Working smarter, not harder

Tommy: Wait a minute! Crossface, the Daily Talk Show, a conversation sometimes worth recording with Josh Janson and Tommy Jackett.

Josh: Episode 102.

Tommy: What up?

Josh: Yeah, still getting used to having an intro. It's good.

Tommy: It's— we've had a couple of back-to-back with back-to-back interviews, guests. Yeah, so it's nice just to be in the— just in the seat with you, buddy.

Josh: Yeah, in the same seat. We— when we do— yeah, we sit episodes on our own. Uh, I, I sit down and then Tommy sits on my lap and we swap halfway through. So when you hear a little bit of movement, yeah, that's what it is.

Tommy: I'm actually sore. My, um, my bum's really sore.

Mason: Why?

Tommy: I was just laughing at the connection between—

Josh: I got the connection.

Tommy: Yeah, uh, from the gym.

Josh: You went to the gym? Well done.

Tommy: Yeah, there this morning, and I saw this guy who— he just puts a smile on my face every time I go to the gym. And it's— he doesn't even train at the gym, but this dude has the strictest routine you've ever seen.

Josh: Wait, so he doesn't go to the gym? You saw him at the gym and he has a routine? The cleaner?

Tommy: Correct, he's the cleaner of the building that the gym is in. So I go to Fitness First in a suburb called Richmond.

Josh: Oh, now everyone's gonna bombard you out the front.

Tommy: Well, you never know, I mix it up sometimes.

Josh: That's why I don't go to the gym.

Tommy: Weekdays usually I'm there. And he cleans the building, which is like where a big furniture shop is. He doesn't actually clean the gym itself, but he cleans the rest of the building that it joins to. And I found out this morning that he's been going, he's been cleaning the building for over 20 years. And every morning he parks in this spot directly out front of the gym. He opens up his boot and in his boot he has white bread and he makes a sandwich. And so every time I walk past him, he just says hello to me. That's before I go.

Josh: Do you reckon you've become part of his routine?

Mason: 100%.

Tommy: I say, hey mate, and we quick exchange. And then I go up into the gym. So he finishes his sandwich and then he comes up.

Josh: What's in the sandwich?

Tommy: It just looked, it literally looked like a ham and cheese sandwich on white bread.

Josh: Man, there's something really therapeutic about this idea, isn't there?

Tommy: And so then he goes up into the gym to use their toilet. He grabs a paper on the way.

Josh: Is that your fucking phone again? Maybe.

Tommy: He grabs a paper on the way to the toilet. And we thought, me and my mate, well, like, he's definitely sitting down reading the paper, but he doesn't. He spends like, he's in and out, back down to the boot of his car for a cup of tea.

Josh: What's he got the paper for?

Tommy: I don't know, for after, because they give them away at the gym, so he gets a free one. So he's— but I was just thinking to myself about routine. It was funny, I was thinking about routine before I saw this dude this morning, and it's because I feel like I'm in a real, like I'm in a routine because I have to drop Bodhi off to daycare and I have to pick him up after daycare. And so it's a real structure around what I need to do at the start and the end of the day. And I've always tried to limit routine in my life. And I've worked out, I actually don't like the feeling of a real set routine.

Josh: Well, Groundhog Day.

Tommy: I feel like, yeah, I feel sometimes like I'm in a bit of Groundhog Day at the moment with picking, taking Bodhi to daycare and picking him up and then coming to work.

Josh: He can't drive himself yet.

Tommy: As soon as he can drive, mate, he's off. But what's your feelings around routine? 'Cause I know you're a bit of a— I love my coffee in the morning.

Josh: Yeah, I think I'm starting to appreciate routine. I think having travelled a little bit and done sort of longer-term travel, realised how exciting routine can be. One of my favourite books is, um, Daily Rituals.

Tommy: Ah, fuck your rituals. Here's the problem with the rituals and talking about them like this.

Josh: You get so angry.

