0:04
It's the daily Talk Show Episode 753.

0:08
Welcome to the show. Crystal Andrew.

0:13
This is my third time Yeah. On the shot. To be honest, I've not been on ash Williams.

0:20
I think he's done for the show. So all you need is more than four because he's I'm pretty sure he's refused to come back on the show. You are the replacement, I believe

0:26
across the coals but I think you are the replacement for

0:33
just as much influence as ash Williams. Yeah. I mean, I'm getting there.

0:39
So first of all, I was on your podcast that hasn't been released yet. I want to listen. When's it coming out? Yeah. When does it come out? And what is it called?

0:48
It's coming out this month. This month fans are quickly I can move and it's called debatable, which is very on brand for me, because you

0:57
wrote a book all about how to win any argument? And so the whole debate thing makes sense. But you were telling me on the show that when you left our studio after being a guest on our show, you were in tears. I didn't actually was I didn't actually go into the like the action. I think it caught me off guard that I didn't actually ask, why

1:24
was it me?

1:26
It was like it was something you said.

1:30
This was when I was on the show in January 2020, which I know Josh, we also had a conversation about how that felt like it was two years ago and no

1:40
joke. Five months ago, Josh had mentioned that it was this year. That is ridiculous. I sort of photo of us we just posted recently a photo of our scene. It was one of the first sort of shows in our studio, which was only last year I was thinking, imagine if we knew what was ahead. Like what You'd be thinking it's such a weird time to look back on moments just before the world is sort of gone a bit chaotic and thinking about what what what our head what our headspace, so naive and that was just what six not even six months ago and

2:12
so six months ago, you were you were in Melbourne, you live in Sydney, you come on the show. Why you in tears.

2:22
A few factors went into this. Firstly, it was pretty It was a hectic day. So I'd flown in in the morning, had sort of meetings all day, came to do the show with you guys and then got straight on a cab back to the airport to fly back to Sydney that night. So it's a it's kind of a long day. And by the time I got home, it was maybe eight o'clock. But as soon as I left the studio, I started thinking about everything that I had said, and I've just gone to fucked it up. Sound like I sounded like an idiot. I can't believe it. And then you have you know, it's a relatively long journey from Melvin city to the airport. So you have a lot of time just to think about But on the phone to my boyfriend told him what's happened from He's

3:03
like, Where are they? What's the address?

3:05
He's like, I'm sure you're fine. Flying the flight back by the time I walked into the apartment, I was honestly in tears and he's just gone. Obviously, you know? I'm sure it's not that bad. I'm sure you did fine. And you know, look, you've just got to put yourself out there and try these things. It's not always going to be perfect. But by the time we listened to the episode The next day, it was, it was obviously fine. Yeah, just just was the most bizarre, the most bizarre disconnect between what had actually happened. And what I thought had happened was completely Yeah, it was insane.

3:40
What was the first podcast? Was that your first?

3:43
Yeah, that was Well, that was my first podcast as a guest on my own. And I think it's the video. I think it's the video that really threw me. I mean, obviously, I knew that it would be you know that it was being recorded on video, but it's just a crazy experience and Josh, when you recorded my podcast, and I told you cuz there was a video feed, but I said, Look, don't worry about the video. It's it's just so we can see each other it's not being recorded. You kind of went Oh, okay. Yeah, I can't really show

4:14
just like, like on my head like my foreheads a bit shiny. Is there anything that we can do? Do you think as a podcast to help guests through the experience that you had?

4:29
I mean, the one thing that I think I've requested almost every time I've been on your podcast except for this is questions. I want

4:37
to know the question Sorry.

4:39
Sorry.

4:41
That's just, that's just what I'm used to. I guess in other you know, the kind of media you get, like a couple of prompt questions. So it was a very unfamiliar feeling for me to go into something, having an idea of what you might ask but not having a few questions that I knew were coming that I knew that I would be able to handle kind of Arctic And then in my head as well, knowing that you guys don't edit the the episodes. In my head, I was thinking like, Don't say anything you're unsure about if you're unsure, don't say it, because that might take it out.

5:15
Well, it's a skill to even become sort of self filter it not even sell filtering, but just like, when you how how, how much do people in everyday life roll into something they have no idea about just because someone's asked them. And it's because you feel sort of obliged to answer the question, which is what you're saying it's, but then that's a skill in itself to sort of stop and go, you know, I don't have every answer about what you're talking about. So I'll come back to you on that.

5:41
I wonder how much of it is because you feel like you're representing something like that. So for us when we do the show, it's like, we're not really representing big causes or anything like that. Like, how much of it do you think is that you're talking about big topics and you know, Want to fuck that up?

