#562 – Commercialising Your Brand With Belinda Wall/
- December 30, 2019
Belinda Wall is back! We chat about discounts and loyalty programs, enneagram personality tests, and what we’ve learned in 2019 about The Daily Talk Show’s brand.
On today’s episode of The Daily Talk Show, we discuss:
– Belinda’s AeroPress Coffee Maker
– Discounting and branding
– Loyalty programs
– Emails and communications
– Enneagram personality tests
– Looking after yourself
– The Daily Talk Show’s 2019 brand learnings
– Types of business cultures
– Personal brands
Belinda on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/_brandamplified_/
Belinda’s website: http://www.brandamplified.com.au/
Email us: firstname.lastname@example.org
Send us mail: PO BOX 400, Abbotsford VIC 3067
The Daily Talk Show is an Australian talk show and daily podcast by Tommy Jackett and Josh Janssen. Tommy and Josh chat about life, creativity, business, and relationships — big questions and banter. Regularly visited by guests and gronks! If you watch the show or listen to the podcast, you’re part of the Gronk Squad.
This podcast is produced by BIG MEDIA COMPANY. Find out more at https://bigmediacompany.com/
The Daily Talk Show Episode 562 Linda wall welcome back. Thanks
cuz you were in the crowd of 500
I was such great night I'm so glad the winner winner chicken dinner
so glad you won the the pole rover sorry Winner Winner Nando's very good
How is it the poor I've it's gone narrow per aeropress
Is it a poor guys different scenario for us? Yeah,
looks like a big syringe. I'm gonna be honest. Okay,
firstly, I was thrilled because I've never I've never won something that was amazing. Secondly, my my partner Jordan was sitting next to me He also won. Perfect. So he came home with a $50 nandos
I'm not sure if he's use it yet. Yeah, anyway, have to increase that one.
It's definitely time of year by the way where vouchers so brain I house set $200 chinchin voucher Yeah, which we have to use this year,
we used one on Friday, we went to Marion, we had one from Christmas last year got to
get into. The other interesting thing on this point very quickly is
back. So if it's after I think November 1, if you got your voucher after November 1, retail shops and restaurants and things, unless they're like, there's a couple of caveats around if it's super discounted or things like that. They have to give you three years, even if the expiry date has before that
yeah, that's exciting. Good to know everyone, this time of year,
especially if you can if you could,
yeah, yeah, well, I bought my brother. Double pass to the movies. Gold class, never used it and that was too long ago. So I'm kind of over buying people anything to do with.
I can actually say I am an app or business model in here whereby you know, you get a batchi scan, you scan your bacha, and then it automatically gives you calendar reminders. Oh, that's a good idea. Or maybe you can even do swapsies
Yeah, how about the there is actually a bunch of the that was like I think it Yeah, it's exactly I want to sell it off. If I got $100 I'll sell it. Someone's got 50 bucks for this nugget. $100 value leg, right. It makes sense. So the
Okay, so I was warm night driving home. Right. Great event. Fabulous celebrations. This is going yeah. And I and we were dropping homes quite a big box. The aeropress was, so the conversation was okay. Basically, we live in a townhouse just a partner and on. There's not much right. Okay, it's not
eating happy. Are you in the Detroit
area However, we both like coffee you've already we already had we have not. Okay, we we have a pod machine we have a percolate. We have
already got no room.
Yeah, we've got a one of those beautiful thermos ones that you can brew coffee and sit in for a long time. Anyway, and then we've got this other bubble percolator thing how to describe it looks like a drip coffee
is that the drip coffee?
Like go to a diner type of thing. It's
close to that looks like one of those hourglass time is
a brand like a Breville or something.
No, definitely not rebels given us.
Anyway, so we've got quite a lot of coffee apparatuses.
So what are we gonna do with this air price? When is it gonna get you camping? I think I mentioned that. But
anyway, we decided this would be great. The beach house.
Osama bin because it's coffee moment. It's okay It's gonna take a little bit longer yeah of course so and not just for us because it's not our beach house let's be honest it's so it's it's going to the beach this gamma and it's going to be used for when people want to take a good hour to make a coffee sit there read the paper, so I'll do an Insta story guys
appreciate it that's long as I'm glad I didn't get regular but they definitely did not get
ready for it we did discuss it
No we didn't at all the beautiful gold strolls have not been used yet. Mostly I think on
maybe give it to you nice.
I'd be okay if you're a gifted the gold scroll. Because I think it's spreading.
That's it's something that I'm not like they look right. Yeah. And it has a little strong claim. I think it's about three different kinda strolls in their kids love
them like it is it's a trendy thing to have
really Yeah. Okay.
I'll tell you just quickly when I was working at a radio station, Should I got would you know this is Melvin way for us to destroy yet a gold straw like is
it a bad if it that I haven't used this role?
I would find a reason Yeah, I think I probably turned my coffee like I'd probably put in my coffee cup but the other thing too is
we have tried the aeropress okay
know I think I saw you did a Insta story on that I didn't appreciate sorry, but the problem I think with a straw which my mom's a dental nurse and she gets really into these nuances like that where lemon water was missing Miranda was doing that she's like,
I see that in your tea.
Yeah, all these things yeah, brushing your teeth. I have a feeling metal straws and getting you actually going to potentially Can you look that 97 But
then again, wouldn't she be happy that you know putting the caffeine
I reckon, I reckon should say traditional plastic from a shot from a cop anything on the 97 about teeth and metal straws. I mean,
just hurting. Imagine my people in the car. Yeah. Oh, my running running with a stroke like buddy runs with a spoon in his mouth. I have to constantly tell him you're not
already a gold plated.
What he's not worth it. I don't think it's gold. It's God's gala and
I mean there's an anecdote
from a bloke on Twitter who said he chipped his tooth comb using a metal straw,
about a third of his front tooth. Oh, that's good. That's expensive. I'm not prepared to take the reins. And I got given a expensive coffee machine that ready session, the host of the show didn't wanted who wants this nice. Got it. It's amazing. It was 300 plus dollars. I took it to Christmas and we're doing Bad Santa. This is a few years back. And I put it in and so everyone's fighting to get this thing was only a $45 limit or something wasn't bad Santa. I mean, you get like classic scratches or like okay. tickets, tats lotto tickets so sorry, what if you actually get 1 million from Bad Santa? So I like the lotto tickets. I don't want the other shoes, but there's a lot of crap because it ends up being $40 limit 45 buck limit.
I was having this conversation with my sisters the other day is it there's nothing worse than those moments where you're walking through a shopping centre around Christmas time and you had that feeling of Oh my god, the clock's ticking. I don't know what to get. I just gotta get something. Yeah, that's awful feeling. It's just that. It's, it's just gross. And you look around and you say everyone else just mindlessly going. That'll do. That'll do.
Like, I do that on Amazon. When I do it all online. It's very much like you're thinking about Okay, what is
it? It's a sale. It's semi panic. Got to get it $40 limit that'll do. So what if I don't get it right? Yes, yeah,
exactly. I mean, you're across branding and I want to get your thoughts on this chemist warehouse recently did like a 30% off frenzy for x Yes. And they got like picture shitty plastic black plastic bags and they've put them up on and use tape it again it was like gaffa and it just looks so sheet it looked like it was going into liquidation. Exactly. I thought like that so is it a tactic because it makes you think sales hotels is just crap is like we need to get this sound going. It coming to run out of stock. But I was thinking Do you think it's a play around? Yeah, make it look sheet on purpose to sort of the old school sale like you closing around that style? Oh my goodness, we reckon
it, it actually it wouldn't surprise me I would say that I have quite loose guidelines around their approach to discounting and pushing through stock. I was in chemist warehouse the other day I did say I mean the volume of stock that they've got carrying at any one moment in time is massive. And they also last they love I love the tags everything looks like it's on tires yeah yeah.
I don't know the garbage bag things pretty extreme.
Yeah taken to the next level be high fighters It feels like it appeals to the gronk because if you think about my kids that it's like EB Games 97 I feel like you would have used a big games back in the day. Yeah, I loved a Wii games. There's always one of the things about a big games you can always notice
all this all the stickers they've got they've got all like the sort of like a triangle shaped sort of stickers and they stick them up at the front of the entrance when you walk in and it's like, you know, 20% off ps3 games or something like that. It's got
j Bay is big for it is what it is all the time and again, yeah.
