Aussie who just visited North Korea

Josh: It's The Daily Talk Show, episode 83.

Tommy: I'm Josh Janson and I'm Tommy Jackett.

Josh: I was on, uh, I was on Instagram, uh, the other day looking—

Tommy: well, you spend 8 hours a day on it.

Josh: No, it's 8 hours a week.

Tommy: Sorry.

Josh: Anyway, I was, um, doing a flick through Insta Stories, uh, and I follow a guy, Chris. He, uh, I think he's based out of Collingwood, or anyway, I always would see him in Collingwood. And then he does a lot of like film photography type of shit. And he just does this post where he's got maybe like 20, uh, like rolls of film. And it was just saying that he was going to North Korea, as you do, as you do. So I was like, obviously I've had a fascination of North Korea, you know. I've never really finished a, uh, you've got his haircut, you've got Kim's hair, I've got a bit of that vibe going on. But anyway, so I, uh, Instagrammed Chris and said, mate, will you come on the podcast?

Tommy: Slid it in my DMs.

Josh: Slid it in his DMs, is that what they say?

Tommy: And here he is.

Josh: We've got Chris on the line now. You're in Beijing, is that right?

Chris: Yep, yep, yep.

Josh: Perfect. Have I fucked any of that storey up or does that sound pretty accurate?

Chris: That sounds, yeah, just about accurate, yeah.

Josh: Okay, great.

Tommy: So before we get into the adventures of Chris, so are you based in Melbourne?

Chris: I was, I was. I'm actually moving to the UK after this trip.

Josh: Awesome. So, like, this is your, this is your, like, nomad time of just doing where— going wherever you want type of deal?

Chris: Yeah, a little bit. A little bit. Having my quarter-life crisis, just quit my job and, yeah, travelling for a bit.

Josh: Perfect. I'm about to do that. I mean, I feel like mine's slightly half-assed because it's got sort of like a 3-month— like, I've contained it to 3 months and then I'm coming home. Yeah, nice. So, how long have you been travelling so far?

Chris: Oh, just on 10 days now. I'm just in the beginning.

Josh: Okay, great. And so, have you booked? How have you done your trip? Did you just book sort of a trip to the UK and had a few stops?

Chris: What's your plan? Yeah, so once I got my visa all done, I booked my— I just sort of decided the country I was going to and I sort of planned it around the North Korea trip because you have to go on a tour.

Josh: Yeah.

Chris: Um, and so I found Salt Stage for the tour that I wanted to go on, um, and sort of worked it around that. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Josh: And so North Korea, you, um, so what's, what's the deal? How do you, how do you get in? How does it all happen? How do you just decide on a tour to go with?

Chris: Yeah, so, um, A couple years ago, a friend of a friend put up like a Facebook post saying they were getting rid of all their shit, like to join in on a garage sale. And I got in on that and I met him, and his name is Matt. Um, he's at Matt Kulesza, um, K-U-E-L-S-Z-A, I think, on Instagram. Um, and yeah, I was getting chatting to him and I'm like, oh, so where are you moving? He's like, oh, moving off to Beijing. Um, I've got a new job there. I'm like, yeah, cool, what are you doing? He's like, oh, I'm gonna be a tour guide for North for North Korea. I was like, oh, what the fuck? Like, wild. Um, and so it sort of became mates after that. Um, and after following you on Insta and like seeing all these pics, I'm like, okay, this looks so like just so not what I thought it would be. Um, that's what— just like, fuck it, like, let's just go and see what it's like.

Tommy: Um, so what did you think it was going to be and what Well, I tried to avoid, uh, like a lot of Googling about other travellers' experiences.

Chris: I sort of didn't want— I sort of wanted to go there with fresh eyes. Um, and they give you like a little primer when you book the tour, like, you know, what to bring and sort of like etiquette and stuff like that. Um, but like, I didn't like—

Tommy: When you say etiquette, what does etiquette mean? Like, I know what etiquette means, but is in What's their fucking etiquette?

Chris: Yeah, oh, so, uh, I guess as a sort of— so the whole deal is that you have to be with your guide at all times, um, and so you can't just like go off and wander, um, by yourself. You're always in a group, um, or with a guide. So I thought it was going to be fairly restrictive, but they do let you like walk out on the streets and mingle with locals. But because it's like such an isolationist country, like the Koreans are quite shy And like, they see sort of foreigners about, and instead of being like a curiosity, like, what the fuck, they're kind of just like, who is this person? Yeah, I'm uncomfortable. Um, but it was May Day when I went, so we got to like walk through the park where, uh, I guess it's kind of like— I mean, it's a bad analogy, but I guess kind of a bit like Christmas. Where it was just full of families having barbecue and getting really day drunk and they were getting loose and they were just having a great time. Like, we were walking through, they was like dancing with us and like, you just give them a drink and you say cheers, which is like choppae in North Korea, and they just love it and go wild.