Tommy: No, I honestly think it's because it does it half the time. You're talking about what you want your routine to be, but your routine isn't there. So I mean, like, well, no, having the—

Josh: like, so if you listen to Daily Rituals, the audiobook, it's just people talking about like pretty mundane things. So, it's not like meditation, like sometimes it could be that, but it's like literally waking up in the morning, having a coffee, going for a walk. I don't think, I can't remember who it was, but there's a lot of pushback on these routines because no one, or rituals, because no one talks about the fact that they take a dump in the morning. You know what I mean? Like that is sort of a—

Tommy: No one, none of these audiobooks or podcasts where people talk about rituals.

Josh: At 8:40, he takes a dump followed by a shower. He was the inventor of the shit, shave, and shower.

Tommy: No, no, but you know what I mean when I, when I say what— when you're talking around rituals, it's always about what you want to do, whereas people aren't really just talking about—

Josh: so a routine versus a ritual. I think ritual for me is something that can be celebrated. A routine can be a bit like sort of just doing the same thing day in, day out. I think it's very similar. I think that a ritual just allows you, adds a little bit of bloody PR rah-rah to it, to a routine, a bit of rah-rah.

Tommy: A bit of structure around this, we need to do this. A ritual is something you've held up to go, we need to fulfil this.

Josh: It's still a routine, but maybe it's got a higher meaning to it. So, are you frustrated in the fact that you've got a routine?

Tommy: Not really, but it's the first time I've started thinking that I'm closer to having this real, this really routine, meaning I, I can't veer off it. I can't not take that as a day.

Josh: Well, you would have had a routine. Like, I remember when we went up to Shepparton to celebrate, celebrate episode 50, and I, I saw a bit of nostalgia where you were out of the car park and you're walking along, you're like, oh yeah, you could hear and farm animals here and it'd be early in the morning and I'd walk. I could imagine that there's a routine that's associated, that would have been associated to that.

Tommy: A little bit, but I've always, I mean, working on breakfast radio, you can get out pretty quickly. So I might've had a meeting after the show. You do your 3 hours, sure. That's your sort of solid work for the morning until you're done. And then I could go off, go to the gym. I could come back to work. And I've always had careers and being my own boss where I can have a lot of flexibility around what I'm doing, what time I finish. And I know when I've been in the routine of the 9-to-5 job or a job that makes you, it gives you that time constraint, I felt more like, oh, but maybe I've got an aversion to these, the feeling of a routine, real strict routine.

Josh: I think flexibility is so overrated. I think that the, um, there is something in having these things set in stone. I'm gonna be here at this certain time so that you just don't have any other option.

Mason: You—

Josh: it's the paradox of choice, you know. Having more choice doesn't make life easier. Having lots of films on Netflix just means that we spend more time flicking through trying to work out what to watch on Netflix, whereas if, you know, there's this, um streaming service called MUBI. M-U-B-I.

Tommy: Where do you get it?

Josh: It's on the internet.

Tommy: It's not like a Netflix box that you can—

Josh: Netflix isn't a box.

Tommy: No, but like, say you can get it on—

Josh: you can get Stan, you can get Netflix, exactly, with Apple TV, all that sort of thing. And, um, they release— I think it's—

Tommy: how's the internet work?

Josh: We'll get someone on who can tell us about that. But no, it's a, um, It's like more premium films, so it's like ones that you'd see at film festivals. But I think only one new film comes out a day, and so the thing is that it becomes really easy to say, okay, this is what I'm going to watch, because they've curated it at a high enough level that you don't— you're not paralysed by the amount of choice. And so I think that for me, I have been seeking flexibility. But I think that there's these core rituals or routines that I really love and I want to continue to do. And it's in that space, it's like we're talking about, um, recording the podcast and things like that. And I'm starting to become more pedantic on when I'm doing stuff. So not trying not to mix things. So I'm saying, okay, if What I'm finding at the moment, and it's my own doing, is it's like I've got so much work on, but I know that I can get it all done before I go away. But with me house sitting and stuff like that, it sort of screwed up my routine a bit to the point where I'd be like, uh, I'll edit at night. So I would like stuff around during the day, which is what I used to do when I was young, stuff around during the day and then have a crunch at the end. I don't think that that's— and I think that if I had the limitation of you can't work at night, yeah, yeah, all of a sudden you just do the work during the day.