Sales frenzy like it. Yeah, you're right, like plastering in every way makes you It builds like I need to get a bit of
that urgency. I think I'm What I have noticed is that, you know, you don't even have to be around Boxing Day time. The pre Christmas discounts and the offers and the sale, the volume of discounting and specials and sales that hit your inbox daily. For every day of December is extreme, you almost feel and I actually and I have a birthday in December as well so then you get all the whole, you know Timpson off $20 voucher, you gotta use these before and then I got I get to a state where am I? Am I missing out on opportunities? Yeah, you know, really discouraging device ology. And it really does push, push, push, but I feel like back in the day, they used to be this whole anti Patreon Boxing Day. retailers and brands are just discounting all over the shop now, like the entire Christmas shopping,
it sort of stuff. And just sort of like Black Friday is now an entire week.
And also what was the difference between Black Friday and Cyber Monday?
Yeah, well, there wasn't like it will talking to our mate, Rob from quite luck. And they do do these phone cases. And the amount of selling they do around that time, but they, they're so strategic around it where it's like, it starts I think even before the Friday and they're sending they have a huge they have a slightly high unsubscribe rate and they're doing like they'll do four emails in that time and they actually still get on the Monday evening, the final time people can get it people still.
Yeah, it's huge when you're working at two times two, yes. Especially in a meeting where you're with the marketing team you I mean, you are the marketing Yes. But with the the wider team. Yeah.
You actually thinking ahead and going How can we not manipulate but like, what are the tactics here? Oh, absolutely convert to say it's interesting because when I was in that role, and our head of a columns. So this was you know, five years ago, five, six years ago ahead of, you know, five to five to seven years ago when I was actually in amongst it and our head of a comms had actually come or he's a California so he come from the States and he was instrumental in kind of pushing for Black Friday discounts and Cyber Monday and so forth. And then at that point in time was very new in Australia. Everyone's like what he what he told me at least Black Friday, I think Firstly, we went to discounting brand. So we always have to push like put together a very strong case for discounting. And it was was very limited, but you do have to forward plan so you sit down. It's not just a decision based on marketing. So you sit down with your planners and your forecasters and you look at, okay, what stock levels do we have, what stock Do we need to push through and get rid of in time, you know, ahead of summer? Sorry, it's it's very much a roundtable conversation between marketing A comms planning, you know, head of sales, etc. It's always it's a highly strategic decision and you generally have to plan you know, months out
going from a business that doesn't discount to one that does. I mean, that's seems like a big decision big move.
Yeah, inside especially.
We really did. So we always toward things like gift with purchase or more like setting up competition style incentives, more value add as a part of the strategy as opposed to you know, discounting was very rare. We probably discount maybe once or twice a year,
so any brand that doesn't discount these days, I think,
yeah, like premium brands don't
wouldn't get like a Tiffany's discounting like come in 25%
on the straight I bought my wife's ring and those Tiffany's is discount
that they don't like it even hi Tiger brainworks is the marketing director. There. There's the be gone. It's the gift with purchase stuff bundles
or you know, Christmas you can. Exactly so you're incentivizing certain packages or bundles and there's a way of doing it. That's not
discount. Okay, this is a brand play for premium. Is that what the premium brands don't discount? Is that?
Yeah, so what do you think? Yeah, yeah, I mean that's that's the strategy you don't want to chip in. Cheap in the value of the product that you're trying to push. So it is I am. Yeah, I mean, you don't you don't you're not competing on price. That's the whole idea of a premium brand or a high price price point brand.
Yeah, woollen prints like these Merino t shirts that I always wear. They never discount, but they do do the thing of like, buy over 200 bucks and get a free pair of socks. Yeah. And so
yeah, it's an interesting which those socks probably just would have been made for that promotion. Yeah. I mean, I think that's also so you know, we would plan quite far and events and promotions. For example, might be The start of the knee is very big time the fitness industry needs resolutions, etc, etc. So here, what product are we going to make to throw into the bundle? You know, was it a sweat towel? Was it a drink bottle? Was it going to be limited edition or we're just going to use stock that's not moving, all that kind of stuff.
I mean, a lot of this stuff's becoming more known to the consumer.
Yeah, no, I get the socks. Yep, I got the socks.
Yeah, but the thing is, like, I guess you're priming. There is a lot of retailers now that have primed the audience or the customer yet to only buy on sale. Yeah. So for instance, like my mom's shops at Suzanne's and she will only ever Yeah, she's playing this game of when it's on discount. And then every time she spends a certain amount, she gets like a $20
gantry. Right, a perfected that model with the whole spin inside. Yeah. And they re framed that entire sort of programme and loyalty. Yeah, so was probably about two years ago now. I think they, they restructured it. And it was blowing my mind when they did it because in terms of the back end of that, it just would have been a complete and fuck of a digital transformation. Yeah, um, but most, most leading retailers now have a loyalty programme in place that's quite evolved and completely, you know, beautifully Mary's in all the touch points. So I spent here they had that spin and save model, but then it's also it's kind of like a cuantas frequent flyer model as well. So you've got like a status. So you know, gold, silver, bronze or what have you or platinum. And it tells you frequently like what you're up to, or you only have to spend another $30 by this date to go on or to retain this status. They send you little perks now and then so I think on you know, on Sunday, speaking to birthday perks and so forth. I think it was Sunday. ammonium like all this spend and saves inning tonight plus I've got $30 birthday credit really should get there. Oh god no. I'm a 545 on Sunday night like surely I've got to get something I've got to and then also you leave and I also felt felt really dirty when I left lift two things just going to actually need those things. Is it the shirt you're wearing? It's lovely. It's not
very country right? Yes I do. Very well. Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah.
Yeah. I'm working with country road on some shoots and if we're in there and we've we've been working with country road videos. No, um, yeah, I mean, they they asked me but I said
I've got another way more of a rotting gun. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Right. Gotta get brand. Yeah. No, I was talking to my mom. She was saying I think it's with war. This where, when you're at the register, it will tell you. So you putting three purchase was the causal release, but it will say hey, you've got 75 points or something and with those points you can get two sets of like drinking glasses. So you just tell them and then they bring it out which
but that's just yeah it's frustrating that it's just that fading that incredible consumerism and just absolute superfluous amount of shit yeah in this world plastics and consumables and just fmcg or what is going little
What are those things called? She's She's like it's
just in my fucking car in the side but he
is a consumer when you go Do you know what i would prefer
to send off my bill. I don't want similar situation.
It was last week. I got my a ding dong front door and I got my annual third
annual hit From my financial advisor,
oh really? I mean, the financial advisor
to get that was at the beach house address. So this is
the business guy. I'm not indulgent, but it's funny because I had this conversation with the girlfriend 12 months ago also runs a business and you guys, that's my worst time. I always look at it and think I paid for that. Like, the last one, then yeah, then I opened it up and it's always full of things that I can't I got a lot of attention tolerance is
great for gifting. Yeah.
Champagne can go to a Christmas party. Yep. It's always a duco
it was always like a Rob Yeah, yeah, you
sprinkle it on eggs. You could
put it on my lamb like shredded lamb.
You know that it's kind of a promotional value rides of the fitness world, but those pillars were actually by Dr. Aaron Roberts
a sample thing do you think he's got a client like she's a financial advisor have a client or something that's
a really great product no i think that someone just walked around layers and
layers is that's high quality
ya know what
do you think of that orange juice not so good because it wasn't
your cue anything goes down to Leo's yeah perfect afternoon Yeah,
well they very good
This smell right brand experience you
think they like these are all touch points from brands to try and bring value or make you think about the more like we're talking about the things we're onto the financial guy
is that deeper emotional connection? Yep. And Association
when we're on to it like you talking about the hammers like Dude, save you cash back I'd rather Yes. You ever save your cash that you could have
passed on to the customer? You could have kept?
Like if you didn't get the habit, what would you feel? Would you be paid? Or you
set up the expectation? So they did.
Yeah. That you do have the expectation
white lie. It was second week in December. I was like if we do any day now
and then the doorbell rang and three lovely girls delivering handle and I said you guys doing the rounds where everyone today? Yep.
Are they from the actual Yeah. Okay. I live an outsourced
but you know what? When you're a consultant, you didn't get a lot of Christmas party. Yeah, you get a Christmas.
