#820 – Zach Mander On Content Ownership & Delusion/
- August 13, 2020
Zach Mander – Content Creator
Zach is a comedian and content creator at Collective Noun. Alongside Dom Fay, Zach hosts the Collective Noun Podcast.
With a background working in late night radio on the Hit Network, Zach now creates comedic and sketch content through Collective Noun.
On today’s episode of The Daily Talk Show, we discuss:
– Nostalgia and soft drinks
– Going vegetarian
– Queensland and COVID-19
– Content and clicks
– Owning content
– Delusion and the system
– Being aligned in a team
– Talent, delusion and reality
Zach on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/zachmander/
Collective Noun: https://www.instagram.com/collectivenouncomedy/
Email us: email@example.com
Send us mail: PO BOX 400, Abbotsford VIC 3067
The Daily Talk Show is an Australian talk show and daily podcast by Tommy Jackett and Josh Janssen. Tommy and Josh chat about life, creativity, business, and relationships — big questions and banter. Regularly visited by guests and gronks! If you watch the show or listen to the podcast, you’re part of the Gronk Squad.
This podcast is produced by BIG MEDIA COMPANY.
It's the daily Talk Show Episode 820 Internet's Zack mad is joining us on today's show. Welcome, Zack. Thanks, Tommy and Josh. Pleasure to be here.
The official internet I just went there. I mean, you're across a few different things. You're a bit of a slushie Hey, what you've been sleeping in a cup. And I haven't been able to see what's on the cup. What have you got there? What is that? It's a it's a pretzel. It's a dog pet. It's a some type of dog pretzel situation. A hot dog is I don't know
of dog in pretzel shape. That he's great.
I base a
little bit like you know the remember the famous ABC ads with the three thing Yeah, it's beautiful. Would you get about I could never do that. Did you guys used to watch that and he tried to like very creative. Just never able to do it as I go
Sir, my wife got it for as a souvenir from New York. And yeah, say so nice mug. It's great. I love it this morning, there was a bit of mug chat on a business zoom call that we had. And, Josh, you told us that your mum had a thing where she had to drink from white mugs. Otherwise she would flip her lead. Yeah, well, I just remember Mother's Day, and I got mama mug. And there was a little bit of frustration because it wasn't the colour that she drinks out of. I didn't realise that that was. That was a thing. But then we found out from Jess who works with this. She needs to have a suit like she doesn't have a secret. She can't have a thick mug it has to be a thin mug. What is your mug preference neck?
Well, I'm going through a bit of a mug dilemma at the moment because we just have a mismatch of mugs over the last 10 years that we've collected. And I'm wondering, should I start again with a cohesive idea because you know, you'll get like three
For a set and then another three from a set, and you just collect just a rubbish amount of mugs, but now like those kind of like pottery mugs coming in, you know, like the ceramic ones. Yeah. And I go to people's houses and they have whole collections of them. And I'm like, Don't you have like three mugs that you got when you're 18. This is the ray that you got that your auntie gave you when you move out of your house, like, doesn't everyone have that mismatch collection, but I go to people's houses and they have such cool collections. They all have like, a collective idea and an identity. Mm hmm. Well, it's like a infection on an old computer infection, a virus it just like gets worse and worse. As soon as you've got a rogue mug in your in your layout, it's just another one will come another one will come. It's an absolute nightmare. I tell you what, I didn't think I had much to say about mugs. Those pottery ones, you can't put them in the dishwasher. And so I like they get less use at my house because I'm like, I go for the one that can be put in the dishwasher like
auditory is that the equivalent of our parents fine china. Remember how you said
that nice, the nice plates that you'd never use now we just put these, these Miss, you know, because I know a lot of them don't even really look that fancy because the whole idea is that they're meant to look rough isn't it? But now that's our complaint of the fine things that we never pull out because we can't be bothered clean. I just remember going to a like one of those pottery places like you know go for 45 minutes out of the CBD and you and it's all sort of handmade all that sort of shit, but the
fucking like we brought it home and we realise it's all like it was made in China anyway. And so like they've created this whole the whole vibe and you getting the sense of like, I think that you know, put a bit of clay around and you get a few people with it prints with a bunch of clients. If I can, it got me I could have just got it from eBay. I bought a nice teapot from Japan in a back alley. It was like in this marketplace. I got back to Australia and I saw it you know
Turns out the marketplace was Ollie.
I tell you what else was made in China?
now I'm not gonna do it Trump and say COVID-19 Tick tock, and Zack you you're you're pretty big on Tick tock, might you go hard there? I really enjoy
your little tikkis tic tocs I'm
onna Thank you, man. I have been making a few tic tocs lately it's it's been fun. I like tic Tock it's, it's you know, when social media platforms are so young and that fun and that's still in their original form. So they haven't been diagnosed yet. Audience Are you talking about actual?
Well, I, I, I haven't. You know, everyone says tic tocs for teenagers, whatever. I don't see any teenagers. I think the algorithm kind of like, filters it towards what you like. Yeah. What are you saying? Yeah.
Okay, that's good. Or at least they look my age. I don't know. Yeah, I mean, they're wearing school uniform, but they look I mean, the other thing is act like kids look like they're 13 like they're not they don't dress like how we used to dress like what was your style growing up as a kid?
It was back when you know like billabong and revco you know, you'd get like the huge logo across your across your shirt. I remember like, when I first went into high school, I made the decision that I was only going to wear stuff from City Beach. Did you guys have City Beach? Down in Melbourne? Yeah, Citibank was very cool. Like that's like this surf shop. It's very cool. Yeah. What was that around them? Were they selling piping hot. Or piping hot. He was his piping. W brand. How old are you? I'm 30 I'm 30
you look you look 14
from Tick Tock
It's the den. It's the denim the den. I mean, it looks right on it. It really makes your eyes Yeah. The Yeah, I'm only 32. And if you're saying that I'm off with my references
a lot, I'll tell you what, this is what I think what happens with these surf brands is I think in popping hot was the top tier for a while and then they sell them to like big distributors. And then once they start showing up in like big W and target, that's when they start slipping, right? Because I remember when world industries when we were when I was in year, right and the skater world industries was like the coolest brand in the world. And then all of a sudden it started showing up in target and it's like what? Yeah, world industry I'll say confused. I'm like, is this cool anymore? I don't know what to do. I have spoken about world industries multiple times to remember this brand. TJ I feel like it's the
it's the yellow guy. Is that is that the one Zach? It was a it was a Fire Emblem and there was a water emblem. Yes. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, little devil with
Pitchfork Yeah, yeah, yeah, definitely had stickers. stickers on skateboards. I mean, what's your What's your thoughts on knockoffs and people wearing knockoff branded clothes? Zach?