6:01
That is a big part of it and went like even this is much more relaxed than that episode right because I've got this book called How to win every argument so people expect that you have the answers, right? So that's just kind of a bit of a nerve wracking experience, I guess. But it's um, it was a What do they call it trial by fire? Oh, yeah. Well,

6:24
don't worry my mom when she came on the podcast for the first time, she did cried as you did crystal. She said she was up. She like woke up middle of the night, just like Brian taking over couldn't stop thinking about what she'd spoken about because it's a blur. Yeah, the time you sort of walk out, you're like, wow, what what happened there? You will I enjoy your company so much. And I enjoyed. I feel like that day we were sort of, yeah, ask new questions based on the understanding of the book you'd written and, and sort of taking that assumption, which you are a much smarter person than Josh and I so it is an interesting one, when people leave On the someone being a smarter version, it's like, you know, I don't want to be the smartest in the room pretty, pretty safe to say it's never gonna happen.

7:09
So do you think there is a sense of like, I think I've gotten comfortable with being wrong, and like being a gronk, I think allows us permission to have a crack, have a swing, just try like it but you know, get do a bunch of things. And then if it doesn't work out, then we apologise or we try something else. Do you think that you have a relationship with being right?

7:35
Here hugely, hugely. I don't like filing. And I don't like being wrong. And I think I've been that way since I was a pretty young kid. My mom will tell you that so yeah, it's just it's just a bit I mean, I obviously enjoyed the experience enough to keep coming back. Yeah,

7:52
I mean, what you just said there though, is like it's the was it introverted person who ends up being becoming a performer. You really leaning into it because writing a book which you can't change the text because it's printed,

8:09
and the about that I was like, Yeah,

8:11
like that, like you are setting yourself up at a at a, you know, you're positioning yourself to say this is what I think. I mean, what is that feeling like? Because I mean, we sort of, we haven't written a book, we haven't had to cement our thoughts in a in a specific way, because we can come back tomorrow and say, You know what, I was totally wrong about yesterday. I guess we're also not a keepers of infant like big important information, or like we will, I guess, with what you're doing with the fake you've, you're setting this expectation that you are a platform to educate to inform. And that I guess, is like a big responsibility.

8:49
Yeah, there's an expectation that what we bring forward is going to be vetted and have quality and have some substance. I guess you'd be writing something That is going to be in Princeton that you can't sort of necessarily retract. Like, I'm more comfortable with that, because I've worked in media and I've worked as a journalist. So like, you just get used to that feeling of making it as, you know, watertight as you possibly can. But at some point, and I think this is what you guys are fantastic app, it's like, you need to whatever the work is you're creating, make it as good as it can be, but at some point, you have to put it out into the world. So you can't keep working on it until it's perfect, because a it will never be perfect. And B that means no one will ever see it and then you haven't done anything.

9:35
I mean, there's there's a difference in people's approaches. Like I feel like I've become a bit of a sicko with like putting, willing to put something out like the even the 20 videos that I did across four across the month. got to a point where I was like, I know there's problems with this, but I'll put Yeah, yeah, what she said then I was sort of like, leaning into the feeling of it not being right, which I see is a strength for a certain point of time. But I think it Yeah, it's it's it is positive in some aspects. I mean for you You said it's been since you were young liking to be right i think you know, it's quite common. What is what has it shifted in the last couple of weeks for you if it if it has just with some of the attention that has come to the brand you're building, how are you feeling about it,

10:23
it's been five days, it's pretty much been awake that the the account has just exploded. And I'm just trying to be more careful about the content that is meant to be informative and attitude being like very careful about that. But then, not having not putting out five posts a day say that are meant to be like very educational and very informative. It's like put out one really dense piece of work and then do some other things that are a little bit more light and don't require you to kind of like put your everything into it is like the only The way that I've kind of figured out how to management manager in the last week but asked me again in a month will probably be completely different. Can you

11:07
tell us the story? I don't think we've really gotten the story of z feed. I feel like it's one of those things where watching it. build momentum and seeing people outside of our circle. I think Bree shared it from a tiger or things like this. And she's like, and then I was like a crystal. I mentioned your n, I said z fate. Embrace like, Oh, it's crystal z is that z fade? Like I love that it's completely gone outside of our circles, and it's sort of become its own thing. Can you talk us through how you developed it? What it's what it's looked like, over the last few months how you've built it?