Lovely. No, I think there is. There is something nice in that I always an unexpected gift. Yeah. And I would like to, I think one of my brand values is generosity, not very bit then combine that with the admin involved in getting gifts. It's actually quite a bit of friction for me. Oh, definitely. Because yet very generous, but don't Anything Yeah. And so I would like to in a future life, or potentially sometime in the future, maybe it's when I get my virtual assistant, I don't know. I'm going to be great. Yeah. What do you think about the virtual assistant? By the way?
You know, I have. It's one of those things I have heard a lot about, like murmurs about virtual assistants, but again, don't know anyone that has used one.
Have you had an assistant before?
In my current business,
in life in life through your whole existence? Have you ever had someone that you would know I wouldn't
call them and assistant, someone, someone that I
know, I'm going to say no, yeah.
Not direct, because it wouldn't be nice. Like,
because it I would say, yeah, there's assistant, you want to even use that term anymore?
Yeah, definitely. My personal aside.
Yeah, right. No, one's a separate anymore
to personal assistants
Yeah, that makes sense reinvented themselves. Jeff Jarrett who we've had on before made a lot of money lost at all. When he lost all his money he didn't know how to pay phone bill because he had so many people doing shit for him so there is diminishing returns
engineered outsourcing the shoot the shoot actually I had to do 100% in quite an efficient person anyway so I think there are a
look my work volumes not to the point yet where I need someone to manage the inbox
better be outside.
I don't know I don't. I think when you when you are a little bit type it might be I enjoy that stuff as well.
I do I enjoy it once I've done it. And I always have the moment of like, oh, why don't I do this more often? The admins responding to emails or something,
you know, taking off stuff.
Yeah, so I've started I've got in my notes now. Like a to do list ticking off. Yeah, that sort of works well, do you? What are the habits that you have created for yourself to make sure that you are being that type a
person? And maybe specifically the 2019? Did you do this year?
To make sure that and being that person, oh, there's a couple of So, or it also, on the flip side, knowing that I am like that. Sometimes I can get buried in emails, for example. Whereas I know that that's not really where I should be focusing my because it's not work. So if I know I need to focus on something, then I'll close the email browser, just make sure that I'm not on it. If I can see it, and I can say something coming through. I find it very hard not to. Yeah, yeah. Or even respond to it right there in the moment. I can't really leave things yeah, sorry. I need to just not say it. So close the email browser off and just deep dive, or quite often open print things off, as opposed to print working, if it's like a white paper or some research or I'll print it off and just close the lead and actually physically remove myself from the boss and just get through it get get the old highlighter out
directly one spend how long a day on email?
Oh, it's really hard to calculate man, isn't it?
So it's not like you don't have you don't sort of going to define times where it's like, between 9am and midday I'm getting back to my email and then I'm gonna do
know a lot that I'm diligent with batching And plus, see, my day is often dictated by what client's needs as well or where my meeting sit. So any one day will be quite different from another.
What do you think if you did do the batching thing? It sounds great and reality, but
why do you leave? A lot of people do eat that right? So they say okay, between, you know, not a lot of people actually leave the emails to the end of the day.
I've never been, I've never really batched
Do you think it would be beneficial? I've thought about doing it, but then it's like, would you I know, it was like, sorry, I can't touch it,
but just doing my thing is I'm doing it anyway. But it's this unintentional, just like, I haven't done an email to like, I don't believe in email I used when I was younger, and I was freelancing, especially working just solo on my own. Yeah, it was always email, right? Because that was the only way that you're corresponding,
oh, it's important part of what I do. Yeah, absolutely. Because you have to just, you know, respond to clients and make sure you're on top of things and also that's part of your brand is how quickly you can respond and resolve issues and consultant all that sort of stuff. And so, I do spend quite a bit of time there but I don't know how you could kind of because it's always
Yeah, well, cuz that's why I feel is like Yeah, sometimes times I appreciate the short shot like someone that's it just sends yeah sounds great or whatever yeah whereas I think I over engineer where I've like if I've gotten a long email and like needed go through and dry yeah I think that there is something in the quicker approach of just first thought go thing worth I think my go to wheeze I read an email and then I'm like, this requires more than 30 seconds leave it for another time Yeah, then another email comes and that's the same thing and so you
good at so if you leave it for another time. Do you do you always go back to it?
Well, it's I don't archive it. So I try and I live in. Yeah, so it's I live in a Inbox Zero world but the inbox is never zero. But the thing is, so I can like the other like, yesterday I got to an email that I a chain that was like from September, which is Pretty like it's a long period of time. The funny thing is I'm sorry for the die and they're like are we know it's a busy time of year? This was from September. But you know, I think there is. I definitely say that there but there is a probably, it's hard because say with the daily talk show. This is on that branding pays. Yeah, we get a bunch of emails.
Do you guys have separate inboxes for daily talk show in big media? Hi, the daily talk show.com
Yeah, but it's where we get one inbox. Yeah. So they all see within our the context of our email clients, we see them as one. Yes. And so there has been that conversation throughout the year of like, hey, do we what are we doing with, you know, what are we doing with email, like the daily talk show? Like, I'm just going to start archiving them because I want to sort of keep things clean. Yeah. But it's also that thing of so the brand, this is what we're trying to work out, I guess from an internal communications point of view, the brand value of being great, it comes back to people and I don't think That was necessarily our thoughts. Normally what happens is, if it's, if we're not sure, if we're like trying to work it out, if it requires too much friction, it doesn't get dealt with, right? Because it's like, okay, we don't have anything that is actually of value for this person. But I think there is something in potentially getting good at he's in. He might have been a template, but he's a quick response that we can send. So it's done in a few it's actually
a template, isn't it? It's it's your default response for those sorts of scenarios or queries that don't fit. Yeah, where you just go, Okay, this is how
this is how it because otherwise, I mean, that that could potentially save you a couple of hours away.
Well, also, it's only a couple hours a week I find that these things it's the residual
load. Yeah, for sure. On the other side, the benefit to the brand of a touch point, the person that never got back versus the person Do said, Hi, sorry, we're on a project. Work on that for you, but any other time?
You know, again, back in two times you days, we used to have so many requests for sponsorship. You know, I'm doing this charity fund run, I'm climbing this mountain, I'm doing this and the other and you you can't have a bespoke answer for every single person to a degree. Yes, you can tweak it, but then it has to be some sort of efficiency to your columns.
For sure. I think there's definitely something in that 22 2020 What are you trying to get better at?
Sorry, I've had the pleasure and the privilege of working with a coach for the first time in the last couple of months. And that's been really interesting. So hey, I'm Clint Bissell, former former NFL player now resilience, leadership, courage, and it He is also trained in enneagram personality profiling. I don't know if you guys have heard about moneygram. So up into this year, I've always kind of resisted the whole personality profiling thing quite quite a lot. Have you guys done it?
before? Yeah, I did it when I was doing the coaching. Yeah, course my wife has just done it and she's obsessed. What was that? She just sent me her stuff. I'll just tell you the brand or whatever the mind was. The D was
like Myers Briggs. Yeah, okay. So I did that when I was working the fibre guide in the media department. I was like a train a
facet five. facet five testing. She's actually sent me one and this woman who specialises in it. Should we should both do it. Yeah. And then they sort of just talk to us about it's quite
fascinating. We're doing so I have resisted it a lot in my career and in my personal life in the past, I think because from a personal branding perspective, I've always been very wary about people. Hope Onto narratives or, you know, maybe 5678 years ago and you've been given some feedback by might be a manager might be a person in your life that told you that you were x. And you somehow hung on to that over the last, however many years and sort of thought, well, that's not me because I MDS, you know, and I think some, some people more than others can kind of end up prescribing to us it narrative. I would be wary, it's funny, I don't read horoscopes for the same reason, because I feel like knowing May I will just cling on to it. It's like, even though I don't really believe in that kind of stuff. I feel like I know my personality would sort of hold on to things that I've read.
What about if the things that you read served you though?