Well, I'll be more concerned about where the knockoffs been made. That's probably what big issue with it. Yeah, sure, yeah. The political week when we were when we were kids. So what we do is like we'd buy, I've never actually executed this plan, but I always had plans to, because I would sell the weld industry patches that you could sell onto things. And my friends and I always had a plan to like would buy target denim shorts, but then would put like a name brand patch on it, but none of us could say so it never really came to fruition. I mean, my mom always said that it was the rollout of the same factory. Anyway. I'll be making these. I've been making these tech talks about the Audi knockoffs. Because
You know the cereals they owe based around the Kellogg's names, and so they have my favourite is instead of Sultana Bran, they have branded flakes. And a lot of people on tik tok say they come in, they're coming from the same factory. I don't think that's true. And that's probably going to be something I'm gonna investigate this week. I want to find out if they are making them in the same factory. Cuz I just I can't believe that that's true. Well, you'd have to then like either use the scraps, so tastes like the bottom of the barrel style. Otherwise, you think that the people will be on to it like this? I mean, maybe it is maybe it's that sort of manipulation by the branding like just because you paid a bit more it tastes better. It's definitely could be I'm ready for the full exposition from Zack on your on your Tick tock, please keep
an eye out. I mean, nostalgia. I I got some it was
sparkling sparkling water your sparkling water guy Zach. No hate it too fancy you know I get it. I used to be that too when I was your age actually you're old and I'm not 30 yet but it's never been a clear division between Melbourne and Brisbane has been the fact that you guys are drinking sparkling water and all my pa drinking tap water like a Bogan technically we it's a hot it's a hot day beverage like I like sparkling water when it's really hot and I think it's I think it's a post coffee thing. I think that because we're drinking so much coffee here a bit of dry mouth. bit dry mouth. So the the say yeah, the bubbles saying even though they're probably not helping with hydration. It feels like it tingles your tongue and it makes you feel a bit better. Can you relate to this?
No, it tastes like watered down the it's like a byproduct of soft drink. It tastes like something that they get out of the VAT at the end.
After they've made code, you know what I mean? It just is something off about it. So you was suffering john?
Sure, don't we all drink suffering? Um, I like the Bundaberg soft drinks you know the brewed ones huh well that's it I hate to Queensland passionate I passionate and I'm a proud Queensland up but I passionately hate diet soft drinks
Why bother in the old moving to having like artificial sweeteners now? This is this is if you want to have soft drink put sugar in it. I did that I did. I am a big no sugar guy mainly fed like don't want diabetes, but I realised that I probably will get cancer from having it anyway. But the so there was a special on it. I must make Woollies and my girlfriend Bray brought home we have this mountain Franklin sparkling water which is like raspberry flavoured and it's all natural. It's got like two ingredients. It's a carbonated water.
Natural plants are cancer natural, natural. I don't think this is a cancer one, you're not going to get enhanced from this. And so then you put it on the label.
Then she also brought home a
pack of cans that were cottage cheese brand.
We record your drink when you were a kid.
No, my family didn't really drink too much codea what we did have was the Golden Circle factory near our house when we were growing out. And that was where you'd go and you could get a palette of like cans of different
beverages. And I remember that it was like paich iced tea soft drink like years before Lipton made it. And it was the greatest thing in the world, but they must have sold any because at the factory, there was just pallets and pallets of it. we'd buy it in bulk and I'd have that in the fridge for the next, you know, year and a half. Is this the one that you would actually teach it
If this is just a Melbourne thing, but you'd have like there was the milkman who did his thing that was obviously before our time, then the closest thing to that was the soft drink subscriptions where you would get the soft drink in glass bottles and you put the glass bottles out and then replace them. I mean, I don't know why you throw to the 32 year old I
can talk about the olden days.
I think you're spot on. I think it was but it was not the goal. He was at the same brand. Is that what you're talking about? Zack? I don't know. TJ will look out and I'll tell you I'll tell you a weird one about the deliveries failure. I was talking to a friend recently. You know how like the garbage man comes around and collects your your bin, but before they had the arm, a guy would be on the back and they would jump off and and they would pull the bin over to the truck. When we were kids and I grew up thinking this was really normal. The garbage man used to throw us lollies and so when we were like six years old would run out at six in the morning and we'd wait on the foot
And the garbage man who was on the back of the truck would throw us lollies and we just thought that was like it would run back upstairs without lolly we had to put it besides our cereal and then we would eat out here and we're allowed to have the lowly off to its and I was telling someone recently and they're like no that didn't happen at mine that's that's really strange.
Well guys well that was the Christmas time the fiery yeah go out with the sands are on the back and they're throwing out lollies and it was only three years ago that bring in I came back from our overseas trip on one living at my parents place and I did catch myself early in the morning without shoes on running out to get my get my wallet
been shouldering that Yeah, I broke
the speaking dad. It still happens it's more in the suburbs. My we got to my my wife's mom's house for Christmas and and yeah
I live, there's a there's a there's a Santa on a fire truck. And it is great. These are all traditions. And it's interesting, like what we're talking about is either quotes from our parents or like guidance based on their needs. I mean, think about this
quote from the Gobbo This is everything like, these are all things that people like as individuals, how do you My question is, How the fuck do you end up at the point of, like, not liking something? Like, what's that answer? You know, like, Why don't? Why don't you like the taste of something? Why don't you like, soft drink? Why does one really feel strongly about suffering and someone doesn't care at all? These are the life questions we tackle hizack Well, I mean, we should start off by like, what is something exactly that you don't eat? And it's not an allergy thing, but just something that you hate. And can you connect it to a story?
