'm super guilty of being caught up in creating success that looks like someone else's, you know.
Yeah. And it's about being clear. I think that for most people, they don't know what it is that they're what success looks like for them. And so for us, it's taken a bunch of businesses and learnings and working from home, working from cafes, having an office sharing an office bit, you know, all of these different combinations to then say, Actually, I'm going to take these six things that I really like and double down on that. Yeah,
yeah, it's what Hamish Blake said on episode 100 it's like what you're doing right now might not be the thing where you end up it's the thing that you need to do to get to where you want to end up in the end it's like it's hard to swallow sometimes because when you were doing your media flex business or you're in the next exactly
if you were to think about that and get it would be almost like numbing paralyzing to think of a hang on if this is an actually it. But I think as you get further like where I am now I feel more convinced about where I'm going than I did the previous one. But at that point, it felt like the right thing to do in the moment. So it's like it's it's a funny existence.
Yeah, I mean, how do you what what do you think is the if people listening who
at that sort of solo operators stage you know, they're freelancing? What do you think are the biggest traps that you know obviously for for a lot of people who are freelances. Having multiple employees is a bit of a pipe dream. Maybe even having an office as a pipe dream there might be doing you know, there might be getting a nice salary a year through them, you know, during their freelance work. What do you think is probably the biggest misconception that you've come to realize? Um,
yeah, I think it's the misconception is the way you think you can you need to grow your business and challenging that you've challenged me heaps on that in, you know, a year ago, and it was, I think, was the right thing to challenge. It felt fucking uncomfortable for me to think about, but I almost new, it's almost like listening. Fuck, it's like relationships, you actually know, if it's not rot. It's, you don't have does lying to yourself that, yeah, I really like this chick. But no, I've done it. plenty, plenty talents. And the same with business. I feel it's like you, I kind of know. And it's also like, looking at what what rewards you like, I think the best thing about you and I going into business together, it's like, it's, it's been lonely doing it by myself. And so it's like, those other people around you, that helps like, so I have my space. And I've got people in there. And it's nice to have people around. But they're not, they're not sharing my vision of what I want to create. And so
I guess it's not saying you should go and find someone and go into business with but thinking about what it is that you want from the business. And I think for me, it's like sharing the journey with somebody that's aligned with where I want to go. And yeah,
and I think the other thing too, is, it's, um, it's, it is like a relationship, in the sense of waiting, go into doing the daily talk with the idea that we're going to have a business together at the end of it, right. And so it is that thing of, I think that what probably happens a lot is people think about the thing. And I think that this is probably the biggest risk that we have at the beginning, is getting excited about having this new business and focusing too much on the business rather than the fact of like, what I was thinking about a lot yesterday was actually the things that we want to do what the business is going to enable us to do. So it's like, creating original content and going out and making that versus I think a lot of people can get stuck in, you know, especially with the sort of the startup world it's like, yeah, I've got a start up, and I've got the, and I've got my slack. And now this is all you know, it's, it's that versus actually doing their thing. And so for us, the daily talk show is already that thing, this is a constant. And we'll do what we're doing with this podcast within a video context. And within a broader storytelling context, as well. Yeah,
which totally makes sense, but why you don't do it before. And I think that's why it's like, with your own business, if you got like a solo operating, it's like, you need to grind through all these hard feelings of not, you know, not sure how to grow it. Not sure what I want to do. It's like, it all adds to the next thing, which it sucks. It's annoying. But for me, I've gotta like what I'm doing enough to get through that. Because if you weren't actually in love with the thing that you were doing, and, you know, you might be selling socks, but you're actually in love with marketing. So that's keeping you in the sock business. But it's like you need I think that helps you weather the storm of what we're talking about? Well, I think the biggest self criticism I've had with with me is that I've, I've never stayed on anything long enough. I've always, you know, had these fleeting projects. Yeah.