So that's something that I through this process So the enneagram personality profiling, I think it comes up with 12 different models. So you take a 45 to 50 minute online survey. And it's all it's it's quite an interactive, how do you describe it when it sort of changes or choose
your own adventure? It's a dynamic,
its dynamic. So in terms of the way it dishes up your questions, it does it live based on you know, the answers that you you're spitting in. So as on on the back of off the back of the answers that I gave through this process, a week later, my report came back and it was like a 38 to 40 page document that really stepped you through everything from you know, your strengths and weaknesses to like your default how you manage other people, good, other personalities within the spectrum that you compliment. compliment your personality, that particular traits that might be challenging for you. And I for the first time i've you know, read this through in in high detail and found it incredibly telling in terms of the why behind my behaviours and why I do things. So I think for the first time I was really starting to question the motivations like the deep motivations behind my defaults
didn't feel like it, it could be less personal like you you could read it and consume it because it was something you put in the input data. Yeah. And then it is sort of in a non judgmental way come out with Hey, this is the this is because really, you put you inputted Yep, information and it's just come back with it rather than, say the emotional stuff that comes with doing a 360 review where people are providing feedback.
endo. Um, I didn't really think about it that
do you think your feedback normally like if someone gives you feedback within the context of sort of, you know, work or?
Yeah, I think so. I mean, I always take it quite personally.
I'm always I'm always interested in, in feedback and I'm always interested in growing and learning but I think what I've learned about myself over the last few months has been quite significant. And the way in which small daily behaviours have changed my approach to work and my outputs a result have been quite exponential.
Most telling thing
I'm so my personality is by nature, a real giver.
I like to give, give give. And there was also, I think I started to question or there's a real insight around what what is the motivation behind that giving? Is it actually because you're trying to value add for other people? Or is it more about what you're getting back yourself internally? And what also what are the expectations that you're you have as a result of that giving, like, does it come with something and I'd never thought so deeply about what my expectations were there as a result of giving. And I do it a lot through by nature of my work professionally, but also personally, because I enjoy it, you know, enjoy giving things and going over and above. And so in terms of from a client and a business perspective,
Being a lot more
cognizant and wary about over delivering all the time, because I think we can often live in that place, especially, you know, living that kind of consultant life is making sure that you are showing that you're delivering good value. It's a protective mechanism because
like, if I provide more value than I think that should be giving Yeah, then I can go to bed every night knowing that what I charge when I show up in the world,
yeah, because I think one of my deepest fears is I would hate for a client to feel like I haven't gotten good value or they've been shortchanged or so there's this constant. I'll just give a bit more a bit more, a bit more. But how how long do you keep doing that before it actually ends up when you're being hamstrung and it can also compromise your earning capacity because you're giving too many hours. It can also burn you out. And also in in it just you're looking for value. Through that giving too much, I think so, just in terms of 2019, probably learning a lot more about truly how to work smarter rather than harder. I think, what does that look like for you? being really measured about how much energy I put into my work often and also being so we came up with this kind of the, the core takeaway for me was being a master of protecting the motherfucking acid, which is yourself, right? So especially as a as a consultant when you're running your own business, it if you're not feeling great yourself or feeling depleted, ultimately, that's going to manifest in your work and you're not going to be delivering the best work. So you have to self care LIKE A BOSS when you run your own business, basically and you have to treat that as as important as your client work. I know that sounds incredibly simple and
it just it is probably one of the most powerful insights I suppose. And it's, it's okay to say that but to actually deliver on that insight is something quite different. So, learning how to respect yourself as much as you respect the work and the clients.
I mean, you guys would do you struggle with that at all?
Was it listening to your body is at work? In essence it is it's,
it's not just you. Yeah, it's your it's not just your body was your mind as well as.
So you have to create, create time for there's a lot of
there's a lot of
Sort of discourse out there at the moment around, you know,
professionals or executive athletes as well. So in terms of high performance coaching in that a suite C suite space is trading rest and recovery lock you are an athlete because to build a sustainable Korea truly sustainable one on a sustainable life, we need to be taking up taking care of ourselves and putting rules in place, you know around technology around how many hours of sleep you're getting, you know, do you want to you want to be going longer, stronger for longer as opposed to just go go go right here right now. Because if I'm burnt out, I don't have any sleep late. I don't have any like, you know, I can't take take sick leave or stress level whatever. So no one else is going to get the work done with my You have a habit?
Yeah, I think it's a it's interesting because when you, especially being in the branding space, yes, you have, as you sort of said, with the email your brand is that you get to pace really quickly. Yeah. Yeah. And so there's a part of me, which my approach to email is self preservation. Yes. And so like from a consistency, and that's why I always find type A, and this an interesting thing, because I think that in some areas, I'm really type A, but then what sort of areas I think around consistency, so saying, like, say with the, if I'm, if I know if I've got an idea, and I know that it's going to serve the future, I think I can put in effort for a long period of time. Yes. I like the idea of the daily talk show being you know, doing It's seven days and doing all that sort of thing. And that's, that's where I think that comes in. However, I also prioritise and drop everything else. So I've got that focus, potentially obsession where I could obsess about something.
But it's, it's in Do you think it's selective obsession, though? Yeah.
Yeah. So there's, there's something I think that there's probably. So if I was good at email, what does it mean to be good? I'll say that Yeah. When so good at email is being quick at responding.
Yeah, efficiency, timeliness, exactly. personalization,
isolation, all of those things where I'm like, okay, so I go through moments where like, where I say, I want to be the best at email. Well, it's like, because the thing is that one of the strong values for me is communication and strong relationships. Yeah. However, the thing that I find is the email Doesn't necessarily hold the deep relationships that I'm seeking. I think that like the common sort of idea that phones are bad or whatever, I think actually for Arkan phone calls that the new in person like I think that there's so much power in. Okay, I've got, I'm filling my favourites list on my iPhone if I These are people who I'm going to speak to Whitley. I'm just going to call them
that's an interesting one D guys because I think in today's day and age, you probably only have maybe a handful people in your life who you know, are there. They're cola. They're fine person. Yeah. You guys find people, as in will call as opposed to text.
I mean, I've got my my best mates and some that I have always been call was with.
we used to just always catch up on the phone. He loves a good chat. I love a good chat. And we just chat. This is cup of blokes chatting. A little gossip. He's doing Yeah, he's down the coast now. So it's the only way we text every now Then, but I, sometimes we just randomly chat. Yeah, but I appreciate it.
Yeah, in terms of the brand, you guys,
it's an interesting,
we need to get the name out as a daily talk show operation. So for instance, like the calendar, like we've automated that where it's like sending a calendar request to someone, they get all the details. But the the next level, I don't think it's necessarily me with the skill set that I have to do it. But I think that we need to be across every email and sending out
just that systems and processes. Exactly.
And so just especially with the more and more sort of PR opportunities that we get with brands and things like that it sort of compounds.
So what's going to be your vetting procedure? And yet What are all those kind of templates that you're going to have in place? Yeah, I mean, you could write that as your holiday. Yeah. What
is it that someone's job or someone has to be on the receiving into that,
well, it's I guess there's a, there's a guess we need to work out. Okay, what? Yes
and No, you could have the templates ready to go. And then any of you could just yeah, you know what I mean?
And so it shouldn't be hot. The hilarious thing about these things is they're, they're actually, once they're ready and being implemented. They're not that difficult. It's just a very specific choice of VCs. This is the role. And so the thing is, if your role is by 6pm, every evening, the inbox is empty. Yeah. That's like a very easy thing to make sure that like, then it never becomes an issue. Right.
So exactly, but it's, it's it's an interesting test for your brand around what, what is a rule book? What does it look like? Yeah. So what does that mean? You know, what? What does efficient columns look like to you? Does that mean a 24 hour response? Right? Doesn't mean 48 hour does it mean? Actually, we're going to call everyone that comes on the show for a 15 minute briefing, or what's the debrief look like? And when we send out, you know, the assets post show, what's that email going to look like? And how can we formalise some of the stuff that we're kind of doing by night now? Maybe not some of the stuff that we aren't we're not. I'm sorry. good segue. Looking back on 2019. And you guys as a brand, what are some of the biggest learnings Have you have you had time to sort of take stock and
yeah, I think you need to do a whole bunch to work out where the focus should be. So the email thing is only because the show's got bigger. We've had more in Bay. So until we work out that Yeah, you can, you could obsess over before you get the inbound, which doesn't really give it the the tangible feel When you actually start having it come in, but um, yeah, 2019 it's just it's been a year of learning for us understanding what it actually means to build an audience. We've worked with so many brands catering to their audience or understanding what we should be creating for them to target a specific type of audience. But then there's there's something you actually starting to have people listen and consistent in a group of people have
you done my brain just ping every day reflective, like a content analysis to look at. These are all the kinds of horses that we've had. And these are all the different industries that we've touched and the conversations.