Josh: And what was your friend's experience going into being like a tour guide. What, what did he tell you before you, um, signed up?

Chris: Um, so I didn't really ask him a lot, like, apart from what I'd seen. Again, I sort of wanted to be a bit, um, naive, I guess. Um, but I had a bit of worries going in because I was taking in like over 100 rolls of film. Um, and I was like, oh, I'm a bit worried about customs, like, does that look a bit dodgy? You know, he's like, oh mate, you're going to be pleasantly surprised by the customs there.

Josh: Yeah.

Chris: Um, and yeah, it was, it was rushed and hectic, but it wasn't scary at all. Like, they took all our phones, um, and electronic devices, um, and then just like didn't even cheque them and gave them back to us. Yeah.

Josh: Well, it's funny, when I told Tommy, I, I said about I saw the rolls of films, he's filming, he's like, oh, what, they don't allow digital cameras? I'm like, no, Chris just loves fucking film photography.

Chris: Yeah, yeah, it's, um, it's like, I remember seeing a lot of these, like, those, those, like, articles. It's like, 'Cis photographers smuggle these photographs out of North Korea.' But the fact is, like, you're allowed to take photographs there. Um, they sort of let you wander around an area, and they've got, like, pretty basic rules, which I think are fairly reasonable. Uh, kind of like, don't photograph people of the military, because I mean, you can't really get into that anywhere.

Josh: Yeah.

Chris: So, that's their biggest sort of no-no. I think the thing is there, there's like this military everywhere, like lots of just out and about, and it's like sort of military members do construction and everything. So, you know, can't really take photos of construction sites and stuff like that.

Tommy: So, it's a dictatorship or it's a country under dictatorship. There's this guy who, I don't know if you know him, Michael Malice, he wrote this book called The Unauthorized Autobiography of Kim Jong-il. And if, like, if it's fascinating, I, I've been listening to a podcast he did, and it gives you the breakdown of the family, um, you know, the grandpa Kim.

Chris: Yeah, Kim Il-sung.

Tommy: Yeah. And then he's— his son Kim Jong-il, and then the current guy Kim Jong-un.

Chris: Yeah, yeah.

Tommy: And like, oh, it's, it's fascinating. I'm not going to get into that, but this guy Michael Malice, he went there in 2012, which was like the year after Kim Jong-il died.

Chris: Yeah.

Tommy: And he was saying that these people in the country, as in the people who live there like us in Australia, he was saying they're like hostages. We're not hostages here, but he was saying the people that live there are essentially hostages within a dictatorship. That what I'm hearing is it doesn't sound like they're hostages. They're getting pissed in the park.

Josh: That sounds like— I guess maybe we're all fucking hostages in our own world and we just don't realise it.

Chris: Yeah, I think it's your vibe. I didn't get that vibe at all because, I mean, they are allowed to travel to like China and other countries like that, and like from Pyongyang they can fly to Russia and China. Um, but I think it's more that like within that society they're all sort of like, um Uh, they're also brought up—

Josh: they're all looking, they're all looking out at each other, right? Like, they're all—

Chris: it's not— it's more like, um, the, the figures of the party, like the Korean Workers' Party, um, the figures of Kim Il-sung and Kim Jong-il and now Kim Jong-un, they're sort of deified. Um, so it's not so much they're terrified of them, it's more that like it's this sort of like extreme sort of love and devotion.

Tommy: Um, you know about what happened for people that weren't crying hard enough in the streets for Kim Jong-il? They got sentenced to 6 months jail.

Chris: I've heard that. Um, but like, I feel there's so many like unsubstantiated like claims. Like, um, I think it's like— I can't remember what the quote is, but like someone's just said like you can literally in the West print anything about North Korea and just all these newspapers will run it, like media will run it because they can't— you can't fact-check it. Um, yeah. And, um, I guess you can go and flick through a bunch of, um, like sort of sensationalist stuff, um, like about that, like about the stupid storey about Kim Jong-un, um, scoring a, like, an impossible golf score or something like that.

Josh: Yeah, yeah.