Tommy: I think the Groundhog Day stuff is scary in my mind. Thinking of like, we left the house this morning when it was dark, and I'm not unhappy with my life at all, um, it— but we left when it was dark and we'll get home when it's dark, and it's this feeling, right? And I was thinking, imagine living in London. Yeah, I had, I had that dark It only gets light at 9, gets dark at 3.

Josh: Well, that was the— I think the, um, that was the biggest struggle I had working in radio. I was on the Drive show with Fifi and Jules doing their digital content, and they, you know, would be on from 4 till 6. So that was sort of like the core time. So it was sort of, you were doing like an afternoon slash evening, but the thing is the first meeting was a production meeting at 10 AM. So then you would for me when I was living out in the burbs, I— to be able to get in 10 AM, it worked out better for me to leave home at 6:45.

Tommy: Get stuffed.

Josh: So I would get, get up at 6:45, be out the door by like quarter past 7, driving to work, getting there by 8:45, like 9 o'clock, uh, and then do work until, um, you know, have the 4 till 6 show and then edit from like 6 until 10 and then drive home and not be home until 11. And so I was doing, I was doing that for 12 months, over 12-hour days. Yeah. And so I've gotten so soft, I think, in some regards. But I think creating those routines, you just— I would do it and I get myself to be able to, uh, have that sort of, not work ethic, but just, uh willingness to do that. I need to remind myself that, hey, I'm working for myself, and I need to sometimes create those sort of limitations.

Tommy: Yeah, the limitations. I wanted to show you something that's on— so we're in our office, my office right now, and Riley works out of here.

Josh: What is that noise? Oh yeah, we've got construction going on as well.

Tommy: Yeah, there's a bit happening here, but Riley has a bag and there's a thing hanging off her bag. Riley, can you come over here? This is a bit of improv.

Josh: Oh, this is crazy.

Tommy: I just saw this the other day. So Riley's a budding young filmmaker. Hello there. And there's this thing hanging off her bag. Don't tell us what it is, but just describe what it looks like.

Riley: It's white and sort of round. It fits in the palm of your hand. So it looks like some sort of pod, do you reckon?

Tommy: Yeah, I like that. Josh, I know what it is. Yeah, I need— and I was fascinated by this when I saw it because I said, what the fuck's that? Yeah, what do you think it is?

Josh: Looks like a panic button.

Tommy: Have a look at it.

Josh: Let's look at it properly.

Mason: Okay, so it's— yeah, it's, it's white. It looks like something that you would see on, um—

Josh: oh, you know what?

Tommy: What?

Mason: I reckon what it could be is maybe like a real— a storage device for something that's really small. So, maybe some like, you could put some nuts in there or something. I don't know.

Tommy: It's definitely not, you were close to the first time.

Mason: I was thinking like, is it like a panic, either like a panic button or a way of finding your bag if you lose it?

Tommy: So, where did you buy this?

Riley: Online through Facebook.

Tommy: So, she saw a Facebook ad come up and now show Josh what it does.

Josh: Sucker. Wait, what did you just say?

Mason: Say it again.

Tommy: She said she's a sucker.

Mason: She's a sucker.

Tommy: Sucker for a dick.

Mason: I just thought she just said motherfucker.

Josh: I was like, what's?

Mason: 'Cause it was you off mic. Yeah, so you're a sucker. Let's go.

Tommy: Show Josh what it does.

Mason: All right, so Riley's holding it.

Riley: Yeah. You don't press the button. It's like a fake button here. It's like pull it.

Mason: Yeah, it's a panic. It's like a, I wouldn't wanna say it's a rape whistle though.

Riley: Yeah, that's what I would call it.

Mason: Yeah.

Tommy: So I said, what the fuck's that? She said, rape whistle. I said, what does that even mean? And so it's this thing you just attach to your bag.