Well, I'm a vegetarian. Okay, yes, that's
because I know
Josh, you legendary Yeah, I in Los Angeles. How long was it for probably five weeks. I did a burger that broke the camel's back was in and out. Yeah so I did I did a bunch of time but I The problem was that I was still eating junk. So it was like it was the junk end of the vegetarian stuff so it was a lot of the fo meat products that were sort of big. Not like soy necessarily but it was a lot of a lot of peanut butter and shit like that. So I wasn't wasn't feeling great. When did you go veggie? Oh, and why
that four years ago, and it was you know, I guess animal welfare, climate and health.
you say climate you mean climate change not just because in Brazil you feel a bit like if you eat it may
then make sweats. I yeah, well
I hear it's good for the environment. I trust Leonardo DiCaprio a documentary. I mean, you pregame changes which is a
I've been using changes that's a massive flex I appreciate that. And so what else are you waiting?
Um, I don't really not eat anything out of taste. I don't think one of the you know because once you it's hard once you've cut out meat you can't really be too picky off to that. You know what I mean? Like, once you knock out a really big part of it. I mean, if I was had a if I had big issues with broccoli, I'd really be running out of things pretty quickly. Hmm I think it makes you less fussy or because being a fussy Yeah, definitely pretty hard. And so yeah,
you just have to eat what's presented to you love tomato see Ivan I went to in and out when I was in LA as a vegetarian Josh, I didn't mind You know, I don't mind the lettuce tomato cheese. What do they call it? They call it like a cheese
cheesy or something like that? Okay. I mean,
it just didn't. The problem I had with it was it was removing something without adding anything else. So I just Yeah, see, here's the thing. It's it's all in your head man. We've just been conditioned to think that the biggest need to be like that the flavours the sauce, that's what's going on. And so as long as you got the source on there, why can't you have lettuce and tomato and cheese on a sandwich? Why do we have to put other things on? That's a fine sandwich is fine. I mean, are you a sandwich guy because I like I find that if you gave me a sandwich in the traditional sense, like I haven't used bread that you would buy at a shop, you know, like your standard not wonder white but even like any bread that's pre sliced. I haven't taken that and turned that into a sandwich in probably 15 years. The things I can do we recently went to a cheese tasty place my wife and I we travelled halfway across Britain for this on a freezing
called day it was a really bad decision. And after we ate it, I was like, I can do better than that. That was that was so disappointing. And so things I can like, that's now I won't buy toasties out because I can do it better at home and once you start doing once you start getting to a level where you can do things better at home, it's a real coming of age, isn't it? I mean it's because I feel like I'm seeing how the sausage is made now and I'm like looking down the back of these toasty places and I'm like oh you guys are doing you just have the same toaster that I have that he charging me $15 for it and so yeah I love Thai steaks make a tasty all the time. cheese and tomato basil bit of herbs from the backyard
What is it What's a go to as a vegetarian you know people like our love this specific steak joint Do you have a thing that you're sort of a lot of them are sent around meat so do you have one that's a vegetarian?
vegetarian I believe I pronounced it You mean takeaway Come on.
At the moment at the moment it's probably taking away but I go to I really well.
There's a place up in Brisbane called veggie me in West End we go there a fair bit, but that's mainly because of like our serving size. You'll get like four meals for the price of one say that's pretty efficient. But I like the beyond burger at growth. That's the best meat substitute in my opinion. That's pretty good. I get that pretty regularly. And the so locked down at the moment in Victoria is pretty full on like, we can't leave the house basically, unless you're going out and exercising or if you're an essential worker. I've been out once in the past couple of weeks. what's the what's the deal in Queensland a year you wearing masks or anything like that? No man, no masks.
Maybe one in 10 people will wear a mask in public. We I don't I haven't bought any mask yet. Considering what
I'll need to I don't know, we've just I think it's been a week since we've had a case. And so we're, we're pretty open. We can go anywhere in Queensland we can. You can go outside. It's it's, yeah, we're pretty okay. But it's sad to see everything happening down there. And we're thinking of you guys. Thank you where we're coming. I wish the sound Yeah, no, but what's funny is that I watched that he'd be a right leaning guy, just like the state of you know what's going on in Victoria. And he just went into this thing. I'm like, bro, I'm here. And it's not that bad. Like, he was talking like we're in world war three. In Melbourne. It's like this draconian I mean, these are the words that they're using them in a draconian state and it's like, the the, the when you're here and the sun is shining, you're looking outside. It's like, Fuck, it's a nice day. And you know, when you label it as like, the 8pm curfew, Bro, I heard a guy doing a burnout after 8pm last night. He's a lunatic. He
It's like it's it is interesting. It is serious and like the mask thing I was thinking, I hadn't worn a mask I was exactly the same feeling is used. And then you just told him and then it's like, now we're here. It's a Yeah, I got no problems with it. I don't have any problems. It's just a cultural thing. You know, I was in Japan last year and people just wear masks and that's fine. Like no one even blink said I don't like there's no like we should normalise it. Normally, there's been anecdotally like, talking to my friends. I haven't been sick this winter. A lot of my friends haven't been sick. And a lot of people are saying that because of the social distancing. You know, the same precautions that we're using for COVID-19 is also going to prevent other viruses. Why don't you Why don't we why most of the time.
What's the issue with it? We like less than also gonna get sick. That's a good thing. Yeah, it's just getting used to it, isn't it? Like I even though I have no issue with it, it's still at the annoying stage where it's like, if it's not, I mean,
say I'm talking from someone who's never worn
it is it annoying.
It's annoying. So this is a thing. Yeah. So when I when I, when that was all announced, I was very much like, it gives a fuck like, it doesn't matter and I still believe that like people complaining about having to wear it
or being ridiculous I think for the most part. The the thing though is that there is an uncomfortable nature to it because it's like if you go out like the benefits of going out and walking outside. For me, I realise how much of it is about the fresh air bit. And so the like, if I'm walking along, like the on Sunday, when I went for a walk, I like just lifted my mask down for a second. And like took in a breath and then like felt fucking amazing. And so I think that part of it is you don't realise until these things change. I think this is like a great gratitude practice in general. It's like
You don't realise how good things are until they get taken away? Yeah, I'll tell you a funny one on gratitude. Do you guys are you guys getting the promoted? The promoted? Well, you wouldn't just because you're not on Instagram but Tommy, you might get promoted ads in your Instagram stories for oovs like mindfulness apps. I got one the other day.