Chris: Um, and like there's no source for them, like it's literally some either from like a satire or a gossip outside or from some sort of dodgy South Korean sort of news source. But like, it is a weird country. Like, it's so— it's just something. It's like stepping into— there's nothing— there's not a lot of things when you're there to place yourself in 2018. Like, a few people there have smartphones and stuff, but sort of like, there's no ads. Anywhere, um, like at all in the entire country. There are two ads. There was one in the— in our hotel for like this sort of natural medicine product, um, and this one for a co-developed North and South Korean car. One billboard, like, just outside of Pyongyang that I saw. Yeah, it's really weird. Like, you go to the metro and there's, uh, there's like no, uh, ads anywhere.

Josh: And did you, um, you You know, you were obviously part of a tour that had other people. What sort of nationalities were going to visit?

Chris: There was a few Australians. There was a few people from Norway, India, Switzerland, Germany.

Josh: Because the US can't go there, can they now? Or can they still? No.

Chris: No, so, um, the tour company that I went with, they don't take US citizens anymore after the last, um, after— I forget his name, but Otto someone— after that sort of incident. Yeah, there was a few Canadians, plenty Canadians, um, but yeah, it was a real mix.

Josh: And what was the tour, what was the tour like? Like, how, um, how legit did it feel? Did it feel like you were, you were safe? What sort of preparation did they give you?

Chris: Oh yeah, I mean, I'm totally safe, um, in terms of personal safety and like stuff like that. Yeah, like, so the— you have your two, um, or your one, uh, sort of guide from the company. So I had, um, that guy Matt. Yeah. And then you have two Korean guides, um, and they're like lovely. They'll tell you just like— they'll be like introduce themselves and like sort of tell you about things, but also just kind of like They'll like drink with you like in the evenings. And like, yeah, you can just like chat to them and stuff. And like, yeah, they'll just be like, they'll tell you like, you know, like, oh, please don't take photos here, you know, just be careful, you know, stuff like that. Like they're there to make sure you have a nice time.

Josh: Were there any troublemakers in the tour group?

Chris: Ah, not really, not really. Like there was a couple of rowdy ones who just got a bit drunk on the bus, but off like the cheap soju. But like, no, not really. I think everyone's sort of like, if you're the kind of person that goes to Korea, you're not gonna be the kind of idiot that fucks around, you know? Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

Tommy: So you're not an idiot and you don't fuck around is what I'm hearing.

Chris: I am an idiot and I do fuck around, but just not there.

Tommy: Actually, you're an Aussie moving to London. You're gonna be a pisshead at the pub any minute. Um, did you see, was there like photos of Kim Jong-un around, or—

Chris: Yeah, everywhere. Yeah.

Tommy: Um, when you say everywhere, what do you mean?

Chris: Like, it's actually less— It's less Kim Jong-un, it's more Kim Il-sung and Kim Jong-il. Um, so the statues, large sort of bronze statues of them in every sort of major city. The biggest ones are in Pyongyang, and they're huge. They're, I think, I feel like 20 metres tall or something. They're huge.

Josh: Um, Just very quickly, Chris, are you on headphones by any chance?

Chris: I am, I am.

Josh: Is it possible to unplug and just go directly on the phone? I reckon that could be way clearer potentially.

Chris: Okay, one second. Okay, I am unplugged.

Josh: Yeah, I think that's better. Yeah, thanks, man.

Tommy: Um, okay, so we're, um, so they're just what, these statues are just in squares? Like, what's the the vibe? You know, what's the kind of suburbs like, or is it like just city?

Chris: So, oh, Pyongyang is beautiful. Like, I hadn't— I didn't know it'd be like that going in there. Like, Pyongyang was just, just a really aesthetically beautiful city. Like, spotless, absolutely spotless. Um, and just like lots of really bright pastel like buildings and stuff. Um, and also there's some really weird buildings. They've got like, um, this Science Center that's shaped like And like, you know, there's like high school diagrams of an atom. Um, they've got this huge—

Josh: Tommy doesn't because I don't think he ever made it to high school.

Chris: What's high school? They've got like, um, yeah, one of the islands on the Taedong River, they've got like this huge building shaped like that. They're science-centered. Um, yeah, so Pyongyang is like really beautiful and like, uh, like lots of big public spaces. Um, like really, and a lot of them are dedicated to lots of monuments. Like every block, there's like sort of monument. Like there's the reunification monument, there's like the Juche Tower. That's sort of like the, um, the ideology, um, like that Kim Il-sung sort of came up with. Um, and then there's the huge, um, you know, huge, uh, like statues. Yeah, there's just like monuments everywhere.

Josh: And did you get— so you've been posting on social media that you went. What's been the feedback of your social media followers? Has there been criticism? What is it? What does your family think about you going? What's been the response there?