Mason: Oh geez, it's so loud, isn't it?

Tommy: What a great idea.

Josh: It is an awesome idea, but it makes me sad as well that we need fucking rape whistles.

Tommy: Well, the first question I said was, have you had to use it? And you said no.

Josh: Yeah, of course. Well, I mean, I guess—

Riley: It feels safer.

Josh: Yeah, I get that. That's the thing. And I mean, it's got many more uses of like It just gives you that level of protection that if someone's like, yeah, it's sort of a no, it's, I'm sorry that you have to have a fucking rape whistle. Like that's pretty outrageous. But at the same time, I do like security. So I like, I'm on board.

Tommy: Yeah.

Riley: I read these statistics somewhere. I don't know where, so don't quote me on them. But like if someone screams for help, people are less likely to run and help you. Whereas if they sort of hear an alarm or something like that where they're like, oh, it might be a car alarm. Then they're more likely to come and see what it is. And also just like the fact that like you, from just looking at it, you don't know what it is. So if someone did attack you, they wouldn't really be able to know how to turn it off quickly. They're more likely to just like freak out and run off.

Josh: It is really good. It is a really good bit of technology.

Tommy: What is this, $30?

Riley: Yeah, about that.

Josh: And the, yeah, it does have that vibe that it looks like it could be a Tamagotchi. It could be a, it's like a GPS type thing, but also, So, it does look like you could fit like a few almonds in there as like a, but yeah, it's interesting. I remember similar—

Riley: Fashion accessory.

Josh: It is a fashion accessory.

Tommy: Except, yeah, you don't wanna have to put it to use.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: But I was fascinated by that. I thought, fuck you, you're too good. You picked it first guess.

Josh: Yeah, the panic button.

Tommy: Looks like some sort of panic button.

Josh: Yeah, it's got that vibe. But the interesting thing on the stuff around people not reacting to like help, When I was a kid, I was told, I think I've said this in a previous episode, you yell fire.

Tommy: Yeah, because people are more likely to get out of a building.

Josh: Well, they're more likely to turn around and help a fire than if you're being attacked.

Tommy: Ah, so if you're getting physically attacked, yell fire.

Josh: It's a bit confusing, isn't it?

Tommy: I think the dude attacking or the girl attacking you would be fucking confused.

Josh: Yeah, I mean, that's part of my strategy on if I am ever attacked is out crazy the crazy. Yeah, to fly, like, I've never— I get real jumpy if it's past 9 o'clock and I'm in Collingwood walking. Anyone that walks past me, I jump and I scare them.

Tommy: There's these videos online of a guy going up to these big people and picking a fight with them, and then they're like, all right, let's go. And he takes his pants off, takes his top off and his pants off, so he's got a g-string on, and they, they run off.

Josh: This is classic. This sounds like classic Tommy jacket gear from like 2008.

Tommy: Like, dude, it was from—

Josh: thanks for that, Riley.

Tommy: Thanks, Riley. But yeah, that was— I was— so there was a couple of things that I was interested in. That thing is that these people who come up with these ideas to come up with these little marketing campaigns around products that then push them out on social media, social media. Yeah, there's someone who's probably made $100 grand of selling these little—

Josh: a lot more than a lot more.

Tommy: Yeah, a lot more than $100 grand if they're pumping ads out. Yeah, it was, it was— remember my idea, um, for the whiteboard?

Josh: Was that—

Tommy: no, no, for workplaces. Yeah, because when you— as you know, you've worked in two quite large workplaces.

Josh: Three if you count the fire brigade as well.

Tommy: Three. Uh, a stamp that's a generic goodbye to put in.

Josh: Oh, that was already taken though. Is this the Is this what you're gonna—

Tommy: Generic response for people who are leaving the company. You know how there's always like some card going around the office? Hey guys, can you sign it for Tennille? She's leaving.

Josh: That was on Fuck Jerry.

Tommy: No, what, a stamp saying thanks, it's been great, Tommy.

Josh: Yeah, it's been done.

Tommy: Damn it.