I got one the other day for gratitude. And it's like a guy with a really nice voice. And he's like this. I wasn't having a great day, I was feeling a bit like, there's a guy and he goes like, there's three. There's 3 billion people in the world that would instantly trade with your spot right now with the idea of like giving yourself some perspective, but I kind of then just started feeling guilty that
you know, I have this great life, and I'm not happy with it. I'm like it did the total opposite for me. I'm like, right now I feel bad, that I don't feel good.
I feel like your YouTube videos. There's a level of
politics in it which with when you had your radio show, collective noun, I feel like there's probably less room for that being on the network or being sort of, you know, top 40 sort of tunes Have you always been a guy that's into politics or is that something that's just come around given the situation marine?
Ah, I don't know I grew up watching the chase up maybe that's a part of it. I don't really like politics that much. I just like
anything where it's very serious. It's fun to you make fun of it, you know what I mean and say, and also they're just funny because they're always contradicting themselves and and they have certain rules that they have to upkeep and you can kind of catch them out on it. And so that's really the I have the same general interests as everyone in politics. I think I don't think I have an increased interest but it's just it's just, it's it's, to me it's a fun area to to play in.
Maybe not for everyone. Yeah, well, I think what you could say about politics is that it affects everyone in some way shape or form. And so I mean, that's true people have our it's like, I've never thought or talked about politics more in the last two years and then I then I have in my lifetime, and
it's affecting me more, but I can't tell is it age? Is it the time we're in? Or?
I don't know a third one. So Zack makes that one up.
What do you think it is? Do you think it's the timing like why you interested in?
we we so on, on our radio show for a lot of years we did this segment called out of context news, where we would take politicians in the eye and we would change the throw so it was a news. It wasn't like a new It was as if it was a news bulletin and we'd see like Donald Trump today was
upset that KFC ran out of chicken and then would have agreed with him being like, I'm gonna stop them, I'm gonna shut them down, you know, we get ticked off grab, and yeah, he'd be like, I'm gonna shut them down. It's not good enough, it's unAmerican or whatever. And so we did that that was our take on things. And so it was like taking the joke was kind of like serious people making comments about non serious things. So that was always our take. And I remember when we started our radio show,
Tony Abbott was the one we were always using as like the punch line cuz he always said, not only did he say funny things, but it was he had a funny cadence, he'll say him in a funny way. And that made it that you could change the context of what you're saying really easily. And then he he got voted out or whatever, just as we started out, show full time, and we thought, Oh, well now it's going to be a lot harder to get crabs and honestly, it was like a week later, Donald Trump got voted in and we were like, Oh my goodness, this guy's like turning
At times 1000
the news cycle Are you um, are you consuming news in it in a big way? Do you sort of control the amount of news you're reading?
Uh, not really, I'd you know, Facebook, Instagram. Just the same as usual. I watch all the late night shows in America. I'll watch Kobe air and Seth Meyers every day, and say, that's probably where I'm getting most of my American news from. And then I just followed you know, the normal people in Australia, I think ABC and SBS and stuff like that. Are you if you watching the American shows are you across the drama with Elon? And then the potential of James Corden being the takeover of Ellen's position? Well, yeah, I mean, I've seen that coming off in my feed, from what I can see. They're posting the same story over and over every couple of days. I'm like, Is anything changed here? I think that he
Big no one has said anything new. I think news.com della you who have had an Ellen DeGeneres story on their homepage for probably the last three months, but yeah, it's actually it's non news. It's just like the same shit. It's just like, people. Well, they all don't like Ellen DeGeneres. They obviously getting clicks on it. And I think, you know, that's maybe a downside of where our media cycles are at the moment. It's like, it's driven by what gets results, not what is necessarily I'm not saying no comment on that at all, but just generally, what is newsworthy. And so like, he, you know, this is how all you know, radio works like this as well, just whatever's successful. They're gonna keep doing it. And it's so they're not they're not filtering it around filters of like, what do we need to know or what's the most newsworthy thing today is like, what's going to get the most clicks?
You were on your own? I was just gonna say as a creator, how
Do you balance the approach of doing something for clicks versus doing something? Because you like the content? What's your approach?
I don't know. Really, because
I guess you got to balance both. You have to be interested enough in them to want to make it but then if you ultimately if no one's watching it after a while, it's not going to be self sufficient. That's the reality is like, you have to have an audience or if you're not going to be able to
achieve your goals, if you want to make a living from it. If you don't, then that's okay. And so I think it's just balancing,
trying to find your interest in an area that lots of people are going to be interested in. You spent a lot of time and effort into the radio show but also YouTube and online. Like I think that you guys have done it better than anyone that I've seen.
In Australia, across all the different platforms. Thank you. We like it making the transition or realising hang on this, you know, putting in all the work that you did from a radio context 2020 everything that's happening, being in home creating other things not having the radio show, has it given you a different perspective on the journey you're on?
Yeah, definitely. I the importance of having an audience has been ramped time to me. And I think that's going to become more and more. I mean, the radio industry, and generally broadcast media is not in a good spot. And I think it's going to continue to go that way. And you need if you have an audience, you're you have some insurance because you're always going to have a certain number of people that you can talk to, and that you can share your message with. And probably over the last five years, the perspective shift I've had in the last six months is I thought we were
Making videos. And so I was really determined and like focused on that content. I didn't realise what we were really making was an audience. And that probably would have, if I go back five years that probably would have changed my perspective on some of the things we made. Whereas like, I was thinking about them as if, like, you know, we were like, always so careful that we would use music that didn't have any copyright infringement on and stuff like that, because I was thinking, you know, it would be a disaster if it was taken down. How well other people around us everyone was just using music that they were pulling off YouTube and whatever.