11:49
Yeah, well, it actually started before even the book. My youngest sister is 10 years younger than me. So she's a Gen Z, and I'm a millennial. way but we're like quite similar in personality, I would say so we, you know, talk a lot she lives in Perth my family, but we talk a lot on the phone about sort of where she and her friends consume news, which is pretty much just on social media so they don't like you know, seek out, they wouldn't necessarily know that that we're reading news on ABC or Sydney Morning Herald or Daily Mail or news calm like they don't really know the destination, they're reading it, they're just getting a story in f8 and clicking a link or swiping up or writing a headline or whatever. And just taking that at face value, which was super interesting and as someone who works in media, also very concerning,

12:41
but also I think lightly know where it's coming from. It feels like that is the standard approach like we've spoken about that a lot which is just like discovering Oh, hang on this. This consumption this the way that I'm consuming, his is broken. I feel like that is such a big piece in in all of this

13:00
Yeah, hugely. And also because the, I guess the origin and the reason fuzzy fade is the same as the book, which is that if you just come to a story that has been, you know, ongoing before you got there. News is what is new and what is noteworthy. So it's not going to go back and explain a news article is not going to necessarily explain all of the backstory before you got to that point. Because the expectation is that you have you have already kept up with it if you're reading this, you know, if you're reading this article, so originally z fade, why it's called z fade is, is it was supposed to be for Gen Z's mostly young women, to kind of like help them break down those stories and be a more accessible point of like explaining the background behind the story so that they could go and consume other news with like a little bit more context. But now that there are so many more people following and rating what we're putting out, I think I'm going to expand that to notch Being Gen Z and the interest in issues but social media generation is how I'm putting it. And then that is broad enough to kind of encapsulate, you know, anyone who self identifies as someone who gets most of their news and content and opinion pieces and hot text from social media, which is like pretty much all of us, I'd probably say,

14:23
Oh, yeah, I mean, how much time are you thinking about the feed? Average week? Is it something you really consuming?

14:34
A lot? Yeah. Yeah. And getting the balance right between consuming content to see what other people are doing versus actually do it like creating your own content and output fuzzy fade is something that I really struggle with. So easy like you pick up your phone and you start scrolling and before you know it, like 15 minutes have gone you have done anything. You've just sat there and kind of passively like consumed stuff. It's a very weird it's a vortex

15:00
I recognise a German, but behind the news behind the news

15:06
that roll out the telly on the Yeah, on the thing, the library. Yeah,

15:11
the library would like record it. Like it would be on ABC or whatever and they record it and then they would apply it and it was like a critical look at the news like with like, for free for younger people. I mean, in some ways, like I see z feed being a little bit of that, which is like I don't think that that needs to go away. I don't think that like the answer to being adults is complicated stuff shit, like we actually need to be simplifying to then be able to be critical. Is that like, Is that part of it?

15:45
Yeah, literally behind the news for adults. They should just keep watching. Yeah, so funny. You say that because a guy I went to high school with who came across the fade this week in all of the attention that we've been getting, was just messaging me and saying like, I'm just saying this amazing like so. So what are you doing? And I explained it to him and he actually said, Oh, so it's like behind the news for adults. HSI like they still apparently they still make on the news and really still watch it in school. Yeah.

16:14
I love that kin kin if you ever do sort of a video series, can we please make you some intro sequence where a trolley wheels out an old Telly? And then like the teacher, and then the fee comes up and then it starts to show I could

16:27
I could even imagine like a stunt where it's like, you know, putting TVs around. I mean, once public places can actually be open. This is like a guerilla marketing tactic.

16:42
Yeah,

16:42
you just I mean it's getting very inside baseball. I love that. And so is the feed the Have you got like a roadmap with it? Like I noticed that you're very specific, insane way, which like it actually just Is that is that uh, is that intentional? Because you really want it to be more than you?

17:06
Yeah, definitely. Definitely. And the you know, looking ahead that is the plan is to have people who also feed into this and for it not to just be me even though it is me right now. And I also don't want it to necessarily be attached to me personally because I think it has something like that has more potential to grow beyond just those who might identify with me because of, you know, who I am or how I look or you know what I think it's not really about that even though I'm the one driving it right now. So for now, keep saying way, but I love it. It's a bit weird. It's like a bit meta, sometimes more meaning royal the Royal way.

17:51
For brands like vos start out as a person coming out with something or a team. I mean, this way you can say way but I mean, we just went we went full hog and just wait it big media company you know, it's just Josh and I, and look at us now thousand employees.

18:07
Yeah, it was it was pushing back on the the idea of what big media means, right like you can have you can be a small operation have big impact.