And I think that if I look back on it, that was all context building, it was me realizing early on, this isn't actually I could never sort of see super long term with these types of things. Yeah, whereas I think I'm now the stage where, you know, I had a blog called Melbourne gate can still get a mouse today, with companies trying to get me to review their products, like, I've had lots of different cracks of things. Yeah, and I think a lot of people, it's, again, that paradox, which is, people will stay in something too long when it's not, right. But they'll also in something way too quickly. So it's this constant balance of
using a guy instinct and understanding yourself and, and you know, what drives you. But I mean, the biggest thing with this podcast, which, what, what it's taught me is just, it is the showing up every day, it is the even, you know, over the last hundred and 27 episodes, there's definitely been times where I've thought this is a bit of a grind, but I know that it is that is the fleeting moment it's almost working out, which is the flight fleeting moment versus which is the constant and so it's the same with relationships. If you have fleeting moments of arguments and stuff that doesn't define your relationship. If the constant is you know, happiness and joy and fulfillment, then, you know, you shouldn't end something because of a fleeting moment.
Yeah, it's we what we stick at, because I don't know the equation like, I don't know why the fact we've done been able to do so many of these and you can say that it's been enjoyable and where, I don't know, it's like, I don't feel like I quite get get it. Even if I try and be logical about rock God and deconstruct it. I don't know why. It's like, yeah, it's dead. I mean, one thing, having someone else to be accountable to is so there's a bunch of different things that you can definitely important. But I still I still don't know because I could easily just go I can be fact today,
you know, show me this is, this is the thing that's interesting is, it's the, it's like when I have this moment of joy six months ago, where I started
I've been really I've always pushed back on doing my washing I was always like, always be reluctant not put it off. And I just I just started cuz my excuse was I've always got so much that I needed I've got all these big things I need to do and what I realized was doing the smallest stuff you know, it's that whole sort of piece of advice of making your bed but the thing that I came to realize was the small stuff turns into the big stuff and it's like when I was you know, do it putting my socks on the line and doing all of that sort of stuff and just being consistent with it I felt really really good and I think that it's a it's the it is focusing on the small stuff I think that with this podcast if were to use this just because everyone knows who's listening to this know about this the maybe been part of the journey I think it's been we have had pretty low expectations around it
with this again a paradox low expectations with a high idea of where it could eventually go if we just keep him putting in the work
yeah it's the
the Jordan paid us in advice clean your real man put your put your shoulders back stand up straight
that's a very good impersonation.
also costs a lot like
I've actually been thing he if he knows that he doesn't
what's coming out of it. Most of
it is actually an alien. It's because the dude speaking five hours straight per day on podcasts about serious really,
there's something a bit feeling like about anything. You know, I've been thinking about this a lot
on the podcast. I'd love to see Dan for now with me,
I feel would be definitely we're seeing it's definitely wear a wolf wolf t shirt, he'd appreciate that. Well, good
to see. You're taking a white privilege seriously.
Well, it's, it's it's hope to everyone and I think we've had
many emails coming but we we had one from Cindy my cousin, she's a she had a good morning listening on the train in Melbourne. A third last day working in Melbourne. She's just up to up to 113 so it's gonna be a while until she till she hears this one. But I'm also Sean tweeted me with this great link of it's how we in hand gestures and what they mean it's called it's it's a the secret Italian hand gestures revealed by Daily Mail.
So try want to try them out and get bread a video. It was it was a hit the one way you run your fingers underneath the chin and somebody don't do that one.
Alright, man. Oh, everyone. It's a daily talk show. Hi. The Daily talk show.com. If you've listened this far, it means that you might give us a five star review the podcast app through Apple, iTunes, all of that stuff. Just I'm curious if anyone's listening. One thing I wanted to know. Tell me if anyone's listening through the new Android Android has its own podcast app. Now he'd said that whether they do reviews but I'm curious as to if people are using it how it is what's it like even thinking about moving to an Android eventually maybe
we do that our business will crumble we
wouldn't have any I message
All right, I'll uh, I'll speak to you I really
feel like I really feel like this episode is literally recording the majority conversations that we have that aren't on the podcast This is just like Yeah, what we've been talking about every single day for the last eight months, 10 months a year
I wanted like it is interesting I think that I've probably the hard thing about doing this show and we've spoken about it is when we just I wake up in the morning and we jump into it and all that sort of thing and the difference versus just being present and I think that we can both get a big show money with it. Where where we get a bit sort of ratty
out I'll tell me what's been what's been happening tonight Oh Josh, tell me
a little tell you about miss me so wanna
well if they've got that criticism, like fuck off because this is so hard doing it remote. Yeah, exactly.
We're getting there. It's sure everyone
Love you. Bye.
Yeah, except you love you at the end. That was we his flock