Thinking about it now I'm like, Well, if it had got taken down three days later, but you had gained 500 followers, it has actually achieved
is something better than it being five years later, and you know, 10 people are watching it every month. That's not really achieving much. And so probably over the last few months, I've changed my perspective on that and we probably didn't participate in like, some trouble
and stuff like that, thinking that like, Oh, we don't do that. Whereas, like, if with the idea of gaining an audience, it doesn't really, I think it has to be within certain parameters, you want to gain an audience that are gonna like what you're doing going forward or if they're not going to be any use to you. However, we probably could have been a bit more flexible with that, I think. I think we could have, we could have lowered some of our filters, we had just had ridiculous filters, what we thought we were doing versus what we were actually doing probably wasn't sci fi based in reality. What does that mean?
Oh, well, you think of it, you think there's a certain you have to be you have to you have to have a certain level of
delusion. And you think you're changing the game. You think you've been like you're doing something that no one's ever done before. But now you know, you're doing the bland You know, this first idea everyone comes up with Yeah, and so I think you just need to relax and have some fun and if we implement
stuff out at the beginning, we were pumping stuff out pretty quickly. But if you just had more fun with it, and we put it through less research and so the amount of ideas we didn't do, because we had come up with them independently, but we had remembered that Hamish and Andy had made a similar joke 10 years prior, you know, I'm just like, Who cares? We didn't copy them. We know we didn't copy them. Yeah, just do it. In three days, no one's gonna know. Anyway, we were gonna put in perspective on it. I can relate to that a lot. Well, yeah, I mean, Hamish and Andy on the first guys to do a test of how far you can get on an empty tank of petrol. It's like 100 they
barely do it. Yeah, there you go. And so what about them? There's a guy Jackson identity. I think he's from. I think he's from Queensland. He recently had his full million follower Instagram accounts, taken watts from Instagram. And inside that, Oh, dude, he's gone really hot. He probably breached some
Some card but or it was I mean he posts some edgy shit he's got an only fans now he was a prank guy and he's living in LA and so but that was his livelihood and so he's gone through hot around that you don't own your content you don't own what you your platforms. What is your experience being coming from radio where it's obviously a brand within a brand and then your social channels which are yours was it for you and your creative stuff? Well, I think with that instance and that socks I know Tommy, you got your Instagram deleted recently, didn't he? Yeah, that would be I wish I hadn't on the fence. I've been given a good story behind it. I've just got nothing I just got it was a fucking mistake on their end. Yeah. Okay. I think just diversify. You should have a backup platform Shouldn't the some that aren't owned by Facebook say that? Yeah, that's a good thing about Tick Tock. That's some competition that you can have an audience on in regards
To the radio, we were always pretty good because we never we did three years of national light nights. And there was never a conflict of what we wanted to do and what the radio station wanted to do. Like they were happy to let us do what we wanted to do. And those Venn diagrams were like just a circle, basically, that we didn't have to do anything we didn't want to do. And, and they didn't want us doing anything. And so we got lucky there. I don't know what we would have done if they wanted us, you know, to do something that we didn't really do maybe like a music based show.
Not just because we didn't do
I guess, in that instance, that's just not a good fit. You know what I mean? Do you think
that perspective that you've gotten now around the delusion? Do you think the delusion was necessary at the time to get that hundred percent? Oh, did we, when I was a teenager, I want to be a stand up. So in my late teenage years, I did a bit of quite a bit of stand up comedy actually at the time.
you have to have so much delusion to get on stage. You have to think that you really funny and then looking back on the jokes now like I wasn't funny at all. But if you don't have that delusion, you'll never start. It's I heard Malcolm Gladwell talk about it recently. And he was quoting, someone else said, this is like a third hand quiet. But it's this guy, he was talking about a helpful level of delusion. And he was saying in relationships that you have, there's a helpful level of delusion when they compared how our partner reported, the positive attributes and the negative attributes of that partner versus reality. They were skewed, but you have to have that helpful level of delusion so that you can get along together, I guess. And it's a similar thing when you making content. If you don't think that it's important, then you never gonna make it. But then with a bit of perspective, you realise that it was never important. Yeah. Rob Lowe, who's a famous actor. He's probably like mid 50s. Now, he was
Recently just about acting and how it's almost a similar delusion, he didn't get told by anybody. So there's no one in his circle early days that said, You're crazy for giving this a crack. And so the fact that he didn't have the external voices saying, dude, did you know that 95% of people in the Actors Guild
can't support themselves as actors. And so, to think you're going to be a small percentage, you're crazy. And so there's almost like, not having any of that. And then delusions almost, to be delusional is usually an unconscious thought, right? And so it's hindsight you see the delusion in now you talk to somebody, like Can't believe a fucking asset. That's delusional.
And so yeah, and so how would you How would you find how would you create delusion? When it is conscious? Do you think it's a I'll just give it a crack or forget the thoughts in my mind as a creator. I think the delusion
Is I'm good at this. But eventually you do get good at it. Yeah. Do you know what I mean? And so you kind of say I think the delusion at the start is people are gonna want to hear what I have to say. But then as you get better people do want to hear what you have to say. Or you might develop your ability to tell your story you might be you might develop your ability to have a voice. And so I think the delusion gets smaller and smaller as you hone your craft to a point that you get to a level where you're not delusional anymore you are or the at least the delusion is less, maybe your abilities versus how you see yourself or a lot closer. And so I think the delusion is more at the start like I'm quite confident now that we can do a radio show that's, you know, at least not out of place, you know, is at least of a quality that is as good as a lot of other things that are around.
But at the start, you have in mind made some bad stuff.
There is something in the
Everyone's making it up. And so he said, and so on the writing thing, like I find it interesting like
there's a there's a level of delusion in right? Like I find the process of writing something I've always wanted to do when too late lean into there is definitely a delusion that's needed in the writing pro process because it's saying not only do I have good thoughts, but they justify synthesising them into this onto the page. The so we don't work in an industry that has any qualification really. And so if you're a teacher, you do three years of uni or four years of uni and then you get a piece of paper that says I'm a teacher. If you're a doctor, the same type of thing we adjust it's you say that you do it and you do it. Yeah, you people can you can look at a product and have a critique of it. But when you say writing, it is no it is not
No barrier to entry at all, you just have to start writing. And then the thing that's actually scary is that the critique of the product probably isn't as objective as you think it is. And so like, all you need to do is convince one person, that it's a good idea, one person, and then and they then have to convince their people. And so what I've learned from getting into radio and then also our radio show ending is like we benefited significantly from circumstances outside our control to get into radio. And then we were we were we faced consequences that were beyond our control.
