#101 – Dr Jason Fox | complex AF/

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Cross face

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conversation sometimes worth recording with Josh Johnson and Tommy Jenkins, Episode 101 everyone, the daily talk show. I'm john, do we have to intro ourselves? We paid some guidance. I am names for his name's Bob, by the way

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to Bob from New York, New York City. We should say the the name of our guest today, Dr. Jason Fox. Hello? Hey, good day. That's such a Jason. Dr. Jason Fox thing. I would how, how often do you have the doctor in front? Like, when is it it started? It started because all the URLs for Jason fox.com we've taken. But Dr. Jason folks is available. And it was soon before like, have completed my PhD. So I was like, Oh, yeah, I can claim that.

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I mean, I could put Dr. TV it totally have to do the. Yeah. So you've done the hard work. What? You've got a it's a Doctorate of philosophy, but specifically I research motivation and behavior change. Did I make up the other day? I was throwing out out the other day. I was like, Yeah, I think Jason for Dr. Jason fox is an organization called us. Yeah, you do, Jason is that I made that up

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on. Look, this is this is all part of the game. These are all just funny titles and masks that we wear and stuff so I can be whatever gets me past the gatekeepers and into where I need to be. So organizational psychology, motivation, designed behavioral scientist, whatever mask I need to wear to kind of get me to the, to the right like a TED talk. Like the quintessential TED Talk title.

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Oh,

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yes. So what in this era was when I think about TED talks? I think about like, or literally, those names are the ones that I tend to watch the most. It's a behavioral style. Yeah, yeah, you've got to use the words. neuro is a popular one to as a suffix neuro, whatever the science of people love that science of. And even though it's really actually the science of light is, it's more scientism this kind of obsessive love and ideological coveting of sciences, this kind of thing to worship as opposed to looking at the real science it's often quite quite boring and quite slow and mundane. I was watching some videos because you and Josh have worked together yet

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Oh, what

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have you on YouTube? I wish your TED Talk Ah,

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I loved it. Oh that's great. But this is this is a real anxious why I'm working with Josh at the moment so Josh and I are doing some filming at the moment Farhat people see this like videos of me from six years ago and that forms their opinion of me his current day I thought

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you Natalie then you really drawing hey,

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yeah. So you think drawing a while the whiteboard ones about nine years old. But

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it sort of what stuck out to me was the staffer and motivation you sort of, I guess, view and thoughts around motivation I wrote down here. You said most of us try to motivate others from the inside out this and so it can you explore that show. Really, it's

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so funny. There's also something really funny. I feel like having worked with Jason a bunch. It's the equivalent of Jason going back to your third. Break it ship it in. Yeah. And being like, Matt, you said this thing and ship. So

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I'm curious. I'm curious

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as well. Yeah. How much that like talking to that point, you're thinking then, and whether it's actually it's actually I mean, there's a there's a high level conversation. It's quite fascinating here around the, the kind of fracturing of people's identity nowadays, the fact that we're so hyper connected, and we have all sorts of digital avatars and representations of ourselves and different platforms and things like that. So yeah, there's a, there's a, there's a sense of who I am on YouTube, as well as Twitter, as well as Instagram and Facebook and LinkedIn, I'm hopeless across all of them. Which is why people was why I'm haunted by I pass these fossils of my past keep resurfacing. But

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in fairness, that was like 2013, the video I'm talking about. Yeah, right. And a lot of it was really relevant. Thank you. In my world right now.

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Thanks. And I tried to I tried to be relevant. That's it. So here's the thing with motivation. There's so much fluff, folklore, fist pumping, rah rah, and all sorts of you love Tony Robbins, I think he's maturing, I think he's getting better. I think he's getting a level of sophistication. But he's also an example of someone who is incredibly overworked. And one of the risks that happens in this industry is people start to optimize too much. You know, you build a program, it kind of works, you can sell stuff, it starts to develop reputation. And so you just end up iterating the same thing, instead of actually taking a step back and asked me actually, is this still relevant and true? Is this still useful? Is this still actually the most apt expression? It could be? So you find a bit of success in going sheet? Let's do a bit more of this. Yes.

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Add to that. And

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yeah, and then it can potentially get you so insular that you are you don't even question is this moving us closer to future relevance, like is this actually motivation that so many outdated phone calls, but it's comforting to folks like to be told that you can achieve anything, you just need to believe you just need to have the right attitude, an attitude of gratitude checkup from the neck up and all that stuff. It kind of goes against what we know from science and what we know from actually just getting people a little bit more curious, a little bit more critical thinking a little bit more experimental, instead of seeking these one size fits all universal truths. And so that's the perspective I try to bring it. Is

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it about creating a mind shift? And is that what they're trying to do? And is there Do you think there's better ways of doing that?

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But I think I mean, all the way is a potentially good but there are some less than helpful approaches. I think that what the motivational speaking industry has done historically is kind of first sell you the idea that there's something wrong or something that you're missing or something that's broken inside you then kind of present this kind of mystical solution the secrets the hidden operating system upgrade that you absolutely you know, you need a bought that day today. Totally Well, yeah, first you buy the DVD, then you go to the invasion thing, and then you go to a deeper thing, then you go to some off site, and then you're talking about franchise options, so on I just like it because, you know, like, we have a boost juice.

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Um, but so, so, I mean, I just think that I think that the world covets these they they kind of they look at these like folks on the pedestal and think, oh, wow, I've got it all figured out. When most of us are just making it up as we go. We're all kind of trying to do the best that we can. And, you know, there aren't any perfect solutions. But there's, there's an approach that we can start to integrate that, you know, involves mindset shifts, and so forth, which is complex AF. And then then a title of how

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complex is

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Yeah, because then you start getting into notions of boundaries of self and like where are, you know, all that stuff. And then there's also a systemic things like, you look at a lot of online things. So how I got into this as I was doing my PhD research in motivation, science, I was lecturing at different universities, I saw high school kids getting taught to buy motivational speakers and told it, you know, you need to know exactly where you want to be in 10 years time, what car you drive, what job you'll have. And it struck me is less than helpful for these kids that are already under heaps of pressure. And at the same time, I was playing World of Warcraft, which is a multiplayer online role playing game, which has incredibly sophisticated psychological design. And so what happens if we combine what works there with the real world? And can we take a different approach to motivation? That was my first book ages ago? And then, so on. And so and now I'm off doing all sorts of other things. So your current book, How to Lady quest? Yeah, man, you you pretty close to a close to releasing new book, or what's the Oh, right. So how they request came out a little while ago, like a year and a bit ago, I'm in the process of writing a book at the moment.