Josh: It's a bit annoying, isn't it? It's a good idea though. Might be one of those, um, Yeah, I mean, that's the— I was listening to something yesterday around ideas and how ideas come about. Maybe it was even Jason Fox talking about it.

Tommy: I don't know, we've had a lot of conversations in the last few days.

Josh: Man, I am exhausted.

Tommy: From just talking?

Josh: Well, I think probably because I made the mistake of not eating today until 3 o'clock and I ate just— but it's 4:45 PM now. I decided to have something small because what I've been doing is not eating all day, then getting so hungry at like 3, eating, and then Bree saying, "Hey, what do you want to have for dinner?" And then I just end up sitting and my eyes doing that thing. Have you seen it? Can you describe to people what happens?

Tommy: So, imagine you're just blinking, but when you blink, one eye forgets to open and so it's lagged. So, one eye stays closed and then opens Very slowly.

Josh: It's like it's a sleep thing.

Tommy: It's like it got a bit stuck.

Josh: I reckon it's only been of the last few weeks that I've worked out that how important sleep is. And this is kind of, I know this is rich because you've got a kid and you got all that sort of thing, but man, what do you say? Commending anyone that's got a kid. I just, 5 hours of sleep, I feel horrendous.

Tommy: Yeah, I know what you mean. There's, you know, the entrepreneurs like Gary Vee, I saw a post of his last night and he's walking around his office. He's like, here's what they don't tell you, 11 PM, still in the office, look around, no one's here, I gotta get it done. Like he's just preaching that work and, you know, the funny thing about that is, 17-hour days.

Josh: Given that like apparently no one's telling us, he's done a lot of videos about it. Like, um, no, but I don't know, there is definitely this move. And on that ritual stuff and routines, there is a move towards work-life balance.

Tommy: Well, the saying, die— I'll sleep when I die—

Mason: is dumb.

Tommy: And so I was listening to a sleep doctor talk And he says that statement is a load of shit because in reality, the less sleep you get, the closer you are getting to dying. They're saying the statistics around how much sleep contributes to your body repairing, therefore you living a longer life, whereas I'll sleep when I die. Well, you're gonna die pretty soon.

Mason: It's so like, it's killing you.

Tommy: Lack of sleep is killing you is what this guy said.

Mason: And I think that's it. Definitely sleep is so important. Jason Fried, who wrote the book Rework, he has a successful company called Basecamp, which is a project management tool that a lot of companies use. Yeah, so you can upload assets into it. It's a way of like interfacing with clients or collaborators, things like that. But his book Rework was all about saying no to meetings, all of this sort of stuff. Some of the things that, uh, Dr. Jason Fox talked about yesterday around things like email and expectations, but he's got a book coming out in October called It Doesn't Have to Be Crazy at Work, which is all about this stuff, which is around that you don't have like this, you know, he's got a bit, the hardcover says 80-hour weeks, fully packed schedules, super busy, endless meetings, all-nighters, Sunday afternoon emails, unrealistic deadlines.

Josh: He's just got a big crossroad because I think that there's— and, um, it's been—

Tommy: do you think these guys who are writing— and this is me being cynical— do you think these guys writing this stuff and all of these people having these revelations around how to approach work have worked their ass off and earned their place and now are reflecting on success they've accumulated, which That's why it's like, you know, we were discussing and I love it when I know what you've been reading because it's almost what you— how you talk to me because it's the things I've been thinking.

Josh: I think that what happens is I have a thought and then I'm like, I— what most people do, they then pull from where they're having this sort of stuff.

Tommy: Yeah, I mean, telling someone what you're reading like almost verbatim helps you digest and really it's like teaching someone else something, helps you learn about that subject.

Josh: Keeping in mind this stuff like, yeah, what were you going to say?

Tommy: I was going to say it's nice to know because it was like when we're talking about recording on a Saturday, doing some podcasts for when you're gone.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: And you're giving me pushback.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: And it makes sense though, and I get it because there is—

Josh: Keep in mind that this Jason Fried rework I read like 7 years ago.