Chris: The response has been more just been like, oh my God, show us Fargoese. And then when like I've sent some pictures through, they've been like, what the hell, that is not what we thought it would be. And I'm like, Yeah, it's, it's, yeah, it's, um, the image we get, like, sort of a North Korean West, sort of like this real miserable, great place. Um, but I think we forget that, like, even if the political, um, side of it is, you know, quite grim and dark, there's still, like, millions of people there living their daily lives. Um, you know, it's still making the best of whatever this is. Um, But yeah, it was, it was like, I, I mean, I went on a big public holiday, um, so I thought like a pretty nice vibe, tbh.

Josh: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Tommy: Just 20 million people living in North Korea. And I mean, the reality is, maybe the reality of what you're seeing isn't what the feeling of what it's there or how it's portrayed.

Josh: Well, Pyongyang is a specific area of North Korea, and I guess a lot of the, uh the people who would speak negatively towards North Korea would cite that fact, which is Pyongyang is a, is an area where, uh, you know, wealthy people or people who have been sort of, who are very high up on the ladder, uh, are living.

Tommy: I mean, the place doesn't even have the internet. They've got like under 20 websites on the intranet. Like, I mean, that's the reality of their world, right?

Chris: So like a dictatorship, just It's very cut off, like, um, very— yeah, yeah. Um, and like, we did see the countryside, and the countryside completely sort of like, um, in contrast to like Pyongyang, it's really, um, like pre-industrialized, like sort of agrarian society. Um, and I guess that's sort of like— I just think people forget it's a developing country. Yeah. Um, like, it is a developing country. Like, it's just um, like, like other parts of Asia, right? Yeah, it's another developing country in, you know, in the, you know, in Asia. And it's like in the farm, they're using, um, you know, sort of manual ox ploughs and lots of manual labor, um, sort of very little industrial, um, sort of stuff going on there. Um, so yeah, I mean, like, I, I can't— I don't, I don't know. I, I have I can't speak Korean. I couldn't really chat to him.

Tommy: I mean, imagine, imagine, um, Malcolm Turnbull, the— not— I was about to say President of Australia, darling, at high school. What's his name? What is he?

Josh: Prime Minister.

Tommy: Prime Minister of Australia. Imagine him killing his brother or having his brother killed.

Josh: It's probably not ideal, which is essentially what Jong-un did. And there are, I guess, a few of the—

Chris: like, a lot of, uh, cases even sort of I think it's hard for us to imagine what it's like as a North Korean, just because if you've grown up in that sort of, yeah, closed-off world, um, like, they really, they really love and adore their, um, their leaders with a sort of like, um, I guess like the closest thing you can think of is like a religious fervor, um, and like that's that sort of reverence, like the, the reverence that you'd have for and respect that you have like people's, um, sort of like religious beliefs and stuff like that. It's kind of like how they feel about their leaders.

Josh: So, but being so disconnected, what was it like? Because you're someone who's pretty connected on social media and things like that, so you spent a few days not being connected to the internet. What was that like?

Chris: Um, at the start it was weird because I kept pulling my phone out and, um, like you have the muscle memory where your thumb goes to the app automatically. Um, you know, when like, yeah, and you just like, just like myself, unlock it. Mindlessly. Yeah. And then like, obviously it wouldn't load. But then after a few days, it's just like, um, it's actually really nice. Like, you just sort of like— yeah, it was really nice. And, um, I think I made a post, I was like, I hate that. I, I love the term digital detox because if it's like a toxin in our body, um, because, you know, like, I love the internet, I love the things that brought me in, like, um, but it was really, really nice. And also I found myself going to bed like immediately and not dicking around on my phone for an hour and also just like waking up and being ready in like 20 minutes because I'm not just like lying there like app switching.

Tommy: Interesting. It's like when you're on a plane, I end up just going through my photos and deleting them and looking around on the plane. Everyone else is doing the same because they got no Wi-Fi. But did you actually— you know how like people are walking around Melbourne with it or anywhere in the world that allows you to be connected on their mobile phones? So that's just not happening there. Are people on looking down?

Chris: Uh, they're looking up and around. They just look like there's a lot of, um, just hanging out in public spaces, just, um, chatting. A lot of the smoking is still quite, you know, a thing there. Um, so yeah, lots of people just like standing around having a cig. Um, yeah, it's just like lots of— I guess public life is kind of like, like a lot of places in Southeast Asia You know, public life is really different to how it is in Australia. But yeah, like, yeah, it was like sort of heads up and yeah, people just going about their biz. So it was really strange coming back to China and everyone has a smartphone here and then seeing everyone sort of burying them again.

Tommy: Was there any big brands that you could see? Stores that sell big brands?