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But this time, I'm kind of being cagey as to when I involve third parties and publishers is this kind of like a crunch that comes on once once, you know, you got contract sign and so forth. And I'm trying to just let this thing emerged. So I'm procrastinating on is that is that a creative decision? Because you think you get the best la Yes, it's the third album, that's the weird one. It's the it's the, it's the thing that I can now afford to be a little bit foolish in my world, because I've got enough, you know, momentum and reputation list and so forth. That that if it if it really sucks up, then I'll be okay. Well, we'll survive. This is when it comes to books. Uh, you have the School of like, you know, there's a lot of

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people in the motivational game where it's like, okay, you by us was that utopianism. So, so real? It's always the laptop, isn't it? I know, if you didn't hear Tommy's laptop just buzzed. The there seems to be like a world where it's like, okay, you bought you create a book, and then that book is going to be what you use to speak up, and then you're going to have it like on the table in the back?

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Is that actually where you started the journey of writing? Yeah,

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kind of. So I mean, I had a, I mean, I had a little self published book, how to enjoy exams back when I was helping students and so forth. And then I wrote a little kind of give away a book and so forth. That's more of a better version of business card. And then and then the game changer. My first book was super awesome work with Wiley, my publisher that you don't actually make much from the book itself. And the royalties are pretty slim, like $1, 50 or something, something along those lines per $30 book, or maybe it's $2 I don't know nothing really to get terribly excited about but it unlocks opportunity for you it kind of so in that regard, book serve, it's almost like a pin to the market like a little sonar pink, to remind you, Hey, you know, here I am. And I have these perspectives, maybe that could be useful in your mix. And people pick up the book and they read it and think it could work and so forth. And then, you know, work with organizations and the book that I'm writing the moment I'm not sure if I want it to be simply just a I think I kind of want it to be the type that is esoteric and obscure, but in six years time people will be picking up and reading it and thinking it's actually pretty good actually, I'd like to be much more effective than that. But but that's not my primary objective. Yeah,

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yeah. Well, Josh and I talk a lot about goals and yeah, and I guess motivational these themes in our everyday life and I think about myself as far as goal setting I don't really set goals I became obsessed with something like this show 100 episodes we didn't have the goal of 100 we had the goal of Get Started yeah and actually enjoy what we're doing yeah I feel like that pie has paid off for us I might not serving myself well by man that's

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so so good and reflects what you guys were talking about with Amish yesterday with the sense of trajectory this line it's more about direction rather than destination it's this is wonderful thing Have you ever seen to mention this valedictory speech they kind of did this thing and I've seen

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a lot of value very spacious I probably I don't

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know the nurturing up there in that gown I've seen something like

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that is this is reminding folks It doesn't matter if you don't know exactly what you want to do in your life what you know what your dream is and so forth just be kind of micro ambitious and I think there's a sense of micro ambitious yeah it's I mean fancy words for like if you got a hunch is feels right and stuff pursue that but then do these chickens is this kind of moving closer and I I think having a fuzzy goals, okay, that allows you kind of room to meander and stumble and explore 10 gentle pathways what, what doesn't work so well as the old industrial kind of having a really ultra specific, you know, SMART goal and which measurable, achievable, realistic, time based. That's fine for formulaic work and predictable outcomes, or with predictable outcomes. Or if you're trying to, you know, do something in the Olympic Games, which is really stable environments where you're looking to shave microseconds off your time. And goal setting is fantastic there. But in something complex, like life, or like a project that's unfolding and emerging and, you know, it's okay to keep them fuzzy. Yeah, well, this a creative endeavors I in one of those videos, I was watching. I mean, you might not ever think this anymore, but it was around the eye. So you talking about money and the creative so the driver of money, so the project because you know, cash to be injected in the creativity then has to come in, so that's causing some kind of friction, or do you think they live together? Like, what do you think the best outcome is? Do you think you can put dollars towards it? So is there pressure there, then, you know, are you getting your full creative capabilities out of those? Yeah, yeah, I mean, the simple thing when it comes to money and stuff like that, look, money's an incredible motivator. When you do drop stacks of cash into a thing, it will narrow people's focus. So what you'll often get as people achieve the thing that you're trying to do because of the reward, but if you're have a scenario, say where you you know, you have kids and you want them to kind of do housework and you got one family that's paying their kids pocket money to do the housework and the house where people are doing the housework because they want to contribute to being part of the family when the pocket money disappears in the first example it's very likely that the behavior of cleaning up the house will disappear as well and and so she doesn't clean these

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Dan Ariely talks about it with that that idea that there's the the social contract is is you know, just a financial one and that we can like it's counterintuitive but this idea that I know that when I've had contractors I would pay them really well and then I would sometimes be disappointed and then I would have moments where I didn't pay them as much and I got a better yes oh and then so it's

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still the idea ultimately is just try to remove extrinsic rewards from the equation as early as possible pay PayPal well or whatever but don't have it be the thing like it's a hygiene factor if people feel that cool my face debate maps you know I'm feeling comfortable here it's out of the equation we can then look at the inherent motivation to do something really great and wonderful

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was social contracts it's almost what we spoke about with Hamish yesterday he was talking about he's contract with the radio station to then do what he needs to do but then people on their own social media accounts have a social contract with their followers to be coming in with that post at 7am tomorrow morning

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yeah just off and so that pressure is pretty high for people what's your experience with dealing with that space I counted out to all those social media really poorly like I I have there they're focusing my profession and so forth that seem to believe that simply posting a photo of themselves with their own quote next to it and a link to their website is the strategy and the frustrating thing is that it seems to work you then have that Josh introduced me to this new term a couple of weeks ago a circle jerk

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yeah which which which which Jason has the best I said that you and I had sort of a circle jerk moment and he said so like a line jerk

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a single line a single line is a spectrum I think

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three for Circle Triangle Triangle is right when does

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it actually kind of circle jack that's a

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that's a good takes a whole industry to

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totally cuz you look closely at circles that's all just different angles right and then we're getting into pie like

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who is like as in three point line for instance I just had this vision

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Jackie in a circle right now

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well this is where

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it goes I mean what a what a symbol of pace that would be all around the world all around the world how long would that take it because then it would

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it would need to get land yeah what's a lot of good thing I think so yeah so yeah if the North Korea if that whole summit happens anything could totally

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Yeah, you talking in front of big groups of people what kind of people are they aren't well mean? I mean, you know, there's a talk shows audience is vast, you've got

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a specific kind of niche and I talked with all sorts of industries and stuff so I'm flying to Brisbane tonight I'm speaking with a bunch of principles tomorrow I was working with some hospital folk before working with lawyers software developers banks all sorts it so the industry I'm agnostic to whatever professional but the general audience that I tend to work well with is skeptical audiences that feel like they seen it all before and I seem to be the refreshing counterpoint to those folks who can't stand the extroverted fist pumping rara motivational speakers. And that kind of happens because I meet them with a high degree of skepticism and, you know, help them to think a little bit more critically about motivation, behavior, and to kind of view things like culture, innovation, leadership, Authenticity, all those things from a high level of complexity instead of dumbing it down for the masses How do you be a skeptic and remain positive in the world? Wow, I'm glad you asked. It's It's so good It's so because I was like so beta for so many years and actually did quite well out of just picking picking apart other motivational speakers but then then it's like like the motivational troll yeah kind of like you the wizard now and yeah when I was a bit of a pirate and then back then, but that this is thing this is amazing book that I read called the listening society recently, it was written by little and meta modernism is this concept that I'm flirting with obsessively right now, what does it matter, modernism? It's beyond post modernism. So if I just can I indulge in go into as much detail as possible, because Tommy, and I don't know what the facts

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and simplify

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so what so so you said, post modern myth.