18:18
Something fun in the story to small businesses coming together to form a big media company is the sort of fun little story behind the business. I mean, just before we jumped on, we were talking about the little tools and strategies, people with Instagram accounts that received some attention to the you can do to sort of curate some of the trolls away from the feed. I mean, when we start I remember Jules LAN was doing something called blocked the troll you would have been working with

18:50
us What was it like? It was just I think, I think across the board, it was just like a bat like, don't engage with specifically around there was a few cases of so Aside with a high profile people, media people and yeah, there was a big push at that time around just block. Yeah

19:09
just block and so now there's a bunch of tools that you can use to sort of let you know that that won't I guess crystal you can explain it the one about so you're not sort of like getting them all the noise rate restricted rates.

19:22
Yeah, well, that's what I've been doing for a few, a few little trolls that have been popping up. You can restrict them so that they can still see your profile see your content, and they can still comment on it but they're the only people that can say their own comment and you know, if you approve it, then everybody else can say it, okay. But if you don't approve it, it stays it's like only visible to them, which I think is fine. My my opinion on that is, it's better because sometimes I think if you block them, they obviously know that you've blocked them because they can't see you anymore. And if they really want to troll you, they'll just make another account. find you. It And come back. And then I think as well people saying, like, why did you block me you deleting my comments that makes other people think like, Oh, well what did this guy say and, you know, kind of gives it a little bit more volume and validity than it needs to have. Whereas if they are not aware of the fact that no one else can say them, it's probably just takes the air out of it. And then also, the problem that I was having was like, people were trolling and just saying dumb, like deliberately inflammatory stuff. And then well meaning people would jump on their comments and reply and like, you know, get really passionate and hated about it, which was just like surfacing at hiring in the comments. So like, the goal was to not have people reply to the trolls, so you just have to hide them. Always jump in and like you know, and try to stop the the argument.

20:49
It's an interesting one, a friend of mine, her company that she works for they they did a post about Black Lives Matter. One of the people who regularly comment on the content that they do, had said, hashtag all lives matter with like a love heart. And the thing is, this guy is someone who is always extremely supportive, but potentially just a little bit naive to the whole thing. And it was interesting that Yeah, misguided. And the interesting thing was, the person that was managing the social media account of this business is an African American, and he wrote back, thank you with a love heart. And it was interesting because then my friend got, you know, dm saying, hey, you're sort of, I think you you guys missing the mark by responding this blah, blah, blah. I just think it opened up an interesting conversation around You know, for for the social media manager that was writing back who's African American, he's like, Look, I'm experiencing things every single day. It was just a battle that I don't necessarily didn't necessarily think that I needed to take on. What do you think crystal in regards to public perception in this so because when we write back to people, we are sort of putting a level of a vote against something or we're sort of revealing how we feel about something through replying to comments.

22:36
Yeah, I learned pretty quickly that you can even I've never gone viral before. And this definitely was in the realm of being viral. So one of the, like, the funny things is that you know, when you go into notifications on Instagram, and it tells you like, you know, it's like this number of likes this number of comments or whatever, but then in the feed, they're just like in chronological order. I could say that there were comments, but I couldn't even like grab them in the notifications fair to say what they were. So I'd have to go on to the post and I kind of hunt hunt for them. And I think that was maybe a good thing because I ultimately just had to give up even trying. And that stopped me from engaging with it and like kind of giving it any extra oxygen. So in terms of things that go like really crazy and get really big, I think you just you can't anyway, like you might be able to get the first few and engage if you want to, but after that, you kind of just have to let it go. Which I never really understood before this. I don't know. I I think broadly, I'm against deleting comments. Unless they really are, you know, violent or very aggressive. I'd probably just defer to like leaving, restricting if I needed to and just not engaging. What about if there

24:00
From what you can tell is an anonymous page for followers, or not even following 20 and zero followers, that kind of thing. What do you think about anonymous accounts?

24:12
Depends on their set. Like it depends on a, well if it is negative, if it's negative, but it's not really, you know, if it's negative, but it's not really like, aggressive or violent. I probably just leave it because also like, I don't know that someone just didn't start their Instagram like today. And so, you know,

24:28
let's be unkind Christina Optus this week, last week, so are they What happened? They got served a subpoena to give over the information of a anonymous user. That was that commented a negative review on a teeth whitening business, which is huge like this is a lot of the time you you can be anonymous online. You can, you know, comment on news Comdata you articles as Jeff has are actually Bob fuzzy servi? Well, it was it was so so I don't know, because I didn't post it. But they this lawyer wants the anonymous users information to launch a defamation case. So it must have been something that sort of was throwing shade at the business in a very negative manner. But I mean, if this goes through this is pretty this is new. Well, that there's been those cases where

25:26
competitors of businesses have gone in and done big slams of reviews and then have off the back been sued. So I mean, you're across any of that.