Chris: Um, so, um, we got to go to a sort of department store, like a big supermarket essentially, and we weren't allowed to take photos in there because they did have products that they're not supposed to have on account of sanctions, um, and stuff like that.

Tommy: Oh, interesting.

Josh: Naughty. And did they— is there a, is there a sense that when you're going in, do they tell you you can't talk about this after it?

Chris: Were there any sort of Or none of that, whatever you saw you could talk about really. Yeah, um, uh, Aussie Guide would like sort of advise us to like, if you really want to like ask them like, you know, the hard-hitting sort of abrupt questions, um, of our guides, like do that but build up a rapport with it first as you would with anyone really, if you want to ask them some sort of like, um, pretty confronting questions. Um, but our guides were pretty good about it. These is, um we had a guy named, um, like, in— because there was a few different groups, like, that was sort of like amalgamated, um, and sort of like split off. We were going, um, because some were longer tours than others. Um, but Mr. Lee was like, um, yeah, feel free to ask me questions if you want to ask any abrupt questions. I'm happy to answer them. I've heard them all.

Tommy: Um, any graffiti anywhere?

Chris: Not that I saw, no. No, I have read about sort of distance graffiti and defacing things, but I didn't see any, no.

Josh: And so, what was the tour company called again that you went with?

Chris: They're called Young Pioneer Tours. Yeah.

Josh: I feel like I remember seeing an article about these guys. So, these are the ones that do some pretty quirky locations. So, they go—

Chris: Yeah, yeah.

Josh: Afghanistan, Iraq, you know, some of the most dangerous places in the world.

Chris: I think their tagline is, um, places will take you to places that your mother would want you to go, or something like that.

Josh: Yeah. What was, what was it like? What was that company like? And would, having experienced this tour in North Korea, would you ever go to somewhere like Afghanistan or Iraq? Or, and was there even sort of talk within the group of people who had done those tours?

Chris: Um, so I think that sort of tour attracts sort of people who are just a bit more, you know, like sort of weird holidays. But a few people there had done like sort of odd places. Like, I met a bloke there who did an 18,000-kilometer road trip from Sweden to Istanbul and then all across Central Asia through Iran, Turkmenistan, and Estonia and stuff like that. And apparently, and yeah, Turkmenistan is one of the places Young Pioneer offers because they have like super crazy border control.. But, yeah, a few, like a lot of people there have just done, yeah, really, yeah, sort of odd sort of holidays. I mean, I'm going to Kazakhstan after this, so.

Josh: Yeah, what are you expecting from Kazakhstan? What are they known for?

Chris: Oh, look, I just find Central Asia a bit fascinating, and I sort of like love the landscape as well.

Tommy: And you love the movie Borat? And he thought—

Chris: I was like, why not? Why not?

Josh: Tommy's pulling from every part of his geographical knowledge.

Tommy: Well, I only know what's been in a movie before.

Josh: Yeah, you know more than I do anyway. And Chris, so how long are you going to be travelling for? Like, what's the plans once you get to the UK?

Chris: 7 weeks in total.

Josh: Yeah.

Chris: Yeah. So, I've got another few weeks in China. I'm going up to the Mongolian border. To some little towns up there, um, and then after that to Kazakhstan for a few weeks. Um, and I was like thinking about a side trip to Kyrgyzstan because you don't need a visa for that.

Josh: What are they known for? What do they do?

Chris: I don't know, just another, um, sort of— I don't know much about them. Yeah, um, I was sort of just gonna gauge it when I was in Kazakhstan, you know, if I— if, um, there was a lot to see, I would stay there, and if not, I'd take a bus to Bishkek, and then from there I'm going to Istanbul for a week, finishing off in a nice place, and then, you know, going to the UK.

Josh: That's awesome.

Tommy: It's interesting that, I mean, not everyone's deciding to do this kind of stuff. Did you, um, did you have to pay a higher insurance Like, you know how you're getting travel insurance? Is it—

Chris: oh, like travel insurance? Yeah, so funny about that, none of the travel insurance companies would cover me. Um, and even like Young Pioneer have a link to like their partner ones, um, like the Insure Everyone, and they wouldn't cover North Korea. But then on the, on the day we're leaving for North Korea, they have like a little information session before we all left, um, where we all met each other and stuff. Um, but you could buy, uh, travel insurance there like on the spot. So I just did that. I think it was like €40 for 5 days.

Josh: Oh, that's not bad.

Chris: Yeah, yeah, it just covers all like the basic sort of stuff, you know.

Josh: Just describe the feeling, like, you know, what were the different emotions that you felt while in North Korea from when you're on the plane to landing? What was the—

Chris: I actually caught a train in.