Mason: So it's—

Josh: I think that it's cyclical, right? You see, and I think that what's happened is it's like I've gone through these cycles and I'm saying now I'm like, oh, you know what, I think that one of the default— I see this default setting which is hard work, hustling, all that sort of thing.

Riley: Yeah.

Josh: And it's pushing, it's pushing back on that. And there's lots of different, you know, Deep Work is another book that talks all— talks a lot about this stuff. Essentialism is another one. We've spoken about on the podcast, you know, um, the importance of actually, uh, you know, having a system to be able to prioritise and not just say yes to everything.

Tommy: I totally agree. I mean, it And sometimes it's just hard to actually put it in place. For instance, when I had my personal training business, I didn't work Friday nights and I didn't work Saturdays or Sundays, but I was like, I purposely didn't, and I managed to, and some days I'd be like, okay, absolutely hammered. I'm not working Wednesdays. My point being, you block out some times and all of your work ends up pushing towards the times that you have available. And it was a real, it was an appointment-based business.

Mason: Yeah.

Tommy: And but if you look at that for something like what we do, if we just blocked out times, I think it'll work.

Josh: I think like Parkinson's Law says that we will fill up the time that we allocate to something. And so, and I've seen it so many times, like I will before I get— So for people who don't know, who have just started listening over the last few episodes.

Tommy: Yeah.

Mason: Hey.

Tommy: Hi.

Josh: First of all, thanks for listening to the Daily Talk Show. But I'm heading to Europe for 3 months with my girlfriend, Bree. At the end of June.

Tommy: Yeah, and Josh is a trust fund baby. He's, uh, no, he's worked his ass off.

Josh: The trust is the Josh Jansen Productions for us. No, the, um, yeah, so we're, we're going away, and, uh, so I've got to finish all these jobs off so I've sort of got a clean slate while I'm away. And I can already see, it's so funny how I'll be working up until like probably a week before, but I've like timed it out. Like I've just naturally not even intentionally done that. And so I think that it's the same with some of these things where it's like, rather than— I think that if people are pushing back and saying, nah, that doesn't— that's not how you, you know, it's not how you win at life and all that sort of thing, I think it's about what are you prioritizing.

Riley: Yeah.

Josh: And so for me, I think about weekends and I'm like, okay, well, it's about like, if we take deep work as an example, so it's like having allocated times where you're focusing on specific goals or tasks versus trying to multitask and context switch constantly, it means that you can give more quality time to the things that are important.

Tommy: Yeah, I was just thinking, for entrepreneurs out there, a lot of them are, um, it depends. So for instance, if we see ourselves as entrepreneurs, we we have this skill set that when we put it in, putting it into practise is actually filming something, actually editing something, and everything in between is like running the business. And so entrepreneurs that are working 16 hours a day, if they're not a chef within the business, not that, you know, they're an entrepreneur in the food space, they're not gonna be spending 16 hours a day cooking.

Josh: So it's like there is a lot of time in between Yeah, you know, like, I think that the reason I've probably been thinking about it a lot is look at the last two guests that we've had on, two people that we respect, Dr. Jason Fox, Hamish Blake. And what are the— like, they're not talking about how much money they're making, they're talking about what they're doing with their time and the currency of time. And at the end of the day, that's all we have. And Uh, the reality is that when, um, you know, I've had friends who have had decent amounts of success and they say, the thing is, Josh, when you get to, to $15 million, you want $25 million or $30 million. This, this— if, if that is the metric that you're using to see value within your life, it's going to constantly keep switching. But the thing that we all have is time. And so for me, I still have the ambition to be financially well off and being able to do those things, but at first I want to— I have this time economy, you know. If we think about we've got time, for me it's like if I use those foundation, you know, this sort of foundational time to make sure that I'm allocating the right amount of time to things, it means that when I start having varying levels of success or things end up happening, I default to I'm going to make time for Bray and I on that. Like, these are the structures that's already created.

Tommy: Yeah, I get it. I mean, it can just go out the window though, can't it?