25:36
Yeah, so they actually already is there they already awesome, very interesting precedents in place. More specifically to like media law. So fun fact, did you know that if the Sydney Morning Herald posts a link to one of their articles on Facebook, which of course I do, every single day and say it's about Tommy jacket, you some exciting story about him. If I make a comment on Facebook on the post of that article saying something defamatory about Tommy, what would you say if you had to? But genuine you know maybe maybe I would say that the TGI daily videos actually using child labour to be produced. Oh,

26:29
Georgie boy does help at it. Yeah, right.

26:34
Chocolate yeah

26:38
Remember to use kit I only had the kid for one episode.

26:44
God this is great. Yep.

26:45
So if I left that comment, you can sue the Sydney Morning Herald for my comment me as a member of the general public and they actually is already upgraded and a decision has already been made that The Sydney Morning Herald is In under Australian law, considered to be the publisher of that comment, even though the comment was made on Facebook, not on their own site, so that that's relatively new sort of development in that space. Obviously, publishers are pushing back pretty hard against it because it's wearing sort of unusual waters where anybody can comment on anything that's public on Facebook, but are the right people being held liable for it?

27:30
Well, I think like when I was at Southern Cross out stereo, when there was the infamous royal prank that led to a suicide and there was a bunch of comments that were written based on that. There was a 24 hour seven day a week team and that were like, me being on that team that had to go through all the social networks, and monitoring and real time deleting. This does bring up the point around what Twitter did a couple of weeks ago, where they sort of did a bit of fact checking which Trump then did it what what does he call it is he uses his presidential order around social media moving from being a platform to being a publisher, which was more in line with that.

28:22
So the platforms would So Facebook could be liable. Yeah.

28:25
So at the moment, Facebook, Twitter, they're all considered platforms, and so that they're sort of people can write content on there, and they're not responsible. Twitter is playing a dangerous game around editorialising or adding commentary around tweets. And you know, I guess it's the, the head of ethics or whatever it is within Twitter that's making that call what's what's your take on it, Crystal?

28:55
Yeah, it's like, I made a terrible analogy during the week. I'm just saying like, To remember it, but it's what it's whether Twitter is a microphone, which people are using to say things, or whether Twitter is a newspaper. And that's kind of the distinction. So if they adjust a microphone, the microphone is not responsible for what comes out of it. It's the person, but if they are deemed to be, which is, from what I understand this is what Trump is trying to shift the laws to reflect them as a publisher, which would Yes, say them see in line with what made your organisations have to, I guess do in terms of like fact checking and making sure that what they're representing is the truth, where I think they actually see it. I don't know, I'm inclined to think that they are more of a platform because it's also a little bit like how far does that go? I completely understand fact, checking Trump's tweets, but how can you then start to fact check every single tweet I made on Twitter

29:58
and isn't that also of shifting the power in saying like there's a difference between being a venue so being like our Trump, you can use our venue to speak and then having a venue that after he speaks will go up and then say their opinion about what they think like I just think it's even though Trump is completely outrageous, obnoxious and debt, you know, dangerous in the way that he communicates. I think that setting a precedent that some dude or woman or whoever it is in Twitter is or group of people is making a call Yeah, on an editorialising and saying, Hey, this is here are three points that we found I mean, there are essentially is a fading it but there's a big fucking difference between being z fade which is creating editorial content to help communicate different perspectives versus Actually like being a platform? Yeah.

31:03
Oh yeah, for sure. It's almost like I'm trying to figure out whether Trump I mean, this is things get very political when I come on his show.

31:11
I'll be crying.

31:13
No tears.

31:17
It's not defamation. It's true that

31:21
the A's hate an ad it is a genius because he has gone outside of the existing structures of how a president would normally communicate, which would go through all of these layers of fact checking right, but he's just kind of gone. Fuck it. I'm just gonna keep tweeting like I have been, you know, before I was president, I'm just gonna keep doing that because the seats outside of the, you know, the restrictions and structures of the White House and they can't really do anything about

31:51
it. I mean, it is a meme page. That can you know, that builds a 20 million following a genius or to

31:59
someone He's like, Jerry.

32:03
Jerry knew how to game the system. Trump is quite genius in relation to get his gamified social media, like he knows how to work people's emotions and like, like, it's it's crazy what he's able to do.