Well, loosely beyond our control, with the show, ending those exterior circumstances that we had no control over. And so I reflect on that, okay, well, did we do anything? we lucked into it and then locked out of it. There's so much to be said about
think that these people who are making decisions are objective but they're not. But don't you think that that's part of the the system? So for instance, that's I think that's the pushback that I have in some of these industries is because it's like it's all about
you know, ranking people or create or the even like within the radio context the the top content directors or the this or that and it's all like
it's to what purpose do you think that those things to look? Yeah. They the reason they're making him is because those websites need content. That's the The only reason that you just be wouldn't be surprised if they're just putting names into a hat and pulling them out. They serve no purpose whatsoever. They are not rooted in any reality. They are so far from objective. It's not funny. However, they do hold weight they do. They do. Contribute to how people look at things and that's the crazy thing if you if you are able to
the way that thing these people are saying or how your brand is saying that's, that's that's the big test the difference between someone looking on you positively and someone looking on you negatively and your brand or your or your show is so minute is so minute and it could be based on a whole lot of different things. My theory is that a lot of these people who are making decisions have certain feelings. They can't they don't know why they have certain feelings about certain talent. And then they look towards those things to justify their decision. So they look towards data sets about how big their followings are, they look towards how they rank on certain rankings and whatever, to justify a decision that's actually already made and that that that is based on a feeling that they either like you or don't like you. And that's the same as like market research like this. There's so many flaws in the way that they go about doing that reset. I mean, there's not much comfort I think that the interesting thing with what you're saying is because
You are, I feel like I'm in a similar position around, we have a real confidence in how we feel that the system is but unfortunately,
people that are on the top of the system, there's not many, there's not many incentives for them to call out the system has been completely rubbish and made up and so then what ends up happening is you have young people who or people who are new to an industry who look up and they say I'm this is, this is the ladder or this is the process where the reality is, what makes you successful. And what makes collective now and everything that you've done successful is because that you have gone well beyond an industry or, or set of rules and you're creating something that's bigger than that.
Yeah, I mean, is that something that has has come to you over the time of being in there is there been any pivotal moment where you've realised hang on
This system is actually full of shit.
The pivotal moment probably was that not everyone is working towards the goal of making a good product. And so, you know, in The Big Short when Steve corrals character is sitting on top of the roof at the end. And so the whole movie, he's been trying to give people a heads up to the stock market's going to crash. And then he realises at the end, he's sitting on top of this roof and he's having a coffee, and he has this lightbulb moment where he goes are they know, but they don't care, because they're gonna benefit.
I was working under the illusion that everyone in these companies and it's just it's just a fact of, of just how companies work. It's like, so they they purposely do things, for example, on social media that account not intuitive to their goals, but it's because that person who's making that decision isn't going to be there in two years time. They're going to be in a different social media job in six months and say they have a goal that they need to meet in the immediate next three weeks.
Or the next month they have a KPI. So they're going to use shortcuts to achieve that. And that's counter intuitive to the long term goals of that brand or that show or that company. And so that was a big lightbulb moment. For me, I was like, very frustrated with how things worked. And then I thought, Ah, it's, it's because when we don't all have the same goal here, because that individual,
their incentive is to artificially inflate numbers so that they could meet their KPIs for the month, because they're not going to be here in two years. And I'm going to be here in five years, so they don't care if this is the end, I guess. And but also, they've created a new truth that like a lot of them believe their own bullshit, because it's like, they know what they know. And I was like, you guys, I'm, is that playing the game at that point? Because Yeah, I'm not buying that one that that guy was mentioning. Well, because it's gonna like it's just such a short term game. It's it's not going to help you in the long run. And that's why you guys have been I think the most clever thing you guys have done is that
The commitment is because you're slowly building something over a long period of time, you're not going to take shortcuts that are gonna screw you over in the long term. Like, remember, when everyone was building their social media pages four years ago, and we will hook Well, no way, but there was a lot of people just ripping names that other people had made, and there was no curation towards the type of audience you're trying to build. They now have these massive pages. That mean nothing. They can't get 10 likes on their original content. They have half a million likes on the page. They won't get 10 likes on a video, it means nothing. And say they've all screwed themselves over. Yeah, it's so true.
Yeah, mainstage I feel like I could just keep going, how do you feel like it the encouragement within, what does that do to you, when you have these realisations about the way it's been? as a creator, it can sting because you're putting your blood, sweat and creativities into it, where it
Land, I think it's important to have things that you control. And so whether it's personal accounts or in our case, we had, you know, I've got a personal Tiktok now, but before that I wasn't really making any content under my own name. But you know, we had collective now known to different things. And so therefore, you have an avenue despite other people's decisions. And in they can be it can be mutually beneficial and what's really mutually beneficial. With the radio station, we work for health, social media, we helped their social media. And so there are ways that they can work well together. It was just why realising that just helped me
in my own head, just you know, it wasn't sending myself crazy. I couldn't figure out why people were making decisions that were going to screw themselves over. And then it you know, that realisation helped me just come to pace without like, I'll just come. Once you understand that you're like, Oh, I understand what people try to do. And that's, that's what I would do also, if I was in that situation, yeah.
Then alignment and having a team, you have these strong feelings and they're constantly evolving. How do you keep aligned within a team?
Yeah, that's really hard. I remember we spoke to
Tony Martin a few years ago. And he said most groups dissolve or most comedy teams dissolve because there's a disagreement over the
distribute diverse distribution of labour, basically, how much everyone's contributing. And so I think you just have to make sure you all have the same goals. I don't know how often you guys check in how often do you check in on the 10 years? Are you always like, Are we still good for 10 years? I think like the thing is, we use it as like a filter system. And so if we can, I think that we are all accountable to if we were to do something by having it nice and clear, like show filters. Were saying, guys, this is this thing is
So for instance, for me, it's like the social media stuff. If we were playing a short term game if we're like, okay, we want to fuckin have some sort of Joe Rogan purchase which is like delusion and where a lot of people fall flat with podcasting, they think they're gonna be able to sell their podcasts and millions of dollars.