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So this is really right, let's bring it back to modernism. This is to serve the meta question here, how do you stay and remain optimistic? Well, skip them as skeptical as well. So modernism, it's much of how societies, worldviews are formed at the moment. And Australia is very modern country, we view science. We venerate science and progress, we're very rational, we believe in the individual and so forth, post modernism is less popular, so we're looking sociologically, now you've got these pockets of folks that say, Yeah, cool. Science, as great as the best thing that we have is nothing better. But it's also pretty flawed. I mean, it just seems to be a bunch of white dudes winning awards for this stuff. And it seemed to perpetuate these existing patterns of thought. It's not really encompassing all voices, there's a lot of minorities that whose perspective aren't necessarily express through the modern meta narratives that we have wings. When was modernism? Like, what is it a time period, like,

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it's also kind of linked to the development of different societies and stuff. So if you will look at some countries haven't quite embraced modernism yet. So it's very pretty modernism. It's like Dubai, what would do by but it's, that's complex, right? Because you have such what, it's all complex everywhere, but you have it, there's going to be pockets and stuff up. But if you look at, you know, countryside of some different countries, it's much more driven by religion, faith and so forth. The science hasn't really kind of encroached upon worldviews as much and this is not to say things are better or wrong, it's just reflective of different stages of development. So unstable societies, like what we got here in Melbourne, you're going to have pockets of post modernism where people realize that, oh, yeah, actually, there's kind of a better way here. And, you know, though, look at motivational speakers and think, well, that's kind of cool. And I'm sure that works for you. But possibly, there's another experiences where your, your, your secret to success doesn't actually apply. And the trouble with post modernism, though, is it's just endless critique. It doesn't seem to offer anything you can kind of ironic and clever and distance whereas the modernist focus so sincere, you know, you look at a lot of my personal experience, I'll say, some North American motivational speakers or public speakers, and they start off so sincere. I remember I was at this, I was doing this thing in Washington. And there was a guy saying, you know, when I first applied to work here, I was rejected. But, you know, what I did is I took that rejection letter, and I got it laminated, and I put it up on my wall. And every single day I looked at that, and, you know, next year I applied, I got rejected again, but I keep looking at that rejection letter eventually, since, you know, it sounds so simplistic Donald Trump

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realm that we're in like, he's a dude who like, looks at his Yeah,

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price

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every single day. Yeah, it's

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totally headlong. We told what's interesting though, is I mean, there's some different theories around there. But Donald Trump's able to play with a very populist notion like appealing to the masses and so forth and i think i think pretty much everyone thinks he's an idiot but some people love to kind of just follow him to see how he's gonna fuck with the system a little bit say what's gonna like because this is an unpredictable nature so that basic motivation of put the thing up on the wall and look at every day is a part of that post post

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post modernism is going to be the person having a an espresso you know with Stevie and so forth reading some penguin

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describing to

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me it's good well it was the post modernism guy we need a photo of Laurens for instance story after

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we've got one of him wearing

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glasses, George

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St. Joe, I

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think that was my rebrand. Maybe I was going from Muslim to

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me, yeah, who, someone that we can put a picture in my mind other than Lawrence of someone who just fits the post modernism bill that's preaching that post modernism. I don't

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know if it's something to be preached so much, because the thing is with postmodernism is that is he kind of realized that nothing's actually true, everything's broken, and everything's a bit of a lie. We only have a whole days fractured, incomplete pieces of reality, and so forth. And so they're not really venturing forth much. But you might see some comedians that are incredibly sharp and on point and so forth. So what they to the right,

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the right lane, is that is that yes? I'm

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sorry? The opposite? No, not at all, either. Actually, more left leaning. Yeah. And because I wonder, the like fake news in some regards, that could be seen as this post modern idea, which is like it's not true, but it's being used in sort of way. Okay, so confusion. Well, we're getting into the space of meta modernism now and right, we naturally musician transcendent, yeah, so you talked about left and right beforehand. Meta, modernism's. Kind of tangential to that the dis the distinction between left and right, and all sorts of distinction start to 10. Gentle, you did like a thing with your hand. Does that mean it sits upon a killer? Yeah, yeah, yes, perpendicular. We went from trans trans. Yeah, this is this is the thing normally when Jason's talking, I take it all in. And by the end, I understand. But I'm trying to put my head on, right? Oh, this guy. Okay, cool. So what I mean is that right angles and so forth. So instead of going on one side of the spectrum, so you can kind of start to relate to all sorts of different worldviews the thing I'm excited about with meta modernism, what it means in terms of how can you be skeptical, smart and intelligent and still have sincere beliefs and have this kind of naivety and optimism. It comes through this kind of reconciliation, or this ascension of paradox. You look at these two different things like irony, and sincerity. And you're both at once you have this ironic distancing where you can make fun of yourself and be aware of like the matter like him, self comment, and so forth. And at the same time, held some Cynthia Cynthia beliefs. It's like saying, like, Look, I didn't believe in love. It's simply a bunch of neurological chemicals that developed as a species as evolved and so forth. But you know, I love my wife and I got a dog and that young

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we title is an oxymoron. Is that is that what an oxymoron? Oh, yeah,

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totally paradox, oxymoron juxtaposition, its hybrid hybridity. It's very romantic, though, is it? Like I think

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about this, there's moments I remember of saying to Bray, where it's like, yeah, I yeah, I feel like in the relationship, it started off with, like, you know, you're the only one for me type of thing. But then there's this, like, sort of these other part, which is like, I want to be with you, I love you so much. But we're both choosing to, but there are like, heaps of it. The reality is, there's like, heaps of people that

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know they're banging on your door,

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do you get what I meant, like, so it is the totally but it's it's both things is this notion of both end rather than either all, it's kind of cool. We both know, this is kind of some setup, we can break it down, we can look at the neurological pathways and so forth. And there's also still the mythology there's still the actual romance, it's like pragmatism and romanticism both combined. So it's almost understanding because I was even talking to him about this the other day, which was like,

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there's a there's a time which you say, like, say, for instance, having kids Yeah, you know, being in a long term relationship, or whatever, where you like, I'm choosing this path, and there's almost an element of being enough dogmatic the right word that's like being sure in Yes, there's lots of options as hates the different solutions. It's like going into business or something like that. It's like saying, you know, what, like, there's 100 different ways of doing it. But I'm actually committing to this, and it's going to mean taking other options at the table. That's right.