32:18
The shame it doesn't have to be right. Yeah. Other people think it then they will. They'll back him on that. And,

32:25
you know, the funny thing is like, we don't we don't live in the US, but it feels like it does consume a lot of the narratives that end up coming across into Australia. The political system, I feel like I know more about the US political system than I do in Australia. Biden, I just feel like it's this weird one because he seems like so average like just so like I it's this frustrating thing where it's like, Okay, you've got Trump who is out rageous just all of the negatives, but then you've got someone who does it who seems like a little bit spineless. Or maybe it doesn't have the qualities of a leader or and then compare him to

33:13
Obama. Yeah. So Trump and Obama characters in their own and then Biden yeah if you look at the last two presidents and then you go to Biden

33:23
just a bit just a bit boring. I mean, what's the is that the danger in all of this that what do we what do we need from from leaders? Can elite a be boring?

33:34
Well, you could almost say the same about just Cinder done as well, like she, I mean, she's obviously not the same kind of show showman as Trump is, but it's almost like way what we need latest to be a little bit more than we need them to be leaders and not just politicians.

33:53
They need to have a little bit of theatre to them.

33:56
I love I love just because she seems like the 30 something that, you know, like, I feel like the relatability of her is that she could be, you know, my cousin's mate. And I had a drink with I wanted the power, but like, even just her doing this sort of live streams at home. Yeah, the normality of it. And the relatability of it was what sort of, I thought was the point of difference at that point. It's like someone who's leading a country is just someone But Joe Biden is a different vibe to the normal. He's just basic,

34:30
but then Skomer was the substitute teacher, or, you know, the grumpy dad who's just like, you know, telling people laugh and doing all that. And so, it's hard though, because, like, I guess, do personalities reflect?

34:48
policy?

34:52
Great question.

34:54
He just liked how Ron

34:57
was actually quite right. Yeah, I get it. Yeah,

35:02
we jump to I guess it's similar vein, shameless. The podcast have closed their Facebook group that had 40,000 strong. We had 100,000. But we closed out. Shut it down. I mean, do you know much about that for someone? No, I hadn't.

35:24
I hadn't heard that night.

35:25
I think that like, yeah, for them. They talked about it just sort of running its course if that's the right. What do you say? turn of phrase.

35:34
Yeah. And so I mean, what so they, I think, I think they use the term we've got a bit toxic. The sweet spot between 5015 thousand people within the group and and what it was and what the conversation was around then and sort of, I guess, maybe how much you can handle at that point in terms of, you know, Michelle was mentioning that, you know, she's been on the phone with People that are following that group at night talking through conversations that were on the group and and Zara said that, you know, there's the decision because it wasn't based on the conversation we just had crystal around media outlets being responsible for the comments and, and things that were being posted within, you know, with below posts that they were putting out. So it was sort of a decision before that. I mean, it is a I mean, everyone thinks that attention is the thing that you want as a creator, you want numbers you want views. But then when you look at something like shameless skills, closing down a page that has a lot of attention, makes you think twice about is it the attention that we want and what type of attention we do want. Have you thought about

36:54
that for yourself difference between, like 40,000 in it or any kind of group of that size? I guess it's the question of like, whether that is actually a community, whether it's a real community of people, or has that now just become an extension of an audience that they also have in other places. You know, is that like, should that really just be a part of their social media followings or their newsletter list? Like? Is it a community if it's that big? I mean, it's almost a better question for you guys. I quit the gronk squad. How many? How many do you think would honestly be too many to service in the way that you are kind of servicing us all now?

37:37
Yeah, I think that it's, um, for us, it's been about co creating, and so as a community, but I think that the problematic nature of community or culture and so like, eight years ago, culture was the big thing that HR and people departments, were talking about culture has its own issues around unconscious bias and being like, okay, we just we get people who speak like us, they think like us, there's no friction. And so the very hard thing I think about what shameless is built is they've built a critical piece of media that requires debater requires all of those things. And I think with that complexity, it's, I think that from it from a content perspective, our content is a little bit safer to that, which I think is why we won't grow to be as big as they are. But we will have like, I think that we'll have slower growth, where people will be aligned. And so if everyone is aligned based on being a gronk, what does it mean to be gronk. Being a gronk means not always being right. But a willingness to Improve, that feels like, if that's the benchmark, we're in a good spot.

39:06
And then there's I think there's, there has to be a difference in, you know, having a 500 or 1000 or 5000 10,000. There is a different version of what you can give over at those levels. And so, you know, for for the shameless girls for what they built at the foot, you know, they're obviously identifying that this 40,000 this is, feels like it's out of hand. And the options to go down the path of monitoring it and curate it like an option at that point. They're like, no, nothing is better than that. Or,

39:41
like, what is the it seems like there's diminishing returns on these things, too. So it's like you the difference between 15,040 thousand Are you really getting a diversity of opinions or is it this homogenization That's happening on bigger ideas. So you sort of have blocks of people. But then the toxicity rises. So if toxic ideas and negativity spreads. And so the numbers go up, you're going to end up with more people who are just being negative and noisy.