Josh: Well, I think that's the thing.

Mason: The—

Josh: I heard a, uh, someone talk about— I can't remember which— what book it was, but they were talking about the, the idea of Habits. And what they were saying is when we're stressed, people assume that we go to bad— they talk about bad habits. So they say when you're hyper-stressed, so you have— they were using a study with, uh, teenagers who were doing exams. And so there's this theory that if you're stressed, then you go towards these bad habits, you know, you start like eating poorly and all that sort of thing. But what these studies were saying was that we actually just go to these default foundational habits, these things that are like inbred into how we do it. So for instance, young people who grew up, who built structure and habit around eating healthy snacks when they're stressed actually would fall back to eating healthy snacks. And people who would eat a whole chocolate cake, a.k.a. JJ, would eat a whole cake. And so that's— I think that, that the, the idea of habit formation and rituals isn't for right now. It's for when everyone's asking for your time. It's that thing of the person with the plan will win. If you don't have a plan, if you don't have a schedule, someone else is going to set the schedule for you. So might as well get in there first and say these are the things that are important. And then it's easier for you to say yes and no. If you know that every Tuesday between 7:00 AM and 8:00 AM you're getting coffee with your partner or whatever it is, it'll just like, it'll become an expectation and it'll be built in and you'll build upon that.

Tommy: There isn't too many entrepreneurs that are just going, mate, 6 hours a day, that's all I worked and I did it.

Josh: Yeah, well—

Tommy: 'Cause it's not as flashy as Gary Vee. It's not the struggle part of the narrative, that sort of grinding, this is actually hard, you know, this is how hard we work.

Josh: Well, I think the problem is that everything is a paradox as well. So it's like, I think people take that and take the wrong parts of it. But I feel like I want to, um, it's that cliché of working smarter rather than harder. And I think that there is like these things that we can do. Like, I know that when I multitask, I take way longer doing things. So what about actually blocking out these times and working smarter that way?

Tommy: Well, we've got some stuff happening together in the future in the business space. I think there, and no point in talking about it now, but I think that we should test out some rules.

Mason: Yeah.

Tommy: Some of the, like make them, 'cause if I've got you saying, nah, you're not allowed to do that, we're not allowed to work these days.

Josh: Well, I think it's about coming across like, using whatever you want to call it, filters that like, these are the things that are important to us. And so, if family is the number one priority, then it becomes easier to say, okay, well, if the— it's aligning our intentions, our values, what's important with us, with our actions and constantly cross-checking. And that's even when it comes to decisions around the types of work. I think that there is this— we romanticise doing shit work. It's almost like we need to be in pain to, to be rewarded. And I would like to challenge this idea and say, okay, well, what happens if you do the stuff that you want to do? I think there's a lot of people who are doing the jobs that they don't want to do right now because they think they've told themselves a storey that the only way they're going to make the money or be successful is to do the shit work. I don't think that that's always true.

Tommy: Yeah, I agree. And then when you see the person doing what they want to do, everyone's like, oh shit, that asshole.

Josh: I think that's the hardest bit. I think the hardest bit is, I think there's a shit tonne of ways to make money, but there, it's that whole quote, you have the same amount of time that Beyoncé has. That's the thing, it's like time is like—

Tommy: it's not the booty and I can't dance like her.

Josh: It's very true. Uh, but yeah, I think so. I think that that's an important thing to be thinking about, which is like— and I have moments where I just see people who might not have a super luxe life, simple, but they're using their time. They're like—

Tommy: and it's also someone having accountability. You know, if you're doing it with somebody, like, I think that's the power of you and I doing this stuff, is like having someone that you've talked about this stuff with. Yeah, even just vocalising it. Like, if you've not spoken about these kind of things with anybody, talking about them with somebody—

Josh: and it's a friction point too, right? So I think that the, the difficulty is, is, um, you know, when you're working on your own it's an internal struggle. It's a conversation that you have to have with yourself. And I think that it's very hard to look at it objectively when it's all happening internally. When you say it across the table to someone, you're seeing the words, the words, you're seeing the words, you're seeing ze words, you know, come across. And so you can analyse them better and you can sort of see, like my favourite thing to ask at the moment is like, what are my blind spots?