Josh: Oh, that's cool.

Chris: Yeah, it was an overnight train from Beijing. Yeah, it was odd because like when you catch the— because of the public holiday, we had to catch a bus over the bridge rather than take the train. And it was weird. So like we're driving the bus over this bridge, we're going over this river, and then Matt was like, "And we hit a point." It's like, "Yep, now we're in the DPRK." And you get to the other side, you know, it just seems like the other side of a river. I guess Yeah, there's— you feel like a bit of— you really feel like a fish out of water, I guess, because like culturally it is so different. Um, it's sort of quite, um, at least like when you're coming from somewhere like China and coming from living in Australia, you're so used to like, um, like people looking, uh, like and dressing really differently. You go there, like the fashion's quite homogeneous. Um, so the majority of men wear like the, um, the sort of tailored Um, do you remember like the tracksuits that Kim Jong-il used to wear?

Josh: Yeah, yeah.

Chris: Um, yeah, like those, uh, two-piece tracksuits, like them, or like the Mao suits, um, sort of North Korean style tailored suits. Um, so that's sort of like standard wear, um, and doesn't really deviate much outside of that unless they're kids. Um, so yeah, that was really different. And then like just realising like you really stick out like a sore thumb. Yeah.

Josh: Do they stamp your passport?

Chris: No, they give you a little tourist visa that's got a little stamp on it, and then at the end of it, they stamp that on your exit and take it from you and then just give you your passport back. So no, no stamps in your passport. Yeah.

Tommy: So if I want to go to North Korea tomorrow, what, like, how much am I going to have to pay to go for a 4-day tour or a 5-day tour or whatever?

Chris: So, uh, a 5-day tour, I think from memory it was about €1,200, um, which is I think like about $1,800 Australian, um, roughly. But that covers all your transport, like accommodation, um, food, um, it pretty much covers everything but a little cost, like if you want to buy extra drinks and snacks um, or like flowers to lay the statue, um, and some tips for your guides. Um, but yeah, it's pretty much all-inclusive.

Tommy: I mean, they're— I mean, $1,800, that's enough for them to put on a show, get a bunch of actors and make it look like it's all fucking legit over that side of town.

Josh: It was— did you get that vibe at all?

Chris: Not at all. Like, it would be just be so much effort. Like, it's, it's kind of, um, I think when you— if you ever go there, like, you'll kind of realise how sort of absurd the notion of like getting actors for like a metro is, because like it's just so—

Josh: have you been to Sovereign Hill? They do, yeah, I know. Um, um, yeah, so you think it's kind of absurd?

Chris: Yeah, I, I do think like I am— yeah, that sort of claim, like I can imagine like sort of some things are just, you know, a bit like put on Um, like, but yeah, like, I've just— when people claim, claiming, like, you know, people don't actually use the trains or something like that, but it's like, there's clearly people on the train, like, riding the trains, like, going to wherever they're going.

Tommy: So you reckon people have got it wrong? Like, I mean, you're a dude who's been there now. Is it wrong how it's portrayed?

Chris: I'm not sure it's wrong. I think it's just skewed. Um, and I think it's just so— it's so fun to just, like, speculate and like you hear wild and wacky shit about it and the, you know, the wildness just seems to increase, um, without any sort of— because you can't fact-check it, like you just can't. Um, so yeah, I think it just sort of runs a bit rampant. Um, and yeah, people have this notion that's super hard to like get in there, but it's actually really easy. Like you book the tour, you fill out your little visa form, and you're there.

Josh: And what's your view of North Korea?

Chris: Um, I really liked it. It was just, it was just like nothing. It was like, it's like nowhere else on Earth. It's just so bizarre. Um, and Pyongyang is beautiful, like it's so beautiful. Um, yeah, I, I really enjoyed it. I think if like anyone has sort of like the sort of curiosity to go there and you have the means, um, I would definitely recommend it.

Tommy: Did you, um, I was just thinking because I always like to try McDonald's everywhere I go around the world. Was there a Macca's?

Chris: No, there's no, no, no Macca's at all.

Josh: Um, North Korea, because you're a veggie, aren't you, Chris?

Chris: I am a veggie. I'm a vegetarian.

Josh: So what did you pick this up from the posts from his Insta? Yeah, I'm all over it. All right, so, so do you, what's the, um, you know, what, what was the food food like? How accommodating were they for you?

Chris: Um, yeah, the tour guide— the tour sort of company took care of it all. In every restaurant they go to, they understand the—

Josh: like, um, they probably fucking loved it. You're probably a cheap feed. They're like, shit, fucking protein, like, you know, beef's expensive.