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And so this is kind of cool to how does commitment work because in a kind of a, an older way of looking things back, talking back to the industrial kind of motivational speaker kind of modernism thing, it's very much You know, this is it black and white, this is, you know, straight in the straight path. Whereas nowadays, we can actually commit to stuff, but we hold it as a stance, and we commit to it wholeheartedly until we actually realize this isn't serving us so well. And maybe we do to use a terrible word many terrible because it's been overused by consultants, but we kind of pivot we kind of reassess we, you know, and this is, it's much more of a dance, then it's much more of this kind of oscillation between different extremes, that kind of moves us closer to the sense of simultaneity where we can be both things at once. And neither of them are like what you said about the quote you so I've monitored you, Brian falls out. Yeah, and, and, you know, that's where it's like you you're very, you're pushing yourself in one way, you know, it's all about monogamous relationships. And the next minute the person's in open relationships, and is preaching that. And so it's like, at what point is, it's possibly not the next minute, it's but it's possibly like, through conversations or explorations through the complexity of life, helping to shape and influence how we are through for some folks that might be reaching a certain point of maturity and their relationship with I realized that I feel so secure, and stuff like that. And I don't think we don't actually see this as being a threat to what we have. And for others that might not be there's like, what it does is it helps us to go beyond the monolithic You know, this is right, this is wrong, and everything's black and white view and actually start to see the world more complex Lee and appreciate there's all sorts of different perspectives in the mix. And doesn't necessarily mean that right and wrong. They're just different. And that's why goals are hard, I guess, because the goal that you set 10 years ago, you're you've had 10 years of a journey, which is then informed so it makes sense to sort of be open to moving around or sort of, well, it's, and it's interesting when people attach identity to goals. So the, there's this notion of gold Dasa t, which came about because a bunch of folks climbing Mount Everest had this goal to reach the peak by May six, or some sort of specific date, because for the past couple of times, they did it. They reached the peak on exactly may six, and they're there on Mount Everest, and they have this goal to get there. The conditions not look right whatsoever, but they had this goal, they got to be up there. They've said to me, and then they end up dying, you know, yeah, it's like your actual

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name. Yeah,

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just like us for Episode 200.

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No, that's interesting. Yeah, it was that Sandra, Sally.

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Sally listening? Yeah, I could happen by I'm actually I will, I'm speaking at an event with her. Is it tomorrow or next week or something like

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that she's gonna be interviewing. So I will say that, if I can drop it in

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the cells on the day talk to the other day said

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exactly.

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She's, she's, she's interacting on Twitter. She's

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99. Yeah, but you don't want to you want to sort of one on 1146 3104.

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The annoying thing was, he said that if we mentioned it, that he wouldn't be

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like two times 5252 weeks in a year, 52 weeks cards in the deck of cards to people to decks of cards. This is amazing. I see that I'm

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starting to understand why you guys get along. Because you you you both complex thing is and Josh said to me after a conversation he had with you that these basic pitch basically basically said, Tell me tell me Dr. Jason, folks tell me that there's different levels of thinking and, you know, this complex thinking and, you know, I'm kind of up here and you're kind of

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definitely didn't do the up and down though most of on parallel we

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can you explain what that actually looks

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okay. Well, this is this is the one of the things that there's no way of just you sound like a prick with it. And there's no avoiding it. And it's just say where you are on the inside. Well, this is a this is a thing because this is the thing that many folks rail against. because it brings back this notion of hierarchy when it comes to people's ability to operate at levels of high complexity. And abstraction doesn't mean good or bad. No, in fact, you know, you look at someone like me, I'm probably totally confusing to most folks like my ability to make decisions swiftly and to actually do things practically, practically, is is negligible at best when it comes to all sorts of intelligences. Like my sense of balance direction, that kind of the, the social nuances and emotional attunement and all sorts of like skills there's like all sorts of things I'm quite rubbish and complexity is something that I'm lucky in that my research pathway and so forth has kind of several life experiences, so forth has had lent me ability to possibly say things more complex, like this could be a delusion, though, it could be that I'm actually just kidding myself and useful delusion. Like it's not a theory on it. So there's actually a theory I guys, so the theory is that just as you have childhood development, so you've got your 15 month.

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Bodie, Bodie. Okay, cool, you'll see the development of Botha you'll see and he's got learning 30 words. Now, at the moment, roughly 30 words you'll see him

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very nice.

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Okay, thank you work is is quite advanced. And so we grabbing it that and going with it,

31:15
okay, quite easy advance. But there's a notion right are being advanced. And this is actually reflective of empirical research, pioneered by a guy called Michael Commons in the 1980s and you look at childhood development, you can see like, Cool learning words, and then stringing sentences together, and then understanding distantly connected concepts and so forth, you'll see the kind of development and the thing is we don't suddenly just stopped developing once we're in school is this kind of develops not through education, necessarily about through the process of going through life. And then for some folks, thanks to and it's hard to say what factors it might be through their education pathway, it might through the life be life experiences, they might travel widely there might go live with different families and different cultures, they might have some traumatic events, their parents might separate, and they start saying things from two very different perspectives, whatever it is, it contributes this notion of them being able to see the world a little bit more complex, which is where they become perhaps a little less black and white, they see more gray they see more nuance more shades of color and another way to think about is empathy

32:17
empathy is a factor and we're talking much more cognitive here so I think that some folks would have an intuitive empathy like a connection I this isn't territory that's beyond my my savvy and I really love the school of life when the school of life and wonderful website and stuff like that lots of really good emotional intelligence stuff there but it's definitely a factor I think when you can see things more complex Lee you possibly have the ability to relate or at least to suspend what your thoughts of right and wrong so you can see it through another lens and realize okay, real it's not it's not really as complex of that way to think about it is kind of like a whiskey tasting

32:51
now, probably never been to one but we'll do on Josh again.

32:55
I love it. Say I've never I was never taught whiskey. So I think whiskey. This shit. This is like it burns. I don't know what people are talking about how I feel about most alcohol. Like be you could give me a VB or a water sign.

33:10
Yeah, it all tastes But yeah, I

33:12
get it. Yeah. So therefore, at that stage,

33:19
loved it. But I

33:21
wouldn't drink maybe what you'd be able to get to is easy kind of. Especially with whiskey when you pause when you take time when you when you kind of notice in nuances when you do you kind of knows that you kind of sense as a sweetener. Some people like oh, that's sweet. But like, what type of sweetness? Is that? Honey? sweetness. treacle sweetness. toffee sweetness? Is that molasses? Is it Maple? Is it like is it burn caramel? We only way you know that is by having tried all those things is that my friends are that's fine. And yeah, well, I think I think it's partly that. I think that I'm talking about like, We're going old factory here rather than cognitive. But there's a word that you just use old factory like when you smell things smell. And how do you spell it on old factory? How can I wish I did. Um,

34:09
can we just pause that Tommy with his arrogance? He might he sound like

34:12
an old family. He said in a factory new sniff

34:19
happens all the time. And they said the word again. O l FA CT or why all the factory the album factory? Yeah, the hipster factor

34:29
theory is actually happening in olfactory right.