Tommy: Yeah, you have said that.

Josh: I know, because I—

Tommy: Behind you, you can't see that.

Josh: It's true, I just need to take my glasses off.

Tommy: He's wearing one of those helmets that has a little mirror coming off the helmet so he can see behind it.

Josh: I really believe that like the most empowering thing we can do is asking people like, what are my blind spots? Like, where can I improve? Because I realise like if we accept the fact that we do have some blind spots then it allows us to improve. And it also puts people in a position where they can tell us things that, you know, they could— they feel comfortable in saying those things. And it's coming from a place where it's like, tell me— not tell me why I'm wrong, but just like realising that like maybe I'm missing a part of this, this puzzle. But yeah, it's, it's interesting. I think that it's about putting the values into place and then just filter every single time you're doing it. I think that so many times we do these things as a default. We say yes to a job, uh, not because it's aligned with our vision, but because we think it's the only way that we can make money and survive.

Tommy: I wonder if the dude who's at the gym making his sambo from Wonder White Bread at the back of his car, he's probably really happy. I hope he is. He seems like such a happy guy. Oh, hey mate, hey!

Josh: It's probably all the, the cleaning chemicals and the sugar from the white bread.

Tommy: But he's lovely. I hope he's happy. I mean, it's super easy for me to look at him and think it's a bit sad because it's not my world. And I, you know, it's like, well, everyone had—

Josh: but this is the, the, all this stuff that like we're talking to Jason about yesterday, it's like, it's a bit of a mindfuck because you, um, yeah, you realise that, uh, we all have different realities. Yeah. And so, and there's lots of different truths and all that sort of thing. So that guy could be the, it's like that classic case of like third world kids being so fucking happy. Yet like the kid in Brighton is like so discontent and so unhappy because their PlayStation's not working.

Tommy: A good thing for me that I've had sort of looking at that and me looking at some guy like the dude who I bump into and thinking, oh, it's a bit sad. It's not sad. He's, he seemed happy and he probably is happy. What I'm saying is I would be sad in that routine because I know I don't like routine. And it's like looking at anyone else's success can be hard on you.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: And you think, oh, look at that guy succeeding, he's got all that money or whatever, but probably his life wouldn't suit you because it's not you.

Josh: Well, there's a level of comparison which I think is probably not great, but it's also— it's, uh, allowing yourself not to be judgmental of others, which allows you to maybe give yourself a break. And realising that, um, these— what these things that we've set up in society, that what success looks like, that success is You know, success is doing the thing that you wanna do and being happy and using the time in the way that you think. And like, yeah, not everyone can be doing, having a creative business and doing, you know, the stuff that we do. And like, that's fine. We're no better. Like there's people, there's sporting stars, there's Hollywood, there's so many different varying levels of success. I feel super lucky because I'm just doing the shit that I want to do and that I love doing. But it's always that double-checking on just asking yourself, is this what I wanna do? And I think having that filter is a good way of saying, okay, these are the things, like in a left column, these are the things that are important to me and these are my actions and making sure that they actually are aligned.

Tommy: Line up. Just bringing it back to the routine, I've got to go pick up my son. It's 5 o'clock.

Josh: I've got to, uh, I gotta get the boy. Yeah, it's The Daily Talk Show, everyone. Send us an email, hi@thedailytalkshow.com, and please leave us a review on the podcast app of your choice, which is probably iTunes.

Tommy: Yeah, I'm gonna now— so I'll only be there for 24 hours— put the, um, the thing on Riley's bag I'll put a little video up onto the Daily Talk Show's Instagram account.

Mason: Okay, that was just so people go to our Instagram. Yeah, of the rape whistle.

Josh: Yeah.

Mason: All right. So, that was—

Tommy: I don't want to say the name. It's very dark. Riley's giggling.

Mason: All right, catch ya.

Josh: Have a good one.