Yes, definitely. So that's where like, we're talking the other day about getting someone who's a data scientist who wants because we've got like, there's very few shows in the world that are doing video that are doing audio that are doing like we transcribed Yeah, through, you know, ai or whatever. All of the episodes so we have we think we can do things like midnight seven can can look up specific topics. Yeah, you can say you know word word clouds and all that. Yeah, right. Yeah, there's definitely. So for instance, one of them is like Sundays. So the thing that so we we have put our assumptions to the test, one of the assumptions that we had was around podcasts tend to get people on once they have a deep conversation. And that's it. What happens if you're doing a show for 10 years, and you have the same people on multiple times? What happens if it's not about Tommy, or if it's about everything else that's around it. So scooter, Derek, being it you know, I use 79 at the event. He's got a, he's building a character within the community that we have, which then gives us more options. You need for creativity. So means that if we are doing a live show, we can actually throw to him young people have buy in better. So there's there's that side of things around the Sunday stuff and the data, what we are working towards is exporting out all of the data that we have over the past two years. Working out days, let's work out what days are doing best yet. Working out. We can do stuff like the difference between a listener and a download so we can see, okay, the average listener is listening to three episodes awake, things like that. be awake constantly, I think
we're about to die.
Yeah, so time of day, it's hard because of like geography and different areas. 70% of our audience are Australian, and then 70% of that 70% based in Melbourne. So I think that it's fair to say that at the beginning of We're sort of going from more of a global thing. We've actually probably narrowed in to let's nail on what we can do in Melbourne and in Australia.
Yeah. And then the question is what what do you do with this data? So if we aren't the people that can understand this will have the time to put it into release of spit out the other side? The the exact the information? What do you do with it? And this is what someone said this to us before? Are you looking at all these things drop off, right. But there is a element of it's like, yes. So you your assumption is if you listen to that, and you act on the fate, the data, the feedback, it will in turn give you some other results. Yeah, so it will increase listenership that has to be the assumption based on someone encouraging you to look at the data look at the data.
I think there's a difference though between looking at something at a weekly level and a yearly level.
Right. So I mean, the more data you have, the more powerful it is. Yeah, but I think the tricky thing is when you looking at daughter and you doing content analysis is it is it the day of the podcast, That was the guest you had was at the time of day. Was it? all the other stuff that was trending online at that point in time? Yeah. And itself? Yes. Yes. What? Is it growing the category? You know, is it the fact that podcasts in general just keep growing and growing or?
These definitely patterns? Right.
there's definitely patterns. Yeah, I think and so, like, I think that we can look at that. I think that I'm more disciplined.
Okay, so broad things or patterns or takeaways from 2019 in terms of the brand. So
like, I think, the patterns so what I love about what we do from a brand perspective, is the guests are fairly broad, but they all have something in common like I think there is a through line. So what is that commonality? I think the the commonalities a willingness to walk up here and come on the show, I think if you willing to do that, yeah, you're ready. Taking some form of box, which is okay with ambiguity. Yeah, because it's not that 15 minutes. So yeah, by design not having a 15 minute call beforehand,
but I love that that's like that's almost like a value. Right. Okay with ambiguity like literally capturing that and formalising and owning
Yeah, like Andrew owl who we had on who we did the improv with where she was going back into a CNN days and doing all that sort of thing like to be able to enter it. You could have so many different news anchors, yeah, with completely different personalities. But people love that episode. And they really enjoyed what she brought to the table because she just had a few sets of values, which is just showing up leaning in. Same with Michael bungay stanier. It's like, we do coach live coaching with Harry. And so I think that that's the thread for everyone. But then it's also it's about bringing me People who are very contrasting, you know, in sort of personalities. So you have people who are high performance business. Let's talk numbers.
Yes, diversity in talent and diversity in story and experience and so forth. Yeah.
And so that's another element of it. Then Yeah, outside of that, I think it is the like, what people like Mr. 97 brings, or what Harry brings, or three day deal bring us or what Queen gronk brings, like, all these different people who have become the shower. Yeah, I think is like, in 20 2020. I think that's the exciting thing. It's like, you look at all the people that we've had involved in the show. These are like new relationships. And so think about like, where the power is in 12 months time. What's your external I guess you're in the community too. So there is that element, but what
is hugely important to you guys, um, I was writing an article
was Harvard, Harvard Business Review.
Denise young is the author. She She writes one of some of the best brand articles and does a lot of research and branding. And she came up with just this week, a nine, a nine point model or an a framework of nine different types of brands. And I was thinking about you guys when I was writing, and she sort of, I think the non were around,
I'm not gonna remember them all. Can you bring it up? Yeah,
what was the name again? Denise, Denise young,
I was nine brand.
It wasn't called that. And
if you go to my LinkedIn profile, you probably check out my activity. And then there will be an article. I think of Denise Well done, have it by these good, other business will be pimping good people, and certainly Sorry, some of them were. So I'm going to say, I could disrupt experience brand.
disruptive, conscious service, I mean, innovative value, performance, luxury, style and experience. I can't Yeah, there was not.
So for me, experience was a big one for you guys. And then I think you've got a little bit of a little bit of disrupter in there as well, because you are challenger brand in a way, I think.
How would you identify with those?
I like that. Yeah,
yeah. And the disruptive differently, because I think like where we obviously doing within the space of new media, not really a science. I think this is what we do, but you're not. So bring old and new together, right? And so by bringing both of them together, it's like the people who aren't meant to be behind. The mic. Yeah. So it's like within the Ponte cast context, having Jason PJ who are a breakfast radio show in Melbourne, and having so much fun with them, or Ben Fordham in Sydney. Yes, things. This is where that contrast comes in. Yeah. And so we are, I think that that's where it is. It's barring the old because I guess that a disrupter could sometimes be seen as isolating themselves from what has been mentioned tension. Yeah. And I think what we're trying to do is bring convention in because we understand that they've been doing heaps of things, right. Yes. But then, once we have that convention, disrupt, yeah, disrupt. Yeah. On the show,
with a warning name is Johnny seven around
learning, like, learning mindset, I think, or not even one of the top sort of thinking in terms of defining signing. I think that's a big one. Main terms of you guys and your interest in ongoing learning and that growth mindset, and I mean, you're just sponges. You seem like there's an incredible curiosity all the time. Going back to what you were saying before Josh around, kind of marrying old, old school and new school or tradition with innovation is, is almost creating regularly creating those friction points. And because I think that's where the magic happens, right, when you're kind of like, Oh, well, this is, yeah, this is an interesting perspective. And let's play with that. And this is why it has been, has always generally being done, but we're going to try it this way. And we're going to book some tickets to LA and just go throw ourselves into environment and we'll work it out later,
unconventional structure. So we've had a bunch of people say I liked the difference in the structure of that, whether it's no structural structure structure, I mean, no structure becomes a thing that we do that then becomes the way we structure it.
But the irony being that it is incredibly structured, because it's at seven day format, and you're showing up, like there's the structure, the silence strategy
that we always talk about, which is like we're sort of, and that's why like, I'm actually, I think, really good with feedback from people around understanding where we see when people provide feedback. Like, say, for instance, you know, going to family Christmas or whatever, and my Auntie's like if you know, someone so doesn't listen, because you swear, and Michael, inside they like it. So their answer is don't swear. Yeah. And my answer is, it's like it's not for them. Yeah. And so And the thing is, you could easily say, you could definitely say, all right, Tommy and Josh, if you don't swear, you could gain 20% more people. Listening, right. But I think that within the space within the disruption, I think we are being true versions of ourselves. And so maybe we'll swear less, maybe as individuals will grow. Maybe by the time we're in our late 30s, or whatever things
that set breadth rather than, well depth rather than bread, like a, it's a building a more sustainable, deep, rich, strong brand, because it's us.
And it's like, that's why we can have ash Williams on the show. And then we could have a serious executive. Yeah,
you could do a million other things to get more likes. It's, it's like that.
Any brand wanting the the here and now. quick wins, as opposed to it. Well, yeah, we could do that. But doesn't mean that that's true to our brand, and that's not gonna be sustainable. And that's not going to build a community that's going to stay with us for the next five to 10 years. That's not gonna differentiate ourselves. So one trip overseas per year. Is that the commitment? Oh, I'd like more.