34:31
One of our listeners. That's pretty cool olfactory when smells trigger memories because it bypasses a certain pathway in your brain and so this is why you have particular smelling oh wow where am I where am I where am I you know

34:45
Rob footy field yeah there he go. You know yeah you seven just lathering up. Yeah,

34:52
leather. Yeah, actually triggers a memory. The smell and thinker of me. My brothers made got so much for he's back. He's back went white. And so there was so much and it was just burning.

35:05
I it actually reminds me of the other day, Bray said I can smell like the smell of hot chips at a swimming pool. Yeah, yeah.

35:13
Be here in South Florida.

35:14
Yeah, so interesting. Mix weren't near a swimming pool. So I don't know what the deal was.

35:18
That's what all Oh, well. It's I like it. I like it.

35:23
Oh, factory and the main making. The main point I will think about design is right, like you're looking at someone might think, Oh, well, I don't like that pink. And then like, it's not pink, fuchsia. And now it's like, oh, it's like more like a fact. It's

35:40
totally different styles different spectrums. And so there is a scale when it comes to complexity and abstraction. And some folks have better at staying in the space of ambiguity, abstraction, complexity, and we all have a complexity bias. So for me, some of the messages tattered by some folks, I feel, as you know, in a conference setting is incredibly simplistic and naive and incomplete, but it resonates really well with the audience and other folks on like sheet I have no idea what this academic is saying. Like I'm lost and I'm confused is feels counterintuitive, I feel dumb, but I'm kind of personally quite excited about this too, because I got things to think about. So we just we all have a complexity bias and so essentially

36:20
the model because I feel like when you when we're talking like this, there's a filter which is the young version which is like they're being bankers like this is

36:30
also what is your banker bias in the sense of how do you like it when what is the filtering when someone is being complex? And it's a great question versus just being a bit of a banker i love it i love it um. That the irony of you know, people calling out pretentiousness is that act in and of itself is pretentious, because of pretentious, you know, all the kind of pretentious they, how would they wine tastings and so forth, and using fancy words and so forth is, is an acting in and of itself a potential so when you kind of accept that there's no avoiding when curry if you just assume that went green is the default the just various expressions of when curry we're going to circle jerk. So, but that for me, and for me, my, my, kind of, I don't really think so much of wine curry, I kind of I like it, when it becomes self aware. I think when there's an absence of self awareness when when people aren't mocking themselves in the process of doing it with that if they don't have that blend of iron insincerity when they're sincerely you know you see startup pictures and they're talking about you know some Bluetooth enabled I don't know washing machine or something like that yeah

37:42
and you know they're talking all sincere and stuff like that talking about the you know it's it's kind of like I think that's a bit angry and stuff like that but if they're doing that with that kind of tongue in cheek smirk that suddenly Okay, it's Yeah, I've immersed myself in the Wang curry at a wine tasting and I continue right now when I thrown out that overthinking this is when curry and immerse myself in the world of this person. I'm actually quite enjoyed it. Totally. It I mean, you look for different things. Getting back to whiskey, my my territory whiskey tasting notes are so honest and real. Like there's one I remember. Long on a bottle, it was actually saying like band aids, wet cardboard gym shoes like, it's just like an hellishly real about like that kind of the wife's and wasps

38:25
it you'll get this this, like

38:27
hipster like, you know, keep. Do hipsters. Yeah you would have been you would have been touted a hipster with it to describe Jason you've got luscious beads solid beats a hat that I nearly sort of incorporated similar one into my rebrand array with go le but the it just doesn't so see it sort of flattens my head up anyway you got doesn't show if you're Harry Potter. Scott's. What's that? What is that with a hat cold? Is it a black hat?

38:54
Black Hat. So you

38:55
and you wear vests and stuff like especially

38:57
because I didn't have time to iron my shirt. I will the cap because my has my beginning. Be unruly at the moment. And

39:03
what Josh put that jump around because it's the only one he has

39:09
this kind

39:10
of stuff. Do you do? push back on it Do you like and I love it. I love it so much. Of course with hipsterism. There's the bullshit factor. And that is especially like the hipster thing because I remember I said I think I'm a bit of a hipster and someone said no, you're not became real hipsters never say that. The hipsters?

39:30
Well, yeah. So people are obsessed with definitions, what's real, what's not it's very postmodern and so forth. That's always that's meta model, let's dig postpones more deconstructing and kind of working out in different labels for different things. And what we met him on as reconstructing is taking all the disparate bits and kind of creating something that would be an example of meta modernism in that context. I'm in that context. It's,

39:55
I'd like to say, well, Are you guys familiar with Russell Brand? Yes. Yeah, he's very meta. He's kind of ability to kind of, it's hard to kind of define and he he's able to kind of appreciate and empathize and be curious about a multiplicity of perspectives. He's, it's, it's, it's all over the shop by but but still succinct and contained. I love hackers, hipsters and hippies there is this notion of this, this is something I got from that book, the listening society, I love these guys. But this, this, this Rise of the Triple H and each of them, it makes sense as to why we're getting this in society. So, and he hipsters for example, they're helping us make meaning in this post digital world, this hyper connected thing where everything's touch screens and displays and we have everything that's will connect them that they're helping to research vinyl to do like, you know, in Scandinavia when I worked there, apparently the hipsters they're into smoking their own sausages and so forth and they're doing this they kind of rekindling this stuff and it's bringing meaning back like slow things like disconnecting from stuff, hip hippies and bringing back enchantment into our world. Like we've been so disillusioned disenchantment, where everything's fact and fake and bullshit and stuff like that but they're kind of rekindling magic. And they're not doing it with, like, old, you know, Crystal shop, you know, it's kind of using modern science but in this way to help us be healthier and happier, sleep better and eat better and so forth. And, and hackers are finding novel better ways to deal with some of the more complex challenges of society. You know, you don't look to governments anymore to solve transnational, you know, global challenges, like climate change, and so forth. You look to the really ingenious hackers that like, you know what, we can use technology in this way, and do this better than anyone else has Mark Zuckerberg

41:37
need Kelly, the only hipster

41:41
look at Nick Kelly. He's like, I saw a photo of him. I don't know anything about new fairly well, other than the whole it was broken. But he looked he was an ultimate hipster. Yeah, I mean, your set your style is what I'll say is, like all it'd be an old fashioned