Chris: It was, um, it was really, um— oh, like, one restaurant we went to, um, dog soup was an option. A few people had some dog soup. Um, And yeah, no, it was lovely. Like, it was lots of, um, like lots of cold pickles and noodles and lots of like, uh, rice and tofu. And like, really, um, I hadn't sort of like spiced and flavoured like that before. It was really lovely, it was really nice.

Tommy: Interesting. Yeah, I just can't help but think like, I, I mean, people are looking at a dictatorship and they think maybe there is some things that they've got right here. It's not like it's a good system, but they know there is people that look at it and go like the whole bit of order, but yeah, the order.

Chris: And I just think, um, people are sort of conflating, you know, a poor political system with, you know, a poor standard of living or something like that. Um, I mean, there was famines in the '90s and stuff like that, but like, yeah, it's a, you know, um, and there was, there was a time where your food or anything.

Josh: Yeah, and there was a time when North Korea was sort of economically doing really well even compared to, to the South.

Chris: Yeah, so I guess after the, um, just after the, after the war, um, yeah, North Korea was far, you know, outpacing South Korea. Um, and yeah, so sort of after the USSR collapsed, um, and this sort of North Korea lost a lot of its funding and things like that. Yeah, it lost a lot. It's less trade and all that. And sort of stagnated, um, was— yeah.

Josh: And so the, the, um, the tour guides and talking to different people, were they saying, uh, were they commenting on this, you know, the, the peninsula— sorry, the, the Korean Peninsula summit and all that sort of thing? Were there— was there—

Chris: it was like sort of all over the news there. Um, and yeah, I mean, um, they were like sort of having some sort of deep chats with the other guys, with the Korean guys who were talking to our guys, you know, talking about like, you know, sort of reunification and the talks and everything. Sort of like, it was a very sort of, um, really like sort of hopeful sort of like kind of chats.

Tommy: And yeah, yeah, yeah, cries for help.

Josh: It could have been seen as, and it—

Tommy: help us, help us, we're in a dictatorship, get us out of there.

Josh: I reckon it's really interesting.

Chris: It's hard to quite, they're quite proud, the Koreans that we met, like they're quite proud of their city and their achievements and everything. So I think it's less more of a cry for help, it's more like, yeah, I don't think they see themselves as sort of like, you know, like—

Josh: They're not trapped.

Chris: It's like North Korea, like turning to as the Bible. I think they're seeing it as more like, yeah, let's do this, like, yeah, other than being like, oh my God, please help us. Yeah. Um, but then again, I, like, like I said, like, this is just my vibe that I got as someone who went there for a few days.

Tommy: So obviously, but maybe it is, you know, like all that people who were there, they don't know any different. It's only until you know how different it can be for yourself.

Josh: Well, it's like employees, you know, like, uh, versus being self-employed, right? Like sometimes we can be like, fuck, how do you do it? Like, how do people work for other people? Could never do it.

Tommy: Like, never go back.

Josh: You could never go back. But the thing is that it's like some people just fucking love it. Some people like having direction and clear order and all of that sort of shit.

Tommy: I like the comparison to people who work for somebody as being under a dictatorship.

Josh: Same, same, same, same. Anything else crazy, Chris, that you think that, you know, you, uh, would like to share or you think it would be interesting?

Tommy: We're wrapping you up.

Josh: Wrapping the whole— but you need to get all the exciting shit out.

Chris: I just think the biggest, yeah, the biggest sort of shock to me was like on May Day going through the park and like, yeah, just like really like day drunk locals just like dancing with them and like getting loose with them. It was like really weird. And yeah, like we learned a North Korean pop song and you bust that out and they would like just like love you and just like have like love heart eyes emojis.

Josh: And did they know anything about Australia?

Chris: Oh, we didn't ask because like I can't speak Korean.

Josh: Yeah, exactly.

Chris: Yeah, yeah, yeah. But it's mostly just like, you know, having to dance and being like, thank you, and like just like having cheers.

Josh: And from a sleeping arrangement point of view, did you sleep in the hotel that's sort of in that middle of the island thing?

Chris: Yes, yes, yeah, that is, um, yeah, that's where we stayed. It's a weird hotel.

Josh: Yeah, what was the vibe of the hotel? Yeah, give us a bit of insight.

Chris: It's so opulent, it's so— and it's like, um, it's like all design elements at the same time. Um, it's sort of this like really '80s chic at some points, but then like really '60s, like mid-century modern. This is, um, it's just weird, like Just so weird. Like beautiful. Like if you're into that sort of hotel aesthetic.