40:20
Yeah, it's an interesting one, Crystal, before we finish off for you, three years time, what does it look like? What are you thinking for? fuzzy feed for you and your podcasts? Are you thinking that far ahead. And

40:32
this is pretty much what I've been thinking about all weekend. So taking the time now to just actually figure it out. Because, yeah, like, a week ago, I had 900 followers on Instagram, and now I have over 10,000. So the growth has been steep to say the least. But I'm not naive enough to think that that just means it's made and it automatically translates to people invested in what you're doing. And actually, you know, in, like, Todd, I don't want to sound ungrateful because I'm absolutely not. And it's kind of wrapped up in all this other complicated stuff around the events that had to happen, that accelerated my growth the way that it did, which is something I'm trying to unpack. But in a lot of ways, a more steady growth is more manageable as well because you understand the people that are coming to you and what they kind of want and need from me. So I'm trying to figure it out in three years time. I hope that this is something that a still going and maybe has a few different content pillars that were really strong on across a couple of different mediums. But who knows,

41:50
who knows? You said on Instagram, in one of your Insta stories you did as as sometimes white passing women of colour, what does it mean to be white passing?

42:08
To be white passing means that even though I'm, I'm not white, I'm an Asian woman, both my parents are Asian. I guess I have ambiguous. I look racially ambiguous. So people can sometimes think that I am that I actually am Caucasian that I'm white and I just tend really easily or some people might think that I am Asian or people have said that they think I'm, you know, from Brazilian background, all these kind of different places. So when I am able to kind of go through society with some people thinking that I am white, I access all of the privileges that a white person also accesses because I haven't been put in a different box. So I certainly have had things a lot easier in life than even some of my You know, like some of my cousins who are much darker looking than I am who have more Asian features than I do. I've definitely enjoyed some privileges in life. And yeah, that's just another thing to take stock of at this at this kind of time. It's given me a really good pause for thought.

43:19
I remember

43:21
keep growing up a question that heaps of kids would ask is watching Nasha. Is that still like is that acceptable to be saying that I've never

43:30
say watch your heritage now? Well, what's the what's the PC? It's a PC. Why? Well, because the other thing is someone who gets off

43:39
Yeah, I just don't think you should ask what's

43:40
the interestingly irrelevant. So the thing that I wonder about that is the the point around colour, like, one of the conversations Bree and I had was, she was in the place of, you know, like, I'm not a racist person. Like, I don't sit like I just Don't see, you know, colour or whatever. And then we spoke about that and read up and what like why that's so problematic. And so, if we do see colour, and we are all different is asking someone their nationality or you know, like, what is the the phrasing that that then is coming from a place of curiosity, rather than just trying to put people on a ladder?

44:30
I think that probably two key things in it. The first is that actually what's the most irritating and I am for some people like potentially painful like actually painful is when it's the first thing that you're asked or when it's kind of like in those initial conversations with someone that you're asking them because really you should just be wanting to know who they are and what they're about outside of their race initial kind of you know, when you've just met someone for the first time like what does it really matter and then After that, I mean, if it's someone that you have known and you are interacting with regularly about all kinds of other things outside of race, I mean, I don't know. I don't really know, just approaching it with compassion and kindness and, and also anticipating that they might be put off by the question no matter how you ask it. I'm sorry, why you stop saying is, where are you from? Because that's a very weird like you're not from here.

45:30
Yeah, like, that's, that's not great.

45:32
Well, the question didn't make it onto Josh's hundred dating questions. Yeah.

45:37
Yeah, it's probably not necessary. The modern Josh, you I also think that part of it, I think that is, from an intention perspective, it can come from a good place, which is from a connectedness point of view, which is like, you know, you get excited where it's like, I've been to this point, or I know a little bit about this thing. It's like yeah, No Kashkin bottom June, which is a Persian eggplant dish. And so if I know that someone's from Iran or if they sort of their Persian, I, I enjoy mentioned that or could be that I like mentioning food, but I realised that that's a that's a weird flex and doesn't necessarily