41:57
Well, it's a wondering why Santini he's got like a mask on

42:03
the acoustics are sort of, but you're talking about there is juxtaposition. Ryan so I like this stuff. I think it's cool and so forth. But also I tend to speak and work in very future focused space. Yeah, but the kind of to bring in as a soldier into the future based conversation is kind of good. It's like a juxtaposition. Is it skeptical but ideological, it's kind of nostalgic, but futuristic. It's like its own the things what, what about the,

42:34
the ID that all of this stuff has been done before? Like everything, we just like repeating history and that sort of like an eye rolling of the, like, scrape. What's, what's your view on that? Yeah,

42:46
yeah. It's, it's kind of this, this, this how the blend of like, the date pessimism and skepticism and almost like nihilism, which means everything's meaningless, this kind of thing. It's all bullshit. Like, people have talked about this before. Who am I to do this anyway? Who, who awaited is like this is, what are we doing anyway, combined with a well, let's do it anyway, let's see what we can do. And let's like, let's kind of recombine these elements in this expression, and kind of say, things have been said before, but perhaps from this angle, or in this way, at this particular point in time. And it's that that confluence of the fact that we're all influenced by all the experiences, we have the conversations that connections and so forth, I realize I'm doing a lot of gestures with one hand, you can't pick up on radio, but and this all influences and shapes who we are. So yeah, nothing's really original. Because it's kind of formed based upon our interactions, we co create each other, and so forth. And that's kind of cool. And that's fine. You know, life is inherently meaningless. But we can also make incredibly rich and magical meaning out of the broken meaninglessness of too many people try and claim that they've got new ideas. Yeah, and this comes back to a certain level of complexity. I think that if we look at something, notions of creativity through different layers of complexity, at the simpler level, you might think of people that are looking for the Eureka moment where they have this Spark, and like, I've got it and I've got this original idea, and I go, need to go get it patented, and so forth. I've got this perfect idea. And then Josh, every week, Richard, Richard, you and then others are more like, if we want to stimulate more creativity, it's less about trying to find these eureka moments and more about our what's the systems that we have in place, how can we cultivate you know approaches small systemically and so forth, and and others start to say, says, Okay, we'll ideas and thinking of more just the emergent phenomena of the complex interactions of different thoughts and peoples and so forth. And so any expression of an idea isn't really truly yours. It's kind of some sort of, there's a notion of, there isn't a notion of magnetic drift names being ideas, you know, you spread means on the internet and so forth. But ideas emerging and they kind of drift and as a pastor, different cultures they take on different flavors and so forth and they might just have emerged from you from you can be different disparate conversations and experiences you've had and then it seems unique because you haven't actually personally experienced this anymore, then more knowing nature realizes that actually what the chances are pretty high that maybe someone else's thought similarly there's a notion called seniors which is collective intelligence is where you have like people having the same ideas button very different parts of the world completely apparently disconnected. So you start to realize I cool Well, what is that? Is that some sort of like magic sort of shit going up? Like what does that actually what's that theory Okay, well magic's and interesting one, right, so certain levels of complexity, people believe in actual magic and just look at his magic, I think a more healthy definition. And magic is things that exist in order of complexity higher than our ability to comprehend. So if you look at like, I don't actually know how the smartphone works and things like that. It looks like it seems to be like magic. I literally did not know how it works. And I'm sure I can find out. And there are people who know that it's not actual magic. But it seems to be like magic. And there are things that happen in our in our world, that could just be confirmation bias. It could just be a whole heap of narrative, logical fallacies that we're falling player to, it could be something of a higher order of complexity, we just don't really know yet. And we can call it magic as a placeholder for the fact that we actually just haven't done the work yet. What about religion? Is that what some people would do some people replace those sort of ideas with the faith, I think, I think, Wow, okay, lovely territory that we're in I religions and interesting one, you can have some incredibly intelligent complex thinkers that still hold on to the mythology of religious belief. And it probably served them in some way. And they can make peace with the fact that there is conflicting bits of it, and they can exist as good people in the world. And that's totally fine. I think that I mean, mythology is one of these persistent things. It's, there's always going to be something there. I think that

47:00
but what does this there's this thing called sin theism that's emerged, which is theism which is religion, and atheism combined. So this is like the episode where if we were to have show notes, probably

47:15
say the word in what's in theism synthesis, not that I'm missing theist, but But what we're talking about those, this for those that are listening and have a hunch and have their finger on the pulse. There's this emerging emerging kind of sense of reconstruction, the world we're going beyond this bit, everything is broken, everything's fact, like, look at climate change, look at overpopulation, refugee crisis, look at the corruption in politics and all that stuff. We get a lot that is fracking going on yet. But we're getting a little bit beyond that. We're realizing, oh, well, we'll kind of have agency here that the distances between us, I mean, Josh is going to be away soon. But that we haven't seen this collapse of distances where it doesn't matter that Josh is gonna be on the other side of the planet, like, you guys are still going to be deeply connected, or listeners are going to be connected. And, and so we're in really new territory together. And that means that we can actually, each individually in a small way, potentially have a big collective impact. And this is something to get excited about. So you think that that because I have moments of like, I'm only one person this,

48:15
I don't think that there's a huge amount like, Oh, I see the complexity in everything that's going on. And I'm like, okay, the world same. So fact that I have an paralyzed by it. And I'm like, Okay, well, is me stopping to eat meat or replacing my coffee cup with a cape cod like tokenistic, yeah, or is that actually going to make real change? And I worry that it's a

48:43
it feels tokenistic? Yeah, yeah.

48:45
Me too. My undergraduate was environmental science. So I studied all this stuff. I remember one unit, I did global environmental issues that was like week one overpopulation week, to soil pollution, week, three heavy metals, wait for Amesbury pollution, week five and so on. And then week, 13 hope it was this like tokenistic hope thing, but on and at that stage turning off your lions doing your cycling and so forth, bringing your own bag rather than plastic bags. But that was all the rage back then it seemed incredibly small tokenistic things, but I think the thing is, we kind of he kind of you to accept the other worlds complex for any small insignificant bits amongst the world. But they can kind of play some sort of role. And it might be not that we always we might not always add here or subscribe to all the right behaviors. It's pretty onerous and complex and difficult for us to do anyway. But if we see this as an infinite game, which we all kind of have a bit of a role to play. We don't know what the outcome will be. But we're in this to you know, adventure together to kind of slightly reference the chat we've had with Hamish and and and approaching life as this kind of infinite game where the point is to continue to play together. It's not to win so that other people lose. But this collective since we're all in it together brings about a sense of Yeah, cool. It's it's complex, it's big, and software individually, I can't change anything. But we can still we can still do it. It's sort of like religion in some regards. It's this idea that

50:13
this is God doing these things will give me these virtues which will allow for internal growth, whether the actual destination is true or not the process of me thinking about what I'm buying, and what I'm doing is actually more beneficial than Yeah, yeah,