Josh: It's sort of Best Western vibes.

Chris: But like low-key luxurious. It was, yeah, really bizarre.

Josh: Okay, luxurious. Do they have, out of curiosity, did you look? Are they on like TripAdvisor? People leaving reviews?

Chris: Oh, the Yanggakdo Hotel?

Josh: Yeah. No idea. I don't know if it's on there. And did you get a sense— I know that people talk about things being all wired up so that, you know, you, uh, are basically being listened to all the time, surveillance. Any interesting little, uh, quirks like that that you noticed?

Chris: Look, not really. Um, yeah, no, I'd like— we kind of joked about it in the room, like, by the person I was rooming with. I was kind of like, we're just joking about, like, we just assume were being watched.

Josh: Yeah.

Chris: Um, but, um, yeah, it's just like a— it's just like a really sort of like weird, daggy '80s hotel, but like really beautiful. Um, and yeah, no, I didn't sort of get that, um, yeah, get that vibe.

Josh: One other thing that just came to mind about the— all the nuclear testing and stuff like that, it's pretty far away from Pyongyang, right? But is there— was there any concern of Or did they mention the, uh, that time?

Chris: Yeah, I mean, a few, like, um, when we went to a few sort of monuments and sites, um, you know, the tour guide, um, I just remember being like mentioning something about like, you know, under Kim Jong-un's like under the leader, they say great leader or like leader Kim Jong-un's like leadership, um, you know, now we have, you know, the world's longest range ballistic missile, um you know, to protect ourselves from, you know, American aggressors and stuff like that. And that was sort of like the first sort of explicit mention of nuclear weapons. But then we went to the DMZ, there was like lots of those, they got those really like hand-painted propaganda posters that like, yeah, they were full of sort of like sort of missiles and stuff. And I was like, crushing the US and really anti-American stuff.

Josh: It was, yeah, crazy. And where can people find, if they want to see the photos that you took, uh, when you were there?

Chris: Yeah, um, probably, um, my Instagram is, um, just @chrismoses.

Josh: Yeah.

Chris: Um, if you also like to see, um, my tour guide that I mentioned, Matt, he's— I love his feed. Um, he's @mattkulesa, K-U-E-L-E-S-A. ZA, um, and also Young Pioneer too, which I think is just @youngpioneer. Um, yeah, they're pretty good as well. Yeah, awesome. Um, yeah, yeah, from there you can just sort of like the similar accounts. If you like, like North Korea Everyday and stuff like that, which is just sort of like photos of everyday North Koreans.

Tommy: Um, I just gave you— just gave you a follow. Chris gives a follow back, right, bro?

Chris: Follow for—

Josh: we're doing a follow for follow. I'm so sorry, Chris.

Tommy: Every guest I get on, it's What was that old MySpace one?

Josh: PC for PC, there was that too.

Chris: That's it, picture.

Josh: Exactly. Yeah, awesome, mate.

Tommy: Dude, when you're back in Melbourne, we'll have to, um, he's off to the fucking UK.

Josh: He's not coming back.

Tommy: You said 7 weeks?

Josh: No, 7 weeks and then he's moving to the UK. You're moving to the UK?

Chris: Have you got any plans yet?

Josh: Fuck, awesome. What's the plan?

Chris: I don't know, see how it goes, I guess.

Josh: So good. Thanks so much for being on the Daily Talk Show. And good luck with the rest of the show.

Chris: Yeah, yeah, I appreciate it.

Josh: Awesome. Thanks, man.

Chris: Thank you. Thanks for having me.

Tommy: Interesting.

Josh: Yeah, pretty like I feel like we're not well positioned to ask the hard-hitting questions, but I also don't think Chris is necessarily the person to ask the hard-hitting questions, right?

Tommy: Yeah, 100%. And, you know, like, I don't think there is no truth to what has been put out there. And I think that they are probably have the— have it like a sh— it's not a show, but I think it's definitely like a dictatorship would create some kind of environment. Maybe like he's describing, maybe that what is what a dictatorship does. Yeah, it makes it seem like everything is fucking running smoothly because no one wants to step out of line. Then you just—

Josh: like the Daily Talk Show, like, you— no one knows the fear that I drum into you every single day. Uh, guys, if you've got an interesting guest that you think we should— if you've got a interesting contact and you think that would be a sick guest, yeah, please, um, send us an email, hi@thedailytalkshow.com, because we're always, uh, looking out. We had, uh, Craig Harper on. We've got— we've had some great guests.

Tommy: Onwards and upwards.

Josh: Yep. Today's talk show, everyone. Thanks for listening.