If that was the game applying, then you would say, okay, Josh, you need to be on social media and we need to posting six times to your personal Instagram every single week. The 10 year rule is so you know, the 1010 year goal is so ingrained in everything that we do that it takes the pressure out of some of this stuff, and what would happen if something changed? And do you guys talk about that? Like, let's say hypothetically, no, Tommy, I'm just gonna use you as an example a few. So you have a child now let's say you have two more children. And you go Look guys, I'm I you guys could be raking in a million dollars here. I got no idea how much money you're making. But let's just say hypothetically, you're like, I need to
make more money. I can't dedicate as much time to building something from the ground up. Do you have like a policy about how you're going to bring that off and stuff? I'm just interested? Well, I think the the reality of someone who would turn it around and say that has probably missed the point, or they're on some journey, they haven't realised what they're signing up for. And so the the 10 year thing is an understanding. It's ingrained in you. So I wouldn't turn around and say that because I wouldn't be in this part of it. Now. If that was going to be the case, it's a joint stability. I think that's the other thing too. So it's like we
the filter that we're all using is the betterment of the thing that we're building. The great thing about the daily talk show, specifically, is it doesn't it doesn't actually day to day, it doesn't require a huge amount of labour. What we're talking about is an hour and a half a day of our time.
And so that 10 year part is the non negotiable that showing up and doing that. And that's not crazy amount of time, the bigger question around BIG MEDIA COMPANY and where we take that, that is something that transforms every single week, depending on what's happening. And so it goes from being a client services business where we're charging clients to make content for them to focusing more on a network style arrangement where we're bringing in other shows. And so yeah, I think I think that it's Tommy and I are very aligned in regards to what that needs.
And the daily talk show is probably is the daily talk show is the reason why the business exists. I don't think our business would exist if we didn't have the show. Then do you guys deal with conflict? Well, do you guys have much conflict in the group? I think like the
In the start in the team, I think that like Tommy and I had conflict, you know, weekly when we were getting started I think like the first probably 150 200 episodes, there was zero there's there's not many much expectation around the first 200 say,
you know, I went away for four months travelling we did the show every single weekday during that time. And coming back to going from having our separate businesses to having a joint venture all of a sudden, everything was up for compensation debate, and we put in the time we lent into it which is like voice the concern now have the conversation now. Let's rather than So, I think that where Tommy and I have landed when you have something like COVID and you have stage four, the learning for us now is distributing the the knowledge, the awareness, the
Understanding that we have as a partnership, and being able to distribute that across the rest of the business. So that's where we spend our time is it's like, Tommy and I are very aligned. And now it's making sure that we're communicating that to the rest of the team.
That's good. pulling in the same direction. Yeah. What about you and Dom? Uh, you do chat through direction vision.
Yeah. Well, probably early on, you know, similar to you guys. Probably we we, when we first got the national radio show. I think that was we didn't recalibrate because that was a golf for a long time. And so you don't want to call as well. So there's sort of three but there's the two that are mainly you and Dom are on air is was that like a decision that had to be made as well in the early days? Well, Mako was very it was very obvious that he was technically minded. He was never in front of the camera or front of Moxie. There was no debate over that.
Yeah, so that was a, that was all good. I think we, the
we, the radio and the video content and their relationship to each other was where there was some conflict and where we had to decide what that relationship was and who was responsible for it
because it was all I always really liked the video stuff more. We both liked radio but dumb was probably less video focused, and that probably still is the the the breakdown any conflict came from unmet expectations. And so we just had to recalibrate what the expectations were and make sure that we all agreed on them. And so if you're working a delusion, like you're talking about so it's already hard when you work in delusion, then you have a delusion with a team. So, you were talking about the the obsession around the the format or the you know, the the nitty gritty which I can
Very much relate to it's like, for me, it's like search engine optimization and long tail and how we're going to do all of this sort of stuff, right? Like it's, it's very, very similar. So then when you're working in with delusions, how do you align delusion? So Dom potentially putting too much emphasis on radio, you putting too much emphasis emphasis on video? probably somewhere in between?
Yeah, it's just making sure that ever satisfied with the agreement, I think it's important to have and to constantly update what the working agreement is how much people are contributing to different things. And
now, with that, there were probably times in the last three and a half years where we weren't happy with how that breakdown happened. And so it's about having honest conversations and
you're gonna have conflict working in creative teams together in teams who say that they don't fight I'm like, wow, I don't know.