50:29
I think something possibly, yeah. And, and, or possibly not, there's this, this kind of thing of like, maybe, maybe it like, has meaning, right? We're all making meaning, you know, we're making money, whatever you want. But if you look at things like say, you know, we're in a fairly progressive city here in Melbourne, you look at the number of vegetarian and vegan restaurants about the place, it's becoming more popular, people are kind of becoming a little bit more empathetic to the way the animals are treated, and so forth. There's still a lot of room that we can go I'm on my way towards vegetarianism. But, you know, I still have made occasionally. But you look at these cues and these science and so forth, if you look at, like, the supermarkets, ditching plastic bags and stuff like that, and it may have felt insignificant back then. But, you know, we don't know the future we're going to, but you can look back and in hindsight, you can actually see some pretty good indicators of meaningful progress. Well,

51:15
I heard a woman speaking on singularity. Yeah. What's your What's your thoughts on that? Basically, I'm asking, Can you explain it because

51:25
singularity in terms of artificial intelligence

51:27
was around that future of work. And, and it was actually it was around the,

51:33
the belief of nothing matters, there's no meaning to existence. Interesting. So the many, many perspectives he had probably beyond the scope of this podcast. It's incredibly exciting. There's a there's so singularity can mean different things it can be when artificial intelligence wakes up and kind of has this Unified Consciousness it could be this sense that human consciousness reaches a point of singularity where we realized that were you know, to, quote, be hooked, Hicks, the comedian that we are all

52:04
simply that Oh, matter is simply energy at a slight vibration. There's no such thing as death. Life is on your dream, and where the imaginations of ourselves and you know, you say he's a comedian was that one of these jokes, because that was a shit job.

52:17
We ended with his time with the web today, young man on acid realize that we are all American Dental, sleep vibration, and I just trim those bits of that time it was in a tool album that was into

52:28
singularity. And it's I didn't know what context it was, it was pushing towards a movement of young kids that are starting to see this world is fascinating. Okay, cool. And I don't know if it's more

52:44
See what I did that because I'm so used to like being on panels and stuff, just launching, like, I'm trying to think what the fuck does that mean, as I'm speaking, I actually remember what the fuck is so good. And but

52:57
I mean, the kids kind of it is interesting, if you think about getting these days, they're on their phone, so much kids these days, and so forth. But their social ecology is very much related to technology, they don't see technology as something separate to them. It's inherently a meshed in the experience of living now, which is something we've never had before. And they've also looking at how brains are changing and how kids use technology. We're also sending asked questions about companies that use dark patterns to to create addictive behaviors. So things like infinite scroll, and other other things that trick you into staying on sites longer, I spoke on in trouble for that sort of, there's all

53:33
sorts of doing like experiments,

53:35
it makes sense as a business model, you just got to think about these things. And so hence why I like hipsters, because they're opting out of some of these things. And so people are, you know, you're too cool for Facebook, and so forth. It's like, actually, we're just beginning to realize that it's not actually making us happy. And there's possibly more meaningful ways that we can connect with each other. But for kids and stuff growing up like this, where their social network The fabric is very much built into technology. I yeah,

53:59
just know what that's going to mean, in terms of how things emerge. It could be beautiful, could be ugly, or you see the the way my son reacts to a phone seeing it's amazing he already sees the button pressing it off. It's it blows my mind, I turned it off. Or he Yeah, so you can hang up on you sees it

54:19
hangs up on you. Nice, but he knows how to open it.

54:21
Yeah, not like it's

54:23
Chris the screen to get it activated yet.

54:25
And then you look at, you know, kids in the education system at the moment where teachers doing the very best that they can, but like the world and like the world that they're getting exposed to, is accelerating so much. And they're getting exposed to all sorts of information and stuff in there. And what's missing, perhaps is that critical thinking that digital literacy and so forth, but it's just going to have to emerge because the people in the roles of teaching it didn't grow up with this stuff. And so there's all sorts of complex experiences that kids are having these days that we have no idea about, what have you opted out of that the rest of the general public are doing at the moment

55:00
I have opted out of urgency regarding email so I have an autoresponder at the moment that I've declared this as a year wizard for me I choose one word every year and partly there's a quote and wizard is never late and I want to play with my relationship to time I would often and you know, it's a mosaic I get back to this email and so forth and I've got to change some anxious thing whereas now my order respond to just manages expectations and just look on super slow if it's urgent get in touch with my partner Kim Kim's on point with emails. But you know, you know, in what lovely balanced way in batches and so forth. And I'm, like, I'm not obsessive about social media are pretty much become a pretty much ghosted Facebook at the moment, like I pop in every now and then just see what's happening. Haven't got quite to the point of deleting it. But I came very close

55:50
has it given you what you expected. I remember there was a guy named Paul who works at the verge who did a whole 12 month experiment, I remember reading a way went off offline. And it turns it like you who's just as depressed as he was before you just like transition from those pacifiers to the other.

56:13
And there's a book I read called Deep work recently by Cal Newport focus success in a distracted world. And what I found was really helpful for me there is just being conscious of internet blocks. So he has this line around and most people take breaks from distraction to do focused work so have these weekend retreats where they go away and they're kind of there's no internet and stuff and I can just get focused and so forth he says, the norm should be focused work with deep work and we take breaks to distraction so you're doing the deep stuff and then you can when you're when when you want to break then you go to distraction into it rather than Yeah, instead of distraction being the norm and so for me trying and I slipped so many times but trying to be just conscious of not checking my phone before you know ideally before noon in the I'm just not looking at it like is huge when I'm able to do that. But it's also so easy for my phone alarm to go off and I'm scrolling on Instagram and blah blah blah and so forth. But it's gotten better

57:10
the hard thing is I think it's the psychology of say going on holidays I remember making the decision of the difference between say Bray in my approach when I was an employee where I'd be like I wouldn't check my email at all and then I'll come back to whatever was there whereas Bray strategy was if I deal with it now it's then off my plate for when we come back which one do you think he's

57:38
three wins

57:40
which are Which one do you think you know if someone's planning a four week trip and they going away is the white and the same I guess in your scenario which is like is is the way of knowing that you're going to arrive to your phone at 12 o'clock with a lot of unread things is is that a is that enough of a downside yeah to take on that oh my gosh i mean i

58:04
i have a mate will table is his name is really cool guy and agency and

58:11
he has this thing where he goes on holidays is autoresponder is I'm on holidays now, and won't be back until blah, your email has been deleted. If it's important. get back in touch with me after then. Or something like that. It's more nicely worded. But the idea of the emails deleted. So you don't have this fear of like, Oh, shit, what am I coming back to? So you can genuinely have a good holiday. That's the ideal, but we're also talking about privilege here. Like some people, it's just not feasible to be able to do that. Yeah,

58:35
yeah. Well, it's, I mean, if you work for somebody, if the person that you work for, that's gonna be there a problem, but if you're your own boss, it's, you know, we're needing to, I always smile

58:47
like I just wanted, I need to turn off my voicemail because people don't like six and listen to voicemail gives you anxiety. Yeah, well, it's just like, I know that I've got up there and I'm like, like, they people end up reaching me another anyway. So don't leave a voicemail. And then now email me. What's the classic one of getting to someone's voice, man? They say, if you need me, send me a message. Yeah,

59:08
so you say my phone call come through.