To be honest, I think probably too often every six months. But I mean, it depends. So what we discovered, so part of our learnings was the daily talk show is a base. And it can take huge amounts of time, even though we feel that we can show up and do it, there is the residual thing where it's like say, say with this one, we're pre recording it because, you know, we're going to take a small period of time between sort of Chrissy and you know, the sixth or whatever. So we're doing you know, three in a day, you know, today or there might be just the explaining to people or communicating what we do can be difficult. So
good. So, so the deck you guys prepared before you went to LA? Yeah, did you find that quite a challenge in terms of because that can be one of the most powerful ways to forced you to define and capture your brand. and the value of your brand. Yeah. So tell me about that process. Well, I think,
if you say specifically to what Belinda is talking about is a deck or proposal for sponsorship of the show while we're waiting. So I take if you take it one step back and look at the process of creating a deck, or creating anything that communicates lies, yeah, formalise the communication, it's like, the biggest thing is just doing something. Yes. Like having a day or doing the process once doesn't even matter what it is. Because what I think the learning is, it just it starts solidifying thinking and testing assumptions and working out what you think it is and what other people think it is. So
you have to articulate it, but yeah, you literally have to capture it. It forces that discipline of sort of saying, Okay, well, why should anyone else care? What What do we have that is valuable, and how can we Can we target people? Who do we want to target?
And I think
you it was interesting writing through it because I think there was some magic missing. That is hard to capture. Unless you actually do a real is it can take time and quite often you can you have to do a full deep dive in terms of, you know, what is our special sauce and what makes us our brand different? And even talking about those regular friction points and what do we say before around the whole being okay with ambiguity and, you know, one day we might have, you know, Seth Godin, next day we have blendable. We're okay with all ends of the spectrum. But I think that is your magic, you know, and not being afraid to say, this is who we are. And we don't have all the answers just yet, but we're like this kind of wild Work in progress. And that's what makes us awesome. Hard to put in
a deck. I reckon like one of the things that part of it is actually dick. Yeah, well, I do think that also its brand, right.
So, like freaking video yeah.
And so I think for us where it's at like because we like, say we do our sort of pump up sort of pre 500, the video that does quite well in regards to people enjoy it. I think that one of the nuances is 2019 was messy for us based on contrasting goals or objectives. And so not being able to align the thing that you're spending most of your time on with financial outcomes. And so you're running a business over here that's doing one thing. Yeah. But you are putting huge amounts of brand equity into this thing. And so part of it, I think, is that what we were seeking within that document was tidy, right? We wanted to clear it Easy. And so that could communicate to people who don't necessarily know us, but they can see it and understand it. Yeah. I think what we learnt through that process is, I mean, if we're, if we're asking our guests to apply an ambiguity, we need to be okay with ambiguity going forward. So it's not going to go and be tidy. So I think that's the first thing. I guess one of the values we're looking at is, if you can even call it, I guess, outlook is diversification of revenue. So looking at so for instance, with that document that was really based on the biggest problem with that document was, we worked out how much money we need to make, and then we reverse engineered it into a document which we've never done business like that before. It's always about like, what's the problem that the client has happened? How can we solve it? We know that in the future, in five years time, what the daily talk show has in regards to community and all those, you know, Media products will have the impact that we actually can give the proper amount of value.
Yeah. So what are the proof points that you need to build up to get there?
I think that well, the proof points are in the live performance marketing. So it's like it's the basic the basic thing of and this is what our friends shameless, do really well. It's like advertising our show. It costs X amount, and you'll get x return. He's a case study. Do I don't think that we're in a position yet to do that in a big way. And so what we're talking about is, when we were looking at Initially, it was like, okay, charging 1000 bucks an episode, right? Based on this is how much it costs to keep the lights on and do all that sort of stuff. The reality is that when you look at CPM, if you actually look at it and just very transactional, it's like, okay, we could, we could sell it for 120 bucks something an episode.
It's really interesting around
In terms of, say 2020, trends, Instagram,
as we've seen, a lot of micro influences are having. I'm just my brains just spinning. These micro influences are having greater, I guess return value for brands then site, the macro influences and the huge one. So in a similar vein, it's like, well, how can we potentially work with micro advertisers? Yeah. And in order to literally build up have proof points to say, Okay, well, let's just let's just get this get or get it run on the board. And then so we have a case study in 12 months time to say, we work with a sponsor that gave us 10 bucks. Yeah. And that's all I could afford. Now there. You know, so you could literally just use it as an experiment to build a case study and build a narrative to support your case and it doesn't have to be huge dollar. It's about Yeah, okay. We played in these micro advertising space because we wanted to see where it went. And where we could take a brand and what kind of stories we could tell for them and they could, right
when you don't understand how to do it, you it's a natural thing to look to how other people are doing it. But then that isn't necessarily Yeah, so then you have to then be up for getting stuff wrong. Yeah. If you try someone else's approach or an approach that is consistent to the landscape, yeah, advertising CPM cost cost per thousand listeners is X amount of dollars. It does. Yeah, you got to be okay with Yeah, not having the answer or having a cracking it like being totally right.
And I think that's, that's a core takeaway for you guys to say, this is our approach and we've got to find advertisers, potential commercial partners, that culturally and fit that model. Yeah, that are really okay with ambiguity that are willing to give this model ago. And that kind of getting the rumble with us. It's gonna be messy and let's just give it a
crack. It's also like, I think we've taken an all or nothing approach previously. And so there is the in between. And so for instance, like say if you average we need to make 30 grand a month just to sort of pay our salaries, do all that sort of thing, not paying ourselves ridiculous amounts paying for the lace expenses, all that sort of thing. Traditionally, what we've done is we've said, Okay, let's, we might get two or three video jobs, which pays for that per month. And so then that the extension was okay. We were missing opportunities based on spending so much energy on that, that we haven't been able to give the daily talk show red hot crack and making it financially Yeah,
they could be even otherwise, that you just saw to shake up the model. So you know, in terms of brand measurables that's why of calling him or things that you want to own you. You've built up this idea around fat Fridays, right? So it's like, Well, okay, well, how come Maybe we want to sell a fat Friday a month. Yeah. And let's actually make that a thing. Yeah. And how do we then what does that mean to sell a fat Friday? We're gonna sell out? Well, doesn't need to feel like you're selling. Yeah, it's just another way of commercialising the brand. So one one Friday a month, what may might be every Friday, whoever wants to pay for it? Yeah. Let's build an experience. And let's let's talk about it in a way that's kind of true and authentic and a little bit while a little bit of ground key. Then who are the kinds of people that we might chase down to this whole idea of like a paid fat fall day or maybe we take it to the straight so we do this or that or the other? So I think thinking outside the box can be whatever you want it to be.
What do you think, TJ in regards to the fact because I that's something I think you've spoken a lot about before. what's the what's the To get it for us to get it done, do you think or to try those types of things?
I mean, the commercial viability of thing if it being called fat is feedback I've received from people not specifically the brand itself but other people. Not
like I feel like potential I think part of it to be cold
cool Friday. Yeah, I don't think so essentially like rejection or what now?
Of course. Right. And so you take that on and the guy is that correct one? I think so. I think anyone who has specific feedback about what's right or wrong, isn't necessarily right or wrong, their perspective on something. So
is that the stopper though? Do you think that not at all, but it's just a
thought and so yeah, I mean, I've thought it's definitely a winner in that respect.
And so if we would giving advice to people because we say like, because that's a perfect example where there's a bunch of things That like knowing isn't doing. And I guess that's like most people's frustrations in life is like, we know we should be doing this or doing that personality part. Yeah. But we're but we're not doing it. And that's a great example. For us. How do we what are the actions? Or what are the steps? Or how do you how do you reconcile that idea? We are doing it. So then we become sort of immune to the first know that we get because I think that we've given a lot of things ago, but it's normally we the first hurdle or the first point of friction, we then think that maybe it's maybe it's maybe this is the market telling us we don't have the right Yang, which is funny because we don't do that without content with the show. We're very clear on this is the value we bring.
How do you do both have a shared kind of appetite for risk? Are you quite different on that phone?