He would question the content you're making then because you're not really pushing it too hard. So it's about how you can resolve that conflict quickly and effectively and in a way that everyone's happy with. And I think we've got much better at that. We've also got all da, you know, that helps you get more experience in radio is like, it's hard because it's a very, we were alone, there was no one else in the building. So there's three of us. It's one in the morning, night off the night. And wait, we were like, you know, in our 20s. It's the it's, it's a learning curve. And so
there's something that happens, it seems like with a lot of these teams, I think
the thinker girls was sort of in a similar predicament where it's like you sort of there comes to a natural ending of something. And then so for instance, for them, it was their radio show, and then
I know that they spent a bunch of time to
Developing other things, and there's this hard decision where it's, you've put in all of this effort, there's all of this investment that's happened. And now there's a crossroad. But for many, the crossroad isn't determined based on the internal decision of the team. And it's an external force around if a TV network picks this up, if this does this, if this if, if these people pick us, we will then continue as a team. I just I wonder, I think Tommy Tommy and I, where we've landed with the daily talk show, I think that pivotal moment is we can't we can't make sure you in this gonna have to go very shortly. That's already the we've never had to make a decision that's based on that external factor where it's like, if we don't get these people picking us, we're fucked because we're picking ourselves how do you reconcile that side of things? You gotta have time and that's, you know, it's it's
It's, it's really hard for them to go to go show to show to show if you want to stay in the same team. And if you but if you are happy for that to be some time in between, I think it's, it'll be a bit easier, more achievable. And so it's an expectation thing again. So if you have the at the end, when we look like that, we're going to wrap up the show last year, I had the expectation that we wouldn't do a show together for a while, and then we would pick it up again, once we found someone interested. Whereas I think
Dom's idea was that we would continue straightaway afterwards, which I would I would have loved to but I just didn't know how realistic that was. And so the realism like a bit being realistic if you're delusional why why choose to be realistic then
that's that's real. That's what happens. Right? Like I guess that's to your point of
what you're talking about, which is like, what the system, whether it's you know, buying a place or having kids or whatever it is, yeah, those things force us to have what would be perceived as reality based on the system. I think the delusion is more around the content, not around the career decisions and say, the particularly when you're trying to be funny, or you think of yourself as being funny. That's where the delusion is. That's probably what I'm referring to is like the idea that this is funny because a lot of the times evens very successful comedians, you'll hit rate is nowhere near 100%. And so you constantly have to be have some level of delusion that this is going to be funny or I have the confidence to try this out. Whereas around the decisions you make for your careers, it's a lot more dangerous to be delusional around that at this stage in my life anyway, because this is not based on delusion, though. Like if you are a content person and you're playing in
spice and you're making decisions based on what you're doing with content, does it not? Is there not a little bit of overlap that's happening. So what you can do after a while, and this is where the delusion and reality come closer and closer together is that you have a body of data or or, or you have years of experience that you can compare things to. And so you can go, Well, you know, this was a situation we were in then. And we were able to get out of it there. And so you have things to compare it to, like hard evidence of things that have happened in the past or hard data, like we'd made this type of content and it went well. Whereas you don't have any of that at the start. And so you have you have no hard things that you're comparing to whereas as you go along, and so
I'm a lot more confident comparing myself and my abilities to the marketplace now. And I have, I have new confidence.
And I hope that as that that's based in more of a reality than delusion these days that I would be
To eat I do another radio show, for example, do you know what I meant? Yeah. Oh, you could I guess the The other element is, the longer you sit in the delusion, the more truths that you find within the delusion, so you just use segmenting the initial, like it's a it's a version of the cherry picking in that like what you're what we're talking about with the the systems and the industries, you get better and better
at finding solutions that paint the narrative or the delusion that works. So it feels less and less of a delusion. But you're actually further along in that. Does that make sense? I think what the dilution proves as well is the is the illusion of talent and how important talent is you know, Jerry Seinfeld talks about the fact that a lot of comedians who are making a lot of money aren't the funniest people. It's just they work the hardest and they stick out at the most and so we there's a delusion that
Talent is really important talents, obviously a factor that there's significant other factors. And so therefore, if you if you the delusion of talent is if you think I'm talented, I have to push on, and that's why I'm successful. In the end, you're going to be successful maybe, but maybe the reality was that you weren't successful because of your talent. You were successful because you kept at it. Yeah. Do you understand what I mean? Yeah. So that dilution is is a is a is misplacing the factors of why you succeeded? I yeah. How do you Yeah, what do you what do you think? No, I Yeah, I agree. I think it's but then it's always hindsight that you could look back and make a decision and realise that it was delusional or not. And so yeah, I mean, it's interesting, like Jerry Seinfeld, saying, The what what do you think on Jerry Seinfeld saying that and where he is as a comedian. There's no doubt he cried. But he's, he's someone who works super hard on it.
It will. It's like a waste.
I have this idea that if you're a successful comedian, you're the funniest. But there's a lot of, you know, you could be a really good business person, and just know how to write jokes. You know what I mean? Like, you have to have a certain level of ability, but if you watch enough in stand up, you'll know they're not all great. Like, there's a lot of people making a good living who aren't that good. The same thing in any industry, probably and the same thing. Like look at us we went last three years, we made a living and we're not the best radio show, but we were willing to commit to it and work hard at it and and we have a certain level of ability of certain level of talent. So is that not ease is talent then about
the doing versus like focusing on the actual thing?
Like, is it Yeah, I wonder if they if the talent is actually in line with the
you put this
so part of part of the talent he's actually like the doing business
Rather than what the intent is, yeah, hundred percent and so like, remember in high school way you'd have, you'd have people and I did this myself, but you'd go
I got to see in that test and I didn't even try. Yeah, but you'd you wouldn't try because you're afraid of failing. Right? And so people would you know, you hear this said about people that like all that really smart but they didn't try and scope Yeah. And and you go well, were they really that smart then? Cuz? Wouldn't if you were smart? Wouldn't you try? And so but what they're saying is they they have natural intelligence, but isn't a part of intelligence applying yourself. And so it's I think it's just how we define those things. So you're saying just to that, you know, maybe being really maybe I'm a great singer, and people think that's a talent. But are you saying that when we say talent, we should also incorporate the ability? Yeah, getting on stage, the ability to sell yourself the ability to market yourself the ability to be kicked out at not often not when it's really hot.
Today is that what you're saying? We need to broaden the definition of talent. Yeah, well, yeah, I think that the talent that Yeah, the talent comes from you, if you are a talented writer but you're not writing Are you is that talent is there's an element of runs on the board or there's
actually, talent I feel like only comes to fruition when it's being done. And so unless you are doing it unless you and so that's what like, the closest thing to become talented is the process of da we something I'd say all the time. It's like as when you work in teams, I'm sure you guys do it yourself as you look at your peers around you and you take that there.
And whenever there was a negative whenever those negative thoughts about people making videos or a radio show around, so that wasn't very good. I always used to think well, something's better than nothing. What did we do on that? We didn't do anything. And so like any
Instantly cuz they made something it was better than what we did. And so I think there's, there's something really to be said about just making something and putting it out there and continuously doing it. And to go back to the delusion. The delusion is, you know, when it gets 10 likes
somehow motivating yourself to do it again. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, very true. I love it. Zack, thank you for coming on the show, buddy. It's been great talking to you. Pleasure, guys. I really enjoyed talking to you. I would love to have you back on as well. And you're doing your own videos on YouTube as well. If you search sec manager on YouTube, you'll come up there. Yes, I'll probably not ready to promote that publicly.
That's a high level of dilution.
Got it. Awesome. It's a daily talk show tomorrow guys have a good one. See you guys.