59:10
But yeah, just

59:12
like hacking the systems where it's like, okay, though, designed for one way. Yeah, but how do we had to we make them work for us, rather than just take this. And I guess that's the thing of instant messaging. We've created this idea that it is instant. Yeah. And slack. I think he's like, royally fucking people at the moment within businesses. Because there's this thing of like, Oh, it's flexible. It's amazing. But your content at 11 o'clock if someone were to say

59:40
you have to respond. I had a light bulb moment when one of my clients said to me, he kind of just gave me some unsolicited feedback which was really lovely he said it kind of the reasons why I like working with you. Oh, I mentioned the other stuff but he said you get

59:57
your amazing videos ago nobody said get back to me really quickly and I was like yeah, I didn't even feel like I wanted I didn't even think that I responded to him really quickly. Um, but then I was like, fuck I've set that expectation yes getting victim really quickly yeah

1:00:13
so I hadn't observed my eye view like that before and that's all in that plays into people pleasing to right because I know that it I've had clients where they've had that expectation and it's all good when they're the only client on but then you get a couple more and then all of a sudden you're the asshole that took four hours to respond when they used to 15 minutes

1:00:35
four weeks in life in my case I think you know you've got your autoresponder I experienced this with somebody where

1:00:42
the auto response came back that was something of similar I check my emails at once a day and they can be so freakish though. The order I try to make my nice and yeah, when, you know, eccentric, but yeah, but then every time they'll respond to me within 30 minutes. And that all responded was always coming back. So it's like, I think there's an easy shift consistency,

1:01:00
most likely they're using it as a filter to say, because I almost rated as I'm getting your email I i peak, I know that I'm terrible at writing back to the ship that I don't care about as much. So I'm going to place that there. So then I can prior it gives Yeah, allows them to save face while creating a prioritization system. Would you say Is that how you kind of

1:01:24
what I like, you know, that subject lines or wizards never laid, I call it an automatic reply. And I talk about, you know, I'm trying to work on a new book at the moment. And I'm often flying between different countries and clients and so forth. And if it's really urgent, get in touch with Kim and so forth. Otherwise, I'll I'll get back to you when I can. And it's kind of like, well, if it's really important, they'll get to Kim and so forth. If they didn't get to Kim, it's probably not important. And so far, I've liberated myself of the what used to be quite a crippling anxious burden of shit, this person is email because then it puts you focus back on like the work you guys doing. Now, this is one too many, whereas all email exchanges like one to one and it's like you can blow a lot of time just just doing one to one activities that takes you away from your one too many activities should do an episode just talking to all the emails.

1:02:10
Well, the interesting thing is on that point, like that was a decision that Tommy and I made, which was high at the daily talk, show.com is about people reaching out to us and we'll respond through voice really beautiful rather than responding them to them directly. Because for one, it's not scalable, doing it the other way and to it's like we want to celebrate it we want to create content for the show and this is what it's about. Our aim is this right now is this conversation Yeah, and when people respond, they won't necessarily get a response from us and I think auto response explaining this would be good but then knowing that I listened to the show because we we talk about it and I know you're getting swamped I was about 1010 we had

1:02:55
a lap yes

1:02:57
a lot but

1:02:59
yeah it's

1:03:02
guys

1:03:03
we need to just reminding me we got some some mail

1:03:09
Oh yeah. This is the second time we've ever gotten mail

1:03:12
charting. Yeah, thank you to Trevor Trevor

1:03:15
who funnily enough he was on he was a guest on our show and he's in San Jose at the moment he was listening to the listening to the podcast whilst in San Jose cuz he's doing all the coverage for WWDC and what sort of thing he does all day

1:03:33
all of the tech stuff trying to work at

1:03:35
ww Worldwide Developers Conference it's so Apple announces a heap of things so he'll be you'll see tread on the TV a bunch man like this is what Apple's announced so thanks Trevor. For the mail he put 16 $1

1:03:50
stamps for Express host occasion I haven't

1:03:54
done I haven't sent a package in so long I just it's I find it really

1:04:01
it's that were expecting people to say hey o

1:04:03
box I literally have a fox tail box that we got ahead from our old place yeah which is brings up a whole nother thing of why even bother with that trying to cancel was outrageous. Like Then they asked me I told him I not coming back for a while. They said do you have a friend that would want that you could it was became some sort of Ponzi scheme that they get a you have to send back the box. Funnily enough, you can keep the keep the remote

1:04:30
which I wouldn't want your

1:04:34
guys remember like the cartoon shows like at grows cartoon? Agron yeah like you'd be able to draw a picture and send it to lock bag frozen so whatever and it is crazy

1:04:46
what people on YouTube get sent these days like it is the same thing as the aggro back in the day it's YouTube is just getting sent a shitload of this stuff by kids yeah and but you guys wanted to mention how we happy to take every time

1:05:00
something nice about the physicality of like actually getting things right and that's what Now that we've got our new hashtag rebrand of the show as well. Want to get like patches made of our logo and stuff so people could sexy. Yeah. Nice. Yeah.

1:05:18
So the Lego established like yesterday

1:05:25
for the future.

1:05:26
Yeah, that was like, it's an impressive Wow, you didn't offer Roman and yeah,

1:05:31
I'm actually laughed at businesses that are put the established on their thing

1:05:35
to 2016. But you

1:05:37
gotta start somewhere.

1:05:38
Yeah, there's, I think the Wi Fi in this area of irony. And sort of, you know, we're talking about the intro before as well. But yeah, I think that maybe sometimes it gets missed. But sometimes you don't even know. It's like, love it when you being a bit of a parody of yourself. Yeah. And then you say, Good. Jason Fox, thank you for being on the show. Thanks. Day. We want it. We want to have friends of the show. So I think it would be great to have you back on just to talk every time Tommy and I have a situation where we need to get meta meta, mon Yeah,

1:06:09
I do. Is that

1:06:10
what you're doing? Is that Is this what you want it like a you

1:06:14
know, I feel uncomfortable

1:06:15
with that. There are folks better at that than I am. I'm just gonna try. Keep doing what I do. See. Just get get some more videos happening with you

1:06:26
guys. Some new stuff to look at. Well, Amina 2031,

1:06:27
so

1:06:31
they're great, man. That's great

1:06:33
talk show everyone. Please do send us a mouse. We went turn on an autoresponder and i'll i'll get back to all of them. Hi. The Daily talk show.com social anxiety levels just went up