Shed appetite for risk minutes. I think they're different. Yeah, just very much in the way we assess what even a risk is. And so yeah, I mean, we've both taken big risks to do this. And whether one feels more anxious about that specific risk or not, I don't know. It's just been, it is what it is. Because we do it, we're on the same path. So it's, you could say that, but you both then deal with the risk in your own way, whether it is registering or not,
my returns of those decisions around I'm not sure if this is working, do we? Do we say the course or do we opt out now
my I feel like the biggest risks is normally things that we're not doing versus things that we do. Okay. So I think that that's where I always emplaced so it's very rare, even like the amount of people that would say I have we thought about not doing weekend and just doing five days again, and I'm pretty clear on why we're doing It what the vision is in regards to the touch points. Yeah, that's where things like, where things do stretches, like we're testing it and saying, Okay, well, like if, if we're asking on Instagram, and there's only 10% of people who listen every single episode, and the main majority put sort of at the slide, or of that sort of five to six episodes. What is it? What's the audience telling us? What do they need? What do they want? How do we serve them? And so from a risk point of view, that's what I think about is like, okay, the risk of not doing a wrap up show, or the risk of not doing this or doing that, but the I think that's because it's cemented on that idea of Parkinson's Law that you feel the time that you have allocated to it. And so, for most of like, I think Mr. 97 is a great example of this. He's been able to think about like six months ago, your thoughts around social media and what you could do versus Like, you know, we would go days where we wouldn't post and now 97 is doing, you know, six posts a day and being consistent and keeping that all up. So I believe that if you get the right processes in place, you can make it happen. It's
a lesson in showing up and you've just got a an socials really like that, I think, you know, on most platforms is just the more you put out there, the more you're going to get back. Yeah. interesting trends around Instagram for 2020 is this shift towards longer captions. And so a lot more people, I think will we're going to say is shifting away from the whole picture first content. Second thing I've already noticed, I don't know if you guys have a lot, the length of posts are getting a lot longer and a little bit more considered. So I think that will actually separate a lot of the wheat from the chaff in terms of Who has especially for influences who aren't might even create another layer of of work there for copywriters, and content developers, but who can really produce creative, conceited content that is more than just a beautiful photo? And how you're going to tell your brand story and how you're going to have that consistency in messaging and so forth. And I think that that'll be really interesting.
The words are powerful to like our most best performing posts. Text.
Yeah, people are reading that. Yeah, absolutely.
And so I think that you can get a message quickly, you know, you can communicate something very quickly. Yeah. But also to the point of the caption, being able to say, Okay, here's the photo and then giving it the context. That's like, if we're in this world of sort of people enjoying the in-joke can imagine this what we're doing then being able to compare and contrast those two things. And maybe being a bit ironic or a little bit sort of playing into the former.
I think that's it. Um,
it's, you know, hats off to you guys. I think people really want to be part of this thing that you're building. So they want to know the backstory. And I think that if you're going to test, you know how much they want in you could really go deep with that. And I think that's, that's one of the greatest strengths of the brand that you're building is this kind of the community side of things, and it is one that is quite deep and rich and people really want in. So the more and more you give them in terms of the juice and the narrative, and I think they will just keep eating it up.
Yeah. Can you look up the definition of a cult because that's Sandy.
And I'm like, Is
gronk Hi. Seth Godin coming.
Yes, yeah, it's very exciting to try and get him on the show.
It would be great match in the middle here.
Well would be a highlight.
So, I do work with Karen Beatty, who heads up a great
debate Brant Simon Sinek as
they certainly Yeah,
yeah. Pretty amazing. So the growth faculty, let's try to pull it off. Yeah, be great. So what's the what is the growth faculty because I've seen them pop up. Success resources.
They are any vents and content platform so they rent produces and they bring out the best thought leaders in the world to Australia but also New Zealand, they've just launched in Singapore so they had the Obama's both your
you know, the business model, business model,
its subscription. Okay, and it's largely b2b so they've got a lot of corporates that subscribe to their content, there be exclusive content that come through. And they also have things like, so if you're a member, you'll get new books delivered. So it's a lot of it.
Yeah, education, high learning. Is it a loss leader, the all these guests, do you think like is a loss leader like a? Like they're not making any cash from it, but it's a brand builder. Like I wonder about the event?
From a profitability? Yeah, I'm the model for profitability.
I think you're always going to eat some. I'm not going to speak I don't
know. Because I always want it because my authority is okay, if you spend $800,000
like producing events, he's freaking expensive,
but the thing is, I guess if it's like, brand, spend a lot of money on marketing. And so if that's the marketing exercise, that's what I think is interesting is it's like what is the business behind? Because you think about even you had the big companies are worthy
of their business honestly.
Price good hype. Good eyeballs.
Yeah, I mean, they, they, they brought out phenomenal people to Australia, Hillary Clinton, Bernie Brown. Obviously, Simon Sinek
I think Seth Godin last time he was he was six years ago.
Yeah. And for business chicks I think he was he was that guy. Yeah. I think that was like, but yeah, I'm pretty sure I remember. Yeah. Yeah, he had like a big lapel mic. I just remember saying that on
songs. Don't get him on the show.
really disappointed a fan just rock out.
When Mr. 97 in my
baby. Yeah, he's in my
you can do it once. You can do it again, Josh. What?
How long will it been since you spoke to him
on 90 was the last day Besides, we had so hot Yeah. Three, yeah, over a year ago.
So time that would be began the six hundreds in May. So
you're in a bit
near and a half. Wow, that would that would be good. So the back on the brand stuff. What is your your focus of 2020 if you were to describe what you do, and who you are and what you will, I guess, when we define a brand, except says it's like, you know what people say when you're not in the room. And I guess that's a reflection of your actions and the things that you do every day. What do you think? What do you want to
know one of the biggest takeaways that I have had, I've just finished reading actually, Michelle Obama's book becoming me either of you guys know I would highly recommend it. It's brilliant read. And I've not dagi my copy because there's there's lots of great quotes in there, but one of them was
If you and this was, you know, in the scheme of
her learnings through campaign trails and so forth, and it was the insight around if you don't take hold of your brand and your identity, then basically, the public, the voting public was going to create an identity for you like they're going to fill that void. And they are going to create one that is more often than not a negative one in that sense. But I think the insight there and a personal brand and I think a lot of people looking at my 2020 I think it's going to involve a lot more work around personal branding and executive coaching around that personal branding piece and a lot more people that want to take control and form a strategy for themselves whether it be on LinkedIn or online. offline is that if you're not taking control and ownership of your profile and your brand, then the world is going to create one.
Because it already exists. Yeah. So if people aren't willing to, because you can think I look like, yeah, it doesn't matter, I'll just work. I'll just do the work. Then
your brand is there, like whether you like it or not. So you might as well toast all of
it. I find it interesting with doing something like the daily talk show. What do you think it does to Tommy and my personal brand?
I've often thought about that.
What do you think? What are we thinking? What do you what do you get from us?
Well, no, I think the question is, what do you want to be known for? And what do you want to be known as? Is it? Is it the big media company? Is it the daily talk show? Is it a producer that works across both of those things? Is it something bigger Um, and that the daily talk show is just the thing that you're delivering now.
I mean, I think I used to think about that stuff myself more as a as an individual solo operator. And then you kind of have to try and put in the, it requires the effort to sort of like always push that to the side and focus on this new collective thing. Bringing your own spin or your what you can just bring what he can do it my Mr. Nye saves coming in later. And then you see how when you don't work on the personal brand of yourself within the Joe, it can get lost a bit, because you've now focused on focusing on this collective See, but you can't disregard the energy it takes to form some new thing. Yep, collectively.
you'd be surprised there because I work with a lot of executives who are in a similar situation. whereby they have lots of chapters in their lives. But they may be at a point where they've spent say, the last 1015 years on what feels like to be, say, a hamster wheel just doing this thing that they're doing maybe building a business or working their way up corporate ladder or what have you, and they've sort of
boss that time or that disciplined about self reflection and working out. Okay, where do I actually fish in this? What's my role? There just been on delivery. So a lot of what I do is actually unpacking the common thread and their personal narrative and going back to the Okay, so what are all the things in your Korea that like, what is the red thread behind it? And even though you may have had different chapters that you may have in a personal trainer, you might be a host of The Daily daily talk show you might be a producer for the big media company, like what is the actual thing that ties the altogether. And that that is the Tommy jacket basically doesn't matter what your thing is that you're delivering right here right now. That's just today's kind of the current manifestation of what your, your sort of higher purpose or your brand is.
Is it counterintuitive or like I guess, say for instance, you talk about big media company or the daily talk show. I almost feel from a personal brand perspective, maybe slightly detached from those things. So like, obviously, like the daily talk show, yes, because it's that external thing. But when I think about personal brand, I sort of going to Tommy is the guy that or Josh is the guy that rather than a bit, maybe I'm giving it too much in new ones versus what the general public say. So we're with ourselves every day as individuals, and so we can create this new wants to Whereas it's always funny when you see someone and they like what they pick out, like on the daily chart like, you do this or you do that.