46:18
help. It's big for me the kids could talking Nacho, when we're young Italian, that we're loved it when they discover somebody else that was Italian too. And so I mean, but you can easily give it that sort of, you know, best example approach versus the people that are wanting to understand I mean, young kids like my son, you know, a three year old cannot be racist, I don't think unless their parents are but Bodie definitely understands that there is different skin colours. And he knows like he's one of his favourite rappers. smalls z. He actually has a favourite rapper and he has a great song, but the It's been moments where, and he's, he's a black man and we've been in the lift before. And he said to somebody, he thought it was small z. And he said, right. And he said to the guy, Masi bop, which he caught his song lossy, Bob, but he said it to this guy and the guy had no idea what was going. And I was like, Oh my God, he's kind of just understood from watching the film clip, which I probably shouldn't have shot it and seen somebody of colour and made the connection. And

47:24
so does it say that the only like, is that the problematic bit which is the that one piece that's the only reference that he has to?

47:35
I mean, with forgiving him the benefit of the doubt as a three year old, he's just seen a guy that look like his favourite rapper.

47:42
Yeah, well, it's not but it's not even I guess. It has nothing to do Bodie and more the, like what he's getting exposed to, right. So it's like if you if so if you had if you had like a bunch of black friends and you were going on the weekend or whatever, and you're going to barbecues and stuff off. Yeah. would would that be the would that be the connection in your mind? Probably not. But then I guess then you go is is that being racist? No, I don't think it's not. I don't think it's being racist. I think it just review reveals our exposure. What? Yeah, that like what I was talking about the other day, um, contact list bang, you know, 90% white?

48:21
Yeah, definitely. I just thought What do you think?

48:24
You know, and that's why representation is like a real it's so important. Because, you know, for like to use Bodie as the example, His reference point. Hopefully, as he gets a little bit out, you know, he is only three. So there's only he's just starting to make these connections. But hopefully, his reference point for the professions and the things that a black man can do, will be beyond being a sports person or a rapper. And I think that's kind of the issue. It's like making sure that people you know, that young people and young kids Understand that a black man also can be an academic can be a high school teacher can be an accountant, you know, can be a nurse can be whatever. And that's kind of the issue that I think Australia does the Australian media. And people in positions of power in Australia are very uniform, more so than I think in a lot of countries that we often compare ourselves to. So that's like a big part of the work for me is just like, how can I also represent other people in the various things that they the various very different things that they do? So that everybody has this expectation that you you really can be such a cliche? Isn't that really optimistic? cliche, can be anything, but you do want to show really young kids that Yeah, all different types of people can do all different types of jobs because it's great for them to because then Bodie will grow up also knowing that he really can do anything he wants to do. Only because you and Amy tell him that he can, because he sees that all of these different types of people do what they want to do, too.

50:07
Yeah. I mean, it's a complicated thing for parents too, I think about what's the best way of educating a young child moving forward,

50:18
what through your own actions, I guess. And so it's like, if they're, if they're sponges, it's probably harder to get a white board out and and say, Okay, here's, here's the different jobs. Now, these all these people can do it. And that's why it's really important that as a community, as a society, we do it all together. It's not just a response of like, we all have individual responsibilities, but we have individual responsibilities because we are a representation of society. And if we can, and you know, I can reflect it to technology and having developers and engineers that's like, the reason why we need More representation in those roles is so that when, you know, young girls are looking at what they could potentially do, it doesn't have to be there. If I can princess or a beautician or a PR specialist or a journalist or media and columns are a nurse, that they can do all of these other things, and it's it has as much weight on it.

51:27
Yeah, I mean, I wonder how the school systems are tackling this, you know, for the young, future generation. I don't have an answer.

51:35
I did have a high school teacher from Melbourne. Actually, messaged Stephane and asked if she could use the little post that we put together in her class, which was super exciting for me. It's very lovely, but I think you know, people are definitely some people are definitely trying to bring it into the education system.

51:56
You could have an behind, you could be behind the news. I would enjoy. Enjoy that just a bit of healthy competition.

52:04
A crystal way to make a spoof video. Yes, yeah,

52:07
Georgie boy, he's across the skids. So you could do it. Yeah,

52:11
definitely hope you

52:13
get this in Hump Day replay.

52:14
Yeah, definitely. Yeah, definitely. Congratulations on on the success it seems it seems weird. It's like you've got like we push back on that going viral thing because we understand how much work that you do behind the scenes before anything actually happens and you were the it's amazing that you've been putting in the effort, writing, being critical doing long hours sending emails that you know, ridiculous times and making things happen. And so, I mean, it's, it's proof that when you put in the effort that it can, you know, return return the favour so congratulations. It's so cool. My pumped for you match

52:59
me A lot

53:01
awesome thanks for still guys the daily talk show say tomorrow guys have a good one.

53:04
Say guys