I was just thinking it, it all comes back to someone reflecting on the doing aspect of your past or present. So you're the guy that is always buddy talking podcasting. You know, it's like, it's because we do that. Yeah. And so I when I think about past it's, and maybe things that are missing. It's the doing that I was doing back then the decent D in the now. So what aren't you doing? I know, I'm just reflecting on it. But I'm just like, if someone says, oh, you're the guy that they're actually speaking to the something that you do. Yeah. And so if the person on the hamster wheel for 15 years is actually just, they're actually been doing a whole bunch of stuff that might not necessarily connect to the thing that they've wanted to do want to be seen as want to be known as,
maybe it's the one dimensional doing that can also be the issue. So for instance, like the daily talk show Even though there's new ones within the show, it is one dimensional whatever. So for me like saying yes to doing emceeing of a charity gig or things like that is my way of being more than a podcast or or that sort of thing and more facilitate. Oh,
exactly. So for example, and your thing might be more around sharing stories and building experiences between people building community between people, and you do that through the videos that you produce you. And you do that through the daily talk show. You do that through him saying it's kind of galvanising, human stories and experiences into things that are shareable and enjoyable and and challenging and, you know,
so it's almost there. How do you get to that so that there is sort of like a second thought to the first thought of we were logos or whatever, like the daily talk show, big media company, Josh works on those sorts of things. What do you need to do? Do you think to become that? So how do you go from being the brand person? So if you work within an organisation say you're the, you know, CEO of a company, Firefox, yeah, Firefox, and you go from being the CEO of Firefox to the the person who isn't the cutting edge of web security and privacy, but also is building like a platform that's open source, right? Like I wonder how do you get how do you bring the public into the nuance of your personal brand?
I think that comes down to not being afraid
to share your whole self
no matter what you're doing, so yes, right now you're doing the daily talk show. Oh, yeah. Using that's one of your most public touch points, so to speak, but You also have a million other things going on in your lives. Quite often, people feel like the only thing that I can share publicly, is what you're doing on a daily home show because I'm that guy. Well, that's not necessarily true. Like, think about what are the biggest things that you're doing? You know, what are you doing on the weekend to satiate your curiosity for x? Boy, you're also really nerdy around technology and
is the podcast. I mean, because podcast is another base where it's almost like, so it's like the CEO example. The podcast, the podcast is to personal brands. Yeah. Having friction and then bringing other person like talking in a very sort of like, Brandy sort of, yeah, transactional level potentially. But you've got Tommy's personal brand. Yeah. Josh is personal. Yeah. And, and so and then you've got Belinda's personal brand and so when Belinda comes in She is going to bring her perspective. Yeah. And experience experiences. And then it's our job to interact with that. And so potentially when it's just us as individuals, if we if something if we're talking about something if we're talking about cheese subscriptions, right, monthly subscription so the phases Do you get chases to get to a point where you know what I'm what I would be thinking in this moment and what Tommy's thinking like, I guess that's personal brand in some ways, which is like, throw something at like so when a guest if we have a guest that comes in here, the guest say something, I guess we want to get to a point where they will so we'll think Tommy's gonna ask this right now and then it happens.
I think that comes down to your character and your reputation for sight, you know, we were reflecting before about ash Williams episode. And I said, you just didn't let him go. Josh, he just kept challenging him with that question. And you were quite good in your approach. And that that is something people would remember you for in terms of your character.
Yeah. You can't help but do anything else. Yeah, that's real bread. That's it.
That's your strong. That's your thing. Yeah.
You know, so that's like, shtick in some way. So, how do we work out like, how do we, because that's almost like heightened versions potentially. Which comes out through a show. I mean, this is very nuanced versus a fun
No. So it's, it's similar to.
Again, it's something I always challenge people with is when they're thinking about their own brands is It matters not just what you are doing, but how you are doing it, and why you are doing it. So tell me about your character, like give me a taste and an insight into
your character. So then intentional ality within what we say like, I find that interesting. So you're using the ash Williams example. What intention Did you think that I was bringing to that? Like, what was I? What was the personality or value set that I was bringing to that conversation? Do you think?
I think you Well, I don't know. But you were genuinely curious to know the answer. And so you have a, you have a dogmatic approach to,
to really unlocking
the story behind your guests experiences. So that speaks to your character, and your incessant curiosity. Whereas
Tommy's a bit more sit back, have a giggle and watch this all play out. Yeah.
But I had a moment in that where I was like, Josh understands that ash possesses the answer. So he wants him to deliver it. I know you've got this in you, she's over here got a knife, okay. And then I think, if you're, if you're in a risk, not respect, but empathise with how he feels in that moment, so you're up against not that you're not being empathetic for him not wanting to fucking go there or answer it, he doesn't have it, he's like, can be bothered, then you're also going you're better than this buddy. And so then those two things are clashing
within you or do you ever think from the listeners perspective, like consciously as in like, they're gonna want to know, I might. I think I'm also
projecting back our guests approach potentially. So I know Ash is unapologetically him, he says outrageous thing. Yes. And so I think it would have been a disservice to me not to not do the same back. So we're gonna give a platform to someone where it's like, we're going to get into the nitty gritty He's going to ask 97 if you had sex
to challenge this story,
but I guess that's based on values if we had someone for the very first time, who is, you know, very sort of that isn't one of the brand values or whatever, potentially, I wouldn't go there. So it's interesting. Like I think that I think
you are very inquisitive. Like,
so I guess I part of it like using ashes example. There's definitely part of him, which is, so he's talking I'm what I enjoy is paradox or contradiction. Yeah.
Yeah. friction. Friction points.
Yeah. And so as a guy who is currently on a podcast network, yeah. Who was saying that in 2020, he's going to own all of these content. And so the big question is, does that mean you're leaving the network? Which you think the answer is? The answer is yes. Yeah. But inside the funny thing is, if the listener is That if they're like if they geeking out and being like, wonder what that means for that thing. It gives the opportunity potentially of having some fun in it because there's he's never gonna she's never going to say anything that he doesn't want to say. He didn't share that episode so obviously we can all take
now I'm texting. Nice
Yeah, but have you ever thought about doing a podcast? Or do you think that you would ever do a podcast is that within your scope of interest going on right now? I seem like you're at home.
Yeah, I love a good chat. I love a good chat. Yeah. In fact I am. I took my sister's away we went away last weekend to Dale's and and which was super lovely. But one of my one of my favourite things in the world when you sit down and I think one of one of my sisters is more deep talking about deep thinker and a talk please chat around Who's that who's a COLA and he's a texter and all that sort of stuff and quality banter,
great banter. But I'm one of those people that would love to sit down and have a coffee and just talk about the world. Yeah, definitely. I love the conversation. Will I ever produce mine podcast? I'm not gonna say no
come on here regular chat
Yeah, I can live chats with the girl
what's your your go to form of creation or putting something out into the world a medium like
I love writing love copywriting.
I do like Instagram for that. I feel like it it.
It challenges me
but like challenging myself with it to go How How can I
share something that I've learnt in a way that is different. And how can I marry a great image with an insight. I like the creativity of that. And I love I mean by nature of branding, I love and copywriting I love translating insights from a really juicy workshop into a narrative, a brand narrative that really are set of values that really sticks and has teeth for an organisation coming up with a brand new our TVs, our brand manifesto is,
is really quite
it's challenging, but it's also really creatively rewarding, especially when the clients like oh my god, wow, you know, like that, really. We've never been able to articulate that before. Now it makes us feel really valuable and special because that is us and we're not afraid to
are in that now. So I do love doing that.
Yeah, I just wanted to say thank you from our end because behind the scenes you've been very supportive in like do some of the best guests we've had on this year has been thanks to you connecting the dots.
Loving very, very generous I hope 2020 is not about giving less because you give us a lot if you can yet you're giving someone else
thanks for the air for the gold plated
stroke. It was it was just it was a raffle. So I'd love to take credit for that.
Let's just hope I don't come on next year with a chip.
That would actually be a fun this is definitely some the daily talk show height the daily talk show.com is the email address tomorrow. is New Year's Eve and we've got Dr. Jason Fox who's going to be talking all about choosing one word for the year instead of gronk it up Yeah, doing a goal, just a single word mazing and potentially he might be dressed as a wizard. So stay tuned for that. Say guys say guys, bye